| Topic: |
Religions > Atheism |
| User: |
"maff" |
| Date: |
31 Aug 2005 04:44:46 AM |
| Object: |
Teaching of Creationism Is Endorsed in New Survey |
Teaching of Creationism Is Endorsed in New Survey
http://www.nytimes.com/2005/08/31/national/31religion.html
By LAURIE GOODSTEIN
A poll found that nearly two-thirds of Americans say that creationism
should be taught alongside evolution in public schools.
The Evolution Debate
http://www.nytimes.com/pages/science/sciencespecial2/index.html
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| User: "Bruce" |
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| Title: Re: Teaching of Creationism Is Endorsed in New Survey |
31 Aug 2005 05:02:51 AM |
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"maff" <maff91@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1125481486.623526.3230@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
Teaching of Creationism Is Endorsed in New Survey
http://www.nytimes.com/2005/08/31/national/31religion.html
By LAURIE GOODSTEIN
A poll found that nearly two-thirds of Americans say that creationism
should be taught alongside evolution in public schools.
The Evolution Debate
http://www.nytimes.com/pages/science/sciencespecial2/index.html
Since 80%+ of the people in US believe in a creator it is hardly surprising
that these people believe that public schools should be teaching this
viewpoint.
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| User: "Googler" |
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| Title: Re: Teaching of Creationism Is Endorsed in New Survey |
31 Aug 2005 10:01:42 AM |
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Bruce wrote:
"maff" <maff91@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1125481486.623526.3230@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
Teaching of Creationism Is Endorsed in New Survey
http://www.nytimes.com/2005/08/31/national/31religion.html
By LAURIE GOODSTEIN
A poll found that nearly two-thirds of Americans say that creationism
should be taught alongside evolution in public schools.
The Evolution Debate
http://www.nytimes.com/pages/science/sciencespecial2/index.html
Since 80%+ of the people in US believe in a creator it is hardly surprising
that these people believe that public schools should be teaching this
viewpoint.
So, Bruce, how do you explain this finding? From the article:
"John C. Green, a senior fellow at the Pew Forum, said he was surprised
to see that teaching both evolution and creationism was favored not
only by conservative Christians, but also by *majorities* of secular
respondents, liberal Democrats and those who accept the theory of
natural selection. Mr. Green called it a reflection of 'American
pragmatism.'" <my emphasis>
Whether it is correct to call this "pragmatism" may be arguable. I
would say it is a typical American political reaction to overt
ideological positions - split the difference and let the chips fall
where they may.
In any case, it refutes your (ideological) position.
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| User: "Bruce" |
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| Title: Re: Teaching of Creationism Is Endorsed in New Survey |
01 Sep 2005 05:45:45 AM |
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"Googler" <GOOGLE.4.godfatha@spamgourmet.com> wrote in message
news:1125500502.648919.68170@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
Bruce wrote:
"maff" <maff91@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1125481486.623526.3230@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
Teaching of Creationism Is Endorsed in New Survey
http://www.nytimes.com/2005/08/31/national/31religion.html
By LAURIE GOODSTEIN
A poll found that nearly two-thirds of Americans say that creationism
should be taught alongside evolution in public schools.
The Evolution Debate
http://www.nytimes.com/pages/science/sciencespecial2/index.html
Since 80%+ of the people in US believe in a creator it is hardly
surprising
that these people believe that public schools should be teaching this
viewpoint.
So, Bruce, how do you explain this finding? From the article:
"John C. Green, a senior fellow at the Pew Forum, said he was surprised
to see that teaching both evolution and creationism was favored not
only by conservative Christians, but also by *majorities* of secular
respondents, liberal Democrats and those who accept the theory of
natural selection. Mr. Green called it a reflection of 'American
pragmatism.'" <my emphasis>
I wouldn't call Green's impression a finding. Rather he expected, for his
own reasons, that liberal Democrats, those who accept the theory of natural
selection and the nebulous *secular respondents* to be non-creationists. He
was surprised to find that they are not. I'd suggest that Green spend some
time here on T.O. in order to better correlate his expectations to reality.
Whether it is correct to call this "pragmatism" may be arguable. I
would say it is a typical American political reaction to overt
ideological positions - split the difference and let the chips fall
where they may.
In any case, it refutes your (ideological) position.
I don't see how Green's impressions refute what I said above.
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| User: "jcon" |
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| Title: Re: Teaching of Creationism Is Endorsed in New Survey |
31 Aug 2005 11:00:13 AM |
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Googler wrote:
Bruce wrote:
"maff" <maff91@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1125481486.623526.3230@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
Teaching of Creationism Is Endorsed in New Survey
http://www.nytimes.com/2005/08/31/national/31religion.html
By LAURIE GOODSTEIN
A poll found that nearly two-thirds of Americans say that creationism
should be taught alongside evolution in public schools.
The Evolution Debate
http://www.nytimes.com/pages/science/sciencespecial2/index.html
Since 80%+ of the people in US believe in a creator it is hardly surprising
that these people believe that public schools should be teaching this
viewpoint.
So, Bruce, how do you explain this finding? From the article:
"John C. Green, a senior fellow at the Pew Forum, said he was surprised
to see that teaching both evolution and creationism was favored not
only by conservative Christians, but also by *majorities* of secular
respondents, liberal Democrats and those who accept the theory of
natural selection. Mr. Green called it a reflection of 'American
pragmatism.'" <my emphasis>
The right wing has never held a patent on stupidity. Utter the
correct magic words and the left wing will be led by the nose
just as easily, sometimes more so.
The true (PR) genius of the ID movement was to quite deliberately
use a language that they knew would entice "liberals" that otherwise
wouldn't give them the time of day: "Equal time", "alternative",
"choice", etc. These are not terms that are often used from
the pulpit in a positive way. Nevertheless, they're sprinkled
like salt through the ID propaganda. Painting Christians as
an oppressed minority in a country that's 80% Christian was
sheer brilliance. (My fellow) liberals are drawn to that
like sharks to chum.
Whether it is correct to call this "pragmatism" may be arguable. I
would say it is a typical American political reaction to overt
ideological positions - split the difference and let the chips fall
where they may.
I agree that "pragmatism" is the wrong word. I'd say it's
America's passionate committment to "whatever".
-jc
In any case, it refutes your (ideological) position.
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| User: "Bob" |
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| Title: Re: Teaching of Creationism Is Endorsed in New Survey |
31 Aug 2005 05:16:06 AM |
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On Wed, 31 Aug 2005 03:02:51 -0700, "Bruce"
<beckman@alumni.caltech.edu> wrote:
"maff" <maff91@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1125481486.623526.3230@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
Teaching of Creationism Is Endorsed in New Survey
http://www.nytimes.com/2005/08/31/national/31religion.html
By LAURIE GOODSTEIN
A poll found that nearly two-thirds of Americans say that creationism
should be taught alongside evolution in public schools.
The Evolution Debate
http://www.nytimes.com/pages/science/sciencespecial2/index.html
Since 80%+ of the people in US believe in a creator it is hardly surprising
that these people believe that public schools should be teaching this
viewpoint.
what's also disgraceful is how prevalent creationism is among xtian
leaders. why aren't they tackling this issue head on? very ugly form
of religion.
---------------------------
to see who "wf3h" is, go to "qrz.com"
and enter 'wf3h' in the field
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| User: "Mark Richardson" |
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| Title: Re: Teaching of Creationism Is Endorsed in New Survey |
31 Aug 2005 08:36:04 AM |
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On Wed, 31 Aug 2005 03:02:51 -0700, "Bruce"
<beckman@alumni.caltech.edu> wrote:
"maff" <maff91@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1125481486.623526.3230@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
Teaching of Creationism Is Endorsed in New Survey
http://www.nytimes.com/2005/08/31/national/31religion.html
By LAURIE GOODSTEIN
A poll found that nearly two-thirds of Americans say that creationism
should be taught alongside evolution in public schools.
The Evolution Debate
http://www.nytimes.com/pages/science/sciencespecial2/index.html
Since 80%+ of the people in US believe in a creator it is hardly surprising
that these people believe that public schools should be teaching this
viewpoint.
It's not quite that clear cut.
Some people believe in the creator God *AND* what science says about
the world.
They don't put limits and restrictions on how God can bring about
creation.
They also want their children to be taught (as well as possible)
*science* in science class.
Disturbingly it isn't just in Kooky Zany Weird USA that this "debate"
is taking place (the world expects Kooky stuff to happen in the USA) -
its in Australia and Britain too.
A new Dark Age looms.
Mark.
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| User: "Andrew Arensburger" |
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| Title: Re: Teaching of Creationism Is Endorsed in New Survey |
31 Aug 2005 11:33:46 AM |
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In talk.origins Mark Richardson <spam2oblivion@yahoo.com.au> wrote:
Disturbingly it isn't just in Kooky Zany Weird USA that this "debate"
is taking place (the world expects Kooky stuff to happen in the USA) -
its in Australia and Britain too.
Yes, but don't the Australians have a tradition of digging a
hole and throwing people into it until they stop spewing such
nonsense? I think it's called a "kooky burrow" or some such.
--
Andrew Arensburger, Systems guy University of Maryland
arensb.no-bloody-spam@umd.edu Office of Information Technology
I'm proud to have been a part of your moral decline.
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| User: "John Wilkins" |
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| Title: Re: Teaching of Creationism Is Endorsed in New Survey |
31 Aug 2005 05:46:01 PM |
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Andrew Arensburger wrote:
In talk.origins Mark Richardson <spam2oblivion@yahoo.com.au> wrote:
Disturbingly it isn't just in Kooky Zany Weird USA that this "debate"
is taking place (the world expects Kooky stuff to happen in the USA) -
its in Australia and Britain too.
Yes, but don't the Australians have a tradition of digging a
hole and throwing people into it until they stop spewing such
nonsense? I think it's called a "kooky burrow" or some such.
I hadn't heard that one. I think you've been took. But we do have a national
tradition of laughing hysterically at stupid people.
--
John S. Wilkins, Postdoctoral Research Fellow, Biohumanities Project
University of Queensland - Blog: evolvethought.blogspot.com
"Darwin's theory has no more to do with philosophy than any other
hypothesis in natural science." Tractatus 4.1122
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| User: "VoiceOfReason" |
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| Title: Re: Teaching of Creationism Is Endorsed in New Survey |
31 Aug 2005 08:45:53 PM |
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John Wilkins wrote:
Andrew Arensburger wrote:
In talk.origins Mark Richardson <spam2oblivion@yahoo.com.au> wrote:
Disturbingly it isn't just in Kooky Zany Weird USA that this "debate"
is taking place (the world expects Kooky stuff to happen in the USA) -
its in Australia and Britain too.
Yes, but don't the Australians have a tradition of digging a
hole and throwing people into it until they stop spewing such
nonsense? I think it's called a "kooky burrow" or some such.
I hadn't heard that one. I think you've been took. But we do have a national
tradition of laughing hysterically at stupid people.
Australian Theme Park - a fence around Alabama. :-)
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| User: "Richo" |
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| Title: Re: Teaching of Creationism Is Endorsed in New Survey |
31 Aug 2005 07:08:11 PM |
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Andrew Arensburger wrote:
In talk.origins Mark Richardson <spam2oblivion@yahoo.com.au> wrote:
Disturbingly it isn't just in Kooky Zany Weird USA that this "debate"
is taking place (the world expects Kooky stuff to happen in the USA) -
its in Australia and Britain too.
Yes, but don't the Australians have a tradition of digging a
hole and throwing people into it until they stop spewing such
nonsense? I think it's called a "kooky burrow" or some such.
***Groan!****
That pun is so bad that it hurts!
Mark.
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| User: "John Wilkins" |
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| Title: Re: Teaching of Creationism Is Endorsed in New Survey |
31 Aug 2005 08:51:36 PM |
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Richo wrote:
Andrew Arensburger wrote:
In talk.origins Mark Richardson <spam2oblivion@yahoo.com.au> wrote:
Disturbingly it isn't just in Kooky Zany Weird USA that this "debate"
is taking place (the world expects Kooky stuff to happen in the USA) -
its in Australia and Britain too.
Yes, but don't the Australians have a tradition of digging a
hole and throwing people into it until they stop spewing such
nonsense? I think it's called a "kooky burrow" or some such.
***Groan!****
That pun is so bad that it hurts!
Mark.
I can't believe I missed it. I'm such a jackass.
--
John S. Wilkins, Postdoctoral Research Fellow, Biohumanities Project
University of Queensland - Blog: evolvethought.blogspot.com
"Darwin's theory has no more to do with philosophy than any other
hypothesis in natural science." Tractatus 4.1122
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| User: "shane" |
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| Title: Re: Teaching of Creationism Is Endorsed in New Survey |
31 Aug 2005 09:41:56 PM |
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John Wilkins wrote:
Richo wrote:
Andrew Arensburger wrote:
In talk.origins Mark Richardson <spam2oblivion@yahoo.com.au> wrote:
Disturbingly it isn't just in Kooky Zany Weird USA that this "debate"
is taking place (the world expects Kooky stuff to happen in the USA) -
its in Australia and Britain too.
Yes, but don't the Australians have a tradition of digging a
hole and throwing people into it until they stop spewing such
nonsense? I think it's called a "kooky burrow" or some such.
***Groan!****
That pun is so bad that it hurts!
Mark.
I can't believe I missed it. I'm such a jackass.
One day you will look back on it all and laugh.
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| User: "John Wilkins" |
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| Title: Re: Teaching of Creationism Is Endorsed in New Survey |
31 Aug 2005 10:37:08 PM |
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shane wrote:
John Wilkins wrote:
Richo wrote:
Andrew Arensburger wrote:
In talk.origins Mark Richardson <spam2oblivion@yahoo.com.au> wrote:
Disturbingly it isn't just in Kooky Zany Weird USA that this "debate"
is taking place (the world expects Kooky stuff to happen in the USA) -
its in Australia and Britain too.
Yes, but don't the Australians have a tradition of digging a
hole and throwing people into it until they stop spewing such
nonsense? I think it's called a "kooky burrow" or some such.
***Groan!****
That pun is so bad that it hurts!
Mark.
I can't believe I missed it. I'm such a jackass.
One day you will look back on it all and laugh.
Not until I'm a merry merry king of the bush, I won't. [Cue: "gay" jokes]
--
John S. Wilkins, Postdoctoral Research Fellow, Biohumanities Project
University of Queensland - Blog: evolvethought.blogspot.com
"Darwin's theory has no more to do with philosophy than any other
hypothesis in natural science." Tractatus 4.1122
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| User: "James" |
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| Title: Re: Teaching of Creationism Is Endorsed in New Survey |
31 Aug 2005 11:59:30 AM |
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Mark Richardson wrote:
On Wed, 31 Aug 2005 03:02:51 -0700, "Bruce"
<beckman@alumni.caltech.edu> wrote:
"maff" <maff91@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1125481486.623526.3230@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
Teaching of Creationism Is Endorsed in New Survey
http://www.nytimes.com/2005/08/31/national/31religion.html
By LAURIE GOODSTEIN
A poll found that nearly two-thirds of Americans say that creationism
should be taught alongside evolution in public schools.
The Evolution Debate
http://www.nytimes.com/pages/science/sciencespecial2/index.html
Since 80%+ of the people in US believe in a creator it is hardly surprising
that these people believe that public schools should be teaching this
viewpoint.
It's not quite that clear cut.
Some people believe in the creator God *AND* what science says about
the world.
They don't put limits and restrictions on how God can bring about
creation.
They also want their children to be taught (as well as possible)
*science* in science class.
Disturbingly it isn't just in Kooky Zany Weird USA that this "debate"
is taking place (the world expects Kooky stuff to happen in the USA) -
its in Australia and Britain too.
A new Dark Age looms.
Not to celebrate the storm that's killing everyone else but sparing me,
but I haven't heard a peep about it in Canada. This is the first I've
heard about it in the UK/Australia, too.
--
James B
aa #944
"A wise man proportions his belief to the evidence."
-David Hume
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| User: "John Wilkins" |
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| Title: Re: Teaching of Creationism Is Endorsed in New Survey |
31 Aug 2005 05:46:54 PM |
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James wrote:
Mark Richardson wrote:
On Wed, 31 Aug 2005 03:02:51 -0700, "Bruce"
<beckman@alumni.caltech.edu> wrote:
"maff" <maff91@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1125481486.623526.3230@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
Teaching of Creationism Is Endorsed in New Survey
http://www.nytimes.com/2005/08/31/national/31religion.html
By LAURIE GOODSTEIN
A poll found that nearly two-thirds of Americans say that creationism
should be taught alongside evolution in public schools.
The Evolution Debate
http://www.nytimes.com/pages/science/sciencespecial2/index.html
Since 80%+ of the people in US believe in a creator it is hardly surprising
that these people believe that public schools should be teaching this
viewpoint.
It's not quite that clear cut.
Some people believe in the creator God *AND* what science says about
the world.
They don't put limits and restrictions on how God can bring about
creation.
They also want their children to be taught (as well as possible)
*science* in science class.
Disturbingly it isn't just in Kooky Zany Weird USA that this "debate"
is taking place (the world expects Kooky stuff to happen in the USA) -
its in Australia and Britain too.
A new Dark Age looms.
Not to celebrate the storm that's killing everyone else but sparing me,
but I haven't heard a peep about it in Canada. This is the first I've
heard about it in the UK/Australia, too.
ID has made some political gains here (what other kind does it make?) with
endorsement from the religious in the conservative party now in national power.
--
John S. Wilkins, Postdoctoral Research Fellow, Biohumanities Project
University of Queensland - Blog: evolvethought.blogspot.com
"Darwin's theory has no more to do with philosophy than any other
hypothesis in natural science." Tractatus 4.1122
.
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| User: "Ferrous Patella" |
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| Title: Re: Teaching of Creationism Is Endorsed in New Survey |
31 Aug 2005 02:57:58 PM |
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news:iffRe.61715$Ji4.38994@fed1read03 by Bruce:
"maff" <maff91@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1125481486.623526.3230@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
Teaching of Creationism Is Endorsed in New Survey
http://www.nytimes.com/2005/08/31/national/31religion.html
By LAURIE GOODSTEIN
A poll found that nearly two-thirds of Americans say that creationism
should be taught alongside evolution in public schools.
The Evolution Debate
http://www.nytimes.com/pages/science/sciencespecial2/index.html
Since 80%+ of the people in US believe in a creator it is hardly
surprising that these people believe that public schools should be
teaching this viewpoint.
In 1958, over 75% of USAians believed that public school should teach
white and black students separatly.
--
Ferrous Patella (Homo gerardii)
T.A., Philosophy Lab
University of Ediacara
"Nature as God's "reality" show - what a concept!"
--A t.o. poster who wishes to remain anonymous
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| User: "R Brown" |
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| Title: Re: Teaching of Creationism Is Endorsed in New Survey |
31 Aug 2005 07:27:38 AM |
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"maff" <maff91@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1125481486.623526.3230@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
Teaching of Creationism Is Endorsed in New Survey
http://www.nytimes.com/2005/08/31/national/31religion.html
By LAURIE GOODSTEIN
A poll found that nearly two-thirds of Americans say that creationism
should be taught alongside evolution in public schools.
The Evolution Debate
http://www.nytimes.com/pages/science/sciencespecial2/index.html
Hmmm...20% of my students are Blackfoot First Nation. Shall I teach the
creation stories of Napi to my Biology students? Was that what they had in
mind, or were they actually thinking of something else?
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| User: "jcon" |
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| Title: Re: Teaching of Creationism Is Endorsed in New Survey |
31 Aug 2005 10:47:41 AM |
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R Brown wrote:
"maff" <maff91@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1125481486.623526.3230@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
Teaching of Creationism Is Endorsed in New Survey
http://www.nytimes.com/2005/08/31/national/31religion.html
By LAURIE GOODSTEIN
A poll found that nearly two-thirds of Americans say that creationism
should be taught alongside evolution in public schools.
The Evolution Debate
http://www.nytimes.com/pages/science/sciencespecial2/index.html
Hmmm...20% of my students are Blackfoot First Nation. Shall I teach the
creation stories of Napi to my Biology students? Was that what they had in
mind, or were they actually thinking of something else?
You can teach any creation story you want, as long as it's Genesis.
Personally, I like the Sumerian creation myths. Parts of them made
it into Genesis, but they took out all the fucking along the
way and they got boring.
-jc
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| User: "Esa Perkio" |
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| Title: Re: Teaching of Creationism Is Endorsed in New Survey |
01 Sep 2005 12:27:58 PM |
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In talk.origins jcon <cirejcon@yahoo.com> wrote:
: Personally, I like the Sumerian creation myths. Parts of them made
: it into Genesis, but they took out all the fucking along the
: way and they got boring.
The Maya gods had attitude...
Human 1.0: Too dumb. Kill them all.
Human 2.0: Won't worship. Kill them all.
Human 3.0: Pleasantly servile.
--
Esa Perkiö
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| User: "Greywolf" |
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| Title: Re: Teaching of Creationism Is Endorsed in New Survey |
31 Aug 2005 05:42:31 AM |
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"maff" <maff91@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1125481486.623526.3230@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
Teaching of Creationism Is Endorsed in New Survey
http://www.nytimes.com/2005/08/31/national/31religion.html
By LAURIE GOODSTEIN
A poll found that nearly two-thirds of Americans say that creationism
should be taught alongside evolution in public schools.
The Evolution Debate
http://www.nytimes.com/pages/science/sciencespecial2/index.html
That is what I love about this country: We have the freedom to pick what is,
and what is not, 'science.' Ahhh, it makes me proud to be an American. *I*
can help determine what someone else's child is taught as 'science.' (And
even though it may not be viewed as science by 'real' scientists, who cares,
majority rules!) Scientists should stick to doing what they do best - making
microwave ovens. They should leave scientific *spiritual* matters in the
hands
of those who know that best - religiously indoctrinated, although
*completely*
unbiased [tee-hee] school teachers, pastors and preachers. And, oh, TV
evangelists who get their 'scientific' information from the bible. Yep, it
is a
good thing that the American public, at large, keeps up with the latest
develop-
ments in science. It's only because of this, and our deep understanding of
every nuance in matters relating to micro-biology, anthropology, particle
physics
and the like, that we Americans can rightfully determine what the youth of
this
country should be taught in science classrooms. And we certainly do not want
*anyone* teaching that there is the possibility that Jesus-God doesn't
exist.
*That* would be very unscientific - and un-American as well.
Greywolf
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| User: "scooter" |
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| Title: Re: Teaching of Creationism Is Endorsed in New Survey |
31 Aug 2005 06:52:55 PM |
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I just wanna know when we get to vote on gravity. I kinda like the idea
of being able to float to school without chemical enhancements.
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| User: "DanielSan" |
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| Title: Re: Teaching of Creationism Is Endorsed in New Survey |
31 Aug 2005 09:58:42 PM |
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scooter wrote:
I just wanna know when we get to vote on gravity. I kinda like the idea
of being able to float to school without chemical enhancements.
Well, it is time our kids learned about the Theory of Intelligent
Falling. Our kids should be able to hear both sides of the phenomena.
These gravitationists... honestly. Both theories carry equal weight.
--
****************************************************
* DanielSan -- alt.atheism #2226 *
*--------------------------------------------------*
* "If God had intended us to walk, he wouldn't *
* have invented roller skates." --Willy Wonka *
****************************************************
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| User: "VoiceOfReason" |
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| Title: Re: Teaching of Creationism Is Endorsed in New Survey |
01 Sep 2005 10:32:26 AM |
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DanielSan wrote:
scooter wrote:
I just wanna know when we get to vote on gravity. I kinda like the idea
of being able to float to school without chemical enhancements.
Well, it is time our kids learned about the Theory of Intelligent
Falling. Our kids should be able to hear both sides of the phenomena.
These gravitationists... honestly. Both theories carry equal weight.
Gravity is a myth. The Earth sucks. :-)
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: Teaching of Creationism Is Endorsed in New Survey |
31 Aug 2005 10:20:01 AM |
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Since when does science use a survey to determin what is and what is
not science?
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| User: "Googler" |
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| Title: Re: Teaching of Creationism Is Endorsed in New Survey |
31 Aug 2005 10:36:57 AM |
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wrote:
Since when does science use a survey to determin what is and what is
not science?
I think you are missing the point of this survey.
Of course, the scientific process is not driven by polls.
However, the public perception of the scientific process, and what the
scientific community stands for, is very important.
If the scientific community is to engage the wider public, as it must,
it cannot do so burdened with an ideology or even with a political
partisanship.
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| User: "Mark Stahl" |
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| Title: Re: Teaching of Creationism Is Endorsed in New Survey |
31 Aug 2005 04:45:09 PM |
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"Googler" <GOOGLE.4.godfatha@spamgourmet.com> wrote in message
news:1125502617.804582.51420@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com...
MitchAl...@aol.com wrote:
Since when does science use a survey to determin what is and what is
not science?
I think you are missing the point of this survey.
Of course, the scientific process is not driven by polls.
However, the public perception of the scientific process, and what the
scientific community stands for, is very important.
If the scientific community is to engage the wider public, as it must,
it cannot do so burdened with an ideology or even with a political
partisanship.
Sure it can. In fact, it absolutely must, when some political persuasions
are actively anti-science.
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| User: "Agki" |
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| Title: Re: Teaching of Creationism Is Endorsed in New Survey |
31 Aug 2005 11:08:49 AM |
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If the scientific community is to engage the wider public, as it must,
it cannot do so burdened with an ideology or even with a political
partisanship.
The views of the public, no matter how wide or narrow, do not matter to
how we understand gravity, light, thermodynamics, predator-prey
relationships, earthquakes, or evolution. Science is independent of
moral, political, or economic views of the public or scientists
themselves. It has no "ideology" except that it comes closer and
closer to "truth" the more it learns about the world and it is
absolutely free of any political partisanship. There only two uses
science has for a wider public; the recruitment of new scientists and
the financial support needed to do science.
Agki
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| User: "Googler" |
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| Title: Re: Teaching of Creationism Is Endorsed in New Survey |
31 Aug 2005 01:06:48 PM |
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Agki wrote:
If the scientific community is to engage the wider public, as it must,
it cannot do so burdened with an ideology or even with a political
partisanship.
The views of the public, no matter how wide or narrow, do not matter to
how we understand gravity, light, thermodynamics, predator-prey
relationships, earthquakes, or evolution.
Who is "we"?
This elitist turn won't work.
The scientific community is no more of an elite caste than any other
part of the public. Sorry to burst that bubble.
So while the results of the scientific process are what they are, the
community is very much dependent on public acceptance.
And since you can't 'do science' without a community, the conclusion is
obvious.
Science is independent of
moral, political, or economic views of the public or scientists
themselves.
Nice try at reification, but that won't work either.
It has no "ideology" except that it comes closer and
closer to "truth" the more it learns about the world and it is
absolutely free of any political partisanship.
If the "it" refers to the scientific community, this is a naive
statement which is not supported by the evidence, either contemporary
or historical.
There only two uses
science has for a wider public; the recruitment of new scientists and
the financial support needed to do science.
I think you are trying to be funny here.
Thank you for your message.
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: Teaching of Creationism Is Endorsed in New Survey |
01 Sep 2005 09:48:59 AM |
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Googler wrote:
Agki wrote:
If the scientific community is to engage the wider public, as it must,
it cannot do so burdened with an ideology or even with a political
partisanship.
The views of the public, no matter how wide or narrow, do not matter to
how we understand gravity, light, thermodynamics, predator-prey
relationships, earthquakes, or evolution.
Who is "we"?
This elitist turn won't work.
Please make a case that what he said had anyhing to do with elitism.
The scientific community is no more of an elite caste than any other
part of the public. Sorry to burst that bubble.
He didn't say it was elite, so the only burst bubble was in your mind.
So while the results of the scientific process are what they are, the
community is very much dependent on public acceptance.
That is true, but that's not to say that the public is right.
And since you can't 'do science' without a community, the conclusion is
obvious.
Science is independent of
moral, political, or economic views of the public or scientists
themselves.
Nice try at reification, but that won't work either.
How is what he did reification? Because he used "science" as the
subject of a sentence?
It has no "ideology" except that it comes closer and
closer to "truth" the more it learns about the world and it is
absolutely free of any political partisanship.
If the "it" refers to the scientific community, this is a naive
statement which is not supported by the evidence, either contemporary
or historical.
There only two uses
science has for a wider public; the recruitment of new scientists and
the financial support needed to do science.
I think you are trying to be funny here.
Thank you for your message.
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| User: "John Harshman" |
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| Title: Re: Teaching of Creationism Is Endorsed in New Survey |
31 Aug 2005 12:31:20 PM |
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Googler wrote:
MitchAl...@aol.com wrote:
Since when does science use a survey to determin what is and what is
not science?
I think you are missing the point of this survey.
Of course, the scientific process is not driven by polls.
However, the public perception of the scientific process, and what the
scientific community stands for, is very important.
If the scientific community is to engage the wider public, as it must,
it cannot do so burdened with an ideology or even with a political
partisanship.
What ideology did you have in mind? What political partisanship?
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| User: "Rick Merrill" |
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| Title: Re: Teaching of Creationism Is Endorsed in New Survey |
31 Aug 2005 07:31:05 AM |
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maff wrote:
Teaching of Creationism Is Endorsed in New Survey
http://www.nytimes.com/2005/08/31/national/31religion.html
By LAURIE GOODSTEIN
A poll found that nearly two-thirds of Americans say that creationism
should be taught alongside evolution in public schools.
The Evolution Debate
http://www.nytimes.com/pages/science/sciencespecial2/index.html
Are they still teaching 'conservation of mass" and 'conservation of
energy" also? Latin?
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| User: "jcon" |
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| Title: Re: Teaching of Creationism Is Endorsed in New Survey |
31 Aug 2005 12:12:21 PM |
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maff wrote:
Teaching of Creationism Is Endorsed in New Survey
http://www.nytimes.com/2005/08/31/national/31religion.html
By LAURIE GOODSTEIN
A poll found that nearly two-thirds of Americans say that creationism
should be taught alongside evolution in public schools.
The Evolution Debate
http://www.nytimes.com/pages/science/sciencespecial2/index.html
Maybe we should gauge their general level of scientific knowledge
by asking them to way in on competing theories for the
expanding universe, or various models for supersymmetry.
That might be too complicated. How about if we just have the
general public vote on the most effective treatment for prostate
cancer? That seems like the best way to decide the issue to me.
-jc
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| User: "maff" |
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| Title: Enemies of Science & Knowledge |
31 Aug 2005 03:17:41 PM |
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maff wrote:
Teaching of Creationism Is Endorsed in New Survey
http://www.nytimes.com/2005/08/31/national/31religion.html
By LAURIE GOODSTEIN
A poll found that nearly two-thirds of Americans say that creationism
should be taught alongside evolution in public schools.
The Evolution Debate
http://www.nytimes.com/pages/science/sciencespecial2/index.html
Pew
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.atheism/msg/8af04e27c08a1c0f
Science in Simple Steps
http://snipurl.com/bmxd
http://snipurl.com/bmx5
http://forums.about.com/n/pfx/forum.aspx?nav=start&lgnF=y&webtag=ab-atheism2
http://forums.about.com/n/pfx/forum.aspx?nav=messages&tsn=4&tid=91&webtag=ab-atheism2
What Is This Thing Called Science: An Assessment of the Nature and
Status of Science and Its Methods
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0335201091/
by Alan Chalmers
Practical Applications of Evolutionary Biology
http://groups-beta.google.com/group/alt.atheism/msg/ad05bd62e37d7bdc
Strawman ------------------------------> Proponents
Theistic science/ Atheistic science----> Al-Ghazali, Paley, Behe,
Dembski, et al
Proletarian science/ Bourgeois science-> Stalin, Lysenko, et al
German science/ Jewish science --------> Hitler et al
Hypatia of Alexandria
http://groups-beta.google.com/group/alt.atheism/msg/0293f5eee5993c60
Ibn Rochd (Averroes)
http://groups-beta.google.com/group/alt.atheism/msg/09898e6cd5cd4b6a
Galileo
http://groups-beta.google.com/group/alt.atheism/msg/1f9b608598ac3485
Giordano Bruno
http://groups-beta.google.com/group/alt.atheism/msg/000e4e2f602cf3d1
Lucilio Vanini
http://groups-beta.google.com/group/alt.atheism/msg/dfe40f3a442686e0
Expulsion of Muslims and Jews from Spain
http://forums.about.com/n/pfx/forum.aspx?nav=start&lgnF=y&webtag=ab-atheism2
http://forums.about.com/n/pfx/forum.aspx?nav=messages&tsn=1&tid=78&webtag=ab-atheism2
Cheng Ho (Zheng He)
http://groups-beta.google.com/group/alt.atheism/msg/ed54f2486a73a61a
Lysenko
http://groups-beta.google.com/group/alt.atheism/msg/c34f83f15dc01337
Scientists flee from Hitler's Germany
http://forums.about.com/n/pfx/forum.aspx?nav=start&lgnF=y&webtag=ab-atheism2
http://forums.about.com/n/pfx/forum.aspx?nav=messages&tsn=1&tid=116&webtag=ab-atheism2
J. Robert Oppenheimer
http://groups-beta.google.com/group/alt.atheism/msg/213aa83eb34ae078
Tsien Hsue-shen (Qian Xuesen)
http://groups-beta.google.com/group/alt.atheism/msg/038c995a16b8b267
Alan Turing
http://groups-beta.google.com/group/alt.atheism/msg/47a7bffce86e4792
Andrei Sakharov
http://groups-beta.google.com/group/alt.atheism/msg/94103dfa11e49fd6
Lu Xun
http://groups-beta.google.com/group/alt.atheism/msg/c58152e780e99fb7
Miguel Servet
http://groups-beta.google.com/group/alt.atheism/msg/91fa5a171982975a
Rihab Taha al-Azawi al-Tikriti
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.atheism/msg/44dd518593f8a255
Mohammad Munim al-Izmerly
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.atheism/msg/e0c4e1edf73c329f
Enemies of Science & Knowledge
http://snipurl.com/hcm4
A Blueprint for the Future
http://groups-beta.google.com/group/alt.atheism/msg/59c28cd6dfe6f60f
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: Teaching of Creationism Is Endorsed in New Survey |
31 Aug 2005 07:38:11 AM |
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maff wrote:
Teaching of Creationism Is Endorsed in New Survey
http://www.nytimes.com/2005/08/31/national/31religion.html
By LAURIE GOODSTEIN
A poll found that nearly two-thirds of Americans say that creationism
should be taught alongside evolution in public schools.
The Evolution Debate
http://www.nytimes.com/pages/science/sciencespecial2/index.html
This is a poll by some church. Wasn't it 50 per cent in the last one?
It looks like a big leap.
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