Supreme Being of Existential Metaphysics



 Religions > Atheism > Supreme Being of Existential Metaphysics

LINK TO THIS PAGE  


rating :  0   |  0


  Page 1 of 11

1

 

2

 

3

 

4

 

5

 

6

 

7

 

8

 

9

 

10

 

11

 
Topic: Religions > Atheism
User: "Sweet Ol Bob SOB"
Date: 08 Apr 2005 05:01:16 PM
Object: Supreme Being of Existential Metaphysics
The main argument:
The Universe cannot be the source of its own existence because it is
mutable. Therefore there must be a Supreme Being whose Essence is
Existence who causes the Universe to exist.
To understand why the Universe cannot be the source of its own
existence consider what would be the case if it were. For the Universe
to be the source of its own existence, Existence (the act which causes
things to exist) must be part of its Essence.
Since, by assumption, Existence is part of the Essence of the
Universe, then the Universe must always be the way it is now. After
all, Existence is part of the Essence of the Universe, therefore
Existence forces the Universe to Be what it is forever. IOW, because
the Universe has Existence as part of its Essence, it cannot be
something other than that which it is.
Therefore, by assumption, the Universe is immutable. But that is not
what we observe. Physicists observe a mutable Universe. Therefore the
Universe cannot have Existence as part of its Essence, and therefore
it cannot be the source of its own existence. Therefore there must be
a Supreme Being whose Essence is Existence and is the source of the
existence of the Universe.
===
One of the surest ways to start a big argument in philosophy is for
two people to adopt different Worldviews. According to Webster, the
Worldview (aka " Weltanschauung") is
Worldview: a comprehensive conception or apprehension of the world
especially from a specific standpoint
More specifically the Worldview is the epistemological basis, plus its
supporting ontology, for your rational system. It is the set of axioms
about how you view reality. It should be obvious that if your view of
reality is fundamentally different from my view of reality, we can
never argue our points to one another even though we may adhere to
rational arguments within the framework of our separate systems.
The two most promiment Worldview can be understood in terms of
"objectivity" and "subjectivity". We call the Worldview that claims
reality is objective by the name Realism. We call the Worldview that
claims reality is subjective by the name Idealism. I do not pretend to
know everything about Worldviews so I am not going to go any further
with this. But I do know enough to point out that certain rational
systems of thought are based on an objective Realist Worldview (eg,
Physics) and some are based on a subjective Idealist Worldview (eg,
Mathematics).
Physics is based on the Worldview of Objective Realism. There is no
doubt in the mind of the Physicst that electrons actually do exist in
objective reality. If you don't believe that - if you think electrons
are subjective constructs like the tooth fairy, then you will allow
yourself to be hooked up to a high voltage source. After about 1
millisecond you will decidethat electrons are very real.
Mathematics is based on the Worldview of Subjective Idealism. There
are no such things as "numbers" in objective reality. There is no such
thing as a circle in objective reality. If you don't agree, then I
will let you connect me to a number or to a circle. I guarantee that
nothing will happen, because numbers, circles and everything in
Mathematics are subjective constructs that reside completely in the
mind of the Mathematician.
One of the most fundamental axioms of Objective Realism (aka
"Existential Realism") is the Principle of Apprehension of Being. This
is also known as the Authority of the Senses. Something exists in
objective reality precisely because there is something out there that
can affect your senses - like the shock from a high voltage source.
The Apprehension of Being - the awareness of something out there - is
very primitive. A new born infant puts his hand on a hot stove burner
and immediately becomes aware of "something out there". He does not
know what it is, but he definitely knows it is there.
This Principle is not found in Mathematics. There is no "thing out
there" in Mathematics. Everything in Mathematics is contained in your
mind, subjectively. So the very first distinction between Objective
Realism and Subjective Idealism is that Realism adopts the Principle
of Apprehension of Being, and Subjective Idealism does not. This is
critical to deciding on which Worldview you must adopt for any
particular rational system.
Next there is the Principle of Consistency. This is Aristotle's
terminology for the notion of Non-Contradiction. This principle states
that there cannot be both "A" and "Not-A" in existence at the same
time. Either "A" exists or "Not-A" exists. Remember we are talking
about things out there - what we apprehend as Being. Something can
either Be or Not-Be. It cannot both exist and not exist at the same
time.
The third fundamental principle of Existential Realism is the
Principle of Causality. In Physics we realize that without Causality
there could be no Order. The reason is simple - for you to describe
the Order inherent in something, you must connect the ojects by
Causality. If you merely describe objects without connecting them
Causally, then you cannot describe the Order they exhibit because
there is no heirarchy to provide the disctinctions needed to describe
the Order.
Try describing an atom without invoking Causality. You will not be
able to talk about the Order inherent in an atom, in which case you
are forced to describe as a glob of amorphous matter. But we know
better than that because we know that an atom is a highly ordered
entity capable of doing very ordered things, like emitting a photon of
very precise wavelength. That can happen only if an atom is Ordered,
and it can be Ordered only if there is Causality with which to create
the Order based on the heirarchy of cause and effect.
From here we move on to Metaphysics, which is the Science that
explains Being. That is what Aristotle meant by it - the Science of
Existence. But whatever it is, it is critical to realize that it is
based on Physics ("Meta-Physics", after Physics, about Physics) - and
that Physics is based on the Worldview of Existential Realism.
Assuming that you adopt the Worldview of Existential Realism, we can
now present the argument that the Supreme Being exists. In fact we
will also show that the Supreme Being *must* exist or reality would
not exist.
This argument was first given by Thomas Aquinas in his book on
Metaphysics entitled "On Being and Essence". This argument is not
taken from his religious book entitled "Summa Theologica". The famous
"five-fold ways" from the Summa are religious arguments. The arguments
we give below are based on Existential Metaphysics and not on faith.
The Universe is mutable. Not only is that intuitively obvious but it
is codified in Physics. Physics is the science which explains how
physical objects can exist at one moment and can cease to exist at
another. That's what is meant by "mutable" in Existential Metaphysics.
Mutable objects cannot be the cause of their own existence. The reason
requires some thinking, so either put away whatever is distracting you
and pay close attention - or this will go completely over your head.
There are several kinds of causes in Aristotle's Metaphysics. Here we
are talking about the "Efficient Cause", the one which is responsible
for an object to exist in an essential way. If I hit a baseball with a
bat, the bat is the efficient cause of the baseball flying thru the
air.
The baseball cannot spontaneously fly - it does not possess "Flying
Thru The Air" as part of its Essence (its Nature, its Design, its
Internal Construction, its Intrinsic Behavior, etc.). If it did
possess Flying Thru The Air as part of its Essence, then it would
always be Flying Thru The Air - it could never stop Flying Thru The
Air because that is its Nature.
Therefore in order for the baseball to Fly Thru The Air, some separate
object which possesses the Efficient Cause to make the ball Fly Thru
The Air must act on the ball - like a bat. This relationship between
the bat (Cause) and the ball Flying Thru The Air (Effect) is what we
call Causality.
The critical point here is to understand that mutable objects cannot
be the source of their own Existence, because if they were, they would
be forced for all time to be the same thing they were when they were
created.
---
Consider what it means "To Be". Don't get bogged down in what it means
to be a particular kind of being, just focus on the "Act of Being",
the "Act of Existence".
One way to do that is to consider what it means not To Be. You as a
person were once non-existent. What was it like? Of course if you did
not exist you did not have an essence therefore you can't consider
what kind of being you were not. You were not any kind of being when
you did not exist.
OK, now that you have had time to consider Being and NonBeing, do you
get the idea that there must be some kind of entity that has always
existed in order to explain how you and the whole Universe can exist?
You cannot possibly be the cause of your own existence because before
you existed, you did not exist. It would be absurd to claim that a
nonexistent could cause itself to exist.
But even if you existed for all eternity, you still cannot be the
source of your own existence or else you would always be the same kind
of being that you were for all eternity. You could not die, for
example. You could not grow, for example. But that is not how it works
- you will die one day, you did grow from an embryo to an adult.
Therefore you cannot be the source of your own existence.
The same kind of reasoning applies to the Universe as a whole. Whether
the Universe came into being at a moment in time or whether it has
always existed, it is a mutable entity and therefore cannot be the
source of its own existence. If it makes a transition to a new state,
which according to Physics it does constantly, how is this new state
going to be if it was not before? How can this new state come into
existence if it had no existence prior to its coming into existence?
---
Mutable objects cannot have Existence as part of their Essence. Their
Existence must come from a separate entity, one which is the cause of
their existence. This entity causes mutable objects to exist since
mutable objects cannot be the cause of their own existence - or else
they would not be mutable.
The entity that causes mutable objects to exist must itself possess
Existence as its Essence. It is fundamentally different from all other
entities in objective reality. It is the one and only entity that has
Existence as its Essence. If it did not have Existence as part of its
Essence, it would not be able to cause the existence of mutable
objects.
This entity that causes the existence of mutable objects does not
require a cause of its existence because IT IS EXISTENCE. That's what
is meant by saying that its Essence is Existence.
No where in this argument have I mentioned anything about this entity
other than that its Essence is Existence, because we need to have an
entity that causes the existence of mutable objects. No where have I
referred to this entity as God or Supreme Being. Therefore I have not
gone in circles, I have not begged any question.
I started with the Worldview of Existential Realism and a few of its
most fundamental axioms. Then I argued that the mutable objects of
physical reality (the Universe) could not be the cause of their own
existence. Then I argued that some entity must exist that causes these
mutable objects to exist, and that the Essence of this entity must be
Existence itself. This entity is immutable because its Essence is to
Be only one kind of entity, namely Existence. Furthermore, this entity
- called the Supreme Being - *must* exist, or else nothing in reality
would exist. The Supreme Being is known as the Necessary Being.
No real event in Physics has ever violated Causality because it is
literally built in to the laws of Physics. If Causality were violated,
all of Physics as we know it would be invalid and then we would be in
a lot of trouble because all those predicitions we made using that
invalid Physics would also be invalid. That means the world as we
lived in it was one huge lucky happening. Clearly that is absurd.
The first man to walk on the Moon or the first man to build a fission
reactor did not accomplish those tasks by blind luck. They were
carefully planned using the accurate predictions of Physics. Those
predictions were valid because it would be absurd to claim things just
happened that way. Therefore Causality is here to stay - there can be
no extension of Physics where Causality is not valid.
If you want you can claim that the reason the existence of the Supreme
Being is contained in the Worldview of Existential Realism is because
of the Order inherent in the objective world. That Order - Symmetry
-causes objective reality to be a certain kind of reality, one with
the constraints that are imposed by Existential Realism.
The Principle of Apprehension of Being, the Principle of Consistency
and the Principle of Causality all result in constraints on objective
reality. That's what separates the ordered objective world from the
chaotic subjective world. Things in objective reality are constrained
to behave in an Orderly manner - in a Symmetric manner. It is the
Supreme Being who enforces those laws because they are part of what is
meant by Existence. Existence is Ordered, Symmetric.
OK, there you have it - the argument for the necessary existence of
the Supreme Being of Existential Metaphysics. And all it required was
for you to adopt the same Worldview that scientists must adopt to be
productive, such as when they put men on the Moon and build nuclear
reactors without vaporizing half of Chicago in the process.
===
Definitions
realism: Belief that universals exist independently of the particulars
that instantiate them. Realists hold that each general term signifies
a real feature or quality, which is numerically the same in all the
things to which that term applies.
metaphysics: Branch of philosophy concerned with providing a
comprehensive account of the most general features of reality as a
whole; the study of being as such. Questions about the existence and
nature of minds, bodies, god, space, time, causality, unity, identity,
and the world are all metaphysical issues.
ontology: Branch of metaphysics concerned with identifying, in the
most general terms, the kinds of things that actually exist. Thus, the
"ontological commitments" of a philosophical position include both its
explicit assertions and its implicit presuppositions about the
existence of entities, substances, or beings of particular kinds.
The Four Causes: Causes of all four sorts are necessary elements in
any adequate account of the existence and nature of the thing,
Aristotle believed, since the absence or modification of any one of
them would result in the existence of a thing of some different sort.
Moreover, an explanation that includes all four causes completely
captures the significance and reality of the thing itself.
The material cause is the basic stuff out of which the thing is made.
The material cause of a house, for example, would include the wood,
metal, glass, and other building materials used in its construction.
All of these things belong in an explanation of the house because it
could not exist unless they were present in its composition.
The formal cause is the pattern or essence in conformity with which
these materials are assembled. Thus, the formal cause of our exemplary
house would be the sort of thing that is represented on a blueprint of
its design. This, too, is part of the explanation of the house, since
its materials would be only a pile of rubble (or a different house) if
they were not put together in this way.
The efficient cause is the agent or force immediately responsible for
bringing this matter and that form together in the production of the
thing. Thus, the efficient cause of the house would include the
carpenters, masons, plumbers, and other workers who used these
materials to build the house in accordance with the blueprint for its
construction. Clearly the house would not be what it is without their
contribution.
The final cause is the end or purpose for which a thing exists, so the
final cause of our house would be to provide shelter for human beings.
This is part of the explanation of the house's existence because it
would never have been built unless someone needed it as a place to
live.
--
Million Mom March For Gun Confiscation
http://home.houston.rr.com/rkba/mmm.html
An atheist visited Isaac Newton and noticed his new toy,
a mechanical model of the Solar System.
"Who made this?", asked the atheist.
"No one", replied Newton.
"But somebody MUST have made it - it couldn't make itself",
said the atheist.
"Why do you believe that about the model, but not about the
real thing?", asked Newton.
.

User: "Steve"

Title: Re: Supreme Being of Existential Metaphysics 08 Apr 2005 06:48:25 PM
"Sweet Ol' Bob (SOB)" <sob@sob.com> wrote in message
news:4256ff1b.33863473@news-server.houston.rr.com...

The main argument:

<snipped to save b/width>
I think you have taken a lot of space to say the universe must have had a
cause and it was that god thingy.
As someone has already pointed out.... if causality applies to everything..
what caused your god thingy ?
If the universe was created by your god thingy why did it use understandable
physical processes that we can trace back to almost the beginning... rather
than just create it "in situ" with no tell tale evidence of a "past" ? Why
is the universe so big ? - surely a coupla light years would be enuf.... n
why other stars n galaxies at all ? - they dont generally affect us so why
are they there ?
Steve
----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet News==----
http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 120,000+ Newsgroups
----= East and West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption =----
.
User: "Sweet Ol Bob SOB"

Title: Re: Supreme Being of Existential Metaphysics 08 Apr 2005 10:48:17 PM
On Sat, 9 Apr 2005 09:48:25 +1000, "Steve" <dontbother@hotmail.com>
wrote:

I think you have taken a lot of space to say the universe must have had a
cause and it was that god thingy.

Yep, I did take a lot of space. But that is what people wanted. Every
time I tried to condense the arguments, people claimed I was not
presenting any argument. With all that space I presented an argument.

As someone has already pointed out.... if causality applies to everything..
what caused your god thingy ?

That "someone" is wrong. Causality applies only to entities that do
not have Existence as part of their Essence. If Existence is part of
their essence, as it is with the Supreme Being, then there is no need
for any cause of existence. The Supreme Being is Existence.

If the universe was created by your god thingy why did it use understandable
physical processes that we can trace back to almost the beginning

You must be referring to the Big Bang or some other singularity. In
the first place the BB is not a theory, it is still an hypothesis. And
as hypotheses go, it is a pretty lousy one because it requires
Inflation to make it work. This rigging of an hypothesis is
reminiscent of the rigging done to the Ether to circumvent the
problems caused by Maxwell's Equations not being Galilean invariant.
You remember - Fizzeau contraction and all sorts of other rigging.

rather than just create it "in situ" with no tell tale evidence of a "past" ?

As mentioned in an earlier post, I believe the Universe exists
eternally.

Why is the universe so big ?

Why is the Universe so small?

surely a coupla light years would be enuf

On a planetary scale perhaps that would be enough. But on a galactic
scale, it would not be.

why other stars in galaxies at all ?

What would you have in their place?

they dont generally affect us so why are they there ?

That is completely wrong. Stars are where matter is generated. Our
planet is made out of the stuff that stars are made out of.
If it weren't for stars there would be no elements beyond the first
few on the periodic table. The Earth is abundant in iron because iron
is the pivotal element in the generation of matter in stars.
--
Million Mom March For Gun Confiscation
http://home.houston.rr.com/rkba/mmm.html
An atheist visited Isaac Newton and noticed his new toy,
a mechanical model of the Solar System.
"Who made this?", asked the atheist.
"No one", replied Newton.
"But somebody MUST have made it - it couldn't make itself",
said the atheist.
"Why do you believe that about the model, but not about the
real thing?", asked Newton.
.
User: "Steve Mading"

Title: Re: Supreme Being of Existential Metaphysics 11 Apr 2005 12:36:53 PM
On Sat, 09 Apr 2005 03:48:17 GMT, Sweet Ol' Bob (SOB) <sob@sob.com> wrote:

On Sat, 9 Apr 2005 09:48:25 +1000, "Steve" <dontbother@hotmail.com>
wrote:

I think you have taken a lot of space to say the universe must have had a
cause and it was that god thingy.


Yep, I did take a lot of space. But that is what people wanted. Every
time I tried to condense the arguments, people claimed I was not
presenting any argument. With all that space I presented an argument.

As someone has already pointed out.... if causality applies to everything..
what caused your god thingy ?


That "someone" is wrong. Causality applies only to entities that do
not have Existence as part of their Essence. If Existence is part of
their essence, as it is with the Supreme Being, then there is no need
for any cause of existence. The Supreme Being is Existence.

I am that "someone" and I also pointed out that the above argument,
which is the only way to rebut the "god needs a cause" objection, turns
the argument into a tautology.
Repeating something in more detail doesn't help when the details that
were already presented were already generating a fallacy to begin with.
.

User: "Incubus"

Title: Re: Supreme Being of Existential Metaphysics 09 Apr 2005 01:09:40 AM
Sweet Ol' Bob (SOB) wrote:

On Sat, 9 Apr 2005 09:48:25 +1000, "Steve" <dontbother@hotmail.com>
wrote:


I think you have taken a lot of space to say the universe must have had a
cause and it was that god thingy.



Yep, I did take a lot of space. But that is what people wanted. Every
time I tried to condense the arguments, people claimed I was not
presenting any argument.

You still haven't presented a logical argument. Logical argument must show
valid inference. What you write does not. What you write has been summarily
rejected due to the logical fallacy (special pleading) inherent in it that
Bertrand Russell pointed out long ago in "Why I Am Not A Christian."
The theist idea of GodŽ, the hypothetical Creator, the hypothetical First
Cause, has an inherent fatal problem (a special pleading for GodŽ) so it is
summarily rejected as logical fallacy and a waste of time, as Bertrand Russell
points out:
"I need not waste any more time upon the argument about the First Cause." --
Russell, "Why I Am Not a Christian"
http://www.stephenjaygould.org/ctrl/russell_wnc.html
"Perhaps the simplest and easiest to understand is the argument of the First
Cause. (It is maintained that everything we see in this world has a cause, and
as you go back in the chain of causes further and further you must come to a
First Cause, and to that First Cause you give the name of God.) That argument,
I suppose, does not carry very much weight nowadays, because, in the first
place, cause is not quite what it used to be. The philosophers and the men of
science have got going on cause, and it has not anything like the vitality it
used to have; but, apart from that, you can see that the argument that there
must be a First Cause is one that cannot have any validity. I may say that
when I was a young man and was debating these questions very seriously in my
mind, I for a long time accepted the argument of the First Cause, until one
day, at the age of eighteen, I read John Stuart Mill's Autobiography, and I
there found this sentence: "My father taught me that the question 'Who made
me?' cannot be answered, since it immediately suggests the further question
`Who made god?'" That very simple sentence showed me, as I still think, the
fallacy in the argument of the First Cause. If everything must have a cause,
then God must have a cause. If there can be anything without a cause, it may
just as well be the world as God, so that there cannot be any validity in that
argument. It is exactly of the same nature as the Hindu's view, that the world
rested upon an elephant and the elephant rested upon a tortoise; and when they
said, "How about the tortoise?" the Indian said, "Suppose we change the
subject." The argument is really no better than that. There is no reason why
the world could not have come into being without a cause; nor, on the other
hand, is there any reason why it should not have always existed. There is no
reason to suppose that the world had a beginning at all. The idea that things
must have a beginning is really due to the poverty of our imagination.
Therefore, perhaps, I need not waste any more time upon the argument about the
First Cause." -- Russell "Why I Am Not a Christian"
http://www.stephenjaygould.org/ctrl/russell_wnc.html
It's a very simple problem for anybody who still believes there might be a
First Cause anyway. All they have to do is come up with an argument for First
Cause that does not run into this fatal problem (special pleading) inherent in
the very idea of it, which Russell points out.
<cue the chirping crickets>
.
User: "Sweet Ol Bob SOB"

Title: Re: Supreme Being of Existential Metaphysics 09 Apr 2005 08:38:44 AM
On Fri, 08 Apr 2005 23:09:40 -0700, Incubus <Incubus@inc.net> wrote:

You still haven't presented a logical argument. Logical argument must show
valid inference. What you write does not. What you write has been summarily
rejected due to the logical fallacy (special pleading) inherent in it that
Bertrand Russell pointed out long ago in "Why I Am Not A Christian."

You can adopt Russell's take on things if you want. I don't care about
Russell or Kant or any of them.
I set out to prove the necessary existence of the Supreme Being of
Existential Metaphysics. I required the adoption of the Worldview of
Existential Realsim, the same as productive Physicists do.
There are as many opinions about reality as there are people who claim
they understand it. Russell and Kant are no exceptions. I am not going
to waste the time attempting to refute their apparent challenges
because I do not care about their challenges.
If the adoption of a Worldview is so arbitrary, then why pick any
particular one. The answer as far as I am concerned is that the
Worldview of Existential Realism at least enables you to do productive
Physics, which in turn allows you to make accurate predictions about
the outcome of certain events in the future.
How many accurate predictions about the outcome of future events have
Russell and Kant ever made? Zero.
--
Million Mom March For Gun Confiscation
http://home.houston.rr.com/rkba/mmm.html
An atheist visited Isaac Newton and noticed his new toy,
a mechanical model of the Solar System.
"Who made this?", asked the atheist.
"No one", replied Newton.
"But somebody MUST have made it - it couldn't make itself",
said the atheist.
"Why do you believe that about the model, but not about the
real thing?", asked Newton.
.
User: "chibiabos"

Title: Re: Supreme Being of Existential Metaphysics 09 Apr 2005 09:06:28 AM
In article <4257d9c6.89847013@news-server.houston.rr.com>, Sweet Ol'
Bob (SOB) <sob@sob.com> wrote:

How many accurate predictions about the outcome of future events have
Russell and Kant ever made? Zero.

So far, their predictions about the supposed existence of god have been
fairly accurate.
-chib
--
Member of S.M.A.S.H.
Sarcastic Middle-aged Atheists with a Sense of Humor
.
User: "Robert J. Kolker"

Title: Re: Supreme Being of Existential Metaphysics 09 Apr 2005 09:40:41 AM
chibiabos wrote:


So far, their predictions about the supposed existence of god have been
fairly accurate.

You have not a scrap of empricial evidence to suport that. The
predictions are untestable.
Bob Kolker
.


User: "Robert J. Kolker"

Title: Re: Supreme Being of Existential Metaphysics 09 Apr 2005 09:39:24 AM
Sweet Ol' Bob (SOB) wrote:


I set out to prove the necessary existence of the Supreme Being of
Existential Metaphysics. I required the adoption of the Worldview of
Existential Realsim, the same as productive Physicists do.

And you will fail to make that proof. The supreme being is really matter
and it does not care about you and me. We are just made of it. It makes
as much sense to believe that matter energy and motion have always existed.
Where you fail is the matter of necessity. There is no way of deducing
the kosmos we see and live in a prior. We have neither the brains, the
senses or the life-span to show such a necessity. Give it up. Settle for
empricism. What you see is what you get.
Bob Kolker
.



User: "Mike"

Title: Re: Supreme Being of Existential Metaphysics 09 Apr 2005 06:18:03 PM
["Followup-To:" header set to alt.agnosticism.]
On Sat, 09 Apr 2005 03:48:17 GMT, Sweet Ol' Bob (SOB) wrote:

That "someone" is wrong. Causality applies only to entities that do
not have Existence as part of their Essence. If Existence is part of
their essence, as it is with the Supreme Being, then there is no need
for any cause of existence. The Supreme Being is Existence.

The universe may have existence as part of its essence. Consequently, there is
no need for any cause of existence including a supreme being. The supreme
being is therefore not needed and has neither existence nor essence.
Uhm, actually we need a million person march to require every family be armed
thereby creating a universal militia much like is done in Switzerland (which
has an extremely low crime rate). In every instance where guns were removed
from private ownership, the crime rate has increased. So much so that England
is trying to back away from its gigantic mistake.
--
Mike.
.



User: "Ike"

Title: Re: Supreme Being of Existential Metaphysics 09 Apr 2005 09:25:00 AM
"Sweet Ol' Bob (SOB)" <sob@sob.com> wrote in message
news:4256ff1b.33863473@news-server.houston.rr.com...

The main argument:

The Universe cannot be the source of its own existence because it is
mutable. Therefore there must be a Supreme Being whose Essence is
Existence who causes the Universe to exist.

To understand why the Universe cannot be the source of its own
existence consider what would be the case if it were. For the Universe
to be the source of its own existence, Existence (the act which causes
things to exist) must be part of its Essence.

Since, by assumption, Existence is part of the Essence of the
Universe, then the Universe must always be the way it is now. After
all, Existence is part of the Essence of the Universe, therefore
Existence forces the Universe to Be what it is forever. IOW, because
the Universe has Existence as part of its Essence, it cannot be
something other than that which it is.

Therefore, by assumption, the Universe is immutable. But that is not
what we observe. Physicists observe a mutable Universe. Therefore the
Universe cannot have Existence as part of its Essence, and therefore
it cannot be the source of its own existence. Therefore there must be
a Supreme Being whose Essence is Existence and is the source of the
existence of the Universe.

===

Problem One: Is there really a Universe as it relates to Perception? Or are
there a Multiverse? In other words, consider the parable of the blind men
and the elephant.


One of the surest ways to start a big argument in philosophy is for
two people to adopt different Worldviews. According to Webster, the
Worldview (aka " Weltanschauung") is

Worldview: a comprehensive conception or apprehension of the world
especially from a specific standpoint

More specifically the Worldview is the epistemological basis, plus its
supporting ontology, for your rational system. It is the set of axioms
about how you view reality. It should be obvious that if your view of
reality is fundamentally different from my view of reality, we can
never argue our points to one another even though we may adhere to
rational arguments within the framework of our separate systems.

The two most promiment Worldview can be understood in terms of
"objectivity" and "subjectivity". We call the Worldview that claims
reality is objective by the name Realism. We call the Worldview that
claims reality is subjective by the name Idealism. I do not pretend to
know everything about Worldviews so I am not going to go any further
with this. But I do know enough to point out that certain rational
systems of thought are based on an objective Realist Worldview (eg,
Physics) and some are based on a subjective Idealist Worldview (eg,
Mathematics).

Physics is based on the Worldview of Objective Realism. There is no
doubt in the mind of the Physicst that electrons actually do exist in
objective reality. If you don't believe that - if you think electrons
are subjective constructs like the tooth fairy, then you will allow
yourself to be hooked up to a high voltage source. After about 1
millisecond you will decidethat electrons are very real.

Mathematics is based on the Worldview of Subjective Idealism. There
are no such things as "numbers" in objective reality. There is no such
thing as a circle in objective reality. If you don't agree, then I
will let you connect me to a number or to a circle. I guarantee that
nothing will happen, because numbers, circles and everything in
Mathematics are subjective constructs that reside completely in the
mind of the Mathematician.

One of the most fundamental axioms of Objective Realism (aka
"Existential Realism") is the Principle of Apprehension of Being. This
is also known as the Authority of the Senses. Something exists in
objective reality precisely because there is something out there that
can affect your senses - like the shock from a high voltage source.

The Apprehension of Being - the awareness of something out there - is
very primitive. A new born infant puts his hand on a hot stove burner
and immediately becomes aware of "something out there". He does not
know what it is, but he definitely knows it is there.

This Principle is not found in Mathematics. There is no "thing out
there" in Mathematics. Everything in Mathematics is contained in your
mind, subjectively. So the very first distinction between Objective
Realism and Subjective Idealism is that Realism adopts the Principle
of Apprehension of Being, and Subjective Idealism does not. This is
critical to deciding on which Worldview you must adopt for any
particular rational system.

Problem Two: The stated dichotomy between Physics and Mathematics, in
realtion to these examples, theoretically disappears if mathematical
analysis were carried far enough. Both are subjective tools for predicting
causality which is also a subjective concept. (So call me a solipsist as
though that were a refutation.)

Next there is the Principle of Consistency. This is Aristotle's
terminology for the notion of Non-Contradiction. This principle states
that there cannot be both "A" and "Not-A" in existence at the same
time. Either "A" exists or "Not-A" exists. Remember we are talking
about things out there - what we apprehend as Being. Something can
either Be or Not-Be. It cannot both exist and not exist at the same
time.

Problem Three: So he says, but existence and non-existence are both ideas of
the same thing. The thing and the idea are not the same. This has been
debated over and over again. But something can exist and not exist at the
same time, because time is a vector.

The third fundamental principle of Existential Realism is the
Principle of Causality. In Physics we realize that without Causality
there could be no Order. The reason is simple - for you to describe
the Order inherent in something, you must connect the ojects by
Causality. If you merely describe objects without connecting them
Causally, then you cannot describe the Order they exhibit because
there is no heirarchy to provide the disctinctions needed to describe
the Order.

Try describing an atom without invoking Causality. You will not be
able to talk about the Order inherent in an atom, in which case you
are forced to describe as a glob of amorphous matter. But we know
better than that because we know that an atom is a highly ordered
entity capable of doing very ordered things, like emitting a photon of
very precise wavelength. That can happen only if an atom is Ordered,
and it can be Ordered only if there is Causality with which to create
the Order based on the heirarchy of cause and effect.

From here we move on to Metaphysics, which is the Science that
explains Being. That is what Aristotle meant by it - the Science of
Existence. But whatever it is, it is critical to realize that it is
based on Physics ("Meta-Physics", after Physics, about Physics) - and
that Physics is based on the Worldview of Existential Realism.

Assuming that you adopt the Worldview of Existential Realism, we can
now present the argument that the Supreme Being exists. In fact we
will also show that the Supreme Being *must* exist or reality would
not exist.

This argument was first given by Thomas Aquinas in his book on
Metaphysics entitled "On Being and Essence". This argument is not
taken from his religious book entitled "Summa Theologica". The famous
"five-fold ways" from the Summa are religious arguments. The arguments
we give below are based on Existential Metaphysics and not on faith.

The Universe is mutable. Not only is that intuitively obvious but it
is codified in Physics. Physics is the science which explains how
physical objects can exist at one moment and can cease to exist at
another. That's what is meant by "mutable" in Existential Metaphysics.

Mutable objects cannot be the cause of their own existence. The reason
requires some thinking, so either put away whatever is distracting you
and pay close attention - or this will go completely over your head.

There are several kinds of causes in Aristotle's Metaphysics. Here we
are talking about the "Efficient Cause", the one which is responsible
for an object to exist in an essential way. If I hit a baseball with a
bat, the bat is the efficient cause of the baseball flying thru the
air.

The baseball cannot spontaneously fly - it does not possess "Flying
Thru The Air" as part of its Essence (its Nature, its Design, its
Internal Construction, its Intrinsic Behavior, etc.). If it did
possess Flying Thru The Air as part of its Essence, then it would
always be Flying Thru The Air - it could never stop Flying Thru The
Air because that is its Nature.

Therefore in order for the baseball to Fly Thru The Air, some separate
object which possesses the Efficient Cause to make the ball Fly Thru
The Air must act on the ball - like a bat. This relationship between
the bat (Cause) and the ball Flying Thru The Air (Effect) is what we
call Causality.

The critical point here is to understand that mutable objects cannot
be the source of their own Existence, because if they were, they would
be forced for all time to be the same thing they were when they were
created.

---
Consider what it means "To Be". Don't get bogged down in what it means
to be a particular kind of being, just focus on the "Act of Being",
the "Act of Existence".

One way to do that is to consider what it means not To Be. You as a
person were once non-existent. What was it like? Of course if you did
not exist you did not have an essence therefore you can't consider
what kind of being you were not. You were not any kind of being when
you did not exist.

OK, now that you have had time to consider Being and NonBeing, do you
get the idea that there must be some kind of entity that has always
existed in order to explain how you and the whole Universe can exist?

No, I can't.

You cannot possibly be the cause of your own existence because before
you existed, you did not exist. It would be absurd to claim that a
nonexistent could cause itself to exist.

Problem Four. Since Time is a Vector, how can it be proved that the moments
of my existence were discrete fom the moments of my non-existence?

But even if you existed for all eternity, you still cannot be the
source of your own existence or else you would always be the same kind
of being that you were for all eternity. You could not die, for
example. You could not grow, for example. But that is not how it works
- you will die one day, you did grow from an embryo to an adult.
Therefore you cannot be the source of your own existence.

Problem Five: How can you assume that I as an psychological entity have a
physical relationship to existence and non-existence? The embryo is a
physical object. Time is a vector that when parsed, modulates a description
of different aspects of the same phenomenon.

The same kind of reasoning applies to the Universe as a whole. Whether
the Universe came into being at a moment in time or whether it has
always existed, it is a mutable entity and therefore cannot be the
source of its own existence. If it makes a transition to a new state,
which according to Physics it does constantly, how is this new state
going to be if it was not before? How can this new state come into
existence if it had no existence prior to its coming into existence?

Problem Six: There is no proof being offered that the Universe is a discrete
Entity.
---


Mutable objects cannot have Existence as part of their Essence. Their
Existence must come from a separate entity, one which is the cause of
their existence. This entity causes mutable objects to exist since
mutable objects cannot be the cause of their own existence - or else
they would not be mutable.

Problem Seven: I ran out of time to deal with this psuedo-philosophical
argument.
--
The argument that everything had a Creator because it's too complicated, is
about as reasonable as saying that it couldn't have been created since it's
too complicated.
It's about like saying that a super flea created a dog. Then
the good fleas go to a great dog in the sky, while the bad unbelieving fleas
are scratched off into a super rug to be forever hungry. If you think dogs
weren't created by a Great Flea then you are an afleaist.
.
User: "Sweet Ol Bob SOB"

Title: Re: Supreme Being of Existential Metaphysics 09 Apr 2005 12:09:22 PM
On Sat, 09 Apr 2005 14:25:00 GMT, "Ike" <accordiondoc@mindspring.com>
wrote:

Problem One: Is there really a Universe as it relates to Perception? Or are
there a Multiverse? In other words, consider the parable of the blind men
and the elephant.
Problem Two: The stated dichotomy between Physics and Mathematics, in
realtion to these examples, theoretically disappears if mathematical
analysis were carried far enough. Both are subjective tools for predicting
causality which is also a subjective concept. (So call me a solipsist as
though that were a refutation.)
Problem Three: So he says, but existence and non-existence are both ideas of
the same thing. The thing and the idea are not the same. This has been
debated over and over again. But something can exist and not exist at the
same time, because time is a vector.
Problem Four. Since Time is a Vector, how can it be proved that the moments
of my existence were discrete fom the moments of my non-existence?
Problem Five: How can you assume that I as an psychological entity have a
physical relationship to existence and non-existence? The embryo is a
physical object. Time is a vector that when parsed, modulates a description
of different aspects of the same phenomenon.
Problem Six: There is no proof being offered that the Universe is a discrete
Entity.
Problem Seven: I ran out of time to deal with this psuedo-philosophical
argument.

That's because you wasted so much time in pseudo(sic)-philosophical
arguments.
--
Million Mom March For Gun Confiscation
http://home.houston.rr.com/rkba/mmm.html
"The reasonable man adapts himself to the world. The unreasonable
one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore
all progress depends on the unreasonable man."
-- George Bernard Shaw
.
User: "Ike"

Title: Re: Supreme Being of Existential Metaphysics 09 Apr 2005 11:36:34 PM
"Sweet Ol' Bob (SOB)" <sob@sob.com> wrote in message
news:42580b80.102576377@news-server.houston.rr.com...

On Sat, 09 Apr 2005 14:25:00 GMT, "Ike" <accordiondoc@mindspring.com>
wrote:

Problem One: Is there really a Universe as it relates to Perception? Or
are
there a Multiverse? In other words, consider the parable of the blind men
and the elephant.


Problem Two: The stated dichotomy between Physics and Mathematics, in
realtion to these examples, theoretically disappears if mathematical
analysis were carried far enough. Both are subjective tools for predicting
causality which is also a subjective concept. (So call me a solipsist as
though that were a refutation.)


Problem Three: So he says, but existence and non-existence are both ideas
of
the same thing. The thing and the idea are not the same. This has been
debated over and over again. But something can exist and not exist at the
same time, because time is a vector.


Problem Four. Since Time is a Vector, how can it be proved that the
moments
of my existence were discrete fom the moments of my non-existence?


Problem Five: How can you assume that I as an psychological entity have a
physical relationship to existence and non-existence? The embryo is a
physical object. Time is a vector that when parsed, modulates a
description
of different aspects of the same phenomenon.


Problem Six: There is no proof being offered that the Universe is a
discrete
Entity.


Problem Seven: I ran out of time to deal with this psuedo-philosophical
argument.


That's because you wasted so much time in pseudo(sic)-philosophical
arguments.

You won't address the caveats because you don't have the intellectual
capacity. All you can do is make fun of the semantics.
.
User: "Sweet Ol Bob SOB"

Title: Re: Supreme Being of Existential Metaphysics 10 Apr 2005 06:43:55 AM
On Sun, 10 Apr 2005 04:36:34 GMT, "Ike" <accordiondoc@mindspring.com>
wrote:

Problem One: Is there really a Universe as it relates to Perception? Or
are
there a Multiverse? In other words, consider the parable of the blind men
and the elephant.
Problem Two: The stated dichotomy between Physics and Mathematics, in
realtion to these examples, theoretically disappears if mathematical
analysis were carried far enough. Both are subjective tools for predicting
causality which is also a subjective concept. (So call me a solipsist as
though that were a refutation.)
Problem Three: So he says, but existence and non-existence are both ideas
of
the same thing. The thing and the idea are not the same. This has been
debated over and over again. But something can exist and not exist at the
same time, because time is a vector.
Problem Four. Since Time is a Vector, how can it be proved that the
moments
of my existence were discrete fom the moments of my non-existence?
Problem Five: How can you assume that I as an psychological entity have a
physical relationship to existence and non-existence? The embryo is a
physical object. Time is a vector that when parsed, modulates a
description
of different aspects of the same phenomenon.
Problem Six: There is no proof being offered that the Universe is a
discrete
Entity.
Problem Seven: I ran out of time to deal with this psuedo-philosophical
argument.

That's because you wasted so much time in pseudo(sic)-philosophical
arguments.

You won't address the caveats because you don't have the intellectual
capacity. All you can do is make fun of the semantics.

I won't address the caveats because none of them apply to my case. I
stated up front that you must adopt the Worldview of Existential
Realism or else I could not prove anything to you. These caveats fail
to meet that requirement, so they are irrelevant to my case.
--
Million Mom March For Gun Confiscation
http://home.houston.rr.com/rkba/mmm.html
"The reasonable man adapts himself to the world. The unreasonable
one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore
all progress depends on the unreasonable man."
-- George Bernard Shaw
.
User: "Ike"

Title: Re: Supreme Being of Existential Metaphysics 10 Apr 2005 05:09:08 PM
"Sweet Ol' Bob (SOB)" <sob@sob.com> wrote in message
news:4259111c.169553955@news-server.houston.rr.com...

On Sun, 10 Apr 2005 04:36:34 GMT, "Ike" <accordiondoc@mindspring.com>
wrote:

Problem One: Is there really a Universe as it relates to Perception? Or
are
there a Multiverse? In other words, consider the parable of the blind
men
and the elephant.


Problem Two: The stated dichotomy between Physics and Mathematics, in
realtion to these examples, theoretically disappears if mathematical
analysis were carried far enough. Both are subjective tools for
predicting
causality which is also a subjective concept. (So call me a solipsist as
though that were a refutation.)


Problem Three: So he says, but existence and non-existence are both
ideas
of
the same thing. The thing and the idea are not the same. This has been
debated over and over again. But something can exist and not exist at
the
same time, because time is a vector.


Problem Four. Since Time is a Vector, how can it be proved that the
moments
of my existence were discrete fom the moments of my non-existence?


Problem Five: How can you assume that I as an psychological entity have
a
physical relationship to existence and non-existence? The embryo is a
physical object. Time is a vector that when parsed, modulates a
description
of different aspects of the same phenomenon.


Problem Six: There is no proof being offered that the Universe is a
discrete
Entity.


Problem Seven: I ran out of time to deal with this psuedo-philosophical
argument.


That's because you wasted so much time in pseudo(sic)-philosophical
arguments.


You won't address the caveats because you don't have the intellectual
capacity. All you can do is make fun of the semantics.


I won't address the caveats because none of them apply to my case. I
stated up front that you must adopt the Worldview of Existential
Realism or else I could not prove anything to you. These caveats fail
to meet that requirement, so they are irrelevant to my case.



Lots of luck with getting people to adopt your Weltanschauung just so you
can prove a case you have a priori decided.
--
The argument that everything had a Creator because it's too complicated, is
about as reasonable as saying that it couldn't have been created since it's
too complicated.
It's about like saying that a super flea created a dog. Then
the good fleas go to a great dog in the sky, while the bad unbelieving fleas
are scratched off into a super rug to be forever hungry. If you think dogs
weren't created by a Great Flea then you are an afleaist.
.
User: "Sweet Ol Bob SOB"

Title: Re: Supreme Being of Existential Metaphysics 11 Apr 2005 09:25:04 AM
On Sun, 10 Apr 2005 22:09:08 GMT, "Ike" <accordiondoc@mindspring.com>
wrote:

Lots of luck with getting people to adopt your Weltanschauung just so you
can prove a case

Does it look like I really give a *****.

you have a priori decided.

Is Physics a priori decided?
It uses the same Worldview, namely Existential Realism.
A correct analysis of Physics lays the foundation for the necessary
existence of the Supreme Being.
--
Million Mom March For Gun Confiscation
http://home.houston.rr.com/rkba/mmm.html
"The reasonable man adapts himself to the world. The unreasonable
one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore
all progress depends on the unreasonable man."
-- George Bernard Shaw
.
User: "Ike"

Title: Re: Supreme Being of Existential Metaphysics 11 Apr 2005 05:38:36 PM
"Sweet Ol' Bob (SOB)" <sob@sob.com> wrote in message
news:425a87c5.7383166@news-server.houston.rr.com...

On Sun, 10 Apr 2005 22:09:08 GMT, "Ike" <accordiondoc@mindspring.com>
wrote:

Lots of luck with getting people to adopt your Weltanschauung just so you
can prove a case


Does it look like I really give a *****.

you have a priori decided.


Is Physics a priori decided?

It uses the same Worldview, namely Existential Realism.

A correct analysis of Physics lays the foundation for the necessary
existence of the Supreme Being.

First you decided that
Existential Realism, your version of it, proves God exists, which one
doesn't, by the way, and then you decided that anything contradicting your
version of Existential Realism, is inadmissable to the discussion, which it
isn't, by the way.
.
User: "Sweet Ol Bob SOB"

Title: Re: Supreme Being of Existential Metaphysics 12 Apr 2005 08:43:37 AM
On Mon, 11 Apr 2005 22:38:36 GMT, "Ike" <accordiondoc@mindspring.com>
wrote:

A correct analysis of Physics lays the foundation for the necessary
existence of the Supreme Being.


First you decided that
Existential Realism, your version of it, proves God exists, which one
doesn't, by the way, and then you decided that anything contradicting your
version of Existential Realism, is inadmissable to the discussion, which it
isn't, by the way.

Are you being deliberately obtuse or does it come naturally?
I stated up front that I could prove the necessary existence of the
Supreme Being of Existential Metaphysics if and only if you adopt the
Worldview of Existential Realism.
If you don't want to play by my rules, go somewhere else and set up
your own rules.
--
Million Mom March For Gun Confiscation
http://home.houston.rr.com/rkba/mmm.html
"The reasonable man adapts himself to the world. The unreasonable
one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore
all progress depends on the unreasonable man."
-- George Bernard Shaw
.
User: "Robert J. Kolker"

Title: Re: Supreme Being of Existential Metaphysics 12 Apr 2005 08:58:01 AM
Sweet Ol' Bob (SOB) wrote:


I stated up front that I could prove the necessary existence of the
Supreme Being of Existential Metaphysics if and only if you adopt the
Worldview of Existential Realism.

And if we don't?
Bob Kolker
.
User: "Sweet Ol Bob SOB"

Title: Re: Supreme Being of Existential Metaphysics 12 Apr 2005 10:03:46 AM
On Tue, 12 Apr 2005 09:58:01 -0400, "Robert J. Kolker"
<nowhere@nowhere.com> wrote:

I stated up front that I could prove the necessary existence of the
Supreme Being of Existential Metaphysics if and only if you adopt the
Worldview of Existential Realism.

And if we don't?

Then you won't be able to participate in the discussion. This is the
case for any science. Either you adopt the correct Worldview or you
cannot participate.
You can adopt whatever Worldview you want, and you can start whatever
discussion you want. But if you want to partipate in the discussion I
began regarding the necessity of the existence of the Supreme Being of
Existential Metaphysics, then you will have to adopt the Worldview of
Existential Realism.
--
Million Mom March For Gun Confiscation
http://home.houston.rr.com/rkba/mmm.html
"The reasonable man adapts himself to the world. The unreasonable
one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore
all progress depends on the unreasonable man."
-- George Bernard Shaw
.
User: "Robert J. Kolker"

Title: Re: Supreme Being of Existential Metaphysics 12 Apr 2005 10:23:05 AM
Sweet Ol' Bob (SOB) wrote:


Then you won't be able to participate in the discussion. This is the
case for any science. Either you adopt the correct Worldview or you
cannot participate.

Correctness is determined empirically, not by philosophical decree.
When you have solid empirical proof of God's existence that cannot be
interpreted any other way, please do let us see it. There's a good fellow.


You can adopt whatever Worldview you want, and you can start whatever
discussion you want. But if you want to partipate in the discussion I
began regarding the necessity of the existence of the Supreme Being of
Existential Metaphysics, then you will have to adopt the Worldview of
Existential Realism.

My belief? WYSYWG. What you see is what you get.
Bob Kolker
.
User: "Sweet Ol Bob SOB"

Title: Re: Supreme Being of Existential Metaphysics 12 Apr 2005 11:33:09 AM
On Tue, 12 Apr 2005 11:23:05 -0400, "Robert J. Kolker"
<nowhere@nowhere.com> wrote:

Then you won't be able to participate in the discussion. This is the
case for any science. Either you adopt the correct Worldview or you
cannot participate.

Correctness is determined empirically,

Spoken like a true positivist.

not by philosophical decree.

There is no "decree" here - that is your strawman.
Before we can engage in any rational discussion, we must be in
agreement regarding our Worldview. If you are arguing from a different
set of axioms than I am, we cannot possibly hold a rational
discussion.
Since I am the one who made the original claim, I am the one who is
entitled to declare the Worldview you must adopt in order to
participate in the discussion. That is not a decree.

When you have solid empirical proof of God's existence that cannot be
interpreted any other way, please do let us see it.

That's absurd. Not even Science can meet that ridiculous requirement.

There's a good fellow.

When you have solid empirical proof that God does not exist that
cannot be interpreted any other way, please do let us see it. There's
a good fellow.

My belief? WYSYWG. What you see is what you get.

Do you see the Universe? What is the cause of its existence?
Instead of wasting your time in utter futility trying in vain to
discredit my arguments, which no one can for obvious reasons(*), why
don't you tell us what you know to be the answer to the simple
question, "What is the cause of the existence of the Universe". In
this instance, the word "cause" means the "efficient cause" in
Aristotle's metaphysics.
If you say the Universe is the cause of its own existence, then you
are claiming that the Supreme Being is the Universe. But that is not
scientifically acceptable.
If you do not say the Universe is the cause of its own existence, then
no matter what you choose for the cause of the existence of the
Universe, it must be the Supreme Being.
--
Million Mom March For Gun Confiscation
http://home.houston.rr.com/rkba/mmm.html
"The reasonable man adapts himself to the world. The unreasonable
one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore
all progress depends on the unreasonable man."
-- George Bernard Shaw
.
User: "Ike"

Title: Re: Supreme Being of Existential Metaphysics 12 Apr 2005 10:08:25 PM
"Sweet Ol' Bob (SOB)" <sob@sob.com> wrote in message
news:425bf5da.13769940@news-server.houston.rr.com...

On Tue, 12 Apr 2005 11:23:05 -0400, "Robert J. Kolker"
<nowhere@nowhere.com> wrote:

Then you won't be able to participate in the discussion. This is the
case for any science. Either you adopt the correct Worldview or you
cannot participate.


Correctness is determined empirically,


Spoken like a true positivist.

not by philosophical decree.


There is no "decree" here - that is your strawman.

Before we can engage in any rational discussion, we must be in
agreement regarding our Worldview. If you are arguing from a different
set of axioms than I am, we cannot possibly hold a rational
discussion.

Since I am the one who made the original claim, I am the one who is
entitled to declare the Worldview you must adopt in order to
participate in the discussion. That is not a decree.

When you have solid empirical proof of God's existence that cannot be
interpreted any other way, please do let us see it.


That's absurd. Not even Science can meet that ridiculous requirement.

There's a good fellow.


When you have solid empirical proof that God does not exist that
cannot be interpreted any other way, please do let us see it. There's
a good fellow.

My belief? WYSYWG. What you see is what you get.


Do you see the Universe? What is the cause of its existence?

I don't see a Universe. now what?

Instead of wasting your time in utter futility trying in vain to
discredit my arguments, which no one can for obvious reasons(*), why
don't you tell us what you know to be the answer to the simple
question, "What is the cause of the existence of the Universe". In
this instance, the word "cause" means the "efficient cause" in
Aristotle's metaphysics.

If you say the Universe is the cause of its own existence, then you
are claiming that the Supreme Being is the Universe. But that is not
scientifically acceptable.

If you do not say the Universe is the cause of its own existence, then
no matter what you choose for the cause of the existence of the
Universe, it must be the Supreme Being.

Universe Schmuniverse.
.
User: "Sweet Ol Bob SOB"

Title: Re: Supreme Being of Existential Metaphysics 13 Apr 2005 09:20:16 AM
On Wed, 13 Apr 2005 03:08:25 GMT, "Ike" <accordiondoc@mindspring.com>
wrote:

Do you see the Universe? What is the cause of its existence?

I don't see a Universe. now what?

You are a dolt.
--
Million Mom March For Gun Confiscation
http://home.houston.rr.com/rkba/mmm.html
"The reasonable man adapts himself to the world. The unreasonable
one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore
all progress depends on the unreasonable man."
-- George Bernard Shaw
.
User: "Robert J. Kolker"

Title: Re: Supreme Being of Existential Metaphysics 13 Apr 2005 09:21:07 AM
Sweet Ol' Bob (SOB) wrote:

On Wed, 13 Apr 2005 03:08:25 GMT, "Ike" <accordiondoc@mindspring.com>
wrote:


Do you see the Universe? What is the cause of its existence?



I don't see a Universe. now what?



You are a dolt.

Really? The Universe (by definition) is everything that exists. Do you
see everything that exists? I don't.
Bob Kolker



.
User: "Sweet Ol Bob SOB"

Title: Re: Supreme Being of Existential Metaphysics 13 Apr 2005 12:18:25 PM
On Wed, 13 Apr 2005 10:21:07 -0400, "Robert J. Kolker"
<nowhere@nowhere.com> wrote:

The Universe (by definition) is everything that exists.

That is your definition, not mine.
The Supreme Being exists and is not the Universe.
--
Million Mom March For Gun Confiscation
http://home.houston.rr.com/rkba/mmm.html
"The reasonable man adapts himself to the world. The unreasonable
one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore
all progress depends on the unreasonable man."
-- George Bernard Shaw
.
User: "Ike"

Title: Re: Supreme Being of Existential Metaphysics 15 Apr 2005 10:31:12 PM
"Sweet Ol' Bob (SOB)" <sob@sob.com> wrote in message
news:425d543b.16422013@news-server.houston.rr.com...

On Wed, 13 Apr 2005 10:21:07 -0400, "Robert J. Kolker"
<nowhere@nowhere.com> wrote:

The Universe (by definition) is everything that exists.


That is your definition, not mine.

The Supreme Being exists and is not the Universe.


Then if what I see is the Universe, I am seeing the Universe whenever I see
anything. Howefver what I just saw was a computer screen, which I would not
call the Universe. I looked up at the sky, and when I did I saw
astronomical and meteorological phenomena. I read a science magaqzine that
mentioned the Universe in connection with astronomy, but what I saw was a
magazine article. When did I see the fucking Universe? When did you see it?
.
User: "Sweet Ol Bob SOB"

Title: Re: Supreme Being of Existential Metaphysics 16 Apr 2005 07:41:57 AM
On Sat, 16 Apr 2005 03:31:12 GMT, "Ike" <accordiondoc@mindspring.com>
wrote:

The Supreme Being exists and is not the Universe.

Then if what I see is the Universe, I am seeing the Universe whenever I see
anything. Howefver what I just saw was a computer screen, which I would not
call the Universe. I looked up at the sky, and when I did I saw
astronomical and meteorological phenomena. I read a science magaqzine that
mentioned the Universe in connection with astronomy, but what I saw was a
magazine article. When did I see the fucking Universe? When did you see it?

No one in their right mind could be that stupid.
Quit getting stoned when you post to Usenet.
--
Million Mom March For Gun Confiscation
http://home.houston.rr.com/rkba/mmm.html
"The reasonable man adapts himself to the world. The unreasonable
one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore
all progress depends on the unreasonable man."
-- George Bernard Shaw
.
User: "Ike"

Title: Re: Supreme Being of Existential Metaphysics 17 Apr 2005 09:22:33 AM
"Sweet Ol' Bob (SOB)" <sob@sob.com> wrote in message
news:426107ea.89952855@news-server.houston.rr.com...

On Sat, 16 Apr 2005 03:31:12 GMT, "Ike" <accordiondoc@mindspring.com>
wrote:

The Supreme Being exists and is not the Universe.


Then if what I see is the Universe, I am seeing the Universe whenever I
see
anything. Howefver what I just saw was a computer screen, which I would
not
call the Universe. I looked up at the sky, and when I did I saw
astronomical and meteorological phenomena. I read a science magaqzine that
mentioned the Universe in connection with astronomy, but what I saw was a
magazine article. When did I see the fucking Universe? When did you see
it?


No one in their right mind could be that stupid.

Quit getting stoned when you post to Usenet.

Worse than getting stoned, which I'm not, would be posting antiquated
theological crap that masquerades as philosophy and then refusing to
question any of its premises. Aritsotle looked out his doorway, and must
have thought he was seeing the world. Today you have a worldview, but it is
also fragmentary. But you seem to have the audacity to ask me to extrapolate
the modern worldview and presume the existence of a unitary Universe just so
you can try to prove your pre-conceived theology. I'll give you one more
chance to address this concern and then, if you prevaricate, I will have
wasted about enough time.
--
The argument that everything had a Creator because it's too complicated, is
about as reasonable as saying that it couldn't have been created since it's
too complicated.
It's about like saying that a super flea created a dog. Then
the good fleas go to a great dog in the sky, while the bad unbelieving fleas
are scratched off into a super rug to be forever hungry. If you think dogs
weren't created by a Great Flea then you are an afleaist.
.



User: "Fred Stone"

Title: Re: Supreme Being of Existential Metaphysics 20 Apr 2005 09:12:15 AM
(Sweet Ol' Bob (SOB)) wrote in news:425d543b.16422013@news-
server.houston.rr.com:

On Wed, 13 Apr 2005 10:21:07 -0400, "Robert J. Kolker"
<nowhere@nowhere.com> wrote:

The Universe (by definition) is everything that exists.


That is your definition, not mine.

The Supreme Being exists and is not the Universe.

I exist and I am not the Universe either.
--
Fred Stone
aa# 1369
"You know you're over the target when you start receiving flak."
.





User: "Robert J. Kolker"

Title: Re: Supreme Being of Existential Metaphysics 12 Apr 2005 12:20:46 PM
Sweet Ol' Bob (SOB) wrote:



Spoken like a true positivist.

Pragmatist.
Bob Kolker
.














  Page 1 of 11

1

 

2

 

3

 

4