On Jul 28, 5:49 pm, Conspiracy of Doves <mark_d...@yahoo.com> wrote:

There doesn't even need to be a set of rules.

Oh, yes there does.

Why would I want to bother? It's not as if the 10 Commandments define
morality.

Sure, there's a couple good rules in there, but a lot of them are
crap. The average 5-year-old could come up with a better set of 10.

There doesn't even need to be a set of rules.

Oh, yes there does.

On Jul 28, 5:49 pm, Conspiracy of Doves <mark_d...@yahoo.com> wrote:

On Jul 28, 4:26 pm, "So!" <so2...@yahoo.uk> wrote:

"Conspiracy of Doves" <mark_d...@yahoo.com> wrote in
messagenews:1185654243.815113.281310@q75g2000hsh.googlegroups.com...

The Atheist Debate

I received a letter from an atheist over the weekend. He claimed
that it was perfectly logical to be an atheist, that he was just
as moral as any Christian. I asked him this simple question: "
Given the basic assumptions of "militant atheism," if somebody put
a bullet in your brain, would that person have done anything
wrong?" He responded with this:

If you think that as an atheist that I do not believe murder is
wrong then you have no real understanding of what it means to be
an atheist. The entire term "militant atheism" is a non-sequitur
invented to label the people who do not wish to be forced to
either sanction with their tax dollars or to honor your
prehistoric beliefs. We simply wish to live in a free society
without being pressed into accepting the silly beliefs and
practices that you do. However, I would fight just as hard for
your right to believe whatever the heck you want as long as it
doesn't infringe upon me. I also do not approve of your beliefs or
lifestyle. I just realize that I have no right to tell anyone how
to live.

Nearly every atheist I've encountered does not get it. Yes, they
are (mostly) moral people. That's not the issue. I want to know
how an atheist accounts for his moral worldview. Why is it murder
for one human being to kill another human being, but it's not
murder for a dog to kill another dog? Why is it wrong for one
group of randomly formed atoms to extinguish the "life force" of
another group of randomly formed atoms?

You may have noticed something else that atheists throw into the
argument. My emailer did it in predictable fashion: "I would fight
just as hard for your right to believe whatever the heck you want
as long as it doesn't infringe upon me." Where does this rule come
from? In a universe that supposedly came into existence by chance
from the accidental collection of atoms, where do "rights" and
"self-determination" come from? The Declaration of Independence
accounts for such things by asserting that they are an endowment
from the Creator. If there is no God but only matter, why is
anything right or wrong?

The debate over the existence of God has been a long one. The
Bible acknowledges that there are people who deny God's existence.
Such a person is called a "fool" (Psalm 14:1). American Vision has
been on the front lines in confronting the atheists head on. We've
published two books: Letter from a Christian Citizen by Douglas
Wilson and The Return of the Village Atheist by Joel McDurmon.
Both have gotten some attention. There will be an online debate
between Douglas Wilson and Christopher Hitchens, author of God is
Not Great. It will be sponsored by Christianity Today. The
following was written by Ted Olson of CT magazine:

Newsweek had Rick Warren vs. Sam Harris.

Beliefnet had Harris vs. Andrew Sullivan.

Next week, ABC's Nightline hasKirk Cameronand Ray Comfort vs. the
BlasphemyChallenge.com guys.

No. Really. Nightline has tappedKirk Cameronto be fidei defensor.

I suppose we could have asked Cameron, too. Or maybe Lisa
Whelchel, Mr. T, Willie Aames, Justine Bateman, or Gavin McLeod.

Instead, we'd rather hear from Douglas Wilson, author of the new
book, Letter from a Christian Citizen (American Vision). Wilson is
senior fellow of theology at New Saint Andrews College and
minister at Christ Church in Moscow, Idaho. He is also the editor
of Credenda/Agenda magazine and has written (among other things)
Reforming Marriage and A Serrated Edge: A Brief Defense of
Biblical Satire and Trinitarian Skylarking. His Blog and Mablog
site inevitably makes for provocative reading.

Wilson will be corresponding with Christopher Hitchens, author of
the new book, God Is Not Great: How Religion Poisons Everything (
Twelve Books). Hitchens is a contributing editor to Vanity Fair
and a visiting professor of liberal studies at the New School. He
is the author of numerous books, including Thomas Jefferson:
Author of America, Thomas Paine's "Rights of Man," Letters To a
Young Contrarian, and Why Orwell Matters. He was named, to his own
amusement, number five on a list of the "Top 100 Public
Intellectuals" by Foreign Policy and Britain's Prospect.

You'll enjoy the discussion regardless of whether you're already
familiar with Wilson and Hitchens. But if you are familiar with
their work, you'll know that it promises to be anything but
boring.

by Gary DeMar
5/7/2007

The answer is simple. A lot simpler than most fundamentalists
realize.

What kind of world do you want to live in? Do you want to live in
the kind of world where people steal, kill, rape, and perform other
atrocities?
No? Then don't do it, yourself.

DO you think you can obey all 10 of the Ten Commandments on your
own!? (-;

Why would I want to bother? It's not as if the 10 Commandments define
morality.

Sure, there's a couple good rules in there, but a lot of them are crap.
The average 5-year-old could come up with a better set of 10.

There doesn't even need to be a set of rules.

Oh, yes there does.

On Sat, 28 Jul 2007 08:18:51 -0400, "U2" <u2_0202@NOThotmail.com>
wrote:

The Atheist Debate

I received a letter from an atheist over the weekend. He claimed that it
was perfectly logical to be an atheist, that he was just as moral as any
Christian. I asked him this simple question: " Given the basic assumptions
of "militant atheism," if somebody put a bullet in your brain, would that
person have done anything wrong?" He responded with this:

If you think that as an atheist that I do not believe murder is wrong then
you have no real understanding of what it means to be an atheist. The
entire term "militant atheism" is a non-sequitur invented to label the
people who do not wish to be forced to either sanction with their tax
dollars or to honor your prehistoric beliefs. We simply wish to live in a
free society without being pressed into accepting the silly beliefs and
practices that you do. However, I would fight just as hard for your right
to believe whatever the heck you want as long as it doesn't infringe upon
me. I also do not approve of your beliefs or lifestyle. I just realize
that I have no right to tell anyone how to live.

Nearly every atheist I've encountered does not get it.

Explain "it".
Does "it" render your atheist's statement invalid?
(you did not get a letter from an atheist right?)

Yes, they are
(mostly) moral people. That's not the issue. I want to know how an atheist
accounts for his moral worldview.

By relying on observations, lessons learned, guidance from adults,
understanding things similar to the golden rule (empathy/sympathy
etc). What they don't do is let bronze age idiots and religious
fuckups guide them.

Why is it murder for one human being to
kill another human being, but it's not murder for a dog to kill another
dog?

Why not ask the dog? Try getting a dog to answer questions about its
morality, and why does it hold the worldview it has.
If you understand why the dog does not answer, then you have the first
step in achieving your answer.
I will give you the benefit of the doubt, that you are actually
smarter than the dog.

Why is it wrong for one group of randomly formed atoms to extinguish
the "life force" of another group of randomly formed atoms?

sneaky "random" *****....

You may have noticed something else that atheists throw into the argument.
My emailer did it in predictable fashion: "I would fight just as hard for
your right to believe whatever the heck you want as long as it doesn't
infringe upon me." Where does this rule come from?

Are you going to ask the same question ceaselessly?

In a universe that
supposedly came into existence by chance from the accidental collection of
atoms, where do "rights" and "self-determination" come from?

It's a long way from the first part of your sentence to the last part,
measured in billions of years, but it's your thickheaded way of asking
the question a third time eh?

The
Declaration of Independence accounts for such things by asserting that
they are an endowment from the Creator. If there is no God but only
matter, why is anything right or wrong?

Fourth time.
The god mentioned in the Declaration of Independence is "nature's
god". The "divine providence" mentioned is more a tactic to tell
Britain that their authority is no longer respected, not that god is
dictating anything to them. Further, just to clear ***** up later the
first amendment establishes that government and god are not to be
entangled, the USA is capable of managing itself without going all
googoo eyed over gawd.

The debate over the existence of God has been a long one.

And you still don't get "it".

The Bible
acknowledges that there are people who deny God's existence. Such a person
is called a "fool" (Psalm 14:1).

Coming from a deluded idiot, that's a compliment then.
Incidentally, there is nothing to deny, refute the ***** is more
accurate.

American Vision has been on the front
lines in confronting the atheists head on. We've published two books:
Letter from a Christian Citizen by Douglas Wilson and The Return of the
Village Atheist by Joel McDurmon. Both have gotten some attention.

Not much attention apparently, never heard of them.
I suppose it's all over the religious news outlets huh?

There
will be an online debate between Douglas Wilson and Christopher Hitchens,
author of God is Not Great. It will be sponsored by Christianity Today.
The following was written by Ted Olson of CT magazine:

Newsweek had Rick Warren vs. Sam Harris.

Beliefnet had Harris vs. Andrew Sullivan.

Next week, ABC's Nightline has Kirk Cameron and Ray Comfort vs. the
BlasphemyChallenge.com guys.

No. Really. Nightline has tapped Kirk Cameron to be fidei defensor.

I suppose we could have asked Cameron, too. Or maybe Lisa Whelchel, Mr. T,
Willie Aames, Justine Bateman, or Gavin McLeod.

Did you call Homer Simpson?