| Topic: |
Religions > Atheism |
| User: |
"Gegenwart911" |
| Date: |
17 Oct 2007 08:02:33 AM |
| Object: |
Thanks be to God: nearly 4,000 US troops killed in Iraq! |
Religions and militaries. Ah, what cuddly bed fellows. Both
sustainable only through blind obedience and/or stupidity. Religious
people like to get in on Reason and they get their asses handed to
them. Soldiers go to war and they get killed. A just reward, I think.
They are, quite simply, disgusting- all of them- galivanting off to
kill/imprison/depose/maim anyone their CIC tells them to. And we are
to never question that. On no. No No No. Never question the soldiers.
They are our heroes.
Thats a ***** way of citizen life and you know it.
Its yet another dogma that has proven so effective with Americans. A
forum against religious dogma should consider all dogmas, and the US
military is even bigger than some ancient Egytian astrology that the
Hebrews stole. Soldiers should be held accountable for every action
they take. A declaration of war is not a free pass on morality. Orders
operate as the voice of God for these people and they expect us to
follow suit. Not this chick, hell no. Like the religious among us,
they will go to no jails and will suffer very little for the pain they
have inflicted. As a body of free-thinkers we can reject the premise
that gives them their immunity. We throw it in their faces and the
faces of policy makers and loyalists. Whatever foreign combatants
don't kill off deserve to be humiliated and ridiculed.
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| User: "Greywolf" |
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| Title: Re: Thanks be to God: nearly 4,000 US troops killed in Iraq! |
17 Oct 2007 09:03:33 AM |
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"Gegenwart911" <Gegenwart911@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1192626153.076464.175640@v23g2000prn.googlegroups.com...
Religions and militaries. Ah, what cuddly bed fellows. Both
sustainable only through blind obedience and/or stupidity. Religious
people like to get in on Reason and they get their asses handed to
them. Soldiers go to war and they get killed.
And at times soldiers on *both* sides being killed while devoutly
worshipping the very *same* deity and praying that they somehow survive the
conflict with both limbs and mind intact.
War is a necessary 'evil'. But the most noble reason to actually *go* to war
is to combat evil; whether it's an individual or an idea.
A just reward, I think.
They are, quite simply, disgusting- all of them- galivanting off to
kill/imprison/depose/maim anyone their CIC tells them to. And we are
to never question that. On no. No No No. Never question the soldiers.
They are our heroes.
Actually they are -- sometimes. And sometimes they do things that completely
shames their nation of origin. But the warrior most often has the most
principled of intentions, the noblest of ideals. It's the *leaders* of a
nation's warriors, like our current freakin' President and Vice President
who use their all but unconstrained powers for the most base of reasons --
imposing religious beliefs on a foreign people through coercive
'brainwashing', or for, say, cheap oil; just two use two examples -- who
should be publically 'flogged' (figuratively speaking) for causing such a
catastrophic level of death and destruction for their own, self-serving,
purposes.
Thats a ***** way of citizen life and you know it.
Its yet another dogma that has proven so effective with Americans. A
forum against religious dogma should consider all dogmas, and the US
military is even bigger than some ancient Egytian astrology that the
Hebrews stole. Soldiers should be held accountable for every action
they take. A declaration of war is not a free pass on morality.
You've got *that* right, sister! 'I was only following orders', doesn't
'fly' as an excuse any more, does it?
Orders
operate as the voice of God for these people and they expect us to
follow suit.
And certain *idiots* don't even take the time to consider the fact that it's
a human *being* dishing out orders in the name of deity -- and not the deity
itself!
Not this chick, hell no. Like the religious among us,
they will go to no jails and will suffer very little for the pain they
have inflicted.
Oh, if they have *any* kind of 'conscience', *they'll* pay! For the rest of
their lives, they will. And we *do* need to remember that warriors who have
undergone an *incredible* amount of strain and distress in combat may do, on
occasion, unsavory things -- like shooting a captured prisoner -- at times.
That is something the individual soldier will have to deal with from a
mental standpoint throughout the rest of his (or her) life. It comes with
the territory we call 'war'. Raping, shooting, torturing innocent
non-combatants, however, is a *entirely* different matter! Hell, it could,
in certain circles, be considered 'appropriate' to shoot the ***** or
bastards perpetrating such heinous activites -- depending on the
circumstances and situation. 'War is hell', some really smart dude
(Sherman?) once said. Better -- and I'm paraphrasing here -- 'It's a good
thing war is so horrible lest we grow to become too fond of it.' -- General
Robert E. Lee.
As a body of free-thinkers we can reject the premise
that gives them their immunity. We throw it in their faces and the
faces of policy makers and loyalists. Whatever foreign combatants
don't kill off deserve to be humiliated and ridiculed.
Nearly 4000 troops killed as a result of the weasels in power. And for
*what*? Makes you want double-over and lose your breakfast, doesn't it?
We are, unfortunately, living during the 'reign' of the worst President and
Vice-President 'combo' in all of American history. Let's just hope we elect
a new one in 2008 that will at least bring us *hope* that a better tomorrow
is on the horizon for this once great country of ours.
Greywolf
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| User: "Gegenwart911" |
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| Title: Re: Thanks be to God: nearly 4,000 US troops killed in Iraq! |
17 Oct 2007 03:41:50 PM |
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Greywolf-
Well, I guess we fundamentally disagree. I absolutely do not want to
lose my breakfast over some dead US soldiers, of all things. Thats
almost laughable. I say soldiers are not heroes, ever. You say they
are. Your attitude is kind of what I am trying to root up here (though
your response was well-mannered and well-stated). A member of any
military signs up and, in doing so, automatically agrees to be ruled
by something other than her own reason. She has already agreed to go
wherever and do whatever the CIC commands. When it comes to the
military, those are extremely high stakes- and one would just give up
her power of effective judgement?! Insane!
What is it worth to be flung off to foreign lands, suffer in abject
climates, be deprived of sleep, be shot at, kill people you know of
dont know to be innocent? What would someone have to pay you to do
that? As you watch your friends die or are yourself mutilated- what is
the price on these things? Well, there probably is no dollar amount
and military people know it. They do what they do for many reasons, I
am sure. I would say that chief among those, however, is to "serve"
some notion of their "nation" that they believe in. HOWEVER, that is a
convenient little fiction, isnt it. What they would wish to serve
neednt exist, they needn't actually improve it- they just need to feel
like heroes. And why would they not? This culture praises them with
every chance it gets. But there is nothing worthy of praise. They lock
themselves and the entire nation into a situation in which no one
profits. If we have a professional fighting force then we need someone
to fight. We need someone to buy up all the damn guns and bombs that
we make so we need a freaking war. War after War after War. And the
only argument is against politicians. Well, isnt that quaint. Has
anyone had any doubts over the last few centuries that politician is
another word for scumbag? Get over it.
War is not a necessary evil and it is not noble, nor do "warriors"
hold noble ideas. Ever. Not even should they fight NAZIS, Islamic
terrorists, Crusaders, Slave holders- NEVER NEVER. Show up on
somebody's doorstep with a gun and she stabs you in the throat with a
kitchen knife. That is her right but it is not commendable. It is
local, it makes no grand statements of nationhood. She protects her
body and the bodies of her children and family. Nothing more than
that. You fools with all your grandeur and bravado would never
understand that.
As far as the suffering of a murdering soldier- yeah, i hope her
conscience rips her up. But that is not good enough.
That is not justice and its justice, Justice, that we should find
noble.
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| User: "Greywolf" |
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| Title: Re: Thanks be to God: nearly 4,000 US troops killed in Iraq! |
17 Oct 2007 06:26:04 PM |
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"Gegenwart911" <Gegenwart911@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1192653710.795181.94910@z24g2000prh.googlegroups.com...
Greywolf-
Well, I guess we fundamentally disagree.
Hoo boy, we sure do. I view the soldier sent into battle to destroy the
murderering henchmen of a Hitler, destroy the murdering military thugs sent
in by a Saddam Hussein or some Serb President bent on undertaking a
modern-day version of some 'good ole', Old Testment-inspired 'ethnic
cleansing' or even some future soldier fighting to exterminate Christian
right-wing excesses. (And I mean here *excess* 'excesses' of the variety I'm
being exposed to out here in Northeast Wisconsin at this very moment.) as
performing a noble, just, nauseating task that you wish would never have to
be undertaken to begin with, but clearly acts of evil that need to be
halted; and with all the ferocity and speed men and women of good conscience
can possibly muster.
I absolutely do not want to
lose my breakfast over some dead US soldiers, of all things.
That's rather harsh. Could you say that if one of them happened to be your
father, husband, brother, or lover?
To be sure, there will always be the 'bad' soldier -- regardless of origin
of nation or ideology. War certainly brings out the worst in people. But it
often brings out the best in them as well. Even when they're on the opposing
side. Soldiers who refrain from shooting enemy soldiers when the conditions
of battle and the articles of war indicate the potential 'shooter or
shooters' have every right to do so, but out of a sense of humanity choose
not to do so and even order medical personnel tend to their wounded show
grace and nobleness. And most undeserving of being spit upon and ridiculed
for serving their country honorably. Blame the leaders who sent them into
unjust, self-serving conflicts they had no say in serving in. Spit on and
ridicule the amoral leaders who sent them into harm's way -- and using
deceit and lies in order to justify sending them in while at the very same
time knowing full well that these leaders were consciously lying and
deceiving in order to maim and kill on their immoral behalf -- not the
soldier.
Thats
almost laughable. I say soldiers are not heroes, ever.
I'd think you'd be hard-pressed to get the surviors of the Nazi death-camps
to agree with you.
You say they
are. Your attitude is kind of what I am trying to root up here (though
your response was well-mannered and well-stated). A member of any
military signs up and, in doing so, automatically agrees to be ruled
by something other than her own reason.
Not entirely. If I were a platoon commander given orders to wipe out every
man, woman, and child in a village from which *some* hostile fire was coming
from and I *knew* for a fact that only one or two well-positioned enemy 'hot
spots' were the problem and that the villagers were completely innocent of
any wrong-doing apart from, say, being 'sympathetic' to the enemy forces.
I'd ask the commander issuing that order, if at all possible, re-issue that
order to me in *person*! If he did so, I'd have to choose between following
the lunatic's obscene order, have him hog-tied and become 'indisposed' until
after the firefight and left to military personnel to deal with at a later
time, or pull out my '.45' and 'rehabilitate' the offending officer on the
spot. So you see, nothing is quite so 'automatic' as you might think.
She has already agreed to go
wherever and do whatever the CIC commands.
Not every 'whatever'. Some orders a good soldier *must* not obey. And
shooting unarmed, innocent civilians is one of many.
When it comes to the
military, those are extremely high stakes- and one would just give up
her power of effective judgement?! Insane!
Believe it or not, their *is* 'right and wrong' in battle. I mentioned
shooting prisoners for no other reason than the desire to kill them will
come back to haunt the soldier with a conscience for the rest of their
lives. But, in turn, the soldier who is just *burning* with an almost
insatiable desire to kill captured prisoners but at the very last second
chooses *not* to on moral grounds, will live at piece with his conscience
and feel 'good' about the fact that he let his inner goodness prevail is his
'reward' for doing the 'right' thing. A tough call at times to be sure. And
the soldier has to live with it, right or wrong, for a long time to come.
And this applies just as much to the atheist as it does the Jesus freak.
What is it worth to be flung off to foreign lands, suffer in abject
climates, be deprived of sleep, be shot at, kill people you know of
dont know to be innocent? What would someone have to pay you to do
that?
Not enough, that's for *sure*! Unless, of course, you love your country and
are fighting the 'noble' fight. Then, you'd almost do it for free.
As you watch your friends die or are yourself mutilated- what is
the price on these things? Well, there probably is no dollar amount
and military people know it. They do what they do for many reasons, I
am sure. I would say that chief among those, however, is to "serve"
some notion of their "nation" that they believe in. HOWEVER, that is a
convenient little fiction, isnt it.
You're darn tootin' it is -- at times. Hitler and Mussolini's fascism needed
to be eradicated as much as possible. The belief that it's perfectly
acceptable to enslave a class of people based on some arrogant, self assured
notion that they are inferior to one's self is another reason to fight
bitterly.
What they would wish to serve
neednt exist, they needn't actually improve it- they just need to feel
like heroes.
When you talk to the surviving veterans of some of the most bitter, bloody
battles imaginable, you'll find almost universal consensus. They'll point to
the dead bodies of their fallen 'brothers in arms' and tearfully declare
that *there* lie the true heroes. That *they* are the heroes, not them.
And why would they not? This culture praises them with
every chance it gets.
I must agree. The word 'hero' is much overused and abused. It should be very
carefully and selectively applied.
But there is nothing worthy of praise. They lock
themselves and the entire nation into a situation in which no one
profits.
Oh, the military industrial complex makes a *killing*! War profiteers are
more common than Washington lobbyists and attorneys.
If we have a professional fighting force then we need someone
to fight. We need someone to buy up all the damn guns and bombs that
we make so we need a freaking war. War after War after War. And the
only argument is against politicians. Well, isnt that quaint. Has
anyone had any doubts over the last few centuries that politician is
another word for scumbag? Get over it.
Boy are *Youuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuu* ever preachin' to the choir now, sister!!
The damn bastards are good for s . . t, I almost used a four-letter,
derogatory term until I realized that it actually *is* more useful than some
of the 'scum-bags' we elect!
War is not a necessary evil and it is not noble, nor do "warriors"
hold noble ideas. Ever. Not even should they fight NAZIS, Islamic
terrorists, Crusaders, Slave holders- NEVER NEVER.
*Major* disagreement! I'm filing for a divorce.
Show up on
somebody's doorstep with a gun and she stabs you in the throat with a
kitchen knife. That is her right but it is not commendable. It is
local, it makes no grand statements of nationhood. She protects her
body and the bodies of her children and family. Nothing more than
that. You fools with all your grandeur and bravado would never
understand that.
Don't quite get what you mean in the above, but anyone standing on one's
doorstep with a gun is almost certainly there with nothing but bad
intentions. Self-defense is most appropriate in this case.
As far as the suffering of a murdering soldier- yeah, i hope her
conscience rips her up. But that is not good enough.
Maybe not. But it's *something*. You just wish the immoral leader who sent
that soldier into the murderous atmosphere of an immoral war -- and without
the slightest bit of remorse for having done so -- would share a little of
that pain instead of remaining guilt-free. Now that's *quite* unjust.
That is not justice and its justice, Justice, that we should find
noble.
The noble soldier who fights in a noble war nobly is a soldier fighting in
the service of Justice. *That* warrior need not bow his head in shame to
*anyone*.
Let's bring our warriors home. This administration and war profiteering
companies like Halliburton have clearly demonstrated that they care not for
them and their families. Didn't the Walter Reed Hospital fiasco teach us
*anything*?
Greywolf
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| User: "Gegenwart911" |
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| Title: Re: Thanks be to God: nearly 4,000 US troops killed in Iraq! |
18 Oct 2007 07:08:35 AM |
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Greywolf-
Nice to read your comments, once again. Although I'm with you on a few
things, lets just agree to disagree on the big stuff. I read your
words and am like 'give me a break!' and you probably say the same
thing. You find something of value in soldiery and i do not. That is a
fundamental impasse and I do not think we can work around it. I am
saying something here that goes against every fiber of the American's
being so I didnt expect anyone to agree- except maybe another extreme
dissenter (just like me) and thats boring. Anyway, since noone else
wants to touch this topic (you wimps), we can just give it a rest.
Frau Gegenwart
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