| Topic: |
Religions > Atheism |
| User: |
"Sound of Trumpet" |
| Date: |
29 Aug 2006 05:27:17 PM |
| Object: |
The Absurdity Of Atheism |
http://www.chaim.org/atheist.htm
THE ABSURDITY OF ATHEISM
So you're an atheist. Mazel Tov, at least you aren't wishy washy. As a
former atheist myself, I won't condemn you. How could I? Some atheists
think they've taken a heroic stand, but could it be that they really
don't want to face up to the possibility that God is indeed there? I
hope you'll be intellectually honest enough to consider what I have to
say and see if it makes sense.
No one who has prejudged an issue can be convinced of anything contrary
to what he wants to believe. There are still those who insist the earth
is flat and no one can convince them otherwise, no matter what the
evidence. There are always folks, no matter if religious or atheistic,
who stubbornly believe what they prefer, no matter if reason and fact
show otherwise. Someone like this has the unspoken philosophy: Don't
confuse me with the facts. My mind is already made up. Ask yourself: Am
I open-minded or narrow minded? Am I willing to change my mind if I can
be shown atheism doesn't make sense?
You might say, If God is there, let him prove it to me. I don't want to
take an irrational leap of faith. Fine. In Isaiah 2:18 God says: come
let us reason together. He wants us to reason and He certainly wants us
to be be rational, but He will not submit himself to human scrutiny; to
do so he would need to stop being God! He will not bow to our perverse
judgements. Ask yourself, Would I ever be willing to believe God is
there, however strong the evidence? You see, your problem may not be in
your head as much as in your heart. Perhaps you've already taken a leap
of faith. To assert God cannot exist, despite the impossibility of
proving that statement, is the ultimate irrational leap!
THE IRRATIONALITY OF ATHEISM
Atheism tends to exalt reason, but it is actually irrational. One
cannot disprove God exists. To dogmatically assert something unprovable
is hardly rational! You might reply: But I can t disprove a giant
purple frog on Mars controls the universe, either. Granted, one can
never disprove any given thing exists, but the existence of God is not
only logically possible, it is philosophically essential. (We'll get to
that later.) The atheistic position, on the other hand, is logically
impossible. Why do I say that? In order to prove the assertion No God
exists, one would need to comprehensively know all of reality.
Comprehensive knowledge of reality is called omniscience. One would
need to be omniscient in order to prove there is no God, but if one
were omniscient one would, by definition, already be God! So,
logically, the only one capable of disproving the existence of God
would be God himself! Atheism is inherently self-contradictory. The
evidence for the existence of God is there for all to see, only we
refuse to see it. King David wrote: The fool says in his heart there is
no God.1 In other words, Atheism is irrational. Apart from God there is
no basis for truth or ethics. For the sake of brevity, let's simply
consider ethics.
NO PHILOSOPHICAL BASIS FOR ETHICS
Beyond dispute there are moral atheists. I ve known atheists who are
more ethical than some people claiming to believe in a god. This is not
the issue. The question is, why be ethical? Can an adequate basis for
morality be found given atheistic premises? Think about it. Unless God
exists, there is no eternal and transcendent standard for right and
wrong. If God did not give the Ten Commandments to Moses at Sinai,
thereby establishing a moral standard above human creation, we are
merely left with humanly devised scruples. If humanity is left to
create its own ethical standards, we are left with only three options
to base ethics upon: 1) collective tradition, 2) human survival, or 3)
personal preference.
IS COLLECTIVE TRADITION AN ETHICAL BASE?
Those who argue that morality is properly based upon what society as a
whole deems moral have a big problem. What one society says is moral
another says is immoral. Nazi Germany held that it was morally good and
beneficial to exterminate the Jewish people. The Allies saw the Nazis
as evil and fought against them. Who was right? If one believes God
gave the law You shall not murder, the answer is obvious. Any society
that advocates murder is evil. How can an atheist respond? Most would
admit the Nazis were evil, but according to what standard? Were the
Nazis evil just because the Allies said they were evil or were they in
fact evil? One can try to argue that it isn't just what a few societies
say that matters, but what the majority of human societies agree upon.
This does provide a better basis, since God has given us a conscience,
but it has been corrupted by rebellion. At one time most human
societies placed less value on female offspring than on males. In many
societies female infants were left to die. In some places this exists
today. This is morally wrong, no matter if the whole of human society
were to say otherwise! Basing morality on human society does not
provide an adequate answer.
WHAT ABOUT HUMAN SURVIVAL
What of an evolutionary model for morality? Why not posit that whatever
benefits human survival is moral? To some this may be appealing, but
first ask some questions. Why, based upon atheistic assumptions, should
we logically value human survival? What difference does it all make?
Why is life valuable? Isn't belief in human survival itself a moral
assumption, a value judgement that has no basis in an atheistic world
view? Furthermore, consider what an ethic based solely on survival
could lead to: the elimination of those perceived to have less survival
value. The Nazi movement, based upon an evolutionary eugenic ideal of
developing a super race, destroyed those deemed by them inferior or
unsuitable. Reproduction was to be limited to those deemed most fit.
Mankind, when left to its own devices to develop its moral basis,
commits systemized murder and oppression. Consider the atrocities of
Stalin, Pol Pot, Hitler, and the horrible situations we have witnessed
in Rwanda and Bosnia. Both atheists and religious people so easily
justify murder. Just because we have also seen horrors committed by
those claiming to believe in some sort of god doesn't disprove my
point. I'm not advocating just any old god! It is still true that when
any society abandons the God-given law, You shall not murder, horror
results.
FEELINGS, NOTHING MORE THAN FEELINGS...
What of basing morality on one's personal preferences? What of just
saying you can know what is wrong by following your heart? What a dippy
idea this is! Jeffrey Dahmer's heart led him to murder and cannibalize
his fellow humans! Basing morality on feelings is the ultimate in
irrationality. This puts moral judgement on the level of personal
taste. Dahmer might have thought you suitable to his taste!
I've met many atheists who are judgmental of religious people who have
committed great atrocities, but upon what basis? Does this make any
sense? Atheistic assumptions irresistibly lead to the conclusion that
morality is nothing more than a matter of personal or societal
preference. Based upon an atheistic philosophy, the very appropriate
disdain for the despicable murderers of humanity makes about as much
sense as a dog lover's disdain of those who prefer cats! How silly.
Unless there is a moral standard beyond individual or societal
preference, there is no logical basis for condemning atrocity. I
challenge any atheist to give me a basis for ethics beyond mere
personal preference, social custom, or survival. They simply cannot do
it. Post-modern philosophers have come to the conclusion that there is
no hope of finding morality or meaning based on materialistic
presuppositions. They are quite right. It is a good thing that many
atheists are too decent and too inconsistent to live out the
irresistible moral conclusions of their philosophy!
Another thought: we even transgress the scruples we ourselves invent.
Is this logical? No, but this is consistent with the Biblical view of
mankind, which says we are by our nature law-breakers and rebels who
don't want to believe in the true God. Thank God there is an amnesty
program for rebels and atheists! (More on that later.)
SUPPRESSING THE TRUTH
A wise rabbi, the Apostle Paul, wrote:
The anger of God is being revealed from heaven against all the
Godlessness and wickedness of men who suppress the truth by their
wickedness, since what may be known about God is plain to them, because
God has made it plain to them. For since the creation of the world
God's invisible qualities, His eternal power and divine nature, have
been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that
men are without excuse. For although they knew God, they neither
glorified Him as God nor gave thanks to Him, but their thinking became
futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. Although they claimed to
be wise they became fools2...
God's existence is clearly seen in what He has made. The intricate
brilliance of the created order reveals the mind of an infinitely
intelligent Designer just as surely as a great work of architecture or
a complex piece of technology reveals the mind of its designer.
Furthermore, our own consciences and sense of justice, though corrupted
by our rebellion, still tell us there is right and wrong and a God who
has a perfect moral standard. The truth is, if you are an atheist, it
is not because it makes sense, it is because you don't want to face up
to the fact that there is a God out there to whom you are accountable.
You don't like God and are trying to hide from Him. You need not feel
this way. God has provided a way back for you.
How do we know God exists? Unless we begin with the assumption that he
does, we can't know anything else exists! Unless we presuppose that God
created us with the ability to know things through sensory experience
and reason, we have no philosophical basis for trusting either.
Philosophically speaking, unless we know a wise God gave us our senses,
how can we know everything isn't an illusion? As for reason, we can't
prove the validity of reason without using reason! We must assume what
we are trying to prove in order to prove it. All human reasoning is
circular, but when we leave God out of the circle we are left like a
dog chasing its tail without any hope of catching it! Without beginning
with the philosophical presupposition that a God who has spoken to
mankind exists, we are doomed to reason in circles with no way of
knowing how to discern truth.
As for positive proof, there is the communication of God to mankind.
Moses received the Law at Sinai. This was attested by great miracles
witnessed by millions. The Hebrew prophets foretold the rise and fall
of nations and spoke of the coming of a Messiah. Jesus fulfilled the
prophecies of the Jewish Bible.3 His resurrection is historically
documented, having been witnessed by the early Messianic Jewish
believers who recorded their testimonies and were willing to die for
what they knew to be true.4
Many have asked: Does life have meaning? Why do I exist? There is
abundant meaning to life when we know the Living God. Frankly, atheism
is boring, but knowing, enjoying, and serving God gives life purpose
and excitement. On what basis does human life have value? Each of us
was created in God's image and therefore each individual is of great
value.
AMNESTY FOR ATHEISTS
Good news! There is hope for atheists! After the Vietnam War there were
many expatriate Americans living in Canada and other places. An amnesty
program was established to welcome these people home. The message was:
Come back home. All is forgiven. You will be received back with open
arms. God also has an amnesty program. The true God is both just and
loving. His justice demands that our rebellion be punished. His love
provided a means to fulfill this justice and restore us to a right
relationship with him. This is where the Messiah comes in. Out of love
for us, God took on a human nature and visited earth to take upon
himself the punishment we deserve for our lawbreaking. Jesus died as a
substitute for rebels to pay the penalty of those who deserve it,
whether religious or atheistic. There is a judgement day coming, and
God has proven this to us by raising Jesus from the dead. You have this
choice: let the Messiah take your punishment or take it yourself. The
choice seems obvious to me! Why turn down a free gift? What a great
amnesty program! God wants each of us to admit we are wrong, receive
the payment He has provided, and come in with our hands up letting Him
rule over our lives. He promises to renew us, to enable us to live a
new life in His service, and to let us experience His presence forever.
God calls atheists to come back home, spiritually speaking. All can be
forgiven, even atheism. God calls atheists to turn from their rebellion
and to trust the Living God through his Messiah, Jesus.
STILL NOT CONVINCED?
If you persist in your atheism, one day you will stand before God and
you will have no doubt in your mind concerning His existence. His
awesome reality will be undeniable to you, even though you won't want
to believe it! Are you still open-minded enough for more information?
Maybe you'd like to get together with someone for a friendly and
relaxed talk about these things. Maybe you are intrigued, but wish some
more in-depth reading. We are happy to help.
Notes:
1 Ps. 14:1
2 Rom. 1:18-22
3 Isaiah 53, Micah 5:1, Jeremiah 31:31-34
4 For more on this ask for the pamphlet called The Easter Bunny Is Not
Jewish.
.
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| User: "NC" |
|
| Title: Re: The Absurdity Of Atheism |
29 Aug 2006 10:09:15 PM |
|
|
"Sound of Trumpet" <soundoftrumpet@bluebottle.com> copy-pasted:
http://www.chaim.org/atheist.htm
THE ABSURDITY OF ATHEISM
Copyright violation noted.
So you're an atheist. Mazel Tov, at least you aren't wishy washy.
??
As a former atheist myself, I won't condemn you.
Your bible says your god would condemn you for lying. Lucky for you your
bible is an ancient work of fiction.
Some atheists
think they've taken a heroic stand, but could it be that they really
don't want to face up to the possibility that God is indeed there?
Maybe we just don't want to face up to the possibility that Ra is indeed
there. Maybe we think we're taking a heroic stand against mighty Odin.
Or maybe we just don't believe mythical stories are anything but
mythical stories. What? You automatically assume we're all about YOUR
stories because YOUR stories are so OBVIOUSLY more realistic and
rational than those "other ones"?
No one who has prejudged an issue can be convinced of anything
contrary to what he wants to believe.
Projection.
There are still those who insist the earth
is flat
Perhaps you should consult your scriptures on that one. Surely THEY
wouldn't describe the earth that way, being absolute Truth and all. Must
be metaphorical...yeah, that's the ticket.
Someone like this has the unspoken philosophy: Don't
confuse me with the facts. My mind is already made up. Ask yourself:
Am I open-minded or narrow minded? Am I willing to change my mind if I
can be shown atheism doesn't make sense?
Ready and waiting. I would LOVE to live forever. No lie. But that's a
long way from believing anyone will. Go on...convince me I can.
You might say, If God is there, let him prove it to me. I don't want
to take an irrational leap of faith. Fine. In Isaiah 2:18 God says:
come let us reason together. He wants us to reason and He certainly
wants us to be be rational, but He will not submit himself to human
scrutiny; to do so he would need to stop being God! He will not bow to
our perverse judgements. Ask yourself, Would I ever be willing to
believe God is there, however strong the evidence?
I just said I would. No lie. And your quote is not evidence rather it is
quite clearly your excuse for not having any evidence!
You see, your problem may not be in
your head as much as in your heart.
How convenient. So it's not really that you haven't provided any reason
to believe it's just that I don't want to? Ummm...no...you really
haven't provided any reason OTHER than wanting to...which I already said
I do. So, I WANT to believe! Now where is this EVIDENCE I was supposed
to get??
Perhaps you've already taken a leap
of faith. To assert God cannot exist, despite the impossibility of
proving that statement, is the ultimate irrational leap!
I just said want to believe. Now tell me why I should! Where's the
evidence you promised? You completely jumped track and gave up? Now
you're just going to rant on atheism...
THE IRRATIONALITY OF ATHEISM
(SNIP: the standard shifting of burden of proof to the negative, but
only for his specific god story of course - LAME!)
NO PHILOSOPHICAL BASIS FOR ETHICS
The question is, why be ethical?
What if there is absolutely no reason at all to be ethical? Do you
really think that it is IMPOSSIBLE that we exist in a universe where
there is no outside enforcement of ethics? Hey, you were just arguing
how IRRATIONAL it is to claim something is impossible!!
Unless there is a moral standard beyond individual or societal
preference, there is no logical basis for condemning atrocity.
(SNIP: rest of this section does nothing but attempt to conflate the way
things are with the way things "ought to be", and argues that it is
irrational for puny humans to enforce local or global ethical standards
if there isn't an outside policeman named "God" - LAME!)
Oh wait...I gotta respond to this part...
It is a good thing that many
atheists are too decent and too inconsistent to live out the
irresistible moral conclusions of their philosophy!
Irresistible? Projection again. It truly scares me how many of your kind
feel this way. It IS a good thing that you believe in your police-god
lest you act upon your disgusting urges that you feel would be "okay"
without him there to punish you. Just stay away from me, you sick *****.
As for reason, we can't
prove the validity of reason without using reason! We must assume what
we are trying to prove in order to prove it. All human reasoning is
circular, but when we leave God out of the circle we are left like a
dog chasing its tail without any hope of catching it! Without
beginning with the philosophical presupposition that a God who has
spoken to mankind exists, we are doomed to reason in circles with no
way of knowing how to discern truth.
Ooookay. Wow. You seem to be setting up an excuse for using circular
reasoning yourself. Here it comes...
As for positive proof, there is the communication of God to mankind.
Moses received the Law at Sinai. This was attested by great miracles
witnessed by millions. The Hebrew prophets foretold the rise and fall
of nations and spoke of the coming of a Messiah. Jesus fulfilled the
prophecies of the Jewish Bible.3 His resurrection is historically
documented, having been witnessed by the early Messianic Jewish
believers who recorded their testimonies and were willing to die for
what they knew to be true.4
Yay! There you have it, folks! The bible proves the bible! How did I
ever miss that? Hallejulah I'm converted! Boy I sure hope no other
religion's scriptures prove THEY are true! Just to be safe I won't read
any other scriptures. Whew!
Many have asked: Does life have meaning? Why do I exist?
Many don't need meaningless pablum to be satisfied with life.
There is abundant meaning to life when we know the Living God.
You don't. You know a story your parents told you repeatedly while you
were growing up. They surrounded you with peers and authority figures to
reinforce it when they weren't around. A comfort zone of security in
which you are continuously told what atheism is and why you shouldn't be
an atheist, over and over again. Why do they do that when suposedly you
are already a believer? Who are they trying to convince?
Frankly, atheism is boring,
Well there you go, folks. Reality is boring. Hey, let's spice it up! A
little magic here, a dash of eternal torment there...now dat's ah spicy
meatball'ah!
but knowing, enjoying, and serving God gives life purpose
and excitement. On what basis does human life have value? Each of us
was created in God's image and therefore each individual is of great
value.
Again I get this feeling that it's not us you're trying to convince. You
must have heard the above pablum many many times, perhaps every Sunday.
Who was in the audience? A lot of atheists in church?
AMNESTY FOR ATHEISTS
Good news! There is hope for atheists!
Hooray!
The true God is both just and
loving. His justice demands that our rebellion be punished. His love
provided a means to fulfill this justice and restore us to a right
relationship with him. This is where the Messiah comes in. Out of love
for us, God took on a human nature and visited earth to take upon
himself the punishment we deserve for our lawbreaking. Jesus died as a
substitute for rebels to pay the penalty of those who deserve it,
whether religious or atheistic.
But you have to believe this event for it to work, right? What an odd
thing for a god to do. I mean, he knows exactly what would make me
believe, right? Why save only the irrational ones who believe first with
no reason? If he exists then he KNOWS that I CAN be convinced, despite
your presupposed excuse that anyone not yet convinced must be
closed-minded. So he didn't really "pay the penalty" for those who never
get convinced during life. Those guys still get screwed, right?
There is a judgement day coming,
Any day now...
God has proven this to us by raising Jesus from the dead. You have
this choice: let the Messiah take your punishment or take it yourself.
The choice seems obvious to me!
What strange usage of the word 'choice'.
Why turn down a free gift?
What strange usage of the word 'free'.
What a great
amnesty program! God wants each of us to admit we are wrong, receive
the payment He has provided, and come in with our hands up letting Him
rule over our lives. He promises to renew us, to enable us to live a
new life in His service, and to let us experience His presence
forever.
Excellent. I'll take it! And he can do ALL of that after I'm dead,
right? What?! What's so special about this blink-of-an-eye life with
only the "wishy washy" word of illogical humans to convince me, when I
could be EASILY convinced by finding myself before God when I die? Why
can't everyone get the same deal dead babies presumably get? Perhaps
because dead people can't spread your mythical stories like a virus?
If you persist in your atheism, one day you will stand before God and
you will have no doubt in your mind concerning His existence.
Wow, really? Good thing I'm an atheist then! I will get the proof that
you guys don't have!
His awesome reality will be undeniable to you, even though you won't
want to believe it! Are you still open-minded enough for more
information?
More in addition to what information? You havent yet provided any, only
a long list of EXCUSES for not providing the promised information.
"Here's why you won't believe...here's why I can't convince you...blah
blah blah...you'll be sorry!"
Maybe you'd like to get together with someone for a friendly and
relaxed talk about these things. Maybe you are intrigued, but wish
some more in-depth reading. We are happy to help.
The only intriguing thing is how you can function without a working
brain. You even manage to get other zombies to paste this crap into
newsgroups for you. Mazel Tov!
NC
.
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|
|
| User: "GoDrex" |
|
| Title: Re: The Absurdity Of Atheism |
29 Aug 2006 10:22:52 PM |
|
|
"NC" <nc@noxozoxo.tk> wrote in message
news:Xns982EE2774838S3CRTMSG@65.115.167.1...
"Sound of Trumpet" <soundoftrumpet@bluebottle.com> copy-pasted:
http://www.chaim.org/atheist.htm
THE ABSURDITY OF ATHEISM
Copyright violation noted.
So you're an atheist. Mazel Tov, at least you aren't wishy washy.
??
As a former atheist myself, I won't condemn you.
Your bible says your god would condemn you for lying. Lucky for you your
bible is an ancient work of fiction.
Some atheists
think they've taken a heroic stand, but could it be that they really
don't want to face up to the possibility that God is indeed there?
Maybe we just don't want to face up to the possibility that Ra is indeed
there. Maybe we think we're taking a heroic stand against mighty Odin.
Or maybe we just don't believe mythical stories are anything but
mythical stories. What? You automatically assume we're all about YOUR
stories because YOUR stories are so OBVIOUSLY more realistic and
rational than those "other ones"?
No one who has prejudged an issue can be convinced of anything
contrary to what he wants to believe.
Projection.
There are still those who insist the earth
is flat
Perhaps you should consult your scriptures on that one. Surely THEY
wouldn't describe the earth that way, being absolute Truth and all. Must
be metaphorical...yeah, that's the ticket.
Someone like this has the unspoken philosophy: Don't
confuse me with the facts. My mind is already made up. Ask yourself:
Am I open-minded or narrow minded? Am I willing to change my mind if I
can be shown atheism doesn't make sense?
Ready and waiting. I would LOVE to live forever. No lie. But that's a
long way from believing anyone will. Go on...convince me I can.
You might say, If God is there, let him prove it to me. I don't want
to take an irrational leap of faith. Fine. In Isaiah 2:18 God says:
come let us reason together. He wants us to reason and He certainly
wants us to be be rational, but He will not submit himself to human
scrutiny; to do so he would need to stop being God! He will not bow to
our perverse judgements. Ask yourself, Would I ever be willing to
believe God is there, however strong the evidence?
I just said I would. No lie. And your quote is not evidence rather it is
quite clearly your excuse for not having any evidence!
You see, your problem may not be in
your head as much as in your heart.
How convenient. So it's not really that you haven't provided any reason
to believe it's just that I don't want to? Ummm...no...you really
haven't provided any reason OTHER than wanting to...which I already said
I do. So, I WANT to believe! Now where is this EVIDENCE I was supposed
to get??
Perhaps you've already taken a leap
of faith. To assert God cannot exist, despite the impossibility of
proving that statement, is the ultimate irrational leap!
I just said want to believe. Now tell me why I should! Where's the
evidence you promised? You completely jumped track and gave up? Now
you're just going to rant on atheism...
THE IRRATIONALITY OF ATHEISM
(SNIP: the standard shifting of burden of proof to the negative, but
only for his specific god story of course - LAME!)
NO PHILOSOPHICAL BASIS FOR ETHICS
The question is, why be ethical?
What if there is absolutely no reason at all to be ethical? Do you
really think that it is IMPOSSIBLE that we exist in a universe where
there is no outside enforcement of ethics? Hey, you were just arguing
how IRRATIONAL it is to claim something is impossible!!
Unless there is a moral standard beyond individual or societal
preference, there is no logical basis for condemning atrocity.
(SNIP: rest of this section does nothing but attempt to conflate the way
things are with the way things "ought to be", and argues that it is
irrational for puny humans to enforce local or global ethical standards
if there isn't an outside policeman named "God" - LAME!)
Oh wait...I gotta respond to this part...
It is a good thing that many
atheists are too decent and too inconsistent to live out the
irresistible moral conclusions of their philosophy!
Irresistible? Projection again. It truly scares me how many of your kind
feel this way. It IS a good thing that you believe in your police-god
lest you act upon your disgusting urges that you feel would be "okay"
without him there to punish you. Just stay away from me, you sick *****.
As for reason, we can't
prove the validity of reason without using reason! We must assume what
we are trying to prove in order to prove it. All human reasoning is
circular, but when we leave God out of the circle we are left like a
dog chasing its tail without any hope of catching it! Without
beginning with the philosophical presupposition that a God who has
spoken to mankind exists, we are doomed to reason in circles with no
way of knowing how to discern truth.
Ooookay. Wow. You seem to be setting up an excuse for using circular
reasoning yourself. Here it comes...
As for positive proof, there is the communication of God to mankind.
Moses received the Law at Sinai. This was attested by great miracles
witnessed by millions. The Hebrew prophets foretold the rise and fall
of nations and spoke of the coming of a Messiah. Jesus fulfilled the
prophecies of the Jewish Bible.3 His resurrection is historically
documented, having been witnessed by the early Messianic Jewish
believers who recorded their testimonies and were willing to die for
what they knew to be true.4
Yay! There you have it, folks! The bible proves the bible! How did I
ever miss that? Hallejulah I'm converted! Boy I sure hope no other
religion's scriptures prove THEY are true! Just to be safe I won't read
any other scriptures. Whew!
Many have asked: Does life have meaning? Why do I exist?
Many don't need meaningless pablum to be satisfied with life.
There is abundant meaning to life when we know the Living God.
You don't. You know a story your parents told you repeatedly while you
were growing up. They surrounded you with peers and authority figures to
reinforce it when they weren't around. A comfort zone of security in
which you are continuously told what atheism is and why you shouldn't be
an atheist, over and over again. Why do they do that when suposedly you
are already a believer? Who are they trying to convince?
Frankly, atheism is boring,
Well there you go, folks. Reality is boring. Hey, let's spice it up! A
little magic here, a dash of eternal torment there...now dat's ah spicy
meatball'ah!
but knowing, enjoying, and serving God gives life purpose
and excitement. On what basis does human life have value? Each of us
was created in God's image and therefore each individual is of great
value.
Again I get this feeling that it's not us you're trying to convince. You
must have heard the above pablum many many times, perhaps every Sunday.
Who was in the audience? A lot of atheists in church?
AMNESTY FOR ATHEISTS
Good news! There is hope for atheists!
Hooray!
The true God is both just and
loving. His justice demands that our rebellion be punished. His love
provided a means to fulfill this justice and restore us to a right
relationship with him. This is where the Messiah comes in. Out of love
for us, God took on a human nature and visited earth to take upon
himself the punishment we deserve for our lawbreaking. Jesus died as a
substitute for rebels to pay the penalty of those who deserve it,
whether religious or atheistic.
But you have to believe this event for it to work, right? What an odd
thing for a god to do. I mean, he knows exactly what would make me
believe, right? Why save only the irrational ones who believe first with
no reason? If he exists then he KNOWS that I CAN be convinced, despite
your presupposed excuse that anyone not yet convinced must be
closed-minded. So he didn't really "pay the penalty" for those who never
get convinced during life. Those guys still get screwed, right?
There is a judgement day coming,
Any day now...
God has proven this to us by raising Jesus from the dead. You have
this choice: let the Messiah take your punishment or take it yourself.
The choice seems obvious to me!
What strange usage of the word 'choice'.
Why turn down a free gift?
What strange usage of the word 'free'.
What a great
amnesty program! God wants each of us to admit we are wrong, receive
the payment He has provided, and come in with our hands up letting Him
rule over our lives. He promises to renew us, to enable us to live a
new life in His service, and to let us experience His presence
forever.
Excellent. I'll take it! And he can do ALL of that after I'm dead,
right? What?! What's so special about this blink-of-an-eye life with
only the "wishy washy" word of illogical humans to convince me, when I
could be EASILY convinced by finding myself before God when I die? Why
can't everyone get the same deal dead babies presumably get? Perhaps
because dead people can't spread your mythical stories like a virus?
If you persist in your atheism, one day you will stand before God and
you will have no doubt in your mind concerning His existence.
Wow, really? Good thing I'm an atheist then! I will get the proof that
you guys don't have!
His awesome reality will be undeniable to you, even though you won't
want to believe it! Are you still open-minded enough for more
information?
More in addition to what information? You havent yet provided any, only
a long list of EXCUSES for not providing the promised information.
"Here's why you won't believe...here's why I can't convince you...blah
blah blah...you'll be sorry!"
Maybe you'd like to get together with someone for a friendly and
relaxed talk about these things. Maybe you are intrigued, but wish
some more in-depth reading. We are happy to help.
The only intriguing thing is how you can function without a working
brain. You even manage to get other zombies to paste this crap into
newsgroups for you. Mazel Tov!
NC
best reply yet - thanks for that enjoyable read.
.
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| User: "bob young" |
|
| Title: Re: The Absurdity Of Atheism |
30 Aug 2006 01:16:01 AM |
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NC wrote:
"Sound of Trumpet" <soundoftrumpet@bluebottle.com> copy-pasted:
http://www.chaim.org/atheist.htm
THE ABSURDITY OF ATHEISM
Copyright violation noted.
So you're an atheist. Mazel Tov, at least you aren't wishy washy.
??
As a former atheist myself, I won't condemn you.
Your bible says your god would condemn you for lying. Lucky for you your
bible is an ancient work of fiction.
Yep, a book of 'rules to live by'
written by early frightened humans
in the absence of any law and order
in their time.
Some atheists
think they've taken a heroic stand, but could it be that they really
don't want to face up to the possibility that God is indeed there?
Maybe we just don't want to face up to the possibility that Ra is indeed
there. Maybe we think we're taking a heroic stand against mighty Odin.
Or maybe we just don't believe mythical stories are anything but
mythical stories. What? You automatically assume we're all about YOUR
stories because YOUR stories are so OBVIOUSLY more realistic and
rational than those "other ones"?
No one who has prejudged an issue can be convinced of anything
contrary to what he wants to believe.
Projection.
There are still those who insist the earth
is flat
Perhaps you should consult your scriptures on that one. Surely THEY
wouldn't describe the earth that way, being absolute Truth and all. Must
be metaphorical...yeah, that's the ticket.
Someone like this has the unspoken philosophy: Don't
confuse me with the facts. My mind is already made up. Ask yourself:
Am I open-minded or narrow minded? Am I willing to change my mind if I
can be shown atheism doesn't make sense?
Ready and waiting. I would LOVE to live forever. No lie. But that's a
long way from believing anyone will. Go on...convince me I can.
You might say, If God is there, let him prove it to me. I don't want
to take an irrational leap of faith. Fine. In Isaiah 2:18 God says:
come let us reason together. He wants us to reason and He certainly
wants us to be be rational, but He will not submit himself to human
scrutiny; to do so he would need to stop being God! He will not bow to
our perverse judgements. Ask yourself, Would I ever be willing to
believe God is there, however strong the evidence?
I just said I would. No lie. And your quote is not evidence rather it is
quite clearly your excuse for not having any evidence!
You see, your problem may not be in
your head as much as in your heart.
How convenient. So it's not really that you haven't provided any reason
to believe it's just that I don't want to? Ummm...no...you really
haven't provided any reason OTHER than wanting to...which I already said
I do. So, I WANT to believe! Now where is this EVIDENCE I was supposed
to get??
Perhaps you've already taken a leap
of faith. To assert God cannot exist, despite the impossibility of
proving that statement, is the ultimate irrational leap!
I just said want to believe. Now tell me why I should! Where's the
evidence you promised? You completely jumped track and gave up? Now
you're just going to rant on atheism...
THE IRRATIONALITY OF ATHEISM
(SNIP: the standard shifting of burden of proof to the negative, but
only for his specific god story of course - LAME!)
NO PHILOSOPHICAL BASIS FOR ETHICS
The question is, why be ethical?
What if there is absolutely no reason at all to be ethical? Do you
really think that it is IMPOSSIBLE that we exist in a universe where
there is no outside enforcement of ethics? Hey, you were just arguing
how IRRATIONAL it is to claim something is impossible!!
Unless there is a moral standard beyond individual or societal
preference, there is no logical basis for condemning atrocity.
(SNIP: rest of this section does nothing but attempt to conflate the way
things are with the way things "ought to be", and argues that it is
irrational for puny humans to enforce local or global ethical standards
if there isn't an outside policeman named "God" - LAME!)
Oh wait...I gotta respond to this part...
It is a good thing that many
atheists are too decent and too inconsistent to live out the
irresistible moral conclusions of their philosophy!
Irresistible? Projection again. It truly scares me how many of your kind
feel this way. It IS a good thing that you believe in your police-god
lest you act upon your disgusting urges that you feel would be "okay"
without him there to punish you. Just stay away from me, you sick *****.
As for reason, we can't
prove the validity of reason without using reason! We must assume what
we are trying to prove in order to prove it. All human reasoning is
circular, but when we leave God out of the circle we are left like a
dog chasing its tail without any hope of catching it! Without
beginning with the philosophical presupposition that a God who has
spoken to mankind exists, we are doomed to reason in circles with no
way of knowing how to discern truth.
Ooookay. Wow. You seem to be setting up an excuse for using circular
reasoning yourself. Here it comes...
As for positive proof, there is the communication of God to mankind.
Moses received the Law at Sinai. This was attested by great miracles
witnessed by millions. The Hebrew prophets foretold the rise and fall
of nations and spoke of the coming of a Messiah. Jesus fulfilled the
prophecies of the Jewish Bible.3 His resurrection is historically
documented, having been witnessed by the early Messianic Jewish
believers who recorded their testimonies and were willing to die for
what they knew to be true.4
Yay! There you have it, folks! The bible proves the bible! How did I
ever miss that? Hallejulah I'm converted! Boy I sure hope no other
religion's scriptures prove THEY are true! Just to be safe I won't read
any other scriptures. Whew!
Many have asked: Does life have meaning? Why do I exist?
Many don't need meaningless pablum to be satisfied with life.
There is abundant meaning to life when we know the Living God.
You don't. You know a story your parents told you repeatedly while you
were growing up. They surrounded you with peers and authority figures to
reinforce it when they weren't around. A comfort zone of security in
which you are continuously told what atheism is and why you shouldn't be
an atheist, over and over again. Why do they do that when suposedly you
are already a believer? Who are they trying to convince?
Frankly, atheism is boring,
Well there you go, folks. Reality is boring. Hey, let's spice it up! A
little magic here, a dash of eternal torment there...now dat's ah spicy
meatball'ah!
but knowing, enjoying, and serving God gives life purpose
and excitement. On what basis does human life have value? Each of us
was created in God's image and therefore each individual is of great
value.
Again I get this feeling that it's not us you're trying to convince. You
must have heard the above pablum many many times, perhaps every Sunday.
Who was in the audience? A lot of atheists in church?
AMNESTY FOR ATHEISTS
Good news! There is hope for atheists!
Hooray!
The true God is both just and
loving. His justice demands that our rebellion be punished. His love
provided a means to fulfill this justice and restore us to a right
relationship with him. This is where the Messiah comes in. Out of love
for us, God took on a human nature and visited earth to take upon
himself the punishment we deserve for our lawbreaking. Jesus died as a
substitute for rebels to pay the penalty of those who deserve it,
whether religious or atheistic.
But you have to believe this event for it to work, right? What an odd
thing for a god to do. I mean, he knows exactly what would make me
believe, right? Why save only the irrational ones who believe first with
no reason? If he exists then he KNOWS that I CAN be convinced, despite
your presupposed excuse that anyone not yet convinced must be
closed-minded. So he didn't really "pay the penalty" for those who never
get convinced during life. Those guys still get screwed, right?
There is a judgement day coming,
Any day now...
God has proven this to us by raising Jesus from the dead. You have
this choice: let the Messiah take your punishment or take it yourself.
The choice seems obvious to me!
What strange usage of the word 'choice'.
Why turn down a free gift?
What strange usage of the word 'free'.
What a great
amnesty program! God wants each of us to admit we are wrong, receive
the payment He has provided, and come in with our hands up letting Him
rule over our lives. He promises to renew us, to enable us to live a
new life in His service, and to let us experience His presence
forever.
Excellent. I'll take it! And he can do ALL of that after I'm dead,
right? What?! What's so special about this blink-of-an-eye life with
only the "wishy washy" word of illogical humans to convince me, when I
could be EASILY convinced by finding myself before God when I die? Why
can't everyone get the same deal dead babies presumably get? Perhaps
because dead people can't spread your mythical stories like a virus?
If you persist in your atheism, one day you will stand before God and
you will have no doubt in your mind concerning His existence.
Wow, really? Good thing I'm an atheist then! I will get the proof that
you guys don't have!
His awesome reality will be undeniable to you, even though you won't
want to believe it! Are you still open-minded enough for more
information?
More in addition to what information? You havent yet provided any, only
a long list of EXCUSES for not providing the promised information.
"Here's why you won't believe...here's why I can't convince you...blah
blah blah...you'll be sorry!"
Maybe you'd like to get together with someone for a friendly and
relaxed talk about these things. Maybe you are intrigued, but wish
some more in-depth reading. We are happy to help.
The only intriguing thing is how you can function without a working
brain. You even manage to get other zombies to paste this crap into
newsgroups for you. Mazel Tov!
NC
.
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| User: "GoDrex" |
|
| Title: Re: The Absurdity Of Atheism |
29 Aug 2006 08:07:54 PM |
|
|
"Sound of Trumpet" <soundoftrumpet@bluebottle.com> wrote in message
news:1156890437.088050.48060@h48g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
As a former atheist myself,
no such thing...
NEXT!
.
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| User: "Denis Loubet" |
|
| Title: Re: The Absurdity Of Atheism |
29 Aug 2006 06:17:58 PM |
|
|
"Sound of Trumpet" <soundoftrumpet@bluebottle.com> wrote in message
news:1156890437.088050.48060@h48g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
http://www.chaim.org/atheist.htm
THE ABSURDITY OF ATHEISM
So you're an atheist. Mazel Tov, at least you aren't wishy washy. As a
former atheist myself, I won't condemn you.
Snip lies.
Nothing left.
--
Denis Loubet
dloubet@io.com
http://www.io.com/~dloubet
.
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| User: "Kurt Nicklas" |
|
| Title: Re: The Absurdity Of Atheism |
29 Aug 2006 07:07:41 PM |
|
|
Denis Loubet wrote:
"Sound of Trumpet" <soundoftrumpet@bluebottle.com> wrote in message
news:1156890437.088050.48060@h48g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
http://www.chaim.org/atheist.htm
THE ABSURDITY OF ATHEISM
So you're an atheist. Mazel Tov, at least you aren't wishy washy. As a
former atheist myself, I won't condemn you.
Snip lies.
Nothing left.
Loubert, the next sentence - which you saw fit to snip - says this:
"Some atheists
think they've taken a heroic stand, but could it be that they really
don't want to face up to the possibility that God is indeed there?"
That is a question. How can it be a lie?
And can you rule out the possibility that there may be some atheists
who,
in fact, really do not want to face that possibility?
Can you answer honestly? I doubt it.
.
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| User: "R. Pierce Butler" |
|
| Title: Re: The Absurdity Of Atheism |
30 Aug 2006 09:31:27 AM |
|
|
"Kurt Nicklas" <nicklask@bellsouth.net> wrote in
news:1156896461.432707.14230@h48g2000cwc.googlegroups.com:
Denis Loubet wrote:
"Sound of Trumpet" <soundoftrumpet@bluebottle.com> wrote in message
news:1156890437.088050.48060@h48g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
http://www.chaim.org/atheist.htm
THE ABSURDITY OF ATHEISM
So you're an atheist. Mazel Tov, at least you aren't wishy washy. As a
former atheist myself, I won't condemn you.
Snip lies.
Nothing left.
Loubert, the next sentence - which you saw fit to snip - says this:
"Some atheists
think they've taken a heroic stand, but could it be that they really
don't want to face up to the possibility that God is indeed there?"
That is a question. How can it be a lie?
Have you stopped beating your wife yet?
.
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| User: "gusCubed" |
|
| Title: Re: The Absurdity Of Atheism |
29 Aug 2006 10:15:05 PM |
|
|
Kurt Nicklas wrote:
Denis Loubet wrote:
"Sound of Trumpet" <soundoftrumpet@bluebottle.com> wrote in message
news:1156890437.088050.48060@h48g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
http://www.chaim.org/atheist.htm
THE ABSURDITY OF ATHEISM
So you're an atheist. Mazel Tov, at least you aren't wishy washy. As a
former atheist myself, I won't condemn you.
Snip lies.
Nothing left.
Loubert, the next sentence - which you saw fit to snip - says this:
"Some atheists
think they've taken a heroic stand, but could it be that they really
don't want to face up to the possibility that God is indeed there?"
That is a question. How can it be a lie?
And can you rule out the possibility that there may be some atheists
who,
in fact, really do not want to face that possibility?
Can you answer honestly? I doubt it.
But there are so many gods. Can you rule out the possibility that
you're not making God angry by worshipping the wrong one?
.
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| User: "Sean relaxing@earth" |
|
| Title: Re: The Absurdity Of Atheism |
29 Aug 2006 10:56:54 PM |
|
|
"gusCubed" <james.prendergast@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1156907705.832468.179810@i42g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
Kurt Nicklas wrote:
Denis Loubet wrote:
"Sound of Trumpet" <soundoftrumpet@bluebottle.com> wrote in message
news:1156890437.088050.48060@h48g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
http://www.chaim.org/atheist.htm
THE ABSURDITY OF ATHEISM
So you're an atheist. Mazel Tov, at least you aren't wishy washy. As
a
former atheist myself, I won't condemn you.
Snip lies.
Nothing left.
Loubert, the next sentence - which you saw fit to snip - says this:
"Some atheists
think they've taken a heroic stand, but could it be that they really
don't want to face up to the possibility that God is indeed there?"
That is a question. How can it be a lie?
And can you rule out the possibility that there may be some atheists
who,
in fact, really do not want to face that possibility?
Can you answer honestly? I doubt it.
But there are so many gods. Can you rule out the possibility that
you're not making God angry by worshipping the wrong one?
Isn't it presumptious to think God/creator could even be angry , let alone
be made angry by anyone or anything?
.
|
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| User: "gusCubed" |
|
| Title: Re: The Absurdity Of Atheism |
29 Aug 2006 11:02:31 PM |
|
|
Sean wrote:
"gusCubed" <james.prendergast@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1156907705.832468.179810@i42g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
Kurt Nicklas wrote:
Denis Loubet wrote:
"Sound of Trumpet" <soundoftrumpet@bluebottle.com> wrote in message
news:1156890437.088050.48060@h48g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
http://www.chaim.org/atheist.htm
THE ABSURDITY OF ATHEISM
So you're an atheist. Mazel Tov, at least you aren't wishy washy. As
a
former atheist myself, I won't condemn you.
Snip lies.
Nothing left.
Loubert, the next sentence - which you saw fit to snip - says this:
"Some atheists
think they've taken a heroic stand, but could it be that they really
don't want to face up to the possibility that God is indeed there?"
That is a question. How can it be a lie?
And can you rule out the possibility that there may be some atheists
who,
in fact, really do not want to face that possibility?
Can you answer honestly? I doubt it.
But there are so many gods. Can you rule out the possibility that
you're not making God angry by worshipping the wrong one?
Isn't it presumptious to think God/creator could even be angry , let alone
be made angry by anyone or anything?
About as presumptuous as believing that if he/she exists that it
actually cares whether we believe in it or not.
.
|
|
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| User: "Sean relaxing@earth" |
|
| Title: Re: The Absurdity Of Atheism |
29 Aug 2006 11:37:26 PM |
|
|
"gusCubed" <james.prendergast@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1156910551.283008.325380@m73g2000cwd.googlegroups.com...
Sean wrote:
"gusCubed" <james.prendergast@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1156907705.832468.179810@i42g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
Kurt Nicklas wrote:
Denis Loubet wrote:
"Sound of Trumpet" <soundoftrumpet@bluebottle.com> wrote in message
news:1156890437.088050.48060@h48g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
http://www.chaim.org/atheist.htm
THE ABSURDITY OF ATHEISM
So you're an atheist. Mazel Tov, at least you aren't wishy washy.
As
a
former atheist myself, I won't condemn you.
Snip lies.
Nothing left.
Loubert, the next sentence - which you saw fit to snip - says this:
"Some atheists
think they've taken a heroic stand, but could it be that they really
don't want to face up to the possibility that God is indeed there?"
That is a question. How can it be a lie?
And can you rule out the possibility that there may be some atheists
who,
in fact, really do not want to face that possibility?
Can you answer honestly? I doubt it.
But there are so many gods. Can you rule out the possibility that
you're not making God angry by worshipping the wrong one?
Isn't it presumptious to think God/creator could even be angry , let
alone
be made angry by anyone or anything?
About as presumptuous as believing that if he/she exists that it
actually cares whether we believe in it or not.
I couldn't agree more with you.
OK, so think worst case senario that IF he/she did in fact exist and it's
rational to conclude that God wouldn't care whether you personally believe
in it or not, why worry about mere humans who do believe, or those
apparently caring about you not believing in IT?
Best case senario for you is that God doesn;t exist.
Like, either way, it doesn't matter at all, does it?
Follow?
iow if Joe thinks atheism is absurd, and Fred thinks that theism is absurd,
then so what? Whether God exists or doesn't is irrelevant to both those
opinions.
If God does exist, then it ain't going to be ***** at you for being
yourself. Anything anyone else says about your atheism should logically pail
into utter insignificance. <smile>
.
|
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|
| User: "Roedy Green" |
|
| Title: Re: The Absurdity Of Atheism |
30 Aug 2006 02:42:48 AM |
|
|
On Wed, 30 Aug 2006 14:37:26 +1000, "Sean" <relaxing@earth> wrote,
quoted or indirectly quoted someone who said :
OK, so think worst case senario that IF he/she did in fact exist and it's
rational to conclude that God wouldn't care whether you personally believe
in it or not, why worry about mere humans who do believe, or those
apparently caring about you not believing in IT?
If God wanted to give a code of conduct to the human species, you'd
think he would sign it in some way, so you it would not look like the
work of some pretentious human pretending to be god the way all the
given religions look to me.
The code itself should be mildly miraculous -- e.g. on titanium
tablets before the discovery of titanium. At least it would have to
come from a more advanced civilisation.
Or perhaps it could be carved in letters 100 feet high on vertical
cliffs on the mountains of the earth.
Perhaps it should just appear in your hand on request.
Just a book, and unusually badly written, erroneous and self
contradictory book such as the old testament of the bible is not in
the least impressive. It is INSULTING to claim such crap is the work
of the creator of the universe.
see http://mindprod.com/religion/noah.html
--
Canadian Mind Products, Roedy Green, http://mindprod.com
See links to the Lebanon photos that Google censored at
http://mindprod.com/politics/israel.html
.
|
|
|
| User: "Sean relaxing@earth" |
|
| Title: Re: The Absurdity Of Atheism |
30 Aug 2006 04:14:10 AM |
|
|
"Roedy Green" <see_website@mindprod.com.invalid> wrote in message
news:6afaf257kj3tsbkg6him8npdgem0ggtqtg@4ax.com...
On Wed, 30 Aug 2006 14:37:26 +1000, "Sean" <relaxing@earth> wrote,
quoted or indirectly quoted someone who said :
OK, so think worst case senario that IF he/she did in fact exist and it's
rational to conclude that God wouldn't care whether you personally believe
in it or not, why worry about mere humans who do believe, or those
apparently caring about you not believing in IT?
If God wanted to give a code of conduct to the human species, you'd
think he would sign it in some way, so you it would not look like the
work of some pretentious human pretending to be god the way all the
given religions look to me.
The code itself should be mildly miraculous -- e.g. on titanium
tablets before the discovery of titanium. At least it would have to
come from a more advanced civilisation.
Or perhaps it could be carved in letters 100 feet high on vertical
cliffs on the mountains of the earth.
Perhaps it should just appear in your hand on request.
Just a book, and unusually badly written, erroneous and self
contradictory book such as the old testament of the bible is not in
the least impressive. It is INSULTING to claim such crap is the work
of the creator of the universe.
Or one could even look in the mirror, and realise that God doesn't make
crap. <vbg>
see http://mindprod.com/religion/noah.html
--
Canadian Mind Products, Roedy Green, http://mindprod.com
See links to the Lebanon photos that Google censored at
http://mindprod.com/politics/israel.html
.
|
|
|
|
| User: "Brian Fletcher" |
|
| Title: Re: The Absurdity Of Atheism |
30 Aug 2006 06:06:40 PM |
|
|
"Roedy Green" <see_website@mindprod.com.invalid> wrote in message
news:6afaf257kj3tsbkg6him8npdgem0ggtqtg@4ax.com...
On Wed, 30 Aug 2006 14:37:26 +1000, "Sean" <relaxing@earth> wrote,
quoted or indirectly quoted someone who said :
OK, so think worst case senario that IF he/she did in fact exist and it's
rational to conclude that God wouldn't care whether you personally believe
in it or not, why worry about mere humans who do believe, or those
apparently caring about you not believing in IT?
If God wanted to give a code of conduct to the human species, you'd
think he would sign it in some way, so you it would not look like the
work of some pretentious human pretending to be god the way all the
given religions look to me.
The code itself should be mildly miraculous -- e.g. on titanium
tablets before the discovery of titanium. At least it would have to
come from a more advanced civilisation.
Or perhaps it could be carved in letters 100 feet high on vertical
cliffs on the mountains of the earth.
Perhaps it should just appear in your hand on request.
Just a book, and unusually badly written, erroneous and self
contradictory book such as the old testament of the bible is not in
the least impressive. It is INSULTING to claim such crap is the work
of the creator of the universe.
There are a vast number of positions people take on the subject of God (some
would say as many as there are people).
I started a recent thread titled "endless evidence". You summed it up well
when you said "at least it would come from a more advanced civilisation".
But what does that prove? We are a more advanced civilisation to many
species on Earth, and when 'white men' invaded the new world, they appeared
to be more advanced than the inhabitants, as they were in many ways.
To look externally, no matter how advanced or numerous species are
discovered, one is still only discovering life, not the "secret" of life.
BOfL
.
|
|
|
| User: "Conspiracy of Doves" |
|
| Title: Re: The Absurdity Of Atheism |
30 Aug 2006 08:48:32 PM |
|
|
Brian Fletcher wrote:
"Roedy Green" <see_website@mindprod.com.invalid> wrote in message
news:6afaf257kj3tsbkg6him8npdgem0ggtqtg@4ax.com...
On Wed, 30 Aug 2006 14:37:26 +1000, "Sean" <relaxing@earth> wrote,
quoted or indirectly quoted someone who said :
OK, so think worst case senario that IF he/she did in fact exist and it's
rational to conclude that God wouldn't care whether you personally believe
in it or not, why worry about mere humans who do believe, or those
apparently caring about you not believing in IT?
If God wanted to give a code of conduct to the human species, you'd
think he would sign it in some way, so you it would not look like the
work of some pretentious human pretending to be god the way all the
given religions look to me.
The code itself should be mildly miraculous -- e.g. on titanium
tablets before the discovery of titanium. At least it would have to
come from a more advanced civilisation.
Or perhaps it could be carved in letters 100 feet high on vertical
cliffs on the mountains of the earth.
Perhaps it should just appear in your hand on request.
Just a book, and unusually badly written, erroneous and self
contradictory book such as the old testament of the bible is not in
the least impressive. It is INSULTING to claim such crap is the work
of the creator of the universe.
There are a vast number of positions people take on the subject of God (some
would say as many as there are people).
I started a recent thread titled "endless evidence". You summed it up well
when you said "at least it would come from a more advanced civilisation".
But what does that prove? We are a more advanced civilisation to many
species on Earth, and when 'white men' invaded the new world, they appeared
to be more advanced than the inhabitants, as they were in many ways.
In what way were white people more advanced than the native americans
other than technologically and militarily?
To look externally, no matter how advanced or numerous species are
discovered, one is still only discovering life, not the "secret" of life.
BOfL
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| User: "Brian Fletcher" |
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| Title: Re: The Absurdity Of Atheism |
31 Aug 2006 05:18:36 AM |
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"Conspiracy of Doves" <mark_dp73@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1156988912.610887.76630@p79g2000cwp.googlegroups.com...
Brian Fletcher wrote:
"Roedy Green" <see_website@mindprod.com.invalid> wrote in message
news:6afaf257kj3tsbkg6him8npdgem0ggtqtg@4ax.com...
On Wed, 30 Aug 2006 14:37:26 +1000, "Sean" <relaxing@earth> wrote,
quoted or indirectly quoted someone who said :
OK, so think worst case senario that IF he/she did in fact exist and
it's
rational to conclude that God wouldn't care whether you personally
believe
in it or not, why worry about mere humans who do believe, or those
apparently caring about you not believing in IT?
If God wanted to give a code of conduct to the human species, you'd
think he would sign it in some way, so you it would not look like the
work of some pretentious human pretending to be god the way all the
given religions look to me.
The code itself should be mildly miraculous -- e.g. on titanium
tablets before the discovery of titanium. At least it would have to
come from a more advanced civilisation.
Or perhaps it could be carved in letters 100 feet high on vertical
cliffs on the mountains of the earth.
Perhaps it should just appear in your hand on request.
Just a book, and unusually badly written, erroneous and self
contradictory book such as the old testament of the bible is not in
the least impressive. It is INSULTING to claim such crap is the work
of the creator of the universe.
There are a vast number of positions people take on the subject of God
(some
would say as many as there are people).
I started a recent thread titled "endless evidence". You summed it up
well
when you said "at least it would come from a more advanced civilisation".
But what does that prove? We are a more advanced civilisation to many
species on Earth, and when 'white men' invaded the new world, they
appeared
to be more advanced than the inhabitants, as they were in many ways.
In what way were white people more advanced than the native americans
other than technologically and militarily?
I did say "appeared", in line with the thread.
BOfL
To look externally, no matter how advanced or numerous species are
discovered, one is still only discovering life, not the "secret" of life.
BOfL
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| User: "beber" |
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| Title: Re: The Absurdity Of Atheism |
30 Aug 2006 07:33:20 AM |
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On Wed, 30 Aug 2006 14:37:26 +1000, "Sean" <relaxing@earth> wrote:
God is as real as a rock as long as people believe in god.
It's like Newton's physics don't really work, but it's good enough for
you and me, and the practical things we do. God is cultural. He is a
shout: "We are here, we are real, we are we." He is the articulated
spirit of a culture. And that's fucking real.
You don't have to believe, but don't ***** with other's belief. It'll
get you in bad trouble every time. I get sick of them fucking with me,
though. Can't they just leave it alone?
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| User: "Roedy Green" |
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| Title: Re: The Absurdity Of Atheism |
30 Aug 2006 02:45:32 PM |
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On Wed, 30 Aug 2006 07:33:20 -0500, beber <buplerum@yahoo.com> wrote,
quoted or indirectly quoted someone who said :
God is as real as a rock as long as people believe in god.
No. God does bugger all for you other that create a false sense of
security. You might not pack an earthquake kit imagining God will
provide, even though you have never once heard of him doing so.
God is a DANGEROUS delusion.
God is mostly an excuse Americans have to kill Iraqis and vice versa.
--
Canadian Mind Products, Roedy Green, http://mindprod.com
See links to the Lebanon photos that Google censored at
http://mindprod.com/politics/israel.html
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: The Absurdity Of Atheism |
30 Aug 2006 03:31:48 PM |
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Roedy Green wrote:
God is mostly an excuse Americans have to kill Iraqis and vice versa.
Even without that all that god crap Hussien had to go and the Iraqis
were and will continue to kill each other over all that irrational god
crap for eons to come, I just wished it wasn't a god nut who made the
decision for America to take him out because that war was morally
justified, just as it was morally justified to stop Hitler and just as
it is morally justified to stop Mugabee and Iran's leaders and North
Korea's etal.
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| User: "Tuco Ramirez" |
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| Title: Re: The Absurdity Of Atheism |
31 Aug 2006 12:12:36 AM |
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wrote:
Roedy Green wrote:
God is mostly an excuse Americans have to kill Iraqis and vice versa.
Even without that all that god crap Hussien had to go and the Iraqis
were and will continue to kill each other over all that irrational god
crap for eons to come, I just wished it wasn't a god nut who made the
decision for America to take him out because that war was morally
justified, just as it was morally justified to stop Hitler and just as
it is morally justified to stop Mugabee and Iran's leaders and North
Korea's etal.
And when will the brits be leaving Aotearoa? Will the war to get rid
of those evil invaders be justified? If not, then why not, given your
belief in all the other "just" wars?
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: The Absurdity Of Atheism |
31 Aug 2006 05:58:30 AM |
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Tuco Ramirez wrote:
And when will the brits be leaving Aotearoa?
You dont even know the meaning of the word aotearoa you racist git.
Will the war to get rid
of those evil invaders be justified?
Asks an invader, what a twit, what and I suppose you reckon the tribe
called maoris never invaded.
Ewe're having pecuniary convienient and extremely selective history
recalls eh bro?
If not, then why not, given your
belief in all the other "just" wars?
Go on dont let me stop you from starting a war, this will be fun.
Michael Gordge
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| User: "Tuco Ramirez" |
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| Title: Re: The Absurdity Of Atheism |
31 Aug 2006 09:29:09 AM |
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wrote:
Tuco Ramirez wrote:
And when will the brits be leaving Aotearoa?
You dont even know the meaning of the word aotearoa you racist git.
Will the war to get rid
of those evil invaders be justified?
Asks an invader, what a twit, what and I suppose you reckon the tribe
called maoris never invaded.
Ewe're having pecuniary convienient and extremely selective history
recalls eh bro?
If not, then why not, given your
belief in all the other "just" wars?
Go on dont let me stop you from starting a war, this will be fun.
Just as I suspected: When brits invade it is justified, when others do,
they are evil. Got it.
Make sure you don't fall off that high horse.
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: The Absurdity Of Atheism |
01 Sep 2006 01:50:56 AM |
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Tuco Ramirez wrote:
Just as I suspected: When brits invade it is justified,
And the maoris didn't invade? you ignorant git. FFS the maoris were
still eating each other in the late 19th century and would have eaten
themselves off the face of the earth if it weren't for the invaders,
but dont let the facts ***** your day eh hori bro.
Michael Gordge
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| User: "Tuco Ramirez" |
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| Title: Re: The Absurdity Of Atheism |
01 Sep 2006 11:02:54 AM |
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wrote:
Tuco Ramirez wrote:
Just as I suspected: When brits invade it is justified,
And the maoris didn't invade? you ignorant git. FFS the maoris were
still eating each other in the late 19th century and would have eaten
themselves off the face of the earth if it weren't for the invaders,
but dont let the facts ***** your day eh hori bro.
So you invaded to "protect" them? How kind of you! What color is that
high horse?
In any case, it will all be academic in a couple hundred years after
the asian have kicked you out of Australia and New Zealand. Australia
will be first, so don't pack your bags yet.
Let's review one more time:
When maoris invade, they are evil.
When brits invade, they are generous protectors.
Got it!
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: The Absurdity Of Atheism |
01 Sep 2006 04:01:03 PM |
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Tuco Ramirez wrote:
Let's review one more time:
When maoris invade, they are evil.
You raised the subject of invading NOT ME, I was doing nothing more
than playing your silly game.
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| User: "Tuco Ramirez" |
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| Title: Re: The Absurdity Of Atheism |
01 Sep 2006 10:37:08 PM |
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wrote:
Tuco Ramirez wrote:
Let's review one more time:
When maoris invade, they are evil.
You raised the subject of invading NOT ME, I was doing nothing more
than playing your silly game.
You did fool, what do you think this little gem means:
"Even without that all that god crap Hussien had to go and the Iraqis
were and will continue to kill each other over all that irrational god
crap for eons to come, I just wished it wasn't a god nut who made the
decision for America to take him out because that war was morally
justified, just as it was morally justified to stop Hitler and just as
it is morally justified to stop Mugabee and Iran's leaders and North
Korea's etal. "
I was doing nothing more
than playing your silly game.
I was doing nothing more than poking fun at an ***** who likes to
point fingers while riding his high horse. It seems to be a very
british trait.
You guys are the only ones who can invade a country, pepetrate a
genocide, and have the nerve to say (and actually believe it!) that it
is "for their own good".
Me? When I am robbing my victims I suffer no delusions of it being
"for their own good".
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: The Absurdity Of Atheism |
01 Sep 2006 11:14:08 PM |
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Tuco Ramirez wrote:
You guys are the only ones who can invade a country,
What a fucken wanker ewe are.
Who but a fucken madman would want to go and live in Iraq?
Invaded, PIGS ARSE'
NZ was NOT invaded either you sick racist fool, get over it.
Michael Gordge
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| User: "Tuco Ramirez" |
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| Title: Re: The Absurdity Of Atheism |
01 Sep 2006 11:52:42 PM |
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wrote:
Tuco Ramirez wrote:
You guys are the only ones who can invade a country,
What a fucken wanker ewe are.
Who but a fucken madman would want to go and live in Iraq?
The question is who the ***** wants to live in New Zealand? It's in the
middle of fucking nowhere!
Invaded, PIGS ARSE'
NZ was NOT invaded either you sick racist fool, get over it.
That's right! Brits don't invade, they "settle", that the native
population loses their property and their lives is just mere
coincidence.
You still haven't revealed the color of your high horse.
I am curious, what do they teach you in history class regarding this
subject?
Aren't atheists supposed to be wise and intelligent skeptics? Why do
you then believe everything that The State teaches you? I think we may
have found your god.
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: The Absurdity Of Atheism |
02 Sep 2006 12:20:06 AM |
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Tuco Ramirez wrote:
The question is who the ***** wants to live in New Zealand? It's in the
middle of fucking nowhere!
And has a leftist scummy racist, socialist maori appeasing government,
dont forget that bit hori.
That's right! Brits don't invade, they "settle", that the native
population loses their property and their lives is just mere
coincidence.
Their property pig's hahahahahah thats funny, pigs arse, there was no
such thing as property rights until white man got to NZ and taught the
maoris the meaning of it.
You still haven't revealed the color of your high horse.
Morality doesn't have a colour as such.
I am curious, what do they teach you in history class regarding this
subject?
Oh the typical leftist *****, poor hard up oppressed invented natives,
the same sort of leftist ***** propaganda in US schools over Indians and
black sl | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
