| Topic: |
Religions > Atheism |
| User: |
"Words of Truth" |
| Date: |
12 Dec 2004 11:42:53 PM |
| Object: |
The Absurdity of Atheism |
THE ABSURDITY OF ATHEISM
Fred Klett (a former atheist)
So you're an atheist. Mazel Tov, at least you aren't wishy washy. As a
former atheist myself, I won't condemn you. How could I? Some atheists
think they've taken a heroic stand, but could it be that they really
don't want to face up to the possibility that God is indeed there? I
hope you'll be intellectually honest enough to consider what I have to
say and see if it makes sense.
No one who has prejudged an issue can be convinced of anything
contrary to what he wants to believe. There are still those who insist
the earth is flat and no one can convince them otherwise, no matter
what the evidence. There are always folks, no matter if religious or
atheistic, who stubbornly believe what they prefer, no matter if
reason and fact show otherwise. Someone like this has the unspoken
philosophy: Don't confuse me with the facts. My mind is already made
up. Ask yourself: Am I open-minded or narrow minded? Am I willing to
change my mind if I can be shown atheism doesn't make sense?
You might say, If God is there, let him prove it to me. I don't want
to take an irrational leap of faith. Fine. In Isaiah 2:18 God says:
come let us reason together. He wants us to reason and He certainly
wants us to be be rational, but He will not submit himself to human
scrutiny; to do so he would need to stop being God! He will not bow to
our perverse judgements. Ask yourself, Would I ever be willing to
believe God is there, however strong the evidence? You see, your
problem may not be in your head as much as in your heart. Perhaps
you've already taken a leap of faith. To assert God cannot exist,
despite the impossibility of proving that statement, is the ultimate
irrational leap!
THE IRRATIONALITY OF ATHEISM
Atheism tends to exalt reason, but it is actually irrational. One
cannot disprove God exists. To dogmatically assert something
unprovable is hardly rational! You might reply: But I can t disprove a
giant purple frog on Mars controls the universe, either. Granted, one
can never disprove any given thing exists, but the existence of God is
not only logically possible, it is philosophically essential. (We'll
get to that later.) The atheistic position, on the other hand, is
logically impossible. Why do I say that? In order to prove the
assertion No God exists, one would need to comprehensively know all of
reality. Comprehensive knowledge of reality is called omniscience. One
would need to be omniscient in order to prove there is no God, but if
one were omniscient one would, by definition, already be God! So,
logically, the only one capable of disproving the existence of God
would be God himself! Atheism is inherently self-contradictory. The
evidence for the existence of God is there for all to see, only we
refuse to see it. King David wrote: The fool says in his heart there
is no God.1 In other words, Atheism is irrational. Apart from God
there is no basis for truth or ethics. For the sake of brevity, let's
simply consider ethics.
NO PHILOSOPHICAL BASIS FOR ETHICS
Beyond dispute there are moral atheists. I ve known atheists who are
more ethical than some people claiming to believe in a god. This is
not the issue. The question is, why be ethical? Can an adequate basis
for morality be found given atheistic premises? Think about it. Unless
God exists, there is no eternal and transcendent standard for right
and wrong. If God did not give the Ten Commandments to Moses at Sinai,
thereby establishing a moral standard above human creation, we are
merely left with humanly devised scruples. If humanity is left to
create its own ethical standards, we are left with only three options
to base ethics upon: 1) collective tradition, 2) human survival, or 3)
personal preference.
IS COLLECTIVE TRADITION AN ETHICAL BASE?
Those who argue that morality is properly based upon what society as a
whole deems moral have a big problem. What one society says is moral
another says is immoral. Nazi Germany held that it was morally good
and beneficial to exterminate the Jewish people. The Allies saw the
Nazis as evil and fought against them. Who was right? If one believes
God gave the law You shall not murder, the answer is obvious. Any
society that advocates murder is evil. How can an atheist respond?
Most would admit the Nazis were evil, but according to what standard?
Were the Nazis evil just because the Allies said they were evil or
were they in fact evil? One can try to argue that it isn't just what a
few societies say that matters, but what the majority of human
societies agree upon. This does provide a better basis, since God has
given us a conscience, but it has been corrupted by rebellion. At one
time most human societies placed less value on female offspring than
on males. In many societies female infants were left to die. In some
places this exists today. This is morally wrong, no matter if the
whole of human society were to say otherwise! Basing morality on human
society does not provide an adequate answer.
WHAT ABOUT HUMAN SURVIVAL
What of an evolutionary model for morality? Why not posit that
whatever benefits human survival is moral? To some this may be
appealing, but first ask some questions. Why, based upon atheistic
assumptions, should we logically value human survival? What difference
does it all make? Why is life valuable? Isn't belief in human survival
itself a moral assumption, a value judgement that has no basis in an
atheistic world view? Furthermore, consider what an ethic based solely
on survival could lead to: the elimination of those perceived to have
less survival value. The Nazi movement, based upon an evolutionary
eugenic ideal of developing a super race, destroyed those deemed by
them inferior or unsuitable. Reproduction was to be limited to those
deemed most fit. Mankind, when left to its own devices to develop its
moral basis, commits systemized murder and oppression. Consider the
atrocities of Stalin, Pol Pot, Hitler, and the horrible situations we
have witnessed in Rwanda and Bosnia. Both atheists and religious
people so easily justify murder. Just because we have also seen
horrors committed by those claiming to believe in some sort of god
doesn't disprove my point. I'm not advocating just any old god! It is
still true that when any society abandons the God-given law, You shall
not murder, horror results.
FEELINGS, NOTHING MORE THAN FEELINGS...
What of basing morality on one's personal preferences? What of just
saying you can know what is wrong by following your heart? What a
dippy idea this is! Jeffrey Dahmer's heart led him to murder and
cannibalize his fellow humans! Basing morality on feelings is the
ultimate in irrationality. This puts moral judgement on the level of
personal taste. Dahmer might have thought you suitable to his taste!
I've met many atheists who are judgmental of religious people who have
committed great atrocities, but upon what basis? Does this make any
sense? Atheistic assumptions irresistibly lead to the conclusion that
morality is nothing more than a matter of personal or societal
preference. Based upon an atheistic philosophy, the very appropriate
disdain for the despicable murderers of humanity makes about as much
sense as a dog lover's disdain of those who prefer cats! How silly.
Unless there is a moral standard beyond individual or societal
preference, there is no logical basis for condemning atrocity. I
challenge any atheist to give me a basis for ethics beyond mere
personal preference, social custom, or survival. They simply cannot do
it. Post-modern philosophers have come to the conclusion that there is
no hope of finding morality or meaning based on materialistic
presuppositions. They are quite right. It is a good thing that many
atheists are too decent and too inconsistent to live out the
irresistible moral conclusions of their philosophy!
Another thought: we even transgress the scruples we ourselves invent.
Is this logical? No, but this is consistent with the Biblical view of
mankind, which says we are by our nature law-breakers and rebels who
don't want to believe in the true God. Thank God there is an amnesty
program for rebels and atheists! (More on that later.)
SUPPRESSING THE TRUTH
A wise rabbi, the Apostle Paul, wrote:
The anger of God is being revealed from heaven against all the
Godlessness and wickedness of men who suppress the truth by their
wickedness, since what may be known about God is plain to them,
because God has made it plain to them. For since the creation of the
world God's invisible qualities, His eternal power and divine nature,
have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so
that men are without excuse. For although they knew God, they neither
glorified Him as God nor gave thanks to Him, but their thinking became
futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. Although they claimed
to be wise they became fools2...
God's existence is clearly seen in what He has made. The intricate
brilliance of the created order reveals the mind of an infinitely
intelligent Designer just as surely as a great work of architecture or
a complex piece of technology reveals the mind of its designer.
Furthermore, our own consciences and sense of justice, though
corrupted by our rebellion, still tell us there is right and wrong and
a God who has a perfect moral standard. The truth is, if you are an
atheist, it is not because it makes sense, it is because you don't
want to face up to the fact that there is a God out there to whom you
are accountable. You don't like God and are trying to hide from Him.
You need not feel this way. God has provided a way back for you.
How do we know God exists? Unless we begin with the assumption that he
does, we can't know anything else exists! Unless we presuppose that
God created us with the ability to know things through sensory
experience and reason, we have no philosophical basis for trusting
either. Philosophically speaking, unless we know a wise God gave us
our senses, how can we know everything isn't an illusion? As for
reason, we can't prove the validity of reason without using reason! We
must assume what we are trying to prove in order to prove it. All
human reasoning is circular, but when we leave God out of the circle
we are left like a dog chasing its tail without any hope of catching
it! Without beginning with the philosophical presupposition that a God
who has spoken to mankind exists, we are doomed to reason in circles
with no way of knowing how to discern truth.
As for positive proof, there is the communication of God to mankind.
Moses received the Law at Sinai. This was attested by great miracles
witnessed by millions. The Hebrew prophets foretold the rise and fall
of nations and spoke of the coming of a Messiah. Jesus fulfilled the
prophecies of the Jewish Bible.3 His resurrection is historically
documented, having been witnessed by the early Messianic Jewish
believers who recorded their testimonies and were willing to die for
what they knew to be true.4
Many have asked: Does life have meaning? Why do I exist? There is
abundant meaning to life when we know the Living God. Frankly, atheism
is boring, but knowing, enjoying, and serving God gives life purpose
and excitement. On what basis does human life have value? Each of us
was created in God's image and therefore each individual is of great
value.
AMNESTY FOR ATHEISTS
Good news! There is hope for atheists! After the Vietnam War there
were many expatriate Americans living in Canada and other places. An
amnesty program was established to welcome these people home. The
message was: Come back home. All is forgiven. You will be received
back with open arms. God also has an amnesty program. The true God is
both just and loving. His justice demands that our rebellion be
punished. His love provided a means to fulfill this justice and
restore us to a right relationship with him. This is where the Messiah
comes in. Out of love for us, God took on a human nature and visited
earth to take upon himself the punishment we deserve for our
lawbreaking. Jesus died as a substitute for rebels to pay the penalty
of those who deserve it, whether religious or atheistic. There is a
judgement day coming, and God has proven this to us by raising Jesus
from the dead. You have this choice: let the Messiah take your
punishment or take it yourself. The choice seems obvious to me! Why
turn down a free gift? What a great amnesty program! God wants each of
us to admit we are wrong, receive the payment He has provided, and
come in with our hands up letting Him rule over our lives. He promises
to renew us, to enable us to live a new life in His service, and to
let us experience His presence forever. God calls atheists to come
back home, spiritually speaking. All can be forgiven, even atheism.
God calls atheists to turn from their rebellion and to trust the
Living God through his Messiah, Jesus.
STILL NOT CONVINCED?
If you persist in your atheism, one day you will stand before God and
you will have no doubt in your mind concerning His existence. His
awesome reality will be undeniable to you, even though you won't want
to believe it! Are you still open-minded enough for more information?
Maybe you'd like to get together with someone for a friendly and
relaxed talk about these things. Maybe you are intrigued, but wish
some more in-depth reading. We are happy to help.
Notes:
Ps. 14:1
Rom. 1:18-22
Isaiah 53, Micah 5:1, Jeremiah 31:31-34
http://www.chaim.org/atheist.htm
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| User: "Tron" |
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| Title: Re: The Absurdity of Atheism |
14 Dec 2004 02:41:08 AM |
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"Words of Truth" <wordsoftruth417@hotmail.com> skrev i melding
news:3d02dea6.0412122142.29010f95@posting.google.com...
THE ABSURDITY OF ATHEISM
The sad part is that of all people concerned, christians know _least_ what
the true contents and implications of christianity are about. Theological
dogma is one enormous exercise of scrutinizing the finger that points to the
moon, taking the garment of fable around the hard to convey philosophical
insight to be litteral truth and commandment.
You christians should open your heart and read with faith; faith being the
opposite of fear. Christian "piety" is the sum of all fears, projected; onto
the word, and onto the meaning of e.g. the words accredited to Jesus. You
might discover creation.
/
Personally, I believe that the Jewish faith is closest to the truth.
Religion is a vast drama of the relation between God and his chosen people.
Us others are the heathen masses, cheering from the orchestra seats, but not
otherwise concerned./
The funny part is this controversy over God's exsistence. For the sake of
argument, let's grant that God exists. Then what? Does that solve any
problems? Nay, I say unto thee, for nothing follows from that. Consider:
Step one: A man points a gun at you (and your family, and the rest of
humanity).
Step two: The man commands you to do praise him for sparing your life, which
will protect you from being shot.
Step three: If you do not obey the command to do praise him for sparing your
life, he will pull the trigger.
How does that differ from:
God creates, a lot; e.g. Hell.
God offers belief in himself as protection against going to hell.
If you do not obey the command to believe, he will send you to hell.
We need God to protect us from hell, which is something he created?
In truth, the only thing we need God for, is to protect us against God.
And God is the only thing we need God to protect us from.
Surely we would be better off without God in the first place.
In the words of some french poet. If God exists, we must oppose him.
Atheism is only half the fun of anti-theism.
T
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| User: "Solomon \You Dirty Mother\ Kozanski" |
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| Title: Re: The Absurdity of Atheism |
14 Dec 2004 03:16:39 AM |
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"Words of Truth" <wordsoftruth417@hotmail.com> wrote a load of ***** that
i'm not even going to waste my bandwidth repeating.
<circumcised>
AND..... like every evangelical protestant *****, you make the typical
MISTAKE of assuming that IF there's a god, your load of kindling, A.K.A.,
"the bible", is somehow a ***** authority on it!
your bible dont know *****, turkey!
--
Brought to you, courtesy of Kozanski's Morgue & Grill, LLC
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| User: "Pastor Ized" |
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| Title: Re: The Absurdity of Atheism |
13 Dec 2004 01:21:24 AM |
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"Words of Truth" <wordsoftruth417@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:3d02dea6.0412122142.29010f95@posting.google.com...
THE ABSURDITY OF ATHEISM
Blah! Blah! Blah!......
Fred Klett (a former atheist)
STILL NOT CONVINCED?
If you persist in your atheism, one day you will stand before God and
you will have no doubt in your mind concerning His existence.
The god of athiest is immensly more powerfull than your puny sheep god, he
has mighty arm's with which he weilds his awsome weapons, therby defending
puny hoomans from the sheep god's lust for burned hooman flesh. Not
convinced? find out more about this powerful god and his friends at,
http://www.foxhome.com/mmpr/index_frames.html.
His awesome reality will be undeniable to you, even though you won't want
to believe it! Are you still open-minded enough for more information?
Maybe you'd like to get together with someone for a friendly and
relaxed talk about these things. Maybe you are intrigued, but wish
some more in-depth reading. We are happy to help.
Yawns! rolls over and falls asleep to later dream of a world inhabited soley
by oxymorons.
LW
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| User: "Tukla Ratte" |
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| Title: Re: The Absurdity of Atheism |
15 Dec 2004 11:49:09 AM |
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Pastor Ized wrote:
< snip >
The god of athiest is immensly more powerfull than your puny sheep god, he
has mighty arm's with which he weilds his awsome weapons, therby defending
puny hoomans from the sheep god's lust for burned hooman flesh. Not
convinced? find out more about this powerful god and his friends at,
http://www.foxhome.com/mmpr/index_frames.html.
Zordon's da god!
< snip >
--
Tukla, Eater of Theists, Squeaker of Chew Toys
Official Mascot of Alt.Atheism, aa 1347
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| User: "FreeThink" |
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| Title: Re: The Absurdity of Atheism |
22 Jan 2005 04:35:24 AM |
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How do we know God exists? Unless we begin with the assumption that
he
does, we can't know anything else exists!
I think the key word here is assumption. I could apply that to any
theory and prompt 'truth'. Ok, I'll play along.
Unless we presuppose that
God created us with the ability to know things through sensory
experience and reason, we have no philosophical basis for trusting
either. Philosophically speaking, unless we know a wise God gave us
our senses, how can we know everything isn't an illusion?
Correct. We don't know everything isn't an illusion. Presupposition
fixed that problem.
As for
reason, we can't prove the validity of reason without using reason!
We
must assume what we are trying to prove in order to prove it. All
human reasoning is circular, but when we leave God out of the circle
we are left like a dog chasing its tail without any hope of catching
it! Without beginning with the philosophical presupposition that a
God
who has spoken to mankind exists, we are doomed to reason in circles
with no way of knowing how to discern truth.
True. All circular. Thanks to our assumption, not anymore!
<snip>
Many have asked: Does life have meaning? Why do I exist?
I don't know. Can I presuppose a reason? Lets say I'm here to play the
guitar! :-)
There is
abundant meaning to life when we know the Living God. Frankly,
atheism
is boring,
Tell me about it. Lets assume lots of meaning. This is fun!
but knowing, enjoying, and serving God gives life purpose
and excitement.
Christianity is kind of like Disneyland! Lets go on the heaven ride!
On what basis does human life have value?
Lets just assume it has a bunch of it!
That was fun. What game should we play now? Judaism?
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| User: "Richard Smol" |
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| Title: Re: The Absurdity of Atheism |
13 Dec 2004 04:41:47 AM |
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You might say, If God is there, let him prove it to me. I don't want
to take an irrational leap of faith. Fine. In Isaiah 2:18 God says:
come let us reason together. He wants us to reason and He certainly
wants us to be be rational, but He will not submit himself to human
scrutiny; to do so he would need to stop being God!
So what? According to your myth, your god is all-mighty, so it would
be easy for him to not be god for a while so he could submit himself to
human questioning. Not that I see a reason why he wouldn' be able to
do that
while being a god. Then again, nothing in your religion makes any
sense,
really.
<- snip rest of idiocy ->
RS
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| User: "enki" |
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| Title: Re: The Absurdity of Atheism |
13 Dec 2004 12:03:49 AM |
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Did you write all this yourslef or is it cut and paste?
This whole god thing is not realy important to me, it is so bronze age.
For real, I am not anit religon or god athough I am not a big
believer. My consern is that those who abandon god have created the
most brutal regiems on the face of the earth. I agree with Nietzsche
when said that religon is based on false premices and when we realize
that it will lead to nilhism. Tha is what happened in the first part
of the last century. I believe that our religon is a good idea but was
corrpted when it became an organ of the Roman Empire.
I can't wait unit the real rabbid repsonders come out of the woodwork.
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| User: "Christopher A. Lee" |
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| Title: Re: The Absurdity of Atheism |
13 Dec 2004 07:22:07 AM |
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On 12 Dec 2004 22:03:49 -0800, "enki" <enki034@yahoo.com> wrote:
Did you write all this yourslef or is it cut and paste?
This whole god thing is not realy important to me, it is so bronze age.
For real, I am not anit religon or god athough I am not a big
believer. My consern is that those who abandon god have created the
most brutal regiems on the face of the earth. I agree with Nietzsche
when said that religon is based on false premices and when we realize
that it will lead to nilhism. Tha is what happened in the first part
of the last century. I believe that our religon is a good idea but was
corrpted when it became an organ of the Roman Empire.
I can't wait unit the real rabbid repsonders come out of the woodwork.
What "rabid responders", liar?
We have a deliberately nasty individual posting a mixture of stupidity
and outright lies to atheists, about atheists.
Why pretend that the natural human response to this is "rabid"?, liar
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| User: "enki" |
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| Title: Re: The Absurdity of Atheism |
13 Dec 2004 11:37:30 AM |
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Hey I read that.
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| User: "John Baker" |
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| Title: Re: The Absurdity of Atheism |
13 Dec 2004 12:35:46 AM |
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On 12 Dec 2004 22:03:49 -0800, "enki" <enki034@yahoo.com> wrote:
Did you write all this yourslef or is it cut and paste?
It's Ray Ambrosini. Everything he posts is copy and paste. He's never
had an original thought in his life, nor, I believe, is he capable of
having one.
This whole god thing is not realy important to me, it is so bronze age.
For real, I am not anit religon or god athough I am not a big
believer. My consern is that those who abandon god have created the
most brutal regiems on the face of the earth. I agree with Nietzsche
when said that religon is based on false premices and when we realize
that it will lead to nilhism. Tha is what happened in the first part
of the last century. I believe that our religon is a good idea but was
corrpted when it became an organ of the Roman Empire.
It's one thing to hold that opinion. It's quite another to be
insulting and condescending about it, ala Ambrosini.
I can't wait unit the real rabbid repsonders come out of the woodwork.
Well, just sit back and enjoy the show. <G>
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| User: "enki" |
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| Title: Re: The Absurdity of Atheism |
13 Dec 2004 11:36:30 AM |
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I don't believe that I was insulting. I was a little flipint. i hope
that I pointed that out. Cut and paste realy defeats the purpose of a
discussion board. If you find an intersting article like in grade
school, tell us in your own words. That will make you smater.
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| User: "John Baker" |
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| Title: Re: The Absurdity of Atheism |
13 Dec 2004 12:59:38 PM |
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On 13 Dec 2004 09:36:30 -0800, "enki" <enki034@yahoo.com> wrote:
I don't believe that I was insulting. I was a little flipint.
I didn't say you were. Ambrosini, on the other hand......
i hope
that I pointed that out. Cut and paste realy defeats the purpose of a
discussion board. If you find an intersting article like in grade
school, tell us in your own words. That will make you smater.
Tell that to Ray. <G>
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| User: "Angela E" |
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| Title: Re: The Absurdity of Atheism |
13 Dec 2004 02:11:15 AM |
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I think your post does much to strengthen my inability to believe in a
god. The examples you use, for instance, to back-up your argument
against the possibility of morality being based on survival -
The Nazi movement, based upon an evolutionary
eugenic ideal of developing a super race, destroyed those deemed by
them inferior or unsuitable. Reproduction was to be limited to those
deemed most fit. Mankind, when left to its own devices to develop its
moral basis, commits systemized murder and oppression. Consider the
atrocities of Stalin, Pol Pot, Hitler, and the horrible situations we
have witnessed in Rwanda and Bosnia.
Or
What of basing morality on one's personal preferences? What of just
saying you can know what is wrong by following your heart? What a
dippy idea this is! Jeffrey Dahmer's heart led him to murder and
cannibalize his fellow humans! Basing morality on feelings is the
ultimate in irrationality. This puts moral judgement on the level of
personal taste. Dahmer might have thought you suitable to his taste!
Humankind's ability to think and reason evolved slowly, as did our
bodies. Kurt Vonnegut opines that our brains are just too darn big,
and therein lies the basis of my non-belief. Learning to reason while
being bombarded with emotion is something we still struggle with today,
and I can easily imagine early man creating all kinds of mythical
powers just to make them feel better.
The brain is still largely unconquered territory. To use the above
examples of obviously insane or at least psychopathic people as an
argument that none of us can trust our brains and so therefore god must
exist because morality exists is insulting at best..
Atheistic assumptions irresistibly lead to the conclusion that
morality is nothing more than a matter of personal or societal
preference.
But above, you suggest survival could be a basis for morality, which
has nothing to do with preference except that we all pretty much prefer
to be alive. However, you fail to completely consider this argument.
People living in a group shouldn't kill each other; the population
would decline, the gene pool would shrink, and eventually that group
would die out. It probably took early man a while to get that one, but
this must be how it started. As we grew more logical, we learned to
REASON -
In Isaiah 2:18 God says:
come let us reason together. He wants us to reason and He certainly
wants us to be be rational,
And we also learned to LOVE, which is really just a certain blend of
neurochemicals and electrical impulses which in it's beginning was a
survival tool to keep us from killing our babies and thus ourselves.
But again, our brains our huge and unwieldy, and they do not always
work correctly. Things go wrong, and we get Stalin, or Hitler, or
Dahmer. Broken brains that do strange things. Society as a whole
recognizes this, even when the person is sometimes able to use their
clever, misfiring brain to seduce some of us into believing their brand
of craziness.
Another thought: we even transgress the scruples we ourselves invent.
Is this logical?
Again, an argument for the complexity of the human brain.
The truth is, if you are an
atheist, it is not because it makes sense, it is because you don't
want to face up to the fact that there is a God out there to whom you
are accountable. You don't like God and are trying to hide from Him.
When I was young, I was quite devout in my belief in the Catholic God.
I attended Sunday school, got my first communion, and began studying
for my confirmation before I became a heathen. But more than that, I
felt a connection to God, I spoke to him and I believed he spoke to me,
not in the crazy "voices in your head" way, but more like having an
imaginary friend. It was nice to never be alone, to know someone was
watching out for you, that there was a grand plan which included me.
It was nice to think that I would never really die, and that someone
was watching and would appreciate what a good person I was. And there
have been times when I wanted so much to believe again, I began praying
and attended church, and spent a lot of time trying to convince myself
it could be true. But I couldn't. I have no faith.
If you think this makes it easier for me, wrongo buddy. I am a good
and moral person, and not because I am expecting a reward or because I
fear divine retribution. Does this not make me a MORE moral person? I
am accountable; to myself, my kids, my family, my community. The world
is a big and scary place, and it would be so much easier to believe in
god. But, as a wise man once said, for those who have faith no proof
is necessary, and for those who don't, no proof is enough. I still
hope for proof that god is real, the same way a tiny part of me still
hopes Santa lives at the North Pole. It would be so nice.....
However, I also believe that religion has been and is still necessary
for most of humankind. Some people need to have the invisible leash of
god's existence to keep them from getting too emotional and doing
something immoral. For those who are insane, this does not count
because they are insane and can therefore reason anything to fit their
distorted views.
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| User: "Josef Balluch" |
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| Title: Re: The Absurdity of Atheism |
13 Dec 2004 08:25:26 AM |
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In a message sent 'round the world, Words of Truth poured fuel on the
fire with the following:
THE ABSURDITY OF ATHEISM
Fred Klett (a former atheist)
Yawwnnn.
....
Atheism tends to exalt reason, but it is actually irrational. One
cannot disprove God exists.
That does not make atheism irrational.
To dogmatically assert something
unprovable is hardly rational!
If so, then theism is irrational.
....
Granted, one
can never disprove any given thing exists, but the existence of God is
not only logically possible, ...
As is the non-existence of any god.
... it is philosophically essential.
Baloney. This has never been demonstrated.
....
The atheistic position, on the other hand, is
logically impossible. Why do I say that? In order to prove the
assertion No God exists, one would need to comprehensively know all of
reality. Comprehensive knowledge of reality is called omniscience. One
would need to be omniscient in order to prove there is no God, but if
one were omniscient one would, by definition, already be God! So,
logically, the only one capable of disproving the existence of God
would be God himself!
Baloney. Logical proofs do not require omniscience, and this is evident
in any math or logic class. Further, omniscience precludes proofs and
disproofs, since proofs and disproofs are only required by those who
need information about reality. An omniscient being, by definition,
already has that information.
Atheism is inherently self-contradictory. The
evidence for the existence of God is there for all to see, only we
refuse to see it.
Naturalistic Fallacy.
http://tinyurl.com/4gbs
King David wrote: The fool says in his heart there
is no God.1 In other words, Atheism is irrational.
ROTFL!!
Argument from Scripture.
Apart from God
there is no basis for truth or ethics. For the sake of brevity, let's
simply consider ethics.
Translation: It's the only argument I can dredge up on short notice.
....
Can an adequate basis
for morality be found given atheistic premises? Think about it. Unless
God exists, there is no eternal and transcendent standard for right
and wrong.
Translation: I want everyone to adhere to MY standards.
....
The anger of God is being revealed from heaven against all the
Godlessness and wickedness of men who suppress the truth by their
wickedness, since what may be known about God is plain to them,
because God has made it plain to them. For since the creation of the
world God's invisible qualities, His eternal power and divine nature,
have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so
that men are without excuse.
Naturalistic Fallacy.
....
God's existence is clearly seen in what He has made. The intricate
brilliance of the created order reveals the mind of an infinitely
intelligent Designer just as surely as a great work of architecture or
a complex piece of technology reveals the mind of its designer.
Naturalistic Fallacy.
....
All
human reasoning is circular, ...
Got a non-circular argument to show this to be true?
... but when we leave God out of the circle
we are left like a dog chasing its tail without any hope of catching
it!
ROTFL!! Sure, you can't produce a circular argument for your deity
unless you include your deity in the argument. That still leaves the
question of why your deity should be assumed.
Without beginning with the philosophical presupposition that a God
who has spoken to mankind exists, we are doomed to reason in circles
with no way of knowing how to discern truth.
And if you begin with "... the philosophical presupposition that a God
who has spoken to mankind exists ...", then you are also reasoning in
circles.
As for positive proof, there is the communication of God to mankind.
Moses received the Law at Sinai. This was attested by great miracles
witnessed by millions. The Hebrew prophets foretold the rise and fall
of nations and spoke of the coming of a Messiah. Jesus fulfilled the
prophecies of the Jewish Bible.3 His resurrection is historically
documented, having been witnessed by the early Messianic Jewish
believers who recorded their testimonies and were willing to die for
what they knew to be true.4
You obviously have no idea what the word "proof" implies.
Many have asked: Does life have meaning? Why do I exist? There is
abundant meaning to life when we know the Living God. Frankly, atheism
is boring, but knowing, enjoying, and serving God gives life purpose
and excitement. On what basis does human life have value? Each of us
was created in God's image and therefore each individual is of great
value.
ROTFL!!
Argument from Vanity.
....
Good news!
You're almost finished with this nonsense!
....
If you persist in your atheism, one day you will stand before God and
you will have no doubt in your mind concerning His existence. His
awesome reality will be undeniable to you, even though you won't want
to believe it!
Couldn't resist the obligatory threat, I see.
....
Regards,
Josef
Many men would have arrived at wisdom had they not believed themselves
to have arrived there already.
-- Seneca the Younger
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| User: "Lars Eighner" |
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| Title: Re: The Absurdity of Atheism |
13 Dec 2004 03:34:30 AM |
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In our last episode,
<3d02dea6.0412122142.29010f95@posting.google.com>, the lovely
and talented Words of Truth broadcast on alt.atheism:
Atheism tends to exalt reason, but it is actually irrational. One
cannot disprove God exists.
It depends upon the god claim. Yes, it is difficult or
impossible to disprove the existence of the Deist god. But it
is a simple matter to disprove gods like those of christians,
jews, and muslims, because those gods are claimed to have
attributes which cannot all be true.
To dogmatically assert something
unprovable is hardly rational! You might reply: But I can t disprove a
giant purple frog on Mars controls the universe, either. Granted, one
can never disprove any given thing exists, but the existence of God is
not only logically possible, it is philosophically essential. (We'll
get to that later.)
You'll get to that never, of course.
The atheistic position, on the other hand, is
logically impossible. Why do I say that? In order to prove the
assertion No God exists, one would need to comprehensively know all of
reality.
That's right, it is impossible to disprove the existence of all
gods according to all possible definitions. However, it is not
necessary to search the universe to determine whether a square
circle exists. We know a square circle does not exist because
the properties of squares and cirles imply that nothing can be
both at once. Likewise, we do not have to search the universe
to tell whether the christian/jew/muslim god exists. We know he
cannot exist because the properties ascribed to him are
contradictory.
Comprehensive knowledge of reality is called omniscience. One
would need to be omniscient in order to prove there is no God, but if
one were omniscient one would, by definition, already be God! So,
logically, the only one capable of disproving the existence of God
would be God himself! Atheism is inherently self-contradictory.
Of course it isn't. Atheists do not undertake to prove that no
god exists. You could worship a rock and claim it is a god, and
clearly the rock would exist. So long as you didn't make any
claims about your rock god's qualities and powers, no one could
argue that god - as a rock - did not exist. However, when you
begin to claim that everyone must act in accord with your rock's
wishes, you will have to expect certain questions to be raised.
If your claims for your rock become wild enough, they will
become self-contradictory, and then we can prove that your rock
is not a god according to your claims.
The evidence for the existence of God is there for all to see,
only we refuse to see it. King David wrote: The fool says in
his heart there is no God.1 In other words, Atheism is
irrational. Apart from God there is no basis for truth or
ethics. For the sake of brevity, let's simply consider ethics.
Of course you produced no evidence at all.
NO PHILOSOPHICAL BASIS FOR ETHICS
Beyond dispute there are moral atheists. I ve known atheists who are
more ethical than some people claiming to believe in a god. This is
not the issue. The question is, why be ethical? Can an adequate basis
for morality be found given atheistic premises? Think about it. Unless
God exists, there is no eternal and transcendent standard for right
and wrong.
It doesn't follow. How do you know you are worshipping the good
god and not the bad god (aka Satan)? Clearly you have to have
standards of right and wrong that come before god. Otherwise,
you could never tell which thing that you think is a deity is
good and which is bad.
If God did not give the Ten Commandments to Moses at Sinai,
thereby establishing a moral standard above human creation, we are
merely left with humanly devised scruples.
About half of the 10 commandments are purely of the "support
your local deity" sort. The parts that have anything to do with
relationships between human beings were parts of human laws long
before your god was invented.
If humanity is left to create its own ethical standards, we
are left with only three options to base ethics upon: 1)
collective tradition, 2) human survival, or 3) personal
preference.
You left out the possibility that human ethics are based in
human biology.
SUPPRESSING THE TRUTH
A wise rabbi, the Apostle Paul, wrote:
The anger of God is being revealed from heaven against all the
Godlessness and wickedness of men who suppress the truth by their
wickedness, since what may be known about God is plain to them,
because God has made it plain to them. For since the creation of the
world God's invisible qualities, His eternal power and divine nature,
have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so
that men are without excuse. For although they knew God, they neither
glorified Him as God nor gave thanks to Him, but their thinking became
futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. Although they claimed
to be wise they became fools2...
Blah, blah, blah. You are begging the question.
God's existence is clearly seen in what He has made. The intricate
brilliance of the created order reveals the mind of an infinitely
intelligent Designer just as surely as a great work of architecture or
a complex piece of technology reveals the mind of its designer.
Then it follows that god must have had an even more intelligent
designer and that designer must have a more intelligent designer
yet, and it's turtle all the way down.
Furthermore, our own consciences and sense of justice, though
corrupted by our rebellion, still tell us there is right and wrong and
a God who has a perfect moral standard.
No. It tells us only that our notion of justice and of right
and wrong comes before and is superior to beliefs in the various
gods.
The truth is, if you are an
atheist, it is not because it makes sense, it is because you don't
want to face up to the fact that there is a God out there to whom you
are accountable. You don't like God and are trying to hide from Him.
You need not feel this way. God has provided a way back for you.
Go ***** yourself, liar.
--
Rev. Lars Eighner, ULC, Atheist #1965 http://www.io.com/~eighner
"Gods are fragile things; they may be killed by
a whiff of science or a dose of common sense."
--Chapman Cohen
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| User: "Solomon \You Dirty Mother\ Kozanski" |
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| Title: Re: The Absurdity of Atheism |
13 Dec 2004 05:31:59 AM |
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"Lars Eighner" <eighner@io.com> wrote in message
news:slrncrqoac.fj2.eighner@goodwill.io.com...
In our last episode,
<3d02dea6.0412122142.29010f95@posting.google.com>, the lovely
and talented Words of Truth broadcast on alt.atheism:
<omitted>
Beyond dispute there are moral atheists. I ve known atheists who are
more ethical than some people claiming to believe in a god. This is
not the issue. The question is, why be ethical? Can an adequate basis
for morality be found given atheistic premises? Think about it. Unless
God exists, there is no eternal and transcendent standard for right
and wrong.
It doesn't follow. How do you know you are worshipping the good
god and not the bad god (aka Satan)? Clearly you have to have
standards of right and wrong that come before god. Otherwise,
you could never tell which thing that you think is a deity is
good and which is bad.
and if you read the official platform of the Church of Satan, you'd note
that their "belief system" is far less violent, hateful and judgmental than
that of the Yahwehists.
personally, if i absolutely had to choose between the two of them, i'd be
far more likely to worship satan, but then, satan doesn't demand worship,
now does he?
oh sure, we've all heard the stories about satan eating babies and cutting
chicken heads off and all that nonsense, but as al pacino once said,
"consider the source!"
If God did not give the Ten Commandments to Moses at Sinai,
thereby establishing a moral standard above human creation, we are
merely left with humanly devised scruples.
About half of the 10 commandments are purely of the "support
your local deity" sort. The parts that have anything to do with
relationships between human beings were parts of human laws long
before your god was invented.
<snipped>
carlin does a nice routine where he analyzes the sensibility (or lack
thereof) of the "ten commandments"
--
Brought to you, courtesy of Kozanski's Morgue & Grill, LLC
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| User: "Al Klein" |
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| Title: Re: The Absurdity of Atheism |
13 Dec 2004 06:10:25 PM |
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On 12 Dec 2004 21:42:53 -0800, (Words of
Truth) said in alt.atheism:
Think about it. Unless
God exists, there is no eternal and transcendent standard for right
and wrong.
Since "right" and "wrong" are merely opinions, there *is no* "eternal
and transcendent standard" for them. (Is eating meat right or wrong?
Kind of depends on whether you're a deer or a wolf.)
---
CellPhonesEtc at optonline dot net
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| User: "raven1" |
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| Title: Re: The Absurdity of Atheism |
13 Dec 2004 12:40:01 AM |
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On 12 Dec 2004 21:42:53 -0800, (Words of
Truth) wrote:
Atheism tends to exalt reason, but it is actually irrational. One
cannot disprove God exists. To dogmatically assert something
unprovable is hardly rational!
Which makes theism inherently irrational by your own standard. Nice
"own goal" there.
You might reply: But I can't disprove a
giant purple frog on Mars controls the universe, either. Granted, one
can never disprove any given thing exists,
Sometimes, one can, (especially in mathematics), but that's beside the
point.
but the existence of God is
not only logically possible
Which, even if true, is irrelevant to the truth or falsity of its
existence.
, it is philosophically essential.
Which, again, even if true, is irrelevant to the truth or falsity of
its existence.
Seriously, what do you hope to gain by posting this sort of drivel? Do
you really think anyone with a modicum of intelligence is going to be
impressed by a screed containing four egregious mistakes in less than
half a paragraph, or are you a troll trying to portray theists as
invincibly stupid?
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: The Absurdity of Atheism |
13 Dec 2004 07:24:04 AM |
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raven1 wrote:
On 12 Dec 2004 21:42:53 -0800, (Words of
Truth) wrote:
Atheism tends to exalt reason, but it is actually irrational. One
cannot disprove God exists. To dogmatically assert something
unprovable is hardly rational!
Which makes theism inherently irrational by your own standard. Nice
"own goal" there.
Actually, atheism is irrational because it asserts a position without
seeing all the evidence.
Agnosticism is at least rational in that sense.
=====
RC
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| User: "Enkidu" |
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| Title: Re: The Absurdity of Atheism |
13 Dec 2004 08:38:14 AM |
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wrote in news:1102944244.474365.267260
@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com:
raven1 wrote:
On 12 Dec 2004 21:42:53 -0800, (Words of
Truth) wrote:
Atheism tends to exalt reason, but it is actually irrational. One
cannot disprove God exists. To dogmatically assert something
unprovable is hardly rational!
Which makes theism inherently irrational by your own standard. Nice
"own goal" there.
Actually, atheism is irrational because it asserts a position without
seeing all the evidence.
All what evidence? You have some we haven't seen?
--
Enkidu
"Yee-Ha" is not a foreign policy.
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| User: "Larry Heath" |
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| Title: Re: The Absurdity of Atheism |
13 Dec 2004 01:00:41 PM |
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"Enkidu" <enkidu@leaddogs.org> wrote in message
news:Xns95BE438BFDE82enkiduleaddogsorg@68.6.19.6...
rcman777@excite.com wrote in news:1102944244.474365.267260
@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com:
raven1 wrote:
On 12 Dec 2004 21:42:53 -0800, (Words of
Truth) wrote:
Atheism tends to exalt reason, but it is actually irrational. One
cannot disprove God exists. To dogmatically assert something
unprovable is hardly rational!
Which makes theism inherently irrational by your own standard. Nice
"own goal" there.
Actually, atheism is irrational because it asserts a position without
seeing all the evidence.
All what evidence? You have some we haven't seen?
--
Enkidu
"Yee-Ha" is not a foreign policy.
But unfortunately "Bring it on!" is.
Larry
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| User: "jwk" |
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| Title: Re: The Absurdity of Atheism |
13 Dec 2004 09:34:28 AM |
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Enkidu wrote:
rcman777@excite.com wrote in news:1102944244.474365.267260
@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com:
raven1 wrote:
On 12 Dec 2004 21:42:53 -0800, (Words
of
Truth) wrote:
Atheism tends to exalt reason, but it is actually irrational. One
cannot disprove God exists. To dogmatically assert something
unprovable is hardly rational!
Which makes theism inherently irrational by your own standard.
Nice
"own goal" there.
Actually, atheism is irrational because it asserts a position
without
seeing all the evidence.
All what evidence? You have some we haven't seen?
Wait a minute; he'll scrape some off the bottom of his shoe.
jwk
BAAWA
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| User: "Don Kresch" |
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| Title: Re: The Absurdity of Atheism |
13 Dec 2004 04:46:53 PM |
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In alt.atheism on 13 Dec 2004 05:24:04 -0800, let
us all know that:
raven1 wrote:
On 12 Dec 2004 21:42:53 -0800, (Words of
Truth) wrote:
Atheism tends to exalt reason, but it is actually irrat | | | |
