Denis Loubet wrote:

"AcesLucky" <AcesLucky@netscape.net> wrote in message
news:dbxJe.33490$bp.868@fed1read03...

I don't believe in atheists wrote:

"AcesLucky" <AcesLucky@netscape.net> wrote in message
news:o2xJe.33489$bp.15166@fed1read03...

Denis Loubet wrote:

"Atheist Plunder" <Athiests@Fool.com> wrote in message
news:lQeJe.95$vy3.5668@news.uswest.net...

Atheism tends to exalt reason, but it is actually irrational. One
cannot disprove God exists. To dogmatically assert something
unprovable is hardly rational!

I can prove a god doesn't exist via simple experiment.

May I watch?

Of course!

Me too!!! Me Too!!!!

There's room for everyone.

I wonder how long we're going to have to sit here.

Sorry to keep you waiting.

I have here a bottle of Drano which we will call exibit A. What I need
the theists to provide is a follower of a truthful god that says that its
followers can drink any poison without ill effect, and we will call him
or her exhibit B. Once this is provided to me, the experiment can begin,
and the results should be conclusive.

If the follower suffers ill effect upon drinking the Drano, then the
specific truthful god that says the follower will not come to harm does
not exist.

Mind you, another god that says it's followers are immune to poison, but
lies, is still possible, as are all the god concepts that don't include
an honesty or immunity to poison proviso.

Well, once exhibit B arrives, we can begin.

You took a back way, but well done! I didn't really "get" the task you
chose until Ben Goren brought it to focus with the specific scripture it
pertains to.

I'm going to see if I can find any Christians around here willing to stand
up for Jesus' word about the poison.

(It doesn't disprove God,

I know, but it DOES disprove the bible as God's word [assuming God's word
is always truthful], and it uses Jesus' word according to the bible, to do
it. A double whammy.) Apparently the bible is not done being edited!

Denis Loubet wrote:

I have here a bottle of Drano which we will call exibit A. What
I need the theists to provide is a follower of a truthful god
that says that its followers can drink any poison without ill
effect, and we will call him or her exhibit B. Once this is
provided to me, the experiment can begin, and the results should
be conclusive.

If the follower suffers ill effect upon drinking the Drano, then
the specific truthful god that says the follower will not come
to harm does not exist.

Mind you, another god that says it's followers are immune to
poison, but lies, is still possible, as are all the god concepts
that don't include an honesty or immunity to poison proviso.

Well, once exhibit B arrives, we can begin.

Seeing how so many people, Christians included, are woefully
unfamilliar with what the Bible actually says, I think it only
fair to give them a bit more information.

As Denis states, the experiment requires that the theists' faith
have two specific properties. Let us examine those properties and
determine whether or not a Christian should be expected to have
said properties.

First, it is necessary that the god be truthful. The Bible makes a
number of assertions as to its own validity, including:

2 Timothy 3:14 But continue thou in the things which thou hast
learned and hast been assured of, knowing of whom thou hast
learned them;

15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures,
which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith
which is in Christ Jesus.

16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is
profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for
instruction in righteousness:

17 That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto
all good works.

Furthermore, Jesus clearly states in his famous Sermon on the
Mount:

Matthew 5:14 Ye are the light of the world. A city that is set
on an hill cannot be hid.

15 Neither do men light a candle, and put it under a bushel, but
on a candlestick; and it giveth light unto all that are in the
house.

16 Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your
good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven.

17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the
prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.

18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one
jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all
be fulfilled.

19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least
commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the
least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach
them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

20 For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall
exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall
in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.

Considering these two passages, one might reasonably conclude
that, according to the Christian Bible and thus to Christianity,
the Bible is the law; without error; either the direct word of or
inspired by God; that it should be actively used to sculpt one's
own life; and that one should actively do what the Bible commands
in order to demonstrate the righteousness of its words.

Now, let us consider the last words Jesus spoke to his disciples,
after the resurrection, and just before ascending to Heaven:

Mark 16:14 Afterward he appeared unto the eleven as they sat at
meat, and upbraided them with their unbelief and hardness of
heart, because they believed not them which had seen him after
he was risen.

15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach
the gospel to every creature.

16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that
believeth not shall be damned.

17 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name
shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;

18 They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly
thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick,
and they shall recover.

19 So then after the Lord had spoken unto them, he was received
up into heaven, and sat on the right hand of God.

20 And they went forth, and preached every where, the
Lord working with them, and confirming the word with signs
following. Amen.

So here we see /exactly/ what it is that is necessary for true
disciples to do in order to ``preach the gospel to every
creature.'' And, sure enough, it includes drinking poison.

So, I'm sure y'all can see the reasonableness of Denis's
experiment. He's just asking Christians to do that which Jesus
says they should do when confronted with people like him and me.

And, I gotta tell you. If you can drink that Drano, if you can
laugh off a bite from a rattler, and if you can heal any illness
by doing nothing but lay your hands on the sick, I really, truly,
honestly will give most serious consideration to Christianity
after all.

But if you can't do any of that, then it's clear that you're not a
believer, baptized or not, and you therefore have no business
preaching.

Cheers,

b&