X-No-archive: yes

Martin McPhillips wrote:

Beautifully argued, sir. However, you should understand that these
abortovorkians think in legal, not moral, terms.

That which is legal
now becomes the moral, the good, the necessary.

that since an acorn is not an oak tree, if you maliciously pound it to
smithereens with a hammer nothing has been destroyed.

you ask? Well, because they said it was nothing and destroyed it making
SURE it is now nothing. "See, we told you it's nothing," they say as
they smash the acorn into a milion pieces!

Of course, it never occurs to them why they have to go to all this
effort to destroy "nothing?"

On Thu, 01 Dec 2005 15:08:39 GMT, "Martin McPhillips"
<nospam@nospam.com> in alt.abortion with message-id
<XlEjf.22877$ek6.4137@news-wrt-01.rdc-nyc.rr.com> wrote:

No, it hasn't. And it is not a person.

Of course it's a person. There's no duality in
a human life such as person/non-person. It's
one life, one person, from conception to
death. Every inherent element of personhood
is present from conception.

The status of person is a socio-legal status and is not
reserved for
humans. A corporation is also a person.

Attila wrote:

Oh -- "born alive"! Good golly, that must be the "magic formula".

There is nothing magic about it. Any more than there is something
magic that occurs when anyone qualifies for anything based upon age.

As
opposed, I suppose, to killing them "one instant" before they were
"born alive". Which would obviously be perfectly fine. I mean that
person hasn't been "born alive" yet has it?

No, it hasn't. And it is not a person.

So if the baby has only come partially out during the birthing process
that means he hasn't been born yet because part of him is still inside
the mother? That's bunk!

When the birthing process is complete why not
just say "Well the umbilical cord is still attached to him and part of
that's still inside the mother so that means the baby's still part of
her body and she can kill him."?

Attila wrote:

"Paulo Joe Jingy" <dblizz@gmail.com> wrote:

Question: What "magic" do you suppose happens between the instant just
before a human being is born and the instant just after that human
being is born?

No magic, and no human being exists before live birth. There is a
human being after live birth just as there is a minor at 11:59PM the
day before someone is 21 and no minor one minute later.

As far as physical changes are concerned:

part of an article Bruce Forest posted
to this newsgroup in December of 1998:

And just who is he? A doctor?

cut here 8<===============================================

Birth involves far more immediate, dramatic physiological
change in the fetus than merely where the nutrients and
oxygen come from. These profound changes are a reason that I
consider birth to be an 'initiation' to air-breathing
'personhood.' For example you mention 'method of getting
nutrition and oxygen changes because of the change in
environment' Do you have any idea of the massive changes
necessary to accomplish this? Let me just address
circulation a bit, and leave the even more profound
respiratory and digestive changes for another time... I
think you'll regard birth as even more miraculous when you
understand what an amazing physiological event it is, and
what awesome changes happen at that moment!

At birth, two major events happen that radically alter fetal
hemodynamics; (1) ligation of the umbilical cord causes a
huge, though transient rise in arterial pressure, and (2) a
rise in plasma C02 and fall in blood P02 help to initiate
regular breathing.

With the first few breaths, the intrathoracic (internal
chest cavity) pressure remains low; after distension of the
airways, assuming sufficient surfactant, the pressure
quickly rises to that of an adult..(-7 to -8 mmHg). Pressure
in the pulmonary artery falls by 50%, but pressure in the
atrium immediately doubles or even triples.

In the fetus, the high resistance of the pulmonary bed (the
capillaries that exchange oxygen in the working lung) causes
most of the deoxygenated blood in the pulmonary artery to
rush into the descending aorta via a vessel present only in
the fetus called the ductus arteriosus. At birth, the first
expansion of the lungs forces all the blood in the right
ventricle into the pulmonary artery for the first time.
Furthermore, increased systemic arterial pressure actually
reverses the flow through the ductus arteriosus! Now,
neonatal blood flows from the high-pressure aorta to the low
pressure pulmonary artery.

The massive increase in the left arterial pressure would,
before birth, result in a fatal backflow of blood into the
right heart through the patent (open) foramen ovale. (An
oval opening in the atrial septum that we all have before
birth.) However, (and this is cool..) the anatomical
configuration of the foramen is such that a valvelike fold
in the left atrial wall automatically closes the foramen
(hopefully) on the first pulse of reversed blood. That
always amazes me.

The neonatal circulation changes at birth complete with
closure of the ductus arteriosus and foramen ovale, but some
minor adjustments continue for 1-2 months, until the adult
phase begins.

Fetal circulatory adaptions that disappear at birth....

Umbilical vein...Carries oxygenated blood from placenta to
fetus

Ductus venosus...Conducts about half the blood from the
umbilical vein directly to the inferior vena cava, thus
bypassing the liver

Foramen Ovale...Conveys large proportion of blood entering -
the right atrium from the inferior vena cava, through the
atrial septum and into the left atrium, thus bypassing the
lungs

Ductus Arteriosus...Conducts some blood from the pulmonary
artery to the aorta, thus bypassing the lungs

Umbilical arteries...Carry blood from the internal iliac
arteries to the placenta for reoxygenation

Immediately following birth, the umbilical vessels
constrict. The arteries close first, and if the umbilical
cord is not clamped or severed for a minute or so, blood
continues to flow from the placenta to the newborn through
the umbilical vein, adding to the newborn's blood volume.

The proximal portions of the umbilical arteries persist in
the adult as the superior vesical arteries that supply blood
to the urinary bladder. The more distal portions become
solid cords (lateral umbilical ligaments.) The umbilical
vein becomes the cordlike ligamentum teres that extends from
the umbilicus to the liver in an adult. Similarly, the
ductus venosus constricts shortly after birth and is
represented in the adult as a fibrous cord (ligamentum
venosum), which is superficially embedded in the wall of the
liver.

So, to summarize, the hemodynamics of the immediate newborn
and term fetus differ in these major ways, and many more
minor ones...ALL abruptly changing at the moment of birth:
(1) arterial and venous blood no longer mix in the atria;
(2)the vena cava now carries only deoxygenated blood into
the right atrium, where it goes into the right ventricle,
and then is pumped to the pulmonary arteries, and finally to
the pulmonary capillary bed , and ; (3) the aorta now
carries only oxygenated blood from the left heart via the
pulmonary veins for distribution to the rest of the body.
The 'pipework' is still mostly there, but what enormous
changes have taken place in a few short seconds!

So, I'd appreciate if we didn't say that the immediate
newborn and term fetus are almost identical, because they
just aren't. The digestive changes alone would be ten times
the length of this very basic circulatory primer, and the
respiratory chemistry changes at the instant of birth could
fill a book.

cut here 8<================================================

He listed as sources:

_Gray's Anatomy_ 15th Edition; 1995

_Human Anatomy and Physiology_, Second Edition, John W. Hole
jr. 1988 Wm C. Brown Co.

_Current Obstetric and Gynecologic Diagnosis and Treatment_
8th Ed, DeCherney, Pernoll 1994

Attila wrote:

On 1 Dec 2005 01:07:40 -0800, "Paulo Joe Jingy" <dblizz@gmail.com> in
alt.abortion with message-id
<1133428059.989782.192420@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com> wrote:

Attila wrote:

On 30 Nov 2005 05:58:14 -0800,

The aborted baby does not suffer depression because the aborted baby is
dead via murder.

Not if you are speaking English and talking about anywhere abortion is
legal. Murder requires an illegal component. Without this illegal
component an act can no more be murder than a hamburger can be a
hamburger without meat or a cow be a cow without four legs and bovine
DNA.

It is impossible for a legal act to be illegal - it simply cannot
happen, To talk as if it can is to dishonestly foster a lie and
deception, as well as clearly indicating the audience is too dumb to
know what is being said.

Hitler did not feel guilt / depression about his murdering millions of
people; in fact, Hitler claimed such murder was justified and he was
proud of it.

But every person killed by the Nazi government was born alive.

Oh -- "born alive"! Good golly, that must be the "magic formula".

There is nothing magic about it. Any more than there is something
magic that occurs when anyone qualifies for anything based upon age.

As
opposed, I suppose, to killing them "one instant" before they were
"born alive". Which would obviously be perfectly fine. I mean that
person hasn't been "born alive" yet has it?

No, it hasn't. And it is not a person.

So if the baby has only come partially out during the birthing process
that means he hasn't been born yet because part of him is still inside
the mother? That's bunk! When the birthing process is complete why not
just say "Well the umbilical cord is still attached to him and part of
that's still inside the mother so that means the baby's still part of
her body and she can kill him."?

Did you ever study basic biology?

Yes. But this is not a biological issue. It is a legal question.

Question: What "magic" do you suppose happens between the instant just
before a human being is born and the instant just after that human
being is born?

No magic, and no human being exists before live birth. There is a
human being after live birth just as there is a minor at 11:59PM the
day before someone is 21 and no minor one minute later.

As far as physical changes are concerned:

part of an article Bruce Forest posted
to this newsgroup in December of 1998:

And just who is he? A doctor?

cut here 8<===============================================

Birth involves far more immediate, dramatic physiological
change in the fetus than merely where the nutrients and
oxygen come from. These profound changes are a reason that I
consider birth to be an 'initiation' to air-breathing
'personhood.' For example you mention 'method of getting
nutrition and oxygen changes because of the change in
environment' Do you have any idea of the massive changes
necessary to accomplish this? Let me just address
circulation a bit, and leave the even more profound
respiratory and digestive changes for another time... I
think you'll regard birth as even more miraculous when you
understand what an amazing physiological event it is, and
what awesome changes happen at that moment!

At birth, two major events happen that radically alter fetal
hemodynamics; (1) ligation of the umbilical cord causes a
huge, though transient rise in arterial pressure, and (2) a
rise in plasma C02 and fall in blood P02 help to initiate
regular breathing.

With the first few breaths, the intrathoracic (internal
chest cavity) pressure remains low; after distension of the
airways, assuming sufficient surfactant, the pressure
quickly rises to that of an adult..(-7 to -8 mmHg). Pressure
in the pulmonary artery falls by 50%, but pressure in the
atrium immediately doubles or even triples.

In the fetus, the high resistance of the pulmonary bed (the
capillaries that exchange oxygen in the working lung) causes
most of the deoxygenated blood in the pulmonary artery to
rush into the descending aorta via a vessel present only in
the fetus called the ductus arteriosus. At birth, the first
expansion of the lungs forces all the blood in the right
ventricle into the pulmonary artery for the first time.
Furthermore, increased systemic arterial pressure actually
reverses the flow through the ductus arteriosus! Now,
neonatal blood flows from the high-pressure aorta to the low
pressure pulmonary artery.

The massive increase in the left arterial pressure would,
before birth, result in a fatal backflow of blood into the
right heart through the patent (open) foramen ovale. (An
oval opening in the atrial septum that we all have before
birth.) However, (and this is cool..) the anatomical
configuration of the foramen is such that a valvelike fold
in the left atrial wall automatically closes the foramen
(hopefully) on the first pulse of reversed blood. That
always amazes me.

The neonatal circulation changes at birth complete with
closure of the ductus arteriosus and foramen ovale, but some
minor adjustments continue for 1-2 months, until the adult
phase begins.

Fetal circulatory adaptions that disappear at birth....

Umbilical vein...Carries oxygenated blood from placenta to
fetus

Ductus venosus...Conducts about half the blood from the
umbilical vein directly to the inferior vena cava, thus
bypassing the liver

Foramen Ovale...Conveys large proportion of blood entering -
the right atrium from the inferior vena cava, through the
atrial septum and into the left atrium, thus bypassing the
lungs

Ductus Arteriosus...Conducts some blood from the pulmonary
artery to the aorta, thus bypassing the lungs

Umbilical arteries...Carry blood from the internal iliac
arteries to the placenta for reoxygenation

Immediately following birth, the umbilical vessels
constrict. The arteries close first, and if the umbilical
cord is not clamped or severed for a minute or so, blood
continues to flow from the placenta to the newborn through
the umbilical vein, adding to the newborn's blood volume.

The proximal portions of the umbilical arteries persist in
the adult as the superior vesical arteries that supply blood
to the urinary bladder. The more distal portions become
solid cords (lateral umbilical ligaments.) The umbilical
vein becomes the cordlike ligamentum teres that extends from
the umbilicus to the liver in an adult. Similarly, the
ductus venosus constricts shortly after birth and is
represented in the adult as a fibrous cord (ligamentum
venosum), which is superficially embedded in the wall of the
liver.

So, to summarize, the hemodynamics of the immediate newborn
and term fetus differ in these major ways, and many more
minor ones...ALL abruptly changing at the moment of birth:
(1) arterial and venous blood no longer mix in the atria;
(2)the vena cava now carries only deoxygenated blood into
the right atrium, where it goes into the right ventricle,
and then is pumped to the pulmonary arteries, and finally to
the pulmonary capillary bed , and ; (3) the aorta now
carries only oxygenated blood from the left heart via the
pulmonary veins for distribution to the rest of the body.
The 'pipework' is still mostly there, but what enormous
changes have taken place in a few short seconds!

So, I'd appreciate if we didn't say that the immediate
newborn and term fetus are almost identical, because they
just aren't. The digestive changes alone would be ten times
the length of this very basic circulatory primer, and the
respiratory chemistry changes at the instant of birth could
fill a book.

cut here 8<================================================

He listed as sources:

_Gray's Anatomy_ 15th Edition; 1995

_Human Anatomy and Physiology_, Second Edition, John W. Hole
jr. 1988 Wm C. Brown Co.

_Current Obstetric and Gynecologic Diagnosis and Treatment_
8th Ed, DeCherney, Pernoll 1994


Posted by Pat Winstanley <ng_wisy@yahoo.co.uk>

Of course, according to your "logic" if the Nazi government didn't
classify the "killing" of Jews as murder than it couldn't *possibly* be
murder, right?

That is correct. But they did not legally enact the proposed laws.
Plus they lost a war, and the winner always imposes his standards on
the loser.

After all "It is impossible for a legal act to be
illegal - it simply cannot happen."

The act can happen but it cannot be illegal.

Did the Nazis prosecute themselves because they "killed" Jews? (Let's
be careful and not use the word "murder", because, "It is impossible
for a legal act to be illegal - it simply cannot happen".) I don't
think they did prosecute themselves for "killing" Jews, did they?

Why should they?

Attila wrote:

On 30 Nov 2005 05:58:14 -0800,

Yang, AthD (h.c), Kicking AWOL's Cocaine Snorting ***** wrote:

Study, Abortion Does NOT Lead to Depression (Another GOP Lie)

The aborted baby does not suffer depression because the aborted baby is
dead via murder.

Not if you are speaking English and talking about anywhere abortion is
legal. Murder requires an illegal component. Without this illegal
component an act can no more be murder than a hamburger can be a
hamburger without meat or a cow be a cow without four legs and bovine
DNA.
It is impossible for a legal act to be illegal

When God says that something is illegal, man's saying that it is legal
is irrelevant.

- it simply cannot
happen, To talk as if it can is to dishonestly foster a lie and
deception, as well as clearly indicating the audience is too dumb to
know what is being said.

Hitler did not feel guilt / depression about his murdering millions of
people; in fact, Hitler claimed such murder was justified and he was
proud of it.

But every person killed by the Nazi government was born alive.

Not the babies in the womb.

Some women have published articles about how they felt depressed after
killing their babies via abortion.

THE MYTH OF POST-ABORTION TRAUMA
by Henry P David PhD

The women who have said that they suffered post-abortion depression
will be fascinated by this claim from a man who never had an abortion.

The Bible says that most sinners do not experience guilt and depression
regarding their sins.

Irrelevant. In the US religion is not a basis for forcing a course of
action or behavior on another. That is illegal. Plus that particular
source, in addition to being unsupported and unproven, is meaningless
to the majority of the world.

Then exactly what is the basis for the legal belief that murder and
stealing are wrong?

How dare the government force its morality on people who do not share
that morality!

God condemns such unrepentant sinners.

Prove any god exists.

You exist, and you didn't just appear via spontaneous generation.