Ten Commandments fight probably going to US Supreme Court

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Topic:	Religions > Atheism
User:	""
Date:	07 Aug 2003 02:44:34 PM
Object:	Ten Commandments fight probably going to US Supreme Court

Ten Commandments fight probably going to US Supreme Court
__________________________________________________________________________
As religious conservatives rally in defense of the so-called Ten Commandments
monument at the Alabama State Judicial Building in Montgomery, legal observers
said recent conflicting legal rulings on similar displays around the country could
eventually force a reluctant U.S. Supreme Court to decide the case.
In a dispute that has become the flashpoint of a national debate on the legality of
religious displays at government facilities, a federal judge on Tuesday ordered
Alabama Chief Justice Roy Moore to remove from the State Supreme Court Building
a 1.5 ton monument that portrays, among other writings, the Ten Commandments.

In May 2001, the Supreme Court declined to review whether a Ten Commandments
monument that had been on display outside the municipal building in Elkhart, Ind.,
was unconstitutional.
Christian groups are planning a rally in support of the monument at the Supreme Court
building in Montgomery, Ala., on Saturday, August 16, and non-stop vigils are
planned to begin August 20, the deadline U.S. District Judge Myron Thompson set for
the monument's removal.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
This is only a synopsis.
Read the full text at this www site :
http://www.crosswalk.com/news/1213583.html
__________________________________________________________________________
.

User: "Ninure Saunders"
Title: Re: Ten Commandments fight probably going to US Supreme Court	07 Aug 2003 04:26:00 PM

In article <n0b5jvg48998akvhsna1k73u2rg1gl3vtj@4ax.com>,
grub@internet.charitydays.co.uk wrote:
-Ten Commandments fight probably going to US Supreme Court
<snip>
Don't you thibk a better monument to the 10 Commandments than a sign on
the wall, or a block of stone would be for Christians to actually obey
the 10 commandments thmselves?
Rom. 13:9 The commandments, ³Do not commit adultery,² ³Do not murder,²
³Do not steal,² ³Do not covet,² and whatever other commandment there may
be, are summed up in this one rule: ³Love your neighbor as yourself.²
Gal. 5:14 The entire law is summed up in a single command: ³Love your
neighbor as yourself.²
James 2:8 If you really keep the royal law found in Scripture, ³Love
your neighbor as yourself,² you are doing right.
I mean you xould actually love uour neighbor, and try to be as loving and
forgiving as Jesus was.
Oh wait, the concept of "loving your neighbor" is liberal B.S. , and the
man Jesus was a fool and nothing he said is to be taken seriously
according to conservatives....
Never mind.
Ninure Saunders aka Rainbow Christian
http://Rainbow-Christian.tk
The Lord is my Shepherd and He knows I'm Gay
http://Ninure-Saunders.tk
My Yahoo Group
http://Ninure.tk
My Online Diary
http://www.ninure.deardiary.net
-
Universal Fellowship of Metropolitan Community Churches
http://www.MCCchurch.org
To send e-mail, remove nohate from address
.

User: "atriana"
Title: Re: Ten Commandments fight probably going to US Supreme Court	08 Aug 2003 02:09:06 AM

I think the commandments should stay...and maybe put in every courtroom.
No, wait, they'd have a stinker of a time with that "Do not kill" one,=20
wouldn't they?
-a
Ninure Saunders wrote:

In article <n0b5jvg48998akvhsna1k73u2rg1gl3vtj@4ax.com>,
grub@internet.charitydays.co.uk wrote:
=20
-Ten Commandments fight probably going to US Supreme Court
<snip>
=20
Don't you thibk a better monument to the 10 Commandments than a sign on=
the wall, or a block of stone would be for Christians to actually obey=
the 10 commandments thmselves?
=20
=20
Rom. 13:9 The commandments, =B3Do not commit adultery,=B2 =B3Do not m=

urder,=B2

=B3Do not steal,=B2 =B3Do not covet,=B2 and whatever other commandment =

there may

be, are summed up in this one rule: =B3Love your neighbor as yourself.=B2=

=20

=20
Gal. 5:14 The entire law is summed up in a single command: =B3Love yo=

neighbor as yourself.=B2=20
=20
James 2:8 If you really keep the royal law found in Scripture, =B3Lov=

your neighbor as yourself,=B2 you are doing right.
=20
I mean you xould actually love uour neighbor, and try to be as loving a=

forgiving as Jesus was.
=20
Oh wait, the concept of "loving your neighbor" is liberal B.S. , and th=

man Jesus was a fool and nothing he said is to be taken seriously
according to conservatives....
=20
Never mind.
=20
Ninure Saunders aka Rainbow Christian
http://Rainbow-Christian.tk
=20
The Lord is my Shepherd and He knows I'm Gay
http://Ninure-Saunders.tk
=20
My Yahoo Group
http://Ninure.tk
=20
My Online Diary
http://www.ninure.deardiary.net
-
Universal Fellowship of Metropolitan Community Churches
http://www.MCCchurch.org
=20
To send e-mail, remove nohate from address

User: "James T. Brown"
Title: Re: Ten Commandments fight probably going to US Supreme Court	09 Aug 2003 02:24:49 AM

On Sat, 9 Aug 2003 01:32:53 -0500, Carol Lee Smith <

>
wrote:

On Fri, 8 Aug 2003, Carol Lee Smith wrote:

Especially in Texas.

The following was routed in the wrong direction--to my emailbox instead of
this forum:

Date: 08 Aug 2003 22:33:35 GMT
From: Dushevno <dushevno@aol.com>
To:

Subject: Re: Ten Commandments fight probably going to US Supreme Court
Newsgroups: alt.religion.christian.east-orthodox

Subject: Re: Ten Commandments fight probably going to US Supreme Court
From: Carol Lee Smith

On Fri, 8 Aug 2003, atriana wrote:

I think the commandments should stay...and maybe put in every

courtroom.

Peachy keen. And pretty soon they would be joined by quotes from the
Koran, the Bhagavad Gita, the Dhammapada, L. Ron Hubbard, the Reverend
Moon, Chief Howling Wolf and any other religious movement that sued in
court for equal treatment.
Courtroom walls would soon get very cluttered and the crime rate
would remain unchanged.

Religion was not a problem in the eyes of the founding fathers. They
had no difficulty at all discussing religion and even including
religious statements in the very documents which direct our society.
They saw the value of moral guidelines in the working of a society.
Are you more wise as an individual than they were collectively? No
need to answer, really. Your Post speaks very loudly about what you
are.

In Christ,
Alec Lowly

User: "Ninure Saunders"
Title: Re: Ten Commandments fight probably going to US Supreme Court	09 Aug 2003 09:26:12 AM

In article <45374abbb53dfa20d5de6a437c3aef94@TeraNews>, James T. Brown wrote:
-On Sat, 9 Aug 2003 01:32:53 -0500, Carol Lee Smith <

>
-wrote:
-
->On Fri, 8 Aug 2003, Carol Lee Smith wrote:
->
->> Especially in Texas.
->
->The following was routed in the wrong direction--to my emailbox instead of
->this forum:
->
->Date: 08 Aug 2003 22:33:35 GMT
->From: Dushevno <dushevno@aol.com>
->To:

->Subject: Re: Ten Commandments fight probably going to US Supreme Court
->Newsgroups: alt.religion.christian.east-orthodox
->
->>Subject: Re: Ten Commandments fight probably going to US Supreme Court
->>From: Carol Lee Smith

->
->>On Fri, 8 Aug 2003, atriana wrote:
->>
->>> I think the commandments should stay...and maybe put in every
->courtroom.
->
-> Peachy keen. And pretty soon they would be joined by quotes from the
->Koran, the Bhagavad Gita, the Dhammapada, L. Ron Hubbard, the Reverend
->Moon, Chief Howling Wolf and any other religious movement that sued in
->court for equal treatment.
-> Courtroom walls would soon get very cluttered and the crime rate
->would remain unchanged.
-
-Religion was not a problem in the eyes of the founding fathers. They
-had no difficulty at all discussing religion and even including
-religious statements in the very documents which direct our society.
-They saw the value of moral guidelines in the working of a society.
-Are you more wise as an individual than they were collectively? No
-need to answer, really. Your Post speaks very loudly about what you
-are.
-
-
I'll answer. tho.
The dounding Fathers for the most part had no little difficulty in
eliminating (murdering) the Native populations of North America,
directly partipating in or profittng from, or "condoning" the enslavement
of Afticans, and in general being for the rights of White men of
property or everyone else.
Are "we wiser than they". I would like to thin so.
As for Religious statements in the very documents which guide "our"
society, I assume you mean the Consitution of the USA. and the
Declaration of Indepndence , which contain absolutely NO references that
are particularly Christian or Jewish.
Your faillure to either know that, ot pretend that you are not aware of
this, shows what kind of person YOU are.
Some quotes from those "wise" Founding Fathers:
"The clergy...believe that any portion of power confided to me [as
President] will be exerted in opposition to their schemes. And they
believe rightly: for I have sworn upon the altar of God, eternal hostility
against every form of tyranny over the mind of man. But this is all they
have to fear from me: and enough, too, in their opinion." --Thomas
Jefferson to
Benjamin Rush, 1800. ME 10:173
"I would not dare to so dishonor my Creator God by attaching His name to
that book (the Bible)."
- Thomas Paine

"What influence in fact have Christian ecclesiastical establishments had
on civil society? In many instances they have been upholding the thrones
of political tyranny. In no instance have they been seen as the guardians
of the liberties of the people. Rulers who wished to
subvert the public liberty have found in the clergy convenient
auxiliaries. A just government, instituted to secure and
perpetuateliberty, does not need the clergy."
- James Madison
"Religion and government will both exist in greater purity, the less they
are mixed together."
- James Madison
". . . Some books against Deism fell into my hands. . . It happened that
they wrought an effect on my quite contrary to what was intended by them;
for the arguments of the Deists, which were quoted to be refuted, appeared
to me much stronger than the refutations; in short,
I soon became a through Deist."
- Benjamin Franklin
And most importantly...
"the government of the United States of America is not in any sense
founded on the Christian Religion"
- Treaty of Tripoli, ratified and proclaimed in Philadelphia on June
10, 1797
And
"I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American
people which declared that their legislature should 'make no law
respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise
thereof,' thus building a wall of separation between church
and State."
- Thomas Jefferson
There. NOW will you admit that America belongs to all of us, whether they
believe in your religion or not?
Ninure Saunders aka Rainbow Christian
http://Rainbow-Christian.tk
The Lord is my Shepherd and He knows I'm Gay
http://Ninure-Saunders.tk
My Yahoo Group
http://Ninure.tk
My Online Diary
http://www.ninure.deardiary.net
-
Universal Fellowship of Metropolitan Community Churches
http://www.MCCchurch.org
To send e-mail, remove nohate from address
.

User: "James T. Brown"
Title: Re: Ten Commandments fight probably going to US Supreme Court	09 Aug 2003 11:33:29 AM

On Sat, 09 Aug 2003 14:26:12 GMT,

(Ninure Saunders) wrote:

In article <45374abbb53dfa20d5de6a437c3aef94@TeraNews>, James T. Brown wrote:

-On Sat, 9 Aug 2003 01:32:53 -0500, Carol Lee Smith <

(...)
None of which disclaim that the United States is a nation based on
morality. You, and the homosexual minority are trying to shove down
everyone's throat the homosexual demand that. "homosexuals even though
looked on by the society in which they are a tiny minority as contrary
to their moral standards, have the right to dictate to, to demand of
and to cause that society in general to abandon it's morale beliefs
and accept homosexuality as being equal in all ways to
heterosexuality. That, to say the very least, is foolish thinking.

There. NOW will you admit that America belongs to all of us, whether they
believe in your religion or not?

It is you who must abandon the homosexual lie which says that you
cannot be judged on your morality by a society based on morality.
That's akin to saying that a college cannot base its admission
standards on the knowledge of the applicants...

Ninure Saunders aka Rainbow Christian
http://Rainbow-Christian.tk

The Lord is my Shepherd and He knows I'm Gay
http://Ninure-Saunders.tk

My Yahoo Group
http://Ninure.tk

My Online Diary
http://www.ninure.deardiary.net
-
Universal Fellowship of Metropolitan Community Churches
http://www.MCCchurch.org

To send e-mail, remove nohate from address

User: "Ninure Saunders"
Title: Re: Ten Commandments fight probably going to US Supreme Court	09 Aug 2003 06:22:07 PM

In article <8039fe7efe48a86baffd9cf5051a6b6e@TeraNews>, James T. Brown wrote:
-On Sat, 09 Aug 2003 14:26:12 GMT,

-(Ninure Saunders) wrote:
-
->In article <45374abbb53dfa20d5de6a437c3aef94@TeraNews>, James T. Brown wrote:
->
->-On Sat, 9 Aug 2003 01:32:53 -0500, Carol Lee Smith <

>
->-wrote:
->-
->->On Fri, 8 Aug 2003, Carol Lee Smith wrote:
->->
->->> Especially in Texas.
->->
->->The following was routed in the wrong direction--to my emailbox instead of
->->this forum:
->->
->->Date: 08 Aug 2003 22:33:35 GMT
->->From: Dushevno <dushevno@aol.com>
->->To:

->->Subject: Re: Ten Commandments fight probably going to US Supreme Court
->->Newsgroups: alt.religion.christian.east-orthodox
->->
->->>Subject: Re: Ten Commandments fight probably going to US Supreme Court
->->>From: Carol Lee Smith

->->
->->>On Fri, 8 Aug 2003, atriana wrote:
->->>
->->>> I think the commandments should stay...and maybe put in every
->->courtroom.
->->
->-> Peachy keen. And pretty soon they would be joined by quotes from the
->->Koran, the Bhagavad Gita, the Dhammapada, L. Ron Hubbard, the Reverend
->->Moon, Chief Howling Wolf and any other religious movement that sued in
->->court for equal treatment.
->-> Courtroom walls would soon get very cluttered and the crime rate
->->would remain unchanged.
->-
->-Religion was not a problem in the eyes of the founding fathers. They
->-had no difficulty at all discussing religion and even including
->-religious statements in the very documents which direct our society.
->-They saw the value of moral guidelines in the working of a society.
->-Are you more wise as an individual than they were collectively? No
->-need to answer, really. Your Post speaks very loudly about what you
->-are.
->-
->-
->
->I'll answer. tho.
->
->The dounding Fathers for the most part had no little difficulty in
->eliminating (murdering) the Native populations of North America,
->directly partipating in or profittng from, or "condoning" the enslavement
->of Afticans, and in general being for the rights of White men of
->property or everyone else.
->
->Are "we wiser than they". I would like to thin so.
->
->As for Religious statements in the very documents which guide "our"
->society, I assume you mean the Consitution of the USA. and the
->Declaration of Indepndence , which contain absolutely NO references that
->are particularly Christian or Jewish.
->
->
->Your faillure to either know that, ot pretend that you are not aware of
->this, shows what kind of person YOU are.
->
->Some quotes from those "wise" Founding Fathers:
-
-(...)
-
-None of which disclaim that the United States is a nation based on
-morality.
So you are saying that slavery and genocide are moral?
Because those were two of the "pillars" of the founding of this country.
You, and the homosexual minority are trying to shove down
-everyone's throat the homosexual demand that.
I am sorry that you think that respect for any people you dislike is
"shocing it down your throat". I prat to God that you never find yourself
in a position where you have defend yourself against a majoirty who
finds you unworthy of human respect.
="homosexuals even though
-looked on by the society in which they are a tiny minority as contrary
-to their moral standards, have the right to dictate to, to demand of
-and to cause that society in general to abandon it's morale beliefs
If that morality, like society's acceptance of slavery as being moral, is
in favt doing harm to others, it is only right to demand that morality be
changed.
-and accept homosexuality as being equal in all ways to
-heterosexuality. That, to say the very least, is foolish thinking.
Why is it foolish?
-
->There. NOW will you admit that America belongs to all of us, whether they
->believe in your religion or not?
-
-It is you who must abandon the homosexual lie which says that you
-cannot be judged on your morality by a society based on morality.
This sociert is not, and never was founded on morality...
-That's akin to saying that a college cannot base its admission
-standards on the knowledge of the applicants...
Your analogy is foolish...
Ninure Saunders aka Rainbow Christian
http://Rainbow-Christian.tk
The Lord is my Shepherd and He knows I'm Gay
http://Ninure-Saunders.tk
My Yahoo Group
http://Ninure.tk
My Online Diary
http://www.ninure.deardiary.net
-
Universal Fellowship of Metropolitan Community Churches
http://www.MCCchurch.org
To send e-mail, remove nohate from address
.

User: "David Davis"
Title: Re: Ten Commandments fight probably going to US Supreme Court	09 Aug 2003 06:34:01 PM

Ninure Saunders wrote:

In article <8039fe7efe48a86baffd9cf5051a6b6e@TeraNews>, James T. Brown wrote:

->Some quotes from those "wise" Founding Fathers:
-
-(...)
-
-None of which disclaim that the United States is a nation based on
-morality.

So you are saying that slavery and genocide are moral?

Because those were two of the "pillars" of the founding of this country.

You, and the homosexual minority are trying to shove down
-everyone's throat the homosexual demand that.

I am sorry that you think that respect for any people you dislike is
"shocing it down your throat". I prat to God that you never find yourself
in a position where you have defend yourself against a majoirty who
finds you unworthy of human respect.

That James Brown ought to tell you what race Bill Taylor really
is, passing as a white, sad ain't it, another Allen Keyes or Clarence
Thomas.

.

User: "David Davis"
Title: Re: Ten Commandments fight probably going to US Supreme Court	09 Aug 2003 05:30:39 PM

James, T., Brown wrote:

On Sat, 09 Aug 2003 14:26:12 GMT,

(Ninure Saunders) wrote:

Some quotes from those "wise" Founding Fathers:

(...)

None of which disclaim that the United States is a nation based on
morality. You, and the homosexual minority are trying to shove down
everyone's throat the homosexual demand that. "homosexuals even though
looked on by the society in which they are a tiny minority as contrary
to their moral standards, have the right to dictate to, to demand of
and to cause that society in general to abandon it's morale beliefs
and accept homosexuality as being equal in all ways to
heterosexuality. That, to say the very least, is foolish thinking.

And since there is not one word in the bible in context about
homosexuality, because they did not even have a concept for it
at the time, nor any words for it, where do you derive this so
called moral standard from, other than bigotry? The only
sin you will find in context is the sin of idolatry in the sexual
ritual of giving the seed to Baal, Molech and Venus, which
is idolatry, which was treason and carried the death penalty.
If the only legal marriage is one between a man and a woman
who does a hermaphrodite legally marry?

There. NOW will you admit that America belongs to all of us, whether they
believe in your religion or not?

It is you who must abandon the homosexual lie which says that you
cannot be judged on your morality by a society based on morality.

Again, where do you derive your so called morality from, you
cannot find it in the bible, in context. Jesus said a hermaphrodite
could marry if they could do so for life, Mat 19:12, 1 Cor 7:9.
Which is a same sex marriage.
You anti-American, anti-constitution lot want to impose the
tyranny of the majority upon all minorities.
James Madison wrote in Federalist Paper 51: "It is of great
importance in a republic not only to guard the society against
the oppression of its rulers but to guard one part of the
society against the injustice of the other part. If a majority
be united by a common interest, the rights of the minority
will be insecure."

.

User: "Gray Shockley"
Title: Re: Ten Commandments fight probably going to US Supreme Court	09 Aug 2003 12:19:36 PM

On Sat, 9 Aug 2003 9:26:12 -0500, Ninure Saunders wrote
(in message
<RainbowChristiannohate-0908030937590001@h-69-3-219-204.chcgilgm.covad.net>):

The dounding Fathers for the most part had no little difficulty in
eliminating (murdering) the Native populations of North America,
directly partipating in or profittng from, or "condoning" the enslavement
of Afticans, and in general being for the rights of White men of
property or everyone else.

Examples, please.
Gray Shockley
--------------------------------------------------------
Everything is always the worst it's ever been.
.

User: ""
Title: Re: Ten Commandments fight probably going to US Supreme Court	09 Aug 2003 02:14:29 PM

Gray Shockley <gray-11@cybercoffee.org> wrote:

Examples of which?
.

User: "Ninure Saunders"
Title: Re: Ten Commandments fight probably going to US Supreme Court	09 Aug 2003 06:22:59 PM

In article <0001HW.BB5A97580026C2E115884970@news-south.giganews.com>, Gray
Shockley <gray-11@cybercoffee.org> wrote:
-On Sat, 9 Aug 2003 9:26:12 -0500, Ninure Saunders wrote
-(in message
-<RainbowChristiannohate-0908030937590001@h-69-3-219-204.chcgilgm.covad.net>):
-
-> The dounding Fathers for the most part had no little difficulty in
-> eliminating (murdering) the Native populations of North America,
-> directly partipating in or profittng from, or "condoning" the enslavement
-> of Afticans, and in general being for the rights of White men of
-> property or everyone else.
-
-
-Examples, please.
Pick up a GOOD American History book, please.
-
-
Ninure Saunders aka Rainbow Christian
http://Rainbow-Christian.tk
The Lord is my Shepherd and He knows I'm Gay
http://Ninure-Saunders.tk
My Yahoo Group
http://Ninure.tk
My Online Diary
http://www.ninure.deardiary.net
-
Universal Fellowship of Metropolitan Community Churches
http://www.MCCchurch.org
To send e-mail, remove nohate from address
.

User: "Ward Stewart"
Title: Re: Ten Commandments fight probably going to US Supreme Court	09 Aug 2003 01:41:08 PM

On Sat, 9 Aug 2003 12:19:36 -0500, Gray Shockley
<gray-11@cybercoffee.org> wrote:

On Sat, 9 Aug 2003 9:26:12 -0500, Ninure Saunders wrote
(in message
<RainbowChristiannohate-0908030937590001@h-69-3-219-204.chcgilgm.covad.net>):

Examples, please.
Gray Shockley

Three hundred plus years of exactly what it described above -- as a
reference, the history of these united states.
During the last fifty or so years this has been changing -- changint
with a back-ground noise of shrieking by the ill informed, hateful
and, all too often, conservative,
ward

--------------------------------------------------------
Everything is always the worst it's ever been.

-----------------------------------------------------
"The rights and liberties that our founding fathers
wrote into the Declaration of Independence and the
Constitution were meant for all people. ... It is
time that our nation realized that a significant
portion of our society is today excluded and that
laws need to be written and enforced to ensure that
lesbians and gays are not discriminated against in
employment, public accommodations and housing."
-- Barry Goldwater
-----------------------------------------------------
.

User: "Ward Stewart"
Title: Re: Ten Commandments fight probably going to US Supreme Court	09 Aug 2003 07:51:31 PM

On Sat, 09 Aug 2003 19:20:09 GMT, Bill wrote:

On Sat, 09 Aug 2003 18:41:08 GMT, Ward Stewart
<wstewart@hawaii.rr.com> wrote:

On Sat, 9 Aug 2003 12:19:36 -0500, Gray Shockley
<gray-11@cybercoffee.org> wrote:

On Sat, 9 Aug 2003 9:26:12 -0500, Ninure Saunders wrote
(in message
<RainbowChristiannohate-0908030937590001@h-69-3-219-204.chcgilgm.covad.net>):

Examples, please.

Gray Shockley

Three hundred plus years of exactly what it described above -- as a
reference, the history of these united states.

During the last fifty or so years this has been changing -- changint
with a back-ground noise of shrieking by the ill informed, hateful
and, all too often, conservative,

All boats rise in the tide that elevates the white boat.

The native American's boats rose with the tide that "elevated the
white boat?"
An almost perfectly stupid comment!
ward
and BTW PLONK

But in your AIDS addled mind it's always the opposite of homosexual
that is unknowing, ill informed, bigoted and racist. How could it be
any other way...YOU THINK!

Though you seem to be quite satisfied with your present condition.
Free to cruise the public men's rest rooms of Waikiki beach (in your
thong.) That's doubtless, a perfect life for you.

ward

--------------------------------------------------------
Everything is always the worst it's ever been.

------------------------------------------------
"Marital sex tends toward the boring end...
Generally, it doesn't deliver the kind of
sheer sexual pleasure that homosexual sex does.
-Paul Cameron
Rolling Stone, March 18, 1999
------------------------------------------------
.

User: "Bill"
Title: Re: Ten Commandments fight probably going to US Supreme Court	09 Aug 2003 09:14:22 PM

On Sun, 10 Aug 2003 00:51:31 GMT, Ward Stewart
<wstewart@hawaii.rr.com> wrote:

On Sat, 09 Aug 2003 19:20:09 GMT, Bill wrote:

On Sat, 09 Aug 2003 18:41:08 GMT, Ward Stewart
<wstewart@hawaii.rr.com> wrote:

On Sat, 9 Aug 2003 12:19:36 -0500, Gray Shockley
<gray-11@cybercoffee.org> wrote:

On Sat, 9 Aug 2003 9:26:12 -0500, Ninure Saunders wrote
(in message
<RainbowChristiannohate-0908030937590001@h-69-3-219-204.chcgilgm.covad.net>):

Examples, please.

Gray Shockley

Three hundred plus years of exactly what it described above -- as a
reference, the history of these united states.

During the last fifty or so years this has been changing -- changint
with a back-ground noise of shrieking by the ill informed, hateful
and, all too often, conservative,

All boats rise in the tide that elevates the white boat.

The native American's boats rose with the tide that "elevated the
white boat?"

You homos really shouldn't be trying to coattail on the alleged plight
of the so called native Americans. They hate you more than do the
blacks who told you to *****!

An almost perfectly stupid comment!

Quoting yourself.

ward

and BTW PLONK

Ooooooowwwaaaaaa that hurts me! But I know you'll be back commenting
on my post in a couple of days -- you always come back. You have a
thing for me. It pisses you that I don't do queers (even after you
offered airfare;-)
BTW - what I said below still goes:

ward

--------------------------------------------------------
Everything is always the worst it's ever been.

User: "Gray Shockley"
Title: Re: Ten Commandments fight probably going to US Supreme Court	09 Aug 2003 11:16:28 PM

On Sat, 9 Aug 2003 21:14:22 -0500, Bill wrote
(in message <f08d7f2d8994c249ed11a783e3114e33@TeraNews>):

You sure do seem interested in it. /Very/ interested in it.
It's boring, you're boring.
<plonk>
You're not the wave of the future, boy.
Gray Shockley
--------------------------------------------------------
"They imagine they're the wave of the future,
but it's only sewage flowing downhill."
- Lois McMaster Bujold
.

User: "David Davis"
Title: Re: Ten Commandments fight probably going to US Supreme Court	10 Aug 2003 11:56:07 AM

Bill wrote:

On Sun, 10 Aug 2003 00:51:31 GMT, Ward Stewart
<wstewart@hawaii.rr.com> wrote:

On Sat, 09 Aug 2003 19:20:09 GMT, Bill wrote:

On Sat, 09 Aug 2003 18:41:08 GMT, Ward Stewart
<wstewart@hawaii.rr.com> wrote:

On Sat, 9 Aug 2003 12:19:36 -0500, Gray Shockley
<gray-11@cybercoffee.org> wrote:

On Sat, 9 Aug 2003 9:26:12 -0500, Ninure Saunders wrote
(in message
<RainbowChristiannohate-0908030937590001@h-69-3-219-204.chcgilgm.covad.net>):

Examples, please.

Gray Shockley

Three hundred plus years of exactly what it described above -- as a
reference, the history of these united states.

During the last fifty or so years this has been changing -- changint
with a back-ground noise of shrieking by the ill informed, hateful
and, all too often, conservative,

All boats rise in the tide that elevates the white boat.

The native American's boats rose with the tide that "elevated the
white boat?"

You homos really shouldn't be trying to coattail on the alleged plight
of the so called native Americans. They hate you more than do the
blacks who told you to *****!

And have made people who faught for your rights feel ashamed
for doing so.

"I still hear people say that I should not be talking about the rights
of lesbian and gay people and I should stick to the issue of racial
justice. But I hasten to remind them that Martin Luther King Jr. said,
'Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere.'"
"I appeal to everyone who believes in Martin Luther King Jr.'s dream
to make room at the table of brother- and sisterhood for lesbian and
gay people." - Coretta Scott King.

.

User: "Tasos"
Title: Street treat	10 Aug 2003 12:13:00 PM

http://www.canoe.com/NewsStand/TorontoSun/News/home.html
Sun, August 10, 2003
Street treat
Crowds line up for Taste of Danforth
By SARAH GREEN, TORONTO SUN
Heading to Taste of the Danforth today? Don't make the same mistake
Toronto's Patricia Smith made yesterday.
"She started eating right away," her sister Charlotte, 38, said with a
laugh. "I told her to pace herself."
"I'm full," said Patricia, who celebrated her "29 -- again" birthday
yesterday. "We've only gone a block."
The sisters were among an estimated 500,000 to 600,000 people to savour
the 10th annual Taste of the Danforth yesterday -- the biggest day of
the weekend-long street party, which ends at 9 p.m. today.
And like the Smith sisters, people were in the mood to celebrate in the
hot sun after living for weeks under the dark cloud of SARS.
"I work at a hospital so we're still screening," said Patricia, who
works in administration at Princess Margaret. "It's nice to see a bunch
of people together without masks."
ALL THE HEAT OF GREECE
With the humidity yesterday, temperatures felt more like Greece than
Greektown, matching the 31C heat in Athens.
Danforth Ave. was closed from Broadview to Jones Aves. and transformed
into a 2.5 km buffet where 100 restaurants lured hungry patrons with
meat sizzling on sidewalk grills and sticky sweet pastries.
Taste of the Danforth is most famous for Greek food, such as the chicken
souvlaki and spinach pies Ahmet Saridag served up outside the Palace on
neighbouring Pape Ave.
There were also tastes for other cravings, from sushi and corn on the
cob to frappuccinos and tofu. There were even orgasms for sale -- to
those of legal drinking age.
"They get a taste of Indian, Chinese. There's Thai, there's Greek," said
Kiran Singh, whose parents have owned Sher-E-Punjab restaurant for 29 years.
The restaurant's preparations for Taste began a month ago, with work
going into overtime in the last two weeks.
"It's all anyone talks about all year," Singh said.
The busy weekend is much needed after SARS stalled business in the
spring -- a slowdown worse than previous recessions, said Singh's
mother, Malkit.
There were worries about the weather, with rain and thunderstorms
darkening the weekend forecast, but even Friday night's shower couldn't
dampen the fun.
"Everyone was out with umbrellas," Singh said. "They were lined up
ordering food in the pouring rain."
Since the festival's launch 10 years ago, there has only been one hour
of rain, spokesman Sue Graham-Nutter said.
It's not just luck. When planning the first event, organizers researched
weather patterns to choose the weekend with the most favourable conditions.
The festival is already bigger than last year, when more than a million
people joined the three-day party, Graham-Nutter said.
"One of these days we'd like more land," she said. "We need to go
further east."
There's more than food at the party. Yesterday, there were samplings of
music, road hockey, clothing, books, even rock climbing.
MORE THAN A WORLD OF FOOD
"Taste can be about a number of different things," said Joe Bruno, owner
of Alchemy clothing and jewelry store, which had a weekend sidewalk sale.
"Some still think there's only Greek restaurants (on Danforth). There's
a lot of cafes, bars and boutiques."
Toronto's James Beeksma, 30, brought a date named Cassandra to the
Danforth, but apparently his fiancee won't mind.
Cassandra is a blowup doll Beeksma carried on his shoulders as his
friends incorporated Taste of the Danforth into his bachelor party.
Beeksma also collected 500 signatures on his T-shirt.
"I'm getting a positive reaction," said Beeksma, who gets married next
week. "I'm on my second shirt and I've only gone a block."
"He's a good sport," said his buddy, Ian Barrett, 30, adding the display
was "not as humiliating as we probably thought it would be."
There was also a serious side to the festival yesterday. Politicians
mixed with potential voters and petitions touching on everything from
gay marriage to public transit circulated.
As eight-year-old Brianne enjoyed a popsicle after climbing a 24-foot
rock wall, Toronto's Eleanor Troup said she hoped her daughter would
take home an important lesson.
"It's a good way for kids to see the cultural diversity," Troup said,
"to taste things they wouldn't normally taste."
.

User: "Gray Shockley"
Title: Re: Ten Commandments fight probably going to US Supreme Court	09 Aug 2003 01:51:00 PM

On Sat, 9 Aug 2003 13:41:08 -0500, Ward Stewart wrote
(in message <5e5ajv0vok11p9eeavmck8ujretv4jbh97@4ax.com>):

On Sat, 9 Aug 2003 12:19:36 -0500, Gray Shockley
<gray-11@cybercoffee.org> wrote:

On Sat, 9 Aug 2003 9:26:12 -0500, Ninure Saunders wrote
(in message
<RainbowChristiannohate-0908030937590001@h-69-3-219-204.chcgilgm.covad.net>
):

Examples, please.

Gray Shockley

Three hundred plus years of exactly what it described above -- as a
reference, the history of these united states.

Read for content.
"dounding <sic> fathers" is a very specific group of men.
The "dounding <sic> fathers" did not - surprise! - live any 300 years.
And one of my greatgrandmothers took the guided tour from North Carolina to
Oklahoma so I'm certainly not taking up for the treaty-breakers and murderers
(if not genocidests (new word?)) but I'd still like some examples of:
--------------------------------------------------------

The dounding Fathers for the most part had no little difficulty in
eliminating (murdering) the Native populations of North America,

--------------------------------------------------------
Gray Shockley
-------------------------------------------------
Pain is evitable but suffering is optional.

During the last fifty or so years this has been changing -- changint
with a back-ground noise of shrieking by the ill informed, hateful
and, all too often, conservative,

ward

--------------------------------------------------------
Everything is always the worst it's ever been.

User: "Ward Stewart"
Title: Re: Ten Commandments fight probably going to US Supreme Court	09 Aug 2003 05:36:19 PM

On Sat, 9 Aug 2003 13:51:00 -0500, Gray Shockley
<gray-11@cybercoffee.org> wrote:

On Sat, 9 Aug 2003 13:41:08 -0500, Ward Stewart wrote
(in message <5e5ajv0vok11p9eeavmck8ujretv4jbh97@4ax.com>):

On Sat, 9 Aug 2003 12:19:36 -0500, Gray Shockley
<gray-11@cybercoffee.org> wrote:

On Sat, 9 Aug 2003 9:26:12 -0500, Ninure Saunders wrote
(in message
<RainbowChristiannohate-0908030937590001@h-69-3-219-204.chcgilgm.covad.net>
):

Examples, please.

Gray Shockley

Three hundred plus years of exactly what it described above -- as a
reference, the history of these united states.

Read for content.

"dounding <sic> fathers" is a very specific group of men.

WOW, Ninure had a spell-checker lame -- try to pay attention to the
questions before us and do not let your already feeble argumentation
die over a misspelling!

The "dounding <sic> fathers" did not - surprise! - live any 300 years.

Who in hell said that they did -- HOWEVER they acted after 150 years
of Europeans in America - they HAD a history and not a very nice one!
ward
-----------------------------------------------------
"The rights and liberties that our founding fathers
wrote into the Declaration of Independence and the
Constitution were meant for all people. ... It is
time that our nation realized that a significant
portion of our society is today excluded and that
laws need to be written and enforced to ensure that
lesbians and gays are not discriminated against in
employment, public accommodations and housing."
-- Barry Goldwater
-----------------------------------------------------
.

User: "Al Klein"
Title: Re: Ten Commandments fight probably going to US Supreme Court	10 Aug 2003 11:50:03 PM

On Sun, 10 Aug 2003 1:02:07 -0500, Gray Shockley
<gray-11@cybercoffee.org> posted in alt.atheism:

On Sat, 9 Aug 2003 13:51:00 -0500, Gray Shockley
<gray-11@cybercoffee.org> posted in alt.education:

And one of my greatgrandmothers took the guided tour from North Carolina
to
Oklahoma so I'm certainly not taking up for the treaty-breakers and
murderers
(if not genocidests (new word?)) but I'd still like some examples of:

On Sun, 10 Aug 2003 0:43:35 -0500, Al Klein wrote
(in message <3qmbjvkgpch18dd51ua5gqcch11srv66ed@Pern.rk>):

Ever hear the phrase, "The Trail of Tears"?

AKA

...the guided tour from North Carolina to Oklahoma ...

It was so obvious that I thought it unnecessary to spell it out.

I'm wrong again [sigh].

No, I was just using a sledge hammer to get your attention. You post
a prime example, then you ignore it.
--
"If anyone comes to me, and does not hate his father, mother, wife, brothers, and sisters and even himself, he cannot be my disciple."
Luke 14:26
(random sig, produced by SigChanger)
rukbat at optonline dot net
.

User: "David Davis"
Title: Re: Ten Commandments fight probably going to US Supreme Court	09 Aug 2003 05:19:08 PM

Bill wrote:

On Sat, 09 Aug 2003 18:41:08 GMT, Ward Stewart
<wstewart@hawaii.rr.com> wrote:

On Sat, 9 Aug 2003 12:19:36 -0500, Gray Shockley
<gray-11@cybercoffee.org> wrote:

On Sat, 9 Aug 2003 9:26:12 -0500, Ninure Saunders wrote
(in message
<RainbowChristiannohate-0908030937590001@h-69-3-219-204.chcgilgm.covad.net>):

Examples, please.

Gray Shockley

Three hundred plus years of exactly what it described above -- as a
reference, the history of these united states.

During the last fifty or so years this has been changing -- changint
with a back-ground noise of shrieking by the ill informed, hateful
and, all too often, conservative,

All boats rise in the tide that elevates the white boat.

You finally coming out of the closet and announcing to the world
you are black Bill Taylor? Or are you still ashamed of your race?
Isn't that a racist?

Jealous? We all know true homophobes, pedophobes like you
want to cruse the beach butt naked wagging like a dog to
flash little boys in hopes you can recruit them to your perverted
Republican lifestyle.

.

User: "James T. Brown"
Title: Re: Ten Commandments fight probably going to US Supreme Court	09 Aug 2003 01:00:18 PM

On Sat, 9 Aug 2003 12:19:36 -0500, Gray Shockley
<gray-11@cybercoffee.org> wrote:

On Sat, 9 Aug 2003 9:26:12 -0500, Ninure Saunders wrote
(in message
<RainbowChristiannohate-0908030937590001@h-69-3-219-204.chcgilgm.covad.net>):

Examples, please.

FYI -- The poster is a racist welfare queen from the south side of
Chicago. One who tries, though in vain, to hide behind HER special
kind of (black feminist lesbian) religion. Generally her post are so
poorly presented grammar and spelling wise, that they are
incomprehensible.

Gray Shockley
--------------------------------------------------------
Everything is always the worst it's ever been.

User: "Bob LeChevalier"
Title: Re: Ten Commandments fight probably going to US Supreme Court	10 Aug 2003 11:09:00 AM

James T. Brown wrote:

FYI -- The poster is a racist welfare queen from the south side of
Chicago. One who tries, though in vain, to hide behind HER special
kind of (black feminist lesbian) religion.

incomplete sentence

Generally her post are

agreement error

poorly presented grammar and spelling wise,

You should talk.
lojbab
--
lojbab

Bob LeChevalier, Founder, The Logical Language Group
(Opinions are my own; I do not speak for the organization.)
Artificial language Loglan/Lojban: http://www.lojban.org
.

User: "Al Klein"
Title: Re: Ten Commandments fight probably going to US Supreme Court	10 Aug 2003 12:40:24 AM

On Sat, 09 Aug 2003 18:00:18 GMT, James T. Brown posted in
alt.atheism:

GRAMMATICAL ERROR ALERT!
--
"A stupid man's report of what a clever man says is never accurate because he
unconsciously translates what he hears into something he can understand."
-- Bertrand Russell.
(random sig, produced by SigChanger)
rukbat at optonline dot net
.

User: "David Davis"
Title: Re: Ten Commandments fight probably going to US Supreme Court	09 Aug 2003 05:38:56 PM

James, T., Brown wrote:

On Sat, 9 Aug 2003 12:19:36 -0500, Gray Shockley
<gray-11@cybercoffee.org> wrote:

On Sat, 9 Aug 2003 9:26:12 -0500, Ninure Saunders wrote
(in message
<RainbowChristiannohate-0908030937590001@h-69-3-219-204.chcgilgm.covad.net>):

Examples, please.

FYI -- The poster is a racist welfare queen

Welfare queen, and she is a racist, also you have said that blacks
should not have admission based on their being black, and she is a
racist? Your lot have adopted this new approach that if the slave
demands equal rights they are a bigot. That if you speak up and
demand equal rights you are a bigot, and if someone want to stop
your lot from taking away others rights they are bigots. Your lot
use the word bigot, like the KKK saying a city council are full of
bigots for not allowing them in a parade.

from the south side of
Chicago. One who tries, though in vain, to hide behind HER special
kind of (black feminist lesbian) religion. Generally her post are so
poorly presented grammar and spelling wise, that they are
incomprehensible.

Gray Shockley
--------------------------------------------------------
Everything is always the worst it's ever been.

User: "David Davis"
Title: Re: Ten Commandments fight probably going to US Supreme Court	09 Aug 2003 05:43:38 PM

James, T., Brown wrote:
Cute Bill Taylor, now you are James Brown a black passin
as a white calling a black a welfare queen, damn you are full
of self loathing, you give uncle Tom a whole new meaning, and
an hour and 20 minutes later to turn into Bill again. Damn
Bill is that crack getting to your brain?

.

User: ""
Title: Re: Ten Commandments fight probably going to US Supreme Court	09 Aug 2003 09:08:32 AM

James T. Brown wrote:

:|Religion was not a problem in the eyes of the founding fathers. They
:|had no difficulty at all discussing religion and even including
:|religious statements in the very documents which direct our society.
:|They saw the value of moral guidelines in the working of a society.
:|Are you more wise as an individual than they were collectively? No
:|need to answer, really. Your Post speaks very loudly about what you
:|are.

You mean like this:
"Guard against those men who make a great noise about religion, when
choosing your representatives"
http://members.tripod.com/~candst/leland5.htm
John Leland (1754-1841) was a Baptist preacher whose life involved writing
about and preaching the gospel of Jesus Christ and about the proper
relationship between religion and government. In the latter passion, Leland
agreed with the position of Thomas Jefferson and James Madison, both of
whom he knew personally. Leland spent approximately 14 years in Virginia
from 1776 to 1790-91. He was a major leader of the Baptists in Virginia. He
helped Madison by rounding up support for the defeat of the assessment bill
in Virginia in 1784-86, and by supporting the ratification of the new
constitution (only after being assured that Madison did favor the addition
of a bill of rights), He worked to get Madison elected (over Patrick
Henry's hand-picked James Monroe) to the House of Representatives of the
First Federal Congress. He returned to his home state of Massachusetts in
the winter of 1790-91, where he remained an active minister and champion of
separation of church and state and disestablishment till his death in 1841.
He wrote articles against establishment while in Massachusetts and
testified before the Massachusetts legislature on at least one occasion.
Excerpt from July 4th Oration by John Leland, July 5, 1802.
[Emphasis added]
.. . . Disdain mean suspicion, but cherish manly jealousy; be always jealous
of your liberty, your rights. Nip the first bud of intrusion on your
constitution. Be not devoted to men; let measures be your object, and
estimate men according to the measures they pursue. Never promote men who
seek after a state-established religion; it is spiritual tyranny--the worst
of despotism. It is turnpiking the way to heaven by human law, in order to
establish ministerial gates to collect toll. It converts religion into a
principle of state policy, and the gospel into merchandise. Heaven forbids
the bans of marriage between church and state; their embraces therefore,
must be unlawful. ****Guard against those men who make a great noise about
religion, in choosing representatives. It is electioneering. If they knew
the nature and worth of religion, they would not debauch it to such
shameful purposes. If pure religion is the criterion to denominate
candidates, those who make a noise about it must be rejected; for their
wrangle about it, proves that they are void of it. Let honesty, talents and
quick despatch, characterise the men of your choice. Such men will have a
sympathy with their constituents, and will be willing to come to the light,
that their deeds may be examined. . . .****
Source of Information: Excerpt from "July 4th Oration by John Leland, July
5, 1802". The Writings of John Leland, Edited by L.F. Greene, Arno Press &
The New York Times New York (1969) pp.260-270) Originally published as: The
Writings Of The Late Elder John Leland Including Some Events In His Life,
Written By Himself, With Additional Sketches &c. By Miss L.F. Greene,
Lanesboro, Mass. Printed By G.W. Wood, 29 Gold Street, New York 1845.
.

User: "James T. Brown"
Title: Re: Ten Commandments fight probably going to US Supreme Court	09 Aug 2003 11:18:14 AM

On Sat, 09 Aug 2003 10:08:32 -0400,

wrote:

James T. Brown wrote:

You mean like this:

(...)
Two brief excerpts (deleted for brevity here -- readable in your
original post) from the moral history of this nation do not indicate a
dogma or even a policy They are merely the thinking of those who made
the statements. I again call you attention to the numerous allusions
to deity in the governing documents of this great nation. The US is a
nation based on morals which may or may not be part of any particular
religious belief. They are , however, without question the creed of
all good men who practice rectitude of conduct and character.
.

User: ""
Title: Re: Ten Commandments fight probably going to US Supreme Court	09 Aug 2003 02:11:27 PM

James T. Brown wrote:

:|On Sat, 09 Aug 2003 10:08:32 -0400,

wrote:
:|
:|>
:|>James T. Brown wrote:
:|>
:|>
:|>>:|Religion was not a problem in the eyes of the founding fathers. They
:|>>:|had no difficulty at all discussing religion and even including
:|>>:|religious statements in the very documents which direct our society.
:|>>:|They saw the value of moral guidelines in the working of a society.
:|>>:|Are you more wise as an individual than they were collectively? No
:|>>:|need to answer, really. Your Post speaks very loudly about what you
:|>>:|are.
:|>
:|>You mean like this:
:|
:|(...)
:|
:|Two brief excerpts (deleted for brevity here -- readable in your
:|original post) from the moral history of this nation do not indicate a
:|dogma or even a policy They are merely the thinking of those who made
:|the statements.

Oh I can provide you with immense amounts of primary source documentation
that would add to that one excerpt I provided.

:|I again call you attention to the numerous allusions
:|to deity in the governing documents of this great nation. The US is a
:|nation based on morals which may or may not be part of any particular
:|religious belief. They are , however, without question the creed of
:|all good men who practice rectitude of conduct and character.

I would love to see you point out these "numerous allusions" to which you
refer:
Here is an example that sure doesn't contain much in the direction you are
leaning:
**************************************************************
BIG FUSS OVER NOTHING
REAL AND IMAGINED REFERENCES TO GOD, CHRISTIANITY
AND RELIGION and lack THEREOF IN OBVIOUS PLACES IN
FIVE DOCUMENTS FROM THE FOUNDING PERIOD
OF OUR HISTORY
One constantly runs into comments by certain segments of those who post in
Usenet that this nation was founded on religious, i.e. Protestant Christian
principles. When pushed to show where such principles can be found they
mumble something abut the Declaration of Independence, sometimes the
Constitution and or Bible.
I have to wonder if these people every really read those documents. I
decided to look over those documents and to provide any and all mentions of
anything that could even remotely be the things these people are referring
to. I also provided some obvious places one might expect to find such
references, but there were none. In addition, I provided the wording that
actually broke unions and alliances between church (religion) and state
(Govt.)
What follows, emphasized by capitalizing are any and all mention and real
or imagined references or connections to Christianity and/or religion.
*****************************************
DECLARATION OF INDEPENDENCE (1776)
EXCERPTS FROM
Page URL:
http://www.archives.gov/exhibit_hall/charters_of_freedom/declaration/declaration_transcription.html
When in the Course of human events, it becomes necessary for one people to
dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another, and to
assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to
which the LAWS OF NATURE AND OF NATURE'S GOD entitle them, a decent respect
to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes
which impel them to the separation.
We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal,
that they are endowed by THEIR CREATOR with certain unalienable Rights,
that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.--That to
secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their
just powers from the consent of the governed, --. . .
We, therefore, the Representatives of the united States of America, in
General Congress, Assembled, appealing to the SUPREME JUDGE OF THE WORLD
for the rectitude of our intentions, do, in the Name, and by Authority of
the good People of these Colonies, solemnly publish and declare, That these
United Colonies are, and of Right ought to be Free and Independent States;
that they are Absolved from all Allegiance to the British Crown, and that
all political connection between them and the State of Great Britain, is
and ought to be totally dissolved; and that as Free and Independent States,
they have full Power to levy War, conclude Peace, contract Alliances,
establish Commerce, and to do all other Acts and Things which Independent
States may of right do. And for the support of this Declaration, with a
firm reliance on the protection of DIVINE PROVIDENCE, we mutually pledge to
each other our Lives, our Fortunes and our sacred Honor.
*****************************************
That's it. In the entire document sixteen words. No authority given
religion in the affairs of men. Why, it even mentions that the power of
government comes not from God but the people. This particular document did
mot form or found a government. It was a document designed to appeal to
Europeans, and to elicit aid and support from the people and governments of
Europe. Much ado about nothing.
*****************************************
ARTICLES OF CONFEDERATION (1777)
EXCERPT FROM
http://www.yale.edu/lawweb/avalon/artconf.htm
ARTICLE I
III The said States hereby severally enter into a firm league of friendship
with each other, for their common defense, the security of their liberties,
and their mutual and general welfare, binding themselves to assist each
other, against all force offered to, or attacks made upon them, or any of
them, on account of RELIGION, sovereignty, trade, or any other pretense
whatever.
And Whereas it hath pleased the GREAT GOVERNOR OF THE WORLD to incline the
hearts of the legislatures we respectively represent in Congress, to
approve of, and to authorize us to ratify the said Articles of
Confederation and perpetual Union. Know Ye that we the undersigned
delegates, by virtue of the power and authority to us given for that
purpose, do by these presents, in the name and in behalf of our respective
constituents, fully and entirely ratify and confirm each and every of the
said Articles of Confederation and perpetual Union, and all and singular
the matters and things therein contained: And we do further solemnly plight
and engage the faith of our respective constituents, that they shall abide
by the determinations of the United States in Congress assembled, on all
questions, which by the said Confederation are submitted to them. And that
the Articles thereof shall be inviolably observed by the States we
respectively represent, and that the Union shall be perpetual.
In Witness whereof we have hereunto set our hands in Congress. Done at
Philadelphia in the State of Pennsylvania the ninth day of July in the YEAR
OF OUR LORD One Thousand Seven Hundred and Seventy-Eight, and in the Third
Year of the independence of America.
Agreed to by Congress 15 November 1777 In force after ratification by
Maryland, 1 March, 1781
*****************************************
That's it. In the entire document just TEN words. While this particular
document did create a government of a sorts, a loose confederation of
several independent states (nations) as can be seen this document did not
form any kind of union or alliances between govt and religion. It gave no
power or authority to religion in civil matters nor did it give any power
or authority to the civil government in matters of religion. The evolution
is evident.. Less real or imagined references to God, Religion, etc in this
document than in the DOI.
*****************************************
UNITED STATES CONSTITUTION (1787, 1791)
EXCERPTS FROM
http://www.law.cornell.edu/constitution/constitution.overview.html
ARTICLE I
Section 7. . . . If any bill shall not be returned by the President within
ten days (SUNDAYS EXCEPTED) after it shall have been presented to him, the
same shall be a law, in like manner as if he had signed it, unless the
Congress by their adjournment prevent its return, in which case it shall
not be a law.
ARTICLE II
Section 1. . . . Before he enter on the execution of his office, he shall
take the following oath or affirmation:--"I do solemnly swear (or affirm)
that I will faithfully execute the office of President of the United
States, and will to the best of my ability, preserve, protect and defend
the Constitution of the United States."
ARTICLE VI. The Senators and Representatives before mentioned, and the
members of the several state legislatures, and all executive and judicial
officers, both of the United States and of the several states, shall be
bound by oath or affirmation, to support this Constitution; but NO
RELIGIOUS TEST shall ever be required as a qualification to any office or
public trust under the United States.
AT THE END OF THE DOCUMENT BEFORE THE LIST OF SIGNERS:
Done in convention by the unanimous consent of the states present the
seventeenth day of September in the YEAR OF OUR LORD one thousand seven
hundred and eighty seven and of the independence of the United States of
America the twelfth.
ADDED DECEMBER 15, 1791:
AMENDMENT I. . . Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of
religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof;
*****************************************
That's it. Absolutely no reference to God, Christianity or religion, except
as negatives on the government, denying alliances and unions between church
(religion) and state (govt.)
The evolution is complete. By following the three documents you will see
the evolution of an intent to separate church and state.
Some point to the words "Year of our Lord" and "Sundays excepted" as proof
or at least of evidence that the founders didn't want to separate church
and state.
I offer the following items:
(1) The Rev Jasper Adams, president of the College of Charleston, was the
second person to advance the idea of Sunday's excepted in his February 1833
sermon, later published, entitled The Relation of Christianity to Civil
Government in the United States. ( U S Senator Frelinghuysen in a speech
before the Senate in 1830 was the first) and the first to advance Year of
Our Lord as having made links between the U S Constitution and religion in
general or Christianity specifically. Adams so 46 years after the U S
Constitution was framed 45 years after it was ratified, 44 years after our
government began operating under it and 42 years after the "BORs" were
added to it.
The above took place long after the founding of this nation. No founder had
ever advanced either of those theories. in fact, one of the few founders
still alive at that time, James Madison disagreed with Jasper Adams's
opinions on this matter.
Who do you think was in the better position to know?
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(2) Sundays Excepted
http://candst.tripod.com/sundays.htm
"Sunday Excepted" & "Year of Our lord" (1830-1833)
http://candst.tripod.com/sundays2.htm
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(3) Study Guide for The Roots of American Democracy
http://members.tripod.com/~candst/studygd8.htm

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(4) Madison's Arguments Against Special Religious Sanction of American
Government (1792)
http://members.tripod.com/~candst/madlib.htm
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(5) How often did the founders quote the Bible?
http://members.tripod.com/~candst/tnppage/arg9.htm
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(6) Did Montesquieu base his theory of separation of powers on the Bible?
http://members.tripod.com/~candst/tnppage/montesquieu.htm
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(7) Federal officials take their oaths upon a Bible, and use the words "so
help me God."http://members.tripod.com/~candst/tnppage/arg11.htm
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What other documents do you want to discuss?
.

User: "James T. Brown"
Title: Re: Ten Commandments fight probably going to US Supreme Court	09 Aug 2003 03:08:48 PM

On Sat, 09 Aug 2003 15:11:27 -0400,

wrote:

James T. Brown wrote:

:|On Sat, 09 Aug 2003 10:08:32 -0400,

Oh I can provide you with immense amounts of primary source documentation
that would add to that one excerpt I provided.

(...)
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What other docume