| Topic: |
Religions > Atheism |
| User: |
"J Young" |
| Date: |
06 Jul 2005 01:01:44 PM |
| Object: |
the abortion / suicide connection |
THE ABORTION / SUICIDE CONNECTION
David C. Reardon, Ph.D.
In the 1960's, when abortions were available only for "therapeutic"
reasons, it was not uncommon for persons with the means and know-how to
obtain an abortion on psychiatric grounds. In some states, all that was
necessary was to find an agreeable psychiatrist willing to diagnose
every woman with a problem pregnancy as "suicidal."
Yet all the studies done on this issue show that pregnancy is actually
correlated with a dramatic decreased rate of suicide compared to
non-pregnant women. This has led some psychiatrists to suggest that
pregnancy somehow serves a psychologically protective role. The
presence of another person to "live for" appears to reduce the suicidal
impulses of a mentally disturbed or deeply depressed woman.(1)
Although pregnancy weakens suicidal impulses, there is strong evidence
that abortion dramatically increases the risk of suicide. According to
a 1986 study by researchers at the University of Minnesota, a teenage
girl is 10 times more likely to attempt suicide if she has had an
abortion in the last six months than is a comparable teenage girl who
has not had an abortion.(2) Other studies have found similar
statistical significance between a history of abortion and suicide
attempts among adults. Thus, the actual data suggests that abortion is
far more likely to drive an unstable woman to suicide than is pregnancy
and childbirth.
This abortion/suicide link is well known among professionals who
counsel suicidal persons. For example, Meta Uchtman, director of the
Cincinnati chapter of Suiciders Anonymous, reported that in a 35 month
period her group worked with 4000 women, of whom 1800 or more had
abortions. Of those who had abortions, 1400 were between the ages of 15
and 24, the age group with the fastest growing suicide rate in the
country.
Sometimes a post-abortion suicide attempt is an impulsive act of
despair. For example, 18-year-old "Susan" writes: "Two days after the
abortion I wrote a suicide note to my parents and boyfriend. I just
couldn't fathom how I could possibly live with the knowledge of what I
had done. I killed my own baby! I went down to the basement and figured
out how to shoot my father's pistol. Hysterical and crying I put the
barrel of the gun into my mouth. All of a sudden I heard someone
upstairs. For some reason my father had stopped by to pick up
something. I stopped what I was doing and went upstairs. He saw that I
was upset and asked me if I wanted to have lunch with him at noon. I
felt I at least owed him lunch. By the time lunch was over I was too
scared to do it."
Other times, the suicidal impulses result from years of repression,
depression, and lost self-esteem. A 1987 study of women who suffered
from post-abortion trauma found that 60 percent had experienced
suicidal ideation, 28 percent had attempted suicide, and 18 percent had
attempted suicide more than once, often several years after the
event.(3)
Sadly, in at least one documented case, an 18-year-old committed
suicide three days after having a suction abortion because of guilt
feelings over having "killed her baby." Later examination of the
clinic's records revealed that she had not actually been pregnant.
Perhaps one reason for the strong abortion/suicide link exists in the
fact that in many ways abortion is like suicide. A person who threatens
suicide is actually crying out for help. So are women who contemplate
abortion. Both are in a state of despair. Both are lonely. Both feel
faced by insurmountable odds.
Some "right-to-die" groups argue that we should legalize suicide and
even create suicide clinics where facilitators would ease people
through their suicide decisions. If we did so, there would be no
shortage of desperate people willing to exercise their "freedom to
choose." Promised a "quick, easy and painless" solution to their
problems, suicide rates would skyrocket just as abortion rates did in
the 1970's.
Like the suicide clinics described above, abortion clinics also exploit
desperate people. They promise to release clients from the darkness of
their despair. They appeal to our consumer society's demand for instant
solutions to all our problems. They pose as places of compassion, but
they are actually reaping huge profits through the harvest of the
lonely, frightened, and confused people who are "unwanted" by society.
In place of life, they offer the "compassion" of death.
Granting the wish for suicide or abortion is not an aid to desperate
people. It is abandonment. It is a false compassion that protects us
from getting entangled in the "personal problems" of others. It is
"cheap love."
To those who look deeply, and care deeply, it is clear that people who
express a desire for suicide or abortion are really crying out for
help. They are crying out for the support and encouragement to choose
life, cherish life, and rejoice in life. They are crying out for an
infusion of hope.
Just as a suicidal person is crying out for help when she tells others
she wishes she were dead, so a woman who is distressed over a pregnancy
is crying out for help when she tells others she is considering
abortion. In both cases, the desperate person is reaching out in the
hope that someone will announce they truly care, and will truly help
them. They need to see the value of life, their own as well as their
child's, reflected in the love of those who would help them preserve
that life. They need to hear that they are strong enough to triumph in
the life that is theirs, and that whenever they grow weak, we will be
there to strengthen them and even carry them.
This requires us to engage in "costly love," a love that demands a real
sacrifice of time, energy, and resources. Anything less, they will
interpret as "You don't really care." Anything less, and they will be
right.
.
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| User: "Malcolm" |
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| Title: Re: the abortion / suicide connection |
06 Jul 2005 06:32:49 PM |
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"J Young" <youngopinions@aol.com> wrote
Although pregnancy weakens suicidal impulses, there is strong evidence
that abortion dramatically increases the risk of suicide. According to
a 1986 study by researchers at the University of Minnesota, a teenage
girl is 10 times more likely to attempt suicide if she has had an
abortion in the last six months than is a comparable teenage girl who
has not had an abortion.(2)
Sorry, no. To do a proper study you would have to take two samples of
would-be abortive women, grant one group abortions and deny them to the
other, assigning women at random to each group, and then follow for suicide
rates.
You can pull apart embryos for reaserch but you can't do anything as wicked
as preventing women from having abortions in the name of science, so such a
study cannot be done.
You must rely on taking abortive women and similar but not abortive women.
There are huge numbers of confounding factors. How are you going to control
for "selfish", for example? So unless the effect is really extreme, it is
very difficult to show that you have an effect. In the case of suicides, you
only have a very few cases in a large sample, so even a claimed tenfold
increase is not all that convincing.
I'm not denying that abortion might increase suicide risk. Intuitively it
seems obvious that this would be so. However you shouldn't think that your
data is good enough to use this as a main plank of your arguement agaisnt
abortion.
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| User: "Mickey" |
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| Title: Re: the abortion / suicide connection |
06 Jul 2005 01:46:31 PM |
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"J Young" <youngopinions@aol.com> wrote in message
news:1120669799.572181.313960@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
THE ABORTION / SUICIDE CONNECTION
Yeah, your mother should have had an abortion, and her failing has left us
with only the hope that you will commit suicide.
.
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| User: "Danny" |
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| Title: Re: the abortion / suicide connection |
06 Jul 2005 06:43:02 PM |
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"Mickey" <mickeyb@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:dLadnemfxJiUulHfRVn-2g@comcast.com...
"J Young" <youngopinions@aol.com> wrote in message
news:1120669799.572181.313960@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
THE ABORTION / SUICIDE CONNECTION
Yeah, your mother should have had an abortion, and her failing has left us
with only the hope that you will commit suicide.
Oh the Love from the Liberals.
.
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| User: "Mickey" |
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| Title: Re: the abortion / suicide connection |
06 Jul 2005 06:48:38 PM |
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"Danny" <dummymailaddress@aol.com> wrote in message
news:a5idnYQFjKYe8VHfRVn-3g@intertex.net...
"Mickey" <mickeyb@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:dLadnemfxJiUulHfRVn-2g@comcast.com...
"J Young" <youngopinions@aol.com> wrote in message
news:1120669799.572181.313960@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
THE ABORTION / SUICIDE CONNECTION
Yeah, your mother should have had an abortion, and her failing has left
us
with only the hope that you will commit suicide.
Oh the Love from the Liberals.
Liberal? And where, pray tell, did you cook up that scheme?
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| User: "Clayton: Master Of Scrotum Origami" |
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| Title: Re: the abortion / suicide connection |
06 Jul 2005 07:18:39 PM |
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"Danny" <dummymailaddress@aol.com> wrote in message
news:a5idnYQFjKYe8VHfRVn-3g@intertex.net...
"Mickey" <mickeyb@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:dLadnemfxJiUulHfRVn-2g@comcast.com...
"J Young" <youngopinions@aol.com> wrote in message
news:1120669799.572181.313960@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
THE ABORTION / SUICIDE CONNECTION
Yeah, your mother should have had an abortion, and her failing has left
us
with only the hope that you will commit suicide.
Oh the Love from the Liberals.
Oh the irony of rightard stupidity!
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| User: "Susan Cohen" |
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| Title: Re: the abortion / suicide connection |
06 Jul 2005 07:47:55 PM |
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"Danny" <dummymailaddress@aol.com> wrote in message
news:a5idnYQFjKYe8VHfRVn-3g@intertex.net...
"Mickey" <mickeyb@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:dLadnemfxJiUulHfRVn-2g@comcast.com...
"J Young" <youngopinions@aol.com> wrote in message
news:1120669799.572181.313960@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
THE ABORTION / SUICIDE CONNECTION
Yeah, your mother should have had an abortion, and her failing has left
us
with only the hope that you will commit suicide.
Oh the Love from the Liberals.
Of course: As ye sow, so shall re reap.
Susan
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| User: "DanielSan" |
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| Title: Re: the abortion / suicide connection |
06 Jul 2005 06:47:08 PM |
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Danny wrote:
"Mickey" <mickeyb@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:dLadnemfxJiUulHfRVn-2g@comcast.com...
"J Young" <youngopinions@aol.com> wrote in message
news:1120669799.572181.313960@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
THE ABORTION / SUICIDE CONNECTION
Yeah, your mother should have had an abortion, and her failing has left us
with only the hope that you will commit suicide.
Oh the Love from the Liberals.
Is Mickey a Liberal? How can you deduce such from the above post?
--
****************************************************
* DanielSan -- alt.atheism #2226 *
*--------------------------------------------------*
* "No one ever demonstrated, so far as I am aware, *
* the non-existence of Zeus or Thor - but they *
* have few followers now." Arthur C. Clarke *
****************************************************
.
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| User: "Somewriter" |
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| Title: Re: the abortion / suicide connection |
06 Jul 2005 08:00:46 PM |
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On Wed, 6 Jul 2005 18:43:02 -0500, "Danny" <dummymailaddress@aol.com>
wrote:
"Mickey" <mickeyb@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:dLadnemfxJiUulHfRVn-2g@comcast.com...
"J Young" <youngopinions@aol.com> wrote in message
news:1120669799.572181.313960@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
THE ABORTION / SUICIDE CONNECTION
Yeah, your mother should have had an abortion, and her failing has left us
with only the hope that you will commit suicide.
Oh the Love from the Liberals.
That's as asinine as J Young's "connection." ***** up a rope and open
your mouth.
.
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| User: "Mickey" |
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| Title: Re: the abortion / suicide connection |
06 Jul 2005 08:09:19 PM |
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"Somewriter" <sappywriter@poetic.com> wrote in message
news:gkvoc1ta4pppaat1ume1p2gvkjdik36ar4@4ax.com...
On Wed, 6 Jul 2005 18:43:02 -0500, "Danny" <dummymailaddress@aol.com>
wrote:
"Mickey" <mickeyb@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:dLadnemfxJiUulHfRVn-2g@comcast.com...
"J Young" <youngopinions@aol.com> wrote in message
news:1120669799.572181.313960@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
THE ABORTION / SUICIDE CONNECTION
Yeah, your mother should have had an abortion, and her failing has left
us
with only the hope that you will commit suicide.
Oh the Love from the Liberals.
That's as asinine as J Young's "connection." ***** up a rope and open
your mouth.
LOL!!!!
Mickey
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| User: "Crusader" |
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| Title: Re: the abortion / suicide connection |
06 Jul 2005 10:38:10 PM |
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Who said anything about liberals?
According to the way he expresses himself he is a normal sphincter.No
ideology there, just *****
"Danny" <dummymailaddress@aol.com> wrote in message
news:a5idnYQFjKYe8VHfRVn-3g@intertex.net...
"Mickey" <mickeyb@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:dLadnemfxJiUulHfRVn-2g@comcast.com...
"J Young" <youngopinions@aol.com> wrote in message
news:1120669799.572181.313960@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
THE ABORTION / SUICIDE CONNECTION
Yeah, your mother should have had an abortion, and her failing has left
us
with only the hope that you will commit suicide.
Oh the Love from the Liberals.
.
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| User: "Rally_Round" |
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| Title: Re: the abortion / suicide connection |
06 Jul 2005 02:43:22 PM |
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"J Young" <youngopinions@aol.com> wrote in message
news:1120669799.572181.313960@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
THE ABORTION / SUICIDE CONNECTION
David C. Reardon, Ph.D.
<snip>
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v29/CyberJim/shitagain.jpg
David Reardon, (P)iled (h)igher and (D)eeper.
----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet News==----
http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 120,000+ Newsgroups
----= East and West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption =----
.
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| User: "Jez" |
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| Title: Re: the abortion / suicide connection |
06 Jul 2005 04:12:56 PM |
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"J Young" <youngopinions@aol.com> wrote in news:1120669799.572181.313960
@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com:
THE ABORTION / SUICIDE CONNECTION
Why do you keep crossposting drivel like this to alt.atheism ?
Dumb *****.
--
Jez, MBA.,
Country Dancing and Advanced Astrology, UBS.
'Realism is seductive because once you have accepted the reasonable
notion that you should base your actions on reality, you are too often
led to accept, without much questioning, someone else's version of what
that reality is. It is a crucial act of independent thinking to be
skeptical of someone else's description of reality.'-
Howard Zinn
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| User: "Clayton: Master Of Scrotum Origami" |
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| Title: Re: the abortion / suicide connection |
06 Jul 2005 07:12:00 PM |
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"Jez" <iced_spear@NODAMNSPAMdsl.pipex.com> wrote in message
news:Xns968BE200BFB37hellward@216.196.109.145...
"J Young" <youngopinions@aol.com> wrote in news:1120669799.572181.313960
@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com:
THE ABORTION / SUICIDE CONNECTION
Why do you keep crossposting drivel like this to alt.atheism ?
Because he's a disturbed troll who desperately seeks attention and knows
he's going to get it here with a few simple lies!
.
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| User: "Jez" |
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| Title: Re: the abortion / suicide connection |
12 Jul 2005 04:29:26 AM |
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"J Young" <youngopinions@aol.com> wrote in news:1120669799.572181.313960
@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com:
THE ABORTION / SUICIDE CONNECTION
Urm.....If you get aborted, you will be un-able to commit suicide ?
--
Jez, MBA.,
Country Dancing and Advanced Astrology, UBS.
'Realism is seductive because once you have accepted the reasonable
notion that you should base your actions on reality, you are too often
led to accept, without much questioning, someone else's version of what
that reality is. It is a crucial act of independent thinking to be
skeptical of someone else's description of reality.'-
Howard Zinn
.
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| User: "LC" |
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| Title: Re: the abortion / suicide connection |
06 Jul 2005 03:14:56 PM |
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Insane crossposting troll "J Young" <youngopinions@aol.com> AKA "IBen
Getiner" <Lappcatt@AOL.com> et al, desperately trolled in message
news:1120669799.572181.313960@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
THE ABORTION / SUICIDE CONNECTION
David C. Reardon, Ph.D.
David Reardon?
BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA! < cough - cough > < wipes tears from eyes>
http://www.prochoiceactionnetwork-canada.org/articles/cmaj-study.shtml
Reardon has *almost* as little credibility as you, IBenSockPuppeting:
From: "J Young" <youngopinions@aol.com>
Newsgroups:
alt.abortion,alt.atheism,alt.religion.christian.roman-catholic,soc.culture.jewish,alt.politics.usa
Subject: the abortion / suicide connection
Date: 6 Jul 2005 11:01:44 -0700
Message-ID: <1120669799.572181.313960@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: 152.163.101.7
From: "IBen Getiner" <Lappcatt@AOL.com>
Newsgroups:
alt.abortion,talk.abortion,alt.bible,alt.politics.homosexuality,alt.politics.usa.republican
Subject: Re: Abortion revisited
Date: 16 May 2005 00:02:51 -0700
Message-ID: <1116226971.854090.227580@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: 152.163.101.7
From: "loose cannon" <looseaint@aol.com>
Newsgroups: alt.abortion,talk.abortion
Subject: Re: Docs want to dispense drugs if pharmacists won't
Date: 21 Jun 2005 21:44:46 -0700
Message-ID: <1119415486.903047.240620@g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: 152.163.101.7
From: "Loose Cannon" <loosecannon__@hotmail.com>
Newsgroups: alt.abortion,talk.abortion
Subject: Re: *IMPORTANT NOTICE*: Another "JYoung/IBenGetiner" forgery.
Date: 1 Jun 2005 10:21:49 -0700
Message-ID: <1117646509.136051.118900@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: 152.163.101.7
LC~ Crazy J/IBen must be running out of ideas.
"why is it that most people who are against abortion are people who you
wouldn't want to ***** in the first place?
From: (Jon Young), sexless eunuch.
Message-ID: <567f3dc3.0310171847.7e13d84@posting.google.com>
.
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| User: "Ray Fischer" |
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| Title: Re: the abortion / suicide connection (pro-lie propaganda) |
06 Jul 2005 09:09:48 PM |
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J Young <youngopinions@aol.com> wrote:
THE ABORTION / SUICIDE CONNECTION
David C. Reardon, Ph.D.
Reardon is an anti-abortion propagandist.
[...]
Although pregnancy weakens suicidal impulses, there is strong evidence
that abortion dramatically increases the risk of suicide.
No there isn't.
According to
a 1986 study by researchers at the University of Minnesota, a teenage
girl is 10 times more likely to attempt suicide if she has had an
abortion in the last six months than is a comparable teenage girl who
has not had an abortion.(2)
Post ergo propter hoc fallacy. The moron assumes that abortion causes
suicide. Why not assume that the same thing that caused the suicide
also caused the abortion? In fact abortion may REDUCE the incidence
of suicide.
--
Ray Fischer
rfischer@sonic.net
.
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| User: "Mark Sebree" |
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| Title: Re: the abortion / suicide connection |
07 Jul 2005 05:42:18 PM |
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J Young wrote:
THE ABORTION / SUICIDE CONNECTION
David C. Reardon, Ph.D.
In the 1960's, when abortions were available only for "therapeutic"
reasons, it was not uncommon for persons with the means and know-how to
obtain an abortion on psychiatric grounds. In some states, all that was
necessary was to find an agreeable psychiatrist willing to diagnose
every woman with a problem pregnancy as "suicidal."
[rest of article snipped to save space]
First, you need to provide a cite to where you got this article. You
obviously did not write it yourself. That is plagarism and technically
a violation of copyright.
And here is an excellent rebbutal to Reardon's article and the way he
works. It is by Dr. Brenda Majors, who has a Ph.D in Social Psychology
from Purdue University, and is a professor and researcher in the
Department of Psychology at the Univ. of California in Santa Barbara.
Basically, she rips his methods apart, points out numerous flagarent
errors in data and methodology, and shows that nobody on the team that
wrote it was unbiased. In fact, one of them that claimed to be a
medical doctor was not, and did not even correctly and honestly list
the school he was associated with. (Listed : John Bosco Institute,
Actual: St. John Bosco Catechital Institute, which is a divinity
school)
Here are a couple general quotes of Dr. Major's that sets up the
teardown of Reardon:
"It is a fundamental tenet of science that one cannot infer cause from
a correlation between two variables. Consider, for example, the strong
correlation that exists between the number of bars in a city and the
number of churches in a city. How can we explain this finding? Some may
conclude that religion drives people to drink. Others may conclude that
drinking drives people to religion. The most likely explanation,
however, is that the correlation is spurious, caused by a third
unmeasured variable that is associated both with the number of churches
and the number of bars in a city-such as city size."
"Although it is possible that abortion leads to psychiatric problems,
it is just as plausible that the direction of causality is reversed,
namely, that psychiatric problems cause women who become pregnant to
feel less capable of raising a child and to terminate their pregnancy."
Translation for those that are not used to research and peer-reviewed
papers: "Corrolation does not equal causation. Two variables that seem
related in that they change in the same way may be unrelated, or only
related due to a third independent factor."
She continues in the same vein ripping apart Reardon's article. As it
deserves to be.
Basically, she showed that "Dr." Reardon's "Research" is bogus, biased,
and poorly done because they knew the conclusions they wanted before
they started.
The Article I read:
http://www.prochoiceactionnetwork-canada.org/articles/cmaj-study.shtml
Reardon's Article that was cited in above article:
http://www.cmaj.ca/cgi/content/full/168/10/1253
Major's rebuttal and critique of Reardon's article and methods:
http://www.cmaj.ca/cgi/content/full/168/10/1257
Note: These articles both appeared successively in the same issue of
the Canadian Medical Association Journal.
.
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| User: "osprey" |
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| Title: Re: the abortion / suicide connection |
07 Jul 2005 05:59:14 PM |
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"Mark Sebree" <sebree@infionline.net> wrote in message
news:1120776138.516918.126690@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
J Young wrote:
THE ABORTION / SUICIDE CONNECTION
David C. Reardon, Ph.D.
In the 1960's, when abortions were available only for "therapeutic"
reasons, it was not uncommon for persons with the means and know-how to
obtain an abortion on psychiatric grounds. In some states, all that was
necessary was to find an agreeable psychiatrist willing to diagnose
every woman with a problem pregnancy as "suicidal."
[rest of article snipped to save space]
First, you need to provide a cite to where you got this article. You
obviously did not write it yourself. That is plagarism and technically
a violation of copyright.
Good luck prosecuting it, it's virtually impossible.
And here is an excellent rebbutal to Reardon's article and the way he
works. It is by Dr. Brenda Majors, who has a Ph.D in Social Psychology
from Purdue University, and is a professor and researcher in the
Department of Psychology at the Univ. of California in Santa Barbara.
Basically, she rips his methods apart, points out numerous flagarent
errors in data and methodology, and shows that nobody on the team that
wrote it was unbiased.
Is Dr. Brenda Majors unbiased?
In fact, one of them that claimed to be a
medical doctor was not,
cite?
and did not even correctly and honestly list
the school he was associated with. (Listed : John Bosco Institute,
Actual: St. John Bosco Catechital Institute, which is a divinity
school)
Here are a couple general quotes of Dr. Major's that sets up the
teardown of Reardon:
"It is a fundamental tenet of science that one cannot infer cause from
a correlation between two variables. Consider, for example, the strong
correlation that exists between the number of bars in a city and the
number of churches in a city. How can we explain this finding? Some may
conclude that religion drives people to drink. Others may conclude that
drinking drives people to religion. The most likely explanation,
however, is that the correlation is spurious, caused by a third
unmeasured variable that is associated both with the number of churches
and the number of bars in a city-such as city size."
"Although it is possible that abortion leads to psychiatric problems,
it is just as plausible that the direction of causality is reversed,
namely, that psychiatric problems cause women who become pregnant to
feel less capable of raising a child and to terminate their pregnancy."
I don't see where she tears Reardon apart. Interesting but no "teardown".
Translation for those that are not used to research and peer-reviewed
papers: "Corrolation does not equal causation. Two variables that seem
related in that they change in the same way may be unrelated, or only
related due to a third independent factor."
However, Dr. Majors does say "Although it is possible that abortion leads to
psychiatric problems"
She continues in the same vein ripping apart Reardon's article. As it
deserves to be.
No, not really. She has an interesting article but no "ripping apart".
It is most like you who is unbiased and reading way too much into this.
Basically, she showed that "Dr." Reardon's "Research" is bogus, biased,
and poorly done because they knew the conclusions they wanted before
they started.
The Article I read:
http://www.prochoiceactionnetwork-canada.org/articles/cmaj-study.shtml
Reardon's Article that was cited in above article:
http://www.cmaj.ca/cgi/content/full/168/10/1253
Major's rebuttal and critique of Reardon's article and methods:
http://www.cmaj.ca/cgi/content/full/168/10/1257
Note: These articles both appeared successively in the same issue of
the Canadian Medical Association Journal.
.
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| User: "Ray Fischer" |
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| Title: Re: the abortion / suicide connection |
07 Jul 2005 11:15:06 PM |
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osprey <co@mail.com> wrote:
"Mark Sebree" <sebree@infionline.net> wrote in message
J Young wrote:
THE ABORTION / SUICIDE CONNECTION
David C. Reardon, Ph.D.
In the 1960's, when abortions were available only for "therapeutic"
[rest of article snipped to save space]
First, you need to provide a cite to where you got this article. You
obviously did not write it yourself. That is plagarism and technically
a violation of copyright.
Good luck prosecuting it, it's virtually impossible.
Who said anything about prosecution, moron?
And here is an excellent rebbutal to Reardon's article and the way he
works. It is by Dr. Brenda Majors, who has a Ph.D in Social Psychology
from Purdue University, and is a professor and researcher in the
Department of Psychology at the Univ. of California in Santa Barbara.
Basically, she rips his methods apart, points out numerous flagarent
errors in data and methodology, and shows that nobody on the team that
wrote it was unbiased.
In fact, one of them that claimed to be a
medical doctor was not,
cite?
Provided in the article, moron.
and did not even correctly and honestly list
the school he was associated with. (Listed : John Bosco Institute,
Actual: St. John Bosco Catechital Institute, which is a divinity
school)
Here are a couple general quotes of Dr. Major's that sets up the
teardown of Reardon:
"It is a fundamental tenet of science that one cannot infer cause from
a correlation between two variables. Consider, for example, the strong
correlation that exists between the number of bars in a city and the
number of churches in a city. How can we explain this finding? Some may
conclude that religion drives people to drink. Others may conclude that
drinking drives people to religion. The most likely explanation,
however, is that the correlation is spurious, caused by a third
unmeasured variable that is associated both with the number of churches
and the number of bars in a city-such as city size."
"Although it is possible that abortion leads to psychiatric problems,
it is just as plausible that the direction of causality is reversed,
namely, that psychiatric problems cause women who become pregnant to
feel less capable of raising a child and to terminate their pregnancy."
I don't see where she tears Reardon apart. Interesting but no "teardown".
That's because you're a moron who doesn't even understand why
Reardon's crap is crap.
Translation for those that are not used to research and peer-reviewed
papers: "Corrolation does not equal causation. Two variables that seem
related in that they change in the same way may be unrelated, or only
related due to a third independent factor."
However, Dr. Majors does say "Although it is possible that abortion leads to
psychiatric problems"
It's also possible that you're a child molester.
She continues in the same vein ripping apart Reardon's article. As it
deserves to be.
No, not really.
Yes, *****, really.
She has an interesting article but no "ripping apart".
You're a stupid *****.
Basically, she showed that "Dr." Reardon's "Research" is bogus, biased,
and poorly done because they knew the conclusions they wanted before
they started.
The Article I read:
http://www.prochoiceactionnetwork-canada.org/articles/cmaj-study.shtml
Reardon's Article that was cited in above article:
http://www.cmaj.ca/cgi/content/full/168/10/1253
Major's rebuttal and critique of Reardon's article and methods:
http://www.cmaj.ca/cgi/content/full/168/10/1257
Note: These articles both appeared successively in the same issue of
the Canadian Medical Association Journal.
--
Ray Fischer
rfischer@sonic.net
.
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| User: "Mark Sebree" |
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| Title: Re: the abortion / suicide connection |
08 Jul 2005 12:28:57 AM |
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osprey wrote:
"Mark Sebree" <sebree@infionline.net> wrote in message
news:1120776138.516918.126690@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
J Young wrote:
THE ABORTION / SUICIDE CONNECTION
David C. Reardon, Ph.D.
In the 1960's, when abortions were available only for "therapeutic"
reasons, it was not uncommon for persons with the means and know-how to
obtain an abortion on psychiatric grounds. In some states, all that was
necessary was to find an agreeable psychiatrist willing to diagnose
every woman with a problem pregnancy as "suicidal."
[rest of article snipped to save space]
First, you need to provide a cite to where you got this article. You
obviously did not write it yourself. That is plagarism and technically
a violation of copyright.
Good luck prosecuting it, it's virtually impossible.
Only the copyright owner has the right of filing a civil suit against
him. I was warning him that he was treading a fine line that could
land him in court. I was not threatening to file a lawsuit against
him.
And here is an excellent rebbutal to Reardon's article and the way he
works. It is by Dr. Brenda Majors, who has a Ph.D in Social Psychology
from Purdue University, and is a professor and researcher in the
Department of Psychology at the Univ. of California in Santa Barbara.
Basically, she rips his methods apart, points out numerous flagarent
errors in data and methodology, and shows that nobody on the team that
wrote it was unbiased.
Is Dr. Brenda Majors unbiased?
It is more likely that she is unbiased than Reardon is. And Majors was
not presenting any new research, she was critiquing his research and
methods. There is a major difference between the two. It is certain
that she has the credentials to support her critique.
In fact, one of them that claimed to be a
medical doctor was not,
cite?
Given in my post, if you had bothered to read the entire article that I
cited.
and did not even correctly and honestly list
the school he was associated with. (Listed : John Bosco Institute,
Actual: St. John Bosco Catechital Institute, which is a divinity
school)
Here are a couple general quotes of Dr. Major's that sets up the
teardown of Reardon:
"It is a fundamental tenet of science that one cannot infer cause from
a correlation between two variables. Consider, for example, the strong
correlation that exists between the number of bars in a city and the
number of churches in a city. How can we explain this finding? Some may
conclude that religion drives people to drink. Others may conclude that
drinking drives people to religion. The most likely explanation,
however, is that the correlation is spurious, caused by a third
unmeasured variable that is associated both with the number of churches
and the number of bars in a city-such as city size."
"Although it is possible that abortion leads to psychiatric problems,
it is just as plausible that the direction of causality is reversed,
namely, that psychiatric problems cause women who become pregnant to
feel less capable of raising a child and to terminate their pregnancy."
I don't see where she tears Reardon apart. Interesting but no "teardown".
The you did not read the article. She points out flaws and obvious
bias, starting with the fact that every person involved in the suit is
known to be anti-abortion, and includes flawed methodology, lack of
tying two variable together yet stating that they are related,
improperly screened control groups, misleading readers about the
researchers' credentials, disagreement of the results with previous
studies without explanation of the discrepancies, and so on.
Translation for those that are not used to research and peer-reviewed
papers: "Corrolation does not equal causation. Two variables that seem
related in that they change in the same way may be unrelated, or only
related due to a third independent factor."
However, Dr. Majors does say "Although it is possible that abortion leads to
psychiatric problems"
How about completing the quote, and including the following paragraph,
which continues the analysis on this point. This is one of the places
that she shows Reardon's sloppy work.
"Or, the causality could be in the opposite direction. Major says,
"Although it is possible that abortion leads to psychiatric problems,
it is just as plausible that the direction of causality is reversed,
namely, that psychiatric problems cause women who become pregnant to
feel less capable of raising a child and to terminate their pregnancy."
Reardon's study tried to adjust for this by omitting women who had been
admitted for psychiatric care in the year before the pregnancy.
However, Major notes that the authors did not look at psychiatric
admissions prior to that year, nor did they look at other mental health
indicators that might have led women to choose an abortion.
"The most plausible explanation for the observed association between
abortion and mental health problems, according to Major, "is that it is
spurious: it reflects unmeasured differences that existed before the
target pregnancy between the women in the delivery and the abortion
samples." In other words, the life circumstances of women who continue
a pregnancy probably differ significantly from those of women who abort
a pregnancy, and this can impact mental health. Abortion providers and
clinics are everyday witnesses to the fact that women who seek
abortions are, on average, more likely to be younger, single, have
relationship problems, suffer from health problems, have drug or
alcohol abuse problems, or be going through a difficult or
dysfunctional time in their lives, compared to women who carry to term.
For example, pregnant women in abusive relationships are more likely to
have an abortion than pregnant women who are happily married. It's
reasonable to infer that the former are also more likely to seek
psychiatric help-but the reasons probably relate to their abusive
relationship, not the abortion."
What Dr. Majors is saying he is that Reardon did not normalize his
data, and make sure that apples were being compared to apples. If you
compare a dysfunctional or troubled group with a group that is neither
dysfunctional nor trouble and how they react to a long term stressful
situation, of course you are going to get very different reaction and
results from the two groups. The group that starts out with more
problems and a higher tendency towards problems is going to have more
problems after they are subjugated to the stress. It does not matter
if it is pregnancy, combat, or an extreme survival situation.
She continues in the same vein ripping apart Reardon's article. As it
deserves to be.
No, not really. She has an interesting article but no "ripping apart".
Then you obviously did not read the article.
It is most like you who is unbiased and reading way too much into this.
Not at all. I am just providing a rebuttal from someone that knows
what she is talking about, and from the same journal and issue that
printed Reardon's article.
Basically, she showed that "Dr." Reardon's "Research" is bogus, biased,
and poorly done because they knew the conclusions they wanted before
they started.
The Article I read:
http://www.prochoiceactionnetwork-canada.org/articles/cmaj-study.shtml
Reardon's Article that was cited in above article:
http://www.cmaj.ca/cgi/content/full/168/10/1253
Major's rebuttal and critique of Reardon's article and methods:
http://www.cmaj.ca/cgi/content/full/168/10/1257
Note: These articles both appeared successively in the same issue of
the Canadian Medical Association Journal.
Mark Sebree
.
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| User: "J Young" |
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| Title: Re: the abortion / suicide connection |
07 Jul 2005 10:02:25 PM |
|
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Mark Sebree wrote:
J Young wrote:
THE ABORTION / SUICIDE CONNECTION
David C. Reardon, Ph.D.
In the 1960's, when abortions were available only for "therapeutic"
reasons, it was not uncommon for persons with the means and know-how to
obtain an abortion on psychiatric grounds. In some states, all that was
necessary was to find an agreeable psychiatrist willing to diagnose
every woman with a problem pregnancy as "suicidal."
[rest of article snipped to save space]
First, you need to provide a cite to where you got this article. You
obviously did not write it yourself. That is plagarism and technically
a violation of copyright.
And here is an excellent rebbutal to Reardon's article and the way he
works.
Obviously I didn't write it myself, which is why I put the author's
name beneath the title where it belongs. You understood that quite
clearly when you offered a rebuttal to the article.
.
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| User: "Mark Sebree" |
|
| Title: Re: the abortion / suicide connection |
08 Jul 2005 12:09:11 AM |
|
|
J Young wrote:
Mark Sebree wrote:
J Young wrote:
THE ABORTION / SUICIDE CONNECTION
David C. Reardon, Ph.D.
In the 1960's, when abortions were available only for "therapeutic"
reasons, it was not uncommon for persons with the means and know-how to
obtain an abortion on psychiatric grounds. In some states, all that was
necessary was to find an agreeable psychiatrist willing to diagnose
every woman with a problem pregnancy as "suicidal."
[rest of article snipped to save space]
First, you need to provide a cite to where you got this article. You
obviously did not write it yourself. That is plagarism and technically
a violation of copyright.
And here is an excellent rebbutal to Reardon's article and the way he
works.
Obviously I didn't write it myself, which is why I put the author's
name beneath the title where it belongs.
But no link to the article. Where did you get it from? Why did you
have to quote the entire thing?
You understood that quite
clearly when you offered a rebuttal to the article.
I did not quote everything that I cited. I only quoted a small amount
of the entire article, and gave a link to the article I was quoting,
AND links to the articles it was quoting and referring to.
Mark Sebree
.
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| User: "DanielSan" |
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| Title: Re: the abortion / suicide connection |
06 Jul 2005 02:40:30 PM |
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J Young wrote:
THE ABORTION / SUICIDE CONNECTION
....is unfounded.
--
****************************************************
* DanielSan -- alt.atheism #2226 *
*--------------------------------------------------*
* "No one ever demonstrated, so far as I am aware, *
* the non-existence of Zeus or Thor - but they *
* have few followers now." Arthur C. Clarke *
****************************************************
.
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| User: "Stephen" |
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| Title: Re: the abortion / suicide connection |
06 Jul 2005 04:37:00 PM |
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DanielSan wrote:
J Young wrote:
THE ABORTION / SUICIDE CONNECTION
...is unfounded.
--
But probably only because any attempt to research the matter gets blocked by
feminist groups.
.
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| User: "Clayton: Master Of Scrotum Origami" |
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| Title: Re: the abortion / suicide connection |
06 Jul 2005 07:15:44 PM |
|
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"Stephen" <www@org.net> wrote in message
news:JqydnYFIKYdl01HfRVn-hA@rogers.com...
DanielSan wrote:
J Young wrote:
THE ABORTION / SUICIDE CONNECTION
...is unfounded.
But probably only because any attempt to research the matter gets blocked
by
feminist groups.
Yeah....them wimmen shud be bare foot and pregnant like gawd wants them to
be! Them upity bitches betta keep they mouths shut in church like Gawd
tells them to or you's el hafta give dem a whuppin....but os course dey
loves ta bee get a beatin' othawise dey wouldn't be mouthin off all da
time!!!!!
.
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| User: "Susan Cohen" |
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| Title: Re: the abortion / suicide connection |
06 Jul 2005 07:47:29 PM |
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"Clayton: Master Of Scrotum Origami" <cjfat@SPAMBLOCKphonymails.com> wrote
in message news:42cc7378$0$10104$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au...
"Stephen" <www@org.net> wrote in message
news:JqydnYFIKYdl01HfRVn-hA@rogers.com...
DanielSan wrote:
J Young wrote:
THE ABORTION / SUICIDE CONNECTION
...is unfounded.
But probably only because any attempt to research the matter gets blocked
by
feminist groups.
Yeah....them wimmen shud be bare foot and pregnant like gawd wants them to
be!
We made sure to get a picture of me cooking in the kitchen with no shoes on
when I was pregnant. Of course, we had to fake it - I was too sick to cook
:-}
Susan
Them upity bitches betta keep they mouths shut in church like Gawd
tells them to or you's el hafta give dem a whuppin....but os course dey
loves ta bee get a beatin' othawise dey wouldn't be mouthin off all da
time!!!!!
.
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| User: "Elroy Willis" |
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| Title: Re: the abortion / suicide connection |
07 Jul 2005 09:57:19 AM |
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Clayton: Master Of Scrotum Origami wrote in alt.atheism
Stephen <www@org.net> wrote in message
DanielSan wrote:
J Young wrote:
THE ABORTION / SUICIDE CONNECTION
...is unfounded.
But probably only because any attempt to research the matter gets blocked
by feminist groups.
Yeah....them wimmen shud be bare foot and pregnant like gawd wants them to
be! Them upity bitches betta keep they mouths shut in church like Gawd
tells them to or you's el hafta give dem a whuppin....but os course dey
loves ta bee get a beatin' othawise dey wouldn't be mouthin off all da
time!!!!!
Dey needs to put des scarfs on der heads, so de men don't get dem
lustful thoughts. Dey needs to cover everting except der eyes
like de ghosts!
--
Elroy Willis
www.elroysemporium.com
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| User: "Susan Cohen" |
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| Title: Re: the abortion / suicide connection |
06 Jul 2005 06:14:20 PM |
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"Stephen" <www@org.net> wrote in message
news:JqydnYFIKYdl01HfRVn-hA@rogers.com...
DanielSan wrote:
J Young wrote:
THE ABORTION / SUICIDE CONNECTION
...is unfounded.
--
But probably only because any attempt to research the matter gets blocked
by
feminist groups.
Yeah, rightm because feminist groups are so powerful no one has to worry
about the right to choose getting thrown out.
Good grief.
.
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| User: "Somewriter" |
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| Title: Re: the abortion / suicide connection |
06 Jul 2005 08:02:56 PM |
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On Wed, 6 Jul 2005 17:37:00 -0400, "Stephen" <www@org.net> wrote:
DanielSan wrote:
J Young wrote:
THE ABORTION / SUICIDE CONNECTION
...is unfounded.
--
But probably only because any attempt to research the matter gets blocked by
feminist groups.
....for the obvious reason any reasonable person can understand is that
it's a hot load of equine feces.
.
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| User: "DanielSan" |
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| Title: Re: the abortion / suicide connection |
06 Jul 2005 04:37:49 PM |
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Stephen wrote:
DanielSan wrote:
J Young wrote:
THE ABORTION / SUICIDE CONNECTION
...is unfounded.
--
But probably only because any attempt to research the matter gets blocked by
feminist groups.
Prove it. Until that time, your assertion remains unfounded and
therefore, all I can say is "Good day to you, sir."
--
****************************************************
* DanielSan -- alt.atheism #2226 *
*--------------------------------------------------*
* "No one ever demonstrated, so far as I am aware, *
* the non-existence of Zeus or Thor - but they *
* have few followers now." Arthur C. Clarke *
****************************************************
.
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| User: "Paul Duca" |
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| Title: Re: the abortion / suicide connection |
06 Jul 2005 08:22:29 PM |
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in article 1120669799.572181.313960@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com, J Young at
youngopinions@aol.com wrote on 7/6/05 2:01 PM:
THE ABORTION / SUICIDE CONNECTION
Resent the fact your mother couldn't have one, so she chose the
other?
Paul
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