On Mon, 21 Mar 2005 23:58:05 GMT, Jim07D5 <Jim07D5@nospam.net> wrote:

On Mon, 21 Mar 2005 22:06:48 GMT, Jim07D5 <Jim07D5@nospam.net> wrote:

On Mon, 21 Mar 2005 21:21:57 GMT, Jim07D5 <Jim07D5@nospam.net> wrote:

I think maybe some folks should go here and check out the videos.
She certainly doesn't appear to be in a presistent vegetative state.
If she responds with expressions of discomfort to the swab test she
must be suffering the starvation and dehydration terribly.

I suggest that as you form your medical opinion, you do some research
on the conscious experiences of people lacking cerebellums.

"...consider the words of Judge Chris Altenbernd, writing for the 2nd
District Court of Appeal four years ago.

``Over the span of this last decade, Theresa's brain has deteriorated
because of the lack of oxygen it suffered at the time of the heart
attack. By mid 1996, the CAT scans of her brain showed a severely
abnormal structure. At this point, much of her cerebral cortex is
simply gone and has been replaced by cerebral spinal fluid. "

http://www.tampatrib.com/News/MGBJ1RK6E6E.html

How does that apply to this particular case?

atheist@home#1554

That *is* this particular case. Did you follow the link?

I did but I'm having a case of the stupids today.
I was thinking Terri rather than Theresa.
The question I have is would she suffer through the process?
I don't know and don't have anything to do with it either way but feel
it's a pretty slippery slope to start down.
Did you see the videos?

atheist@home#1554

Yes, I have seen them before. I have some connection. My sister was in
hospice and passed away about 16 months ago,

Ouch :-(

in the same hospice (Woodside, Pinellas Park, FL) and just down the hall from Terry
Schiavo. Rose was there for about 6 weeks, and filled us -- her
brothers and sister -- in on the action. The parents were hardly ever
to be seen. The husband was there frequently. They moved Terry to
another place when the picketers started to be threatening, but from a
news report, I see that she is back there now. My other sister is
still in St. Pete, less than 2 miles from the scene, and so I keep up.

I did read that the parents weren't there much but that the husband
was.
But I also read that the husband kept them away when he could.
And a conflicting story of course.
My understanding is that the husband has been pretty much an ***** and
actually had a physical encounter with a doctor who wanted to treat an
infection.
I don't have a clue as to what is actually true or false.
Like most things political I can choose the story I like best.

There are people trained to assess the neurological condition of
persons in these circumstances. Two attending physicians and a
court-appointed medical expert testified in the case, that she was (in
my lay terms) permanently unconscious because he cerebral cortex was
essentially gone (I'd say it "died" due to the initial oxygen
starvation, and was sloughed off as necrotic tissue.)

I posted this somewhere else:
http://bmj.bmjjournals.com/cgi/content/full/313/7048/13
There is also a link to a critique of the study.

Of course a court-appointed philosopher might raise the question of
how we know a person is or isn't conscious. THe rebuttal? How do we
know a rock is or isn't unconscious? We look, scientifically, for the
structures we have scientific reason to believe are needed.That's what
they are doing. Is the science advanced enough to know for sure? I
don't know. But several smart, impartial judges have agreed, it is.
Only the politicians and the religious-driven folks have disagreed.
Please note that I am not "pro-letting-Terry-die" AFAIAC, she has
died, already. It's just an exercise in keeping the remaining tissue
running, plus a whole lot of sad turmoil for the affect parties, some
political pissing on rocks and a test of our constitution.

I don't believe most people involved in the discussion are
"pro-letting-Terry-die."
The thing is however public opinion does matter.
Either side could be wrong imo and if there is even the remotest
possibility that a fellow human being may, by order of the state,
suffer an agonizing death we do not allow the worst among us to suffer
then I would be against pulling the tubes.
I also don't believe it likely that the experts who made the decision
took it lightly.
I just know that it's possible they could be wrong.
<Based on the limited information that I have>

On Mon, 21 Mar 2005 23:58:05 GMT, Jim07D5 <Jim07D5@nospam.net> wrote:

On Mon, 21 Mar 2005 22:06:48 GMT, Jim07D5 <Jim07D5@nospam.net> wrote:

On Mon, 21 Mar 2005 21:21:57 GMT, Jim07D5 <Jim07D5@nospam.net> wrote:

I think maybe some folks should go here and check out the videos.
She certainly doesn't appear to be in a presistent vegetative state.
If she responds with expressions of discomfort to the swab test she
must be suffering the starvation and dehydration terribly.

I suggest that as you form your medical opinion, you do some research
on the conscious experiences of people lacking cerebellums.

"...consider the words of Judge Chris Altenbernd, writing for the 2nd
District Court of Appeal four years ago.

``Over the span of this last decade, Theresa's brain has deteriorated
because of the lack of oxygen it suffered at the time of the heart
attack. By mid 1996, the CAT scans of her brain showed a severely
abnormal structure. At this point, much of her cerebral cortex is
simply gone and has been replaced by cerebral spinal fluid. "

http://www.tampatrib.com/News/MGBJ1RK6E6E.html

How does that apply to this particular case?

atheist@home#1554

That *is* this particular case. Did you follow the link?

I did but I'm having a case of the stupids today.
I was thinking Terri rather than Theresa.
The question I have is would she suffer through the process?
I don't know and don't have anything to do with it either way but feel
it's a pretty slippery slope to start down.
Did you see the videos?

atheist@home#1554

Yes, I have seen them before. I have some connection. My sister was in
hospice and passed away about 16 months ago,

Ouch :-(

in the same hospice (Woodside, Pinellas Park, FL) and just down the hall from Terry
Schiavo. Rose was there for about 6 weeks, and filled us -- her
brothers and sister -- in on the action. The parents were hardly ever
to be seen. The husband was there frequently. They moved Terry to
another place when the picketers started to be threatening, but from a
news report, I see that she is back there now. My other sister is
still in St. Pete, less than 2 miles from the scene, and so I keep up.

I did read that the parents weren't there much but that the husband
was.
But I also read that the husband kept them away when he could.
And a conflicting story of course.
My understanding is that the husband has been pretty much an ***** and
actually had a physical encounter with a doctor who wanted to treat an
infection.
I don't have a clue as to what is actually true or false.
Like most things political I can choose the story I like best.

There are people trained to assess the neurological condition of
persons in these circumstances. Two attending physicians and a
court-appointed medical expert testified in the case, that she was (in
my lay terms) permanently unconscious because he cerebral cortex was
essentially gone (I'd say it "died" due to the initial oxygen
starvation, and was sloughed off as necrotic tissue.)

I posted this somewhere else:
http://bmj.bmjjournals.com/cgi/content/full/313/7048/13
There is also a link to a critique of the study.

Of course a court-appointed philosopher might raise the question of
how we know a person is or isn't conscious. THe rebuttal? How do we
know a rock is or isn't unconscious? We look, scientifically, for the
structures we have scientific reason to believe are needed.That's what
they are doing. Is the science advanced enough to know for sure? I
don't know. But several smart, impartial judges have agreed, it is.
Only the politicians and the religious-driven folks have disagreed.
Please note that I am not "pro-letting-Terry-die" AFAIAC, she has
died, already. It's just an exercise in keeping the remaining tissue
running, plus a whole lot of sad turmoil for the affect parties, some
political pissing on rocks and a test of our constitution.

I don't believe most people involved in the discussion are
"pro-letting-Terry-die."
The thing is however public opinion does matter.
Either side could be wrong imo and if there is even the remotest
possibility that a fellow human being may, by order of the state,
suffer an agonizing death we do not allow the worst among us to suffer
then I would be against pulling the tubes.
I also don't believe it likely that the experts who made the decision
took it lightly.
I just know that it's possible they could be wrong.
<Based on the limited information that I have>

Also, I grant the always-present risk of slippery slope, but it is
slippery in both directions.

That it is.

BTW my sister had a peaceful, even happy end. Among her last words:
"Next time you see me, I'll be a blonde!"

I'm sorry for your loss but glad that she went peacefully.
That's pretty much what this is all about isn't?

On Mon, 21 Mar 2005 23:58:05 GMT, Jim07D5 <Jim07D5@nospam.net> wrote:

atheist@home.com said:

On Mon, 21 Mar 2005 22:06:48 GMT, Jim07D5 <Jim07D5@nospam.net> wrote:

atheist@home.com said:

On Mon, 21 Mar 2005 21:21:57 GMT, Jim07D5 <Jim07D5@nospam.net> wrote:

atheist@home.com said:

I think maybe some folks should go here and check out the videos.
She certainly doesn't appear to be in a presistent vegetative state.
If she responds with expressions of discomfort to the swab test she
must be suffering the starvation and dehydration terribly.

I suggest that as you form your medical opinion, you do some research
on the conscious experiences of people lacking cerebellums.

"...consider the words of Judge Chris Altenbernd, writing for the 2nd
District Court of Appeal four years ago.

``Over the span of this last decade, Theresa's brain has deteriorated
because of the lack of oxygen it suffered at the time of the heart
attack. By mid 1996, the CAT scans of her brain showed a severely
abnormal structure. At this point, much of her cerebral cortex is
simply gone and has been replaced by cerebral spinal fluid. "

http://www.tampatrib.com/News/MGBJ1RK6E6E.html

How does that apply to this particular case?

atheist@home#1554

That *is* this particular case. Did you follow the link?

I did but I'm having a case of the stupids today. I was thinking Terri
rather than Theresa. The question I have is would she suffer through the
process? I don't know and don't have anything to do with it either way
but feel it's a pretty slippery slope to start down. Did you see the
videos?

atheist@home#1554

Yes, I have seen them before. I have some connection. My sister was in
hospice and passed away about 16 months ago,

Ouch :-(

in the same hospice (Woodside, Pinellas Park, FL) and just down the hall
from Terry Schiavo. Rose was there for about 6 weeks, and filled us --
her brothers and sister -- in on the action. The parents were hardly ever
to be seen. The husband was there frequently. They moved Terry to another
place when the picketers started to be threatening, but from a news
report, I see that she is back there now. My other sister is still in St.
Pete, less than 2 miles from the scene, and so I keep up.

I did read that the parents weren't there much but that the husband was.
But I also read that the husband kept them away when he could. And a
conflicting story of course.
My understanding is that the husband has been pretty much an ***** and
actually had a physical encounter with a doctor who wanted to treat an
infection.
I don't have a clue as to what is actually true or false. Like most things
political I can choose the story I like best.

There are people trained to assess the neurological condition of persons
in these circumstances. Two attending physicians and a court-appointed
medical expert testified in the case, that she was (in my lay terms)
permanently unconscious because he cerebral cortex was essentially gone
(I'd say it "died" due to the initial oxygen starvation, and was sloughed
off as necrotic tissue.)

I posted this somewhere else:
http://bmj.bmjjournals.com/cgi/content/full/313/7048/13 There is also a
link to a critique of the study.

Of course a court-appointed philosopher might raise the question of how
we know a person is or isn't conscious. THe rebuttal? How do we know a
rock is or isn't unconscious? We look, scientifically, for the structures
we have scientific reason to believe are needed.That's what they are
doing. Is the science advanced enough to know for sure? I don't know. But
several smart, impartial judges have agreed, it is. Only the politicians
and the religious-driven folks have disagreed. Please note that I am not
"pro-letting-Terry-die" AFAIAC, she has died, already. It's just an
exercise in keeping the remaining tissue running, plus a whole lot of sad
turmoil for the affect parties, some political pissing on rocks and a
test of our constitution.

I don't believe most people involved in the discussion are
"pro-letting-Terry-die."
The thing is however public opinion does matter.

On Tue, 22 Mar 2005 05:59:33 GMT, Jim07D5 <Jim07D5@nospam.net> wrote:

On Tue, 22 Mar 2005 02:01:54 GMT, Jim07D5 <Jim07D5@nospam.net> wrote:

On Mon, 21 Mar 2005 17:10:50 -0600, "Mark K. Bilbo"
<alt-atheism@org.webmaster> wrote:

..

You mean you want lay persons to substitute their judgement in place of
trained experts based on a snippet of video?

It creates doubt in my mind.
http://bmj.bmjjournals.com/cgi/content/full/313/7048/13
"The vegetative state needs considerable skill to diagnose, requiring
assessment over a period of time; diagnosis cannot be made, even by
the most experienced clinician, from a bedside assessment. Accurate
diagnosis is possible but requires the skills of a multidisciplinary
team experienced in the management of people with complex
disabilities.

<...>

Is your mind a multi disciplinary team?

I don't understand the question.

You left out:

I provided a link.

"Results: Of the 40 patients referred as being in the vegetative
state, 17 (43%) were considered as having been misdiagnosed; seven of
these had been presumed to be vegetative for longer than one year,
including three for over four years. Most of the misdiagnosed patients
were blind or severely visually impaired. All patients remained
severely physically disabled, but nearly all were able to communicate
their preference in quality of life issues--some to a high level."

Has Terry done this communication, to your knowledge? Do you think
that the only tests have been visual?

I don't have a clue what sorts of tests have been done.
All I did was post a link to what I believe to be interesting
information.
Are you taking it personally?
If so why?

It just seems to me that any old one of us can have doubts, but
eventually, we have to trust the system.

To a point but never totally.

I have a book, Mean Justice by Edward Humes.
In the back is a list and information on a large number of people the
system has failed.
There are men who may well have been innocent but were executed after
numerous appeals because the system operates within often inflexible
rules.
It's pretty disturbing.
A man excuted despite the fact that prosecutors admitted he didn't do
the crime.
A man in Virginia who was denied a Supreme Court hearing despite the
fact that there was significant evidence of his innocence because his
lawyers were three days late filing the appeal as the state of
Virginia required.
The Supreme Court stated that it was a states rights issue.
The evidence was irrelevant.
In America prosecutors are required to prove beyond a reasonable doubt
that the accused is guilty.
If all the judges involved in this case agreed with the husband over
the years I could accept that as being beyond a reasonable doubt..
But is that the case?

And work to make it better, for sure. But putting the tube back in because we have doubts, well,
that means, where does it end? We die. We die slowly, ambiguously, but
we die. Should we keep those Terri-tissues metabolizing forever? We
probably could, or will be able too, someday.

I just don't *know* at this point that she is not suffering terrible
agony.

And frankly it's a bit odd to get jumped because I am concerned about
another human being.