| Topic: |
Religions > Atheism |
| User: |
"U2" |
| Date: |
28 Jul 2007 07:18:51 AM |
| Object: |
The Atheist Debate! |
The Atheist Debate
I received a letter from an atheist over the weekend. He claimed that it
was perfectly logical to be an atheist, that he was just as moral as any
Christian. I asked him this simple question: " Given the basic assumptions
of "militant atheism," if somebody put a bullet in your brain, would that
person have done anything wrong?" He responded with this:
If you think that as an atheist that I do not believe murder is wrong then
you have no real understanding of what it means to be an atheist. The
entire term "militant atheism" is a non-sequitur invented to label the
people who do not wish to be forced to either sanction with their tax
dollars or to honor your prehistoric beliefs. We simply wish to live in a
free society without being pressed into accepting the silly beliefs and
practices that you do. However, I would fight just as hard for your right
to believe whatever the heck you want as long as it doesn't infringe upon
me. I also do not approve of your beliefs or lifestyle. I just realize
that I have no right to tell anyone how to live.
Nearly every atheist I've encountered does not get it. Yes, they are
(mostly) moral people. That's not the issue. I want to know how an atheist
accounts for his moral worldview. Why is it murder for one human being to
kill another human being, but it's not murder for a dog to kill another
dog? Why is it wrong for one group of randomly formed atoms to extinguish
the "life force" of another group of randomly formed atoms?
You may have noticed something else that atheists throw into the argument.
My emailer did it in predictable fashion: "I would fight just as hard for
your right to believe whatever the heck you want as long as it doesn't
infringe upon me." Where does this rule come from? In a universe that
supposedly came into existence by chance from the accidental collection of
atoms, where do "rights" and "self-determination" come from? The
Declaration of Independence accounts for such things by asserting that
they are an endowment from the Creator. If there is no God but only
matter, why is anything right or wrong?
The debate over the existence of God has been a long one. The Bible
acknowledges that there are people who deny God's existence. Such a person
is called a "fool" (Psalm 14:1). American Vision has been on the front
lines in confronting the atheists head on. We've published two books:
Letter from a Christian Citizen by Douglas Wilson and The Return of the
Village Atheist by Joel McDurmon. Both have gotten some attention. There
will be an online debate between Douglas Wilson and Christopher Hitchens,
author of God is Not Great. It will be sponsored by Christianity Today.
The following was written by Ted Olson of CT magazine:
Newsweek had Rick Warren vs. Sam Harris.
Beliefnet had Harris vs. Andrew Sullivan.
Next week, ABC's Nightline has Kirk Cameron and Ray Comfort vs. the
BlasphemyChallenge.com guys.
No. Really. Nightline has tapped Kirk Cameron to be fidei defensor.
I suppose we could have asked Cameron, too. Or maybe Lisa Whelchel, Mr. T,
Willie Aames, Justine Bateman, or Gavin McLeod.
Instead, we'd rather hear from Douglas Wilson, author of the new book,
Letter from a Christian Citizen (American Vision). Wilson is senior fellow
of theology at New Saint Andrews College and minister at Christ Church in
Moscow, Idaho. He is also the editor of Credenda/Agenda magazine and has
written (among other things) Reforming Marriage and A Serrated Edge: A
Brief Defense of Biblical Satire and Trinitarian Skylarking. His Blog and
Mablog site inevitably makes for provocative reading.
Wilson will be corresponding with Christopher Hitchens, author of the new
book, God Is Not Great: How Religion Poisons Everything ( Twelve Books).
Hitchens is a contributing editor to Vanity Fair and a visiting professor
of liberal studies at the New School. He is the author of numerous books,
including Thomas Jefferson: Author of America, Thomas Paine's "Rights of
Man," Letters To a Young Contrarian, and Why Orwell Matters. He was named,
to his own amusement, number five on a list of the "Top 100 Public
Intellectuals" by Foreign Policy and Britain's Prospect.
You'll enjoy the discussion regardless of whether you're already familiar
with Wilson and Hitchens. But if you are familiar with their work, you'll
know that it promises to be anything but boring.
by Gary DeMar
5/7/2007
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| User: "Jim07D7" |
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| Title: Re: The Atheist Debate! |
28 Jul 2007 01:21:18 PM |
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"U2" <u2_0202@NOThotmail.com> said:
Nearly every atheist I've encountered does not get it. Yes, they are
(mostly) moral people. That's not the issue. I want to know how an atheist
accounts for his moral worldview. Why is it murder for one human being to
kill another human being, but it's not murder for a dog to kill another
dog? Why is it wrong for one group of randomly formed atoms to extinguish
the "life force" of another group of randomly formed atoms?
Setting up a straw man atheist is silly. Instead, take several
non-theistic replies and think about them. Even a theist should be
able to generate a non-theistic reply that is not full of straw man
fallacies. Here's mine.
First, morality is a system for controlling behavior in a society or
group, that relies on internalization of motivators by the individual
members of the society. A successful moral code benefits the
individuals and the society. Of course, by other moral codes, a
particular moral code might be considered immoral.
Second, societies enshrine their morality in institutions like
religion, which gives the moral code an aura of divine approval and
absoluteness, and helps preserve it over time. Many people do not
realize this. In fact, the indoctrination process causes some people
to never realize this. Theists in particular, have difficulty with
this.
Of course moral rules are also enforced by the legal system, when
religion is not sufficient and the rule is important enough.
There are gradients of importance and enforcement. "Good manners" or
etiquette is probably the weakest, and criminal felony law the
strongest.
"Murder" is legally defined as a felony; the premeditated, deliberate,
willfully unlawful killing of a human being. (Note that "morally
wrong" does not enter into it.) We generally do not think of dogs as
capable of such premeditation, deliberation or willfully unlawful
action toward humans or toward other animals. IOW, we do not think of
them as "moral agents", at least in under law. Individual dog owners
might well think their dogs are intentionally doing good or bad, at
times.
Humans and non-human animals (and even things like "future
generations") can be and are considered, in some moral codes, as
having the potential of being "moral victims". (In the past, certain
kinds of humans were not treated as having this potential, but instead
were treated as property. Arguably, this persists today.)
Third, you've never been responsible for training a dog, apparently.
Motivators for socially approved behavior work pretty much the same in
dogs and humans, and can be internalized in both species. Dogs appear
to be motivated by much the same things as humans.
Also, approved behavior of dogs and approved behavior of humans is
about the same.
One apparent difference is the degree to which we can use language
alone to communicate rules, and internalize motivators, with humans,
versus with dogs.
Another is that the pack and hierarchy within the pack appears to be
more important in dogs, and they can transfer this relationship to
their human and the human family they live with.
"Life force" is an antiquated idea. "Random" materialism is not
necessary for atheists to espouse. In fact, it's a contradiction in
terms, since materialism sees regularities in nature.
What else did you want to know?
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| User: "RU Liken IT Yet!" |
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| Title: Re: The Atheist Debate! |
28 Jul 2007 02:54:00 PM |
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"Jim07D7" <Jim07D7@nospam.net> wrote in message news:gouma3hif2m6i1tcgam2eqvcepc21s80qr@4ax.com...
There is Hate in the World and There is also a Supernatural Enemy
John 15:18-20 (NASB95)
Disciples' Relation to the World
18 "aIf the world hates you, 1you know that it has hated Me
before it hated you.
19 "If you were of the world, the world would love its own; but
because you are not of the world, but aI chose you out of the world,
bbecause of this the world hates you.
20 "Remember the word that I said to you, 'aA slave is not
greater than his master.' If they persecuted Me, bthey will also
persecute you; if they ckept My word, they will keep yours also.
[1]
If the world loves you, watch out-you're in hot water. Paul told his
protigi, Timothy, that all who live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer
persecution (2 Timothy 3:12). That's a fact. If you are living godly,
you're not going to make it into the Who's Who of the world's system. It
just won't work that way.
[2]
15:18, 19 Since Satan is the one who dominates the evil world system in
rebellion against God (14:30), the result is that the world hates not only
Jesus, but those who follow Him (2 Tim. 3:12). Hatred toward Jesus means
also hatred toward the Father who sent Him (v. 23).
15:20 servant...master. That axiom, spoken also in 13:16, reflects the
obvious truth that led Jesus to inform His disciples. They could expect to
be treated like He was treated because those who hated Him don't know God
(v. 21) and would hate them also; and conversely, those who listened with
faith to Him, would hear them also.
[3]
The reason the world will hate you is because you're light (1
Thessalonians 5:5). And when light shines, people in the dark get real
uneasy. Like bugs under a rock, they start scrambling and fleeing. "If I
hadn't come," said Jesus, "men could continue on in their sin, and no one
would feel uncomfortable. But because I came, because of how I lived,
because of where I stand, men have no cloak for their sin. Consequently,
they feel exposed and foolish in their iniquity. And will hate you as a
result."[4]
Jesus Predicts the World's Hatred (15:18-16:4)
15:18, 19 The disciples were not to be surprised or disheartened if the
world hates them. (The if does not express any doubt that this would
happen; it was certain.) The world hated the Lord, and it will hate all
who resemble Him.
Men of the world love those who live as they do-those who use vile
language and indulge in the lusts of the flesh, or people who are cultured
but live only for themselves. Christians condemn them by their holy lives,
therefore the world hates them.
15:20 Here servant literally means "slave." A disciple should not expect
any better treatment from the world than his Master received. He will be
persecuted just as Christ was. His word will be refused just as the
Savior's was.
[5]
Notice what will happen if you are a child of God. The world will hate
you. I believe that a Christian's popularity can be an indication of how
he is representing Christ to the world. I do not believe a Christian can
be popular in the world. No Christian has any right to be more popular
than Jesus was. Beware of a compromising position in order to be popular.
The world will not love a real child of God. The world will love you if
you are of the world. You don't have to act oddly or be super-pious. The
world will hate you if you are a child of God. This is difficult,
especially for young people who want so much to be popular. Let's tell our
young people what the Lord says. They are not going to be popular with the
world if they are the children of God.
Unfortunately, there are folk in the church today who are not honestly
born again, and they will also hate you if you are a child of God. They
will hate the preacher if he is true to the Word of God. May I say again,
beware of the Christian who is popular with the world.
[6]
15:18-19 "If the world hates you, be aware that it hated me before it
hated you." NRSV Jesus was hated from the very beginning (when Jesus was a
young child, King Herod sought him out to kill him-Matthew 2:13-16). He
was hated at the end when the people rejected him as the Savior and called
for his crucifixion. The same world would surely hate those who proclaim
allegiance to the crucified Lord.
"If you belonged to the world, it would love you as its own. As it is, you
do not belong to the world, but I have chosen you out of the world. That
is why the world hates you." NIV Jesus wants believers to be distinctive;
he sets us apart from the world. His choosing and setting us apart makes
us holy and helps us grow. Our very separation from the world arouses the
world's animosity. The world would prefer that we were like them; since we
are not, they hate us (see 1 Peter 4:3-4).
.. WELCOMED REJECTION
Jesus taught us to expect rejection. Rejection may be difficult to take,
but if we never experience it, we may be hiding our Christianity from
others. If we profess Christ and are warmly embraced by the world, we
should reexamine our commitment and life-style. If we remain silent about
our faith in order to gain acceptance by the world, we have made a poor
trade. In fact, we are being dishonest in two ways: We deny the faith we
claim as central in our lives, and we deceive those whose acceptance we
want by not revealing our Christian faith. The Scriptures warn us,
"Friendship with the world is hatred toward God" (James 4:4 niv; see also
2 Timothy 3:10-12; 1 John 2:15-17; 3:1; 4:5-6).
[7]
15:18 Jesus wanted to prepare His disciples for the opposition that they
would face after His departure. To do this He announced first that they
would encounter opposition from the world (cf. 1 John 3:13). Here the
world (Gr. kosmos) refers to the mass of unbelievers. The conditional
sentence in the Greek text assumes the reality of what Jesus stated for
the argument's sake. The world would hate them. A person cannot be an
intimate friend of Jesus (i.e., and abiding believer) without drawing
hatred from His enemies.
The world hates Jesus because He testified that its deeds are evil (7:7).
His abiding disciples draw hatred from the world because they associate
themselves with Him and His teachings and because they seek to advance His
mission. Remembering the world's hatred for the Master makes bearing that
hatred easier for His disciple.
15:19 Believers are aliens in the world because Jesus has called us out of
it to fulfill His plans and purposes. The world does not hate us because
we are superior but because we are servants of the Lord whom it has
rejected.
[8]
John 7:7 (NASB95)
7 "aThe world cannot hate you, but it hates Me because I testify
of it, that bits deeds are evil.
[9]
.. Why are Christians Hated?
John 15:18-15:27
One of the things that confuses many Christians is the attitude of
non-Christians toward them. Most of us think that since we go to the world
with the greatest and most important message in all of history that the
world would applaud and cheer. For the most part, people are not waiting
for that message with open arms. In fact, the Bible says that the world
does not want us or our message. They hate us. Hate? That is what Jesus
said.
Why does the world hate Christians?
A. Because Christians are different. (18,19)
"If the world hate you, ye know that it hated Me before it hate you."
"world" is not the earth. Everyone lives in the physical world. It is the
word - cosmos. It is the word from which we get the word COSMETICS. It
means "to put in order." Cosmetics are designed to put women's faces in
order. Most of you have watched women putting on their make-up with the
use of the car mirror while on their way to work.
The world than is organized. Put in order. It is a system run by an
intelligent head, the devil. He has one specific goal: to get this world
order to leave God out. The word "worldly" then as it is used biblically
means to operate as if there is no God. Don Carson - The created moral
order in active rebellion against God. To buy into that system and operate
within that system that in practice and lifestyle operates independently
of God.
You cannot reconcile the war between the kingdom of this world and the
kingdom of God. (James 4:4) "Know ye not that the friendship of the world
is enmity with God? Whosoever therefore will be the friend of the world is
the enemy of God." You cannot be a friend of that which hates the Father.
The world says: disobey God, forget God, don't follow God, leave God out,
forsake God. You can't be a friend of something like that. You can't have
God and the world.
(Rom 12:2) "Don't be conformed to this world." Don't be squeezed into its
mold. Don't let the world tell you what to do.
Ho do you know when the world is telling you what to do? Can you include
God? Anything that keeps you from including God is worldly.
As a Christian, what can I do? Anything God can do with you. If Jesus has
to wait outside while you do it, DON'T DO IT!
You love what you spend your time, your money and your energy on. If very
little of it is going to God, then God is not the One you love.
(19) "If ye were of the world, the world would love his own: but because
ye are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore
the world hateth you."
The more you look like Christ the more the world is going to treat you the
same way it treated Him. When you don't act, talk or think like the world
does, you are going to make the crowd uncomfortable. You are not going to
be "one of us." The fact is you are not. God has "chosen you out" by His
sovereign grace. This concept of a Christian living in the world, but not
being of the world is a key concept to understand what it means to be a
Christian. "His own" are those who have become at home in the world. Life
on this earth is all they live for. They spend their lives trying to get
the things of this world. Their values are wrapped up in power, pleasure
and possessions.
B. Because Christians insist on an absolute standard.(20-24)
(20) "Remember the word that I said unto you, The servant is not greater
than his lord. If they have presecuted Me, they will also persecute you;
if they have kept My saying, they will keep yours also."
If the church today is not undergoing persecution it may be because there
is very little distinction between the world and the church. Religious
surveys consistently show that there are no noticeable differences between
the lifestyles of those who attend church and those who do not. Church
members wear the same clothes as the secular culture, watch the same
movies, get divorced at the same rate, buy as many lottery tickets, have
as man affairs and use just as many questionable business practices. The
secular culture has so invaded the minds and hearts of those in the church
both in the pew and the pulpit, that the godless society sees nothing
about the church worth persecuting. That in itself may be the most telling
criticism the church faces today.
(21) "Butall these things will they do unto you for My name's sake,
because they know not Him that sent Me."
They hated Jesus because they did not know the Father. They will hate you
becaue they don't know Jesus.
(22) "If I had not come and spoken unto them, they had not had sin: but
now they have no cloak for their sin."
If Jesus had kept His mouth shut and just gone around healing and feeding
people, there wouldn't have been any trouble. But He exposed their sin.
(23) "He that hateth Me hateth My Father also."
You can't have the Father without the Son.
(24) "If I had not done among them the works which none other man did,
they had not had sin: but now have they both seen and hated both Me and My
Father."
They heard what He said and they saw His lifestyle and it revealed their
sinfulness. Now there was an absolute standard. Everything is to be
measured against Jesus. When you live a life that imitates Christ it will
bring to mind their own sins. They do not want a Christian who reflects
God's holiness. Folks want to hear "we all sin." They don't want to be
confronted by a higher standard. That is why they are so quick to latch on
to anything negative they hear about the church.
C. Because Christians remind them of the God they hate. (25-27)
(25) "But this cometh to pass, that the Word might be fulfilled that is
written in their law, They hated Me with a cause."
Remember when you were in school. Sometimes they graded on a CURVE. The
highest grade became a 100. It created a whole new standard. Jesus messed
up the curve. When He graded out 100 everyone else had to be compared to
Him.
Harry Ironside told the story of the missionary in Africa. In a very
backward village, he left a mirror hanging on a tree after shaving. The
wife of the tribal chief came along and looked into it. She had never seen
a mirror before. She asked "Who is that ugly woman?" When the missionary
explained the mirror to her and told her that it was she. She got made,
threw the mirror down and crushed it.
The world doesn't want to be shown what it looks like. It makes them mad.
They can't take out their hatred on Christ, so they take it out on you.
(26) "But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the
Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, He
shall testify of Me."
How am I going to make it in this hostile world? "The Comforter" will give
me the staying power.
(27) "And ye also shall bear witness, because ye have been with Me from
the beginning."
The Holy Spirit witnesses and you witness. You have a strength beyond
yourself ot go on in your Christian witness. A witness is someone who
simply tells what he or she has experienced.
Billy Graham is now in his 80's and has Parkinson's Disease. Just a few
years ago, he told this story that reveals that he understood that this
world is not our home. Many wonderful things had been said about him as he
stepped to the podium at a luncheon given in his honor in his hometown of
Charlotte, N.C.
"I'm reminded today of Albert Einstein, the great physicist who this month
has been honore by Time magazine as the Man of the Century. Einstein was
once traveling from Princeton on a train when the conductor came down the
aisle, punching tickets of every passenger. When he came to Einstein,
Einstein reached in his vest pocket. He couldn't find his ticket, so he
reached in his trousers pocket. It wasn't there. So he looked in in his
briefcase but couldn't find it. Then he looked in the seat beside him. He
still couldn't find it.
The conductor said "Dr. Einstein, I know who you are. We all know who you
are. I'm sure you bought a ticket. Don't worry about it". Einstein nodded
appreciatively. The conductor continued down the aisle punching tickets.
As he was ready to move to the next car, he turned around and saw the
great physicist down on his hands and knees looking under his seat for his
ticket. The conductor rushed back and said, "Dr. Einstein, don't worry, I
know who you are. No problem. You don't need a ticket. I'm sure you bought
one."
Einstein looked at the conductor and said, "Young man, I too, know who I
am. What I don't know is where I'm going."
Having said that Billy Graham continued, "See the suit I'm wearing? It's a
brand new suit. My wife, my children, and my grandchildren are telling me
I've gotten a little slovenly in my old age. I used to be more fastidious.
So I went out and bought a new suit for this luncheon and one more
occasion.
You know what that occasion is? This is the suit in which I'll be buried.
But when you hear I'm dead, I don't want you to immediately remember the
suit I'm wearing. I want you to remember this:
I NOT ONLY KNOW WHO I AM...I ALSO KNOW WHERE I'M GOING."
That is the message that we are called to share with a lost world. We know
who we are in Christ and we know where we will spend eternity. And we know
how they can have the same assurance.
It is not a popular message. Most will reject it. Sharing the message may
make you very unpopular with people. But you will be popular with the
Christ who first brought it and received an even worse reception.
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a John 7:7; 1 John 3:13 1 Or (imperative) know that a John 15:16 b
Matt 10:22; 24:9; John 17:14 a Matt 10:24; John 13:16 b 1 Cor 4:12; 2
Cor 4:9; 2 Tim 3:12 c John 8:51
[1] New American Standard Bible : 1995 update. 1995. LaHabra, CA: The
Lockman Foundation.
[2]Courson, J. (2003). Jon Courson's Application Commentary (567).
Nashville, TN: Thomas Nelson.
[3]MacArthur, J. J. (1997, c1997). The MacArthur Study Bible (electronic
ed.) (Jn 15:18). Nashville: Word Pub.
[4]Courson, J. (2003). Jon Courson's Application Commentary (567).
Nashville, TN: Thomas Nelson.
[5]MacDonald, W., & Farstad, A. (1997, c1995). Believer's Bible Commentary
: Old and New Testaments (Jn 15:18). Nashville: Thomas Nelson.
[6]McGee, J. V. (1997, c1981). Thru the Bible commentary. Based on the
Thru the Bible radio program. (electronic ed.) (4:470). Nashville: Thomas
Nelson.
NRSV Scripture quotations marked NRSV are taken from the New Revised
Standard Version of the Bible, copyrighted, 1989 by the Division of
Christian Education of the National Council of the Churches of Christ in
the United States of America, and are used by permission. All rights
reserved.
NIV Scripture quotations marked NIV are taken from the Holy Bible, New
International Version®. NIV®. Copyright © 1973, 1978, 1984 by
International Bible Society. Used by permission of Zondervan Publishing
House. All rights reserved.
[7]Barton, B. B. (1993). John. Life application Bible commentary (316).
Wheaton, Ill.: Tyndale House.
[8]Tom Constable. (2003; 2003). Tom Constable's Expository Notes on the
Bible (Jn 15:18-19). Galaxie Software.
a John 15:18f
b John 3:19f
[9] New American Standard Bible : 1995 update. 1995. LaHabra, CA: The
Lockman Foundation.
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| User: "Jim07D7" |
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| Title: Re: The Atheist Debate! |
28 Jul 2007 05:14:04 PM |
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"RU Liken IT Yet!" <rulikenityet_221@NOThotmail.com> said:
"Jim07D7" <Jim07D7@nospam.net> wrote in message news:gouma3hif2m6i1tcgam2eqvcepc21s80qr@4ax.com...
There is Hate in the World and There is also a Supernatural Enemy
There is hate in the world. The rest is dramatic license.
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| User: "RU Liken IT Yet!" |
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| Title: Re: The Atheist Debate! |
28 Jul 2007 08:26:15 PM |
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"Jim07D7" <Jim07D7@nospam.net> wrote in message news:6sfna3l1n5qacpelvrmos7pkakqvlj4rli@4ax.com...
"RU Liken IT Yet!" <rulikenityet_221@NOThotmail.com> said:
"Jim07D7" <Jim07D7@nospam.net> wrote in message news:gouma3hif2m6i1tcgam2eqvcepc21s80qr@4ax.com...
There is Hate in the World and There is also a Supernatural Enemy
There is hate in the world. The rest is dramatic license.
Nope!
JESUS IS THE CREATOR.
(Colossians 155-17 NASB)
15 1 He is the a image of the b invisible God, the c firstborn of all
creation.
16 For 1 a by Him all things were created, aboth in the heavens and on
earth, visible and invisible, whether b thrones or dominions or rulers or
authorities- c all things have been created through Him and for Him.
17 He 1 a is before all things, and in Him all things 2 hold together. 1
The Glories of Christ the Church's Head (1:15-23)
1:15 In the next four verses, we have the Lord Jesus described: (1) in His
relationship to God (v. 15); (2) in His relationship to creation (vv. 16,
17); and (3) in His relationship to the church (v. 18).
The Lord is here described as the image of the invisible God. Image
carries with it at least two ideas. First, it conveys the thought that the
Lord Jesus has enabled us to see what God is like. God is Spirit and is
therefore invisible. But in the Person of Christ, God made Himself visible
to mortal eyes. In that sense the Lord Jesus is the image of the invisible
God. Whoever has seen Him has seen the Father (see John 14:9). But the
word image also conveys the idea of "representative." God had originally
placed Adam on the earth to represent His interests, but Adam failed.
Therefore, God sent His only begotten Son into the world as His
Representative to care for His interests and to reveal His heart of love
to man. In that sense, He is the image of God. The same word image is used
in 3:10, where believers are said to be the image of Christ.
Christ is also the firstborn over all creation, or "of every created
being." What does this mean? Some false teachers suggest that the Lord
Jesus is Himself a created being, that He was the first Person whom God
ever made. Some of them are even willing to go so far as to admit that He
is the greatest creature ever to come from the hand of God. But nothing
could be more directly contrary to the teaching of the word of God.
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1 Lit Who is a 2 Cor 4:4 b John 1:1 c Rom 8:29 1 Or in a Eph 1:10 b Eph
1:20f; Col 2:15 c John 1:3; Rom 11:36; 1 Cor 8:6 1 Or has existed prior to
a John 1:1; 8:58 2 Or endure
1New American Standard Bible : 1995 update. 1995 (Col 1:15-17). LaHabra,
CA: The Lockman Foundation.
KJV King James Version
2MacDonald, W., & Farstad, A. (1997, c1995). Believer's Bible Commentary :
Old and New Testaments (Col 1:15). Nashville: Thomas Nelson.
a Gen 1:1; Col 1:17; 1 John 1:1 b John 1:14; Rev 19:13 c John 17:5; 1 John
1:2 d Phil 2:6 1 Lit This one a John 1:10; 1 Cor 8:6; Col 1:16; Heb 1:2 a
John 5:26; 11:25; 14:6 b John 8:12; 9:5; 12:46 a John 3:19 1 Or overpower
3New American Standard Bible : 1995 update. 1995 (Jn 1:1-5). LaHabra, CA:
The Lockman Foundation.
NKJV New King James Version
4MacDonald, W., & Farstad, A. (1997, c1995). Believer's Bible Commentary :
Old and New Testaments (Jn 1:1). Nashville: Thomas Nelson.
5McGee, J. V. (1997, c1981). Thru the Bible commentary. Based on the Thru
the Bible radio program. (electronic ed.) (4:369-370). Nashville: Thomas
Nelson.
The expression "firstborn" has at least three different meanings in
Scripture. In Luke 2:7, it is used in a literal sense, where Mary brought
forth her firstborn Son. There it means that the Lord Jesus was the first
Child to whom she gave birth. In Exodus 4:22, on the other hand, it is
used in a figurative sense. "Israel is My son, even My firstborn." In that
verse there is no thought of an actual birth having taken place, but the
Lord is using this word to describe the distinctive place which the nation
of Israel had in His plans and purposes. Finally, in Psalm 89:27, the word
"firstborn" is used to designate a place of superiority, of supremacy, of
uniqueness. There God says that He will make David His firstborn, higher
than the kings of the earth. David was actually the last-born son of Jesse
according to the flesh. But God determined to give him a place of unique
supremacy, primacy, and sovereignty.
Is not that exactly the thought of Colossians 1:15-the firstborn over all
creation? The Lord Jesus Christ is God's unique Son. In one sense all
believers are sons of God, but the Lord Jesus is God's Son in a way that
is not true of any other. He existed before all creation and occupies a
position of supremacy over it. His is the rank of eminence and dominion.
The expression firstborn over all creation has nothing to do with birth
here. It simply means that He is God's Son by an eternal relationship. It
is a title of priority of position, and not simply one of time.
1:16 False teachers use verse 15 (especially in the KJV) to teach that the
Lord Jesus was a created being. Error can usually be refuted from the very
passage of Scripture which the cultists use. That is the case here. Verse
16 states conclusively that the Lord Jesus is not a creature, but the very
Creator. In this verse we learn that all things-the whole universe of
things-were created not only by Him but through Him and for Him. Each of
these prepositions conveys a different thought. First of all, we read that
by Him all things were created. Here the thought is that the power to
create was in His Being. He was the Architect. Later in the verse we learn
that all things were created through Him. This speaks of Him as the Agent
in creation. He was the Person of the Godhead through whom the creative
act was performed. Also, all things were created for Him. He is the One
for whom all things were created, the goal of creation.
Paul goes to great lengths to emphasize that all things were created
through Christ, whether things in heaven, or things on earth. This leaves
no loopholes for anyone to suggest that although He created some things,
He Himself was created originally.
The apostle then goes on to state that the Lord's creation included things
visible and things invisible. The word visible needs no explanation, but
doubtless the Apostle Paul realized that when he said invisible he would
arouse our curiosity. Therefore, he proceeds to give a break-down of what
he means by things invisible. They include thrones, dominions,
principalities, and powers. We believe that these terms refer to angelic
beings, although we cannot distinguish between the different ranks of
these intelligent beings.
The Gnostics taught that there were various ranks and classes of spirit
beings between God and matter, and that Christ belonged to one of these
classes. In our day the Spiritists claim that Jesus Christ is an advanced
spirit of the sixth sphere. Jehovah's Witnesses teach that before our Lord
came into the world, He was a created angel and none other than the
archangel Michael! Here Paul vigorously refutes such absurd notions by
stating in the clearest possible terms that the Lord Jesus Christ is the
Creator of angels-in fact, of all beings, whether visible or invisible.
1:17 He is before all things, and in Him all things consist. Paul says,
"He is before all things," not "He was before all things." The present
tense is often used in the Bible to describe the timelessness of Deity.
The Lord Jesus said, for instance: "Before Abraham was, I AM" (John 8:58).
Not only did the Lord Jesus exist before there was any creation, but also
in Him all things consist. This means that He is the Sustainer of the
universe and the Source of its perpetual motion. He controls the stars and
the sun and the moon. Even while He was here on earth He was the One who
was controlling the laws by which our universe functions in an orderly
manner.
2
(John 1-5 NASB)
The Deity of Jesus Christ
1 a In the beginning was b the Word, and the Word was c with God, and d
the Word was God.
2 1 He was in the beginning with God.
3 a All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing
came into being that has come into being.
4 a In Him was life, and the life was b the Light of men.
5 a The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not 1
comprehend it. 3
Jehovah's Witness misinterpret this as v1 the Word was "a" god.
The Word in Eternity and Time (1:1-5)
1:1 In the beginning was the Word. He did not have a beginning Himself,
but existed from all eternity. As far as the human mind can go back, the
Lord Jesus was there. He never was created. He had no beginning. (A
genealogy would be out of place in this Gospel of the Son of God.) The
Word was with God. He had a separate and distinct personality. He was not
just an idea, a thought, or some vague kind of example, but a real Person
who lived with God. The Word was God. He not only dwelt with God, but He
Himself was God.
The Bible teaches that there is one God and that there are three Persons
in the Godhead-the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. All three of
these Persons are God. In this verse, two of the Persons of the Godhead
are mentioned-God the Father and God the Son. It is the first of many
clear statements in this Gospel that Jesus Christ is God. It is not enough
to say that He is "a god," that He is godlike, or that He is divine. The
Bible teaches that He is God.
1:2 Verse 2 would appear to be a mere repetition of what has been said,
but actually it is not. This verse teaches that Christ's personality and
deity were without beginning. He did not become a person for the first
time as the Babe of Bethlehem. Nor did He somehow become a god after His
resurrection, as some teach today. He is God from all eternity.
1:3 All things were made through Him. He Himself was not a created being;
rather He was the Creator of all things. This includes mankind, the
animals, the heavenly planets, the angels -all things visible and
invisible. Without Him nothing was made that was made. There can be no
possible exception. If a thing was made, He made it. As Creator, He is, of
course, superior to anything He has created. All three Persons of the
Godhead were involved in the work of creation: "God created the heavens
and the earth" (Gen. 1:1). "The Spirit of God was hovering over the face
of the waters" (Gen. 1:2). "All things were created through Him (Christ)
and for Him" (Col. 1:16b).
1:4 In Him was life. This does not simply mean that He possessed life, but
that He was and is the source of life. The word here includes both
physical and spiritual life. When we were born, we received physical life.
When we are born again, we receive spiritual life. Both come from Him.
The life was the light of men. The same One who supplied us with life is
also the light of men. He provides the guidance and direction necessary
for man. It is one thing to exist, but quite another to know how to live,
to know the true purpose of life, and to know the way to heaven. The same
One who gave us life is the One who provides us with light for the pathway
we travel.
There are seven wonderful titles of our Lord Jesus Christ in this opening
chapter of the Gospel. He is called (1) the Word (vv. 1, 14); (2) the
Light (vv. 5, 7); (3) the Lamb of God (vv. 29, 36); (4) the Son of God
(vv. 34, 49); (5) the Christ (Messiah) (v. 41); (6) the King of Israel (v.
49); and (7) the Son of Man (v. 51). The first four titles, each of which
is mentioned at least twice, seem to be universal in application. The last
three titles, each of which is mentioned only once, had their first
application to Israel, God's ancient people.
1:5 The light shines in the darkness. The entrance of sin brought darkness
to the minds of men. It plunged the world into darkness in the sense that
men in general neither knew God nor wanted to know Him. Into this darkness
the Lord Jesus came-a light shining in a dark place.
The darkness did not comprehend it. This may mean that the darkness did
not understand the Lord Jesus when He came into the world. Men did not
realize who He really was, or why He had come. Another meaning, however,
is given in the NKJV margin: the darkness did not overcome it. Then the
thought would be that man's rejection and enmity did not prevent the true
light from shining. 4
WORD IS GOD-WORD BECAME FLESH-WORD REVEALED GOD
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was
God [John 1:1].
The Gospel of John introduces the Lord Jesus Christ with three tremendous
statements:
"In the beginning was the Word,"
"And the Word was with God,"
"And the Word was God."
"The Word" is one of the highest and most profound titles of the Lord
Jesus Christ. To determine the exact meaning is not easy. Obviously the
Lord Jesus Christ is not the logos of Greek philosophy; rather He is the
memra of the Hebrew Scriptures. Notice how important the Word is in the
Old Testament. For instance, the name for Jehovah was never pronounced. It
was such a holy word that they never used it at all. But this is the One
who is the Word and, gathering up everything that was said of Him in the
Old Testament, He is now presented as the One "In the beginning." This
beginning antedates the very first words in the Bible, "In the beginning
God created the heaven and the earth." That beginning can be dated,
although I do not believe that anyone can date it accurately-it is
nonsense to say that it is 4004 B.C., as Ussher's dating has it. It
probably goes back billions and billions of years. You see, you and I are
dealing with the God of eternity. When you go back to creation He is
already there, and that is exactly the way this is used-"in the beginning
was the Word." Notice it is not is the Word; it was not in the beginning
that the Word started out or was begotten. Was (as Dr. Lenske points out)
is known as a durative imperfect, meaning continued action. It means that
the Word was in the beginning. What beginning? Just as far back as you
want to go. The Bible says, "In the beginning God created the heaven and
the earth" (Gen. 1:1). Does that begin God? No, just keep on going back
billions and trillions and "squillions" of years. I can think back to
billions of years back of creation-maybe you can go beyond that-but let's
put down a point there, billions of years back of creation. He already
was; He comes out of eternity to meet us. He did not begin. "In the
beginning was the Word"-He was already there when the beginning was.
"Well," somebody says, "there has to be a beginning somewhere." All right,
wherever you begin, He is there to meet you, He is already past tense. "In
the beginning was the Word"-five words in the original language, and there
is not a man on topside of this earth who can put a date on it or
understand it or fathom it. This first tremendous statement starts us off
in space, you see.
The second statement is this, "and the Word was with God." This makes it
abundantly clear that He is separate and distinct from God the Father. You
cannot identify Him as God the Father because He is with God. "But,"
someone says, "if He is with God, He is not God." The third statement sets
us straight, "and the Word was God." This is a clear, emphatic declaration
that the Lord Jesus Christ is God. In fact, the Greek is more specific
than this, because in the Greek language the important word is placed at
the beginning of the sentence and it reads, "God was the Word." That is
emphatic; you cannot get it more emphatic than that. Do you want to get
rid of the deity of Christ? My friend, you cannot get rid of it. The first
three statements in John's gospel tie the thing down. "In the beginning
was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God."
Let's move on down to verse 14 and notice the three statements there.
And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory,
the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth
[John 1:14].
"And the Word was made flesh,"
"And the Word dwelt among us,"
"He was full of grace and truth."
The Greek philosopher probably would have stayed with us through verse
one, but he leaves us here. He would never agree that the Word was made
flesh. The Greek language allows us to put it more specifically and, I
think, more accurately: "The Word was born flesh." Turn this over in your
mind for a moment. Here comes God out of eternity, already the Ancient of
days; but He also came to Bethlehem, a little baby thing that made a woman
cry. And notice that John's gospel does not even mention His birth in
Bethlehem. Do you know why? He is talking about One who is too big for
Bethlehem. Out of eternity, the Word became flesh.
"And [the Word] dwelt among us" is the second statement in verse 14.
"Dwelt" is from skenoo; it means "He pitched His tent among us." Our human
bodies are merely little tents in which we live. The apostle Paul used the
same imagery: ". we know that if . this tabernacle were dissolved ." (2
Cor. 5:1). This house in which we live is a tabernacle, a tent, that can
be blown over in a night; it can be snuffed out in an instant. Because you
and I live in these little tents, the God of eternity took upon Himself a
human body and thus pitched His tent down here among us. Such is the
second tremendous statement.
Notice the third, "(and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only
begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth." Now John is saying
something else. The question I would naturally ask at this point is, "If
He was made flesh, He certainly limited Himself." John says, "Wait a
minute-He was full of grace and truth." The word "full" means that you
just could not have any more. He brought all the deity with Him, and He
was full of grace and full of truth when He came down here. 5
.
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| User: "Jim07D7" |
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| Title: Re: The Atheist Debate! |
28 Jul 2007 11:20:30 PM |
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"RU Liken IT Yet!" <rulikenityet_221@NOThotmail.com> said:
"Jim07D7" <Jim07D7@nospam.net> wrote in message news:6sfna3l1n5qacpelvrmos7pkakqvlj4rli@4ax.com...
"RU Liken IT Yet!" <rulikenityet_221@NOThotmail.com> said:
"Jim07D7" <Jim07D7@nospam.net> wrote in message news:gouma3hif2m6i1tcgam2eqvcepc21s80qr@4ax.com...
There is Hate in the World and There is also a Supernatural Enemy
There is hate in the world. The rest is dramatic license.
Nope!
JESUS IS THE CREATOR.
That's part of the dramatic lisence. Even the upper case is evidence.
.
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| User: "John Baker" |
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| Title: Re: The Atheist Debate! |
06 Aug 2007 06:12:51 PM |
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"U2" <u2_0202@NOThotmail.com> wrote in message
news:saWdnbodGtKrqTbbnZ2dnUVZ_hqdnZ2d@giganews.com...
The Atheist Debate
I received a letter from an atheist over the weekend. He claimed that it
was perfectly logical to be an atheist, that he was just as moral as any
Christian. I asked him this simple question: " Given the basic assumptions
of "militant atheism," if somebody put a bullet in your brain, would that
person have done anything wrong?" He responded with this:
If you think that as an atheist that I do not believe murder is wrong then
you have no real understanding of what it means to be an atheist. The
entire term "militant atheism" is a non-sequitur invented to label the
people who do not wish to be forced to either sanction with their tax
dollars or to honor your prehistoric beliefs. We simply wish to live in a
free society without being pressed into accepting the silly beliefs and
practices that you do. However, I would fight just as hard for your right
to believe whatever the heck you want as long as it doesn't infringe upon
me. I also do not approve of your beliefs or lifestyle. I just realize
that I have no right to tell anyone how to live.
Nearly every atheist I've encountered does not get it. Yes, they are
(mostly) moral people. That's not the issue. I want to know how an atheist
accounts for his moral worldview.
We derive our moral worldview from respect for others. Something Christians
wouldn't understand.
.
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| User: "Scot" |
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| Title: Re: The Atheist Debate! |
06 Aug 2007 09:32:44 PM |
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"John Baker" <nunya@bizniz.net> wrote in message
news:46b7aad4$0$4721$4c368faf@roadrunner.com...
"U2" <u2_0202@NOThotmail.com> wrote in message
news:saWdnbodGtKrqTbbnZ2dnUVZ_hqdnZ2d@giganews.com...
The Atheist Debate
I received a letter from an atheist over the weekend. He claimed that it
was perfectly logical to be an atheist, that he was just as moral as any
Christian. I asked him this simple question: " Given the basic
assumptions
of "militant atheism," if somebody put a bullet in your brain, would that
person have done anything wrong?" He responded with this:
If you think that as an atheist that I do not believe murder is wrong
then
you have no real understanding of what it means to be an atheist. The
entire term "militant atheism" is a non-sequitur invented to label the
people who do not wish to be forced to either sanction with their tax
dollars or to honor your prehistoric beliefs. We simply wish to live in a
free society without being pressed into accepting the silly beliefs and
practices that you do. However, I would fight just as hard for your right
to believe whatever the heck you want as long as it doesn't infringe upon
me. I also do not approve of your beliefs or lifestyle. I just realize
that I have no right to tell anyone how to live.
Nearly every atheist I've encountered does not get it. Yes, they are
(mostly) moral people. That's not the issue. I want to know how an
atheist
accounts for his moral worldview.
We derive our moral worldview from respect for others. Something
Christians wouldn't understand.
Once upon a time, Christians had an idea:
"Do unto others, as you would have them do unto you."
That is a "respect for others" sort of thing.
.
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| User: "Irv Hyatt" |
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| Title: Re: The Atheist Debate! |
07 Aug 2007 09:30:17 AM |
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"Scot" <bite2@me.net> wrote in message news:gRQti.5543$J13.3472@trnddc02...
"John Baker" <nunya@bizniz.net> wrote in message
news:46b7aad4$0$4721$4c368faf@roadrunner.com...
"U2" <u2_0202@NOThotmail.com> wrote in message
news:saWdnbodGtKrqTbbnZ2dnUVZ_hqdnZ2d@giganews.com...
The Atheist Debate
I received a letter from an atheist over the weekend. He claimed that it
was perfectly logical to be an atheist, that he was just as moral as any
Christian. I asked him this simple question: " Given the basic
assumptions
of "militant atheism," if somebody put a bullet in your brain, would
that
person have done anything wrong?" He responded with this:
If you think that as an atheist that I do not believe murder is wrong
then
you have no real understanding of what it means to be an atheist. The
entire term "militant atheism" is a non-sequitur invented to label the
people who do not wish to be forced to either sanction with their tax
dollars or to honor your prehistoric beliefs. We simply wish to live in
a
free society without being pressed into accepting the silly beliefs and
practices that you do. However, I would fight just as hard for your
right
to believe whatever the heck you want as long as it doesn't infringe
upon
me. I also do not approve of your beliefs or lifestyle. I just realize
that I have no right to tell anyone how to live.
Nearly every atheist I've encountered does not get it. Yes, they are
(mostly) moral people. That's not the issue. I want to know how an
atheist
accounts for his moral worldview.
We derive our moral worldview from respect for others. Something
Christians wouldn't understand.
Once upon a time, Christians had an idea:
"Do unto others, as you would have them do unto you."
That is a "respect for others" sort of thing.
Now merely a cliche for the christers. They don't have to respect anyone
because after they 'sin', Jesus forgives them. The main reason they are
full of hot air and armchair do-gooders.
Atheists don't need a cliche or a book to know it feels 'right' to be good
to others.
.
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| User: "yowie" |
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| Title: Re: The Atheist Debate! |
07 Aug 2007 04:08:44 PM |
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On Tue, 07 Aug 2007 07:30:17 -0700, Irv Hyatt wrote:
"Scot" <bite2@me.net> wrote in message news:gRQti.5543$J13.3472@trnddc02...
"John Baker" <nunya@bizniz.net> wrote in message
news:46b7aad4$0$4721$4c368faf@roadrunner.com...
"U2" <u2_0202@NOThotmail.com> wrote in message
news:saWdnbodGtKrqTbbnZ2dnUVZ_hqdnZ2d@giganews.com...
The Atheist Debate
I received a letter from an atheist over the weekend. He claimed that it
was perfectly logical to be an atheist, that he was just as moral as any
Christian. I asked him this simple question: " Given the basic
assumptions
of "militant atheism," if somebody put a bullet in your brain, would
that
person have done anything wrong?" He responded with this:
If you think that as an atheist that I do not believe murder is wrong
then
you have no real understanding of what it means to be an atheist. The
entire term "militant atheism" is a non-sequitur invented to label the
people who do not wish to be forced to either sanction with their tax
dollars or to honor your prehistoric beliefs. We simply wish to live in
a
free society without being pressed into accepting the silly beliefs and
practices that you do. However, I would fight just as hard for your
right
to believe whatever the heck you want as long as it doesn't infringe
upon
me. I also do not approve of your beliefs or lifestyle. I just realize
that I have no right to tell anyone how to live.
Nearly every atheist I've encountered does not get it. Yes, they are
(mostly) moral people. That's not the issue. I want to know how an
atheist
accounts for his moral worldview.
We derive our moral worldview from respect for others. Something
Christians wouldn't understand.
Once upon a time, Christians had an idea:
"Do unto others, as you would have them do unto you."
Tsze-kung asked, saying, "Is there one word which may serve as a rule of
practice for all one's life?" The Master said, "Is not RECIPROCITY such a
word? What you do not want done to yourself, do not do to others."
-The Analects of Confucius c500 BCE
That is a "respect for others" sort of thing.
Now merely a cliche for the christers.
And a stolen one at that.
They don't have to respect anyone
because after they 'sin', Jesus forgives them. The main reason they are
full of hot air and armchair do-gooders.
Atheists don't need a cliche or a book to know it feels 'right' to be good
to others.
.
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| User: "St. Jackanapes" |
|
| Title: Re: The Atheist Debate! |
07 Aug 2007 05:08:46 PM |
|
|
yowie held us spellbound with...
On Tue, 07 Aug 2007 07:30:17 -0700, Irv Hyatt wrote:
"Scot" <bite2@me.net> wrote in message news:gRQti.5543$J13.3472@trnddc02...
"John Baker" <nunya@bizniz.net> wrote in message
news:46b7aad4$0$4721$4c368faf@roadrunner.com...
"U2" <u2_0202@NOThotmail.com> wrote in message
news:saWdnbodGtKrqTbbnZ2dnUVZ_hqdnZ2d@giganews.com...
The Atheist Debate
I received a letter from an atheist over the weekend. He claimed that it
was perfectly logical to be an atheist, that he was just as moral as any
Christian. I asked him this simple question: " Given the basic
assumptions
of "militant atheism," if somebody put a bullet in your brain, would
that
person have done anything wrong?" He responded with this:
If you think that as an atheist that I do not believe murder is wrong
then
you have no real understanding of what it means to be an atheist. The
entire term "militant atheism" is a non-sequitur invented to label the
people who do not wish to be forced to either sanction with their tax
dollars or to honor your prehistoric beliefs. We simply wish to live in
a
free society without being pressed into accepting the silly beliefs and
practices that you do. However, I would fight just as hard for your
right
to believe whatever the heck you want as long as it doesn't infringe
upon
me. I also do not approve of your beliefs or lifestyle. I just realize
that I have no right to tell anyone how to live.
Nearly every atheist I've encountered does not get it. Yes, they are
(mostly) moral people. That's not the issue. I want to know how an
atheist
accounts for his moral worldview.
We derive our moral worldview from respect for others. Something
Christians wouldn't understand.
Once upon a time, Christians had an idea:
"Do unto others, as you would have them do unto you."
Tsze-kung asked, saying, "Is there one word which may serve as a rule of
practice for all one's life?" The Master said, "Is not RECIPROCITY such a
word? What you do not want done to yourself, do not do to others."
-The Analects of Confucius c500 BCE
That is a "respect for others" sort of thing.
Now merely a cliche for the christers.
And a stolen one at that.
The entire fucking religion was purloined! Stolen, lock, stock & barrel.
--
St. Jackanapes
http://www.jackanapes.ws
============================
.
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| User: "John Baker" |
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| Title: Re: The Atheist Debate! |
09 Aug 2007 05:31:39 AM |
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On Tue, 07 Aug 2007 02:32:44 GMT, "Scot" <bite2@me.net> wrote:
"John Baker" <nunya@bizniz.net> wrote in message
news:46b7aad4$0$4721$4c368faf@roadrunner.com...
"U2" <u2_0202@NOThotmail.com> wrote in message
news:saWdnbodGtKrqTbbnZ2dnUVZ_hqdnZ2d@giganews.com...
The Atheist Debate
I received a letter from an atheist over the weekend. He claimed that it
was perfectly logical to be an atheist, that he was just as moral as any
Christian. I asked him this simple question: " Given the basic
assumptions
of "militant atheism," if somebody put a bullet in your brain, would that
person have done anything wrong?" He responded with this:
If you think that as an atheist that I do not believe murder is wrong
then
you have no real understanding of what it means to be an atheist. The
entire term "militant atheism" is a non-sequitur invented to label the
people who do not wish to be forced to either sanction with their tax
dollars or to honor your prehistoric beliefs. We simply wish to live in a
free society without being pressed into accepting the silly beliefs and
practices that you do. However, I would fight just as hard for your right
to believe whatever the heck you want as long as it doesn't infringe upon
me. I also do not approve of your beliefs or lifestyle. I just realize
that I have no right to tell anyone how to live.
Nearly every atheist I've encountered does not get it. Yes, they are
(mostly) moral people. That's not the issue. I want to know how an
atheist
accounts for his moral worldview.
We derive our moral worldview from respect for others. Something
Christians wouldn't understand.
Once upon a time, Christians had an idea:
"Do unto others, as you would have them do unto you."
That is a "respect for others" sort of thing.
Actually, a Babylonian named Hammurabi had that idea - or was the
first to write it down and make it the foundation of the law of the
land, anyway. Christians "borrowed" it, along with most of the other
ideas that make up their patchwork quilt of a religion.
It's still a good idea, no matter who first thought of it.
Unfortunately, most Christians, at least most of the fundies, have
long since forgotten it.
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| User: "Conspiracy of Doves" |
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| Title: Re: The Atheist Debate! |
09 Aug 2007 10:00:17 AM |
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On Aug 9, 6:31 am, John Baker <nu...@bizniz.net> wrote:
On Tue, 07 Aug 2007 02:32:44 GMT, "Scot" <bi...@me.net> wrote:
"John Baker" <nu...@bizniz.net> wrote in message
news:46b7aad4$0$4721$4c368faf@roadrunner.com...
"U2" <u2_0...@NOThotmail.com> wrote in message
news:saWdnbodGtKrqTbbnZ2dnUVZ_hqdnZ2d@giganews.com...
The Atheist Debate
I received a letter from an atheist over the weekend. He claimed that it
was perfectly logical to be an atheist, that he was just as moral as any
Christian. I asked him this simple question: " Given the basic
assumptions
of "militant atheism," if somebody put a bullet in your brain, would that
person have done anything wrong?" He responded with this:
If you think that as an atheist that I do not believe murder is wrong
then
you have no real understanding of what it means to be an atheist. The
entire term "militant atheism" is a non-sequitur invented to label the
people who do not wish to be forced to either sanction with their tax
dollars or to honor your prehistoric beliefs. We simply wish to live in a
free society without being pressed into accepting the silly beliefs and
practices that you do. However, I would fight just as hard for your right
to believe whatever the heck you want as long as it doesn't infringe upon
me. I also do not approve of your beliefs or lifestyle. I just realize
that I have no right to tell anyone how to live.
Nearly every atheist I've encountered does not get it. Yes, they are
(mostly) moral people. That's not the issue. I want to know how an
atheist
accounts for his moral worldview.
We derive our moral worldview from respect for others. Something
Christians wouldn't understand.
Once upon a time, Christians had an idea:
"Do unto others, as you would have them do unto you."
That is a "respect for others" sort of thing.
Actually, a Babylonian named Hammurabi had that idea - or was the
first to write it down and make it the foundation of the law of the
land, anyway. Christians "borrowed" it, along with most of the other
ideas that make up their patchwork quilt of a religion.
It's still a good idea, no matter who first thought of it.
Unfortunately, most Christians, at least most of the fundies, have
long since forgotten it.
Confucius as well. Later than Hammurabi, but earlier than jesus.
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| User: "Scot" |
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| Title: Re: The Atheist Debate! |
30 Jul 2007 11:56:44 AM |
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"U2" <u2_0202@NOThotmail.com> wrote in message
news:saWdnbodGtKrqTbbnZ2dnUVZ_hqdnZ2d@giganews.com...
The Atheist Debate
Yes [Atheists], they are
(mostly) moral people. That's not the issue. I want to know how an atheist
accounts for his moral worldview. Why is it murder for one human being to
kill another human being, but it's not murder for a dog to kill another
dog? Why is it wrong for one group of randomly formed atoms to extinguish
the "life force" of another group of randomly formed atoms?
Excellent question. I'll try to answer it in another post, but first let me
turn the question around:
How do theists account for their moral worldview?
Is it:
God is the ultimate judge. God decides what is right
and wrong and God will punish those who do wrong
(either during their lives or after their death).
?
Well, as we look around the world we see that plenty of people do things
that we consider wrong, and we don't see anything happen to them. Maybe
God will punish them after their death... But that doesn't really stop
criminals from doing wrong while they are alive, does it?
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| User: "Jim Austin" |
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| Title: Re: The Atheist Debate! |
28 Jul 2007 12:20:36 PM |
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On Jul 28, 5:18 am, "U2" <u2_0...@NOThotmail.com> wrote:
<Snip> Never mind what this guy wrote.
Christians believe it's axiomatic that morality is religious-based.
Yet when we see Christianity in its pure and undiluted state, as in
Christianity in the raw as it existed during the dark ages, we see
that Christianity results in unmitigated cruelty, savagery and
barbarism. The extent that today's Christianity is benign and
civilized is entirely due to influences outside of religion, to purely
secular influences.
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| User: "Danwood@gnet" |
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| Title: Re: The Atheist Debate! |
28 Jul 2007 02:05:53 PM |
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Jim Austin wrote:
On Jul 28, 5:18 am, "U2" <u2_0...@NOThotmail.com> wrote:
<Snip> Never mind what this guy wrote.
Christians believe it's axiomatic that morality is religious-based.
Yet when we see Christianity in its pure and undiluted state, as in
Christianity in the raw as it existed during the dark ages, we see
that Christianity results in unmitigated cruelty, savagery and
barbarism. The extent that today's Christianity is benign and
civilized is entirely due to influences outside of religion, to purely
secular influences.
There are vile depraved cruel people who kill people with guns. You
don't blame the gun. People kill people. It's the same with religion.
There is cruelty, savagery and evil don by people. This isn't religion
it's people who did these horrible deeds. Religions are not teaching,
advocating nor are they supporting such behavior. Indeed they
denounce it. Although some people today are comitting suicide and
murdering dozen of innocent bystanders at the same time. And they do
this in the name of Allah.
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| User: "RU Liken IT Yet!" |
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| Title: Re: The Atheist Debate! |
28 Jul 2007 02:54:48 PM |
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"Danwood@gnet" <noreply@noreply.com> wrote in message news:46AB9391.9070803@noreply.com...
Jim Austin wrote:
The Great White Throne Judgment of God
11 Then I saw a great white ?a?throne and Him who sat upon it,
from whose ?1?presence ?b?earth and heaven fled away, and ?c?no place
was found for them.
12 And I saw the dead, the ?a?great and the small, standing
before the throne, and ?1??b?books were opened; and another ?2?book
was opened, which is ?c?the book of life; and the dead ?a?were judged
from the things which were written in the ?1?books, ?d?according to
their deeds.
13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it, and ?a?death
and Hades ?b?gave up the dead which were in them; and they were
judged, every one of them ?c?according to their deeds.
14 Then ?a?death and Hades were thrown into ?b?the lake of fire.
This is the ?c?second death, the lake of fire.
15 And if ?1?anyone's name was not found written in ?a?the book
of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.
[1]
The Great White Throne is what men mistakenly call the general judgment.
It is general only in the sense that all the lost of all ages are raised
to be judged here. All who are saved have been raised in the first
resurrection. Even the tribulation saints had part in the first
resurrection. This is the second resurrection in which the lost are raised
to be given an equitable, fair, and just evaluation of their works in
respect to their salvation.
A man on his deathbed said to me, "Preacher, you just don't need to talk
to me about the future. I'll take my chances. I believe God is going to be
just and righteous and let me present my works."
I told him, "You are right. He is just and righteous, and He will let you
present your works. That is what He says He is going to do. But I have
news for you: At that judgment nobody is saved, because you cannot be
saved by your works. When you stand in the white light of the righteous
presence of God, your little works will seem so puny that they won't
amount to anything at all."
The other day our little grandson brought to his grandmother some flowers
that he had picked. I want to tell you, they were a sad looking bunch of
flowers. With great pride he gave them to his grandmother, and his
grandmother patted him on the head and thanked him for the lovely flowers.
As I looked at that scene, I could not help but smile, but I also
immediately recognized how solemn it is going to be when a lot of these
goody-goody boys stand with their little, bitty bouquets in the presence
of a Christ whom they have rejected. They expect that He will be like a
grandmother who will pat them on the head and say, "What a smart boy you
were!" My friend, this is solemn, and this is serious. You need Him as
Savior in order to stand in His presence; you need to be clothed with the
righteousness of Christ. Don't you know that without this we are sinners
and we are lost?
We like to compare ourselves with other people: "I'm as good as the
Joneses down the street." Sure you are, but you ought to know about the
Joneses! It was Samuel Johnson who said, "Every man knows that of himself
which he dares not tell his dearest friend." You know yourself, don't you?
You know things that you have covered up and smothered that you would not
reveal for anything in the world. The Lord Jesus is going to bring them
out at this judgment; while you are presenting your little bouquet, He is
going to tell you about yourself. My friend, you need a Savior today.
This is the Great White Throne, and the holiness of this throne is
revealed in the reaction of heaven and earth to it: "from whose face the
earth and the heaven fled away." Of this, John F. Walvoord, in his book
The Revelation of Jesus Christ, comments:
The most natural interpretation of the fact that earth and heaven flee
away is that the present earth and heaven are destroyed and will be
replaced by the new heaven and new earth. This is also confirmed by the
additional statement in 21:1 where John sees a new heaven and a new earth
replacing the first heaven and the first earth which have passed away.
The One seated on the throne is the Lord Jesus Christ: "For the Father
judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son.. For as the
Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in
himself; And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he
is the Son of man. Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the
which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, And shall come
forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they
that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation" (John 5:22,
26-29).
What is the work of God? It is to ". believe on him whom he hath sent"
(John 6:29). Those who have done good are they who have accepted Christ,
and they come forth unto the resurrection of life-that is the first
resurrection. They who have done evil come forth unto the resurrection of
damnation and condemnation-that is the Great White Throne judgment.
[2]
Will believers stand before God at this White Throne Judgment?
No.
If you're a Christian, this judgment doesn't apply to you, for you were
judged when Christ was on another throne-not a white one, but a wooden
one; when He wore a crown not of gold, but of thorns as He died to cleanse
you from every sin you ever have or ever will commit.
[3]
If you're a Christian, your name is written in the Book of Life. The names
of those who said, "I didn't buy into that Christian stuff they were
always trying to cram down my throat," or, "I needed my space," or, "I had
to explore various aspects of spirituality," aren't.
"But I lived a pretty good life," they'll protest.
Yet the books wherein are recorded the reasons for everything they ever
did will prove otherwise..
"I was an outstanding member of Rotary."
Yes-but the books indicate it was to make some business contacts.
"Oh, but I gave blood."
Perhaps-but the books indicate you were paid twenty-five dollars in
return.
"But I saved the whales, marched for peace, built homes for the homeless."
All well and good-but you did so to hear the applause of men.
You see, God made us in such a way that we are spared from remembering the
sins we have committed. He let us remember enough sin to make us aware of
our need for salvation-but not every motive, every word of gossip, every
cutting comment, every angry feeling. When the books are opened, the utter
weight of all one's sin will come to light. God sends no one to hell. By
the time Volume 167 of one's sins is opened, it's as if he will cry,
"Depart from me for I am a sinful man," and will send himself to the lake
of fire.
That's why I am so glad I'm saved. The Bible says the "handwriting of
ordinances that was against us"-all of our mistakes, sins, and
failures-were blotted out by the blood of Jesus Christ (Colossians 2:14).
In other words, the pages and pages containing my sin are all illegible
because they're covered with the red blood of Jesus.
[4]
Maybe you're saying, "What will happen at the end of the world is all very
interesting, but the bottom line is that I'm a believer, and I know I'm
going to heaven. I'm far more concerned about the problems facing me right
now."
So was John. The Book of Revelation was written specifically to a group of
people facing far greater problems than you'll ever face. And the message
it contains is as vital for us as it was to them: It's not over yet. Satan
and death itself will be cast into the lake of fire. They lose. And all
who embrace what Jesus did on the Cross when He plunged into hell on their
behalf-all whose names are written in the Book of Life-win.
[5]
20:11 Next we are introduced to the great white throne judgment. It is
great because of the issues involved and white because of the perfection
and purity of the decisions handed down. The Lord Jesus is sitting as
Judge (John 5:22, 27). The expression from whose face the earth and the
heaven fled away indicates that this judgment takes place in eternity,
after the destruction of the present creation (2 Pet. 3:10).
20:12 The dead, small and great, stand before God. These are the
unbelievers of all ages. Two sets of books are opened. The Book of Life
contains the names of all who have been redeemed by the precious blood of
Christ. The other books contain a detailed record of the works of the
unsaved. No one who appears at this judgment is registered in the Book of
Life. The fact that his name is missing condemns him, but the record of
his evil works determines the degree of his punishment.
20:13 The sea will yield up the bodies of those who have been buried in
it. The graves, here represented by Death, will deliver up the bodies of
all the unsaved who have been interred. Hades will give up the souls of
all who died in unbelief. The bodies and souls will be reunited to stand
before the Judge.
Just as there will be degrees of reward in heaven, so there will be
degrees of punishment in hell. This will be based on their works.
20:14 When we read that Death and Hades are cast into the lake of fire, it
means the complete persons: spirit, soul, and body. The text explains that
this is the second death, and the ?NKJV? margin adds, the lake of fire.
There is a difference between Hades and hell. For the unconverted who have
died, Hades is a disembodied state of conscious punishment. It is a sort
of holding tank, an intermediate condition where they await the Judgment
of the Great White Throne.
For believers who have died, Hades is a state of disembodied blessedness
in heaven, awaiting the resurrection and glorification of the body. When
Jesus died, He went to Paradise (Luke 23:43), which Paul equates with the
third heaven (2 Cor. 12:2, 4), the dwelling place of God. In Acts 2:27 the
Lord's disembodied state is called Hades. God did not leave His soul in
Hades, but clothed it with a glorified body.
Hell is the final prison of the wicked dead. It is the same as the lake of
fire, Gehenna, and the second death.
20:15 The deciding factor at this judgment is whether one's name is
written in the Book of Life. Actually if a person's name had been
inscribed there, he would have already been a part of the first
resurrection. So this verse applies only to those who stand before the
Great WhiteThrone.
[6]
Yes, my friend, you will be able to get a fair trial there. Your life is
on tape, and Christ happens to have the tape. When He plays it back, you
will be able to listen to it, and it is not going to sound good to you, by
any means. Are you willing to stand before God and have Him play the tape
of your life? I think He will have it on a television screen so that you
can watch it, too. Do you think your life can stand the test? I do not
know about you, but I could not make it. Thank God for His grace-"For by
grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the
gift of God" (Eph. 2:8).
The dead are classified as the small and the great. They are all lost, for
evidently none have their names written in the Book of Life. They had
never turned to God for salvation. The Lord Jesus said that in His
generation ". ye will not come to me, that ye might have life" (John
5:40). These folk standing before His throne had not come.
These are books which record the works of all individuals. God keeps the
tapes, and He will play them at the right time. There will be a lot of
politicians who will have their tapes played in that day, and there will
be a lot of public figures-even preachers-who will have their tapes played
in that day, and they are not going to be happy about it. If you are
saved, you are not going to stand before this judgment. Your works are to
be judged as a child of God at the judgment seat of Christ, which will be
for the purpose of rewards (see 2 Cor. 5:10). The Great White Throne
judgment is the judgment of the lost. Multitudes want to be judged
according to their works. This is their opportunity. The judgment is just,
but no one is saved by works.
"And the sea gave up the dead that were in it." Multitudes who have gone
to a watery grave in which the chemicals of their bodies have been
dissolved in the waters of the sea will be raised. God will have no
problem with this. After all, they are only atoms. He just has to put them
together again. He did it once; He can do it again. The graves on earth
will give up their bodies; and hades, the place where the spirits of the
lost go, will disgorge for this judgment.
[7]
And death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second
death even the lake of fire. And if any were not found written in the book
of life, he was cast into the lake of fire.
You will notice that in my translation I have changed "death and hell were
cast into the lake of fire" to "death and Hades were cast into the lake of
fire." Sheol or hades (translated hell in the New Testament) is the place
of the unseen dead and is divided into two compartments: paradise and the
place of torment (see Luke 16:19-31). Paradise was emptied when Christ
took the Old Testament believers with Him at His ascension. "Wherefore he
saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave
gifts unto men. (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also
descended first into the lower parts of the earth? He that descended is
the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill
all things)" (Eph. 4:8-10). Christ did two things: He gave gifts to men
down here, but He also took with Him to heaven those Old Testament saints
who had died and were in the place called paradise. But the place of
torment will deliver up the lost at the judgment at the Great White
Throne. All who stand at this judgment are lost, and we are told that they
are cast into the lake of fire, which is the second death. The Lord also
called it "outer darkness." We believe that this is symbolic of something
worse than literal fire or outer darkness. It is eternal separation from
God, for death means separation.
[8]
"Death," the great final enemy of man, is finally removed from the scene.
No longer will it be said, "In Adam all die" (see 1 Cor. 15:22). Death is
personified in this case, for it is man's great enemy. In the Old
Testament we read: "I will ransom them from the power of the grave; I will
redeem them from death: O death, I will be thy plagues; O grave, I will be
thy destruction: repentance shall be hid from mine eyes" (Hos. 13:14).
And Paul writes: "The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.. O
death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?" (1 Cor. 15:26,
55).
"Hades," the prison of lost souls, is likewise cast into the lake of fire.
The lost are no longer in hades but in the lake of fire. This is where
Satan, the wild Beast, the False Prophet, and their minions were
consigned. If man will not accept the life of God, he must accept the only
other alternative: eternal association with Satan. God never created man
to be put in this place, but there is no other place for him. Hell was
created for the Devil and his angels. I take it that it is a place where
God never goes. The second death means eternal and absolute separation
from God.
[9]
EMPTY WORDS
The false teachers talked a lot but had no substance; their words were
lies. Life is filled with promises. We build families on promises, spend
careers on promises, and trust God himself for the great promise of a
joyous future. If promises fail, life collapses.
Do your best to make good on your word. So many people depend on your
integrity. So much happiness rides on your honesty. Don't promise what you
can't or won't deliver, as did the false teachers. Their lives were wasted
because their promises were empty.
[10]
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
a Rev 4:2 1 Lit face b Rev 6:14; 21:1 c Dan 2:35; Rev 12:8 a Rev 11:18 1
Or scrolls b Dan 7:10 2 Or scroll c Rev 3:5; 20:15 d Matt 16:27; Rev 2:23;
20:13 a 1 Cor 15:26; Rev 1:18; 6:8; 21:4 b Is 26:19 c Matt 16:27; Rev
2:23; 20:12 a 1 Cor 15:26; Rev 1:18; 6:8; 21:4 b Rev 19:20; 20:10, 15 c
Rev 20:6 1 Lit anyone was a Rev 3:5; 20:12
[1]New American Standard Bible : 1995 update. 1995 (Re 20:11-15). LaHabra,
CA: The Lockman Foundation.
[2]McGee, J. V. (1997, c1981). Thru the Bible commentary. Based on the
Thru the Bible radio program. (electronic ed.) (5:1059-1060). Nashville:
Thomas Nelson.
[3]Courson, J. (2003). Jon Courson's Application Commentary (1784).
Nashville, TN: Thomas Nelson.
[4]Courson, J. (2003). Jon Courson's Application Commentary (1784).
Nashville, TN: Thomas Nelson.
[5]Courson, J. (2003). Jon Courson's Application Commentary (1784).
Nashville, TN: Thomas Nelson.
NKJV New King James Version
[6]MacDonald, W., & Farstad, A. (1997, c1995). Believer's Bible Commentary
: Old and New Testaments (Re 20:11). Nashville: Thomas Nelson.
[7]McGee, J. V. (1997, c1981). Thru the Bible commentary. Based on the
Thru the Bible radio program. (electronic ed.) (5:1060-1061). Nashville:
Thomas Nelson.
[8]McGee, J. V. (1997, c1981). Thru the Bible commentary. Based on the
Thru the Bible radio program. (electronic ed.) (5:1061). Nashville: Thomas
Nelson.
[9]McGee, J. V. (1997, c1981). Thru the Bible commentary. Based on the
Thru the Bible radio program. (electronic ed.) (5:1061-1062). Nashville:
Thomas Nelson.
[10]Barton, B. B. (1995). 1 Peter, 2 Peter, Jude. Life application Bible
commentary (253). Wheaton, Ill.: Tyndale House Pub.
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| User: "Jim Austin" |
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| Title: Re: The Atheist Debate! |
28 Jul 2007 07:56:06 PM |
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On Jul 28, 12:05 pm, "Danwood@gnet" <nore...@noreply.com> wrote:
Jim Austin wrote:
On Jul 28, 5:18 am, "U2" <u2_0...@NOThotmail.com> wrote:
<Snip> Never mind what this guy wrote.
Christians believe it's axiomatic that morality is religious-based.
Yet when we see Christianity in its pure and undiluted state, as in
Christianity in the raw as it existed during the dark ages, we see
that Christianity results in unmitigated cruelty, savagery and
barbarism. The extent that today's Christianity is benign and
civilized is entirely due to influences outside of religion, to purely
secular influences.
There are vile depraved cruel people who kill people with guns. You
don't blame the gun. People kill people. It's the same with religion.
There is cruelty, savagery and evil don by people. This isn't religion
it's people who did these horrible deeds. Religions are not teaching,
advocating nor are they supporting such behavior. Indeed they
denounce it. Although some people today are comitting suicide and
murdering dozen of innocent bystanders at the same time. And they do
this in the name of Allah.
Actually, it is religion.
Religious people kill with enthusiasm. Religious people feel righteous
killing people. Religious people do not blink at filling the
countryside with bodies piled high.
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| User: "Al Klein" |
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| Title: Re: The Atheist Debate! |
29 Jul 2007 11:53:24 PM |
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On Sat, 28 Jul 2007 15:05:53 -0400, "Danwood@gnet"
<noreply@noreply.com> wrote:
There are vile depraved cruel people who kill people with guns. You
don't blame the gun. People kill people. It's the same with religion.
Guns don't motivate people to kill, they provide the means. Religion
provides the motivation.
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| User: "Hatter" |
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| Title: Re: The Atheist Debate! |
24 Aug 2007 07:25:37 AM |
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On Jul 30, 12:53 am, Al Klein <ruk...@pern.invalid> wrote:
On Sat, 28 Jul 2007 15:05:53 -0400, "Danwood@gnet"
<nore...@noreply.com> wrote:
There are vile depraved cruel people who kill people with guns. You
don't blame the gun. People kill people. It's the same with religion.
Guns don't motivate people to kill, they provide the means. Religion
provides the motivation.
or at least the "I can get forgiven later" justification
Hatter
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| User: "Al Klein" |
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| Title: Re: The Atheist Debate! |
24 Aug 2007 07:43:21 AM |
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On Fri, 24 Aug 2007 05:25:37 -0700, Hatter <Hatter23@gmail.com> wrote:
On Jul 30, 12:53 am, Al Klein <ruk...@pern.invalid> wrote:
On Sat, 28 Jul 2007 15:05:53 -0400, "Danwood@gnet"
<nore...@noreply.com> wrote:
There are vile depraved cruel people who kill people with guns. You
don't blame the gun. People kill people. It's the same with religion.
Guns don't motivate people to kill, they provide the means. Religion
provides the motivation.
or at least the "I can get forgiven later" justification
For Christians. For some others it's, "Killing them is required by my
god."
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| User: "Medusa" |
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| Title: Re: The Atheist Debate! |
28 Jul 2007 12:19:24 PM |
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