| Topic: |
Religions > Atheism |
| User: |
"ohoe" |
| Date: |
23 Aug 2004 07:22:59 AM |
| Object: |
The Blind Faith of Atheism |
The Blind Faith of Atheism
by Carl E. Olson.
Envoy magazine. Volume 3.4. 1999.
"The first requisite for the happiness of the people is the abolition
of religion" - Karl Marx, still unhappy
Up until a century ago atheism was largely the exclusive philosophical
obsession of ideologues, revolutionaries and the rich. Ordinary people
weren't atheists, or at least would never consider saying as much.
Times have dramatically changed. While a majority of Americans still
consider themselves "believers" of some sort, who have "faith" of some
type, it is increasingly uncertain exactly what they believe or who
they have faith in. In fact, more and more people are letting it be
known what they don't believe in and who they don't have faith in. As
mainline Protestant churches wilt in indecision and uncertainty in the
face of abortion, euthanasia and homosexuality, many of their members
are leaving. And while some will join more conservative churches, a
significant number are turning their backs on Christianity and God,
through either outright rejection or quiet indifference. Many
Catholics, poorly catechized and questioning the relevance of the
Church, are doing the same. Becoming an atheist, or living as though
one were, isn't just for the intelligentsia anymore - it has entered
the mainstream. What are some of the key features of this growing
worldview? How can Catholics make a coherent and firm defense for the
Christian Faith? Why do we need to take atheism so seriously?
As Many Atheisms as Atheists
"An Atheist loves himself and his fellow man instead of god. An
Atheist knows that heaven is something for which we should work now -
here on earth." - Madalyn Murray O'Hair, infamous and missing atheist
In his landmark work The Gods of Atheism, Fr. Vincent P. Miceli wrote
that atheism is "perhaps the most serious spiritual affliction of
modern man." (Vincent P. Miceli, SJ, The Gods of Atheism [Harrison,
NY: Roman Catholic Books, 1971] 9). The severity of this affliction
was recognized by the Second Vatican Council. In Gaudium et Spes (GS),
the Pastoral Constitution on the Church in the Modern World, the
Council Fathers stated that "atheism must be accounted among the most
serious problems of this age, and is deserving of closer examination"
(GS 19). In three compact, but rich paragraphs (GS 19-21), the Council
made a number of observations about atheism which are helpful for all
Catholics, including those active in apologetics and evangelization.
The Fathers recognized that atheism is complex and multifaceted,
embracing numerous perspectives loosely bound around a core disbelief
or denial of God. To unthinkingly stereotype atheists as simply
immoral unbelievers guarantees frustration and failure in dealing with
them. Gaudium et Spes describes some of the varieties of unbelievers,
including those who deny God outright, ambivalent agnostics, wary
skeptics, calculating rationalists, doubtful philosophers, sensual
materialists and virulent anti-Christians. And then there are those
who "never get to the point of raising questions about God, since they
seem to experience no religious stirrings nor do they see why they
should trouble themselves about religion" (GS 19). No doubt this
describes many of our neighbors, co-workers and even family members.
At the heart of atheism is an unbalanced desire for human independence
which excludes the reality of God. Man becomes the end of all things
and the "sole artisan and creator of his own history" (GS 20). John
Paul II recently made remarks in a similar vein, saying that "Being an
atheist . . . means not knowing the true nature of created reality but
absolutizing it, and therefore ‘idolizing' it, instead of considering
it a mark of the Creator and the path that leads to him." (John Paul
II, "Christian Response to Atheism," April 14, 1999 at the General
Audience). Along with this exclusive focus on humanity, modern atheism
strongly emphasizes technology, science and certain political
philosophies. These are held up as evidence of man's autonomy and his
ability to achieve a earthly utopia. Fr. Miceli writes that the
atheistic mentality and attitude "involves a flight from the invisible
toward the visible, from the transcendent towards the immanent, from
the spiritual toward the material in such a way that not only are the
invisible, transcendent and spiritual rejected as dimensions of
reality, but they are denied existence itself. . . . For atheism
receives its true, full meaning from the reality it rejects - God. It
represents a choice the creature makes of himself and his universe in
preference to his Creator." (Miceli, 2).
Atheists disagree widely among themselves about what it means to be an
atheist. Ignace Lepp, a convert to Catholicism from Marxism, observed
"It would not be at all false to say that there are as many atheisms
as atheists." (Ignace Lepp, Atheism In Our Time [New York: MacMillan
Publishing Co., 1963] 12). This presents a formidable challenge to the
Catholic apologist. It means being aware of how diverse are the
viewpoints within the world of atheism. In a way it is similar to
hearing someone say they are "Christian." That person could be
Catholic, Methodist, Anglican, Baptist or a member of several thousand
different denominations or sects (such as Mormons), each with
different beliefs. Similarly, there are many different types of
atheism, including weak atheism (lacking a belief in a God), strong
atheism (believing God cannot exist), disproof atheism (believing most
evidence points to God's nonexistence), methodological atheism
(claiming theists fail to give sufficient proof for God's existence),
mystical atheism (based on a private, subjective experience), and
faith atheism (believing in nonexistence of God based on "faith").
Forms of atheisms range from political ideologies (Marxism) to
scientific perspectives (Darwinian evolution) to existential
viewpoints (nihilism).
Michael Martin, a noted atheist apologist, gives a helpful definition
from the atheist perspective: "If you look up ‘atheism' in the
dictionary, you will probably find it defined as the belief that there
is no God. Certainly, many people understand atheism in this way. Yet
many atheists do not, and this is not what the term means if one
considers it from the point of view of its Greek roots. In Greek ‘a'
means ‘without' or ‘not' and ‘theos' means ‘god.' From this standpoint
an atheist would simply be someone without a belief in God, not
necessarily someone who believes that God does not exist. According to
its Greek roots, then, atheism is a negative view, characterized by
the absence of belief in God." (Michael Martin, Atheism: A
Philosophical Justification [Temple University Press, 1990) 463). Some
atheists prefer to be called freethinkers, rationalists, humanists or
agnostic. Often the differences appear to be little more than
semantics. But agnostics, who traditionally are ambivalent about man's
ability to know whether God exists or not, are often scorned by
staunch atheists, such as the infamous Madalyn Murray O'Hair, who once
sneered that "the agnostic is gutless and prefers to keep one safe
foot in the god camp." (Madalyn Murray O'Hair, from www.infidels.org).
With allies like that, one might be tempted to start searching for God
again!
Rejection of God, Worship of Man
"By the year 2000 we will, I hope, raise our children to believe in
human potential, not God" - Gloria Steinem, still hopeful feminist
Regardless of the varieties of atheism, most atheists we meet on the
street, in the workplace or at a secular university share a common
rejection of a god or gods, almost always the Christian God. Austin
Cline, who hosts an atheist website, says Christians need to realize
atheism is a rejection of all gods, not just the Christian God. He
claims Christians "also tend to make the serious error of focusing
only on the specific god in which they believe, failing to recognize
the fact that atheists don't focus on that god." (Austin Cline, "What
is Atheism?", http://www.about.com, Agnosticism/Atheism homepage). Yet
in reality this doesn't appear to be the case. Most atheists are
definitely anti-Christian and focus on the God of the Judeo-Christian
tradition. G.K. Chesterton, who regularly battled with atheists such
as George Bernard Shaw and H.G. Wells, defined atheism as a negative
which relies upon the positive it rejects: "Atheism is the supreme
example of a simple faith. The truth is that the atmosphere of
excitement by which the atheist lives, is an atmosphere of thrilled
and shuttering theism, and not of atheism at all; it is an atmosphere
of defiance and not of denial. . . . If there were not God, there
would be no atheists." ( G.K. Chesterton, "Where All Roads Lead,"
Collected Works, vol. 3 [San Francisco: Ignatius Press, 1990] 37-38).
This sort of rebellious spirit was summed up by Margaret Sanger, the
American freethinker who pioneered "birth control rights" whose motto
was "No gods, no masters."
Clarence Darrow, of Scopes "Monkey Trial" fame, once said "I don't
believe in God because I don't believe in Mother Goose." This view of
God as a myth and a childrens' fairy tale - on the same level as Santa
Claus and unicorns - is held by most atheists. Yet they don't explain
why it is that no sane adults believe in unicorns or Santa Claus, but
hundreds of millions of sane adults do still believe in God. O'Hair,
whose impact on American views of God can hardly be underestimated,
wrote that the "Atheist position is that the traditionalist historical
concepts of god [sic] are quite fallacious and that the notion of some
‘super power' is not now susceptible of proof by existing scientific
methods or by the accumulation of knowledge presently accessible to
man. Therefore Atheists live as if there were no god, no efficacy in
prayer, and no life after death. We are free from theism." (O'Hare,
ibid). Yes, free from, but where does that freedom ultimately lead? It
leads to an elevation, even a worship, of man, as the Catechism
states: "Atheistic humanism falsely considers man to be ‘an end to
himself, and the sole maker, with supreme control, of his own history"
(CCC 2124).
There are a couple of popular arguments used by atheists in attacking
God, sometimes used in unison. One is that the idea of an all-powerful
and all-loving God is inherently contradictory, especially in light of
rational reason and the existence of evil in the world. George Smith,
a popular atheist leader, declared "You simply cannot intelligibly
discuss, much less prove, the existence of an unknowable creature.
It's philosophically nonsense. The concept itself is meaningless."
(George Smith, "How to Defend Atheism," www.infidels.org/). However,
Smith's remark is not accurate. We can prove the existence of an
unknown, even if its inner nature remains a mystery to us. For
example, in the natural realm no one has ever seen atoms, but we
believe they exist. The existence of evil and suffering, according to
apologists such as St. Thomas Aquinas and C.S. Lewis, is the most
difficult problem for the Christian to address. It requires
understanding the nature of evil - it is not a thing, but a lack of
good - and the reality of man's free will.
Another argument against God is that He is violent and cruel. How else
to describe a Being who has condemned so many to eternal torment even
though they didn't know He existed? Kevin, the founder and president
of the "Freethinkers and Atheists' Society" in the city I reside in,
is especially adamant about God's cruel nature. In a letter to me he
wrote "It must be comforting thinking that you're going to heaven
where you can look down at the billions of souls screaming and
writhing in pain as their eyes melt out of their sockets over and over
again, their flesh constantly consumed by flame for all of eternity,
but never dying; all this courtesy of your all-compassionate and
loving friend jesus [sic]. . . . Do you find this condemnation the act
of a moral god? Eternal pain and torture for some simple transitory
human foible, the capability for which he personally designed into
you? If your god were real, I'd throw him in jail for the rest of
eternity. What Hitler did is nothing compared to what your supposed
god does every day. . . . This is a supposedly all-loving,
all-knowing, all-powerful being. Why would such a creature bother
creating an entire system where the vast majority of his creation will
spend all eternity burning in flames?" In my reply to Kevin, I noted
that his intensely emotional description of God left me with little
doubt about one thing: he apparently believes God exists! How else to
explain his furious hatred? Can someone really hate a non-entity that
much?
Both of these arguments are based in flawed understandings of the
Christian view of God, suffering, evil and hell. They are also rooted
in the kind of condescending arrogance so common among atheist
"intellectuals," such as the famous British mathematician Bertrand
Russell, author of Why I Am Not A Christian. He claimed that "what
really moves people to believe in God is not any intellectual argument
at all. Most people believe in God because they have been taught from
early infancy to do it, and that is the main reason." (Quoted in "Why
Bertrand Russell Was Not A Christian" by Rev. Ralph A. Smith,
www.berith.com/English/BR0013.html). He added it might also be because
of "the wish for safety, the sort of feeling that there is a big
brother who will look after you." This sort of profundity is also
exhibited in this common retort from atheists: "If God made
everything, then who made God?" Well, if God is the First Cause, then
no one could have made him, otherwise he wouldn't have been first.
Ironically, some people who ask this question are perfectly content to
point to Darwinian evolution or the Big Bang to explain the material
world without ever explaining who or what started those events.
I'm Rational Because I Said So!
"Religion . . . is the first enemy of the ability to think. . . .
Faith is the worst curse of mankind, as the exact antithesis and enemy
of thought." - Ayn Rand, novelist with an opinion
Atheists like the word "rational." They use it to describe themselves,
their beliefs and their methods. People who are religious, especially
Christians, are "irrational." Modern atheists claim that they use
reason and logic to arrive at their conclusions, while Christians do
not. This emphasis on reason means that the mind is the key to any
meaning that might exist. "Atheists simply assert that in order to
create meaning, you must have a functioning mind," Kevin argued in a
letter to me, "We all create our own meaning, and hence our own
version of morality, whether we want to believe it or not. There is no
one right way, no fundamental rule which applies in all
circumstances." So, truth is relative, morals are subjective and only
scientifically validated facts can be accepted. All others need not
apply.
This focus on reason is actually another way the atheist focuses on
man and excludes God. While the existence of a Supreme Being or First
Cause can be rationally argued, the inner life of the God of
revelation cannot be known through logic or scientific proofs. This
doesn't cut it for atheists since they only believe what they can
scientifically test: "Truth is the degree to which a statement
corresponds with reality. Reality is limited to that which is directly
perceivable through our natural senses or indirectly ascertained
through the proper use of reason. Reason is a tool of critical thought
that limits the truth of a statement according to the strict tests of
the scientific method. For a statement to be true it must be testable,
falsifiable, parsimonious, and logical." (Freedom From Religion
Foundation, Inc., Nontract #11).
However, is it really logical to claim that a mindless, meaningless
cosmos, after countless eons, coughed up rational minds that can
locate and pursue meaning? Where is the proof that rational, logical
thought should be the basis for our lives? If my meaning, created in
my mind, insists there is no logic or meaning to life, then what? What
justification does the atheist have for claiming we are material
accidents with no eternal, objective purpose in life and then turn
around and demand that we form meaning according to his "logical," but
unproven, premises. This lack of coherence in the purely naturalistic
and materialistic view is one of the weakest points of atheistic
thought, as philosopher James Sire points out: "[Can] a being whose
origins were so ‘iffy' trust his or her own capacity to know? . . . if
‘I' am only a thinking machine, how can I trust my thought?" (James W.
Sire, The Universe Next Door [Downer's Grove, IL: InterVarsity Press,
1988] 83).
Get That Cross Away From Me!
"I would never want to be a member of a group whose symbol was a guy
nailed to two pieces of wood." - George Carlin, not-so-funny comedian
Many atheists believe Christianity to be either dying or dead, with a
new era of enlightened, rational co-existence on the horizon.
Christianity is stale, boring, dry, mean and uptight. Atheism is hip,
fresh, open minded, exciting and open to custom-designed beliefs. For
most atheists Christianity is at best a child's crutch and at worse a
bloody and violent system of superstition and fear. Most atheists are
convinced Christians are superstitious, malicious, fairly stupid and
extremely uptight. Just about every problem in the world can be traced
back to Christians and their beliefs: "Although intending to be
absolute, modern atheism is, nevertheless, first of all an
anti-Christian attitude . . . It is, in fact, the Christian religion
which almost all atheists see as the obstacle to their idea of man and
his happiness." (Lepp, 12). In particular it is conservative
Protestantism and Catholicism which irritate atheists so badly.
Ironically, many atheists use many of the same time-worn arguments
that Fundamentalists use, such as pointing out every evil, real or
imagine, committed by a Catholic. This includes the obligatory
reference to "millions and millions" of people killed during the
Inquisitions, Crusades and assorted witch hunts. And where is the
scientific, historical evidence for these ludicrous claims? The
atheist, according to his own criteria, needs to scientifically prove
such allegations, but he cannot - such numbers are false.
The Bible is the butt of many jokes and jabs by atheists. Kevin
continually referred to the ancient Hebrews as "primitive desert
tribesman" in his correspondence with me. His remarks are full of
modern condescension towards ancient cultures and beliefs: "It seems
clear this teaching [Catholic doctrine] is nothing more than a
primitive human invention. Fairy tales, legends and myths. From
internally inconsistent, historically undocumentable writings by
primitive desert dwellers 2000 [sic] years ago. Writings that
legitimize slavery, the burning of "witches," treating mental illness
by exorcism, mass murder, rape, prostitution, castration, incest, and
torture or death as the just punishment for the act of questioning
church doctrine. Is it any wonder that more and more people are trying
to come up with a new set of values and myths to base their lives on?"
Christianity in general, and the Catholic Church in particular, is
denounced by atheists for the justification of "war, slavery, sexism,
racism, homophobia, mutilations, intolerance, and oppression of
minorities. The totalitarianism of religious absolutes chokes
progress." (Freedom From Religion Foundation, Inc., Nontract #11). But
isn't it odd that the biggest wars, the largest episodes of genocide
and the great ethnic discriminations of all time took place in this
century in atheistic, anti-Christian countries? The Catholic apologist
shouldn't fail to ask the atheist why more people died under atheistic
governments in this century alone than all previous history combined.
The number of deaths which Christians have been responsible for down
through the centuries can't even compare to a couple of years' work by
Stalin or Mao Tse-Tung. Tens of millions of murders took place under
atheistic Communist regimes since 1918. Where is the outcry by
atheists? Why are they so silent?
The Mystery (and Convenience) of Disbelief
"I don't have the evidence to prove that God doesn't exist, but I so
strongly suspect that he doesn't that I don't want to waste my time."
Isaac Asimov, sci-fi writer, now with plenty of time to waste in
eternity
Just as there are many forms of atheism, there are numerous reasons
given for being an atheist. Not surprisingly, many atheists claim that
logic and clear thinking have led them to their disbelief in God. But
Lepp, an atheist for most of his young adult years and also a
psychotherapist, doesn't agree: "When an atheist is interrogated on
his motives, he almost always makes much of the absurd state of
religious dogmas, of how impossible it is as a rational being to
subscribe to them. As a matter of fact, most atheists pretend to be
rationalists. They criticize religion from the point of view of
history or of the natural sciences. . . But in fact there are few
atheists, especially among educated men, who ar so for rigorously
rational motives." (Lepp, 14).
The Second Vatican Council taught that people become atheists due to a
"variety of causes, including a critical reaction against religious
beliefs, and in some places against the Christian religion in
particular" (GS 19). That seems obvious, but the next sentence is
crucial: "Hence believers can have more than a little to do with the
birth of atheism. To the extent that they neglect their own training
in the faith, or teach erroneous doctrine, or are deficient in their
religious, moral or social life, they must be said to conceal rather
than reveal the authentic face of God and religion" (GS 19). Atheist
literature, websites and arguments reflect this fact loudly and
clearly. Atheists take special issue with Catholicism because they see
it as detached, ultra-authoritarian and out of touch with the modern
world. Not surprisingly, most atheists demonstrate a faulty
understanding of most Church teaching and a sharp cynicism about the
perceived hypocrisy of most (if not all) Catholics. While some of
these perceptions are rooted in unfair bias and dislike, the failure
of Catholics to adequately explain and live their Faith is also to
blame. Thus the Council Fathers write that "The remedy which must be
applied to atheism, however, is to be sought in a proper presentation
of the Church's teaching as well as in the integral life of the Church
and her members" (GS 21). Intelligent and tempered apologetic and
evangelistic efforts are obviously a necessary part of this remedy.
Would You Like A Copy of the Summa? Latin or English?
"It is important to realize . . . that the apologist does not merely
proclaim the Faith (like a good evangelist or a bad dogmatist); he is
under no illusions about the role he plays, for he knows that the
Faith is full of mysteries which cannot be completely ‘proved' and
that to give this Faith to anyone is far above his capability . . ." -
Dr. Jeffrey A. Mirus, "Apologetics: Forgotten Science, Lost Art"
Atheism is a difficult and serious challenge to the Catholic
apologist. My personal experience, as a former Evangelical Christian,
is that I am more comfortable talking to a Protestant than to an
atheist. After talking with an atheist you realize how much we really
do hold in common with other Christians, even anti-Catholic
Fundamentalists. Atheism requires the apologist to have at least a
cursory knowledge of philosophy and science; it also means putting in
some time understanding the various forms and types of atheistic
thought.
It is helpful to be familiar with some of the classic arguments for
the existence of God, including St. Anselm's ontological argument and
St. Thomas's famous five proofs (Summa Theologica, I, qq. 2), four of
which are different versions of the first-cause argument. The fifth is
the argument from design, which Catholic apologist Frank Sheed thought
was the most useful in his street corner talks. Others include the
argument from conscience, which asks the atheist why it is that
everyone seems to have a sense of what is good and evil. C.S. Lewis
summed it up in two points: "First, that human beings, all over the
earth, have this curious idea that they ought to behave in a certain
way, and cannot really get rid of it. Secondly, that they do not in
fact behave in that way. They know the Law of Nature; they break it.
These two facts are the foundation of all clear thinking about
ourselves and the universe we live in." (C. S. Lewis, Mere
Christianity [London: Collins, 1961] 19).
Another argument is Blaise Pascal's famous Wager. Pascal, a brilliant
mathematician and apologist, essentially said that if the atheist is
right, then both he and the Christian will die and that will be it.
But if the Christian is right, the atheist has everything to lose and
the Christian everything to gain. So the Christian is more logical in
believing in God since it places him in the best position once he
dies. Many atheists will admit the logic of the argument, but then
will ask, "But which god? Why yours?" You then need to show the
uniqueness of Jesus Christ and the religion he founded. Two excellent
books which summarize these arguments (and much more) are Fundamentals
of the Faith by Peter Kreeft and Handbook of Christian Apologetics by
Kreeft and Fr. Ronald Tacelli.
While the apologist can offer good proofs for the existence of God, he
cannot prove the existence of the Triune God of revelation by means of
logic alone. He can only go so far with logic and arguments, since
grace and revelation is beyond mere human logic. Regarding Aquinas and
the proofs for God, Dr. Ralph McInerny writes that "The distinction
between nature and grace, between the natural use of human reason and
reasoning which is aided by grace and revelation, makes it clear that
while Thomas holds that theism is natural and relatively easily
attained, he does not regard this as making the further step into
Christian belief as a continuation of the same sort of thinking." (Dr.
Ralph McInerny, "Why The Burden of Proof Is On the Atheist" at
http://origins.org). In the end there must be an encounter with Jesus
Christ, as the Holy Father so beautifully expressed in his most recent
encyclical: "Reason cannot eliminate the mystery of love which the
Cross represents, while the Cross can give the reason the ultimate
answer which it seeks" (Fides et Ratio 23).
Does He or Doesn't He?
In the final letter Kevin wrote to me, he made an astounding
statement: "I never stated ‘there is no God.' A supernatural being may
exist. I would submit, however, that YOUR God doesn't exist, since
your concept of God is internally self-contradictory . . ." In the end
this particular atheist didn't deny the existence of God, but rather
denied his own standards of logic and reason. For an atheist to claim
a "supernatural being" might be out there, but to then reject the
Christian God indicates a belief that is not rooted in rational
thinking, but in a spiritual crisis. Atheism is rooted in spiritual
blindness, which only the Holy Spirit can heal. Our job as apologists
and evangelists is to be in accord, through patience and prayer, with
the heart and mind of the Church, who "courteously invites atheists to
examine the Gospel of Christ with an open mind." (GS 21).
http://www.carl-olson.com/articles/atheism_envoy.html
.
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| User: "ci+" |
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| Title: Re: The Blind Faith of Atheism |
25 Aug 2004 11:47:27 PM |
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|
(ohoe) in news:d0507f0b.0408230422.4cbc9b24
@posting.google.com:
The Blind Faith of Atheism
by Carl E. Olson.
Envoy magazine. Volume 3.4. 1999.
"The first requisite for the happiness of the people is the abolition
of religion" - Karl Marx, still unhappy
still dead.
Up until a century ago atheism was largely the exclusive philosophical
obsession of ideologues, revolutionaries and the rich. Ordinary people
weren't atheists, or at least would never consider saying as much.
i wasn't old enough a century ago to interview any common folks
Times have dramatically changed. While a majority of Americans still
consider themselves "believers" of some sort, who have "faith" of some
type, it is increasingly uncertain exactly what they believe or who
they have faith in.
dinero
In fact, more and more people are letting it be
known what they don't believe in and who they don't have faith in. As
mainline Protestant churches wilt in indecision and uncertainty in the
face of abortion, euthanasia and homosexuality, many of their members
are leaving. And while some will join more conservative churches, a
significant number are turning their backs on Christianity and God,
through either outright rejection or quiet indifference. Many
Catholics, poorly catechized
catechizer?
do they put you in that beofre, or after, the iron maiden?
and questioning the relevance of the
Church, are doing the same. Becoming an atheist, or living as though
one were, isn't just for the intelligentsia anymore - it has entered
the mainstream. What are some of the key features of this growing
worldview? How can Catholics make a coherent and firm defense for the
Christian Faith? Why do we need to take atheism so seriously?
if our religoius, obvoiusly ou *don't* take atheism or agnosticism
seroiusly. else you wouldn't be religoius.
As Many Atheisms as Atheists
"An Atheist loves himself and his fellow man instead of god. An
Atheist knows that heaven is something for which we should work now -
here on earth." - Madalyn Murray O'Hair, infamous and missing atheist
might still be dead.
In his landmark
never noticed it before. maybe i've never driven that route. what road
is it on?
work The Gods of Atheism, Fr. Vincent P. Miceli wrote
that atheism is "perhaps the most serious spiritual affliction of
modern man." (Vincent P. Miceli, SJ, The Gods of Atheism [Harrison,
NY: Roman Catholic Books, 1971] 9). The severity of this affliction
was recognized by the Second Vatican Council. In Gaudium et Spes (GS),
the Pastoral Constitution on the Church in the Modern World, the
Council Fathers stated that "atheism must be accounted among the most
serious problems of this age, and is deserving of closer examination"
ok... 2004-1971 = 33yrs. any of that 2nd vat council still catholic?
(GS 19). In three compact, but rich paragraphs (GS 19-21), the Council
made a number of observations about atheism which are helpful for all
Catholics, including those active in apologetics and evangelization.
The Fathers recognized that atheism is complex and multifaceted,
embracing numerous perspectives loosely bound around a core disbelief
or denial of God.
uh, ok...
To unthinkingly stereotype atheists as simply
immoral unbelievers
make up your mind.
guarantees frustration and failure in dealing with
them. Gaudium et Spes describes some of the varieties of unbelievers,
including those who deny God outright, ambivalent agnostics, wary
skeptics, calculating rationalists, doubtful philosophers, sensual
materialists and virulent anti-Christians. And then there are those
who "never get to the point of raising questions about God, since they
seem to experience no religious stirrings nor do they see why they
should trouble themselves about religion" (GS 19). No doubt this
describes many of our neighbors, co-workers and even family members.
At the heart of atheism is an unbalanced desire for human independence
which excludes the reality of God.
what is a 'balnced desire for human independence'?
Man becomes the end of all things
and the "sole artisan and creator of his own history" (GS 20).
tha'ts a catholic VP?
Rejection of God, Worship of Man
Regardless of the varieties of atheism, most atheists we meet on the
"also tend to make the serious error of focusing
only on the specific god in which they believe, failing to recognize
the fact that atheists don't focus on that god." (Austin Cline, "What
is Atheism?", http://www.about.com, Agnosticism/Atheism homepage). Yet
in reality this doesn't appear to be the case. Most atheists are
definitely anti-Christian and focus on the God of the Judeo-Christian
tradition. G.K. Chesterton, who regularly battled with atheists such
as George Bernard Shaw and H.G. Wells, defined atheism as a negative
which relies upon the positive it rejects: "Atheism is the supreme
example of a simple faith. The truth is that the atmosphere of
excitement by which the atheist lives, is an atmosphere of thrilled
and shuttering theism, and not of atheism at all; it is an atmosphere
of defiance and not of denial. . . . If there were not God, there
would be no atheists." ( G.K. Chesterton, "Where All Roads Lead,"
Collected Works, vol. 3 [San Francisco: Ignatius Press, 1990] 37-38).
um.. if A, then B. If B, then A. therefore, A & B. wow...
This sort of rebellious spirit was summed up by Margaret Sanger, the
American freethinker who pioneered "birth control rights" whose motto
was "No gods, no masters."
Clarence Darrow, of Scopes "Monkey Trial" fame, once said "I don't
believe in God because I don't believe in Mother Goose."
hmmm... if mother goose didn't exist, clarence darrow wouldn't exist..
hmmm. clarence darrow, still dead. coincidnece? or conspiracy?
This view of
God as a myth and a childrens' fairy tale - on the same level as Santa
Claus and unicorns - is held by most atheists. Yet they don't explain
why it is that no sane adults believe in unicorns or Santa Claus, but
hundreds of millions of sane adults do still believe in God.
who assumed unicorn cultists aren't 'sane'?
if goddists are 'sane', unicornists are just as sane. unicornists are
not as numerous as goddists, but not necessarily more or less sane than
goddists.
well. whatever. im not theist, but i understand thier VP.
--
Throw a Gollum on the barbee for me.
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| User: "ci+" |
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| Title: Re: The Blind Faith of Atheism |
25 Aug 2004 11:48:39 PM |
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"ci+" <ci@ciNukeSpam.com> in news:Xns9550DD0F26F08ci@65.245.115.2:
well. whatever. im not theist, but i understand thier VP.
oops, critical typo
im not Atheist, but i understand thier VP.
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| User: "Robibnikoff" |
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| Title: Re: The Blind Faith of Atheism |
26 Aug 2004 06:21:51 AM |
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"ci+" <ci@ciNukeSpam.com> wrote in message
news:Xns9550DD4424467ci@65.245.115.2...
"ci+" <ci@ciNukeSpam.com> in news:Xns9550DD0F26F08ci@65.245.115.2:
well. whatever. im not theist, but i understand thier VP.
oops, critical typo
Which one? You've got about six.
im not Atheist, but i understand thier VP.
We have a vice president? Who knew?
--
__________
Robyn
Resident Witchypoo
#1557
.
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| User: "Mark K. Bilbo" |
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| Title: Re: The Blind Faith of Atheism |
26 Aug 2004 06:55:18 AM |
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On Thu, 26 Aug 2004 07:21:51 -0400 in episode
<2p5vebFh9fcsU1@uni-berlin.de> we saw our hero "Robibnikoff"
<witchypoo@broomstick.com>:
"ci+" <ci@ciNukeSpam.com> wrote in message
news:Xns9550DD4424467ci@65.245.115.2...
"ci+" <ci@ciNukeSpam.com> in news:Xns9550DD0F26F08ci@65.245.115.2:
well. whatever. im not theist, but i understand thier VP.
oops, critical typo
Which one? You've got about six.
im not Atheist, but i understand thier VP.
We have a vice president? Who knew?
Well, *somebody has to organize the vice around here!
--
Mark K. Bilbo - a.a. #1423
EAC Department of Linguistic Subversion
Alt-atheism website at: http://www.alt-atheism.org
-----------------------------------------------------------
"Often anger is a sign of engagement with life. People who
are angry are touched deeply by the events of their lives
and feel strongly about them....Anger is just a demand for
change, a passionate wish for things to be different....
And, as it was for me, it may be the first expression of
the will to live." -- Rachel Naomi Remen
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| User: "raven1" |
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| Title: Re: The Blind Faith of Atheism |
26 Aug 2004 02:44:59 PM |
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On Thu, 26 Aug 2004 06:55:18 -0500, "Mark K. Bilbo"
<alt-atheism@org.webmaster> wrote:
On Thu, 26 Aug 2004 07:21:51 -0400 in episode
<2p5vebFh9fcsU1@uni-berlin.de> we saw our hero "Robibnikoff"
<witchypoo@broomstick.com>:
"ci+" <ci@ciNukeSpam.com> wrote in message
news:Xns9550DD4424467ci@65.245.115.2...
"ci+" <ci@ciNukeSpam.com> in news:Xns9550DD0F26F08ci@65.245.115.2:
well. whatever. im not theist, but i understand thier VP.
oops, critical typo
Which one? You've got about six.
im not Atheist, but i understand thier VP.
We have a vice president? Who knew?
Well, *somebody has to organize the vice around here!
That would be me, actually...
raven1
Atheist #1096
Official EAC Vice-President (President in charge of Vice)
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| User: "Billy Goat" |
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| Title: Re: The Blind Faith of Atheism |
23 Aug 2004 03:13:50 PM |
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(ohoe) wrote in message news:<d0507f0b.0408230422.4cbc9b24@posting.google.com>...
The Blind Faith of Atheism
by Carl E. Olson.
Envoy magazine. Volume 3.4. 1999.
<snip>
Becoming an atheist, or living as though
one were, isn't just for the intelligentsia anymore - it has entered
the mainstream. What are some of the key features of this growing
worldview? How can Catholics make a coherent and firm defense for the
Christian Faith? Why do we need to take atheism so seriously?
That's what I'd like to know. Why does the Catholic Church think they
need to take atheism so seriously? If they truly believe that Heaven
is for the fatihful, then they must believe that only the Hell-bound
have a faith weak enough to lead to atheism. So why not just sit back
and let atheism do its job of keeping the unworthy out of Heaven? Why
persecute atheists on earth... unless, deep down, you don't trust
God's Judgment in the afterlife?
--Billy
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| User: "Alan Wostenberg" |
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| Title: Re: The Blind Faith of Atheism |
23 Aug 2004 09:50:41 PM |
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Billy Goat wrote:
oohoe@lycos.com (ohoe) wrote in message news:<d0507f0b.0408230422.4cbc9b24@posting.google.com>...
The Blind Faith of Atheism
by Carl E. Olson.
Envoy magazine. Volume 3.4. 1999.
<snip>
Becoming an atheist, or living as though
one were, isn't just for the intelligentsia anymore - it has entered
the mainstream. What are some of the key features of this growing
worldview? How can Catholics make a coherent and firm defense for the
Christian Faith? Why do we need to take atheism so seriously?
That's what I'd like to know. Why does the Catholic Church think they
need to take atheism so seriously? If they truly believe that Heaven
is for the fatihful, then they must believe that only the Hell-bound
have a faith weak enough to lead to atheism. So why not just sit back
and let atheism do its job of keeping the unworthy out of Heaven?
Friends don't let friends go to hell.
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| User: "Billy Goat" |
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| Title: Re: The Blind Faith of Atheism |
24 Aug 2004 04:07:46 PM |
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Alan Wostenberg <awostenbergNospam@psalmweaver.com> wrote in message news:<412AAD01.9050602@psalmweaver.com>...
Billy Goat wrote:
oohoe@lycos.com (ohoe) wrote in message news:<d0507f0b.0408230422.4cbc9b24@posting.google.com>...
The Blind Faith of Atheism
by Carl E. Olson.
Envoy magazine. Volume 3.4. 1999.
<snip>
Becoming an atheist, or living as though
one were, isn't just for the intelligentsia anymore - it has entered
the mainstream. What are some of the key features of this growing
worldview? How can Catholics make a coherent and firm defense for the
Christian Faith? Why do we need to take atheism so seriously?
That's what I'd like to know. Why does the Catholic Church think they
need to take atheism so seriously? If they truly believe that Heaven
is for the fatihful, then they must believe that only the Hell-bound
have a faith weak enough to lead to atheism. So why not just sit back
and let atheism do its job of keeping the unworthy out of Heaven?
Friends don't let friends go to hell.
Sounds like men conspiring against God's Judgment.
Why be friends with someone who's going to Hell? Hell is where even
God's love does not reach. If even God refuses love your friends, why
should you? And if you know your friends are going to Hell, how can
you love the God who plans to send them there?
--Billy
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| User: "Alan Wostenberg" |
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| Title: Re: The Blind Faith of Atheism |
24 Aug 2004 10:40:23 PM |
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Billy Goat wrote:
Alan Wostenberg <awostenbergNospam@psalmweaver.com> wrote in message news:<412AAD01.9050602@psalmweaver.com>...
Billy Goat wrote:
That's what I'd like to know. Why does the Catholic Church think they
need to take atheism so seriously? If they truly believe that Heaven
is for the fatihful, then they must believe that only the Hell-bound
have a faith weak enough to lead to atheism. So why not just sit back
and let atheism do its job of keeping the unworthy out of Heaven?
Friends don't let friends go to hell.
Sounds like men conspiring against God's Judgment.
Why be friends with someone who's going to Hell? Hell is where even
God's love does not reach. If even God refuses love your friends, why
should you? And if you know your friends are going to Hell, how can
you love the God who plans to send them there?
That's logical. If my friend is going to hell so am I, and we are both
God's enemy. This reminds me of GK Chesterton's christmas card
Noel noel noel noel
may all my enemies go to hell
-- Alan Wostenberg
Got beads? http://www.theLightOfHeaven.com
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| User: "Dave" |
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| Title: Re: The Blind Faith of Atheism |
23 Aug 2004 03:45:43 PM |
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(ohoe) wrote in message news:<d0507f0b.0408230422.4cbc9b24@posting.google.com>...
The Blind Faith of Atheism
by Carl E. Olson.
Envoy magazine. Volume 3.4. 1999.
No matter how many times Carl Olson's rubbish is reposted, it will
still be rubbish. Carl Olsen lacks the intellectual honesty to
acknowledge the gaping holes in his own pathetic arguments, but takes
every opportunity to slander and misconstrue, pretending, of course,
to be polite about it. Obviously he was indoctrinated as a child and
has no idea why he believes what he believes.
.
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| User: "BDK" |
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| Title: Re: The Blind Faith of Atheism |
24 Aug 2004 02:19:56 AM |
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In article <d0507f0b.0408230422.4cbc9b24@posting.google.com>,=20
oohoe@lycos.com says...
The Blind Faith of Atheism
=20
by Carl E. Olson.=20
Envoy magazine. Volume 3.4. 1999.
=20
=20
"The first requisite for the happiness of the people is the abolition
of religion" - Karl Marx, still unhappy
=20
Up until a century ago atheism was largely the exclusive philosophical
obsession of ideologues, revolutionaries and the rich. Ordinary people
weren't atheists, or at least would never consider saying as much.
Most people still won't, as it causes a lot of hassles with believers in=20
the family, let alone friends and employers/fellow employees. This is=20
almost all caused by the believer's attitudes, BTW.
Times have dramatically changed. While a majority of Americans still
consider themselves "believers" of some sort, who have "faith" of some
type, it is increasingly uncertain exactly what they believe or who
they have faith in. In fact, more and more people are letting it be
known what they don't believe in and who they don't have faith in. As
mainline Protestant churches wilt in indecision and uncertainty in the
face of abortion, euthanasia and homosexuality, many of their members
are leaving. And while some will join more conservative churches, a
significant number are turning their backs on Christianity and God,
through either outright rejection or quiet indifference.=20
Yeah, I figured it out when I was a little kid..no more nonsense for me.=20
Outright rejection is my choice..
Many
Catholics, poorly catechized and questioning the relevance of the
Church, are doing the same. Becoming an atheist, or living as though
one were, isn't just for the intelligentsia anymore - it has entered
the mainstream. What are some of the key features of this growing
worldview? How can Catholics make a coherent and firm defense for the
Christian Faith? Why do we need to take atheism so seriously?
It's gonna cut down on the take! This isn't rocket science! If you don't=20
brainwash the kids, their kids wont get brainwashed and pretty soon,=20
your (the church) income starts dropping. The bean counters at the=20
Vatican would get very concerned, as this could be big in 40-60 years..
=20
As Many Atheisms as Atheists
=20
"An Atheist loves himself and his fellow man instead of god. An
Atheist knows that heaven is something for which we should work now -
here on earth." - Madalyn Murray O'Hair, infamous and missing atheist
She's dead you know, and no one really cares. Except believers who seem=20
to think she was "The Atheist Leader". She wasn't.
=20
In his landmark work The Gods of Atheism, Fr. Vincent P. Miceli wrote
that atheism is "perhaps the most serious spiritual affliction of
modern man." (Vincent P. Miceli, SJ, The Gods of Atheism [Harrison,
NY: Roman Catholic Books, 1971] 9). The severity of this affliction
was recognized by the Second Vatican Council.=20
Yeah, between atheism and the priest molesting scandal, this could be a=20
huge blow to "profits".
In Gaudium et Spes (GS),
the Pastoral Constitution on the Church in the Modern World, the
Council Fathers stated that "atheism must be accounted among the most
serious problems of this age, and is deserving of closer examination"
(GS 19). In three compact, but rich paragraphs (GS 19-21), the Council
made a number of observations about atheism which are helpful for all
Catholics, including those active in apologetics and evangelization.
The Fathers recognized that atheism is complex and multifaceted,
embracing numerous perspectives loosely bound around a core disbelief
or denial of God. To unthinkingly stereotype atheists as simply
immoral unbelievers guarantees frustration and failure in dealing with
them. Gaudium et Spes describes some of the varieties of unbelievers,
including those who deny God outright, ambivalent agnostics, wary
skeptics, calculating rationalists, doubtful philosophers, sensual
materialists and virulent anti-Christians. And then there are those
who "never get to the point of raising questions about God, since they
seem to experience no religious stirrings nor do they see why they
should trouble themselves about religion" (GS 19). No doubt this
describes many of our neighbors, co-workers and even family members.
This is a way of being a "closet atheist", without admitting it. Keeps=20
peace in the family, dont ya know. I have several friends who keep quiet=20
due to family pressure, AKA "Mom would go nuts if you told her".
=20
At the heart of atheism is an unbalanced desire for human independence
which excludes the reality of God.=20
Unbalanced?? LOL. How Ironic.
Man becomes the end of all things
and the "sole artisan and creator of his own history" (GS 20). John
Paul II recently made remarks in a similar vein, saying that "Being an
atheist . . . means not knowing the true nature of created reality but
absolutizing it, and therefore =91idolizing' it, instead of considering
it a mark of the Creator and the path that leads to him." (John Paul
II, "Christian Response to Atheism," April 14, 1999 at the General
Audience). Along with this exclusive focus on humanity, modern atheism
strongly emphasizes technology, science and certain political
philosophies. These are held up as evidence of man's autonomy and his
ability to achieve a earthly utopia.=20
A Utopia?? Never gonna happen. Even ifreligion were gone, there would=20
still be a lot of strife in the world. But there would be a lot less of=20
it.
Fr. Miceli writes that the
atheistic mentality and attitude "involves a flight from the invisible
toward the visible, from the transcendent towards the immanent, from
the spiritual toward the material in such a way that not only are the
invisible, transcendent and spiritual rejected as dimensions of
reality, but they are denied existence itself. . . . For atheism
receives its true, full meaning from the reality it rejects - God. It
represents a choice the creature makes of himself and his universe in
preference to his Creator." (Miceli, 2).
Mindless gobbledegook. (what a word!)
=20
Atheists disagree widely among themselves about what it means to be an
atheist. Ignace Lepp, a convert to Catholicism from Marxism, observed
"It would not be at all false to say that there are as many atheisms
as atheists." (Ignace Lepp, Atheism In Our Time [New York: MacMillan
Publishing Co., 1963] 12). This presents a formidable challenge to the
Catholic apologist. It means being aware of how diverse are the
viewpoints within the world of atheism. In a way it is similar to
hearing someone say they are "Christian." That person could be
Catholic, Methodist, Anglican, Baptist or a member of several thousand
different denominations or sects (such as Mormons), each with
different beliefs. Similarly, there are many different types of
atheism, including weak atheism (lacking a belief in a God), strong
atheism (believing God cannot exist), disproof atheism (believing most
evidence points to God's nonexistence), methodological atheism
(claiming theists fail to give sufficient proof for God's existence),
mystical atheism (based on a private, subjective experience), and
faith atheism (believing in nonexistence of God based on "faith").
Forms of atheisms range from political ideologies (Marxism) to
scientific perspectives (Darwinian evolution) to existential
viewpoints (nihilism).
Up to the Marxist and Darwin insanity at the end of this paragraph, this=20
actually makes sense, and seems correct. Marxism and Darwin have nothing=20
to do with atheism in any direct way, if at all. I have believer friends=20
who totally accept evolution, and athiest friends who are political=20
conservatives.
=20
Michael Martin, a noted atheist apologist, gives a helpful definition
from the atheist perspective: "If you look up =91atheism' in the
dictionary, you will probably find it defined as the belief that there
is no God. Certainly, many people understand atheism in this way. Yet
many atheists do not, and this is not what the term means if one
considers it from the point of view of its Greek roots. In Greek =91a'
means =91without' or =91not' and =91theos' means =91god.' From this stand=
point
an atheist would simply be someone without a belief in God, not
necessarily someone who believes that God does not exist. According to
its Greek roots, then, atheism is a negative view, characterized by
the absence of belief in God." (Michael Martin, Atheism: A
Philosophical Justification [Temple University Press, 1990) 463).=20
Finally, someone gets it right.
Some
atheists prefer to be called freethinkers, rationalists, humanists or
agnostic. Often the differences appear to be little more than
semantics. But agnostics, who traditionally are ambivalent about man's
ability to know whether God exists or not, are often scorned by
staunch atheists, such as the infamous Madalyn Murray O'Hair, who once
sneered that "the agnostic is gutless and prefers to keep one safe
foot in the god camp." (Madalyn Murray O'Hair, from www.infidels.org).
With allies like that, one might be tempted to start searching for God
again!
She always was over the top anyway.=20
=20
Rejection of God, Worship of Man
=20
"By the year 2000 we will, I hope, raise our children to believe in
human potential, not God" - Gloria Steinem, still hopeful feminist
She's a wishful thinker..
=20
Regardless of the varieties of atheism, most atheists we meet on the
street, in the workplace or at a secular university share a common
rejection of a god or gods, almost always the Christian God.=20
The "most popular" one always gets the most attention. Like viruses and=20
Windows.
Austin
Cline, who hosts an atheist website, says Christians need to realize
atheism is a rejection of all gods, not just the Christian God. He
claims Christians "also tend to make the serious error of focusing
only on the specific god in which they believe, failing to recognize
the fact that atheists don't focus on that god." (Austin Cline, "What
is Atheism?", http://www.about.com, Agnosticism/Atheism homepage). Yet
in reality this doesn't appear to be the case. Most atheists are
definitely anti-Christian and focus on the God of the Judeo-Christian
tradition. G.K. Chesterton, who regularly battled with atheists such
as George Bernard Shaw and H.G. Wells, defined atheism as a negative
which relies upon the positive it rejects: "Atheism is the supreme
example of a simple faith. The truth is that the atmosphere of
excitement by which the atheist lives, is an atmosphere of thrilled
and shuttering theism, and not of atheism at all; it is an atmosphere
of defiance and not of denial. . . . If there were not God, there
would be no atheists." ( G.K. Chesterton, "Where All Roads Lead,"
Collected Works, vol. 3 [San Francisco: Ignatius Press, 1990] 37-38).
This sort of rebellious spirit was summed up by Margaret Sanger, the
American freethinker who pioneered "birth control rights" whose motto
was "No gods, no masters."
No, a better term might be "If there were not god, there would be no=20
atheists, since that word wouldn't exist". "Thrilled theism"?? What=20
nonsense..
=20
Clarence Darrow, of Scopes "Monkey Trial" fame, once said "I don't
believe in God because I don't believe in Mother Goose." This view of
God as a myth and a childrens' fairy tale - on the same level as Santa
Claus and unicorns - is held by most atheists.=20
That's correct.=20
Yet they don't explain
why it is that no sane adults believe in unicorns or Santa Claus, but
hundreds of millions of sane adults do still believe in God. O'Hair,
whose impact on American views of God can hardly be underestimated,
wrote that the "Atheist position is that the traditionalist historical
concepts of god [sic] are quite fallacious and that the notion of some
=91super power' is not now susceptible of proof by existing scientific
methods or by the accumulation of knowledge presently accessible to
man. Therefore Atheists live as if there were no god, no efficacy in
prayer, and no life after death. We are free from theism." (O'Hare,
ibid). Yes, free from, but where does that freedom ultimately lead? It
leads to an elevation, even a worship, of man, as the Catechism
states: "Atheistic humanism falsely considers man to be =91an end to
himself, and the sole maker, with supreme control, of his own history"
(CCC 2124).
MMO'H had no real impact on American views of god. She didn't convert=20
anyone. She just happened to be a loudmouth who was involved in a famous=20
court case. Who would worship man??=20
=20
There are a couple of popular arguments used by atheists in attacking
God, sometimes used in unison. One is that the idea of an all-powerful
and all-loving God is inherently contradictory, especially in light of
rational reason and the existence of evil in the world. George Smith,
a popular atheist leader, declared "You simply cannot intelligibly
discuss, much less prove, the existence of an unknowable creature.
It's philosophically nonsense. The concept itself is meaningless."
(George Smith, "How to Defend Atheism," www.infidels.org/).=20
Sounds about right.
However,
Smith's remark is not accurate. We can prove the existence of an
unknown, even if its inner nature remains a mystery to us. For
example, in the natural realm no one has ever seen atoms, but we
believe they exist.=20
Umm, I guess this guy never saw pics of them?? The pics have been around=20
for a while now..
The existence of evil and suffering, according to
apologists such as St. Thomas Aquinas and C.S. Lewis, is the most
difficult problem for the Christian to address. It requires
understanding the nature of evil - it is not a thing, but a lack of
good - and the reality of man's free will.
Oh no, not the "free will" nonsense! Please, don't go there..
=20
Another argument against God is that He is violent and cruel. How else
to describe a Being who has condemned so many to eternal torment even
though they didn't know He existed? Kevin, the founder and president
of the "Freethinkers and Atheists' Society" in the city I reside in,
is especially adamant about God's cruel nature. In a letter to me he
wrote "It must be comforting thinking that you're going to heaven
where you can look down at the billions of souls screaming and
writhing in pain as their eyes melt out of their sockets over and over
again, their flesh constantly consumed by flame for all of eternity,
but never dying; all this courtesy of your all-compassionate and
loving friend jesus [sic]. . . . Do you find this condemnation the act
of a moral god? Eternal pain and torture for some simple transitory
human foible, the capability for which he personally designed into
you? If your god were real, I'd throw him in jail for the rest of
eternity. What Hitler did is nothing compared to what your supposed
god does every day. . . . This is a supposedly all-loving,
all-knowing, all-powerful being. Why would such a creature bother
creating an entire system where the vast majority of his creation will
spend all eternity burning in flames?" In my reply to Kevin, I noted
that his intensely emotional description of God left me with little
doubt about one thing: he apparently believes God exists! How else to
explain his furious hatred? Can someone really hate a non-entity that
much?
LOL, it's the logical response to the god told of in the bible! It's not=20
"hating a non-entity", it's explaining, emotionally, yes, his reaction=20
to such a being, IF it existed.
=20
Both of these arguments are based in flawed understandings of the
Christian view of God, suffering, evil and hell. They are also rooted
in the kind of condescending arrogance so common among atheist
"intellectuals," such as the famous British mathematician Bertrand
Russell, author of Why I Am Not A Christian. He claimed that "what
really moves people to believe in God is not any intellectual argument
at all. Most people believe in God because they have been taught from
early infancy to do it, and that is the main reason." (Quoted in "Why
Bertrand Russell Was Not A Christian" by Rev. Ralph A. Smith,
www.berith.com/English/BR0013.html). He added it might also be because
of "the wish for safety, the sort of feeling that there is a big
brother who will look after you." This sort of profundity is also
exhibited in this common retort from atheists: "If God made
everything, then who made God?" Well, if God is the First Cause, then
no one could have made him, otherwise he wouldn't have been first.
Ironically, some people who ask this question are perfectly content to
point to Darwinian evolution or the Big Bang to explain the material
world without ever explaining who or what started those events.
LOL. I think he's frustrated.
=20
I'm Rational Because I Said So!
=20
"Religion . . . is the first enemy of the ability to think. . . .
Faith is the worst curse of mankind, as the exact antithesis and enemy
of thought." - Ayn Rand, novelist with an opinion
Proven true every day, all over the world..
=20
Atheists like the word "rational." They use it to describe themselves,
their beliefs and their methods. People who are religious, especially
Christians, are "irrational." Modern atheists claim that they use
reason and logic to arrive at their conclusions, while Christians do
not. This emphasis on reason means that the mind is the key to any
meaning that might exist. "Atheists simply assert that in order to
create meaning, you must have a functioning mind," Kevin argued in a
letter to me, "We all create our own meaning, and hence our own
version of morality, whether we want to believe it or not. There is no
one right way, no fundamental rule which applies in all
circumstances." So, truth is relative, morals are subjective and only
scientifically validated facts can be accepted. All others need not
apply.
Truth isn't all relative, not committing murder is just common sense.=20
=20
This focus on reason is actually another way the atheist focuses on
man and excludes God. While the existence of a Supreme Being or First
Cause can be rationally argued, the inner life of the God of
revelation cannot be known through logic or scientific proofs. This
doesn't cut it for atheists since they only believe what they can
scientifically test: "Truth is the degree to which a statement
corresponds with reality. Reality is limited to that which is directly
perceivable through our natural senses or indirectly ascertained
through the proper use of reason. Reason is a tool of critical thought
that limits the truth of a statement according to the strict tests of
the scientific method. For a statement to be true it must be testable,
falsifiable, parsimonious, and logical." (Freedom From Religion
Foundation, Inc., Nontract #11).
And everyone should just accept teachings about a being that can't be=20
proven? A being who's "book" (bible) is full of nonsensical stories and=20
tales?? Please.
=20
However, is it really logical to claim that a mindless, meaningless
cosmos, after countless eons, coughed up rational minds that can
locate and pursue meaning? Where is the proof that rational, logical
thought should be the basis for our lives? If my meaning, created in
my mind, insists there is no logic or meaning to life, then what? What
justification does the atheist have for claiming we are material
accidents with no eternal, objective purpose in life and then turn
around and demand that we form meaning according to his "logical," but
unproven, premises. This lack of coherence in the purely naturalistic
and materialistic view is one of the weakest points of atheistic
thought, as philosopher James Sire points out: "[Can] a being whose
origins were so =91iffy' trust his or her own capacity to know? . . . if
=91I' am only a thinking machine, how can I trust my thought?" (James W.
Sire, The Universe Next Door [Downer's Grove, IL: InterVarsity Press,
1988] 83).
Oh here we go, the purpose in life stuff. Your primary purpose is to=20
reproduce, just like all other animals.=20
=20
Get That Cross Away From Me!
=20
"I would never want to be a member of a group whose symbol was a guy
nailed to two pieces of wood." - George Carlin, not-so-funny comedian
=20
Many atheists believe Christianity to be either dying or dead, with a
new era of enlightened, rational co-existence on the horizon.
Christianity is stale, boring, dry, mean and uptight. Atheism is hip,
fresh, open minded, exciting and open to custom-designed beliefs. For
most atheists Christianity is at best a child's crutch and at worse a
bloody and violent system of superstition and fear. Most atheists are
convinced Christians are superstitious, malicious, fairly stupid and
extremely uptight. Just about every problem in the world can be traced
back to Christians and their beliefs: "Although intending to be
absolute, modern atheism is, nevertheless, first of all an
anti-Christian attitude . . . It is, in fact, the Christian religion
which almost all atheists see as the obstacle to their idea of man and
his happiness." (Lepp, 12). In particular it is conservative
Protestantism and Catholicism which irritate atheists so badly.
Ironically, many atheists use many of the same time-worn arguments
that Fundamentalists use, such as pointing out every evil, real or
imagine, committed by a Catholic. This includes the obligatory
reference to "millions and millions" of people killed during the
Inquisitions, Crusades and assorted witch hunts. And where is the
scientific, historical evidence for these ludicrous claims? The
atheist, according to his own criteria, needs to scientifically prove
such allegations, but he cannot - such numbers are false.
Whatever the numbers are, they are too many, and they continue rising.=20
If it wasnt for the fact that religion, and in the US, it's the=20
christian one, is shoved down our throats by believers, nobody would=20
give a ***** what you believe...
=20
The Bible is the butt of many jokes and jabs by atheists. Kevin
continually referred to the ancient Hebrews as "primitive desert
tribesman" in his correspondence with me. His remarks are full of
modern condescension towards ancient cultures and beliefs: "It seems
clear this teaching [Catholic doctrine] is nothing more than a
primitive human invention. Fairy tales, legends and myths. From
internally inconsistent, historically undocumentable writings by
primitive desert dwellers 2000 [sic] years ago. Writings that
legitimize slavery, the burning of "witches," treating mental illness
by exorcism, mass murder, rape, prostitution, castration, incest, and
torture or death as the just punishment for the act of questioning
church doctrine. Is it any wonder that more and more people are trying
to come up with a new set of values and myths to base their lives on?"
By Geoarge, he's got it!
=20
Christianity in general, and the Catholic Church in particular, is
denounced by atheists for the justification of "war, slavery, sexism,
racism, homophobia, mutilations, intolerance, and oppression of
minorities. The totalitarianism of religious absolutes chokes
progress." (Freedom From Religion Foundation, Inc., Nontract #11). But
isn't it odd that the biggest wars, the largest episodes of genocide
and the great ethnic discriminations of all time took place in this
century in atheistic, anti-Christian countries? The Catholic apologist
shouldn't fail to ask the atheist why more people died under atheistic
governments in this century alone than all previous history combined.
The number of deaths which Christians have been responsible for down
through the centuries can't even compare to a couple of years' work by
Stalin or Mao Tse-Tung. Tens of millions of murders took place under
atheistic Communist regimes since 1918. Where is the outcry by
atheists? Why are they so silent?
They're silent due to the fact that these regimes didn't kill people due=20
to religion, they killed on an equal opportunity basis. Anyone who=20
Stalin thought was a threat, was dealt with. He didn't say "Is he a=20
christian/jew/xxx, he just had them killed. Same with Mao. They may have=20
been atheists, but that isn't the reason they killed all those people.
=20
The Mystery (and Convenience) of Disbelief
=20
"I don't have the evidence to prove that God doesn't exist, but I so
strongly suspect that he doesn't that I don't want to waste my time."
Isaac Asimov, sci-fi writer, now with plenty of time to waste in
eternity
=20
Just as there are many forms of atheism, there are numerous reasons
given for being an atheist. Not surprisingly, many atheists claim that
logic and clear thinking have led them to their disbelief in God. But
Lepp, an atheist for most of his young adult years and also a
psychotherapist, doesn't agree: "When an atheist is interrogated on
his motives, he almost always makes much of the absurd state of
religious dogmas, of how impossible it is as a rational being to
subscribe to them. As a matter of fact, most atheists pretend to be
rationalists. They criticize religion from the point of view of
history or of the natural sciences. . . But in fact there are few
atheists, especially among educated men, who ar so for rigorously
rational motives." (Lepp, 14).
=20
The Second Vatican Council taught that people become atheists due to a
"variety of causes, including a critical reaction against religious
beliefs, and in some places against the Christian religion in
particular" (GS 19). That seems obvious, but the next sentence is
crucial: "Hence believers can have more than a little to do with the
birth of atheism. To the extent that they neglect their own training
in the faith, or teach erroneous doctrine, or are deficient in their
religious, moral or social life, they must be said to conceal rather
than reveal the authentic face of God and religion" (GS 19). Atheist
literature, websites and arguments reflect this fact loudly and
clearly. Atheists take special issue with Catholicism because they see
it as detached, ultra-authoritarian and out of touch with the modern
world. Not surprisingly, most atheists demonstrate a faulty
understanding of most Church teaching and a sharp cynicism about the
perceived hypocrisy of most (if not all) Catholics. While some of
these perceptions are rooted in unfair bias and dislike, the failure
of Catholics to adequately explain and live their Faith is also to
blame. Thus the Council Fathers write that "The remedy which must be
applied to atheism, however, is to be sought in a proper presentation
of the Church's teaching as well as in the integral life of the Church
and her members" (GS 21). Intelligent and tempered apologetic and
evangelistic efforts are obviously a necessary part of this remedy.
=20
Would You Like A Copy of the Summa? Latin or English?
=20
"It is important to realize . . . that the apologist does not merely
proclaim the Faith (like a good evangelist or a bad dogmatist); he is
under no illusions about the role he plays, for he knows that the
Faith is full of mysteries which cannot be completely =91proved' and
that to give this Faith to anyone is far above his capability . . ." -
Dr. Jeffrey A. Mirus, "Apologetics: Forgotten Science, Lost Art"
=20
Atheism is a difficult and serious challenge to the Catholic
apologist. My personal experience, as a former Evangelical Christian,
is that I am more comfortable talking to a Protestant than to an
atheist. After talking with an atheist you realize how much we really
do hold in common with other Christians, even anti-Catholic
Fundamentalists. Atheism requires the apologist to have at least a
cursory knowledge of philosophy and science; it also means putting in
some time understanding the various forms and types of atheistic
thought.
Well, thinking might be a good idea! LOL.
=20
It is helpful to be familiar with some of the classic arguments for
the existence of God, including St. Anselm's ontological argument and
St. Thomas's famous five proofs (Summa Theologica, I, qq. 2), four of
which are different versions of the first-cause argument. The fifth is
the argument from design, which Catholic apologist Frank Sheed thought
was the most useful in his street corner talks. Others include the
argument from conscience, which asks the atheist why it is that
everyone seems to have a sense of what is good and evil. C.S. Lewis
summed it up in two points: "First, that human beings, all over the
earth, have this curious idea that they ought to behave in a certain
way, and cannot really get rid of it. Secondly, that they do not in
fact behave in that way. They know the Law of Nature; they break it.
These two facts are the foundation of all clear thinking about
ourselves and the universe we live in." (C. S. Lewis, Mere
Christianity [London: Collins, 1961] 19).
Believers are in prisons everywhere, in much greater percentages then=20
atheists....hmmmm.
=20
Another argument is Blaise Pascal's famous Wager. Pascal, a brilliant
mathematician and apologist, essentially said that if the atheist is
right, then both he and the Christian will die and that will be it.
But if the Christian is right, the atheist has everything to lose and
the Christian everything to gain. So the Christian is more logical in
believing in God since it places him in the best position once he
dies. Many atheists will admit the logic of the argument, but then
will ask, "But which god? Why yours?" You then need to show the
uniqueness of Jesus Christ and the religion he founded. Two excellent
books which summarize these arguments (and much more) are Fundamentals
of the Faith by Peter Kreeft and Handbook of Christian Apologetics by
Kreeft and Fr. Ronald Tacelli.
Nah, that's not gonna work. Jesus, in my opinion, sounds like a cranked=20
up, "amplified" story. Probably never existed, and the story really=20
makes no sense anyway.
=20
While the apologist can offer good proofs for the existence of God, he
cannot prove the existence of the Triune God of revelation by means of
logic alone. He can only go so far with logic and arguments, since
grace and revelation is beyond mere human logic. Regarding Aquinas and
the proofs for God, Dr. Ralph McInerny writes that "The distinction
between nature and grace, between the natural use of human reason and
reasoning which is aided by grace and revelation, makes it clear that
while Thomas holds that theism is natural and relatively easily
attained, he does not regard this as making the further step into
Christian belief as a continuation of the same sort of thinking." (Dr.
Ralph McInerny, "Why The Burden of Proof Is On the Atheist" at
http://origins.org). In the end there must be an encounter with Jesus
Christ, as the Holy Father so beautifully expressed in his most recent
encyclical: "Reason cannot eliminate the mystery of love which the
Cross represents, while the Cross can give the reason the ultimate
answer which it seeks" (Fides et Ratio 23).
=20
Does He or Doesn't He?
=20
In the final letter Kevin wrote to me, he made an astounding
statement: "I never stated =91there is no God.' A supernatural being may
exist. I would submit, however, that YOUR God doesn't exist, since
your concept of God is internally self-contradictory . . ." In the end
this particular atheist didn't deny the existence of God, but rather
denied his own standards of logic and reason. For an atheist to claim
a "supernatural being" might be out there, but to then reject the
Christian God indicates a belief that is not rooted in rational
thinking, but in a spiritual crisis. Atheism is rooted in spiritual
blindness, which only the Holy Spirit can heal. Our job as apologists
and evangelists is to be in accord, through patience and prayer, with
the heart and mind of the Church, who "courteously invites atheists to
examine the Gospel of Christ with an open mind." (GS 21).
=20
=20
=20
http://www.carl-olson.com/articles/atheism_envoy.html
=20
I think Carl Olson needs to get a clue...
BDK
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| User: "Daniel Kolle" |
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| Title: Re: The Blind Faith of Atheism |
23 Aug 2004 08:29:02 PM |
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On 23 Aug 2004 05:22:59 -0700, (ohoe) thought hard and
said:
The Blind Faith of Atheism
by Carl E. Olson.
Envoy magazine. Volume 3.4. 1999.
"The first requisite for the happiness of the people is the abolition
of religion" - Karl Marx, still unhappy
Marx was a fool. Communism is not atheism, by the way. But you knew
that all ready, right, troll?
--
-Daniel "Mr. Brevity" Kolle; 16 A.A. #2035
Koji Kondo, Yo-Yo Ma, Gustav Mahler, Krzysztof Penderecki, and Geirr Tveitt are my Gods.
Head of EAC Denial Department and Madly Insane Scientist.
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| User: "Alan Wostenberg" |
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| Title: Re: The Blind Faith of Atheism |
26 Aug 2004 08:51:32 AM |
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Daniel Kolle wrote:
On 23 Aug 2004 05:22:59 -0700, (ohoe) thought hard and
said:
The Blind Faith of Atheism
by Carl E. Olson.
Envoy magazine. Volume 3.4. 1999.
"The first requisite for the happiness of the people is the abolition
of religion" - Karl Marx, still unhappy
Marx was a fool. Communism is not atheism, by the way.
It's not identical with atheism, but the abolition of private property
follows from atheism. For if the world was not first our Creator's
property, by what right can a person claim some hunk of land is his?
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| User: "ChuckPFb" |
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| Title: Re: The Blind Faith of Atheism |
27 Aug 2004 04:59:25 AM |
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"Alan Wostenberg" <awostenbergNospam@psalmweaver.com> wrote in message
It's not identical with atheism, but the abolition of private property
follows from atheism.
All the atheists I know are highly protective of their private property rights.
For if the world was not first our Creator's
property, by what right can a person claim some hunk of land is his?
It's quite easy. If you own the deed to a piece of land, the folks at the
court house will protect your right to claim the land. They don't need
any official permission from the great sky pixie to do this.
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| User: "Tukla Ratte" |
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| Title: Re: The Blind Faith of Atheism |
27 Aug 2004 12:21:58 PM |
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ChuckPFb wrote:
"Alan Wostenberg" <awostenbergNospam@psalmweaver.com> wrote in message
It's not identical with atheism, but the abolition of private property
follows from atheism.
All the atheists I know are highly protective of their private property rights.
Yes. My shinies. MINE!!
For if the world was not first our Creator's
property, by what right can a person claim some hunk of land is his?
It's quite easy. If you own the deed to a piece of land, the folks at the
court house will protect your right to claim the land. They don't need
any official permission from the great sky pixie to do this.
Right. Owning a piece of land is just a way to keep other people from
forcing you to move all the time. And the money you pay helps fund
law-enforcement agencies to assist in that effort.
--
Tukla, Eater of Theists, Squeaker of Chew Toys
Official Mascot of Alt.Atheism
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| User: "Fred Stone" |
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| Title: Re: The Blind Faith of Atheism |
26 Aug 2004 06:40:44 PM |
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Alan Wostenberg <awostenbergNospam@psalmweaver.com> wrote in
news:412DEAE4.3030507@psalmweaver.com:
Daniel Kolle wrote:
On 23 Aug 2004 05:22:59 -0700, (ohoe) thought hard
and
said:
The Blind Faith of Atheism
by Carl E. Olson.
Envoy magazine. Volume 3.4. 1999.
"The first requisite for the happiness of the people is the abolition
of religion" - Karl Marx, still unhappy
Marx was a fool. Communism is not atheism, by the way.
It's not identical with atheism, but the abolition of private property
follows from atheism. For if the world was not first our Creator's
property, by what right can a person claim some hunk of land is his?
By right of legal title, enforced by the sheriff, if it comes to that.
--
Fred Stone
aa# 1369
Cthulhu for President! Why vote for a lesser evil?
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| User: "Thomas P." |
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| Title: Re: The Blind Faith of Atheism |
27 Aug 2004 08:34:23 AM |
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Alan Wostenberg <awostenbergNospam@psalmweaver.com> wrote in message news:<412DEAE4.3030507@psalmweaver.com>...
Daniel Kolle wrote:
On 23 Aug 2004 05:22:59 -0700, (ohoe) thought hard and
said:
The Blind Faith of Atheism
by Carl E. Olson.
Envoy magazine. Volume 3.4. 1999.
"The first requisite for the happiness of the people is the abolition
of religion" - Karl Marx, still unhappy
Marx was a fool. Communism is not atheism, by the way.
It's not identical with atheism, but the abolition of private property
follows from atheism. For if the world was not first our Creator's
property, by what right can a person claim some hunk of land is his?
Private property is an invention of societies. There is no reason
that a creator would be a necessary prerequisite.
Thomas P.
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| User: "wbarwell" |
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| Title: Re: The Blind Faith of Atheism |
26 Aug 2004 07:40:15 PM |
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Alan Wostenberg wrote:
Daniel Kolle wrote:
On 23 Aug 2004 05:22:59 -0700, (ohoe) thought hard and
said:
The Blind Faith of Atheism
by Carl E. Olson.
Envoy magazine. Volume 3.4. 1999.
"The first requisite for the happiness of the people is the abolition
of religion" - Karl Marx, still unhappy
Marx was a fool. Communism is not atheism, by the way.
It's not identical with atheism, but the abolition of private property
follows from atheism.
What amazing ignorance. Communism is a command from god according
to the Bible. Read Acts 4:31-7 and Acts 2. These verses were the basis of
communistic religous sects such as the Owenites and others that became
the theoretical economic basis of socialism and communism in the evil days
of the industrail revolution with its capitalistsic horrors. Communism is
directly sprung from the Bible, acts 2 and 4 in particular.
Sell all you have and give to the poor. Jesus proclaimed this numerous
times. Nor was early Christianity the only such case, the Essenes and
other communities lived in communistic religous communities and
the Greek Pythagoreans tried to establish a communist system in
Southern Italy and were slaughtered by their neighbors long before Christ.
Early Buddhism estblished numerous communist monastaries. Communism
and religion have long walked hand in hand.
You are so amazingly ignorant, so amazingly ignorant indeed.
Totally ignorant.
For if the world was not first our Creator's
property, by what right can a person claim some hunk of land is his?
--
Senator Waxman's searchable database of iraq war lies.
www.house.gov/reform/min/features/iraq_on_the_record/
A good portal to more lies and Bush stupidity is to be found at
www.failureisimpossible.com - Go to the index and go to
"L" for lies. All you need to know about Bush when you
step into the voting booth. Bush is a liar and surrounds
himself with fellow liars.
Cheerful Charlie
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| User: "Daniel Kolle" |
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| Title: Re: The Blind Faith of Atheism |
26 Aug 2004 06:16:54 PM |
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On Thu, 26 Aug 2004 08:51:32 -0500, Alan Wostenberg
<awostenbergNospam@psalmweaver.com> thought hard and said:
Daniel Kolle wrote:
On 23 Aug 2004 05:22:59 -0700, (ohoe) thought hard and
said:
The Blind Faith of Atheism
by Carl E. Olson.
Envoy magazine. Volume 3.4. 1999.
"The first requisite for the happiness of the people is the abolition
of religion" - Karl Marx, still unhappy
Marx was a fool. Communism is not atheism, by the way.
It's not identical with atheism, but the abolition of private property
follows from atheism. For if the world was not first our Creator's
property, by what right can a person claim some hunk of land is his?
Because I paid for it. Or, to be specific in my case, my grandfather
paid for it.
--
-Daniel "Mr. Brevity" Kolle; 16 A.A. #2035
Koji Kondo, Yo-Yo Ma, Gustav Mahler, Krzysztof Penderecki, and Geirr Tveitt are my Gods.
Head of EAC Denial Department and Madly Insane Scientist.
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| User: "Mike Painter" |
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| Title: Re: The Blind Faith of Atheism |
26 Aug 2004 08:21:22 PM |
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It's not identical with atheism, but the abolition of private
property follows from atheism. For if the world was not first our
Creator's property, by what right can a person claim some hunk of
land is his?
That's a brillant paragraph.
The atheist is the person that abolished private property (who knew, I
thought I still owned mine) and this would seem to side with the creator
owning all of it.
So the atheist is on the side of god and the christian isn't in this case?
When good old JC said seel all you own he excluded property.
One of the things that irks me about most fundamental christian men is the
fact that they speak of "My wife" in exactly the same way they speak of "my
pickup", "my (trailer) house", "my Property", etc.
Ownership.
Granted their should be a way to express "my" as either a sign of owner ship
or identification. I don't even think I own my dogs.
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