Religions > Atheism > Struggling to understand Christianity, a confusing religion?
| Topic: |
Religions > Atheism |
| User: |
"Carl Sagans billions" |
| Date: |
04 Nov 2007 07:38:27 PM |
| Object: |
Struggling to understand Christianity, a confusing religion? |
I struggled for a long time, trying to understand the basic
doctrines,
the core beliefs, the contradictions in Old versus New Testament,
the behavior of warrior Christians and nations, then slowly came to
understand several truths described below, which enabled me
to gradually throw off the yoke and the shackles and the blinders of
a
long childhood indoctrination in Christianity, and I was free,
forever:
1. All religions and gods are 'man' made. Made and made up
by humans. Not necessarily to deceive but as a result
of new ideas and concepts that evolved and were then
accepted as the (new) truth, the (new) philosophy of life,
the (new) gospel, the (new) 'true' religion.
2. The Christian concept and definition of a 'soul' is untenable.
Why? Evolution is a fact but nowhere in the long line of evolution
was the 'soul' (or something like the soul that makes us immortal)
suddenly inserted in a certain species at a discrete point in time.
If I assume that the soul was suddenly inserted in a living
being, e.g., 1 million years ago, we must then argue that his
or her father and mother did not have a soul. We cannot.
This means:
All living beings have a soul or no living beings have a soul. As I
don't believe a worm has a soul, I must conclude that the concept
of a soul in each human being can only be a manmade construct.
A manmade construct because we have a need to believe that
we (or at least our 'spirit' or our 'soul') will exist forever.
We fear death, we fear being gone forever.
We want to deny death, we need to believe we are immortal.
We have a need to fabricate a reason for our existence.
3. There is no heaven and hell. All religions are manmade, and
the concepts of heaven and hell are manmade. They were created
when social groups evolved culturally: To keep individual behavior
in line and within boundaries - to be beneficial to the group or to
its leaders. Heaven was a carrot, hell was the stick.
4. The Christian dogma of sin, with human beings having free choice
to obey or disobey, is untenable, as 'sin', killing, fighting, etc.,
already existed millions of years before human beings came about.
That means in the long line of evolution there was never a discrete
point where the 'first' human being suddenly had free choice to obey
or disobey. That also means the dogma of Christ's death at the cross
to atone for our sins is untenable. Human beings evolved and never
(suddenly) had free choice to obey or dis-obey (=sin).
The manmade Christian God sacrificed his son to atone for all
sins forever for all times. That brilliant idea arose from much older
pagan religions that had human sacrifices at their core. The ultimate
sacrifice for redemption was to offer up your own son, as in the
Abraham-Isaac story. That's why 'man' eventually came up with
the idea that Christ - the Son - was sacrificed by the Father and
died for all mankind.
As our species evolved over millions of years, there was
never an Adam and Eve 6000 years ago. That means Eve disobeying
God and eating from the fruit never happened. That means the 'fall'
in the garden of Eden never happened. That also means a 'fall' e.g.
a million years earlier never happened. That means the philosophy
of Christ having to die for our original sin, for us disobeying God,
has no basis in fact. Our ancestors millions of years ago did
not have the brains nor the choice to obey or disobey.
5. The Christian concept that you can only be saved by accepting
Christ as your savior is untenable. As over 4.5 billion on earth are
not Christians and don't even know about Jesus Christ,
it is illogical to assume that God automatically condemns
4.5 billion out of 6.5 billion to hell = eternal suffering.
In addition, there are over 200 billion stars in our own galaxy,
with a total of 100-200 billion other galaxies in the universe,
containing billions of inhabited planets. It is illogical to assume
that God sacrificed his son on billions of planets.
6. All religions are manmade, which explains the huge variety of
religions. Any evolving human society develops beliefs about life and
death, which then often morph into absolute beliefs and then
finally into structured beliefs = religion. That's why there are so
many religions, so many spin-offs of existing religions, and why so
many new spin-offs and denominations are created all the time,
all over the world. There are always new thinkers with new ideas,
thinkers who strongly reject the older ideas.
7. All religions and their spin-offs are manmade, and the concept of
'God' including the 'God' of Christianity, Islam and Judaism is man
made.
As nowhere in the material world we see physical acts/actions by
a 'God' on matter, there is no reason to assume that an 'immaterial'
God like the Christian God (who controls, guards, acts on matter
= interferes in our world) exists.
8. So we have to face the fact, with courage and logic, and conclude
that: GOD IS ABSENT, IS DEAD OR DOES NOT EXIST.
As I find it illogical that if an all powerful God existed, he would
decide to disappear from our material world = universe into some
other universe, or even die, i.e., disappear from all possible
universes, there is only one conclusion left:
There is no God applying material forces on or into our physical
environment.
That means all physical and chemical occurrences
can be explained (sooner or later) without having to introduce a
supernatural and 'immaterial' being capable of and actively
acting on matter. Therefore the conclusion is that (the Christian)
God does not exist and was made up.
You can only exist if you are matter or tied to matter.
You only exist if you can act upon matter. When tied to matter,
'it' can be observed, measured, etc., and thus be proven to exist.
Example:
In the tsunami near Sumatra up to 100,000 innocent children
were killed in just one hour (in total over 220,000 died).
'God' did not do it.
'Satan' did not do it.
Humans did not do it.
The earth core is cooling, forcing huge plates to move,
which occasionally rupture or fracture into earthquakes,
volcanic eruptions, etc., which then can cause terrible
natural catastrophes such as this tsunami.
Nowhere did or does the 'hand of God' act anywhere.
9. The mystery of matter and the most crucial question and
profound mystery of all
--- 'WHY WE (made of matter) EXIST' ----
does not mean we have to assume an all powerful being like the
Christian God who creates, controls, acts on matter,
and rules and monitors everything.
In the last 1000 years more and more mysteries have been explained.
In the coming thousands of years many more mysteries will be
resolved. That means religious beliefs get pushed back more and
more, away from the current simple absolute religious 'truths'
and beliefs as described in 'holy' books. Religions consist of a
mixture of man made philosophies, myths, theories,
taboos, legends, laws, remnants of pagan religions, etc.,
explanations from hundreds of years or even much longer ago,
and are being pushed back or voided by science and much
more rational explanations.
That also means a religion such as Christianity can only survive if
it develops a much better explanation and rationale for the mystery
of matter and life, and for our existence. However Christianity
cannot 're-engineer' itself. It cannot offer a science-based
explanation
of life, or even reform itself into a more rational philosophy of
life.
So it will remain an anti-scientific belief system based on fixed
explanations for life and death, made by men and women
who lived hundreds and even thousands of years ago.
The contradiction between what we learn from science and the
fixed explanations from hundreds and thousands of years ago
will grow. Christianity and other similar religions likely will
slowly disappear. The psychological human need for spirituality
will not disappear, but the dogmas and beliefs of religions such
as Christianity, Islam and Judaism will become less and less
acceptable to more and more people.
10. The core issue is a direct conflict between:
o the religious/emotional/non-scientific approach or persona and
o the scientific/rational approach or persona
Spirituality will stay in various forms, but dogmatic religions based
on ancient beliefs will slowly disappear or remain with smaller
and smaller groups of the uneducated or the un-enlightened
or the desperate or the frightened or the indoctrinated.
There may be long religious revivals and reactions but
on longer terms science and associated education
will (albeit slowly) void ancient belief systems.
However, religions can very well hang on for a long time,
despite becoming unsatisfactory to many people, e.g. if
and when there are no other enticing spiritual/social frameworks
as substitutes or replacements. For scientists that could well be
science and the wonders and beauty of the physical universe.
But the masses are poorly educated and never get enthralled
by nature, by science or scientific exploration and thought.
This basic conflict is also why so many religions, including
Christianity and Islam, in their core are so anti-science. They can
never embrace a much more rational belief system that so clearly
exposes the phallacies in their inherited belief system.
Michael M. Terra
.
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| User: "Bill M" |
|
| Title: Re: Struggling to understand Christianity, a confusing religion? |
06 Nov 2007 01:22:02 PM |
|
|
A very sound interpretation of religion and reality.
My complements.
"Carl Sagan's billions" <mm2terra@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1194226707.231457.312390@v29g2000prd.googlegroups.com...
I struggled for a long time, trying to understand the basic
doctrines,
the core beliefs, the contradictions in Old versus New Testament,
the behavior of warrior Christians and nations, then slowly came to
understand several truths described below, which enabled me
to gradually throw off the yoke and the shackles and the blinders of
a
long childhood indoctrination in Christianity, and I was free,
forever:
1. All religions and gods are 'man' made. Made and made up
by humans. Not necessarily to deceive but as a result
of new ideas and concepts that evolved and were then
accepted as the (new) truth, the (new) philosophy of life,
the (new) gospel, the (new) 'true' religion.
2. The Christian concept and definition of a 'soul' is untenable.
Why? Evolution is a fact but nowhere in the long line of evolution
was the 'soul' (or something like the soul that makes us immortal)
suddenly inserted in a certain species at a discrete point in time.
If I assume that the soul was suddenly inserted in a living
being, e.g., 1 million years ago, we must then argue that his
or her father and mother did not have a soul. We cannot.
This means:
All living beings have a soul or no living beings have a soul. As I
don't believe a worm has a soul, I must conclude that the concept
of a soul in each human being can only be a manmade construct.
A manmade construct because we have a need to believe that
we (or at least our 'spirit' or our 'soul') will exist forever.
We fear death, we fear being gone forever.
We want to deny death, we need to believe we are immortal.
We have a need to fabricate a reason for our existence.
3. There is no heaven and hell. All religions are manmade, and
the concepts of heaven and hell are manmade. They were created
when social groups evolved culturally: To keep individual behavior
in line and within boundaries - to be beneficial to the group or to
its leaders. Heaven was a carrot, hell was the stick.
4. The Christian dogma of sin, with human beings having free choice
to obey or disobey, is untenable, as 'sin', killing, fighting, etc.,
already existed millions of years before human beings came about.
That means in the long line of evolution there was never a discrete
point where the 'first' human being suddenly had free choice to obey
or disobey. That also means the dogma of Christ's death at the cross
to atone for our sins is untenable. Human beings evolved and never
(suddenly) had free choice to obey or dis-obey (=sin).
The manmade Christian God sacrificed his son to atone for all
sins forever for all times. That brilliant idea arose from much older
pagan religions that had human sacrifices at their core. The ultimate
sacrifice for redemption was to offer up your own son, as in the
Abraham-Isaac story. That's why 'man' eventually came up with
the idea that Christ - the Son - was sacrificed by the Father and
died for all mankind.
As our species evolved over millions of years, there was
never an Adam and Eve 6000 years ago. That means Eve disobeying
God and eating from the fruit never happened. That means the 'fall'
in the garden of Eden never happened. That also means a 'fall' e.g.
a million years earlier never happened. That means the philosophy
of Christ having to die for our original sin, for us disobeying God,
has no basis in fact. Our ancestors millions of years ago did
not have the brains nor the choice to obey or disobey.
5. The Christian concept that you can only be saved by accepting
Christ as your savior is untenable. As over 4.5 billion on earth are
not Christians and don't even know about Jesus Christ,
it is illogical to assume that God automatically condemns
4.5 billion out of 6.5 billion to hell = eternal suffering.
In addition, there are over 200 billion stars in our own galaxy,
with a total of 100-200 billion other galaxies in the universe,
containing billions of inhabited planets. It is illogical to assume
that God sacrificed his son on billions of planets.
6. All religions are manmade, which explains the huge variety of
religions. Any evolving human society develops beliefs about life and
death, which then often morph into absolute beliefs and then
finally into structured beliefs = religion. That's why there are so
many religions, so many spin-offs of existing religions, and why so
many new spin-offs and denominations are created all the time,
all over the world. There are always new thinkers with new ideas,
thinkers who strongly reject the older ideas.
7. All religions and their spin-offs are manmade, and the concept of
'God' including the 'God' of Christianity, Islam and Judaism is man
made.
As nowhere in the material world we see physical acts/actions by
a 'God' on matter, there is no reason to assume that an 'immaterial'
God like the Christian God (who controls, guards, acts on matter
= interferes in our world) exists.
8. So we have to face the fact, with courage and logic, and conclude
that: GOD IS ABSENT, IS DEAD OR DOES NOT EXIST.
As I find it illogical that if an all powerful God existed, he would
decide to disappear from our material world = universe into some
other universe, or even die, i.e., disappear from all possible
universes, there is only one conclusion left:
There is no God applying material forces on or into our physical
environment.
That means all physical and chemical occurrences
can be explained (sooner or later) without having to introduce a
supernatural and 'immaterial' being capable of and actively
acting on matter. Therefore the conclusion is that (the Christian)
God does not exist and was made up.
You can only exist if you are matter or tied to matter.
You only exist if you can act upon matter. When tied to matter,
'it' can be observed, measured, etc., and thus be proven to exist.
Example:
In the tsunami near Sumatra up to 100,000 innocent children
were killed in just one hour (in total over 220,000 died).
'God' did not do it.
'Satan' did not do it.
Humans did not do it.
The earth core is cooling, forcing huge plates to move,
which occasionally rupture or fracture into earthquakes,
volcanic eruptions, etc., which then can cause terrible
natural catastrophes such as this tsunami.
Nowhere did or does the 'hand of God' act anywhere.
9. The mystery of matter and the most crucial question and
profound mystery of all
--- 'WHY WE (made of matter) EXIST' ----
does not mean we have to assume an all powerful being like the
Christian God who creates, controls, acts on matter,
and rules and monitors everything.
In the last 1000 years more and more mysteries have been explained.
In the coming thousands of years many more mysteries will be
resolved. That means religious beliefs get pushed back more and
more, away from the current simple absolute religious 'truths'
and beliefs as described in 'holy' books. Religions consist of a
mixture of man made philosophies, myths, theories,
taboos, legends, laws, remnants of pagan religions, etc.,
explanations from hundreds of years or even much longer ago,
and are being pushed back or voided by science and much
more rational explanations.
That also means a religion such as Christianity can only survive if
it develops a much better explanation and rationale for the mystery
of matter and life, and for our existence. However Christianity
cannot 're-engineer' itself. It cannot offer a science-based
explanation
of life, or even reform itself into a more rational philosophy of
life.
So it will remain an anti-scientific belief system based on fixed
explanations for life and death, made by men and women
who lived hundreds and even thousands of years ago.
The contradiction between what we learn from science and the
fixed explanations from hundreds and thousands of years ago
will grow. Christianity and other similar religions likely will
slowly disappear. The psychological human need for spirituality
will not disappear, but the dogmas and beliefs of religions such
as Christianity, Islam and Judaism will become less and less
acceptable to more and more people.
10. The core issue is a direct conflict between:
o the religious/emotional/non-scientific approach or persona and
o the scientific/rational approach or persona
Spirituality will stay in various forms, but dogmatic religions based
on ancient beliefs will slowly disappear or remain with smaller
and smaller groups of the uneducated or the un-enlightened
or the desperate or the frightened or the indoctrinated.
There may be long religious revivals and reactions but
on longer terms science and associated education
will (albeit slowly) void ancient belief systems.
However, religions can very well hang on for a long time,
despite becoming unsatisfactory to many people, e.g. if
and when there are no other enticing spiritual/social frameworks
as substitutes or replacements. For scientists that could well be
science and the wonders and beauty of the physical universe.
But the masses are poorly educated and never get enthralled
by nature, by science or scientific exploration and thought.
This basic conflict is also why so many religions, including
Christianity and Islam, in their core are so anti-science. They can
never embrace a much more rational belief system that so clearly
exposes the phallacies in their inherited belief system.
Michael M. Terra
.
|
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| User: "Bitter Sweet Truth" |
|
| Title: Re: Struggling to understand Christianity, a confusing religion? |
08 Nov 2007 11:13:15 PM |
|
|
On Nov 6, 11:22 am, "Bill M" <wm...@bellsouth.net> wrote:
A very sound interpretation of religion and reality.
My complements.
"Carl Sagan's billions" <mm2te...@yahoo.com> wrote in messagenews:1194226707.231457.312390@v29g2000prd.googlegroups.com...
I struggled for a long time, trying to understand the basic
doctrines,
the core beliefs, the contradictions in Old versus New Testament,
the behavior of warrior Christians and nations, then slowly came to
understand several truths described below, which enabled me
to gradually throw off the yoke and the shackles and the blinders of
a
long childhood indoctrination in Christianity, and I was free,
forever:
1. Allreligionsand gods are 'man' made. Made and made up
by humans. Not necessarily to deceive but as a result
of new ideas and concepts that evolved and were then
accepted as the (new) truth, the (new) philosophy of life,
the (new) gospel, the (new) 'true' religion.
2. The Christian concept and definition of a 'soul' is untenable.
Why? Evolution is a fact but nowhere in the long line of evolution
was the 'soul' (or something like the soul that makes us immortal)
suddenly inserted in a certain species at a discrete point in time.
If I assume that the soul was suddenly inserted in a living
being, e.g., 1 million years ago, we must then argue that his
or her father and mother did not have a soul. We cannot.
This means:
All living beings have a soul or no living beings have a soul. As I
don't believe a worm has a soul, I must conclude that the concept
of a soul in each human being can only be a manmade construct.
A manmade construct because we have a need to believe that
we (or at least our 'spirit' or our 'soul') will exist forever.
We fear death, we fear being gone forever.
We want to deny death, we need to believe we are immortal.
We have a need to fabricate a reason for our existence.
3. There is no heaven and hell. Allreligionsare manmade, and
the concepts of heaven and hell are manmade. They were created
when social groups evolved culturally: To keep individual behavior
in line and within boundaries - to be beneficial to the group or to
its leaders. Heaven was a carrot, hell was the stick.
4. The Christian dogma of sin, with human beings having free choice
to obey or disobey, is untenable, as 'sin', killing, fighting, etc.,
already existed millions of years before human beings came about.
That means in the long line of evolution there was never a discrete
point where the 'first' human being suddenly had free choice to obey
or disobey. That also means the dogma of Christ's death at the cross
to atone for our sins is untenable. Human beings evolved and never
(suddenly) had free choice to obey or dis-obey (=sin).
The manmade Christian God sacrificed his son to atone for all
sins forever for all times. That brilliant idea arose from much older
paganreligionsthat had human sacrifices at their core. The ultimate
sacrifice for redemption was to offer up your own son, as in the
Abraham-Isaac story. That's why 'man' eventually came up with
the idea that Christ - the Son - was sacrificed by the Father and
died for all mankind.
As our species evolved over millions of years, there was
never an Adam and Eve 6000 years ago. That means Eve disobeying
God and eating from the fruit never happened. That means the 'fall'
in the garden of Eden never happened. That also means a 'fall' e.g.
a million years earlier never happened. That means the philosophy
of Christ having to die for our original sin, for us disobeying God,
has no basis in fact. Our ancestors millions of years ago did
not have the brains nor the choice to obey or disobey.
5. The Christian concept that you can only be saved by accepting
Christ as your savior is untenable. As over 4.5 billion on earth are
not Christians and don't even know about Jesus Christ,
it is illogical to assume that God automatically condemns
4.5 billion out of 6.5 billion to hell = eternal suffering.
In addition, there are over 200 billion stars in our own galaxy,
with a total of 100-200 billion other galaxies in the universe,
containing billions of inhabited planets. It is illogical to assume
that God sacrificed his son on billions of planets.
6. Allreligionsare manmade, which explains the huge variety of
religions. Any evolving human society develops beliefs about life and
death, which then often morph into absolute beliefs and then
finally into structured beliefs = religion. That's why there are so
manyreligions, so many spin-offs of existingreligions, and why so
many new spin-offs and denominations are created all the time,
all over the world. There are always new thinkers with new ideas,
thinkers who strongly reject the older ideas.
7. Allreligionsand their spin-offs are manmade, and the concept of
'God' including the 'God' of Christianity, Islam and Judaism is man
made.
As nowhere in the material world we see physical acts/actions by
a 'God' on matter, there is no reason to assume that an 'immaterial'
God like the Christian God (who controls, guards, acts on matter
= interferes in our world) exists.
8. So we have to face the fact, with courage and logic, and conclude
that: GOD IS ABSENT, IS DEAD OR DOES NOT EXIST.
As I find it illogical that if an all powerful God existed, he would
decide to disappear from our material world = universe into some
other universe, or even die, i.e., disappear from all possible
universes, there is only one conclusion left:
There is no God applying material forces on or into our physical
environment.
That means all physical and chemical occurrences
can be explained (sooner or later) without having to introduce a
supernatural and 'immaterial' being capable of and actively
acting on matter. Therefore the conclusion is that (the Christian)
God does not exist and was made up.
You can only exist if you are matter or tied to matter.
You only exist if you can act upon matter. When tied to matter,
'it' can be observed, measured, etc., and thus be proven to exist.
Example:
In the tsunami near Sumatra up to 100,000 innocent children
were killed in just one hour (in total over 220,000 died).
'God' did not do it.
'Satan' did not do it.
Humans did not do it.
The earth core is cooling, forcing huge plates to move,
which occasionally rupture or fracture into earthquakes,
volcanic eruptions, etc., which then can cause terrible
natural catastrophes such as this tsunami.
Nowhere did or does the 'hand of God' act anywhere.
9. The mystery of matter and the most crucial question and
profound mystery of all
--- 'WHY WE (made of matter) EXIST' ----
does not mean we have to assume an all powerful being like the
Christian God who creates, controls, acts on matter,
and rules and monitors everything.
In the last 1000 years more and more mysteries have been explained.
In the coming thousands of years many more mysteries will be
resolved. That means religious beliefs get pushed back more and
more, away from the current simple absolute religious 'truths'
and beliefs as described in 'holy' books. Religionsconsist of a
mixture of man made philosophies, myths, theories,
taboos, legends, laws, remnants of paganreligions, etc.,
explanations from hundreds of years or even much longer ago,
and are being pushed back or voided by science and much
more rational explanations.
That also means a religion such as Christianity can only survive if
it develops a much better explanation and rationale for the mystery
of matter and life, and for our existence. However Christianity
cannot 're-engineer' itself. It cannot offer a science-based
explanation
of life, or even reform itself into a more rational philosophy of
life.
So it will remain an anti-scientific belief system based on fixed
explanations for life and death, made by men and women
who lived hundreds and even thousands of years ago.
The contradiction between what we learn from science and the
fixed explanations from hundreds and thousands of years ago
will grow. Christianity and other similarreligionslikely will
slowly disappear. The psychological human need for spirituality
will not disappear, but the dogmas and beliefs ofreligionssuch
as Christianity, Islam and Judaism will become less and less
acceptable to more and more people.
10. The core issue is a direct conflict between:
o the religious/emotional/non-scientific approach or persona and
o the scientific/rational approach or persona
Spirituality will stay in various forms, but dogmaticreligionsbased
on ancient beliefs will slowly disappear or remain with smaller
and smaller groups of the uneducated or the un-enlightened
or the desperate or the frightened or the indoctrinated.
There may be long religious revivals and reactions but
on longer terms science and associated education
will (albeit slowly) void ancient belief systems.
However,religionscan very well hang on for a long time,
despite becoming unsatisfactory to many people, e.g. if
and when there are no other enticing spiritual/social frameworks
as substitutes or replacements. For scientists that could well be
science and the wonders and beauty of the physical universe.
But the masses are poorly educated and never get enthralled
by nature, by science or scientific exploration and thought.
This basic conflict is also why so manyreligions, including
Christianity and Islam, in their core are so anti-science. They can
never embrace a much more rational belief system that so clearly
exposes the phallacies in their inherited belief system.
Michael M. Terra- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -
Well you people are gone nuts...
Why dont you help me and define mathematical point on which so many
thing stands...??? Tell me whether a point can exist or not? Also tell
me what are Axioms in Mathamatics....???
Your science is nothing but study of what GOD has made. Most of the
things are still unknown and still being modified and in such
circumstance there is nothing like fact or final truth... I wonder how
can you conclude and base your arguments on such fragile thing called
science????
Dont brag that your human mind know everything... Think again... You
know nothing... and you need a Saviour who is Jesus Christ.
Manmade is Science... if you can, prove otherwise... !!!!
.
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| User: "Robibnikoff" |
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| Title: Re: Struggling to understand Christianity, a confusing religion? |
09 Nov 2007 11:16:00 AM |
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"Bitter Sweet Truth" <BitterSweetTruthForAll@gmail.com>
snip
Your science is nothing but study of what GOD has made.
Prove it.
--
Robyn
Resident Witchypoo
BAAWA Knight!
#1557
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| User: "Bill M" |
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| Title: Re: Struggling to understand Christianity, a confusing religion? |
09 Nov 2007 06:28:26 AM |
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"Robibnikoff" <witchypoo@broomstick.com> wrote in message
news:5pjiqpFrca9jU1@mid.individual.net...
"Bitter Sweet Truth" <BitterSweetTruthForAll@gmail.com>
snip
Your science is nothing but study of what GOD has made.
Prove it.
He can't. You either will not hear back from him or he will engage in some
obvious lies!
Robyn
Resident Witchypoo
BAAWA Knight!
#1557
.
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| User: "Michelle Malkin" |
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| Title: Re: Struggling to understand Christianity, a confusing religion? |
10 Nov 2007 05:53:04 PM |
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"Bitter Sweet Truth" <BitterSweetTruthForAll@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1194585195.243242.81380@v29g2000prd.googlegroups.com...
On Nov 6, 11:22 am, "Bill M" <wm...@bellsouth.net> wrote:
A very sound interpretation of religion and reality.
My complements.
"Carl Sagan's billions" <mm2te...@yahoo.com> wrote in
messagenews:1194226707.231457.312390@v29g2000prd.googlegroups.com...
I struggled for a long time, trying to understand the basic
doctrines,
the core beliefs, the contradictions in Old versus New Testament,
the behavior of warrior Christians and nations, then slowly came to
understand several truths described below, which enabled me
to gradually throw off the yoke and the shackles and the blinders of
a
long childhood indoctrination in Christianity, and I was free,
forever:
1. Allreligionsand gods are 'man' made. Made and made up
by humans. Not necessarily to deceive but as a result
of new ideas and concepts that evolved and were then
accepted as the (new) truth, the (new) philosophy of life,
the (new) gospel, the (new) 'true' religion.
2. The Christian concept and definition of a 'soul' is untenable.
Why? Evolution is a fact but nowhere in the long line of evolution
was the 'soul' (or something like the soul that makes us immortal)
suddenly inserted in a certain species at a discrete point in time.
If I assume that the soul was suddenly inserted in a living
being, e.g., 1 million years ago, we must then argue that his
or her father and mother did not have a soul. We cannot.
This means:
All living beings have a soul or no living beings have a soul. As I
don't believe a worm has a soul, I must conclude that the concept
of a soul in each human being can only be a manmade construct.
A manmade construct because we have a need to believe that
we (or at least our 'spirit' or our 'soul') will exist forever.
We fear death, we fear being gone forever.
We want to deny death, we need to believe we are immortal.
We have a need to fabricate a reason for our existence.
3. There is no heaven and hell. Allreligionsare manmade, and
the concepts of heaven and hell are manmade. They were created
when social groups evolved culturally: To keep individual behavior
in line and within boundaries - to be beneficial to the group or to
its leaders. Heaven was a carrot, hell was the stick.
4. The Christian dogma of sin, with human beings having free choice
to obey or disobey, is untenable, as 'sin', killing, fighting, etc.,
already existed millions of years before human beings came about.
That means in the long line of evolution there was never a discrete
point where the 'first' human being suddenly had free choice to obey
or disobey. That also means the dogma of Christ's death at the cross
to atone for our sins is untenable. Human beings evolved and never
(suddenly) had free choice to obey or dis-obey (=sin).
The manmade Christian God sacrificed his son to atone for all
sins forever for all times. That brilliant idea arose from much older
paganreligionsthat had human sacrifices at their core. The ultimate
sacrifice for redemption was to offer up your own son, as in the
Abraham-Isaac story. That's why 'man' eventually came up with
the idea that Christ - the Son - was sacrificed by the Father and
died for all mankind.
As our species evolved over millions of years, there was
never an Adam and Eve 6000 years ago. That means Eve disobeying
God and eating from the fruit never happened. That means the 'fall'
in the garden of Eden never happened. That also means a 'fall' e.g.
a million years earlier never happened. That means the philosophy
of Christ having to die for our original sin, for us disobeying God,
has no basis in fact. Our ancestors millions of years ago did
not have the brains nor the choice to obey or disobey.
5. The Christian concept that you can only be saved by accepting
Christ as your savior is untenable. As over 4.5 billion on earth are
not Christians and don't even know about Jesus Christ,
it is illogical to assume that God automatically condemns
4.5 billion out of 6.5 billion to hell = eternal suffering.
In addition, there are over 200 billion stars in our own galaxy,
with a total of 100-200 billion other galaxies in the universe,
containing billions of inhabited planets. It is illogical to assume
that God sacrificed his son on billions of planets.
6. Allreligionsare manmade, which explains the huge variety of
religions. Any evolving human society develops beliefs about life and
death, which then often morph into absolute beliefs and then
finally into structured beliefs = religion. That's why there are so
manyreligions, so many spin-offs of existingreligions, and why so
many new spin-offs and denominations are created all the time,
all over the world. There are always new thinkers with new ideas,
thinkers who strongly reject the older ideas.
7. Allreligionsand their spin-offs are manmade, and the concept of
'God' including the 'God' of Christianity, Islam and Judaism is man
made.
As nowhere in the material world we see physical acts/actions by
a 'God' on matter, there is no reason to assume that an 'immaterial'
God like the Christian God (who controls, guards, acts on matter
= interferes in our world) exists.
8. So we have to face the fact, with courage and logic, and conclude
that: GOD IS ABSENT, IS DEAD OR DOES NOT EXIST.
As I find it illogical that if an all powerful God existed, he would
decide to disappear from our material world = universe into some
other universe, or even die, i.e., disappear from all possible
universes, there is only one conclusion left:
There is no God applying material forces on or into our physical
environment.
That means all physical and chemical occurrences
can be explained (sooner or later) without having to introduce a
supernatural and 'immaterial' being capable of and actively
acting on matter. Therefore the conclusion is that (the Christian)
God does not exist and was made up.
You can only exist if you are matter or tied to matter.
You only exist if you can act upon matter. When tied to matter,
'it' can be observed, measured, etc., and thus be proven to exist.
Example:
In the tsunami near Sumatra up to 100,000 innocent children
were killed in just one hour (in total over 220,000 died).
'God' did not do it.
'Satan' did not do it.
Humans did not do it.
The earth core is cooling, forcing huge plates to move,
which occasionally rupture or fracture into earthquakes,
volcanic eruptions, etc., which then can cause terrible
natural catastrophes such as this tsunami.
Nowhere did or does the 'hand of God' act anywhere.
9. The mystery of matter and the most crucial question and
profound mystery of all
--- 'WHY WE (made of matter) EXIST' ----
does not mean we have to assume an all powerful being like the
Christian God who creates, controls, acts on matter,
and rules and monitors everything.
In the last 1000 years more and more mysteries have been explained.
In the coming thousands of years many more mysteries will be
resolved. That means religious beliefs get pushed back more and
more, away from the current simple absolute religious 'truths'
and beliefs as described in 'holy' books. Religionsconsist of a
mixture of man made philosophies, myths, theories,
taboos, legends, laws, remnants of paganreligions, etc.,
explanations from hundreds of years or even much longer ago,
and are being pushed back or voided by science and much
more rational explanations.
That also means a religion such as Christianity can only survive if
it develops a much better explanation and rationale for the mystery
of matter and life, and for our existence. However Christianity
cannot 're-engineer' itself. It cannot offer a science-based
explanation
of life, or even reform itself into a more rational philosophy of
life.
So it will remain an anti-scientific belief system based on fixed
explanations for life and death, made by men and women
who lived hundreds and even thousands of years ago.
The contradiction between what we learn from science and the
fixed explanations from hundreds and thousands of years ago
will grow. Christianity and other similarreligionslikely will
slowly disappear. The psychological human need for spirituality
will not disappear, but the dogmas and beliefs ofreligionssuch
as Christianity, Islam and Judaism will become less and less
acceptable to more and more people.
10. The core issue is a direct conflict between:
o the religious/emotional/non-scientific approach or persona and
o the scientific/rational approach or persona
Spirituality will stay in various forms, but dogmaticreligionsbased
on ancient beliefs will slowly disappear or remain with smaller
and smaller groups of the uneducated or the un-enlightened
or the desperate or the frightened or the indoctrinated.
There may be long religious revivals and reactions but
on longer terms science and associated education
will (albeit slowly) void ancient belief systems.
However,religionscan very well hang on for a long time,
despite becoming unsatisfactory to many people, e.g. if
and when there are no other enticing spiritual/social frameworks
as substitutes or replacements. For scientists that could well be
science and the wonders and beauty of the physical universe.
But the masses are poorly educated and never get enthralled
by nature, by science or scientific exploration and thought.
This basic conflict is also why so manyreligions, including
Christianity and Islam, in their core are so anti-science. They can
never embrace a much more rational belief system that so clearly
exposes the phallacies in their inherited belief system.
Michael M. Terra- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -
Well you people are gone nuts...
And, you are getting very rude which solves nothing.
Why dont you help me and define mathematical point on which so many
thing stands...??? Tell me whether a point can exist or not? Also tell
me what are Axioms in Mathamatics....???
You haven't crossposted to any math newsgroups, so
stick to the subject.
Your science is nothing but study of what GOD has made. Most of the
things are still unknown and still being modified and in such
circumstance there is nothing like fact or final truth... I wonder how
can you conclude and base your arguments on such fragile thing called
science????
Just as we can't understand why you would base
your own conclusions on nothing but faith which
proves nothing but that you are very gullible.
Dont brag that your human mind know everything... Think again... You
know nothing... and you need a Saviour who is Jesus Christ.
No one has bragged that any human mind knows
everything. That's your own conclusion. You really
are a very silly person, trying to tell us what we do
and should believe. Who died and left you your God?
In fact, if your God really existed, it would be
smiting the hell out of you right now.
Manmade is Science... if you can, prove otherwise... !!!!
Please provide evidence that your God or your
Jesus ever existed without using your bible which
is only proof of itself and nothing else. And, don't
get nasty about it as you already have. You make
assumptions that you don't or can't back up.
Getting snarly about it won't help you.
.
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| User: "skyeyes" |
|
| Title: Re: Struggling to understand Christianity, a confusing religion? |
09 Nov 2007 12:33:04 PM |
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|
On Nov 8, 10:13 pm, Bitter Sweet Truth
<BitterSweetTruthFor...@gmail.com> wrote:
Well you people are gone nuts...
Pot. Kettle. Black.
Why dont you help me and define mathematical point on which so many
thing stands...???
Huh...? Speak English, please.
Tell me whether a point can exist or not? Also tell
me what are Axioms in Mathamatics....???
What does this have to do with the price of tea in China? Do you
think that the fact that mathematics works a certain way means there's
a god? How so? Please be specific. Lay out your argument. Show
your work.
Your science is nothing but study of what GOD has made.
Please present objective evidence that *any* god exists. Put it here:
*
*
*
*
*
*
*
*
*
*
*
*
*
*
*
*
Unless and until you can do that, you're just spouting crap.
Most of the
things are still unknown and still being modified and in such
circumstance there is nothing like fact or final truth...
Yes, everything, including the universe and all species of life, are
constantly evolving. Nice to see a theist admit that.
While I agree that there is no such thing as "final truth," *fact* is
easily demonstrable. Gravity is a fact. You can easily test it by
holding up a bowling ball at shoulder-height and dropping it on your
foot. Or by stepping off a 20-story building. Gravity is a *fact*,
as are many other things, like evolution and electromagnetism.
I strongly suggest you take a *real* science course, or at the very
least, crack a science textbook on your own time.
I wonder how
can you conclude and base your arguments on such fragile thing called
science????
Science? Fragile? <Dies laughing>
Dont brag that your human mind know everything...
Oh, lambchop, rationalists *don't* claim to know everything. Theists
are the ones who claim that they know everything, including what an
unprovable, unknowable, unfindable "god" wants. Scientists and
rationalists just have a good way of getting at facts.
I say again, you'd profit mightily from taking a *real* science
class. If you do that, you'll learn what science actual *is*, instead
of just parroting what the fundies like to *claim* science is.
Think again... You
know nothing... and you need a Saviour who is Jesus Christ.
Please provide evidence that there's anything humans need to be saved
*from*. Put it here:
*
*
*
*
*
*
*
*
*
*
*
*
*
*
Please provide evidence that such a thing as the "soul" actually
exists. Put it here:
*
*
*
*
*
*
*
*
*
*
*
*
*
Manmade is Science... if you can, prove otherwise... !!!!
Yes, science is a method, devised by humans, of getting at the facts
of how the physical universe works. It's a damn good method too -
it's given us vaccines, computers, internal combustion engines, space
flight, and a host of other good things. Religion, on the other hand
has given us superstition, fear, ignorance, and thought-control.
I'll take science any day of the week, thanks.
Brenda Nelson, A.A.#34
EAC Professor of Feline Thermometrics and Cat-Herding
skyeyes at dakotacom dot net
.
|
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| User: "" |
|
| Title: Re: Struggling to understand Christianity, a confusing religion? |
09 Nov 2007 01:32:18 AM |
|
|
On Nov 9, 1:13 pm, Bitter Sweet Truth
<BitterSweetTruthFor...@gmail.com> wrote:
On Nov 6, 11:22 am, "Bill M" <wm...@bellsouth.net> wrote:
A very sound interpretation of religion and reality.
My complements.
"Carl Sagan's billions" <mm2te...@yahoo.com> wrote in messagenews:1194226707.231457.312390@v29g2000prd.googlegroups.com...
I struggled for a long time, trying to understand the basic
doctrines,
the core beliefs, the contradictions in Old versus New Testament,
the behavior of warrior Christians and nations, then slowly came to
understand several truths described below, which enabled me
to gradually throw off the yoke and the shackles and the blinders of
a
long childhood indoctrination in Christianity, and I was free,
forever:
1. Allreligionsand gods are 'man' made. Made and made up
by humans. Not necessarily to deceive but as a result
of new ideas and concepts that evolved and were then
accepted as the (new) truth, the (new) philosophy of life,
the (new) gospel, the (new) 'true' religion.
2. The Christian concept and definition of a 'soul' is untenable.
Why? Evolution is a fact but nowhere in the long line of evolution
was the 'soul' (or something like the soul that makes us immortal)
suddenly inserted in a certain species at a discrete point in time.
If I assume that the soul was suddenly inserted in a living
being, e.g., 1 million years ago, we must then argue that his
or her father and mother did not have a soul. We cannot.
This means:
All living beings have a soul or no living beings have a soul. As I
don't believe a worm has a soul, I must conclude that the concept
of a soul in each human being can only be a manmade construct.
A manmade construct because we have a need to believe that
we (or at least our 'spirit' or our 'soul') will exist forever.
We fear death, we fear being gone forever.
We want to deny death, we need to believe we are immortal.
We have a need to fabricate a reason for our existence.
3. There is no heaven and hell. Allreligionsare manmade, and
the concepts of heaven and hell are manmade. They were created
when social groups evolved culturally: To keep individual behavior
in line and within boundaries - to be beneficial to the group or to
its leaders. Heaven was a carrot, hell was the stick.
4. The Christian dogma of sin, with human beings having free choice
to obey or disobey, is untenable, as 'sin', killing, fighting, etc.,
already existed millions of years before human beings came about.
That means in the long line of evolution there was never a discrete
point where the 'first' human being suddenly had free choice to obey
or disobey. That also means the dogma of Christ's death at the cross
to atone for our sins is untenable. Human beings evolved and never
(suddenly) had free choice to obey or dis-obey (=sin).
The manmade Christian God sacrificed his son to atone for all
sins forever for all times. That brilliant idea arose from much older
paganreligionsthat had human sacrifices at their core. The ultimate
sacrifice for redemption was to offer up your own son, as in the
Abraham-Isaac story. That's why 'man' eventually came up with
the idea that Christ - the Son - was sacrificed by the Father and
died for all mankind.
As our species evolved over millions of years, there was
never an Adam and Eve 6000 years ago. That means Eve disobeying
God and eating from the fruit never happened. That means the 'fall'
in the garden of Eden never happened. That also means a 'fall' e.g.
a million years earlier never happened. That means the philosophy
of Christ having to die for our original sin, for us disobeying God,
has no basis in fact. Our ancestors millions of years ago did
not have the brains nor the choice to obey or disobey.
5. The Christian concept that you can only be saved by accepting
Christ as your savior is untenable. As over 4.5 billion on earth are
not Christians and don't even know about Jesus Christ,
it is illogical to assume that God automatically condemns
4.5 billion out of 6.5 billion to hell = eternal suffering.
In addition, there are over 200 billion stars in our own galaxy,
with a total of 100-200 billion other galaxies in the universe,
containing billions of inhabited planets. It is illogical to assume
that God sacrificed his son on billions of planets.
6. Allreligionsare manmade, which explains the huge variety of
religions. Any evolving human society develops beliefs about life and
death, which then often morph into absolute beliefs and then
finally into structured beliefs = religion. That's why there are so
manyreligions, so many spin-offs of existingreligions, and why so
many new spin-offs and denominations are created all the time,
all over the world. There are always new thinkers with new ideas,
thinkers who strongly reject the older ideas.
7. Allreligionsand their spin-offs are manmade, and the concept of
'God' including the 'God' of Christianity, Islam and Judaism is man
made.
As nowhere in the material world we see physical acts/actions by
a 'God' on matter, there is no reason to assume that an 'immaterial'
God like the Christian God (who controls, guards, acts on matter
= interferes in our world) exists.
8. So we have to face the fact, with courage and logic, and conclude
that: GOD IS ABSENT, IS DEAD OR DOES NOT EXIST.
As I find it illogical that if an all powerful God existed, he would
decide to disappear from our material world = universe into some
other universe, or even die, i.e., disappear from all possible
universes, there is only one conclusion left:
There is no God applying material forces on or into our physical
environment.
That means all physical and chemical occurrences
can be explained (sooner or later) without having to introduce a
supernatural and 'immaterial' being capable of and actively
acting on matter. Therefore the conclusion is that (the Christian)
God does not exist and was made up.
You can only exist if you are matter or tied to matter.
You only exist if you can act upon matter. When tied to matter,
'it' can be observed, measured, etc., and thus be proven to exist.
Example:
In the tsunami near Sumatra up to 100,000 innocent children
were killed in just one hour (in total over 220,000 died).
'God' did not do it.
'Satan' did not do it.
Humans did not do it.
The earth core is cooling, forcing huge plates to move,
which occasionally rupture or fracture into earthquakes,
volcanic eruptions, etc., which then can cause terrible
natural catastrophes such as this tsunami.
Nowhere did or does the 'hand of God' act anywhere.
9. The mystery of matter and the most crucial question and
profound mystery of all
--- 'WHY WE (made of matter) EXIST' ----
does not mean we have to assume an all powerful being like the
Christian God who creates, controls, acts on matter,
and rules and monitors everything.
In the last 1000 years more and more mysteries have been explained.
In the coming thousands of years many more mysteries will be
resolved. That means religious beliefs get pushed back more and
more, away from the current simple absolute religious 'truths'
and beliefs as described in 'holy' books. Religionsconsist of a
mixture of man made philosophies, myths, theories,
taboos, legends, laws, remnants of paganreligions, etc.,
explanations from hundreds of years or even much longer ago,
and are being pushed back or voided by science and much
more rational explanations.
That also means a religion such as Christianity can only survive if
it develops a much better explanation and rationale for the mystery
of matter and life, and for our existence. However Christianity
cannot 're-engineer' itself. It cannot offer a science-based
explanation
of life, or even reform itself into a more rational philosophy of
life.
So it will remain an anti-scientific belief system based on fixed
explanations for life and death, made by men and women
who lived hundreds and even thousands of years ago.
The contradiction between what we learn from science and the
fixed explanations from hundreds and thousands of years ago
will grow. Christianity and other similarreligionslikely will
slowly disappear. The psychological human need for spirituality
will not disappear, but the dogmas and beliefs ofreligionssuch
as Christianity, Islam and Judaism will become less and less
acceptable to more and more people.
10. The core issue is a direct conflict between:
o the religious/emotional/non-scientific approach or persona and
o the scientific/rational approach or persona
Spirituality will stay in various forms, but dogmaticreligionsbased
on ancient beliefs will slowly disappear or remain with smaller
and smaller groups of the uneducated or the un-enlightened
or the desperate or the frightened or the indoctrinated.
There may be long religious revivals and reactions but
on longer terms science and associated education
will (albeit slowly) void ancient belief systems.
However,religionscan very well hang on for a long time,
despite becoming unsatisfactory to many people, e.g. if
and when there are no other enticing spiritual/social frameworks
as substitutes or replacements. For scientists that could well be
science and the wonders and beauty of the physical universe.
But the masses are poorly educated and never get enthralled
by nature, by science or scientific exploration and thought.
This basic conflict is also why so manyreligions, including
Christianity and Islam, in their core are so anti-science. They can
never embrace a much more rational belief system that so clearly
exposes the phallacies in their inherited belief system.
Michael M. Terra- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -
Well you people are gone nuts...
Why dont you help me and define mathematical point on which so many
thing stands...??? Tell me whether a point can exist or not? Also tell
me what are Axioms in Mathamatics....???
Your science is nothing but study of what GOD has made. Most of the
things are still unknown and still being modified and in such
circumstance there is nothing like fact or final truth... I wonder how
can you conclude and base your arguments on such fragile thing called
science????
Dont brag that your human mind know everything... Think again... You
know nothing... and you need a Saviour who is Jesus Christ.
Manmade is Science... if you can, prove otherwise... !!!!
You are bitter because what Carl wrote had exposed the base of your
believe.
Sweet because the true in the science is what human being is going
through....not invented stories.
Truth is what you are trying to deny. But truth itself is undeniable.
The data and results of science can be true if correct, but of course
can be false if not correct.
The scientific community has no qualms about truth.
The bigot like you have lots of qualms about truth.
For invented story you took it to be true......you lying loon.
What saviour you are talking about? Man have sins? Who created sins
then? Come on, tell us, tell all the people in this world......!
.
|
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|
|
| User: "" |
|
| Title: Re: Struggling to understand Christianity, a confusing religion? |
04 Nov 2007 09:21:41 PM |
|
|
On Nov 5, 9:38 am, Carl Sagan's billions <mm2te...@yahoo.com> wrote:
I struggled for a long time, trying to understand the basic
doctrines,
the core beliefs, the contradictions in Old versus New Testament,
the behavior of warrior Christians and nations, then slowly came to
understand several truths described below, which enabled me
to gradually throw off the yoke and the shackles and the blinders of
a
long childhood indoctrination in Christianity, and I was free,
forever:
1. All religions and gods are 'man' made. Made and made up
by humans. Not necessarily to deceive but as a result
of new ideas and concepts that evolved and were then
accepted as the (new) truth, the (new) philosophy of life,
the (new) gospel, the (new) 'true' religion.
2. The Christian concept and definition of a 'soul' is untenable.
Why? Evolution is a fact but nowhere in the long line of evolution
was the 'soul' (or something like the soul that makes us immortal)
suddenly inserted in a certain species at a discrete point in time.
If I assume that the soul was suddenly inserted in a living
being, e.g., 1 million years ago, we must then argue that his
or her father and mother did not have a soul. We cannot.
This means:
All living beings have a soul or no living beings have a soul. As I
don't believe a worm has a soul, I must conclude that the concept
of a soul in each human being can only be a manmade construct.
A manmade construct because we have a need to believe that
we (or at least our 'spirit' or our 'soul') will exist forever.
We fear death, we fear being gone forever.
We want to deny death, we need to believe we are immortal.
We have a need to fabricate a reason for our existence.
3. There is no heaven and hell. All religions are manmade, and
the concepts of heaven and hell are manmade. They were created
when social groups evolved culturally: To keep individual behavior
in line and within boundaries - to be beneficial to the group or to
its leaders. Heaven was a carrot, hell was the stick.
4. The Christian dogma of sin, with human beings having free choice
to obey or disobey, is untenable, as 'sin', killing, fighting, etc.,
already existed millions of years before human beings came about.
That means in the long line of evolution there was never a discrete
point where the 'first' human being suddenly had free choice to obey
or disobey. That also means the dogma of Christ's death at the cross
to atone for our sins is untenable. Human beings evolved and never
(suddenly) had free choice to obey or dis-obey (=sin).
The manmade Christian God sacrificed his son to atone for all
sins forever for all times. That brilliant idea arose from much older
pagan religions that had human sacrifices at their core. The ultimate
sacrifice for redemption was to offer up your own son, as in the
Abraham-Isaac story. That's why 'man' eventually came up with
the idea that Christ - the Son - was sacrificed by the Father and
died for all mankind.
As our species evolved over millions of years, there was
never an Adam and Eve 6000 years ago. That means Eve disobeying
God and eating from the fruit never happened. That means the 'fall'
in the garden of Eden never happened. That also means a 'fall' e.g.
a million years earlier never happened. That means the philosophy
of Christ having to die for our original sin, for us disobeying God,
has no basis in fact. Our ancestors millions of years ago did
not have the brains nor the choice to obey or disobey.
5. The Christian concept that you can only be saved by accepting
Christ as your savior is untenable. As over 4.5 billion on earth are
not Christians and don't even know about Jesus Christ,
it is illogical to assume that God automatically condemns
4.5 billion out of 6.5 billion to hell = eternal suffering.
In addition, there are over 200 billion stars in our own galaxy,
with a total of 100-200 billion other galaxies in the universe,
containing billions of inhabited planets. It is illogical to assume
that God sacrificed his son on billions of planets.
6. All religions are manmade, which explains the huge variety of
religions. Any evolving human society develops beliefs about life and
death, which then often morph into absolute beliefs and then
finally into structured beliefs = religion. That's why there are so
many religions, so many spin-offs of existing religions, and why so
many new spin-offs and denominations are created all the time,
all over the world. There are always new thinkers with new ideas,
thinkers who strongly reject the older ideas.
7. All religions and their spin-offs are manmade, and the concept of
'God' including the 'God' of Christianity, Islam and Judaism is man
made.
As nowhere in the material world we see physical acts/actions by
a 'God' on matter, there is no reason to assume that an 'immaterial'
God like the Christian God (who controls, guards, acts on matter
= interferes in our world) exists.
8. So we have to face the fact, with courage and logic, and conclude
that: GOD IS ABSENT, IS DEAD OR DOES NOT EXIST.
As I find it illogical that if an all powerful God existed, he would
decide to disappear from our material world = universe into some
other universe, or even die, i.e., disappear from all possible
universes, there is only one conclusion left:
There is no God applying material forces on or into our physical
environment.
That means all physical and chemical occurrences
can be explained (sooner or later) without having to introduce a
supernatural and 'immaterial' being capable of and actively
acting on matter. Therefore the conclusion is that (the Christian)
God does not exist and was made up.
You can only exist if you are matter or tied to matter.
You only exist if you can act upon matter. When tied to matter,
'it' can be observed, measured, etc., and thus be proven to exist.
Example:
In the tsunami near Sumatra up to 100,000 innocent children
were killed in just one hour (in total over 220,000 died).
'God' did not do it.
'Satan' did not do it.
Humans did not do it.
The earth core is cooling, forcing huge plates to move,
which occasionally rupture or fracture into earthquakes,
volcanic eruptions, etc., which then can cause terrible
natural catastrophes such as this tsunami.
Nowhere did or does the 'hand of God' act anywhere.
9. The mystery of matter and the most crucial question and
profound mystery of all
--- 'WHY WE (made of matter) EXIST' ----
does not mean we have to assume an all powerful being like the
Christian God who creates, controls, acts on matter,
and rules and monitors everything.
In the last 1000 years more and more mysteries have been explained.
In the coming thousands of years many more mysteries will be
resolved. That means religious beliefs get pushed back more and
more, away from the current simple absolute religious 'truths'
and beliefs as described in 'holy' books. Religions consist of a
mixture of man made philosophies, myths, theories,
taboos, legends, laws, remnants of pagan religions, etc.,
explanations from hundreds of years or even much longer ago,
and are being pushed back or voided by science and much
more rational explanations.
That also means a religion such as Christianity can only survive if
it develops a much better explanation and rationale for the mystery
of matter and life, and for our existence. However Christianity
cannot 're-engineer' itself. It cannot offer a science-based
explanation
of life, or even reform itself into a more rational philosophy of
life.
So it will remain an anti-scientific belief system based on fixed
explanations for life and death, made by men and women
who lived hundreds and even thousands of years ago.
The contradiction between what we learn from science and the
fixed explanations from hundreds and thousands of years ago
will grow. Christianity and other similar religions likely will
slowly disappear. The psychological human need for spirituality
will not disappear, but the dogmas and beliefs of religions such
as Christianity, Islam and Judaism will become less and less
acceptable to more and more people.
10. The core issue is a direct conflict between:
o the religious/emotional/non-scientific approach or persona and
o the scientific/rational approach or persona
Spirituality will stay in various forms, but dogmatic religions based
on ancient beliefs will slowly disappear or remain with smaller
and smaller groups of the uneducated or the un-enlightened
or the desperate or the frightened or the indoctrinated.
There may be long religious revivals and reactions but
on longer terms science and associated education
will (albeit slowly) void ancient belief systems.
However, religions can very well hang on for a long time,
despite becoming unsatisfactory to many people, e.g. if
and when there are no other enticing spiritual/social frameworks
as substitutes or replacements. For scientists that could well be
science and the wonders and beauty of the physical universe.
But the masses are poorly educated and never get enthralled
by nature, by science or scientific exploration and thought.
This basic conflict is also why so many religions, including
Christianity and Islam, in their core are so anti-science. They can
never embrace a much more rational belief system that so clearly
exposes the phallacies in their inherited belief system.
Michael M. Terra
Well, Micheal, I think you are very right in your conclusion that
deities are invented.
There is no doubt about it.
This is just common sense, althought the religious people have closed
minds.
Besides, you find, especially Christinanity/bible, is full of
fasehood.
Stories in the bible are exactly fairy tales and are very bad to the
children's mind
So, the Christianity has been indoctrinating lies into small children.
Just one simple fact: The Chrsitian god had no power to save Jesus.
The noble idea that Jesus died for the sins of human is plainly
*****.
Even the "sin of human" is invented.(Or why did god created sin for
people?)
Probably all the Western people have some sort of sin. Oh, that right,
their aggressive nature is sinful.....look at why the Red Indians in
North and South America were slaughtered....just for their land.
You tell me whether this is sin or not?
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| User: "Al Klein" |
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| Title: Re: Struggling to understand Christianity, a confusing religion? |
05 Nov 2007 12:16:23 PM |
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On Sun, 04 Nov 2007 19:21:41 -0800, wrote:
Probably all the Western people have some sort of sin. Oh, that right,
their aggressive nature is sinful.....look at why the Red Indians in
North and South America were slaughtered....just for their land.
You tell me whether this is sin or not?
No more than the "slaughtering" of the "Canaanites" by the Israelites
for "THEIR" land. If you make believe that your make-believe god
tells you to do it, it's inherently not a sin. "Obeying" the "orders"
you make your god give you can't be a sin.
--
Al at Webdingers dot com
The tendency has always been strong to believe that whatever received a name must be
an entity or being, having an independent existence of its own. And if no real entity
answering to the name could be found, men did not for that reason suppose that none
existed, but imagined that it was something peculiarly abstruse and mysterious.
- John Stuart Mill (1806-1873)
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: Struggling to understand Christianity, a confusing religion? |
09 Nov 2007 01:21:37 AM |
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On Nov 6, 2:16 am, Al Klein <ruk...@pern.invalid> wrote:
On Sun, 04 Nov 2007 19:21:41 -0800, wrote:
Probably all the Western people have some sort of sin. Oh, that right,
their aggressive nature is sinful.....look at why the Red Indians in
North and South America were slaughtered....just for their land.
You tell me whether this is sin or not?
No more than the "slaughtering" of the "Canaanites" by the Israelites
for "THEIR" land. If you make believe that your make-believe god
tells you to do it, it's inherently not a sin. "Obeying" the "orders"
you make your god give you can't be a sin.
--
Al at Webdingers dot com
The tendency has always been strong to believe that whatever received a name must be
an entity or being, having an independent existence of its own. And if no real entity
answering to the name could be found, men did not for that reason suppose that none
existed, but imagined that it was something peculiarly abstruse and mysterious.
- John Stuart Mill (1806-1873)
If what you have stated is true, those writers that put "Obeying" the
"orders of god" even more
poisoneous or evil.
As had been happening with those "orders", the Christian then carried
with them this evilness for ETERNITY.
Pls get those proud Christians today to speak or face to the
"fortunately" survived descendents of the killed innocents.
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| User: "Pastor Frank" |
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| Title: Re: Struggling to understand Christianity, a confusing religion? |
09 Nov 2007 02:48:56 PM |
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<hhyapster@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1194592897.187341.176870@q5g2000prf.googlegroups.com...
On Nov 6, 2:16 am, Al Klein <ruk...@pern.invalid> wrote:
On Sun, 04 Nov 2007 19:21:41 -0800, wrote:
Probably all the Western people have some sort of sin. Oh, that right,
their aggressive nature is sinful.....look at why the Red Indians in
North and South America were slaughtered....just for their land.
You tell me whether this is sin or not?
Not so. Natives were only declared varmint and had bounty paid for their
scalps in Protestant North America. The Catholic Spanish in South America
married native girls and used Natives as share croppers. That is why going
South of the US border you see nearly everyone having native features to
some degree. Whereas in North America you see natives mostly in the desert
and infertile regions of the continent only.
However, anyone killing or supporting any of man's inhumanity to man can
not see, nor go to heaven. Calling themselves Christians, meaning followers
of Christ and going to church in a show of piety, will only serve to
increase their utter condemnation.
--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com
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| User: "Bitter Sweet Truth" |
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| Title: Re: Struggling to understand Christianity, a confusing religion? |
08 Nov 2007 11:14:16 PM |
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you are still lost...
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| User: "JESUS WAS A COCKSUCKER!" |
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| Title: Re: Struggling to understand Christianity, a confusing religion? |
09 Nov 2007 01:39:52 PM |
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"Bitter Sweet Truth" <BitterSweetTruthForAll@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1194585256.100137.61380@t8g2000prg.googlegroups.com...
you are still lost...
hey retard-your way way way off the road.
your so damn retarded that you believe myths are real.
the only thing lost is your mind-provided that you had one to lose in the
first place.
grow a brain.
fucking retard for a dead jew on a stick.
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| User: "Robibnikoff" |
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| Title: Re: Struggling to understand Christianity, a confusing religion? |
09 Nov 2007 11:16:23 AM |
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"Bitter Sweet Truth" <BitterSweetTruthForAll@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1194585256.100137.61380@t8g2000prg.googlegroups.com...
you are still lost...
And you're a moron. Your point?
--
Robyn
Resident Witchypoo
BAAWA Knight!
#1557
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| User: "Hatter" |
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| Title: Re: Struggling to understand Christianity, a confusing religion? |
09 Nov 2007 11:43:43 AM |
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On Nov 9, 12:14 am, Bitter Sweet Truth
<BitterSweetTruthFor...@gmail.com> wrote:
you are still lost...
I sure am and confused. We atheists are confused.
We are confused that people do not actually pay attention to the
definition of agnostic as Huxley, the inventor of the term, defined
it
We are confused that more than 60 years after the atom has been
split,
that theism is the majority paradigm
We are confused how a group of people in the US that comprises 84% of
Americans, and that comprise every member of the executive branch,
every member of the judicial branch, and 96% percent of the
legislative branch, can consider themselves as oppressed
We are confused that when a great deal of the founding father weren't
Christian, and were adamantly enlightenment oriented, that people
will
also claim "This is a Christian nation, founded on Christian
principles
We are confused that people can claim "Intelligent Design" is a
science and be taught equally in schools, when it does not adhere to
scientific method.
We are confused how, after reading the Bible, with its massacres,
rape, child murders, and eternal torment, Christians can claim "God
is
Love"
We are confused that when we ask for evidence, theists will either
state "it is all around you" or "I've already shown it" or refer to a
bible passage
We are confused that a group claiming moral authority and superiority
can make such bald-faced lies.
We are confused that people come in here and make a variation on
Pascal's wager and expect us to be bowled over by their powers of
persuasion
We are confused that so many people insist disbelief is gods is a
religion
We are confused that so many people insist science is a religion
We are confused that theist the world over dismiss other belief
systems without a second thought, when their own is equally without
proof, and equally ridiculous
We are confused that theists claim atheists are arrogant, for NOT
believing that they can appeal to the creator of the universe to
break
laws for them, they get to live forever, and that the universe was
created for their benefit.
We are confused that there seem to be so many are out gunning for the
ACLU for sticking to their principles, and trying to protect them too
We are confused that Creationists exist in large numbers, when it
requires a complete abandoning of reason, and they drive to their
meetings in vehicles that require fossil fuel
We are confused how their can be bible literalist when the bible
contradicts itself
We are confused that people come in here being insulting to us, and
then act morally indignant that we treat them in kind.
We are confused that after the widespread protection of pedophiles,
that only a small percentage of people have abandoned the Catholic
hierarchy
We are confused that after studies disproving it, people still insist
there is efficacy in prayer
We are confused that people insist Hitler was an atheist, when there
is a mountain of evidence, including his own words and actions, that
he was Christian.
We are confused that theist claim intellectually superiority for
keeping an open mind, but do not believe in Voodoo or UFOs, astral
projections, mental telepathy, ESP, clairvoyance, spirit photography,
telekinetic movement, full trance mediums, the Loch Ness monster and
the theory of Atlantis.
We are confused that they will cry "Censorship" when ID is kept out
of
science classrooms, but have no problems with burning Dungeons and
Dragons game books
We are confused that they do not understand the rights of the
minority
have to be protected, and the majority does not need legal help. So
that freedom from religion in the public arena is the only way to
protect freedom of religion
But most of all, we are confused that with thousands of venues where
they would be welcomed, theists insist on posting their crap here.
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