| Topic: |
Religions > Atheism |
| User: |
"J Young" |
| Date: |
27 May 2005 02:57:08 PM |
| Object: |
THE ABORTION / SUICIDE CONNECTION |
THE ABORTION / SUICIDE CONNECTION
In the 1960's, when abortions were available only for "therapeutic"
reasons, it was not uncommon for persons with the means and know-how to
obtain an abortion on psychiatric grounds. In some states, all that was
necessary was to find an agreeable psychiatrist willing to diagnose
every woman with a problem pregnancy as "suicidal."
Yet all the studies done on this issue show that pregnancy is actually
correlated with a dramatic decreased rate of suicide compared to
non-pregnant women. This has led some psychiatrists to suggest that
pregnancy somehow serves a psychologically protective role. The
presence of another person to "live for" appears to reduce the suicidal
impulses of a mentally disturbed or deeply depressed woman.(1)
Although pregnancy weakens suicidal impulses, there is strong evidence
that abortion dramatically increases the risk of suicide. According to
a 1986 study by researchers at the University of Minnesota, a teenage
girl is 10 times more likely to attempt suicide if she has had an
abortion in the last six months than is a comparable teenage girl who
has not had an abortion.(2) Other studies have found similar
statistical significance between a history of abortion and suicide
attempts among adults. Thus, the actual data suggests that abortion is
far more likely to drive an unstable woman to suicide than is pregnancy
and childbirth.
This abortion/suicide link is well known among professionals who
counsel suicidal persons. For example, Meta Uchtman, director of the
Cincinnati chapter of Suiciders Anonymous, reported that in a 35 month
period her group worked with 4000 women, of whom 1800 or more had
abortions. Of those who had abortions, 1400 were between the ages of 15
and 24, the age group with the fastest growing suicide rate in the
country.
Sometimes a post-abortion suicide attempt is an impulsive act of
despair. For example, 18-year-old "Susan" writes: "Two days after the
abortion I wrote a suicide note to my parents and boyfriend. I just
couldn't fathom how I could possibly live with the knowledge of what I
had done. I killed my own baby! I went down to the basement and figured
out how to shoot my father's pistol. Hysterical and crying I put the
barrel of the gun into my mouth. All of a sudden I heard someone
upstairs. For some reason my father had stopped by to pick up
something. I stopped what I was doing and went upstairs. He saw that I
was upset and asked me if I wanted to have lunch with him at noon. I
felt I at least owed him lunch. By the time lunch was over I was too
scared to do it."
Other times, the suicidal impulses result from years of repression,
depression, and lost self-esteem. A 1987 study of women who suffered
from post-abortion trauma found that 60 percent had experienced
suicidal ideation, 28 percent had attempted suicide, and 18 percent had
attempted suicide more than once, often several years after the
event.(3)
Sadly, in at least one documented case, an 18-year-old committed
suicide three days after having a suction abortion because of guilt
feelings over having "killed her baby." Later examination of the
clinic's records revealed that she had not actually been pregnant.
Perhaps one reason for the strong abortion/suicide link exists in the
fact that in many ways abortion is like suicide. A person who threatens
suicide is actually crying out for help. So are women who contemplate
abortion. Both are in a state of despair. Both are lonely. Both feel
faced by insurmountable odds.
Some "right-to-die" groups argue that we should legalize suicide and
even create suicide clinics where facilitators would ease people
through their suicide decisions. If we did so, there would be no
shortage of desperate people willing to exercise their "freedom to
choose." Promised a "quick, easy and painless" solution to their
problems, suicide rates would skyrocket just as abortion rates did in
the 1970's.
Like the suicide clinics described above, abortion clinics also exploit
desperate people. They promise to release clients from the darkness of
their despair. They appeal to our consumer society's demand for instant
solutions to all our problems. They pose as places of compassion, but
they are actually reaping huge profits through the harvest of the
lonely, frightened, and confused people who are "unwanted" by society.
In place of life, they offer the "compassion" of death.
Granting the wish for suicide or abortion is not an aid to desperate
people. It is abandonment. It is a false compassion that protects us
from getting entangled in the "personal problems" of others. It is
"cheap love."
To those who look deeply, and care deeply, it is clear that people who
express a desire for suicide or abortion are really crying out for
help. They are crying out for the support and encouragement to choose
life, cherish life, and rejoice in life. They are crying out for an
infusion of hope.
Just as a suicidal person is crying out for help when she tells others
she wishes she were dead, so a woman who is distressed over a pregnancy
is crying out for help when she tells others she is considering
abortion. In both cases, the desperate person is reaching out in the
hope that someone will announce they truly care, and will truly help
them. They need to see the value of life, their own as well as their
child's, reflected in the love of those who would help them preserve
that life. They need to hear that they are strong enough to triumph in
the life that is theirs, and that whenever they grow weak, we will be
there to strengthen them and even carry them.
This requires us to engage in "costly love," a love that demands a real
sacrifice of time, energy, and resources. Anything less, they will
interpret as "You don't really care." Anything less, and they will be
right.
David C. Reardon, Ph.D.
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| User: "David H." |
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| Title: Re: THE ABORTION / SUICIDE CONNECTION |
27 May 2005 03:09:47 PM |
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<snip>
David C. Reardon, Ph.D.
http://www.msmagazine.com/aug01/pas.html
From the article:
Post-abortion stress syndrome" - PASS or PAS - sounds scientific, but don't
be fooled - it's a made-up term. Not recognized as an official syndrome or
diagnosis by the American Psychiatric Association , the American
Psychological Association, or any other mainstream authority, it is a bogus
affliction invented by the religious right.
And also:
Claiming that abortion causes women psychological suffering conveniently
flips the debate so that the anti-choice movement seems less callous toward
women's concerns and more focused on women's "health." This cynical
pro-woman/pro-life scheme was honed by David C. Reardon, director of the
anti-choice Elliot Institute in Springfield, Illinois - the organization
behind Afterabortion.org - who realized that the fetus imagery of the
"pro-life" movement was failing to sway the masses because too much of the
public believes that women will suffer if abortion is criminalized. In fact,
an October 2000 Gallup poll found that two-thirds of Americans surveyed said
they are against a constitutional amendment that would overturn the right to
abortion established in Roe v. Wade. In March 2001, only 18 percent of the
people polled told Gallup they want abortion to be illegal in all
circumstances. But Reardon asserts that many people who support abortion are
"uneasy pragmatists" who "have hardened their hearts to the baby because
they think at least women are being helped." In his book, The Jericho Plan:
Breaking Down The Walls Which Prevent Post-Abortion Healing, Reardon
describes his new strategy for making the anti-choice movement appear
pro-woman, bringing down the walls of choice by convincing the public "about
the dangers of abortion." And since legal abortion is, in fact, a very safe
surgical procedure and is far less dangerous than childbirth, Reardon and
his allies seek to foment mental pain. "So as we educate [the public] about
how abortion hurts women, it changes the whole equation," Reardon told
Priests for Life. "The potential of post-abortion healing . . . can rapidly
change the whole dynamic of the abortion debate in this country. And I am
really confident that we will see an end to abortion within the decade."
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| User: "Malcolm" |
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| Title: Re: THE ABORTION / SUICIDE CONNECTION |
27 May 2005 05:26:15 PM |
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"J Young" <youngopinions@aol.com> wrote
Although pregnancy weakens suicidal impulses, there is strong evidence
that abortion dramatically increases the risk of suicide.
Not strong evidence for a dramatic increase.
Women who present for abortion are likely to be the sort of women who don't
have stable relationships or many financial resources. They also don't have
enough self-discipline to use contraception.
In other words they are very likely to be suicide risks anyway. It is
entirely plausible that an abortion further increases these risks, but
trying to tease out the importance of this factor is almost impossible.
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| User: "Sour Clayton and Chives Flavoured Pringles...POP" |
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| Title: Re: THE ABORTION / SUICIDE CONNECTION |
27 May 2005 06:15:55 PM |
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"Malcolm" <regniztar@btinternet.com> wrote in message
news:d786q6$klq$1@nwrdmz03.dmz.ncs.ea.ibs-infra.bt.com...
"J Young" <youngopinions@aol.com> wrote
Although pregnancy weakens suicidal impulses, there is strong evidence
that abortion dramatically increases the risk of suicide.
Not strong evidence for a dramatic increase.
Women who present for abortion are likely to be the sort of women who
don't
have stable relationships or many financial resources. They also don't
have
enough self-discipline to use contraception.
In other words they are very likely to be suicide risks anyway. It is
entirely plausible that an abortion further increases these risks, but
trying to tease out the importance of this factor is almost impossible.
It's the sadistic, twisted anti-abortion religious fanatics screaming at
them that they are murderers that increases their chances of suicide. Of
course they don't care how many women kill themselves because of their
actions...they love it because it gives them more opportunities to lie and
blame the suicides on abortion! Anti-abortion activists are the real danger
in society!!
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| User: "Sadburger" |
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| Title: Re: THE ABORTION / SUICIDE CONNECTION |
27 May 2005 06:39:48 PM |
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In article <4297a97f$0$17410$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au>, "Sour Clayton
and Chives Flavoured Pringles...POP" <cjfat@SPAMBLOCKphonymails.com>
wrote:
It's the sadistic, twisted anti-abortion religious fanatics screaming at
them that they are murderers that increases their chances of suicide.
I suspect you're pulling this out of your ***** (as, indeed, most of the
accusations levelled at pro-lifers are,) so where is the evidence that
leads you to this conclusion? The other pro-choicers are saying abortion
doesn't lead to suicide at all, so obviously you both can't be right-- why
should I believe you instead of them?
Yelling pro-lifers causes women to commit suicide? Sure! Pro-lifers just
want to control women's bodies? Why not! Sex is death and religion
controls death so religion controls sex and it does so by making
leg-spreading sluts die in backalleys? Hey, making ***** up is the name of
the game, isn't it?
The more pro-choicers attack strawmen, the more irrelevant they become.
When battling ghosts, you must take care that you do not yourself become a
ghost.
Of
course they don't care how many women kill themselves because of their
actions...they love it because it gives them more opportunities to lie and
blame the suicides on abortion!
Well, naturally. We're horrible, horrible people. I fully believe
pro-choicers' contempt for me runs as deep as they say it does, and yet
I'll be the one who gets branded as "hateful" and "angry."
--
email------ - - . i'd like least be an inuit cuz
. everything is cold and ***** and
web-------- - - . everything's made of snow and *****
home.earthlink.net/~tagutcow . when you're an eskimo and *****.
.
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| User: "james g. keegan jr." |
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| Title: Re: THE ABORTION / SUICIDE CONNECTION |
27 May 2005 08:19:21 PM |
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(Sadburger) wrote in
news:tagutcow-2705051939240001@user-0c992qm.cable.mindspring.com:
In article <4297a97f$0$17410$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au>, "Sour
Clayton and Chives Flavoured Pringles...POP"
<cjfat@SPAMBLOCKphonymails.com> wrote:
It's the sadistic, twisted anti-abortion religious fanatics screaming
at them that they are murderers that increases their chances of
suicide.
I suspect you're pulling this out of your ***** (as, indeed, most of
the accusations levelled at pro-lifers are,)
really?
i don't recall seeing many, if any, false allegations against anti-
choicers. can you cite a few examples, unless you pulled your remark out of
your *****, of course?
.
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| User: "Malcolm" |
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| Title: Re: THE ABORTION / SUICIDE CONNECTION |
28 May 2005 12:51:16 PM |
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"james g. keegan jr." <keegan@nycap.rr.com> wrote
It's the sadistic, twisted anti-abortion religious fanatics screaming
at them that they are murderers that increases their chances of
suicide.
I suspect you're pulling this out of your ***** (as, indeed, most of
the accusations levelled at pro-lifers are,)
really?
i don't recall seeing many, if any, false allegations against anti-
choicers. can you cite a few examples, unless you pulled your remark out
of
your *****, of course?
Well are anti-choicers sadistic - that is motivated by the sexual pleasure
they get by inflicting emotional distress on abortive women?
Are they twisted - I wouldn't like to say exactly what that word means, but
generally it means something like someone is offering an argument based on
distorted and hostile perceptions of the world?
Are they religious?
Are they fanatics - totally devoted to the cause and unable to see any other
arguments.
Do they scream?
Do they accuse abortive women of being murderers?
Are these accusations increasing abortive women's suicide risk?
None of these apply to all anti-choicers. Not all base their arguments on
religion, for example. Some of the accusations are extremely dubious - there
is no evidence I am aware of that affirming the choice to have an abortion
is more likely to protect against suicide than condemning it, for example.
Condemnation offers the woman a way out (conversion to the anti-choice
cause), affirmation denies the feelings of guilt.
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| User: "james g. keegan jr." |
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| Title: Re: THE ABORTION / SUICIDE CONNECTION |
28 May 2005 02:26:34 PM |
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"Malcolm" <regniztar@btinternet.com> wrote in
news:d7ab2j$h8j$1@nwrdmz01.dmz.ncs.ea.ibs-infra.bt.com:
"james g. keegan jr." <keegan@nycap.rr.com> wrote
It's the sadistic, twisted anti-abortion religious fanatics
screaming at them that they are murderers that increases their
chances of suicide.
I suspect you're pulling this out of your ***** (as, indeed, most of
the accusations levelled at pro-lifers are,)
really?
i don't recall seeing many, if any, false allegations against anti-
choicers. can you cite a few examples, unless you pulled your remark
out of
your *****, of course?
Well are anti-choicers sadistic - that is motivated by the sexual
pleasure they get by inflicting emotional distress on abortive women?
i believe that many who have posted here are.
Are they twisted - I wouldn't like to say exactly what that word
means, but generally it means something like someone is offering an
argument based on distorted and hostile perceptions of the world?
oh yes.
Are they religious?
no, but some might pretend they are and others actually believe they are.
Are they fanatics - totally devoted to the cause and unable to see any
other arguments.
absolutely
Do they scream?
rant, would be a better word.
Do they accuse abortive women of being murderers?
quite often
Are these accusations increasing abortive women's suicide risk?
i don;t know
.
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| User: "Sadburger" |
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| Title: Re: THE ABORTION / SUICIDE CONNECTION |
31 May 2005 03:36:24 AM |
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In article <Xns9663D8E87220Bkeegannycaprrcom@130.133.1.4>, "james g.
keegan jr." <keegan@nycap.rr.com> wrote:
(Sadburger) wrote in
news:tagutcow-2705051939240001@user-0c992qm.cable.mindspring.com:
In article <4297a97f$0$17410$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au>, "Sour
Clayton and Chives Flavoured Pringles...POP"
<cjfat@SPAMBLOCKphonymails.com> wrote:
It's the sadistic, twisted anti-abortion religious fanatics screaming
at them that they are murderers that increases their chances of
suicide.
I suspect you're pulling this out of your ***** (as, indeed, most of
the accusations levelled at pro-lifers are,)
really?
i don't recall seeing many, if any, false allegations against anti-
choicers. can you cite a few examples, unless you pulled your remark out of
your *****, of course?
For one:
"It's the sadistic, twisted anti-abortion religious fanatics screaming at
them that they are murderers that increases their chances of suicide."
It could *concievably* be true, but there is nothing to substantiate that
it is in fact true. Therefore, to state it as fact is a lie.
"Pro-lifers just want to control womens' bodies" is something else that
pro-choicers just made up. Not only is it unprovable, I not even sure
exactly what it *means*.
--
email------ - - . i'd like least be an inuit cuz
. everything is cold and ***** and
web-------- - - . everything's made of snow and *****
home.earthlink.net/~tagutcow . when you're an eskimo and *****.
.
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| User: "junegill" |
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| Title: Re: THE ABORTION / SUICIDE CONNECTION |
31 May 2005 04:54:04 AM |
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"Sadburger" <tagutcow@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:tagutcow-3105050435560001@user-0c992qm.cable.mindspring.com...
[snip]
"Pro-lifers just want to control womens' bodies" is something else that
pro-choicers just made up. Not only is it unprovable, I not even sure
exactly what it *means*.
Pro-choicers didn't make it up - I can give you a very recent example of a
pro-lifer wanting to control women's bodies: in the thread ' Re: More
abortion less crime' on 30 May, (Message-ID:
<%vzme.942$iy2.620@newsfe1-gui.ntli.net>) Goldfinger said,
"Women need controlling, especially their mouths, ever since her
irresponsibility in the Garden of Eden."
--
June G
# 364
http://uk.geocities.com/junegill@btopenworld.com/webpages/index.html.html
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| User: "Susan Cohen" |
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| Title: Re: THE ABORTION / SUICIDE CONNECTION |
31 May 2005 10:50:55 AM |
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"junegill" <junegill@btinternet.com> wrote in message
news:d7hc7s$c1g$1@nwrdmz02.dmz.ncs.ea.ibs-infra.bt.com...
"Sadburger" <tagutcow@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:tagutcow-3105050435560001@user-0c992qm.cable.mindspring.com...
[snip]
"Pro-lifers just want to control womens' bodies" is something else that
pro-choicers just made up. Not only is it unprovable, I not even sure
exactly what it *means*.
Pro-choicers didn't make it up - I can give you a very recent example of a
pro-lifer wanting to control women's bodies: in the thread ' Re: More
abortion less crime' on 30 May, (Message-ID:
<%vzme.942$iy2.620@newsfe1-gui.ntli.net>) Goldfinger said,
"Women need controlling, especially their mouths, ever since her
irresponsibility in the Garden of Eden."
Oh, that's just one moron on Usenet.
Go to some of their rallies, the ones to which they don't invite the media
You'll hear worse than that, from far more people.
Susan
--
June G
# 364
http://uk.geocities.com/junegill@btopenworld.com/webpages/index.html.html
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| User: "The Great Hairy One" |
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| Title: Re: THE ABORTION / SUICIDE CONNECTION |
31 May 2005 07:43:58 AM |
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In article <d7hc7s$c1g$1@nwrdmz02.dmz.ncs.ea.ibs-infra.bt.com>,
junegill@btinternet.com says...
Pro-choicers didn't make it up - I can give you a very recent example of a
pro-lifer wanting to control women's bodies: in the thread ' Re: More
abortion less crime' on 30 May, (Message-ID:
<%vzme.942$iy2.620@newsfe1-gui.ntli.net>) Goldfinger said,
"Women need controlling, especially their mouths, ever since her
irresponsibility in the Garden of Eden."
Heya June!
I have to ask - why are these nutters called "pro-life"? Why are they
not called by their actual descriptive name - "pro-slavery"?
And how come all of them are male??
Hope you are doing well, dude! *hugs* :)
--
The Great Hairy One,
BAAWA it all over!
And a SMASHing good time for all of us
=======================================
CEO EAC Roleplaying Division
Roleplaying isn't just a lifestyle
It's a higher calling.
.
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| User: "Katt" |
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| Title: Re: THE ABORTION / SUICIDE CONNECTION |
31 May 2005 08:55:52 AM |
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"The Great Hairy One" <the.great.hairy@geemail.com> wrote in message
I have to ask - why are these nutters called "pro-life"?
*Bingo*!
If they were *really* 'pro-life', then they'd evince some actual concern and
some positive, active compassion for the unwanted kid once the poor little
sod actually gets born. They'd all want to be sure that it was being
decently looked after; that it was being fed properly. They'd be concerned
about its education. About adequate and affordable healthcare. And about how
to best advise and equip the mother so that she didn't have any more
accidental conceptions. You'd see these people lining up to be 'godparents',
mentors, friends and good neighbours. You'd see them helping out at family
planning clinics, and queuing up outside adoption agencies.As it is,
however, they *don't give a ******.
Reason: essentially, they just hate the idea of people fucking. Especially
people fucking for fun. Fucking more than they ever did. And better. And so
they want, wherever possible, fucking to have 'bad consequences' for the
people who do it. Like getting stuck with an unplanned, undesired and
probably unaffordable kid. Screw the fact that the only good reason for a
kid to come into the world is that one or more people wanted it so much that
their hearts almost burst with joy when they heard it was coming: for the
scum who hide behind the bare-faced lie that is their 'pro-life' slogan, the
'life' that they want to 'protect' exists solely for the purpose of giving
the mother the smack in the face that they wish they could give her.
Child-as-punishment. Reproduction-as-retribution. *****-as-comeuppance.
It's a kind of psychopathy, in fact - the resulting child being seen as
nothing more than an *instrument*, 'a means to an end', with the degraded,
barbaric end being merely the protracted mortification of an adult - or, not
seldom, *another child*. Really, these disgusting, damaged, dangerous idiots
*should all be sent to an island, somewhere*...
Katt.
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| User: "junegill" |
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| Title: Re: THE ABORTION / SUICIDE CONNECTION |
31 May 2005 09:57:52 AM |
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"The Great Hairy One" <the.great.hairy@geemail.com> wrote in message
news:MPG.1d070714230725479896b4@freenews.iinet.net.au...
In article <d7hc7s$c1g$1@nwrdmz02.dmz.ncs.ea.ibs-infra.bt.com>,
junegill@btinternet.com says...
Pro-choicers didn't make it up - I can give you a very recent example of
a
pro-lifer wanting to control women's bodies: in the thread ' Re: More
abortion less crime' on 30 May, (Message-ID:
<%vzme.942$iy2.620@newsfe1-gui.ntli.net>) Goldfinger said,
"Women need controlling, especially their mouths, ever since her
irresponsibility in the Garden of Eden."
Heya June!
Hi GHO.
I have to ask - why are these nutters called "pro-life"? Why are they
not called by their actual descriptive name - "pro-slavery"?
And how come all of them are male??
Well, I was going to answer this but Katt pre-empted me, saying what I would
say (and more). Wow, what a post! I take my virtual hat off to her.
Hope you are doing well, dude! *hugs* :)
I'm pretty good, thanks - hope you are too. [hugs back at ya, and to LG]
--
June G
# 364
http://uk.geocities.com/junegill@btopenworld.com/webpages/index.html.html
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| User: "The Great Hairy One" |
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| Title: Re: THE ABORTION / SUICIDE CONNECTION |
01 Jun 2005 04:37:13 PM |
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In article <d7hu1g$sn1$1@nwrdmz03.dmz.ncs.ea.ibs-infra.bt.com>,
junegill@btinternet.com says...
I'm pretty good, thanks - hope you are too. [hugs back at ya, and to LG]
Yep, everything is good here. LG sends her love. :)
--
The Great Hairy One,
BAAWA it all over!
And a SMASHing good time for all of us
=======================================
CEO EAC Roleplaying Division
Roleplaying isn't just a lifestyle
It's a higher calling.
.
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| User: "Susan Cohen" |
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| Title: Re: THE ABORTION / SUICIDE CONNECTION |
31 May 2005 10:54:16 AM |
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"The Great Hairy One" <the.great.hairy@geemail.com> wrote in message
news:MPG.1d070714230725479896b4@freenews.iinet.net.au...
I have to ask - why are these nutters called "pro-life"?
Because the media isn't really liberal, like they all claim, & just goes
along w/what the hypocrites call themselves.
Susan
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| User: "DanielSan" |
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| Title: Re: THE ABORTION / SUICIDE CONNECTION |
31 May 2005 10:57:18 AM |
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Susan Cohen wrote:
"The Great Hairy One" <the.great.hairy@geemail.com> wrote in message
news:MPG.1d070714230725479896b4@freenews.iinet.net.au...
I have to ask - why are these nutters called "pro-life"?
Because the media isn't really liberal, like they all claim, & just goes
along w/what the hypocrites call themselves.
It's not so much as they're not really liberal so much as they're pro money.
In a "free market," people can choose what they want to watch or listen
to. It is why Air America Radio has more listeners than Fox News has
viewers. But the, Republicans knew that. That's why they're
flabbergasted over the sinking ratings of the 24-hour news networks; as
they slant further to right in hopes of not looking "liberal", they
continue to lose viewership.
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| User: "Siobhan Burke" |
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| Title: Re: THE ABORTION / SUICIDE CONNECTION |
03 Jun 2005 06:28:15 AM |
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In article <MPG.1d070714230725479896b4@freenews.iinet.net.au>,
the.great.hairy@geemail.com says...
In article <d7hc7s$c1g$1@nwrdmz02.dmz.ncs.ea.ibs-infra.bt.com>,
junegill@btinternet.com says...
Pro-choicers didn't make it up - I can give you a very recent example of a
pro-lifer wanting to control women's bodies: in the thread ' Re: More
abortion less crime' on 30 May, (Message-ID:
<%vzme.942$iy2.620@newsfe1-gui.ntli.net>) Goldfinger said,
"Women need controlling, especially their mouths, ever since her
irresponsibility in the Garden of Eden."
Heya June!
I have to ask - why are these nutters called "pro-life"? Why are they
not called by their actual descriptive name - "pro-slavery"?
A few years ago I was on a bus where a group of high school
kids were discussing abortion rights. One of the girls said
that "pro-life" didn't seem accurate to her, and I couldn't
resist jumping in. I told her to call them "anti-choice", that
that was the accurate term. "Pro-choice" and "Anti-choice". I
have to say that those kids gave me hope for the future,
intelligently discussing the facts, keeping emotions at a
minimum, even when they disagreed. As they got off the bus, one
of them turned back at the door and said "Tomorrow's topic will
be Nuclear Disarmament." Everybody cracked up. :)
And how come all of them are male??
Bumper Sticker: "If males gave birth, abortion would be a
sacrament."
Hope you are doing well, dude! *hugs* :)
--
Siobhan - a.a. #2201
siobhan.burke@CARRIERatt.net
Drop CARRIER to email
"But as a general rule, when things look bad there's always some
***** who can make them worse." -- Terry Pratchett
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| User: "Susan Cohen" |
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| Title: Re: THE ABORTION / SUICIDE CONNECTION |
31 May 2005 10:49:46 AM |
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"Sadburger" <tagutcow@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:tagutcow-3105050435560001@user-0c992qm.cable.mindspring.com...
In article <Xns9663D8E87220Bkeegannycaprrcom@130.133.1.4>, "james g.
keegan jr." <keegan@nycap.rr.com> wrote:
tagutcow@earthlink.net (Sadburger) wrote in
news:tagutcow-2705051939240001@user-0c992qm.cable.mindspring.com:
In article <4297a97f$0$17410$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au>, "Sour
Clayton and Chives Flavoured Pringles...POP"
<cjfat@SPAMBLOCKphonymails.com> wrote:
It's the sadistic, twisted anti-abortion religious fanatics screaming
at them that they are murderers that increases their chances of
suicide.
I suspect you're pulling this out of your ***** (as, indeed, most of
the accusations levelled at pro-lifers are,)
Untrue.
really?
i don't recall seeing many, if any, false allegations against anti-
choicers. can you cite a few examples, unless you pulled your remark out
of
your *****, of course?
For one:
"It's the sadistic, twisted anti-abortion religious fanatics screaming at
them that they are murderers that increases their chances of suicide."
It could *concievably* be true, but there is nothing to substantiate that
it is in fact true. Therefore, to state it as fact is a lie.
To state that there is some sort of abortion/suicide connection is what is
the lie.
"Pro-lifers just want to control womens' bodies" is something else that
pro-choicers just made up.
No,it's something we have observed from observing anti-choicers.
Not only is it unprovable, I not even sure
exactly what it *means*.
No, it's provable, and I doubt very much that you *don't* know what it
means.
No wonder you think people talk down to you.
Susan.
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| User: "Michael Calwell" |
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| Title: Re: THE ABORTION / SUICIDE CONNECTION |
31 May 2005 01:54:09 PM |
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Susan Cohen wrote:
"Sadburger" <tagutcow@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:tagutcow-3105050435560001@user-0c992qm.cable.mindspring.com...
In article <Xns9663D8E87220Bkeegannycaprrcom@130.133.1.4>, "james g.
keegan jr." <keegan@nycap.rr.com> wrote:
tagutcow@earthlink.net (Sadburger) wrote in
news:tagutcow-2705051939240001@user-0c992qm.cable.mindspring.com:
In article <4297a97f$0$17410$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au>, "Sour
Clayton and Chives Flavoured Pringles...POP"
<cjfat@SPAMBLOCKphonymails.com> wrote:
It's the sadistic, twisted anti-abortion religious fanatics screaming
at them that they are murderers that increases their chances of
suicide.
I suspect you're pulling this out of your ***** (as, indeed, most of
the accusations levelled at pro-lifers are,)
Untrue.
really?
i don't recall seeing many, if any, false allegations against anti-
choicers. can you cite a few examples, unless you pulled your remark out
of
your *****, of course?
For one:
"It's the sadistic, twisted anti-abortion religious fanatics screaming at
them that they are murderers that increases their chances of suicide."
It could *concievably* be true, but there is nothing to substantiate that
it is in fact true. Therefore, to state it as fact is a lie.
To state that there is some sort of abortion/suicide connection is what is
the lie.
Oh crap. Losing a child can be hell for some women, to know that they
have been party to that is bound to drive some good women over the edge.
"Although pregnancy weakens suicidal impulses, there is strong evidence
that abortion dramatically increases the risk of suicide. According to a
1986 study by researchers at the University of Minnesota, a teenage girl
is 10 times more likely to attempt suicide if she has had an abortion in
the last six months than is a comparable teenage girl who has not had an
abortion.(2) Other studies have found similar statistical significance
between a history of abortion and suicide attempts among adults. Thus,
the actual data suggests that abortion is far more likely to drive an
unstable woman to suicide than is pregnancy and childbirth.
This abortion/suicide link is well known among professionals who counsel
suicidal persons. For example, Meta Uchtman, director of the Cincinnati
chapter of Suiciders Anonymous, reported that in a 35 month period her
group worked with 4000 women, of whom 1800 or more had abortions. Of
those who had abortions, 1400 were between the ages of 15 and 24, the
age group with the fastest growing suicide rate in the country.
Sometimes a post-abortion suicide attempt is an impulsive act of
despair. For example, 18-year-old "Susan" writes: "Two days after the
abortion I wrote a suicide note to my parents and boyfriend. I just
couldn't fathom how I could possibly live with the knowledge of what I
had done. I killed my own baby! I went down to the basement and figured
out how to shoot my father's pistol. Hysterical and crying I put the
barrel of the gun into my mouth. All of a sudden I heard someone
upstairs. For some reason my father had stopped by to pick up something.
I stopped what I was doing and went upstairs. He saw that I was upset
and asked me if I wanted to have lunch with him at noon. I felt I at
least owed him lunch. By the time lunch was over I was too scared to do it."
Other times, the suicidal impulses result from years of repression,
depression, and lost self-esteem. A 1987 study of women who suffered
from post-abortion trauma found that 60 percent had experienced suicidal
ideation, 28 percent had attempted suicide, and 18 percent had attempted
suicide more than once, often several years after the event.(3)
Sadly, in at least one documented case, an 18-year-old committed suicide
three days after having a suction abortion because of guilt feelings
over having "killed her baby." Later examination of the clinic's records
revealed that she had not actually been pregnant.
Perhaps one reason for the strong abortion/suicide link exists in the
fact that in many ways abortion is like suicide. A person who threatens
suicide is actually crying out for help. So are women who contemplate
abortion. Both are in a state of despair. Both are lonely. Both feel
faced by insurmountable odds.
Some "right-to-die" groups argue that we should legalize suicide and
even create suicide clinics where facilitators would ease people through
their suicide decisions. If we did so, there would be no shortage of
desperate people willing to exercise their "freedom to choose." Promised
a "quick, easy and painless" solution to their problems, suicide rates
would skyrocket just as abortion rates did in the 1970's.
Like the suicide clinics described above, abortion clinics also exploit
desperate people. They promise to release clients from the darkness of
their despair. They appeal to our consumer society's demand for instant
solutions to all our problems. They pose as places of compassion, but
they are actually reaping huge profits through the harvest of the
lonely, frightened, and confused people who are "unwanted" by society.
In place of life, they offer the "compassion" of death. "
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| User: "Pat Winstanley" |
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| Title: Re: THE ABORTION / SUICIDE CONNECTION |
01 Jun 2005 02:31:59 AM |
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In article <429cb87e$0$2588$da0feed9@news.zen.co.uk>,
michael.calwell@btopenworld.com says...
To state that there is some sort of abortion/suicide connection is what is
the lie.
Oh crap. Losing a child can be hell for some women
Yet with abortion we are not discussing a situation where a child dies
or is 'lost'. We are discussing a situation where a woman gets medical
treatment to deal wioth a medical condition affecting her body... no
child involved at all.
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| User: "Susan Cohen" |
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| Title: Re: THE ABORTION / SUICIDE CONNECTION |
01 Jun 2005 10:40:45 AM |
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"Pat Winstanley" <boredofspam2004@yahoo.co.uk> wrote in message
news:MPG.1d0774cadab3889a98c70b@news.uni-berlin.de...
In article <429cb87e$0$2588$da0feed9@news.zen.co.uk>,
michael.calwell@btopenworld.com says...
To state that there is some sort of abortion/suicide connection is what
is
the lie.
Oh crap. Losing a child can be hell for some women
Yet with abortion we are not discussing a situation where a child dies
or is 'lost'. We are discussing a situation where a woman gets medical
treatment to deal wioth a medical condition affecting her body... no
child involved at all.
However incorrect the original proposition was/is, your stance is too
severe.
There *are* women who still grieve, because of the loss of possibility.
I know I was upset when I had a miscarriage - even before the pregnancy had
beenold enough to be confirmed. This was because I *really* wanted to be
pregnant at the time. Women who've had abortions because of grave problems
can be very depressed about it, but that's hardly the fault of abortion!!
It's far more depressing to have a child when you don't want one.
Susan
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| User: "MLL" |
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| Title: Re: THE ABORTION / SUICIDE CONNECTION |
01 Jun 2005 09:18:58 PM |
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Susan Cohen wrote:
"Pat Winstanley" <boredofspam2004@yahoo.co.uk> wrote in message
news:MPG.1d0774cadab3889a98c70b@news.uni-berlin.de...
In article <429cb87e$0$2588$da0feed9@news.zen.co.uk>,
michael.calwell@btopenworld.com says...
To state that there is some sort of abortion/suicide connection is what
is
the lie.
Oh crap. Losing a child can be hell for some women
Yet with abortion we are not discussing a situation where a child dies
or is 'lost'. We are discussing a situation where a woman gets medical
treatment to deal wioth a medical condition affecting her body... no
child involved at all.
However incorrect the original proposition was/is, your stance is too
severe.
There *are* women who still grieve, because of the loss of possibility.
I know I was upset when I had a miscarriage - even before the pregnancy had
beenold enough to be confirmed. This was because I *really* wanted to be
pregnant at the time. Women who've had abortions because of grave problems
can be very depressed about it, but that's hardly the fault of abortion!!
It's far more depressing to have a child when you don't want one.
Is that why you excuse murder of born children by their mothers? Andrea
Yates was the name, remember. And all the pro-abortion fanatical
feminists from NOW running to her defense. Hahaha. You scumbags aren't
tough to figure out.
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| User: "Susan Cohen" |
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| Title: Re: THE ABORTION / SUICIDE CONNECTION |
01 Jun 2005 09:29:47 PM |
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"MLL" <jkh@hj.hjk> wrote in message news:429E6C92.7416565@hj.hjk...
Susan Cohen wrote:
"Pat Winstanley" <boredofspam2004@yahoo.co.uk> wrote in message
news:MPG.1d0774cadab3889a98c70b@news.uni-berlin.de...
In article <429cb87e$0$2588$da0feed9@news.zen.co.uk>,
michael.calwell@btopenworld.com says...
To state that there is some sort of abortion/suicide connection is
what
is
the lie.
Oh crap. Losing a child can be hell for some women
Yet with abortion we are not discussing a situation where a child dies
or is 'lost'. We are discussing a situation where a woman gets medical
treatment to deal wioth a medical condition affecting her body... no
child involved at all.
However incorrect the original proposition was/is, your stance is too
severe.
There *are* women who still grieve, because of the loss of possibility.
I know I was upset when I had a miscarriage - even before the pregnancy
had
beenold enough to be confirmed. This was because I *really* wanted to be
pregnant at the time. Women who've had abortions because of grave
problems
can be very depressed about it, but that's hardly the fault of abortion!!
It's far more depressing to have a child when you don't want one.
Is that why you excuse murder of born children by their mothers?
And since when have I or anyone ever done this?
And what in my post could possibly lead you to even pretend that this is
what I meant?
Andrea
Yates was the name, remember. And all the pro-abortion fanatical
feminists from NOW running to her defense.
When she was mentally ill & her husband took away her drugs as well as
decided that she would home-school all the children? Yeah, a lot of people
came to her defense.
Hahaha. You scumbags aren't
tough to figure out.
You are the only scumbag here - a very stupid lying one at that.
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| User: "The Appalling Silence" |
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| Title: Re: THE ABORTION / SUICIDE CONNECTION |
26 Jul 2005 07:59:29 PM |
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As usual, all Pat Winstanley ever comes up with is "posturing". She acts as
if the whole abortion debate is already over and that there is no question
to resolve. In this way she avoids giving reasons for her view, which would
be an impossible task, since there is no reasonable argument which supports
the killing of babies, either before or after their birth.
She states her conclusions as if they are final, without ever being able to
give a reason for arriving at those conclusions. The Nazis denied the
humanity of their victims in order to pretend that there were no humans
being killed, and Pat Winstanley is doing the same with boys and girls who
are so young they are still in their mothers' wombs. But if we look up
scientific textbooks on Biology, or Fetology, Genetics or any other related
science we find that human life does indeed begin at conception, and that
Pat Winstanley's continual unsubstantiated assertions are nothing more than
empty dogmatic pro-abortion propaganda.
"Pat Winstanley" <boredofspam2004@yahoo.co.uk> wrote in message
news:MPG.1d0774cadab3889a98c70b@news.uni-berlin.de...
In article <429cb87e$0$2588$da0feed9@news.zen.co.uk>,
michael.calwell@btopenworld.com says...
To state that there is some sort of abortion/suicide connection is
what is
the lie.
Oh crap. Losing a child can be hell for some women
Yet with abortion we are not discussing a situation where a child dies
or is 'lost'. We are discussing a situation where a woman gets medical
treatment to deal wioth a medical condition affecting her body... no
child involved at all.
.
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| User: "james g. keegan jr." |
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| Title: Re: THE ABORTION / SUICIDE CONNECTION |
26 Jul 2005 08:06:40 PM |
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"The Appalling Silence" <appsil@myway.com> wrote in
news:36BFe.25915$Le2.186728@nasal.pacific.net.au:
[rude top post deleted]
i take it that you have not read a usenet primer on top posting?
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| User: "Mickey" |
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| Title: Re: THE ABORTION / SUICIDE CONNECTION |
26 Jul 2005 08:49:43 PM |
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"The Appalling Silence" <appsil@myway.com> wrote in message
news:36BFe.25915$Le2.186728@nasal.pacific.net.au...
As usual, all Pat Winstanley ever comes up with is "posturing". She acts
as
if the whole abortion debate is already over and that there is no question
to resolve. In this way she avoids giving reasons for her view, which
would
be an impossible task, since there is no reasonable argument which
supports
the killing of babies, either before or after their birth.
She states her conclusions as if they are final, without ever being able
to
give a reason for arriving at those conclusions. The Nazis denied the
humanity of their victims in order to pretend that there were no humans
being killed, and Pat Winstanley is doing the same with boys and girls who
are so young they are still in their mothers' wombs. But if we look up
scientific textbooks on Biology, or Fetology, Genetics or any other
related
science we find that human life does indeed begin at conception, and that
Pat Winstanley's continual unsubstantiated assertions are nothing more
than
empty dogmatic pro-abortion propaganda.
Pure hogwash. Go peddle your back asswards religion elsewhere
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| User: "Susan Cohen" |
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| Title: Re: THE ABORTION / SUICIDE CONNECTION |
26 Jul 2005 10:24:04 PM |
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"The Appalling Silence" <appsil@myway.com> wrote in message
news:36BFe.25915$Le2.186728@nasal.pacific.net.au...
As usual, all Pat Winstanley ever comes up with is "posturing". She acts
as
if the whole abortion debate is already over and that there is no question
to resolve.
That's not "posturing" - it's called "dealing with reality."
Just because some cretinous fascists want to push their personal beliefs on
everyone else when science is against them doesn't mean that she's wroing.
Susan
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| User: "bam" |
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| Title: Re: THE ABORTION / SUICIDE CONNECTION |
27 Jul 2005 12:36:52 AM |
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"Susan Cohen" <flaviaR@verizon.net> wrote in message
news:o7DFe.15265$sc3.3733@trnddc07...
"The Appalling Silence" <appsil@myway.com> wrote in message
news:36BFe.25915$Le2.186728@nasal.pacific.net.au...
As usual, all Pat Winstanley ever comes up with is "posturing". She acts
as
if the whole abortion debate is already over and that there is no
question
to resolve.
That's not "posturing" - it's called "dealing with reality."
Just because some cretinous fascists want to push their personal beliefs
on everyone else when science is against them doesn't mean that she's
wroing.
Susan
What a jerk.
BAM
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| User: "Mark K. Bilbo" |
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| Title: Re: THE ABORTION / SUICIDE CONNECTION |
27 Jul 2005 05:40:10 AM |
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In episode <36BFe.25915$Le2.186728@nasal.pacific.net.au>, The Appalling
Silence burst into the room and exclaimed:
The Appalling Silence
If only...
--
Mark K. Bilbo - a.a. #1423
EAC Department of Linguistic Subversion
Alt-atheism website at: http://www.alt-atheism.org
--------------------------------------------------
"Come to think of it, there are already a million
monkeys on a million typewriters, and the Usenet
is NOTHING like Shakespeare!" -- Blair Houghton
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| User: "Christopher A. Lee" |
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| Title: Re: THE ABORTION / SUICIDE CONNECTION |
26 Jul 2005 08:11:10 PM |
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On Wed, 27 Jul 2005 10:59:29 +1000, "The Appalling Silence"
<appsil@myway.com> wrote:
As usual, all Pat Winstanley ever comes up with is "posturing". She acts as
if the whole abortion debate is already over and that there is no question
to resolve. In this way she avoids giving reasons for her view, which would
be an impossible task, since there is no reasonable argument which supports
the killing of babies, either before or after their birth.
Nobody is killing babies, liar.
But then you know that from your dishonest redefinition of zygote,
embryo etc as baby.
When they are actually something with the potential to become one.
The vast majority of abortions are long before it can be considered a
baby.
Late term abortions are for medical reasons: a deformed or even dead,
non-viable fetus or to save the mother.
She states her conclusions as if they are final, without ever being able to
give a reason for arriving at those conclusions. The Nazis denied the
humanity of their victims in order to pretend that there were no humans
being killed, and Pat Winstanley is doing the same with boys and girls who
are so young they are still in their mothers' wombs. But if we look up
scientific textbooks on Biology, or Fetology, Genetics or any other related
science we find that human life does indeed begin at conception, and that
Pat Winstanley's continual unsubstantiated assertions are nothing more than
empty dogmatic pro-abortion propaganda.
The disgusting, dishonest nastiness of comparing people with Nazis.
The lie that abortion kills people.
And it only begins at conception if you pretend human life equals
human being.
But why let honest interfere?
"Pat Winstanley" <boredofspam2004@yahoo.co.uk> wrote in message
news:MPG.1d0774cadab3889a98c70b@news.uni-berlin.de...
In article <429cb87e$0$2588$da0feed9@news.zen.co.uk>,
michael.calwell@btopenworld.com says...
To state that there is some sort of abortion/suicide connection is
what is
the lie.
Oh crap. Losing a child can be hell for some women
Yet with abortion we are not discussing a situation where a child dies
or is 'lost'. We are discussing a situation where a woman gets medical
treatment to deal wioth a medical condition affecting her body... no
child involved at all.
.
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