Religions > Atheism > The Alliance With Stalin Is A Permanent Stain On The Western Democracies
| Topic: |
Religions > Atheism |
| User: |
"Sound of Trumpet" |
| Date: |
05 May 2006 03:13:29 PM |
| Object: |
The Alliance With Stalin Is A Permanent Stain On The Western Democracies |
http://www.sobran.com/friends.shtml
The Friends of Uncle Joe
(Reprinted from SOBRAN'S, April 2000, pages 2-6)
The year 2000 has brought a predictable flood of retrospection, with
several equally predictable nominees for Man (or rather "Person")
of the Century. These include Albert Einstein (chosen by Time), Winston
Churchill (the choice of The Weekly Standard), and Franklin D.
Roosevelt (the choice of several, including Arthur Schlesinger Jr. in
the New York Daily News).
The gushing encomia deal very lightly, as one might also have
predicted, with one fact common to all three: their fondness for Joseph
Stalin, perhaps the Mass Murderer of the Millennium. Time fails to
mention that the saintly Professor Einstein, a man of "humane and
democratic instincts," was a relentless fellow-traveler who defended
even Stalin's macabre 1938 Moscow show trials; the anti-Communist
philosopher Sidney Hook recalled in his autobiography, Out of Step,
that getting Einstein to criticize the Soviet Union was like pulling
teeth.
Roosevelt's eulogists likewise avoid the subject of Stalin, for whom
FDR had the highest regard, calling him "a Christian gentleman"
during the Yalta conference. He had befriended Stalin from the first
year of his administration, when he extended diplomatic recognition to
the murderous pariah state. Time and again he chose to help "Uncle
Joe" when he didn't have to, appeasing him from a position of
strength. Even Neville Chamberlain never idealized Hitler as "Uncle
Adolf." When FDR asked Pope Pius XII to condemn Hitler, Pius sent
back word that if he did so he would also have to condemn Stalin;
Roosevelt withdrew the request.
As for Churchill, we are assured that he had no illusions about Stalin,
which only makes his wartime indulgence of the tyrant harder to excuse.
His 1946 complaint (in a famous speech in Fulton, Missouri) about the
"Iron Curtain" falling on Eastern Europe after World War II is
treated as prophetic, when it was just the opposite: a totally
hypocritical gesture. Anyone who didn't know what to expect of Stalin
by 1946 - or who could believe his guarantees at Yalta in 1945 -
was a moron. And Churchill was no moron, only a cynic feigning alarm at
the obvious.
Stalin had shown his true colors long before Roosevelt and Churchill
took on as their ally the brave, bluff "Uncle Joe." Had they never
heard of the forced famine of Ukraine, the NKVD mass arrests, the Gulag
camps, the purges and show trials, the murder of Trotsky, the invasions
of Poland (with the Katyn Forest massacre of 15,000 Polish officers),
Finland, Estonia, Latvia, and Lithuania? All these things, and more,
revealed not only the brutality of Stalin but the logic of Communism
itself, which had begun its reign in Russia with the mass murder of
Orthodox priests under Lenin. Communism was in essence a reversion to
the principles of primitive warfare, directed not only against external
enemies but against its own subjects if they resisted (or were even
suspected of a disposition to resist) its tyranny.
The alliance with the Soviet Union is a permanent bloodstain on the
Western democracies. It was part of what F.J.P. Veale, a British
jurist, called the Allies' "advance to barbarism" in his
mercilessly trenchant book of that title. Long out of print, Advance to
Barbarism is now available only from the Institute for Historical
Review in Torrance, California. The book is both essential to read and
difficult to obtain. It's remarkable for the iron logic with which
Veale seizes on the damning casual admissions, and even the occasional
twinges of conscience, of the victors of World War II. (He finds such
twinges far more often in Churchill than in Roosevelt.)
The exaltation of the three Stalin-lovers as the heroes of the century,
and saviors of civilization, is almost incomprehensible. It's as if
we were asked to believe that three of the greatest men of the Middle
Ages - say, Innocent III, Dante, and St. Francis of Assisi had been
friends and admirers of Genghis Khan.
The truth is that the Allied cause was as unholy as Hitler's. Veale
ranks the Allies' policies of terror-bombing and "war-crimes"
trials with Hitler's genocide as the distinguishing features of the
"retrograde movement of civilization" that culminated in World War
II. The readiness with which Churchill and Roosevelt embraced Stalin as
an ally after Hitler attacked Russia in 1941 was only one signal of the
new morality of warfare they were prepared to adopt; they so far
forgave Stalin's part in the rape of Poland that began the war in
1939 as to entrust him, at the war's end in 1945, with control of
Poland.
War has always been terrible, of course, and mass extermination was a
regular occurrence until the development of what may be called, without
irony, the rules of "civilized warfare" late in the seventeenth
century. At that time Europe's rulers, exhausted by bloody combat,
came to agree on certain conventions: combat should be confined to
soldiers in uniform; civilians and their property should be left alone;
prisoners should be treated humanely; and defeated powers should be
spared total devastation and indignity. These rules held until (and to
some extent even after) World War I, replacing the logic of
annihilation that governed primitive or "primary warfare" - the
unrestricted slaughter common between warring societies with no
civilized principles in common.
For more than two centuries after the age of Louis XIV, European
civilians were so unmolested that they often barely realized that their
rulers were at war, and ordinary travel and commerce between countries
usually continued during hostilities. The courtliness between rulers
and officers of opposing armies, like the jovial fraternization between
common soldiers as soon as peace was restored, is often hard to believe
now. A sort of golden rule prevailed; each victor realized that he
might be tomorrow's loser, so everyone tried to avoid leaving a
legacy of bitterness by treating the vanquished reasonably and often
generously. Peace treaties politely avoided any tone of blame or
recrimination.
There were exceptions, of course. Napoleon's mass armies changed the
character of war for a while; Lincoln's policy of waging war on
civilian areas shocked European observers. Lincoln justified this on
grounds that he was dealing not with a traditional war, but with a
rebellion, in which the entire enemy population might be treated as
criminals and traitors. The idealizers of Lincoln have blamed his
policy on the generals who merely carried it out, especially Sherman
and Sheridan. Of course even Lincoln was unable to apply this view
consistently; to do so would have meant executing nearly every
Southerner, soldier or civilian. But Lee's gallantry was more typical
of the code of the professional man of arms. Veale notes that the South
was more imbued with European culture, including military culture, than
the North.
According to Veale, World War I was not truly a world war, but only the
last and worst of Europe's civil wars. There were serious lapses from
the code of civilized warfare: the British naval blockade of Europe
caused mass starvation, for example, and Allied propaganda diabolized
the Kaiser and the "Huns" with wild atrocity stories of bayoneted
babies. But in the end, as usual, the parties convened after the war to
make a settlement among themselves, although, for the first time, a
non-European power had a say: the United States, led by the blundering
Woodrow Wilson.
But in contrast to earlier peace settlements, Germany was unfairly
blamed and cruelly looted, leaving Germans poor and starving. The
bitter fruit of German "war guilt" set the stage for a far worse
war, which would result in a settlement dictated, for the first time in
European history, by non-European powers: the United States and the
Soviet Union.
Shortly after World War I British military planners, contemplating war
with France at the time, began to savor the possibilities of aerial
warfare against civilian targets. By 1936, well before World War II,
the British started preparing for an aerial war - a total break with
the principles of civilized warfare. When the war came, they soon put
this new idea into effect, catching the Germans unprepared. Such
British military authorities as J.M. Spaight and Arthur "Bomber"
Harris, looking back triumphantly at the success of terror-bombing,
later wrote books gloating that the Germans had been caught flatfooted!
Instead of adapting to the new technology of war, the Germans had
continued to regard aerial bombing as mere tactical support for ground
troops and the bomber as a form of airborne combat artillery; and
because they didn't perceive the possibility of "strategic"
bombing against the population and resources of an enemy country, the
Luftwaffe had no heavy bombers with which to match the destructive fury
of the Royal Air Force even for the purpose of retaliating against RAF
strikes on German cities. Yet the boasts of men like Spaight and Harris
didn't affect the popular view (and official story) that the Germans
had originated the atrocity of bombing cities.
Official American propaganda likewise used the Japanese bombing of
Chinese cities as a justification for fighting Japan, until the United
States itself adopted the policy of bombing Japanese and German cities.
Since this policy was accepted as legitimate when employed against
diabolical enemies, it's now difficult for most people to recall the
nauseous horror that bombing cities used to inspire. As Veale says, we
have all become inured not only to atrocities in a holy cause but to
the sort of "doublethink' that reasons: "We must be willing to
slaughter innocent people in order to defeat our monstrous enemies, who
slaughter innocent people."
The test came when, in 1940, Churchill's War Cabinet (in what Spaight
would later praise as a "splendid decision") secretly adopted the
policy of striking industrial areas of Germany outside the combat zone,
vastly broadening the definition of military objectives and ensuring
many civilian casualties. Two years later this policy was expanded
under the Lindemann Plan to deliberately targeting the most thickly
populated areas of industrial cities - working-class neighborhoods
near factories, where workers and their families lived in crowded
tenements. Attacks on civilians were actually given priority over
attacks on factories. Men, women, and children alike became "military
objectives"; undefended cities like Hamburg and Dresden became
furnaces in which people flung themselves into rivers to escape the
terrific heat; old houses, churches, and other buildings that had
survived from the Middle Ages were reduced to rubble by the latest
methods, and oldest principles, of warfare. Even the confines of zoos
were destroyed, and frantic wild animals roamed the streets. Burial of
all the dead being impossible, funeral pyres disposed of bodies for
weeks after the air raids.
Meanwhile, Churchill and his cronies lied to Parliament, denying that
they were practicing "indiscriminate bombing." In one sense the
denials were true. The bombing was anything but indiscriminate, since
killing and terrorizing civilians was not a side effect of error or
carelessness but the fully conscious purpose of the Lindemann Plan. The
full truth emerged only long after the war, in the early 1960s. But by
then it all seemed ancient history to most people, few cared much about
the truth, and the war's mythology was too firmly established to be
shaken. Veale had already gathered the essence of the story before all
the details were released, but even now his work is little known and
the official wartime story is still vaguely accepted as essentially
true.
At the time it was happening, the British public thought German charges
of deliberate bombing of civilians were the products of Joseph
Goebbels's propaganda machine. And when the Germans retaliated with
the infamous Blitz against British cities, as Churchill foresaw, the
Englishman in the street was outraged at Germany's hideous violation
of civilized rules of warfare, never dreaming that his own government
had purposely provoked it.
Hitler himself, according to his biographer John Toland, was so shocked
by the British bombing of cities that he at first excused it as a
mistake, due to the inexperience of British bomber pilots. He
couldn't believe the British were capable of such savagery. It was
three months before the Germans responded in kind. Even so, as Spaight
later admitted: "Hitler assuredly did not want the mutual bombing to
go on."
Franklin Roosevelt and the Americans were quite willing to join in the
new spirit of total war. Roosevelt, an acolyte of Wilson, had always
yearned for war with Germany and the chance to build an American global
empire; the American people had been roused to fury and race-hatred by
the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor, likewise never suspecting that it
had been in any way provoked. "Sneaky Japs" seemed a sufficient
explanation and no punishment seemed excessive.
A new book, Day of Deceit, by Robert B. Stinnett, argues that Roosevelt
actually knew the attack was coming - but excuses him anyway! After
all, "the Pearl Harbor attack was, from the White House perspective,
something that had to be endured in order to stop a greater evil -
the Nazi invaders in Europe who had begun the Holocaust and were poised
to invade England." These words show how thoroughly the democracies
still accept the notion that the end - stopping Hitler (the "sneaky
Japs" have receded from the picture) - justified any and every
means, including massive deception of the American public. As of 1941,
of course, Hitler had not yet "begun the Holocaust"; besides, his
persecution of Jews played no part in Roosevelt's callous
calculations.
Goaded by Einstein and others, Roosevelt also launched the quest for
the ultimate bomb, one that would incinerate whole cities in a flash.
This final nail in the coffin of civilized warfare was originally
intended for German cities; one wonders whether Americans might feel
somewhat more rueful about it today if it had been dropped on Berlin
and Munich rather than Hiroshima and Nagasaki. The use of this bomb -
more truly Roosevelt's bomb than Harry Truman's - stands as the
most inhuman act of the whole war, a fact that Allied harping on Nazi
"war crimes" has successfully diverted most people from realizing.
No American president has used power as ruthlessly as Roosevelt. His
liberal admirers are somewhat embarrassed by his order to round up U.S.
citizens of Japanese extraction - a brazen violation of their
constitutional rights - but it was of a piece with his constant use
of federal agencies to punish, smear, or disable anyone he deemed an
enemy. The notion that FDR was somehow on the side of civil liberties
is hard to fathom. His critics correctly sized him up as a dictator at
heart. His affinity with Stalin was genuine. Both were exemplars of the
total state and total war.
In another breach of the rules of civilized warfare, Roosevelt and
Churchill insisted on unconditional surrender by the Axis powers,
thereby prolonging the war and immensely intensifying its bitterness.
They made it clear that there would be no mercy for the losers.
As the war drew to a close, Veale notes, Roosevelt and Churchill were
eager to placate Stalin, who at the 1943 Tehran conference had urged
that 50,000 German officials be dispatched a la Katyn Forest. This was
a little more than the democratic leaders figured their people could
stomach, so they proposed an alternative Stalinist method: postwar sham
trials, observing the superficial forms of judicial process. Stalin,
sighing at this bourgeois sentimentalism, for once yielded. In fact he
eventually staged thousands of war-crimes "trials" of his own, in
which there were, of course, no acquittals to speak of.
When the trials began at Nuremberg, there were a few irregularities.
The accusers (including Soviet "judges" with long experience in
Stalinist jurisprudence) doubled as jurors; the court was never
impartial; the accused were judged guilty before the proceedings began.
The rules of evidence sharply limited the defense; the defendants were
not permitted to argue that the Allies had committed the same acts they
were being accused of.
Even at that, the Germans were never tried for bombing civilian areas,
because the Allies didn't want to risk calling attention to the fact
that they themselves had initiated this particular "crime against
humanity." The novel charge of "waging a war of aggression" was
never defined, because no definition could be found that would cover
the German invasion of Poland without also covering Soviet invasions of
Poland and several other countries to boot.
Such treatment of prisoners of war was also a novel departure from the
old rules, which the Allies justified by arbitrarily declaring the
captured German military officers to be civilians. This made them
eligible to be tried as criminals under the inchoate new rules. The
purpose of the trials was not to do justice or to determine guilt
according to normal standards of law (which forbid ex post facto
trials), but to give the Allies a propaganda victory on top of their
military triumph.
In essence, the Germans were convicted of losing the war. The only real
"war crime," as Veale points out, was being defeated. The honorable
German admiral Erich Raeder, for example, was convicted for invading
Norway, though he had merely beaten the British to the punch on the eve
of their own planned invasion. The whole thing was a shameless break
with precedent, but it set its own precedents for the pursuit of aging
"war criminals" that still continues. When similar trials were held
in Tokyo two years later, an Indian jurist who participated decried the
proceedings: "The farce of a trial of vanquished leaders by the
victors was itself an offense against humanity." No Western jurist
had found the courage to say as much at Nuremberg.
Under the circumstances, it's easy to understand why some students of
the war even doubt that Hitler's persecution of Jews, revolting as it
was, amounted to a "Holocaust" or extermination program. It may
have happened as the official story has it, and Veale, who questions
most of the Allied claims, expresses no doubt of it; but if so, it's
about the only thing the Allies told the truth about. At any rate, the
story of the Holocaust is suspiciously convenient for those who were
willing to commit such horrors that only something like an enormous
program of mass murder could divert attention from their own guilt.
With all due respect for those who really suffered at Hitler's hands,
some skepticism is in order. Whatever the truth, Hitler is not the only
one who deserves lasting infamy. So do several Persons of the Century.
Veale deals lightly with the postwar mass deportation of large
populations, including the "repatriation" of millions to the Soviet
Union (and certain death) during what was later known as Operation
Keelhaul. At the time when Veale wrote, shortly after the war, little
had been published about these final Allied favors to Uncle Joe. Since
then, James Bacque and other historians have concluded that the Allies
also starved millions of Germans after the war, a policy that was
interrupted only by the breach between the democracies and the Soviet
Union; luckily for the surviving Germans, the Cold War necessitated a
new alliance with what was left of Germany.
Since the Cold War began, the democracies have repudiated Stalin and
Communism. But that does nothing to remove the great bloodstain of
World War II, still liberalism's holy war. The democracies were
Stalin's eager partners in atrocity and mendacity, and they committed
plenty of crimes of their own that can't be blamed on Uncle Joe. And
for what it's worth, the Allied atrocities seem to have failed on
their own terms. Most analysts agree that they intensified the war
without really affecting the outcome. Veale argues that the diversion
of RAF bombers to Germany may even have changed the outcome of the
Battle of France in 1940, when one defeat might have toppled Hitler and
cut the war short. In the end the victors succeeded chiefly in
hardening their own consciences, while giving Stalin the spoils.
Some sort of pragmatic defense of the war might have been made on the
frank grounds of power: Churchill and the British wanted to oppose
German power, which threatened their own global empire (while speaking
frankly of "the British Empire" in private, for propaganda purposes
Churchill called his cause "democracy" in public); Roosevelt wanted
also to stop the Japanese, those insolent yellow dwarfs (as Veale
caustically puts it) who dared to challenge the white man's rule in
the Far East.
But Roosevelt and Churchill chose to wage the war as a Manichaean
crusade against evil, while cutting their cynical deal with the devil
in the Kremlin (not to mention the one in hell). Their partnership with
Uncle Joe, their resort to aerial mass murder, and their participation
in postwar enormities destroyed any moral claim they made for the war.
Sooner or later the accepted view of this heroic epic is going to have
to be drastically revised, as Veale perceived immediately after the war
ended.
The Allied crimes have never been acknowledged, except as wartime
necessities justified by noble ends; and the Allied criminals have
never been brought to the dock. Instead, they are still honored as
heroes of the twentieth century. (Even the memory of the odious
"Bomber" Harris - long ostracized with distaste and moral
embarrassment by the British Establishment for his rather unseemly
enthusiasm for killing civilians - was recently honored by the
erection of a statue in London.) And the entire American establishment
still has a stake in the mythology of World War II; its legitimacy
rests largely on its boast that it saved the world from Hitler. It can
afford neither to disown its alliance with Stalin nor to face the
implications of its having befriended him. It still condemns the
"isolationists" who knew exactly what Stalin was a decade before
Churchill acknowledged it at Fulton.
Joseph Sobran
.
|
|
| User: "Geoffrey Sinclair" |
|
| Title: Re: The Alliance With Stalin Is A Permanent Stain On The Western Democracies |
08 May 2006 03:56:13 AM |
|
|
"Sound of Trumpet" <soundoftrumpet@hoshmail.com> wrote in message
news:1146860009.524658.25060@y43g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
The Friends of Uncle Joe
(Reprinted from SOBRAN'S, April 2000, pages 2-6)
The year 2000 has brought a predictable flood of retrospection, with
several equally predictable nominees for Man (or rather "Person")
of the Century. These include Albert Einstein (chosen by Time), Winston
Churchill (the choice of The Weekly Standard), and Franklin D.
Roosevelt (the choice of several, including Arthur Schlesinger Jr. in
the New York Daily News).
So we have the auto repeat of a 6 year old article.
The gushing encomia deal very lightly, as one might also have
predicted, with one fact common to all three: their fondness for Joseph
Stalin, perhaps the Mass Murderer of the Millennium. Time fails to
mention that the saintly Professor Einstein, a man of "humane and
democratic instincts," was a relentless fellow-traveler who defended
even Stalin's macabre 1938 Moscow show trials; the anti-Communist
philosopher Sidney Hook recalled in his autobiography, Out of Step,
that getting Einstein to criticize the Soviet Union was like pulling
teeth.
You mean Einstein, the image of the man detached from day to day
life while imagining the complex universe, is supposed to have a
good idea of what Stalin was doing in the 1930's?
Stalin spent a good deal of time and effort keeping the bad news
quiet, helped by wishful thinking in other countries given the
way capitalism appeared to be failing in the depression.
Roosevelt's eulogists likewise avoid the subject of Stalin, for whom
FDR had the highest regard, calling him "a Christian gentleman"
during the Yalta conference. He had befriended Stalin from the first
year of his administration, when he extended diplomatic recognition to
the murderous pariah state.
FDR came to power in 1932, Stalin's mass murders were in the future.
Time and again he chose to help "Uncle
Joe" when he didn't have to, appeasing him from a position of
strength.
The Uncle Joe tag is a WWII name. And until the western allies
were safely ashore in France in 1944 the USSR was very important.
Even Neville Chamberlain never idealized Hitler as "Uncle
Adolf."
However Chamberlain was willing to take Hitler at his word until
early 1939. FDR took Stalin at his word until 1945. The evidence
against Hitler was the invasion of the rest of Czechoslovakia, that
against Stalin was the repression in eastern Europe in 1945.
Remember the rules were you could behave more badly towards
your own citizens than to foreigners.
When FDR asked Pope Pius XII to condemn Hitler, Pius sent
back word that if he did so he would also have to condemn Stalin;
Roosevelt withdrew the request.
So a date can be given for this?
As for Churchill, we are assured that he had no illusions about Stalin,
which only makes his wartime indulgence of the tyrant harder to excuse.
A major ally from June 1941, the one that was doing the bulk of the
fighting until 1943 and was really needed until the allies were safely
ashore in France. No wonder Churchill helped Stalin.
Apparently what the Nazis were doing at the time is irrelevant.
His 1946 complaint (in a famous speech in Fulton, Missouri) about the
"Iron Curtain" falling on Eastern Europe after World War II is
treated as prophetic, when it was just the opposite: a totally
hypocritical gesture.
Check out Churchill's 1941 quote,
"if Hitler were to invade Hell, I would at least make a favourable reference
to the Devil in the House of Commons!"
Churchill understood the Nazis were the bigger menace at the time.
Anyone who didn't know what to expect of Stalin
by 1946 - or who could believe his guarantees at Yalta in 1945 -
was a moron. And Churchill was no moron, only a cynic feigning alarm at
the obvious.
Until the Nazi-Soviet pact in 1939 Stalin had stayed within the USSR
borders as they were defined in the 1920's despite the attacks by
Japan.
Then came the advances, and the post war empire in eastern Europe.
Stalin had shown his true colors long before Roosevelt and Churchill
took on as their ally the brave, bluff "Uncle Joe." Had they never
heard of the forced famine of Ukraine, the NKVD mass arrests, the Gulag
camps, the purges and show trials, the murder of Trotsky, the invasions
of Poland (with the Katyn Forest massacre of 15,000 Polish officers),
Finland, Estonia, Latvia, and Lithuania?
The famines were in the realm of possibility, the hard information was
kept from the west. The USSR was known to be a police state, the
Gulags were a closely guarded secret, the purges and show trials
were known, Trotsky was murdered in August 1940, the Katyn Wood
massacre came to light in April 1943 but the western allies could not
examine the bodies, the USSR invaded the final set of countries
mentioned above in 1939 and 1940. The list ignores the taking of
territory from Romania.
Then the Germans invaded the USSR in mid 1941.
All these things, and more,
revealed not only the brutality of Stalin but the logic of Communism
itself, which had begun its reign in Russia with the mass murder of
Orthodox priests under Lenin. Communism was in essence a reversion to
the principles of primitive warfare, directed not only against external
enemies but against its own subjects if they resisted (or were even
suspected of a disposition to resist) its tyranny.
Lets see now, the night of the long knives, the purges, the show trials
the concentration camps, the police state of Nazi Germany. I suggest
the Nazis were the ones for "primitive warfare", directed against its
own people and others.
The world had to choose between the three systems in the 1940's. The
communists and capitalists generally figured if any two fought they
would really help the third, but Hitler simply decided war was good and
he would always win.
The alliance with the Soviet Union is a permanent bloodstain on the
Western democracies.
So I presume the same applies to Nazi Germany in its alliance?
The allies had to choose to support the USSR to defeat Nazi Germany.
It was part of what F.J.P. Veale, a British
jurist, called the Allies' "advance to barbarism" in his
mercilessly trenchant book of that title. Long out of print, Advance to
Barbarism is now available only from the Institute for Historical
Review in Torrance, California.
Ah the main point of the article, an advertisement for a book.
The friends of Oswald Mosley web site proudly proclaim Veale as
"F.J.P. VEALE - Blackshirt Writer
F.J.P.Veale who died in 1976, was a prominent member of the
community in Brighton and also a well known member of the
Brighton Branch of British Union before the war. "
The book is both essential to read and
difficult to obtain. It's remarkable for the iron logic with which
Veale seizes on the damning casual admissions, and even the occasional
twinges of conscience, of the victors of World War II. (He finds such
twinges far more often in Churchill than in Roosevelt.)
Needless to say the book is not worth reading unless you prefer
your Nazis to be the good guys.
The exaltation of the three Stalin-lovers as the heroes of the century,
and saviors of civilization, is almost incomprehensible. It's as if
we were asked to believe that three of the greatest men of the Middle
Ages - say, Innocent III, Dante, and St. Francis of Assisi had been
friends and admirers of Genghis Khan.
Yes I see now, instead of making decision on someone's worth
according to all of what they did nor did not do, one claimed
trait above all means they must be condemned.
The truth is that the Allied cause was as unholy as Hitler's. Veale
ranks the Allies' policies of terror-bombing and "war-crimes"
trials with Hitler's genocide as the distinguishing features of the
"retrograde movement of civilization" that culminated in World War
II.
The Nazis wanted to set up a master race idea, with everyone else
as inferior, with those classified as really inferior killed.
So yes, the attempts to pretend the Nazis did no war crimes or only
what others did.
Like the September 1939 bombings of Warsaw, including men literally
shovelling incendiaries out of the Ju52 cargo doors. The bombing
of Rotterdam, no mention of classifying them as terror bombings.
The readiness with which Churchill and Roosevelt embraced Stalin as
an ally after Hitler attacked Russia in 1941 was only one signal of the
new morality of warfare they were prepared to adopt; they so far
forgave Stalin's part in the rape of Poland that began the war in
1939 as to entrust him, at the war's end in 1945, with control of
Poland.
I have yet to see anyone come up with a way of forcing Stalin out
of Poland in 1945 without effectively continuing WWII. By the way
the food situation around the world was so bad expect major European
famines if the war had continued into 1946.
War has always been terrible, of course, and mass extermination was a
regular occurrence until the development of what may be called, without
irony, the rules of "civilized warfare" late in the seventeenth
century.
Really, how about the religious wars, where it was convert or die.
The Mongol's strategy?
The Aztec's treatment of conquered nations?
At that time Europe's rulers, exhausted by bloody combat,
came to agree on certain conventions: combat should be confined to
soldiers in uniform; civilians and their property should be left alone;
prisoners should be treated humanely; and defeated powers should be
spared total devastation and indignity.
This would be a real shock to the civilians caught up in the
conflicts and the way transport was so bad armies were compelled
to live off the land they traversed.
Try something like "The Pursuit of Power" by McNeill, also
"The Rise of the West". Add Supplying War by Van Crevald.
In effect we are first being presented with an idealised version of
European Warfare. The King's Sport, complete with rules and
presumably scores.
These rules held until (and to
some extent even after) World War I, replacing the logic of
annihilation that governed primitive or "primary warfare" - the
unrestricted slaughter common between warring societies with no
civilized principles in common.
The Germans practiced scorched earth in France in WWI for example,
including destroying medieval castles.
Ah yes, primitive like Shaka Zulu who conquered to integrate the tribes
into his empire?
There are wars of conquest and wars to settle balance of power.
For more than two centuries after the age of Louis XIV, European
civilians were so unmolested that they often barely realized that their
rulers were at war, and ordinary travel and commerce between countries
usually continued during hostilities. The courtliness between rulers
and officers of opposing armies, like the jovial fraternization between
common soldiers as soon as peace was restored, is often hard to believe
now. A sort of golden rule prevailed; each victor realized that he
might be tomorrow's loser, so everyone tried to avoid leaving a
legacy of bitterness by treating the vanquished reasonably and often
generously. Peace treaties politely avoided any tone of blame or
recrimination.
Sort of sounds like the sports scores. Of course the way territory
changed ownership, the indemnities paid and so on are ignored.
Try looking at how Spain fared in the Napoleonic wars.
There were exceptions, of course. Napoleon's mass armies changed the
character of war for a while;
So is the claim the armies became smaller as the 19th century went on?
Lincoln's policy of waging war on
civilian areas shocked European observers.
Some observers were shocked by the US Civil War, not all.
Lincoln justified this on
grounds that he was dealing not with a traditional war, but with a
rebellion, in which the entire enemy population might be treated as
criminals and traitors. The idealizers of Lincoln have blamed his
policy on the generals who merely carried it out, especially Sherman
and Sheridan. Of course even Lincoln was unable to apply this view
consistently; to do so would have meant executing nearly every
Southerner, soldier or civilian. But Lee's gallantry was more typical
of the code of the professional man of arms. Veale notes that the South
was more imbued with European culture, including military culture, than
the North.
Ah yes, the ideals fiction, and ignoring what happened to the lands
fought over. The Confederates destroyed "things" like the union.
And yes, European culture good, US culture bad.
According to Veale, World War I was not truly a world war, but only the
last and worst of Europe's civil wars.
Europe's reach meant it dragged most of the world into war.
There were serious lapses from
the code of civilized warfare: the British naval blockade of Europe
caused mass starvation, for example, and Allied propaganda diabolized
the Kaiser and the "Huns" with wild atrocity stories of bayoneted
babies.
Ah yes, the lapses are all supposed to be allied. No mention of
German scorched earth? How about sending Lenin to Russia
and helping him gain power?
Read the German propaganda by the way?
But in the end, as usual, the parties convened after the war to
make a settlement among themselves, although, for the first time, a
non-European power had a say: the United States, led by the blundering
Woodrow Wilson.
Now of course, since Veale is European writer we need an outside
bad guy.
But in contrast to earlier peace settlements, Germany was unfairly
blamed and cruelly looted, leaving Germans poor and starving.
Of course the cost to France from the fighting, which had destroyed
large sections of France. Note by the way the Germans systematically
looted the parts of France they controlled, Something like a million
sheep and cattle were sent to Germany for example.
Also you need to read the German diplomatic messages from 1914,
urging Austria-Hungary on rather than restraining it.
The 1919 peace treaty was really a traditional document, with its
indemnities, and the agreements on the new borders. The trouble
was the cost of the war had been too great to expect effective
restitution.
I like the idea Germany was cruelly looted, does it apply to
France, Belgium, Russia etc during the war?
The
bitter fruit of German "war guilt" set the stage for a far worse
war, which would result in a settlement dictated, for the first time in
European history, by non-European powers: the United States and the
Soviet Union.
I see no mention of a main German idea, the betrayal from within.
Which worked to discredit the German government in the 1920's.
And yes once again we have the poor Germans, victims of outside
forces, sleepwalking into another war.
Shortly after World War I British military planners, contemplating war
with France at the time, began to savor the possibilities of aerial
warfare against civilian targets.
You know at some stage the Zeppelin and Gotha bomber attacks on
London in WWI are going to be mentioned.
By 1936, well before World War II,
the British started preparing for an aerial war - a total break with
the principles of civilized warfare.
What a joke. The Luftwaffe outnumbered the RAF and French
Air Force combined in the 1938/39 time frame.
The German 4 engined bomber designs flew first, but were
underpowered and the 2 engined designs were preferred as
they were also cheaper. Note at this stage the RAF considered
the 2 engined designs as heavy bombers.
When the war came, they soon put
this new idea into effect, catching the Germans unprepared.
The RAF began bombing mainland Germany in May 1940, with
military targets as the claimed aiming points.
There were a number of RAF raids on German ports and fleet
units in 1939. Similar to the German raids on Scapa Flow and
other RN bases.
Such
British military authorities as J.M. Spaight and Arthur "Bomber"
Harris, looking back triumphantly at the success of terror-bombing,
later wrote books gloating that the Germans had been caught flatfooted!
Ah I see, the allies terror bomb, no attempt to define it nor explain
how this is different to say the Luftwaffe's bombing raids and so on.
Plus the idea the allies went first.
Instead of adapting to the new technology of war, the Germans had
continued to regard aerial bombing as mere tactical support for ground
troops and the bomber as a form of airborne combat artillery; and
because they didn't perceive the possibility of "strategic"
bombing against the population and resources of an enemy country, the
Luftwaffe had no heavy bombers with which to match the destructive fury
of the Royal Air Force even for the purpose of retaliating against RAF
strikes on German cities.
What a joke. The Luftwaffe bomber force outnumbered the RAF
bomber force by around 2 to 1 in 1939 and that is counting the
Bristol Blenheim but excluding the Fairy Battle and Ju87.
You also might check out something called the Battle of Britain and
the Blitz. It took until the end of 1942 for the RAF bomb tonnage
officially dropped on Germany to equal the bomb tonnage the Luftwaffe
had dropped on Britain.
The first RAF heavy bombers, that is the wartime designation of
the 4 engined types and the Manchester, were accepted in May
1940, with 14 accepted by the end of October and 41 by the end
of the year.
They were first used on 10 February 1941 (Stirling) 24 February
(Manchester) and 10 March (Halifax)
Yet the boasts of men like Spaight and Harris
didn't affect the popular view (and official story) that the Germans
had originated the atrocity of bombing cities.
You know, check out London in WWI, Warsaw in 1939 and Rotterdam
in May 1940. For that matter try the Blitz on Britain in 1940/41.
Official American propaganda likewise used the Japanese bombing of
Chinese cities as a justification for fighting Japan, until the United
States itself adopted the policy of bombing Japanese and German cities.
The US adopted a policy of bombing Japanese cities, it never
officially adopted such a policy against German ones but bombing
through clouds meant it was done in practice.
Since this policy was accepted as legitimate when employed against
diabolical enemies, it's now difficult for most people to recall the
nauseous horror that bombing cities used to inspire.
So it is hardly surprising the US thought it was a bad idea pre WWII,
especially when the Chinese cities were often undefended.
The Japanese clearly thought it was a good idea, they did it to
China throughout the 1930's.
As Veale says, we
have all become inured not only to atrocities in a holy cause but to
the sort of "doublethink' that reasons: "We must be willing to
slaughter innocent people in order to defeat our monstrous enemies, who
slaughter innocent people."
Try it is quite simple, in total war almost everyone contributes to the
war effort. Note by the way Arthur Harris was against killing children
and the elderly, they were a drain on the economy.
The test came when, in 1940, Churchill's War Cabinet (in what Spaight
would later praise as a "splendid decision") secretly adopted the
policy of striking industrial areas of Germany outside the combat zone,
vastly broadening the definition of military objectives and ensuring
many civilian casualties.
How about this, it is only in 1940 someone comes up with strategic
bombing.
Going to look at the Luftwaffe doctrine from 1936? You will find
strategic bombing, as you will in RAF documents.
Two years later this policy was expanded
under the Lindemann Plan to deliberately targeting the most thickly
populated areas of industrial cities - working-class neighborhoods
near factories, where workers and their families lived in crowded
tenements. Attacks on civilians were actually given priority over
attacks on factories.
No, the RAF discovered they needed to bomb the centre of a city
because navigation and target finding was so bad that was the
way to ensure the most bombs hit something the Germans were
using. They also worked on better aids to locating targets.
By the way in 1942 check out the Baedeker raids on England,
against cultural towns and areas.
Men, women, and children alike became "military
objectives"; undefended cities like Hamburg and Dresden became
furnaces in which people flung themselves into rivers to escape the
terrific heat; old houses, churches, and other buildings that had
survived from the Middle Ages were reduced to rubble by the latest
methods, and oldest principles, of warfare. Even the confines of zoos
were destroyed, and frantic wild animals roamed the streets. Burial of
all the dead being impossible, funeral pyres disposed of bodies for
weeks after the air raids.
So Hamburg was undefended? So all the 17 RAF bombers lost on
the 1943 raid that caused the firestorm just crashed, despite the
Luftwaffe flak and nightfighter kill claims? Similar for the 9 RAF
bombers lost on he Dresden raid?
Meanwhile, Churchill and his cronies lied to Parliament, denying that
they were practicing "indiscriminate bombing." In one sense the
denials were true. The bombing was anything but indiscriminate, since
killing and terrorizing civilians was not a side effect of error or
carelessness but the fully conscious purpose of the Lindemann Plan.
No, the plan was to dehouse the civilians, they knew the civilians
could take shelter or move outside the cities.
The
full truth emerged only long after the war, in the early 1960s.
Not quite, try the 1940's and Veale needed to write fiction for his account.
But by
then it all seemed ancient history to most people, few cared much about
the truth, and the war's mythology was too firmly established to be
shaken. Veale had already gathered the essence of the story before all
the details were released, but even now his work is little known and
the official wartime story is still vaguely accepted as essentially
true.
Veale is writing fiction.
At the time it was happening, the British public thought German charges
of deliberate bombing of civilians were the products of Joseph
Goebbels's propaganda machine.
The reality was any WWII bombing raid on a target in a city was
near certainly going to hit the surrounding areas.
And when the Germans retaliated with
the infamous Blitz against British cities, as Churchill foresaw, the
Englishman in the street was outraged at Germany's hideous violation
of civilized rules of warfare, never dreaming that his own government
had purposely provoked it.
My but we have such fiction. What happened to the Luftwaffe night air
raids in May 1940, like the bombs near Canterbury on 10 May? The
attack on Middlesborough on 24 May? The nightly bombing of targets
in cities starting on 18 June?
The first similar RAF raid was on Monchengladbach on 11 May, with
the first raid on he Ruhr area on 15 May.
Strange as it seems most bombers on both sides were flying to support
the fighting on the ground in May and June 1940.
Hitler himself, according to his biographer John Toland, was so shocked
by the British bombing of cities that he at first excused it as a
mistake, due to the inexperience of British bomber pilots.
Ah yes the great selective quote, any chance for a date and
context? Just ignore what the Germans had already been doing.
He couldn't believe the British were capable of such savagery.
Warsaw in particular, Rotterdam and the threats made against other
Dutch cities if they did not surrender.
It was three months before the Germans responded in kind.
What a joke, the Germans were doing night raids over England in
May and June 1940. They stepped it up in July, flying around
100 sorties a week. Then 500 to a thousand sorties a week in August.
Even so, as Spaight
later admitted: "Hitler assuredly did not want the mutual bombing to
go on."
Ah yes, the great Hitler though idea. Just ignore the Blitz and the
further bombings of England.
Franklin Roosevelt and the Americans were quite willing to join in the
new spirit of total war.
Here come the bad guys again.
Roosevelt, an acolyte of Wilson, had always
yearned for war with Germany and the chance to build an American global
empire; the American people had been roused to fury and race-hatred by
the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor, likewise never suspecting that it
had been in any way provoked. "Sneaky Japs" seemed a sufficient
explanation and no punishment seemed excessive.
FDR realised Nazi Germany needed to be stopped, not Germany, but
Nazi Germany.
FDR was not into US global empires, Europe gifted the US global power
by so much warring. One of the reasons FDR was so interested in the
USSR was he wanted to see the British Empire broken up.
And the Japanese said to the US help us conquer China, and decided to
take up an or else option when the US said no.
A new book, Day of Deceit, by Robert B. Stinnett, argues that Roosevelt
actually knew the attack was coming - but excuses him anyway!
The book is largely fiction, a good exercise is to find a document
referenced in a footnote that actually supports the claims in the
text.
The author actually admits he does not know if the allies read the
Japanese messages he says they needed to read.
After
all, "the Pearl Harbor attack was, from the White House perspective,
something that had to be endured in order to stop a greater evil -
the Nazi invaders in Europe who had begun the Holocaust and were poised
to invade England."
Yes folks, when wanting to fight the Nazis start a war against Japan.
Real logical.
These words show how thoroughly the democracies
still accept the notion that the end - stopping Hitler (the "sneaky
Japs" have receded from the picture) - justified any and every
means, including massive deception of the American public.
Ah yes, the attempt to push the allies were amoral, willing to
do anything.
As of 1941,
of course, Hitler had not yet "begun the Holocaust"; besides, his
persecution of Jews played no part in Roosevelt's callous
calculations.
You really should check out the death squads in Poland in 1939 and
the opening dates of the various extermination camps.
Goaded by Einstein and others, Roosevelt also launched the quest for
the ultimate bomb, one that would incinerate whole cities in a flash.
How about advised by scientists that it was possible and Hitler could
end up with it. Japan had some good physicists as well. Fortunately
the Nazis expelled most of theirs.
This final nail in the coffin of civilized warfare was originally
intended for German cities;
I like the idea we can have civilised warfare.
one wonders whether Americans might feel
somewhat more rueful about it today if it had been dropped on Berlin
and Munich rather than Hiroshima and Nagasaki. The use of this bomb -
more truly Roosevelt's bomb than Harry Truman's - stands as the
most inhuman act of the whole war, a fact that Allied harping on Nazi
"war crimes" has successfully diverted most people from realizing.
Let's see now.
Over the course of the war with Japan China had around 100,000 dead
per month or higher on average. In 1945 there was famine in Indo-China
and it was going the same way in Malaya at least. Japanese hardliners
were intending to kill allied prisoners and even allow Japanese useless
mouths to stave. With around 72 million people in Japan 1% of the
population starving would be many more than the bombings killed.
The Japanese government was deadlocked before and after the atomic
bombings and the Soviet declaration of war. The Emperor intervened
and cited the bombings as his reason.
No American president has used power as ruthlessly as Roosevelt.
What happened to Lincoln? What about Vietnam?
His
liberal admirers are somewhat embarrassed by his order to round up U.S.
citizens of Japanese extraction - a brazen violation of their
constitutional rights - but it was of a piece with his constant use
of federal agencies to punish, smear, or disable anyone he deemed an
enemy.
It should be pointed out anti Japanese ideas predated FDR and
Washington was not alone in wanting the internments.
And of course the usual ideas about underhand tactics.
The notion that FDR was somehow on the side of civil liberties
is hard to fathom. His critics correctly sized him up as a dictator at
heart. His affinity with Stalin was genuine. Both were exemplars of the
total state and total war.
Ah yes, FDR the democrat, is now turned into a dictator. And of
course his actions were within the US democratic system, Stalin's
were of dictator for life.
So now we have the fictional FDR all painted up and ready to go.
In another breach of the rules of civilized warfare, Roosevelt and
Churchill insisted on unconditional surrender by the Axis powers,
thereby prolonging the war and immensely intensifying its bitterness.
They made it clear that there would be no mercy for the losers.
In another breach of civilised warfare the German government spread
the word Germany had not lost WWI but had been betrayed from
within. Thereby helping to enable Germany removing its democratic
government in the 1930's and move to total war in WWII.
The trade off was quite clear, make sure the winner is well known so
a repeat war in 20 years time is less likely.
As the war drew to a close, Veale notes, Roosevelt and Churchill were
eager to placate Stalin, who at the 1943 Tehran conference had urged
that 50,000 German officials be dispatched a la Katyn Forest. This was
a little more than the democratic leaders figured their people could
stomach, so they proposed an alternative Stalinist method: postwar sham
trials, observing the superficial forms of judicial process. Stalin,
sighing at this bourgeois sentimentalism, for once yielded. In fact he
eventually staged thousands of war-crimes "trials" of his own, in
which there were, of course, no acquittals to speak of.
Yes the advertising starts, apparently the post war trials are all sham.
When the trials began at Nuremberg, there were a few irregularities.
The accusers (including Soviet "judges" with long experience in
Stalinist jurisprudence) doubled as jurors; the court was never
impartial; the accused were judged guilty before the proceedings began.
So there were juries? So the acquittals at Nuremburg can be explained?
The rules of evidence sharply limited the defense; the defendants were
not permitted to argue that the Allies had committed the same acts they
were being accused of.
You mean like Doenitz on unrestricted submarine warfare, seen the
letter from Admiral Nimitz?
Even at that, the Germans were never tried for bombing civilian areas,
because the Allies didn't want to risk calling attention to the fact
that they themselves had initiated this particular "crime against
humanity."
Except the Germans had initiated the bombings. And there was
one prosecution, for the Luftwaffe bombing of Belgrade after it
was declared an open city.
The novel charge of "waging a war of aggression" was
never defined, because no definition could be found that would cover
the German invasion of Poland without also covering Soviet invasions of
Poland and several other countries to boot.
The Germans had signed the Kellog Brand pact outlawing it.
Such treatment of prisoners of war was also a novel departure from the
old rules, which the Allies justified by arbitrarily declaring the
captured German military officers to be civilians.
No.
This made them
eligible to be tried as criminals under the inchoate new rules.
No, military men can be charged with crimes.
The
purpose of the trials was not to do justice or to determine guilt
according to normal standards of law (which forbid ex post facto
trials), but to give the Allies a propaganda victory on top of their
military triumph.
Ex post facto trials, are the trials supposed to happen before hand?
The western allies tried a large number of Germans for what they
did in WWII. Most were guilty of the crimes they were charged with.
In essence, the Germans were convicted of losing the war.
Amazingly millions of deaths in the extermination system go away, as
does the systematic looting of Europe and scorched earth.
Germany charged the countries it occupied a fee for doing so, paid
in part with food, which Holland and Belgium in particular had trouble
with. Heard about the Greek famine? When the US army tried to recruit
local labour in France in 1944 it found the potential workers were
hampered by malnutrition.
The only real
"war crime," as Veale points out, was being defeated.
Yes the Nazis go away in this fictional Germany.
The honorable
German admiral Erich Raeder, for example, was convicted for invading
Norway, though he had merely beaten the British to the punch on the eve
of their own planned invasion.
The short answer is no, the British had troops ready to go if Norway
was invaded and the Norwegian government asked for help.
The RN laid mines in Norwegian waters just before the German
invasion, which of course risked dragging Norway into the war.
Raeder is also on record as stating he did not think the British were
going to invade but the German invasion should go ahead.
The whole thing was a shameless break
with precedent, but it set its own precedents for the pursuit of aging
"war criminals" that still continues.
Ah yes, we should not punish the guilty if it requires what, new law?
When similar trials were held
in Tokyo two years later, an Indian jurist who participated decried the
proceedings: "The farce of a trial of vanquished leaders by the
victors was itself an offense against humanity."
Another of those no names quotes.
Would it be Radhabinod Pal, who argued Japan was innocent?
No Western jurist
had found the courage to say as much at Nuremberg.
Simply put no western jurist has been reading the pro Nazi fiction
about the trials.
Under the circumstances, it's easy to understand why some students of
the war even doubt that Hitler's persecution of Jews, revolting as it
was, amounted to a "Holocaust" or extermination program.
Having created a fictional allies we move onto fictional Nazis.
It may
have happened as the official story has it, and Veale, who questions
most of the Allied claims, expresses no doubt of it; but if so, it's
about the only thing the Allies told the truth about.
Ah yes, do not deny the claims outright but say they are from the
lips of those who lie.
At any rate, the
story of the Holocaust is suspiciously convenient for those who were
willing to commit such horrors that only something like an enormous
program of mass murder could divert attention from their own guilt.
Now more smearing. Just ignore all the evidence of Nazi crimes.
With all due respect for those who really suffered at Hitler's hands,
some skepticism is in order.
A life long Fascist making the claims requires scepticism.
Whatever the truth, Hitler is not the only
one who deserves lasting infamy. So do several Persons of the Century.
Basically write a fictional account of the people involved to do this.
Veale deals lightly with the postwar mass deportation of large
populations, including the "repatriation" of millions to the Soviet
Union (and certain death) during what was later known as Operation
Keelhaul.
The Soviets asked for their citizens back and they were largely sent
back. Many were killed after return.
At the time when Veale wrote, shortly after the war, little
had been published about these final Allied favors to Uncle Joe.
As opposed to for example the allies not wanting to handle those
Soviet troops that had changed sides in WWII and fought for the
Germans.
Since
then, James Bacque and other historians have concluded that the Allies
also starved millions of Germans after the war, a policy that was
interrupted only by the breach between the democracies and the Soviet
Union; luckily for the surviving Germans, the Cold War necessitated a
new alliance with what was left of Germany.
It would be interesting to see who the "other historians" are. Bacque
wrote two books that proved he could not count. In the second, a
double or nothing attempt he decided to claim there was a German
famine in the post war period. A famine the French, Swiss, Dutch,
Danes, Belgians Austrians, Czechs, Poles, Americans, British, Russians
and Germans all missed until the arrival of the "lone researcher"
(trademark).
Since the Cold War began, the democracies have repudiated Stalin and
Communism.
And pre WWI, see the interventions in 1919.
But that does nothing to remove the great bloodstain of
World War II, still liberalism's holy war.
So Hitler gets the bad press as well for his alliance and division of
eastern Europe with Stalin?
The democracies were
Stalin's eager partners in atrocity and mendacity, and they committed
plenty of crimes of their own that can't be blamed on Uncle Joe.
The short answer here is no.
And for what it's worth, the Allied atrocities seem to have failed on
their own terms. Most analysts agree that they intensified the war
without really affecting the outcome.
Ah yes firstly the fiction about allied atrocities, then the anonymous
most analysts, without names or reasons.
Veale argues that the diversion
of RAF bombers to Germany may even have changed the outcome of the
Battle of France in 1940, when one defeat might have toppled Hitler and
cut the war short.
Wow, this is a new one, 3,968 long tons of bombs would have stopped
the Panzer divisions in 1940?
Do tell, how?
And by the way that is all bombs dropped and most was devoted to
communications targets to stop the Panzers, only a minority was
devoted to "strategic" bombing of Germany.
In June 1944 the allies dropped around 100,000 tons of bombs on France.
In the end the victors succeeded chiefly in
hardening their own consciences, while giving Stalin the spoils.
Still waiting for an explanation of how the allies could keep
Stalin out of eastern Europe.
Some sort of pragmatic defense of the war might have been made on the
frank grounds of power: Churchill and the British wanted to oppose
German power, which threatened their own global empire (while speaking
frankly of "the British Empire" in private, for propaganda purposes
Churchill called his cause "democracy" in public); Roosevelt wanted
also to stop the Japanese, those insolent yellow dwarfs (as Veale
caustically puts it) who dared to challenge the white man's rule in
the Far East.
Amazingly in the above Hitler's rearmament goes missing.
As does the fact Japan was busily massacring Chinese
But Roosevelt and Churchill chose to wage the war as a Manichaean
crusade against evil, while cutting their cynical deal with the devil
in the Kremlin (not to mention the one in hell).
Yes the Nazi crimes go missing. As do the Japanese ones.
The Thai Burma railway is largely remembered in the west for the
allied PoW deaths but more Asians died.
Thai Burma railway figures, 46,000 POW of which 1 in 3 died,
around 75,000 Burmese and 75,000 Malay labourers, 3 out of 7
Burmese and 1 out of 2 Malays died. The Thai Burma railway was
415 km long, meaning one labourer died for roughly each 5 metres
of track.
Their partnership with
Uncle Joe, their resort to aerial mass murder, and their participation
in postwar enormities destroyed any moral claim they made for the war.
Yes folks, just ignore the Nazi extermination system.
Sooner or later the accepted view of this heroic epic is going to have
to be drastically revised, as Veale perceived immediately after the war
ended.
Those how want a second Hitler really need a history rewrite.
The Allied crimes have never been acknowledged, except as wartime
necessities justified by noble ends;
The western allied crimes have largely been invented
and the Allied criminals have
never been brought to the dock.
Not surprising.
Instead, they are still honored as
heroes of the twentieth century.
Not surprising.
(Even the memory of the odious
"Bomber" Harris - long ostracized with distaste and moral
embarrassment by the British Establishment for his rather unseemly
enthusiasm for killing civilians - was recently honored by the
erection of a statue in London.)
The yes to the statue, the no to enthusiasm for killing civilians.
And the entire American establishment
still has a stake in the mythology of World War II; its legitimacy
rests largely on its boast that it saved the world from Hitler.
Which rather ignores the help from others and in any case the
mythology being pushed here is fictional.
It can
afford neither to disown its alliance with Stalin nor to face the
implications of its having befriended him.
Strange it does not do so.
It still condemns the
"isolationists" who knew exactly what Stalin was a decade before
Churchill acknowledged it at Fulton.
Yes folks, Stalin is bad, therefore ignore Hitler, who was worse, he
killed people at a greater rate.
Geoffrey Sinclair
Remove the nb for email.
.
|
|
|
|
| User: "Mark K. Bilbo" |
|
| Title: Re: The Alliance With Stalin Is A Permanent Stain On The Western Democracies |
05 May 2006 09:14:35 PM |
|
|
Previously, on alt.atheism, Sound of Trumpet in episode
<1146860009.524658.25060@y43g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>...
(Reprinted from SOBRAN'S, April 2000, pages 2-6)
Yeh but, they got permission from the copyright holder.
Did you?
--
Mark K. Bilbo
--------------------------------------------------
"As hip as it is for outsiders to blame New Orleans
for everything bad that happened during and after
Hurricane Katrina, the truth is that the people
who lived here were much more prepared for a big
storm than the federal government that promised
us flood protection." [Jarvis DeBerry]
http://makeashorterlink.com/?V180525DC
"Everything New Orleans"
http://www.nola.com
.
|
|
|
|
| User: "mowhak" |
|
| Title: Re: The Alliance With Stalin Is A Permanent Stain On The Western Democracies |
06 May 2006 06:00:44 PM |
|
|
Sound of Trumpet schrieb:
http://www.sobran.com/friends.shtml
The Friends of Uncle Joe
(Reprinted from SOBRAN'S, April 2000, pages 2-6)
The year 2000 has brought a predictable flood of retrospection, with
several equally predictable nominees for Man (or rather "Person")
of the Century. These include Albert Einstein (chosen by Time), Winston
Churchill (the choice of The Weekly Standard), and Franklin D.
Roosevelt (the choice of several, including Arthur Schlesinger Jr. in
the New York Daily News).
The gushing encomia deal very lightly, as one might also have
predicted, with one fact common to all three: their fondness for Joseph
Stalin, perhaps the Mass Murderer of the Millennium.
-I still wait for the day when all you o-so-critical accusers of
Stalin, whom you all mysteriously seem to mistake for Socialism's only
spokesperson, will attack all your Capitalist leaders for the failures
of Capitalism with the same rigidity.
I predict this will never happen, as those capitalist leaders somehow
manage to just never represent "true Capitalism".
Sounds familiar?
mowhak
.
|
|
|
| User: "James A. Donald" |
|
| Title: Re: The Alliance With Stalin Is A Permanent Stain On The Western Democracies |
07 May 2006 07:04:35 AM |
|
|
--
On 6 May 2006 16:00:44 -0700, "mowhak"
<mowhak@my-deja.com> wrote:
-I still wait for the day when all you o-so-critical
accusers of Stalin, whom you all mysteriously seem to
mistake for Socialism's only spokesperson, will attack
all your Capitalist leaders for the failures of
Capitalism with the same rigidity.
What failures of capitalism? Communism has produced
poverty and terror, capitalism wealth and freedom.
--digsig
James A. Donald
6YeGpsZR+nOTh/cGwvITnSR3TdzclVpR0+pr3YYQdkG
W3WiZNwgev5Rku8SryWGI74kaebs+EPmDwpcyFQZ
4ygUTnp7OXPP6BG0OeBMZnq2pJyzbpc/RbqlyjdsH
.
|
|
|
| User: "kathryn" |
|
| Title: Re: The Alliance With Stalin Is A Permanent Stain On The Western Democracies |
07 May 2006 08:55:37 AM |
|
|
"James A. Donald" <jamesd@echeque.com> wrote in message
news:ogor52pddbps7ttgaq6mvu7g7npambrtod@4ax.com...
--
On 6 May 2006 16:00:44 -0700, "mowhak"
<mowhak@my-deja.com> wrote:
-I still wait for the day when all you o-so-critical
accusers of Stalin, whom you all mysteriously seem to
mistake for Socialism's only spokesperson, will attack
all your Capitalist leaders for the failures of
Capitalism with the same rigidity.
What failures of capitalism? Communism has produced
poverty and terror, capitalism wealth and freedom.
--digsig
James A. Donald
where the rich get richer and the poor get poorer
.
|
|
|
| User: "James A. Donald" |
|
| Title: Re: The Alliance With Stalin Is A Permanent Stain On The Western Democracies |
08 May 2006 12:35:51 AM |
|
|
--
"James A. Donald"
What failures of capitalism? Communism has produced
poverty and terror, capitalism wealth and freedom.
"kathryn"
where the rich get richer and the poor get poorer
You guys have been singing that song since Marx claimed
the industrial revolution was making the poor poorer,
but manifestly the poor have been getting richer.
--digsig
James A. Donald
6YeGpsZR+nOTh/cGwvITnSR3TdzclVpR0+pr3YYQdkG
r25796Ryk5r30D23FbnN7QQJvoSIs3HDuiBzi3Ki
4QWh8XREYIFlGhaOrISH4U1G93Hk8yT50KWpWYdAP
.
|
|
|
|
| User: "brique" |
|
| Title: Re: The Alliance With Stalin Is A Permanent Stain On The Western Democracies |
07 May 2006 12:14:17 PM |
|
|
kathryn <nospam@here.com> wrote in message
news:pt6dnZGsHMfGYcDZRVnyjw@bt.com...
"James A. Donald" <jamesd@echeque.com> wrote in message
news:ogor52pddbps7ttgaq6mvu7g7npambrtod@4ax.com...
--
On 6 May 2006 16:00:44 -0700, "mowhak"
<mowhak@my-deja.com> wrote:
-I still wait for the day when all you o-so-critical
accusers of Stalin, whom you all mysteriously seem to
mistake for Socialism's only spokesperson, will attack
all your Capitalist leaders for the failures of
Capitalism with the same rigidity.
What failures of capitalism? Communism has produced
poverty and terror, capitalism wealth and freedom.
--digsig
James A. Donald
where the rich get richer and the poor get poorer
But that's not a failure of capitalism.... it's how it is supposed to work.
Same with starving children (market self-correction), homelessness
(allocation of scarce resources to those best able to pay for them), low
wages for most (hey, it's all you are worth scum), high wages for some
(well, I am the boss). All in all, capitalism works very well at ensuring a
few do nicely whilst the rest put up with it under the illusion that if they
get lucky they will do well too.
.
|
|
|
| User: "Malcolm" |
|
| Title: Re: The Alliance With Stalin Is A Permanent Stain On The Western Democracies |
07 May 2006 05:24:29 PM |
|
|
"brique" <briquenoir@freeuk.c0m> wrote
But that's not a failure of capitalism.... it's how it is supposed to
work.
Same with starving children (market self-correction), homelessness
(allocation of scarce resources to those best able to pay for them), low
wages for most (hey, it's all you are worth scum), high wages for some
(well, I am the boss). All in all, capitalism works very well at ensuring
a
few do nicely whilst the rest put up with it under the illusion that if
they
get lucky they will do well too.
Actually very few people believe in capitalism.
There is no advanced country in the world where governments do not provide
free school education, for example. The economics simply don't work out -
most people with children cannot afford to pay private school fees.
However, as a general rule, markets work better than directed economies.
Markets force companies to be either as efficient as their competitors or
very good at selling. There are also fewer opportunities for corrupt
officials to take money out of the enterprises. Finally, most people act in
their own self-interest, most of the time. You can run an army with
volunteers, but not a biscuit factory.
The time capitalism becomes really dangerous is not when there are big
differences between the poor and the rich, but when the capital owners start
to read moral value into what they are doing. What is good for the business
becomes identified with what is morally good. Sometimes it is - most
businesses want crime and litter and drugs reduced in the places where they
operate - but more often it is not - the supermarket's attempts to present
themselves as environmentally responsible with the anti-GM policy is pure
cynical anti-science, for example.
There is no salvation outside the church, and capitalism can offer only
material wealth and relatively petty social status - the man who seeks glory
isn't going to find it in the dynamic and fast-moving world of retail
distribution management. The man who seeks heaven will only find it with us.
--
Buy my book 12 Common Atheist Arguments (refuted)
$1.25 download or $7.20 paper, available www.lulu.com/bgy1mm
.
|
|
|
| User: "James A. Donald" |
|
| Title: Re: The Alliance With Stalin Is A Permanent Stain On The Western Democracies |
08 May 2006 10:50:30 PM |
|
|
--
On Sun, 7 May 2006 23:24:29 +0100, "Malcolm"
Actually very few people believe in capitalism. There
is no advanced country in the world where governments
do not provide free school education, for example. The
economics simply don't work out - most people with
children cannot afford to pay private school fees.
No. The reason that governments intervene in education
is so that they can indoctrinate the children. If they
wanted to educate children, they could get the same
result considerably easier and cheaper with a simple
subsidy, with no strings, or few and simple strings.
Some governments, notably Hong Kong, do rely on a
subsidy, but if a school accepts the subsidy, it has to
accept some tight strings that many parents do not like.
--digsig
James A. Donald
6YeGpsZR+nOTh/cGwvITnSR3TdzclVpR0+pr3YYQdkG
yPvo/pkls6tsK78/MryUEuELwLoTmJCP+b8E90jO
4C4FHQkKRRmXZwDte5iWRwP/ETF5Jr89Rd/PB0oNp
.
|
|
|
|
|
| User: "Michael Price" |
|
| Title: Re: The Alliance With Stalin Is A Permanent Stain On The Western Democracies |
08 May 2006 12:57:39 AM |
|
|
brique wrote:
kathryn <nospam@here.com> wrote in message
news:pt6dnZGsHMfGYcDZRVnyjw@bt.com...
"James A. Donald" <jamesd@echeque.com> wrote in message
news:ogor52pddbps7ttgaq6mvu7g7npambrtod@4ax.com...
--
On 6 May 2006 16:00:44 -0700, "mowhak"
<mowhak@my-deja.com> wrote:
-I still wait for the day when all you o-so-critical
accusers of Stalin, whom you all mysteriously seem to
mistake for Socialism's only spokesperson, will attack
all your Capitalist leaders for the failures of
Capitalism with the same rigidity.
What failures of capitalism? Communism has produced
poverty and terror, capitalism wealth and freedom.
--digsig
James A. Donald
where the rich get richer and the poor get poorer
But that's not a failure of capitalism.... it's how it is supposed to work.
Well no, that's how mercantilism works. The purer the capitalism the
LESS
the rich get richer relative to the poor. There was no capitalist as
rich as Stalin
or Hitler.
Same with starving children (market self-correction),
It was when the free market reigned that people started to give a damn
about starving children and actually figured out how to feed them.
homelessness (allocation of scarce resources to those best able to pay
for them),
Homelessness is not caused by capitalism and is not common in
capitalist
places. To the extent that nominally capitalist countries have
homelessness
it is due to policies like rent control and the subsidisation of
irresponsibility.
low wages for most (hey, it's all you are worth scum),
Low compared to what? Capitalism gives the best wages.
high wages for some (well, I am the boss).
What higher than the Kings wages? Well actually yes, now that I
think of it,
but not for just saying "I'm the boss", for actually producing.
All in all, capitalism works very well at ensuring a
few do nicely whilst the rest put up with it under the illusion that if they
get lucky they will do well too.
Well no, it does crap at making sure a few do nicely. If the few got
together
and agreed to impose feudalism they'd probably do better.
.
|
|
|
|
| User: "" |
|
| Title: Re: The Alliance With Stalin Is A Permanent Stain On The Western Democracies |
07 May 2006 07:24:18 PM |
|
|
brique wrote:
kathryn <nospam@here.com> wrote in message
news:pt6dnZGsHMfGYcDZRVnyjw@bt.com...
"James A. Donald" <jamesd@echeque.com> wrote in message
news:ogor52pddbps7ttgaq6mvu7g7npambrtod@4ax.com...
--
On 6 May 2006 16:00:44 -0700, "mowhak"
<mowhak@my-deja.com> wrote:
-I still wait for the day when all you o-so-critical
accusers of Stalin, whom you all mysteriously seem to
mistake for Socialism's only spokesperson, will attack
all your Capitalist leaders for the failures of
Capitalism with the same rigidity.
What failures of capitalism? Communism has produced
poverty and terror, capitalism wealth and freedom.
--digsig
James A. Donald
where the rich get richer and the poor get poorer
But that's not a failure of capitalism.... it's how it is supposed to work.
Same with starving children (market self-correction),
Recall the multiple famines caused by socialism.
homelessness
(allocation of scarce resources to those best able to pay for them),
Caused by socialist intervention in the housing market.
low
wages for most (hey, it's all you are worth scum),
Wages so low that Mexicans from socialist workers' paradise Mexico are
sneaking into the capitalist dystopia US in order to earn wages kept
artificially low by the fear of deportation.
high wages for some
(well, I am the boss).
High wages for all who work (hence the immigration), very high wages
for some.
All in all, capitalism works very well at ensuring a
few do nicely whilst the rest put up with it under the illusion that if they
get lucky they will do well too.
.
|
|
|
|
| User: "" |
|
| Title: [Click the star to watch this topic] Sount of Trumpet says Hitler was Better (was: Re: The Alliance With Stalin Is A Permanent Stain On The Western Democracies) |
07 May 2006 12:30:45 PM |
|
|
brique wrote:
kathryn <nospam@here.com> wrote in message
news:pt6dnZGsHMfGYcDZRVnyjw@bt.com...
"James A. Donald" <jamesd@echeque.com> wrote in message
news:ogor52pddbps7ttgaq6mvu7g7npambrtod@4ax.com...
--
On 6 May 2006 16:00:44 -0700, "mowhak"
<mowhak@my-deja.com> wrote:
-I still wait for the day when all you o-so-critical
accusers of Stalin, whom you all mysteriously seem to
mistake for Socialism's only spokesperson, will attack
all your Capitalist leaders for the failures of
Capitalism with the same rigidity.
What failures of capitalism? Communism has produced
poverty and terror, capitalism wealth and freedom.
where the rich get richer and the poor get poorer
But that's not a failure of capitalism.... it's how it is supposed to work.
Same with starving children (market self-correction), homelessness
(allocation of scarce resources to those best able to pay for them), low
wages for most (hey, it's all you are worth scum), high wages for some
(well, I am the boss). All in all, capitalism works very well at ensuring a
few do nicely whilst the rest put up with it under the illusion that if they
get lucky they will do well too.
I recommend you give the Devil his due, or you may
get a worse devil.
.
|
|
|
| User: "brique" |
|
| Title: Re: [Click the star to watch this topic] Sount of Trumpet says Hitler was Better (was: Re: The Alliance With Stalin Is A Permanent Stain On The Western Democracies) |
07 May 2006 11:26:25 PM |
|
|
<anarcissie@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1147023045.366674.212260@e56g2000cwe.googlegroups.com...
brique wrote:
kathryn <nospam@here.com> wrote in message
news:pt6dnZGsHMfGYcDZRVnyjw@bt.com...
"James A. Donald" <jamesd@echeque.com> wrote in message
news:ogor52pddbps7ttgaq6mvu7g7npambrtod@4ax.com...
--
On 6 May 2006 16:00:44 -0700, "mowhak"
<mowhak@my-deja.com> wrote:
-I still wait for the day when all you o-so-critical
accusers of Stalin, whom you all mysteriously seem to
mistake for Socialism's only spokesperson, will attack
all your Capitalist leaders for the failures of
Capitalism with the same rigidity.
What failures of capitalism? Communism has produced
poverty and terror, capitalism wealth and freedom.
where the rich get richer and the poor get poorer
But that's not a failure of capitalism.... it's how it is supposed to
work.
Same with starving children (market self-correction), homelessness
(allocation of scarce resources to those best able to pay for them), low
wages for most (hey, it's all you are worth scum), high wages for some
(well, I am the boss). All in all, capitalism works very well at
ensuring a
few do nicely whilst the rest put up with it under the illusion that if
they
get lucky they will do well too.
I recommend you give the Devil his due, or you may
get a worse devil.
That would require a beleif in god.........
.
|
|
|
|
|
|
| User: "" |
|
| Title: Re: The Alliance With Stalin Is A Permanent Stain On The Western Democracies |
07 May 2006 07:16:23 PM |
|
|
kathryn wrote:
"James A. Donald" <jamesd@echeque.com> wrote in message
news:ogor52pddbps7ttgaq6mvu7g7npambrtod@4ax.com...
--
On 6 May 2006 16:00:44 -0700, "mowhak"
<mowhak@my-deja.com> wrote:
-I still wait for the day when all you o-so-critical
accusers of Stalin, whom you all mysteriously seem to
mistake for Socialism's only spokesperson, will attack
all your Capitalist leaders for the failures of
Capitalism with the same rigidity.
What failures of capitalism? Communism has produced
poverty and terror, capitalism wealth and freedom.
--digsig
James A. Donald
where the rich get richer and the poor get poorer
Where the rich get richer and the poor get richer. My family is poor at
its roots on all sides, and I am vastly richer than all of my great
grandparents combined, who were farmers, miners, and the like. But I am
not rich at all - I am close to average. What is true for me, is true
for the vast majority of Americans. Even Americans on welfare are
vastly better off in material terms than average Americans were just a
few generations ago. The only ones who are arguably not as well off are
the ones with no shelter, the homeless, who are not even part of the
supposed capitalist system where the rich supposedly exploit the
proletariat. The homeless are not proletarians because they do not
work. And anyway, homelessness is caused by socialist meddling in the
housing market.
.
|
|
|
| User: "brique" |
|
| Title: Re: The Alliance With Stalin Is A Permanent Stain On The Western Democracies |
07 May 2006 11:29:23 PM |
|
|
<constantinopoli@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1147047383.415066.257620@i39g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
kathryn wrote:
"James A. Donald" <jamesd@echeque.com> wrote in message
news:ogor52pddbps7ttgaq6mvu7g7npambrtod@4ax.com...
--
On 6 May 2006 16:00:44 -0700, "mowhak"
<mowhak@my-deja.com> wrote:
-I still wait for the day when all you o-so-critical
accusers of Stalin, whom you all mysteriously seem to
mistake for Socialism's only spokesperson, will attack
all your Capitalist leaders for the failures of
Capitalism with the same rigidity.
What failures of capitalism? Communism has produced
poverty and terror, capitalism wealth and freedom.
--digsig
James A. Donald
where the rich get richer and the poor get poorer
Where the rich get richer and the poor get richer. My family is poor at
its roots on all sides, and I am vastly richer than all of my great
grandparents combined, who were farmers, miners, and the like. But I am
not rich at all - I am close to average. What is true for me, is true
for the vast majority of Americans. Even Americans on welfare are
vastly better off in material terms than average Americans were just a
few generations ago. The only ones who are arguably not as well off are
the ones with no shelter, the homeless, who are not even part of the
supposed capitalist system where the rich supposedly exploit the
proletariat. The homeless are not proletarians because they do not
work. And anyway, homelessness is caused by socialist meddling in the
housing market.
Excellent work, there are no poor because capitalism doesn't have poor
people, therefore they dont exist.
.
|
|
|
| User: "" |
|
| Title: Re: The Alliance With Stalin Is A Permanent Stain On The Western Democracies |
08 May 2006 12:47:57 AM |
|
|
brique wrote:
<constantinopoli@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1147047383.415066.257620@i39g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
kathryn wrote:
"James A. Donald" <jamesd@echeque.com> wrote in message
news:ogor52pddbps7ttgaq6mvu7g7npambrtod@4ax.com...
--
On 6 May 2006 16:00:44 -0700, "mowhak"
<mowhak@my-deja.com> wrote:
-I still wait for the day when all you o-so-critical
accusers of Stalin, whom you all mysteriously seem to
mistake for Socialism's only spokesperson, will attack
all your Capitalist leaders for the failures of
Capitalism with the same rigidity.
What failures of capitalism? Communism has produced
poverty and terror, capitalism wealth and freedom.
--digsig
James A. Donald
where the rich get richer and the poor get poorer
Where the rich get richer and the poor get richer. My family is poor at
its roots on all sides, and I am vastly richer than all of my great
grandparents combined, who were farmers, miners, and the like. But I am
not rich at all - I am close to average. What is true for me, is true
for the vast majority of Americans. Even Americans on welfare are
vastly better off in material terms than average Americans were just a
few generations ago. The only ones who are arguably not as well off are
the ones with no shelter, the homeless, who are not even part of the
supposed capitalist system where the rich supposedly exploit the
proletariat. The homeless are not proletarians because they do not
work. And anyway, homelessness is caused by socialist meddling in the
housing market.
Excellent work, there are no poor because capitalism doesn't have poor
people, therefore they dont exist.
Apperently you found nothing in my statements that you were able to
dispute intelligently, seeing as you made something up instead.
.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
| User: "" |
|
| Title: Sount of Trumpet says Hitler was Better (was: Re: The Alliance With Stalin Is A Permanent Stain On The Western Democracies) |
07 May 2006 08:41:19 AM |
|
|
James A. Donald wrote:
--
On 6 May 2006 16:00:44 -0700, "mowhak"
<mowhak@my-deja.com> wrote:
-I still wait for the day when all you o-so-critical
accusers of Stalin, whom you all mysteriously seem to
mistake for Socialism's only spokesperson, will attack
all your Capitalist leaders for the failures of
Capitalism with the same rigidity.
What failures of capitalism? Communism has produced
poverty and terror, capitalism wealth and freedom.
Not everyone regards capitalism as unmitigated utopia.
Indeed, most of its admirers, even the most ardent,
would agree that it is not quite paradise. Perhaps,
though, you are among the small number who take a
religious view of it?
.
|
|
|
| User: "Malcolm" |
|
| Title: Re: Sount of Trumpet says Hitler was Better (was: Re: The Alliance With Stalin Is A Permanent Stain On The Western Democracies) |
07 May 2006 05:29:44 PM |
|
|
<anarcissie@gmail.com> wrote
Not everyone regards capitalism as unmitigated utopia.
Indeed, most of its admirers, even the most ardent,
would agree that it is not quite paradise. Perhaps,
though, you are among the small number who take a
religious view of it?
It is important to manage the money. Almost everyone agrees on that. However
the philosopher who said that, if the money was distributed justly, then all
other positive social benefits would flow from that, was Marx.
--
Buy my book 12 Common Atheist Arguments (refuted)
$1.25 download or $7.20 paper, available www.lulu.com/bgy1mm
.
|
|
| | | | |