| Topic: |
Religions > Atheism |
| User: |
"Bill" |
| Date: |
30 Jan 2005 04:46:04 PM |
| Object: |
The Bible myth |
I keep seeing people quoting from the Bible as though it was proof or a
fact.
There is NO objective evidence that any of the Bibles are the word of
ANY God.
There are no originals still in existence. They are all copies with
alterations, additions and deletions to suite the transcribers. Remember the
printing press was not even invented until the 5 Th. Century and the Bibles
date back over 4,000 years.
Here is a list of ENGLISH translations of the Bible. Which are the correct
ones? And were the copies they translated from accurate translations of the
originals?
The evidence is that these Bibles, written by over forty men over a period
of some 2500 years are nothing but a combination of history, myths, folklore
and legends. There is NO
objective evidence that they are accurate history or the words of any God.
New American Standard
New International Version
Amplified Bible
New Living Translation
King James Version
Contemporary English Version
New King James Version
21 St. Century King James Version
New International Version
American Standard Version
Holman Christian Version
New Life Version
Darby Translation
Young's Literal Translation
New International Readers Version
World English Bible
--
Bill
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| User: "Bill Gamelson" |
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| Title: Re: The Bible myth |
30 Jan 2005 07:26:39 PM |
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They're no good. Moses' handwriting was so
bad nobody can read it.
ROFL!!!
--
Luk 17:3 Take heed to yourselves: if thy brother sin, rebuke him; and if he
repent, forgive him.
Luk 17:4 And if he sin against thee seven times in the day, and seven times
turn again to thee, saying, I repent; thou shalt forgive him.
www.live365.com/stations/bgamelson?play
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| User: "skyeyes" |
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| Title: Re: The Bible myth |
31 Jan 2005 05:20:13 PM |
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Bill Gamelson wrote:
Actually, I believe there are. Don't the original Dead Sea =ADscrolls
still
exist somewhere and are being preserved?
The Dead Sea Scrolls are not comprised of all the books in the OT. If
memory serves, one is a passage from Isaiah, one has some of the
Psalms, and there's a copy of Solomon's Song. (There may be a couple
more, but I don't remember what they are; there's nothing like copies
of each book of the OT.) The remaining scrolls are copies of the same
passages, some non-religious writings - lists, tallies, rules of the
community, and so forth - and some esoteric religous stuff that is
Persian in origin and doesn't appear in the Bible, although it might
have influenced some Biblical passages.
Brenda Nelson, A.A.#34
EAC Professor of Feline Thermometrics and Cat-Herder
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| User: "Fatman" |
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| Title: Re: The Bible myth |
31 Jan 2005 04:03:03 PM |
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Bill Gamelson wrote:
Sure, and that's why we have 16 different English translations
alone. And there are no originals to verify the accuracy of the
early copies.
Actually, I believe there are. Don't the original Dead Sea scrolls
still exist somewhere and are being preserved?
The Dead Sea scrolls are all old testament writings. The main
apologetics claim using the Dead Sea scrolls is that they show the
accuracy of the current witting compared to them. This is mostly the
case. There are some copy errors and a few of them are significantly
different.
http://www.infidels.org/library/magazines/tsr/1990/4/4jerem90.html
Fatman
--
"Once again decent citizens will be able to enter this house of
worship, kneel down in front of a nearly-naked man hanging from a
wooden apparatus by a series of gruesome body piercings, and engage in
their bizarre practices of ritualized blood-drinking and cannibalism
without being assaulted by graphic images of attractive young women
with bare breasts."-- A. Whitney Brown, "The Daily Show"
"The invisible and the non-existent look very much alike."--Delos B.
McKown, PhD, US professor, philosopher, author, former clergyman
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| User: "Bill Gamelson" |
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| Title: Re: The Bible myth |
31 Jan 2005 04:45:47 PM |
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The Dead Sea scrolls are all old testament writings. The main
apologetics claim using the Dead Sea scrolls is that they show the
accuracy of the current witting compared to them. This is mostly the
case. There are some copy errors and a few of them are significantly
different.
http://www.infidels.org/library/magazines/tsr/1990/4/4jerem90.html
Infidels? Is that not a word used by Muslims?
Check out this link if you want to know something about the Muslim faith and
the "Moon God" named Allah.
http://www.chick.com/reading/tracts/0042/0042_01.asp
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| User: "Sam" |
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| Title: Re: The Bible myth |
31 Jan 2005 08:30:47 PM |
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Bill Gamelson wrote:
The Dead Sea scrolls are all old testament writings. The main
apologetics claim using the Dead Sea scrolls is that they show the
accuracy of the current witting compared to them. This is mostly the
case. There are some copy errors and a few of them are significantly
different.
http://www.infidels.org/library/magazines/tsr/1990/4/4jerem90.html
Infidels? Is that not a word used by Muslims?
Check out this link if you want to know something about the Muslim faith and
the "Moon God" named Allah.
http://www.chick.com/reading/tracts/0042/0042_01.asp
allah is the same monotheistic sun god the other desert dwellers use
--
Sam
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| User: "Fatman" |
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| Title: Re: The Bible myth |
01 Feb 2005 01:37:40 PM |
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Bill Gamelson wrote:
The Dead Sea scrolls are all old testament writings. The main
apologetics claim using the Dead Sea scrolls is that they show the
accuracy of the current witting compared to them. This is mostly the
case. There are some copy errors and a few of them are significantly
different.
http://www.infidels.org/library/magazines/tsr/1990/4/4jerem90.html
Infidels? Is that not a word used by Muslims?
Are you aware of the etymology and common definitions of the word?
http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?book=Dictionary&va=infidel
Check out this link if you want to know something about the Muslim
faith and the "Moon God" named Allah.
http://www.chick.com/reading/tracts/0042/0042_01.asp
I am uninterested in any Christian propoganda. All religions are total
*****, I do not need links to prove it to me.
Fatman
--
"Once again decent citizens will be able to enter this house of
worship, kneel down in front of a nearly-naked man hanging from a
wooden apparatus by a series of gruesome body piercings, and engage in
their bizarre practices of ritualized blood-drinking and cannibalism
without being assaulted by graphic images of attractive young women
with bare breasts."-- A. Whitney Brown, "The Daily Show"
"The invisible and the non-existent look very much alike."--Delos B.
McKown, PhD, US professor, philosopher, author, former clergyman
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| User: "TCS" |
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| Title: Re: The Bible myth |
31 Jan 2005 05:07:46 PM |
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On Mon, 31 Jan 2005 16:45:47 -0600, Bill Gamelson <bgamelson@cox.net> wrote:
The Dead Sea scrolls are all old testament writings. The main
apologetics claim using the Dead Sea scrolls is that they show the
accuracy of the current witting compared to them. This is mostly the
case. There are some copy errors and a few of them are significantly
different.
http://www.infidels.org/library/magazines/tsr/1990/4/4jerem90.html
Infidels? Is that not a word used by Muslims?
moron
Check out this link if you want to know something about the Muslim faith and
the "Moon God" named Allah.
We probably know more about your mythology than you do.
http://www.chick.com/reading/tracts/0042/0042_01.asp
and a comedian
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| User: "Al Klein" |
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| Title: Re: The Bible myth |
31 Jan 2005 12:24:15 AM |
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On Sun, 30 Jan 2005 18:27:14 -0600, "Bill Gamelson"
<bgamelson@cox.net> said in alt.atheism:
Sure, and that's why we have 16 different English translations alone. And
there are no originals to verify the accuracy of the early copies.
Actually, I believe there are. Don't the original Dead Sea scrolls still
exist somewhere and are being preserved?
The DSS are the OT, not the NT. They're around 2,000 years old, and
the OT is at least 3,500 years old, so the DSS aren't the original OT.
The oldest manuscript we have that has anything to do with the NT has
been dated to around 125 AD, and that's only a scrap with part of one
sentence.
--
"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious
conviction."
- Blaise Pascal (1623-1662)
(random sig, produced by SigChanger)
rukbat at verizon dot net
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| User: "Gary Bohn" |
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| Title: Re: The Bible myth |
31 Jan 2005 10:55:43 AM |
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Al Klein <rukbat@pern.invalid> wrote in
news:rljrv0df8jvd3vvjk0t5goujjj4hb4u322@4ax.com:
On Sun, 30 Jan 2005 18:27:14 -0600, "Bill Gamelson"
<bgamelson@cox.net> said in alt.atheism:
Sure, and that's why we have 16 different English translations
alone. And there are no originals to verify the accuracy of the
early copies.
Actually, I believe there are. Don't the original Dead Sea scrolls
still exist somewhere and are being preserved?
The DSS are the OT, not the NT. They're around 2,000 years old, and
the OT is at least 3,500 years old, so the DSS aren't the original OT.
The oldest manuscript we have that has anything to do with the NT has
been dated to around 125 AD, and that's only a scrap with part of one
sentence.
The DSS also put the OT's putative inerrancy to question.
http://www.usc.edu/dept/LAS/wsrp/educational_site/dead_sea_scrolls/words_
moses.shtml
<quote>
" It was a common practice, as we can see from many of the Dead Sea
Scrolls, to take passages from the Bible and rework them in some way for
a particular religious purpose. The Words of Moses was perhaps intended
to serve as a reminder to the people to obey the commandments given by
God through Moses. It may also have served as a warning of what would
happen if they did not. "
Obviously if it has been 'reworked' some part of it is not inerrant.
It also shows that the DSS were written after some part of the bible no
longer extant.
--
apatriot #23, aa #1779, Grand Poobah, EAC Department of Oxygen
Deprivation
Responsible for brain damage everywhere!
Gary Bohn
Science rationally modifies a theory to fit evidence, creationism
emotionally modifies evidence to fit the bible.
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: The Bible myth |
31 Jan 2005 09:40:09 AM |
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Its really astonishing to read some of the direct aramaic-to-english
transliterations. There's a bunch of sites online with "the Lord's
Prayer". When you realize that there's no "Our Father", no "Heaven"
and and on and on, you realize just how corrupted these "literal words
of God" are.
sheesh.
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| User: "RainLover" |
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| Title: The Lord's Prayer - aramaic translation (was: the bible myth) |
01 Feb 2005 10:03:37 AM |
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On 31 Jan 2005 07:40:09 -0800, wrote:
This is from another thread but I thought it worthy of it's own.....
Its really astonishing to read some of the direct aramaic-to-english
transliterations. There's a bunch of sites online with "the Lord's
Prayer". When you realize that there's no "Our Father", no "Heaven"
and and on and on, you realize just how corrupted these "literal words
of God" are.
sheesh.
I decided to find it for myself and I found it at
http://www.thenazareneway.com/lords_prayer.htm
Lords Prayer Translated from Aramaic
A Translation of "Our Father" directly from Aramaic into English
[BRACKETS ARE MY COMMENTS]
O cosmic Birther of all radiance and vibration. Soften the ground of
our being and carve out a space within us where your Presence can
abide.
[The SUN is the birther of radiance and life if you ask me]
Fill us with your creativity so that we may be empowered to bear the
fruit of your mission.
[The SUN's mission is life and Fruit]
Let each of our actions bear fruit in accordance with our desire.
[Karma... reaping what you sow.]
Endow us with the wisdom to produce and share what each being needs to
grow and flourish.
[a farming metaphor for individual growth and learning]
Untie the tangled threads of destiny that bind us, as we release
others from the entanglement of past mistakes.
[a very Taoist sentiment... forgive and be forgiven works here]
Do not let us be seduced by that which would divert us from our true
purpose, but illuminate the opportunities of the present moment.
[find our true purpose in life and see the opportunities that we have]
For you are the ground and the fruitful vision, the birth, power and
fulfillment, as all is gathered and made whole once again.
[This is 100% pagan in what it says.]
YOUR INTERPRETATIONS MAY VARY. hehe
James, Seattle
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| User: "duke" |
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| Title: Re: The Bible myth |
31 Jan 2005 05:43:26 AM |
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On Sun, 30 Jan 2005 22:46:04 GMT, "Bill" <wmech@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
I keep seeing people quoting from the Bible as though it was proof or a
fact.
There is NO objective evidence that any of the Bibles are the word of
ANY God.
Wow, there are those words again - NO & objective. You don't know what the word
of God is, so how do you know?
So tell me a "word of God" if you do know.
duke
*****
Matthew 22
14"For many are invited, but few are chosen."
*****
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| User: "walksalone" |
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| Title: Re: The Bible myth |
30 Jan 2005 08:46:58 PM |
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On Sun, 30 Jan 2005 22:46:04 GMT, Bill wrote:
I keep seeing people quoting from the Bible as though it was proof or a
fact.
There is NO objective evidence that any of the Bibles are the word of
ANY God.
There are no originals still in existence. They are all copies with
alterations, additions and deletions to suite the transcribers. Remember the
printing press was not even invented until the 5 Th. Century and the Bibles
date back over 4,000 years.
Here is a list of ENGLISH translations of the Bible. Which are the correct
ones? And were the copies they translated from accurate translations of the
originals?
Your list was rather incomplete, I hope you don't mind me up dating it?
Yours
New American Standard
New International Version
Amplified Bible
New Living Translation
King James Version
Contemporary English Version
New King James Version
21 St. Century King James Version
New International Version
American Standard Version
Holman Christian Version
New Life Version
Darby Translation
Young's Literal Translation
New International Readers Version
World English Bible
Mine
AAT The Complete Bible: An American Translation, by Edgar Goodspeed and
J. M. Powis Smith, 1939.
ABT The Afro Bible Translation
ATB The Alternate Translation Bible
ASV American Standard Version purchase ASV
AB The Amplified Bible editions for sale
ALT Analytical-Literal Translation
ASL American Sign Language Translation
Bar The New Testament: A New Translation, by William Barclay
BB The Biker Bible
BWE Bible in WorldWide English The Bible Gateway Translation Information
see BWE description
CCB Christian Community Bible
CE The Common Edition: New Testament
CE Covenant Edition New Testament
CJB Complete Jewish Bible
CV Concordant Version
CEV Contemporary English Version
Dar Darby
DR Douay-Rheims
DRP David Robert Palmer's translations of the gospels
EMTV English Majority Text Version
ENT Extreme New Testament revision of Simple English Bible, below
ERV Easy-to-Read Version
ESV English Standard Version
FF Ferrar Fenton Bible
GLW God's Living Word
GNC God's New Covenant: A New Testament Translation, by Heinz W. Cassirer
GNT Good News Translation [formerly,
GNB Good News Bible
TEV Today's English Version
GW God's Word
HCSB Holman Christian Standard Bible
ICB International Children's Bible children's version of the NCV
ISB International Standard Bible formerly titled The Simple English Bible
ISV The International Standard Version
ISV Naturalness and Comprehension Survey, by Phil Fields
JBP New Testament in Modern English, by J.B. Phillips New Testament in
Modern English, Revised, by J.B. Phillips Student edition
JNT Jewish New Testament: A Translation of the New Testament That
Expresses Its Jewishness see Complete Jewish Bible
JPS Jerusalem Publication Society: Tanakh: The Holy Scriptures, The New
JPS Translation According to the Traditional Hebrew Text
KJV King James Version and recent revisions
DKJB Defined King James Bible
KJII King James Version II renamed to Literal Translation of the Holy
Bible
KJ21 King James for the 21st Century
KJ2000 King James 2000
LITV The Literal Translation of the Holy Bible formerly named King James
II
MKJV Modern King James Version
NKJV New King James Version
RAV Revised Authorised Version British edition of the NKJV), review
RKJV Revised King James New Testament
TMB The Third Millennium Bible
UKJV Updated King James Version
LITV The Literal Translation of the Holy Bible see under KJV and recent
revisions
LB Living Bible
MAEV Modern American English Vernacular
MLB Modern Language Bible: New Berkeley Version
Mof Bible: James Moffatt Translation amazon.com
NAB New American Bible
NASB New American Standard Bible
NCV New Century Version
NEB New English Bible
NET New English Translation
NET New Evangelical Translation
NIRV New Internation Reader's Version
NIV New International Version
NJB New Jerusalem Bible
NKJV New King James Version see under KJV and recent revisions
NLV New Life Version
NLT New Living Translation
NRSV New Revised Standard Bible
NWT New World Translation published by the Watchtower Bible and Tract
Society of the Jehovah's Witnesses
OBP The Original Bible Project
OSB Orthodox Study Bible
ONT The Original New Testament: The First Definitive Translation of the
New Testament in 2000 Years, by Hugh Schonfield
PB Phillips Bible New testament only
PMB Postmodern Bible
RDB Readers digest edition
Rec Recovery Version
REB The Revised English Bible revision of NEB
RSV Revised Standard Version
RV Revised Version, 1885
Sch The Schocken Bible
SEB The Simple English Bible
TM The Message
TMB The Third Millennium Bible
TEV Today's English Version [see GNT Good News Translation]
TNIV Today's New International Version
Tyn Tyndale
Wey Weymouth
WEB World English Bible
Wms The New Testament in the Language of the People, by Charles B.
Williams another website
WNT Wesley's New Testament
Wuest The New Testament An Expanded Translation purchase
Wyc Wycliffe
YLT Young's Literal Translation of the Bible download entire text
& for some information on the dumbing down of those grimories:
HISTORY OF SCRIPTURE
First of all, I would like to list the readability index for some of the
different translations. It might be handy if a person begins working with
different age groups or possibly people with diminished mental
capacity.
King James Version 14.0 years of education
American Standard Version 11.6 years of education
New American Standard Bible 11.3 years of education
Revised Standard Version 10.4 years of education
Jerusalem Bible 10.1 years of education
Phillips translation 9.6 years of education
New King James Version 9.1 years of education
New English Bible 8.5 years of education
Living Bible 8.3 years of education
New International Version 7.8 years of education
Today's English Version 7.3 years of education
International Children's Version 3.9 years of education
(Adapted from "WHICH BIBLE TRANSLATION IS BEST FOR ME?"; Kohlenberger,
John, III; Moody Monthly, May 1987)
Hope that helps.
walksalone who never could understand why the xian snake oil salesmen
needed so many different manuals, until he say bleaters pretend to know
what they are talking about.
--
It would indeed be ironic if, in the name of national defence, we would
sanction the subversion of one of those liberties which make the defence of
our nation worthwhile. -Earl Warren, jurist (1891-1974)
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| User: "walksalone" |
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| Title: Re: The Bible myth |
30 Jan 2005 08:53:00 PM |
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On Sun, 30 Jan 2005 22:46:04 GMT, Bill wrote:
I keep seeing people quoting from the Bible as though it was proof or a
fact.
There is NO objective evidence that any of the Bibles are the word of
ANY God.
There are no originals still in existence. They are all copies with
alterations, additions and deletions to suite the transcribers. Remember the
printing press was not even invented until the 5 Th. Century and the Bibles
date back over 4,000 years.
Here is a list of ENGLISH translations of the Bible. Which are the correct
ones? And were the copies they translated from accurate translations of the
originals?
Your list was rather incomplete, I hope you don't mind me up dating it?
Yours
New American Standard
New International Version
Amplified Bible
New Living Translation
King James Version
Contemporary English Version
New King James Version
21 St. Century King James Version
New International Version
American Standard Version
Holman Christian Version
New Life Version
Darby Translation
Young's Literal Translation
New International Readers Version
World English Bible
Mine
AAT The Complete Bible: An American Translation, by Edgar Goodspeed and
J. M. Powis Smith, 1939.
ABT The Afro Bible Translation
ATB The Alternate Translation Bible
ASV American Standard Version purchase ASV
AB The Amplified Bible editions for sale
ALT Analytical-Literal Translation
ASL American Sign Language Translation
Bar The New Testament: A New Translation, by William Barclay
BB The Biker Bible
BWE Bible in WorldWide English The Bible Gateway Translation Information
see BWE description
CCB Christian Community Bible
CE The Common Edition: New Testament
CE Covenant Edition New Testament
CJB Complete Jewish Bible
CV Concordant Version
CEV Contemporary English Version
Dar Darby
DR Douay-Rheims
DRP David Robert Palmer's translations of the gospels
EMTV English Majority Text Version
ENT Extreme New Testament revision of Simple English Bible, below
ERV Easy-to-Read Version
ESV English Standard Version
FF Ferrar Fenton Bible
GLW God's Living Word
GNC God's New Covenant: A New Testament Translation, by Heinz W. Cassirer
GNT Good News Translation [formerly,
GNB Good News Bible
TEV Today's English Version
GW God's Word
HCSB Holman Christian Standard Bible
ICB International Children's Bible children's version of the NCV
ISB International Standard Bible formerly titled The Simple English Bible
ISV The International Standard Version
ISV Naturalness and Comprehension Survey, by Phil Fields
JBP New Testament in Modern English, by J.B. Phillips New Testament in
Modern English, Revised, by J.B. Phillips Student edition
JNT Jewish New Testament: A Translation of the New Testament That
Expresses Its Jewishness see Complete Jewish Bible
JPS Jerusalem Publication Society: Tanakh: The Holy Scriptures, The New
JPS Translation According to the Traditional Hebrew Text
KJV King James Version and recent revisions
DKJB Defined King James Bible
KJII King James Version II renamed to Literal Translation of the Holy
Bible
KJ21 King James for the 21st Century
KJ2000 King James 2000
LITV The Literal Translation of the Holy Bible formerly named King James
II
MKJV Modern King James Version
NKJV New King James Version
RAV Revised Authorised Version British edition of the NKJV), review
RKJV Revised King James New Testament
TMB The Third Millennium Bible
UKJV Updated King James Version
LITV The Literal Translation of the Holy Bible see under KJV and recent
revisions
LB Living Bible
MAEV Modern American English Vernacular
MLB Modern Language Bible: New Berkeley Version
Mof Bible: James Moffatt Translation amazon.com
NAB New American Bible
NASB New American Standard Bible
NCV New Century Version
NEB New English Bible
NET New English Translation
NET New Evangelical Translation
NIRV New Internation Reader's Version
NIV New International Version
NJB New Jerusalem Bible
NKJV New King James Version see under KJV and recent revisions
NLV New Life Version
NLT New Living Translation
NRSV New Revised Standard Bible
NWT New World Translation published by the Watchtower Bible and Tract
Society of the Jehovah's Witnesses
OBP The Original Bible Project
OSB Orthodox Study Bible
ONT The Original New Testament: The First Definitive Translation of the
New Testament in 2000 Years, by Hugh Schonfield
PB Phillips Bible New testament only
PMB Postmodern Bible
RDB Readers digest edition
Rec Recovery Version
REB The Revised English Bible revision of NEB
RSV Revised Standard Version
RV Revised Version, 1885
Sch The Schocken Bible
SEB The Simple English Bible
TM The Message
TMB The Third Millennium Bible
TEV Today's English Version [see GNT Good News Translation]
TNIV Today's New International Version
Tyn Tyndale
Wey Weymouth
WEB World English Bible
Wms The New Testament in the Language of the People, by Charles B.
Williams another website
WNT Wesley's New Testament
Wuest The New Testament An Expanded Translation purchase
Wyc Wycliffe
YLT Young's Literal Translation of the Bible download entire text
& for some information on the dumbing down of those grimories:
HISTORY OF SCRIPTURE
First of all, I would like to list the readability index for some of the
different translations. It might be handy if a person begins working with
different age groups or possibly people with diminished mental
capacity.
King James Version 14.0 years of education
American Standard Version 11.6 years of education
New American Standard Bible 11.3 years of education
Revised Standard Version 10.4 years of education
Jerusalem Bible 10.1 years of education
Phillips translation 9.6 years of education
New King James Version 9.1 years of education
New English Bible 8.5 years of education
Living Bible 8.3 years of education
New International Version 7.8 years of education
Today's English Version 7.3 years of education
International Children's Version 3.9 years of education
(Adapted from "WHICH BIBLE TRANSLATION IS BEST FOR ME?"; Kohlenberger,
John, III; Moody Monthly, May 1987)
Hope that helps.
walksalone who never could understand why the xian snake oil salesmen
needed so many different manuals, until he say bleaters pretend to know
what they are talking about.
--
It would indeed be ironic if, in the name of national defence, we would
sanction the subversion of one of those liberties which make the defence of
our nation worthwhile. -Earl Warren, jurist (1891-1974)
.
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| User: "Zadok" |
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| Title: Re: The Bible myth |
31 Jan 2005 06:28:54 PM |
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RS writes:
I am sorry that you feel this way, but you will see the truth when your body
dies and you come before your Maker and need to explain to Him why you
rejected Him so fully during the life He gave you.
Buddy, Buddy, you misunderstand. I believe in my creator, and have never
rejected him. Just because you believe the book of myths that has been
doctored so bad, you can't figure out what happened 2,000 years, don't get
on my case, because I am searching for some truth.
Read Jim Ledford's piece on Xmas.
Do I care that the church adopted a pagan holiday?? Maybe I do.
Maybe my Bible tells me that I shouldn't. How about you read Deuteronomy 12.
Concentrate on verses 29-32. God tells me not to be snared by following the
customs of the pagans. He says do not enquire after their gods, saying how
did they serve their gods.
Pay particular attention to verse 31, where God says that sacrificing a son
or a daughter is an abomination unto him.
But then you'll tell me this same God, sent his son to be sacrificed to
himself.
You tell me there is nothing wrong with taking the pagan Winter Solstice
festival and making it Christian.
That is *****, and you know it.
It is a pagan festival. Always has been, always will be. You can doctor it
up all you want. But the fact is you are celebrating a pagan festival under
another name.
And come the day we die, you can rest assured, you are in for a bigger
surprise than I am.
Tell me, when the commandment says REMEMBER the Sabbath, (Why??) To keep it
holy.
Do you do that?? Do you celebrate the Sabbath that your Saviour celebrated??
Review Matthew 15: 3 - Why do you trangress the commandments of God by your
tradition. Read verse 9. In vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines
the commandments of men.
Got it now!! Xmas is a commandment of men.
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| User: "RS" |
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| Title: Re: The Bible myth |
31 Jan 2005 07:11:01 PM |
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"Zadok" <nobler@accesswave.ca> wrote in message
news:a3ALd.90987$Ob.29396@edtnps84...
RS writes:
You tell me there is nothing wrong with taking the pagan Winter Solstice
festival and making it Christian.
When I celebrate the Christmas season, I celebrate it as a season of life.
I completely separate the commercial holiday from the spiritual holiday and
take that time of the year to solely thank God for the gift of His son and
to remember and celebrate the birth of Our Lord, Jesus. In the spirit of
God, I remember those around me and sacrifice myself to give to them as best
I can, living strong to the example of St. Francis of Assisi.
It is a pagan festival. Always has been, always will be. You can doctor it
up all you want. But the fact is you are celebrating a pagan festival
under
another name.
You hardly know what I celebrate, do you? To celebrate the birth of Christ
isn't celebrating a pagan holiday. We turn to one another and celebrate our
own birthdays. Why, then, can't we set a time a season of the year to
celebrate the birth of Christ? I do agree with you, however. Christmas has
become a holiday unto the pagans. The commercial aspect of it has
overwhelmed the masses, just as with Easter, Valentines Day, All Saints Day,
and many more.
And come the day we die, you can rest assured, you are in for a bigger
surprise than I am.
When I celebrate the season of Christmas, I do not do anything that stands
against Christ. The giving of gifts isn't against Christ because I give
from my own heart, not in the name of who Santa Clause has become. I
remember the real Saint Nicholas and what he stood for: helping those who
are unfortunate and struck by poverty who feel abandoned by the world around
them.
I do not prance around Reindeer, I do not kiss under mistletoe. I do put up
a tree because a tree is a wonderful symbol of strength and life. What
Christmas has become spiritually for me isn't sinful and it isn't wrong to
celebrate and worship Christ in a way that is different from you. Romans
15:5 Unite together under one common cause. The Lord calls us to unite.
It isn't wrong for us to unite under a specific cause of celebrating His
birth. What is wrong, however, is to abandon the celebration of the birth
of Christ for more secular and pagan delights.
I may make mistakes by presumption. I may err in a few aspects of my faith.
I know, however, that your claiming "you are in for a bigger surprise than I
am" is utterly mistaken, because God loves me and will forgive me any
mistakes, even those I make without completely understanding.
Tell me, when the commandment says REMEMBER the Sabbath, (Why??) To keep
it
holy.
Do you do that?? Do you celebrate the Sabbath that your Saviour
celebrated??
I do, indeed, celebrate the Sabbath that has endured in my tradition. The
Sabbath day from sundown to sundown Saturday night to Sunday night is my
Sabbath, and I remember it with a sense of meditation and relaxation,
worship and praise, and personal time where I remove myself from the world
and set myself before my Lord and Friend, Jesus Christ, to commune with Him
and form a bond of brotherhood that should exist between a man and His king.
Review Matthew 15: 3 - Why do you trangress the commandments of God by
your
tradition. Read verse 9. In vain do they worship me, teaching for
doctrines
the commandments of men.
Got it now!! Xmas is a commandment of men.
On the contrary, what I have done is taken away from men, the Christmas
Holiday, and returned it to God. The Christmas season is very personal to
me because I have removed it from my friends and family and surrendered it
to God telling Him "My Lord, I will do what you desire of me. I will take
this Holiday and set it aside from the year as a period of solemn prayer and
fast if you wish it. I know you will not look down upon me for giving to
others. I know you will not frown upon me for accepting that which is given
to me in your name. I know, as well, that though I do not fully understand,
your grace is enough to forgive me."
It is in that, my friend, that Christmas may be returned to God. No holiday
is completely pagan if a person takes that Holiday away from the world and
surrenders it to God. Halloween (or more rightfully the day after) can be
set aside to worship God and remember the Saints who have gone before us.
St. Valentines day can be removed from the world and offered to God as a day
to remember the love that exists between a husband and a wife and the holy
gift of procreation that God has given to us. Easter can be removed from
the pagans and offered as a time of joyful celebration of the ressurrection
of our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ after a long and solemn period of fast.
To do that... to surrender your life to God and to seek to form your own
relationship with Him is what God desires of us. To let Him love you and to
shine His love upon all the world is what it means to be a Christian. To
celebrate the life He has given us and to celebrate the things He has done
for us brings Him great pleasure... though sadness may fill His heart when
He sees His children fallen to the holidays the world have reformed.
Remove from the world these holidays which should be sacred and holy and
surrender them to God and listen. God will let you know what it is you
should be doing. Conform that new message to your heart and return those
holidays to the Spirit, and Christmas, Valentines Day, Easter, and All
Saints Day, will be a period in your spiritual year that will bring you
closer to God and establish a bond of brotherhood between yourself and
Christ the King.
-RS
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| User: "wcb" |
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| Title: Re: The Bible myth |
01 Feb 2005 03:03:52 AM |
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Zadok wrote:
RS writes:
I am sorry that you feel this way, but you will see the truth when your
body dies and you come before your Maker and need to explain to Him why
you rejected Him so fully during the life He gave you.
This will never happen. Your non-existant god didn't create anything.
Nobody is going to see the big nothing.
What you have sonny, is a stupid myth.
**************************************************
God Disproven - Part 2
There are several concepts of god that are meant
when that word is used. One is the philosophers'
god derived from ancient Greek concepts, the god
that is omnipotent, omniscient, omnibenevolent.
But we also have the biblical god, the god of
the old testament, Yahweh, El, the god of Genesis
Exodus and the other books of the bible. This god
is a historical god, not a philosphical god.
His nature and existance are said to be found in
the Torah, the old testament.
At the turn of the 19th century archeology saw
the establishment of so called biblical archaeology,
archaeology mostly of an American origin dedicated
optimistically to showing that the bible was true.
Instead, over a century, it showed the opposite.
Biblical archaeology never really existed as a
seperate 'discipline', it was an aspect of Near
Eastern Archaeology.
It is now established that much of the bible is in
no way history nor true. There was no Egyptian
captivity, no exodus, no 40 years wandering, no bloody
invasion of Canaan lead by Moses and Joshua. With
that faux history debunked, so goes the theological
concepts embedded in this this faux history.
God here is understood to have been an entity that
at certain specific times did certain specific things
at certain specific places involving certain specific
persons. But if these places and persons did not exist,
this god likewise does not exist, they are all just
characters in a novel masquerding as history.
Archaeology has found and excavated the cities
supposedly destroyed by Joshua and the Israelites
and found they were ruins long before any Israelite
could have been in the area.
Several excavations have looked for the 36 year
long encampments of the Israelites at Kadesh Barnea
and failed.
Egyptologists find names of numerous foreigners
and their gods attested to in Egyptian literture,
tombs and other sources, but no Israelite names,
no mention of Yahweh can be found. Odd for a people
that supposedly were in Egypt for 430 years starting
70 persons.
Despite that, Israel show little Egyptianisms,
not in language, architecture, pottery, writing systems,
literary traditions, clothing or other things you'd
expect from a people who starting with 70 people
spent 430 years in Egypt, growing to a massive presence
there from biblical accounts.
And these bible tall tales are replete with errors,
anachronisms and other signs it is not history.
Thus archaeology and historians and bible scholars
have concluded that from Genesis to Judges, the bible
is most certainly not history.
Rather in recent decades, archaeologists have discovered
the true facts about Israel. They were typical Canaanites
who peacefully spread throught the hill country as peaceful
farmers in unfortified hilltop farms. This population of
farmers later developed into Israel, Judah, Moab, Ammon,
Edom andother similar states in that area of the world.
There was no invasion as per Joshua. No Moses on the mount,
no god leading the Israelites as a pillar of smoke or fire,
no plagues of Egypt, no genocides ordered by god.
This god and all these happenings are fantasies. The god
attached to these tall tales did not and does not exist
anymore than did Winnie the Pooh in his Hundred Acre Woods.
Both are mere characters in novels, the only difference is
most people don't realize the bible is just a bad novel
pieced together from ancient myths long ago. They have
no idea archaeologists and historians have abandoned
all of this as being in any way history or being true.
But this god, that did certain things in certain places
at certain times with certain people is in fact, dead
and gone. Disproven, debunked and gone.
Because these places and times and people have been
disproven as having never existed and god disappears with
these now debunked tales.
A few quotes from the experts:
"The Rise of Ancient Israel"
A Symposium at the Smithsonian Institute
October 26, 1991
Biblical Archaeology Society 1992
Herschel Schanks
"Well archaeology is no longer a crutch in
this classic sense of a conquest model. We
simply can no longer posit a series of destructions
in Canann that can be rationally identified as the
result of the Israelite conquest. Recently our
archaeological methodology has improved, we can date
levels more securely, and more sites have been excavated.
As a result we can no longer say that archeology
supports what we call the conquest model of Israel's
emergence in Canaan."
William G. Dever
"The conquest model is not subsribed to by most
biblical scholars today - certainly no one in the
mainstream of scholarship - and that's been true
for some time. Moreover, there isn't a single
reputable professional archaeologist in the world
whoespouses the conquest model in Israel, Europe,
or America. We don't need to say anymore about
the conquest model. That's that. (Laughter)
Not to be dogmatic about it or anything, but..
(Laughter)"
"From Nomadism to Monarchy
- Archaeological and Historical Aspects
of Early Israel"
Edited by Israel Finkelstein and Nadav Na'aman.
Biblical Archaeology Society 1994
Israel Finkelstein and Nadav Na'aman
Introduction Page 13
"Combination of archeological and historical
research demonstrates that the biblical account
of the conquest and occupation of Canaan is
entirely divorced from historical reality.
Instead, it proves the correctness of the
literary-critical approach to the biblical text.
The biblical descriptions of the origin and early
history of the people of Israel are not disimilar
from narratives on the origins of other peoples,
which likewise do not withstand the test of
historical criticism."
Nadav Na'aman Page 249
"It is commonly accepted today that the majority
of conquest stories in the book of Joshua are devoid
of historical reality."
"What Did The Biblical Writers Know & When
Did They Know It?"
- William G. Dever
William B. Eerdmans Publishing Company
2001
Page 121
"Now let us turn to the biblical data. If we look
at the biblical texts describing the the origins
of Israel, we see at once that the traditional
account contained from Genesis to Joshua cannot be
reconciled with the picture derived from
archaeological investigation.The whole
"Exodus-Conquest" cycle of stories must now be set
aside as largely mythical, but in the proper sense
of the word myth: perhaps "historical fiction"
but tales told primarily to validate religous
beliefs."
Page 282
"Here we must confront squarely the essential
dilemma of the modern reader of the Hebrew Bible.
a dilemma that nearly all writers of today acknowledge.
Does critical study of the bible undermine religous
faith, perhaps more importantly diminish the value
of the Bible as a basis for cultural and moral
values? For the fundamentalists, or for many
conservative Christians, Jews an others, the answer
is: Yes. These folk must then reject modern literary
other critical methods, although I have assumed here
that such methods are to be taken for granted by any
well-informed reader in the modern world. There is
irony here. In North America and in places in Europe
archaeology is accepted, even enthusiastically embraced,
because it is mistakenly thought it will after all,
"prove the Bible is true".
**************************************************
--
Cheerful Charlie
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| User: "Zadok" |
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| Title: Re: The Bible myth |
31 Jan 2005 08:47:24 PM |
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RS writes:
I do, indeed, celebrate the Sabbath that has endured in my tradition. The
Sabbath day from sundown to sundown Saturday night to Sunday night is my
Sabbath, and I remember it with a sense of meditation and relaxation,
worship and praise, and personal time where I remove myself from the world
and set myself before my Lord and Friend, Jesus Christ, to commune with Him
and form a bond of brotherhood that should exist between a man and His king.
Review Matthew 15: 3 - Why do you trangress the commandments of God by
your
tradition. Read verse 9. In vain do they worship me, teaching for
doctrines the commandments of men.
The Commandment of God:
Exodus 20: 8 REMEMBER the Sabbath, to keep it holy.
The commandment of men:
Cannon XXIX from the Council of Laodicea
CHRISTIANS must not judaize by resting on the Sabbath, but must work on that
day, rather honouring the Lord's Day; and, if they can, resting then as
Christians. But if any shall be found to be judaizers, let them be anathema
from Christ.
As you say. You have your tradition.
It just a shame it has nothing to do with the bible.
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| User: "RS" |
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| Title: Re: The Bible myth |
30 Jan 2005 11:06:03 PM |
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Through devices of literary analysis, such as multiple attestation,
linguistic suitability, and a few others we can determine the oldest and
most complete copies of the New Testement documents. These are still copies
from the originals, however and we must ask ourselves whether certian
documents were actually written by the apostles. Most likely, the gospels
were written by those of hte same school of thought as the original apostles
and penned either in their name or in the name of a close friend or
disciple.
Still, however, the differences that exist are so because God has inspired
them that way. As for being written over a period of 2500 years... I am
wondering whether you are referring to the Hebrew Torah or the NT articles,
which date to around 1900 years. There is plenty of objective evidence
which suggests that the NT articles are accurate to the teachings of the
movements into the Diaspora.
As for it being the written word of God, there will be objective evidence.
If you can be patient and silent about this topic for the next 50 years (or
however long it takes for your body to die), God will provide you with all
the objective evidence you desire. I hope final judgment is good on you,
and I pray for the salvation of your soul.
-RS
"Bill" <wmech@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message
news:MsdLd.43720$8u5.4961@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...
I keep seeing people quoting from the Bible as though it was proof or a
fact.
There is NO objective evidence that any of the Bibles are the word of
ANY God.
There are no originals still in existence. They are all copies with
alterations, additions and deletions to suite the transcribers. Remember
the
printing press was not even invented until the 5 Th. Century and the
Bibles
date back over 4,000 years.
Here is a list of ENGLISH translations of the Bible. Which are the correct
ones? And were the copies they translated from accurate translations of
the
originals?
The evidence is that these Bibles, written by over forty men over a
period
of some 2500 years are nothing but a combination of history, myths,
folklore
and legends. There is NO
objective evidence that they are accurate history or the words of any God.
New American Standard
New International Version
Amplified Bible
New Living Translation
King James Version
Contemporary English Version
New King James Version
21 St. Century King James Version
New International Version
American Standard Version
Holman Christian Version
New Life Version
Darby Translation
Young's Literal Translation
New International Readers Version
World English Bible
--
Bill
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| User: "SheBlewHimDidYouBlowHim" |
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| Title: Re: The Bible myth |
30 Jan 2005 11:53:22 PM |
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"As for it being the written word of God, there will be objective evidence.
If you can be patient and silent about this topic for the next 50 years (or
however long it takes for your body to die), God will provide you with all
the objective evidence you desire. I hope final judgment is good on you,
and I pray for the salvation of your soul"
so, if I wait 50 years to so for god to MURDER me, then I will find out this
great secret of his ? LMAO. Good, when I go to meet him, I will be bringing
my gun with me and I will KILL GOD. DEATH TO GOD THE SERIAL KILLER
"RS" <rswarts@bu.edu> wrote in message news:ctkebt$e40$1@news3.bu.edu...
Through devices of literary analysis, such as multiple attestation,
linguistic suitability, and a few others we can determine the oldest and
most complete copies of the New Testement documents. These are still
copies from the originals, however and we must ask ourselves whether
certian documents were actually written by the apostles. Most likely, the
gospels were written by those of hte same school of thought as the
original apostles and penned either in their name or in the name of a
close friend or disciple.
Still, however, the differences that exist are so because God has inspired
them that way. As for being written over a period of 2500 years... I am
wondering whether you are referring to the Hebrew Torah or the NT
articles, which date to around 1900 years. There is plenty of objective
evidence which suggests that the NT articles are accurate to the teachings
of the movements into the Diaspora.
As for it being the written word of God, there will be objective evidence.
If you can be patient and silent about this topic for the next 50 years
(or however long it takes for your body to die), God will provide you with
all the objective evidence you desire. I hope final judgment is good on
you, and I pray for the salvation of your soul.
-RS
"Bill" <wmech@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message
news:MsdLd.43720$8u5.4961@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...
I keep seeing people quoting from the Bible as though it was proof or a
fact.
There is NO objective evidence that any of the Bibles are the word of
ANY God.
There are no originals still in existence. They are all copies with
alterations, additions and deletions to suite the transcribers. Remember
the
printing press was not even invented until the 5 Th. Century and the
Bibles
date back over 4,000 years.
Here is a list of ENGLISH translations of the Bible. Which are the
correct
ones? And were the copies they translated from accurate translations of
the
originals?
The evidence is that these Bibles, written by over forty men over a
period
of some 2500 years are nothing but a combination of history, myths,
folklore
and legends. There is NO
objective evidence that they are accurate history or the words of any
God.
New American Standard
New International Version
Amplified Bible
New Living Translation
King James Version
Contemporary English Version
New King James Version
21 St. Century King James Version
New International Version
American Standard Version
Holman Christian Version
New Life Version
Darby Translation
Young's Literal Translation
New International Readers Version
World English Bible
--
Bill
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| User: "Gary Bohn" |
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| Title: Re: The Bible myth |
31 Jan 2005 11:11:00 AM |
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"RS" <rswarts@bu.edu> wrote in news:ctkebt$e40$1@news3.bu.edu:
Through devices of literary analysis, such as multiple attestation,
linguistic suitability, and a few others we can determine the oldest
and most complete copies of the New Testement documents. These are
still copies from the originals, however and we must ask ourselves
whether certian documents were actually written by the apostles. Most
likely, the gospels were written by those of hte same school of
thought as the original apostles and penned either in their name or in
the name of a close friend or disciple.
Still, however, the differences that exist are so because God has
inspired them that way.
Talk about begging the question. God-did-it!
As for being written over a period of 2500
years... I am wondering whether you are referring to the Hebrew Torah
or the NT articles, which date to around 1900 years. There is plenty
of objective evidence which suggests that the NT articles are accurate
to the teachings of the movements into the Diaspora.
As for it being the written word of God, there will be objective
evidence. If you can be patient and silent about this topic for the
next 50 years (or however long it takes for your body to die), God
will provide you with all the objective evidence you desire. I hope
final judgment is good on you, and I pray for the salvation of your
soul.
If all else fails, forget logic and head straight for the argumentum ad
baculum.
<snip>
--
apatriot #23, aa #1779, Grand Poobah, EAC Department of Oxygen
Deprivation
Responsible for brain damage everywhere!
Gary Bohn
Science rationally modifies a theory to fit evidence, creationism
emotionally modifies evidence to fit the bible.
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: The Bible myth |
01 Feb 2005 02:00:13 PM |
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Where are you getting the idea that there are no originals? The fact is
that the Bible has more manuscripts in existence than any other ancient
document. Does anyone question that the version of the Odessy or the
Illiad are accurate to what Homer wrote? No, and the Bible has
thousands of manuscripts more than the Illiad and the Odessy combined.
In the dead see caves near Quamran there was a scroll with an ancient
manuscript of Isaiah (about 5000 years older than any we had previous
to that) that contained no signifigant change. The only changes that
were present were things like using the word shine instead of glimmer.
They were simply synonyms that didn't change the meaning.
Archeologically the Bible is amazing as well. They thought that the
cities of Jericho, Nazareth, and Bethlehem were non-existant in the
time period that the Bible dates them at. However they found evidence
of all three of those cities existing exactly where the Bible describes
them at the same time period that the Bible claims they existed.
Historically, the Bible has lined up accurately with every historical
figure (including Jesus). The reign of Ramses II is discussed in Exodus
and the departure of the Hebrews from Egypt is discussed elsewhere in
historical documents. Nebachadnezzer and Babylon line up accurately.
The destruction and conquest of Babylon by the Persian-Medes is also
accurate. The death of Herod the Great as well as the slaughter of
inocents is accurate, the reign of Herod Antipas and Pontions Pilate,
as well as the tradition of releasing one criminal to the jews at
passover is recorded accurately.
Prophetically there are over 200 individual prophesies conserning Jesus
that were fulfilled before he died (or when he rose again) and there
are several other prophesies not concerning Messiah that were
fullfilled exactly.
Scientifically the Bible was the first to claim that the heart was not
where emotions were stored, the world was round, the earth was not the
center of everything (even though it is near the center of the known
universe), there were underwater rivers in the ocean (ever seen finding
nemo, it's talking about the Ocean Currents). It also calls the Heart
the Wellspring of life and makes many other scientific claims (some
including areas that we would call astrophysics).
The Bible is extremely accurate, and itself claims to be the inspired
Word of God. If it has been accurate in all of these other things, who
are we to say that that part is different?
Bill wrote:
I keep seeing people quoting from the Bible as though it was proof or
a
fact.
There is NO objective evidence that any of the Bibles are the word of
ANY God.
There are no originals still in existence. They are all copies with
alterations, additions and deletions to suite the transcribers.
Remember the
printing press was not even invented until the 5 Th. Century and the
Bibles
date back over 4,000 years.
Here is a list of ENGLISH translations of the Bible. Which are the
correct
ones? And were the copies they translated from accurate translations
of the
originals?
The evidence is that these Bibles, written by over forty men over a
period
of some 2500 years are nothing but a combination of history, myths,
folklore
and legends. There is NO
objective evidence that they are accurate history or the words of any
God.
New American Standard
New International Version
Amplified Bible
New Living Translation
King James Version
Contemporary English Version
New King James Version
21 St. Century King James Version
New International Version
American Standard Version
Holman Christian Version
New Life Version
Darby Translation
Young's Literal Translation
New International Readers Version
World English Bible
--
Bill
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| User: "Fatman" |
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| Title: Re: The Bible myth |
01 Feb 2005 04:26:22 PM |
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wrote:
Where are you getting the idea that there are no originals?
Because there are no biblical autographs (autographs meaning "written
by the author").
The fact is that the Bible has more manuscripts in existence than any
other ancient document.
Irrelevant.
Does anyone question that the version of the Odessy
or the Illiad are accurate to what Homer wrote?
It wouldn't change the work to be non-fiction.
No, and the Bible has
thousands of manuscripts more than the Illiad and the Odessy combined.
Does not change the bible to be non-fiction.
In the dead see caves near Quamran there was a scroll with an ancient
manuscript of Isaiah (about 5000 years older than any we had previous
to that) that contained no signifigant change. The only changes that
were present were things like using the word shine instead of glimmer.
They were simply synonyms that didn't change the meaning.
What about ones with significant changes?
http://www.infidels.org/library/magazines/tsr/1990/4/4jerem90.html
Archeologically the Bible is amazing as well. They thought that the
cities of Jericho, Nazareth, and Bethlehem were non-existant in the
time period that the Bible dates them at. However they found evidence
of all three of those cities existing exactly where the Bible
describes them at the same time period that the Bible claims they
existed.
Cite? I have studied otherwise. There is even data to suggest that Jews
are merely Cannonites that broke from their culture. There are old
Cannonite ruins which are peculiar since there is no evidence that
these communities consumed pork.
Historically, the Bible has lined up accurately with every historical
figure (including Jesus).
Cite? Data does not support this.
The reign of Ramses II is discussed in
Exodus and the departure of the Hebrews from Egypt is discussed
elsewhere in historical documents.
There was no exodus from Egypt as described by the bible. Ramses' reign
saw no such event.
Nebachadnezzer and Babylon line up
accurately. The destruction and conquest of Babylon by the
Persian-Medes is also accurate. The death of Herod the Great as well
as the slaughter of inocents is accurate, the reign of Herod Antipas
and Pontions Pilate, as well as the tradition of releasing one
criminal to the jews at passover is recorded accurately.
Pilate was not portrayed accurately by the bible. Many of your claims
are completely baseless here.
Prophetically there are over 200 individual prophesies concerning
Jesus that were fulfilled before he died (or when he rose again) and
there are several other prophesies not concerning Messiah that were
fullfilled exactly.
Cite just one prophesy that is unambiguous. Meaning there can be no
question or doubt.
Scientifically the Bible was the first to claim that the heart was not
where emotions were stored, the world was round, the earth was not the
center of everything (even though it is near the center of the known
universe), there were underwater rivers in the ocean (ever seen
finding nemo, it's talking about the Ocean Currents). It also calls
the Heart the Wellspring of life and makes many other scientific
claims (some including areas that we would call astrophysics).
Many other claims are correct as well, like a mountain high enough to
see all of the earth. Man's sperm is a "seed". The sky is held by
pillars. The earth stopped spinning, and even rotated backwards. The
Sun and Moon both are about the same distance from the earth.
The Bible is extremely accurate, and itself claims to be the inspired
Word of God. If it has been accurate in all of these other things, who
are we to say that that part is different?
Facts get in the way of the claims you have made.
Gone with the Wind contains historical places and mentions historical
events. Gone with the Wind is fiction, as is the Bible.
Fatman
--
"Once again decent citizens will be able to enter this house of
worship, kneel down in front of a nearly-naked man hanging from a
wooden apparatus by a series of gruesome body piercings, and engage in
their bizarre practices of ritualized blood-drinking and cannibalism
without being assaulted by graphic images of attractive young women
with bare breasts."-- A. Whitney Brown, "The Daily Show"
"The invisible and the non-existent look very much alike."--Delos B.
McKown, PhD, US professor, philosopher, author, former clergyman
.
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: The Bible myth |
01 Feb 2005 05:07:36 PM |
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In what ways does the Bible record Pilate different than the historical
record. The jewish culture is depicted in several historical records in
ancient egypt predating Ramses II, and then mysteriously dissapears
after his reign (I wonder why Ramses first born didn't take the
throne...). If I lost over a million unarmed slaves I wouldn't make
specific references to them either.
Most ancient documents don't have a "Written By" line in them. Ancient
authors tended to leave clues in their writings (calling themselves by
a different name, highlighting themselves in a way no one else would).
The best example is the Gospel of John, where John refers to himself as
the disciple whom Jesus' loved. Similarly the book of Matthew calls
Matthew by the name of Levi (his hebrew name) where none of the other
books do.
I was not making the point that the number of manuscripts verifies it's
historicity. I was making the poitn that the number of manuscripts
verifies it's accuracy.
Show me once where the Bible says there is a mountain high enough that
it can see the whole earth or where it says that the sun and moon are
the same distance from the earth (or the sky pillar thing). Show me
proof that the earth has NEVER spun backwards or time has stopped
(surely you have more than just "everyone knows that hasn't happened").
The man's seed clearly a figure of speech (a rather weak point if you
ask me).
The prophesy of the Messiah riding into the East Gate on a donky
doesn't seem to vague. The place and circumstances of Jesus' birth
(Micah I think, I don't know the verses off hand), the way Christ would
be killed (Isaiah 55), the fact that the guards would cast lots for
Christ's clothing (Psalms 22). All of these are pretty specific.
The fact that the Isrealites/Hebrew/Jews are simply cannonites that
left their culture isn't unaccurate at all. Abraham simply left his
fathers land and went to a different place. Then he returned.
The difference between Gone with the Wind and the Bible is this... has
Gone with the Wind ever predicted the future? Has Gone with the Wind
affected millions of peoples lives? Do millions of people put their
trust in Gone with the Wind as their source for truth and moral
authority. The simple fact is this... I know God in a real and personal
way, and that is not something you can dispute... explain away... or
deny. He has changed me from an adolecent dabbling in Witchcraft and
doing his best to destroy himself, to the complete opposite. I eagerly
await your response.
.
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| User: "Fatman" |
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| Title: Re: The Bible myth |
02 Feb 2005 06:45:00 AM |
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wrote:
In what ways does the Bible record Pilate different than the
historical record. The jewish culture is depicted in several
historical records in ancient egypt predating Ramses II, and then
mysteriously dissapears after his reign (I wonder why Ramses first
born didn't take the throne...). If I lost over a million unarmed
slaves I wouldn't make specific references to them either.
The Bible portrays Pilate as indifferent to a usurper (Jesus), and that
he didn't want anything to do with the trial of Jesus. Pilate was very
harsh to the Jewish community and did not tolerate instigation of
rebellion from the empire.
Most ancient documents don't have a "Written By" line in them.
Autographs is a term to mean written by the author (not subsequent
copies). I was commenting that there are no documents which are in
existence that are considered original.
Ancient authors tended to leave clues in their writings
(calling themselves by a different name, highlighting themselves in a
way no one else would).
Yet there is no consensus on who most of the writers are.
The best example is the Gospel of John, where John refers to himself
as the disciple whom Jesus' loved. Similarly the book of Matthew calls
Matthew by the name of Levi (his hebrew name) where none of the other
books do.
I was not making the point that the number of manuscripts verifies
it's historicity. I was making the poitn that the number of
manuscripts verifies it's accuracy.
Numbers of manuscripts does not verify its historicity, yet verifies
it's accuracy? That does not follow. The accuracy of its facts
determines its accuracy, not the volume of works.
Show me once where the Bible says there is a mountain high enough that
it can see the whole earth
Luke 4:5
And the devil, taking him up into a high mountain, shewed unto him all
the kingdoms in the world in a moment of time.
or where it says that the sun and moon are
the same distance from the earth (or the sky pillar thing).
In Joshua 10 12-14, the Sun stops over Gibeon and the Moon stops over
the valley of Ajalon to provide enough light for battle.
Those two places are about 10 miles apart. The Sun should be enough to
light up both places, (bible authors thought the moon produced light).
Since the moon was needed to stop at the valley of Ajalon, the Sun and
Moon have to be considered extremely close to the Earth. Remember,
these ancient writers knew nothing of astronomy.
Show me
proof that the earth has NEVER spun backwards or time has stopped
(surely you have more than just "everyone knows that hasn't
happened").
Many cultures around the Earth payed extremely close attention to the
sky, sun, moon, and stars. Many of these cultures thrived during this
same period in the bible. Not one single culture recorded what to them
would have been the biggest event in their lifetimes. These people knew
when eclipses and such would occur so this event would have been very
unique. Of course you have no proof these events did happen. Hard for
you to show proof of an event that would cause chaos to the ecosystem
of the Earth and man of that time would have noticed it all over the
world, yet there is no evidence to suggest it did happen.
The man's seed clearly a figure of speech (a rather weak
point if you ask me).
No, ancient Hebrews thought that the man carried the seed of life. That
it was deposited into a woman and grew. They were unaware that the
woman carried the egg. Man's seed is not a figure of speech because
there is no relation between sperm and a seed. For it to be a figure of
speech, there needs to be some relation. "The egg is a seed" is more a
figure of speech.
The prophesy of the Messiah riding into the East Gate on a donky
doesn't seem to vague. The place and circumstances of Jesus' birth
(Micah I think, I don't know the verses off hand), the way Christ
would be killed (Isaiah 55), the fact that the guards would cast lots
for Christ's clothing (Psalms 22). All of these are pretty specific.
Please cite verses used for prophecy and context they are quoted in. I
need to know how you interpret them to know how to respond to them.
The fact that the Isrealites/Hebrew/Jews are simply cannonites that
left their culture isn't unaccurate at all. Abraham simply left his
fathers land and went to a different place. Then he returned.
There is no evidence the Hebrews ever left that area. They did not
return and conquer it like the bible claims.
The difference between Gone with the Wind and the Bible is this... has
Gone with the Wind ever predicted the future?
Neither has the bible. But wait, let me make a bible worthy prophecy.
The U.S. will know great peace for many years, but will know great
trouble from an old enemy.
Vague enough for ya? Kind of like the bible?
Has Gone with the Wind
affected millions of peoples lives?
Yep, degree may be different though. The Quran affects billions, it
must be accurate as well.
Do millions of people put their
trust in Gone with the Wind as their source for truth and moral
authority.
Irrelevant. Billions of people do not use the bible for such. Does this
prove anything to you?
The simple fact is this... I know God in a real and
personal way, and that is not something you can dispute... explain
away... or deny. He has changed me from an adolecent dabbling in
Witchcraft and doing his best to destroy himself, to the complete
opposite. I eagerly await your response.
I cannot change ones mind about religion. If you were a Muslim or Hindu
you would be claiming similar things. Religion is for those who need
it. You feel you need yours. I have no need for any.
Fatman
--
"Once again decent citizens will be able to enter this house of
worship, kneel down in front of a nearly-naked man hanging from a
wooden apparatus by a series of gruesome body piercings, and engage in
their bizarre practices of ritualized blood-drinking and cannibalism
without being assaulted by graphic images of attractive young women
with bare breasts."-- A. Whitney Brown, "The Daily Show"
"The invisible and the non-existent look very much alike."--Delos B.
McKown, PhD, US professor, philosopher, author, former clergyman
.
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| User: "Walter Bushell" |
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| Title: Re: The Bible myth |
03 Feb 2005 10:35:28 AM |
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In article <36c0a8F51cdb4U1@individual.net>, "Fatman" <me@privacy.net>
wrote:
<snip>
Those two places are about 10 miles apart. The Sun should be enough to
light up both places, (bible authors thought the moon produced light).
Since the moon was needed to stop at the valley of Ajalon, the Sun and
Moon have to be considered extremely close to the Earth. Remember,
these ancient writers knew nothing of astronomy.
<snip>
They knew a lot, all false apparently.
--
Guns don't kill people; automobiles kill people.
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