The camel and the eye of the needle

Religions > Atheism > The camel and the eye of the needle

LINK TO THIS PAGE

rating : 0 | 0

Page 1 of 3

Topic:	Religions > Atheism
User:	"Steve O"
Date:	28 Aug 2005 07:33:14 PM
Object:	The camel and the eye of the needle

"It is easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle than it is for
a rich man to enter the Kingdom of Heaven" claims the bible.
Well, the bible is wrong.
All you need is a very large blender and a pipette.
A dromedary camel weighs around 450 - 650 kilograms.
This consists of about 80 kilograms of bone, and 470 kilograms of flesh.
The flesh has an average density of about 1.03 kilograms per litre, and bone
about 1.85 kilograms per litre.
If you blend and blend a camel down to liquid, with no waste or spillage,
you will be left with around 500 litres of blended camel.
So how big is the eye of the needle?
It depends on the size of the needle.
The dimensions of a modern sewing needle are 1 millimeter long, 0.3
millimetres wide, 0.5 millimetres deep, with a total volume of 0.15 cubic
millimetres.
Having blended our camel, it must be pipetted through the eye of our needle.
It would take 3,333,333,333 individual doses to pipette it through a needle
with that volume.
This would be a pretty tedious job, but we could automate it with an
automated pipettting machine that can deliver each dose at a rate of , say,
once every 15 seconds.
It would only take 5 billion seconds to pipette the whole camel through the
needle!
Unfortunately, that would take around 158 years and 161 days.
This would mean that no rich man who's died since 1847 (which includes
Rockerfeller, Vanderbilt, Astor and Carnegie) has been able to enter
paradise yet.
If it is indeed a place with a bevy of 72 virgins waiting, they must be
pretty bored by now.
But fear not - you don't have to throw in the towel yet and start
worshipping God or throwing all your hard earned cash away!.
Here are the dimensions of another needle I just found in my sewing box.
5mm x0.7mm x0.5mm (1.75 cubic millimeteres.)
Pipetting our camel through this needle would only take about 13.6 years -
equivalent to the time since 1992!For the chance of an eternity in paradise
surely this wouldn't seem long at all?
I've scoured the bible for any reference as to how long it would actually
take a rich man to enter the Kingdom of Heaven given the opportunity but
couldn't find any.
But at least we now know that the maximum waiting time is around the average
age of Michael Jackson's preferred sexual partner.
Hang in there Mr Gates!
You'll be OK!!
--
Steve O
Atheist list #2240
"Some people are like Slinkies...
Not really good for anything, but
they still bring a smile to your face
when you push them down a flight of stairs"
~anon~
.

User: "Steve"
Title: Re: The camel and the eye of the needle	29 Aug 2005 12:45:03 AM

"Steve O" <stoboyle@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:3nehtbF155b2U1@individual.net...

"It is easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle than it is

for

a rich man to enter the Kingdom of Heaven" claims the bible.
Well, the bible is wrong.
All you need is a very large blender and a pipette.

A dromedary camel weighs around 450 - 650 kilograms.
This consists of about 80 kilograms of bone, and 470 kilograms of flesh.
The flesh has an average density of about 1.03 kilograms per litre, and

bone

about 1.85 kilograms per litre.

If you blend and blend a camel down to liquid, with no waste or spillage,
you will be left with around 500 litres of blended camel.
So how big is the eye of the needle?
It depends on the size of the needle.
The dimensions of a modern sewing needle are 1 millimeter long, 0.3
millimetres wide, 0.5 millimetres deep, with a total volume of 0.15 cubic
millimetres.
Having blended our camel, it must be pipetted through the eye of our

needle.

It would take 3,333,333,333 individual doses to pipette it through a

needle

with that volume.
This would be a pretty tedious job, but we could automate it with an
automated pipettting machine that can deliver each dose at a rate of ,

say,

once every 15 seconds.
It would only take 5 billion seconds to pipette the whole camel through

the

needle!
Unfortunately, that would take around 158 years and 161 days.
This would mean that no rich man who's died since 1847 (which includes
Rockerfeller, Vanderbilt, Astor and Carnegie) has been able to enter
paradise yet.
If it is indeed a place with a bevy of 72 virgins waiting, they must be
pretty bored by now.
But fear not - you don't have to throw in the towel yet and start
worshipping God or throwing all your hard earned cash away!.
Here are the dimensions of another needle I just found in my sewing box.
5mm x0.7mm x0.5mm (1.75 cubic millimeteres.)
Pipetting our camel through this needle would only take about 13.6 years -
equivalent to the time since 1992!For the chance of an eternity in

paradise

surely this wouldn't seem long at all?
I've scoured the bible for any reference as to how long it would actually
take a rich man to enter the Kingdom of Heaven given the opportunity but
couldn't find any.
But at least we now know that the maximum waiting time is around the

average

age of Michael Jackson's preferred sexual partner.
Hang in there Mr Gates!
You'll be OK!!

Just to add a little bit more to the whole interpretation thing ...
In aramaic camel is gomlah and rope is gamlah so i think its another case of
gawd allowing his word to get screwed around (so much for knowing
*everything* - you think he would keep an eye on *his* word wudnt u)
So it makes a lot more sense that it is easy for a rope to pass thru the eye
of a needle than the whole camel thing - even if pureed to perfection!
Steve

--
Steve O
Atheist list #2240
"Some people are like Slinkies...
Not really good for anything, but
they still bring a smile to your face
when you push them down a flight of stairs"
~anon~

----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet News==----
http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 120,000+ Newsgroups
----= East and West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption =----
.

User: "Steve O"
Title: Re: The camel and the eye of the needle	29 Aug 2005 05:05:28 AM

"Steve" <dontbother@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1125276472_1511@spool6-east.superfeed.net...

"Steve O" <stoboyle@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:3nehtbF155b2U1@individual.net...

"It is easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle than it is

for

bone

needle.

It would take 3,333,333,333 individual doses to pipette it through a

needle

with that volume.
This would be a pretty tedious job, but we could automate it with an
automated pipettting machine that can deliver each dose at a rate of ,

say,

once every 15 seconds.
It would only take 5 billion seconds to pipette the whole camel through

the

needle!
Unfortunately, that would take around 158 years and 161 days.
This would mean that no rich man who's died since 1847 (which includes
Rockerfeller, Vanderbilt, Astor and Carnegie) has been able to enter
paradise yet.
If it is indeed a place with a bevy of 72 virgins waiting, they must be
pretty bored by now.
But fear not - you don't have to throw in the towel yet and start
worshipping God or throwing all your hard earned cash away!.
Here are the dimensions of another needle I just found in my sewing box.
5mm x0.7mm x0.5mm (1.75 cubic millimeteres.)
Pipetting our camel through this needle would only take about 13.6
years -
equivalent to the time since 1992!For the chance of an eternity in

paradise

average

age of Michael Jackson's preferred sexual partner.
Hang in there Mr Gates!
You'll be OK!!

Just to add a little bit more to the whole interpretation thing ...

In aramaic camel is gomlah and rope is gamlah so i think its another case
of
gawd allowing his word to get screwed around (so much for knowing
*everything* - you think he would keep an eye on *his* word wudnt u)

So it makes a lot more sense that it is easy for a rope to pass thru the
eye
of a needle than the whole camel thing - even if pureed to perfection!

Steve

Seems reasonable, but what about that whole other thing with the eye of the
needle being the narrow night gates into the city?
That really messes up my calculations, and your suggested translation.
Ohhh!
This bible thingy is sooooooooo confusing!.
--
Steve O
Atheist list #2240
"Some people are like Slinkies...
Not really good for anything, but
they still bring a smile to your face
when you push them down a flight of stairs"
~anon~
.

User: "Darrell Stec"
Title: Re: The camel and the eye of the needle	29 Aug 2005 11:01:33 PM

After serious contemplation, on or about Sunday 28 August 2005 8:45 pm
dontbother@hotmail.com wrote:

"Steve O" <stoboyle@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:3nehtbF155b2U1@individual.net...

"It is easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle than it is

for

bone

needle.

It would take 3,333,333,333 individual doses to pipette it through a

needle

with that volume.
This would be a pretty tedious job, but we could automate it with an
automated pipettting machine that can deliver each dose at a rate of ,

say,

once every 15 seconds.
It would only take 5 billion seconds to pipette the whole camel through

the

needle!
Unfortunately, that would take around 158 years and 161 days.
This would mean that no rich man who's died since 1847 (which includes
Rockerfeller, Vanderbilt, Astor and Carnegie) has been able to enter
paradise yet.
If it is indeed a place with a bevy of 72 virgins waiting, they must be
pretty bored by now.
But fear not - you don't have to throw in the towel yet and start
worshipping God or throwing all your hard earned cash away!.
Here are the dimensions of another needle I just found in my sewing box.
5mm x0.7mm x0.5mm (1.75 cubic millimeteres.)
Pipetting our camel through this needle would only take about 13.6 years
- equivalent to the time since 1992!For the chance of an eternity in

paradise

average

age of Michael Jackson's preferred sexual partner.
Hang in there Mr Gates!
You'll be OK!!

Just to add a little bit more to the whole interpretation thing ...

In aramaic camel is gomlah and rope is gamlah so i think its another case
of gawd allowing his word to get screwed around (so much for knowing
*everything* - you think he would keep an eye on *his* word wudnt u)

So it makes a lot more sense that it is easy for a rope to pass thru the
eye of a needle than the whole camel thing - even if pureed to perfection!

Steve

But how does one know which was meant? Adding vowels to Aramaic writing was
as in that of Hebrew a rather late development. Any text if were written
in Aramaic would have no indication of vowel sounds, at least not in the
first or second century CE. But then that is besides the point. The
gospels were written in Greek. There is no evidence of Aramaic precedence
for the gospels.
The word used in Greek is kamelon (from kamelos) which means camel. Almost
every manuscript except for the late editions minuscules 579 and 1424 use
kamelon. Those two minuscules use kamilon which does mean rope or ship's
cable but only in Matthew 19:24, not in the other two synoptics which uses
the standard kamelon. Incidentally, the two words eventually became
pronounced exactly alike, hence the later minuscules confusion. So it is
rather safe to say that the authors of the synoptics understood their
character, Jesus, to be referring to an animal.
"the eye of the needle" is slightly more problematic as the texts vary
widely with this phrase. The first note is that only the Alexandrian Texts
use the article "the" for both words. Some variants use "an eye of a
needle", some "the eye of a needle", others "an eye of the needle". Each
of these phrases can have a different meaning. The question though is
whether the various readings support a gate, the passage in the desert, or
a sewing needle.
Matthew and Mark use the word rhaphos meaning needle from the root rhapho
meaning to sew or join together (as in stitching). Luke uses the word
belones which is a surgical needle. That makes a lot of sense considering
there is evidence the writer of GLuke is a woman who writes from a
viewpoint of a woman and indeed places the women in the gospel higher than
the men, and who would know about the needle used in caesarian births.
Both words however are closely related to sewing and not gates nor
passageways.
Matthew and Luke use tramatos for eye from the root meaning hole. Mark uses
the word trumalias for eye from the root truo meaning worn away or rut.
This certainly complicates things. It could refer in Mark to a passageway
cut between two adjoining mountains/dunes. But certainly Matthew and Luke
did not see it that way. Considering Mark's poor grasp of the geography of
the area, Occam's Razor would say Mark didn't know about the passageway and
meant the eye of the needle as in a hole in the sewing tool.

--
Steve O
Atheist list #2240
"Some people are like Slinkies...
Not really good for anything, but
they still bring a smile to your face
when you push them down a flight of stairs"
~anon~

----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet
News==---- http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World!
120,000+ Newsgroups ----= East and West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy
via Encryption =----

--
Later,
Darrell Stec

Webpage Sorcery
http://webpagesorcery.com
We Put the Magic in Your Webpages
.

User: "Michael Gray"
Title: Re: The camel and the eye of the needle	30 Aug 2005 04:07:51 AM

On Mon, 29 Aug 2005 10:45:03 +1000, "Steve" <dontbother@hotmail.com>
wrote:
:

In aramaic camel is gomlah and rope is gamlah...

:
What are your sources for these claims?
.

User: "Darrell Stec"
Title: Re: The camel and the eye of the needle	30 Aug 2005 05:44:17 AM

After serious contemplation, on or about Tuesday 30 August 2005 12:07 am
fleetg@newsguy.spam.com wrote:

On Mon, 29 Aug 2005 10:45:03 +1000, "Steve" <dontbother@hotmail.com>
wrote:

:

In aramaic camel is gomlah and rope is gamlah...

:

What are your sources for these claims?

He is in fact correct. The problem though with his line of thought was that
written Aramaic couldn't distinguish between gomlah and gamlah during the
first and second centuries CE because vowels were not represented. It was
the same as Hebrew in that respect.
And since all evidence points to the Aramaic NT being much later than the
Greek it makes no difference anyway. In Greek the word is camel, however
the Greek words for camel and rope began to sound the same by the fifth
century when the scribes assistants would have been dictating the Greek for
translation into the Aramaic.
--
Later,
Darrell Stec

Webpage Sorcery
http://webpagesorcery.com
We Put the Magic in Your Webpages
.

User: "Michael Gray"
Title: Re: The camel and the eye of the needle	30 Aug 2005 07:24:46 AM

On Tue, 30 Aug 2005 01:44:17 -0400, Darrell Stec
<darrell_stec@webpagesorcery.com> wrote:

After serious contemplation, on or about Tuesday 30 August 2005 12:07 am
fleetg@newsguy.spam.com wrote:

On Mon, 29 Aug 2005 10:45:03 +1000, "Steve" <dontbother@hotmail.com>
wrote:

:

In aramaic camel is gomlah and rope is gamlah...

:

What are your sources for these claims?

He is in fact correct. The problem though with his line of thought was that
written Aramaic couldn't distinguish between gomlah and gamlah during the
first and second centuries CE because vowels were not represented. It was
the same as Hebrew in that respect.

And since all evidence points to the Aramaic NT being much later than the
Greek it makes no difference anyway. In Greek the word is camel, however
the Greek words for camel and rope began to sound the same by the fifth
century when the scribes assistants would have been dictating the Greek for
translation into the Aramaic.

I agree with most of what you say, I merely want to know what his
sources were, as I was suspicious of the spurious inclusion of vowels,
as well as what I assume to be a mis-spelling.
If I remember my rather scratchy Aramaic though, the word for camel
is spelled simply (gimel)(mem)(lamed) or GML.
The Hebrew for "camel" is spelled with a qames (ka-mets) under both
the gimel and the mem**, so that would mean the vowels that Steve
wrote don't match what I expected they should be anyway, for Aramaic
with pronunciation marks.
(Vis: GAMAL)
It's bloody difficult with only ASCII!
On another topic, do you have the ISBN of a good Aramaic
Dictionary/Vocabulary?
Which one do you use?
The one that I have is fairly good, but quite restricted, and all I
could source.
Michael.
** The rule as I remember it is:
When kemets, (not accompanied by an accent), is followed immediately
by a letter doubled by Deghash, or by Sh'va, or Mak-keph it is "o",
otherwise "a", with a few irregular exceptions.
Makes English spelling rules seem not so bad, eh?
"i" after "e", except on Tuesdays.
But this rule would make the vowelled "gamlah" look *quite* different
from "gomlah", as it would surely have to be followed by a Kholem,
dropping the kamets, and further confuse the confusion?
.

User: "Darrell Stec"
Title: Re: The camel and the eye of the needle	30 Aug 2005 10:11:22 AM

After serious contemplation, on or about Tuesday 30 August 2005 3:24 am
fleetg@newsguy.spam.com wrote:

On Tue, 30 Aug 2005 01:44:17 -0400, Darrell Stec
<darrell_stec@webpagesorcery.com> wrote:

After serious contemplation, on or about Tuesday 30 August 2005 12:07 am
fleetg@newsguy.spam.com wrote:

On Mon, 29 Aug 2005 10:45:03 +1000, "Steve" <dontbother@hotmail.com>
wrote:

:

In aramaic camel is gomlah and rope is gamlah...

:

What are your sources for these claims?

He is in fact correct. The problem though with his line of thought was
that written Aramaic couldn't distinguish between gomlah and gamlah during
the
first and second centuries CE because vowels were not represented. It was
the same as Hebrew in that respect.

And since all evidence points to the Aramaic NT being much later than the
Greek it makes no difference anyway. In Greek the word is camel, however
the Greek words for camel and rope began to sound the same by the fifth
century when the scribes assistants would have been dictating the Greek
for translation into the Aramaic.

That would be correct. But I do not think there are any early examples of
NT Aramaic. If I am not mistaken, the only complete copies are from the
tenth century CE. The earliest fragments date from the sixth century CE,
by which time the Masoretic Texts were being written with vowel markings
for the Hebrew. Modern rendering for camel would be JOOMLAA so I can see
some sense to the transliteration of Gamal with a majleeaanaa under it to
form a Jamal (j sound); meem; followed by lamadh with the final Allap (AH)
acquiring an aspiration on newsgroups.
I haven't actually found a word for rope in Aramaic that looks anything like
that for camel, although the same word for camel can be translated as beam.
Since I've seen the reference quoted so many times, I just took it for
granted that it was correct. I think what came into play here is some form
of transliteration of the Greek into something that sounded like something
in Aramaic.
Much of the problem is compounded by all the sources which give modern
pronunciations of the words, or various and different transliterations, or
the different styles of writing.

The Hebrew for "camel" is spelled with a qames (ka-mets) under both
the gimel and the mem**, so that would mean the vowels that Steve
wrote don't match what I expected they should be anyway, for Aramaic
with pronunciation marks.
(Vis: GAMAL)
It's bloody difficult with only ASCII!

Transliteration can be hell when trying to be specific.

On another topic, do you have the ISBN of a good Aramaic
Dictionary/Vocabulary?
Which one do you use?
The one that I have is fairly good, but quite restricted, and all I
could source.

Michael.

No I don't. For the little I use Aramaic, I use various online sources. It
was just that the particular passage came up time and again during the last
40 years when I could discuss it seriously without having to depend upon
the English translation, and the camel bit stuck with me. I too believed
the gate-needle explanation at one time as it made sense. However, I
couldn't find much in the way of Greek literature that bore the explanation
out. Then as I learned more about Mark's gospel (or rather the gospel
attributed to Mark) I learned to appreciate the brilliance of the writer.
He modeled his Jesus after the Cynic philosopher with a little of the Stoic
thrown in for good measure. But he used Homeric poetry and epic blended
with the Septuagint Old Testament and the Hebrew formula of chiasm.
Hyperbole would be something worthy of remembering, and therefore the
ludicrousness of the camel going through a sewing needle seems apt.

** The rule as I remember it is:
When kemets, (not accompanied by an accent), is followed immediately
by a letter doubled by Deghash, or by Sh'va, or Mak-keph it is "o",
otherwise "a", with a few irregular exceptions.
Makes English spelling rules seem not so bad, eh?
"i" after "e", except on Tuesdays.

But this rule would make the vowelled "gamlah" look *quite* different
from "gomlah", as it would surely have to be followed by a Kholem,
dropping the kamets, and further confuse the confusion?

--
Later,
Darrell Stec

Webpage Sorcery
http://webpagesorcery.com
We Put the Magic in Your Webpages
.

User: "Michael Gray"
Title: Re: The camel and the eye of the needle	01 Sep 2005 05:14:54 AM

On Tue, 30 Aug 2005 06:11:22 -0400, Darrell Stec
<darrell_stec@webpagesorcery.com> wrote:
:

out. Then as I learned more about Mark's gospel (or rather the gospel
attributed to Mark) I learned to appreciate the brilliance of the writer.
He modeled his Jesus after the Cynic philosopher with a little of the Stoic
thrown in for good measure. But he used Homeric poetry and epic blended
with the Septuagint Old Testament and the Hebrew formula of chiasm.
Hyperbole would be something worthy of remembering, and therefore the
ludicrousness of the camel going through a sewing needle seems apt.

:
I just re-read Mark (in the Greek), to see what you were referring to,
and do you know who I think most influenced him?
Read it yourself, and tell me that you can't hear... YODA!
Eg:
4:41 Why fearful are you so? How not have you faith?
or
7:18 ... Thus also discerning you are?
(You've gotta read it in Greek though.)
.

User: "Darrell Stec"
Title: Re: The camel and the eye of the needle	01 Sep 2005 06:46:03 AM

After serious contemplation, on or about Thursday 01 September 2005 1:14 am
fleetg@newsguy.spam.com wrote:

On Tue, 30 Aug 2005 06:11:22 -0400, Darrell Stec
<darrell_stec@webpagesorcery.com> wrote:

:

out. Then as I learned more about Mark's gospel (or rather the gospel
attributed to Mark) I learned to appreciate the brilliance of the writer.
He modeled his Jesus after the Cynic philosopher with a little of the
Stoic
thrown in for good measure. But he used Homeric poetry and epic blended
with the Septuagint Old Testament and the Hebrew formula of chiasm.
Hyperbole would be something worthy of remembering, and therefore the
ludicrousness of the camel going through a sewing needle seems apt.

:

I just re-read Mark (in the Greek), to see what you were referring to,
and do you know who I think most influenced him?

Read it yourself, and tell me that you can't hear... YODA!

Eg:
4:41 Why fearful are you so? How not have you faith?
or
7:18 ... Thus also discerning you are?

(You've gotta read it in Greek though.)

I thought all foreigners wrote that way. :-)
--
Later,
Darrell Stec

Webpage Sorcery
http://webpagesorcery.com
We Put the Magic in Your Webpages
.

User: "Michael Gray"
Title: Re: The camel and the eye of the needle	01 Sep 2005 08:38:30 AM

On Thu, 01 Sep 2005 02:46:03 -0400, Darrell Stec
<darrell_stec@webpagesorcery.com> wrote:

After serious contemplation, on or about Thursday 01 September 2005 1:14 am
fleetg@newsguy.spam.com wrote:

On Tue, 30 Aug 2005 06:11:22 -0400, Darrell Stec
<darrell_stec@webpagesorcery.com> wrote:

:

out. Then as I learned more about Mark's gospel (or rather the gospel
attributed to Mark) I learned to appreciate the brilliance of the writer.
He modeled his Jesus after the Cynic philosopher with a little of the
Stoic
thrown in for good measure. But he used Homeric poetry and epic blended
with the Septuagint Old Testament and the Hebrew formula of chiasm.
Hyperbole would be something worthy of remembering, and therefore the
ludicrousness of the camel going through a sewing needle seems apt.

:

I just re-read Mark (in the Greek), to see what you were referring to,
and do you know who I think most influenced him?

Read it yourself, and tell me that you can't hear... YODA!

Eg:
4:41 Why fearful are you so? How not have you faith?
or
7:18 ... Thus also discerning you are?

(You've gotta read it in Greek though.)

I thought all foreigners wrote that way. :-)

All of them that way writing, not are.
"Mark" Hamill, "Luke" Skywalker...
Yoda think coincidence not is.
.

User: "Witziges R�tsel"
Title: Re: The camel and the eye of the needle	28 Aug 2005 08:53:00 PM

<snip procedure>
Oh, that kind of camel! I always thought they meant the cigarettes.
.

User: "Josef Balluch"
Title: Re: The camel and the eye of the needle	28 Aug 2005 08:29:36 PM

In a message sent 'round the world, Steve O poured fuel on the fire with
the following:

....
We should be able to simplify this problem quite a bit. According to
Christian bumph, life begins at conception. Thus a camel's zygote, or
fertilized ovum, is an actual camel. It should be no great task to pass
such an ovum through the eye of a sewing needle. Shouldn't take but a
few seconds.
Regards,
Josef
A problem is never as permanent as a solution.
-- Harvey Fierstein
.

User: "Pat OBeur"
Title: Re: The camel and the eye of the needle	28 Aug 2005 09:20:13 PM

On Sun, 28 Aug 2005 16:29:36 -0400, Josef Balluch wrote:

We should be able to simplify this problem quite a bit. According to
Christian bumph, life begins at conception. Thus a camel's zygote, or
fertilized ovum, is an actual camel. It should be no great task to pass
such an ovum through the eye of a sewing needle. Shouldn't take but a
few seconds.
Regards,
Josef
A problem is never as permanent as a solution.

-- Harvey Fierstein

LOL good one. But how do you know it's a rich camel? ;)
--
"Political language is designed to make lies sound truthful
and murder respectable, and to give an appearance
of solidity to pure wind."
-George Orwell-
.

User: "Josef Balluch"
Title: Re: The camel and the eye of the needle	28 Aug 2005 09:48:04 PM

In a message sent 'round the world, Pat O'Beur poured fuel on the fire
with the following:
....

LOL good one. But how do you know it's a rich camel? ;)

http://www.reverendfun.com/index.php?date=19980810
.

User: "stoney"
Title: Re: The camel and the eye of the needle	05 Sep 2005 05:49:57 PM

On Sun, 28 Aug 2005 17:48:04 -0400, Josef Balluch
<josef.balluch@sympatico.can> wrote:

In a message sent 'round the world, Pat O'Beur poured fuel on the fire
with the following:

LOL good one. But how do you know it's a rich camel? ;)

http://www.reverendfun.com/index.php?date=19980810

Hehehehe
http://www.reverendfun.com/index.php?date=19980817
--
Contempt of Congress meter reading-offscale.
Hello, theocracy with a fundamentalist US Supreme
Court who will ensure church and state are joined
at the hip like clergy and altar boys.
America 1776-Jan 2001 RIP
"As democracy is perfected, the office of president
represents, more and more closely, the inner soul
of the people. On some great and glorious day the
plain folks of the land will reach their heart's
desire at last and the White House will be adorned
by a downright moron." --- H.L. Mencken (1880 - 1956)
Religion is the original war crime.
-Michelle Malkin (Feb 26, 2005)
.

User: "Pat OBeur"
Title: Re: The camel and the eye of the needle	29 Aug 2005 12:03:22 PM

On Sun, 28 Aug 2005 17:48:04 -0400, Josef Balluch wrote:

LOL good one. But how do you know it's a rich camel? ;)

http://www.reverendfun.com/index.php?date=19980810

Excellent! Humour and irony are clever people's best weapons.
Ridicule is fatal.
--
"Political language is designed to make lies sound truthful
and murder respectable, and to give an appearance
of solidity to pure wind."
-George Orwell-
.

User: "Brian E. Clark"
Title: Re: The camel and the eye of the needle	30 Aug 2005 12:45:47 AM

In article <pan.2005.08.28.21.20.04.857985@frogland.fr>, Pat
O'Beur said...

LOL good one. But how do you know it's a rich camel? ;)

Um, she demanded a diamond before she'd agree to sex?
--
-----------
Brian E. Clark
.

User: "Michael Gray"
Title: Re: The camel and the eye of the needle	30 Aug 2005 03:04:30 AM

On Sun, 28 Aug 2005 23:20:13 +0200, Pat O'Beur
<pat.o'beur@frogland.fr> wrote:

On Sun, 28 Aug 2005 16:29:36 -0400, Josef Balluch wrote:

LOL good one. But how do you know it's a rich camel? ;)

Taste it first.
.

User: "duke"
Title: Re: The camel and the eye of the needle	28 Aug 2005 08:44:23 PM

On Sun, 28 Aug 2005 20:33:14 +0100, "Steve O" <stoboyle@hotmail.com> wrote:

That's not what he meant. But I know.

So how big is the eye of the needle?
It depends on the size of the needle.
The dimensions of a modern sewing needle are 1 millimeter long, 0.3
millimetres wide, 0.5 millimetres deep, with a total volume of 0.15 cubic
millimetres.
Having blended our camel, it must be pipetted through the eye of our needle.
It would take 3,333,333,333 individual doses to pipette it through a needle
with that volume.

Probably. I'll give you that one. But keep going. This could be fun.

This would be a pretty tedious job, but we could automate it with an
automated pipettting machine that can deliver each dose at a rate of , say,
once every 15 seconds.
It would only take 5 billion seconds to pipette the whole camel through the
needle!
Unfortunately, that would take around 158 years and 161 days.
This would mean that no rich man who's died since 1847 (which includes
Rockerfeller, Vanderbilt, Astor and Carnegie) has been able to enter
paradise yet.
If it is indeed a place with a bevy of 72 virgins waiting, they must be
pretty bored by now.
But fear not - you don't have to throw in the towel yet and start
worshipping God or throwing all your hard earned cash away!.
Here are the dimensions of another needle I just found in my sewing box.
5mm x0.7mm x0.5mm (1.75 cubic millimeteres.)
Pipetting our camel through this needle would only take about 13.6 years -
equivalent to the time since 1992!For the chance of an eternity in paradise
surely this wouldn't seem long at all?
I've scoured the bible for any reference as to how long it would actually
take a rich man to enter the Kingdom of Heaven given the opportunity but
couldn't find any.
But at least we now know that the maximum waiting time is around the average
age of Michael Jackson's preferred sexual partner.
Hang in there Mr Gates!
You'll be OK!!

Nope, you missed the point ( pardon the pun) so far.
duke
*****
"The Mass is the most perfect form of Prayer."
Pope Paul VI
*****
.

User: "Steve O"
Title: Re: The camel and the eye of the needle	28 Aug 2005 09:06:28 PM

"duke" <duckgumbo32@cox.net> wrote in message
news:ic84h1d6tgd6hrohtniqajvckfmmrgdtrt@4ax.com...

On Sun, 28 Aug 2005 20:33:14 +0100, "Steve O" <stoboyle@hotmail.com>
wrote:

That's not what he meant. But I know.

So how big is the eye of the needle?
It depends on the size of the needle.

The dimensions of a modern sewing needle are 1 millimeter long, 0.3
millimetres wide, 0.5 millimetres deep, with a total volume of 0.15 cubic
millimetres.

Having blended our camel, it must be pipetted through the eye of our
needle.
It would take 3,333,333,333 individual doses to pipette it through a
needle
with that volume.

Probably. I'll give you that one. But keep going. This could be fun.

This would be a pretty tedious job, but we could automate it with an
automated pipettting machine that can deliver each dose at a rate of ,
say,
once every 15 seconds.
It would only take 5 billion seconds to pipette the whole camel through
the
needle!
Unfortunately, that would take around 158 years and 161 days.
This would mean that no rich man who's died since 1847 (which includes
Rockerfeller, Vanderbilt, Astor and Carnegie) has been able to enter
paradise yet.
If it is indeed a place with a bevy of 72 virgins waiting, they must be
pretty bored by now.
But fear not - you don't have to throw in the towel yet and start
worshipping God or throwing all your hard earned cash away!.
Here are the dimensions of another needle I just found in my sewing box.
5mm x0.7mm x0.5mm (1.75 cubic millimeteres.)
Pipetting our camel through this needle would only take about 13.6 years -
equivalent to the time since 1992!For the chance of an eternity in
paradise
surely this wouldn't seem long at all?
I've scoured the bible for any reference as to how long it would actually
take a rich man to enter the Kingdom of Heaven given the opportunity but
couldn't find any.
But at least we now know that the maximum waiting time is around the
average
age of Michael Jackson's preferred sexual partner.
Hang in there Mr Gates!
You'll be OK!!

Nope, you missed the point ( pardon the pun) so far.

So what is the point?
Explain it to me.
Why isn't it easy for a rich man to enter heaven?
Is being rich inherently evil?
How rich is your church?
--
Steve O
Atheist list #2240
"Some people are like Slinkies...
Not really good for anything, but
they still bring a smile to your face
when you push them down a flight of stairs"
~anon~
.

User: "duke"
Title: Re: The camel and the eye of the needle	29 Aug 2005 12:42:34 AM

On Sun, 28 Aug 2005 22:06:28 +0100, "Steve O" <stoboyle@hotmail.com> wrote:

Nope, you missed the point ( pardon the pun) so far.

So what is the point?
Explain it to me.

The "eye of the needle" is one of the gates to the old city.

Why isn't it easy for a rich man to enter heaven?
Is being rich inherently evil?
How rich is your church?

Money is not evil, unless it becomes one's god.
duke
*****
"The Mass is the most perfect form of Prayer."
Pope Paul VI
*****
.

User: "Steve O"
Title: Re: The camel and the eye of the needle	29 Aug 2005 05:01:56 AM

"duke" <duckgumbo32@cox.net> wrote in message
news:6bm4h115otf7mcskcbdb5al13r6r2m30j5@4ax.com...

On Sun, 28 Aug 2005 22:06:28 +0100, "Steve O" <stoboyle@hotmail.com>
wrote:

Nope, you missed the point ( pardon the pun) so far.

So what is the point?
Explain it to me.

The "eye of the needle" is one of the gates to the old city.

Cool.
I believe the gate was just a little bit smaller than a camel.
Forget the blender, maybe all we need is a few ropes and some axle grease.
--
Steve O
Atheist list #2240
"Some people are like Slinkies...
Not really good for anything, but
they still bring a smile to your face
when you push them down a flight of stairs"
~anon~
.

User: "Mike Painter"
Title: Re: The camel and the eye of the needle	29 Aug 2005 05:19:19 AM

duke wrote:

On Sun, 28 Aug 2005 22:06:28 +0100, "Steve O" <stoboyle@hotmail.com>
wrote:

Nope, you missed the point ( pardon the pun) so far.

So what is the point?
Explain it to me.

The "eye of the needle" is one of the gates to the old city.

As usual Earl parrots what he learned as a child rather than try to learn.
"camel caravan en route to Timbuktu, Mali, leaves a Sahara desert area known
to local camel herders as the "Eye of the Needle," a narrow pass through an
otherwise impassable region of sand dunes."
http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2003/05/photogalleries/salt/photo6.html
In which case it is in fact easy for a camel to pass through the eye of the
needle, it is the safest way.
http://www.ensignmessage.com/archives/needle.html probably gives a better
idea of the story.
"The author has been unable to find a particle of evidence that such a gate
was called the eye of a needle or the needle's eye in the time of Jesus. "
The writer notes that the reaction of the apostles was out of proportion to
the statement if a gate was in question but the idea of a rope fits nicely
with the idea of a real needle.
.

User: "duke"
Title: Re: The camel and the eye of the needle	30 Aug 2005 11:14:15 PM

On Mon, 29 Aug 2005 05:19:19 GMT, "Mike Painter" <mddotpainter@sbcglobal.net>
wrote:

The "eye of the needle" is one of the gates to the old city.

Jesus didn't go to timbuktu. He was referencing one of the gates to the old
city.

http://www.ensignmessage.com/archives/needle.html probably gives a better
idea of the story.
"The author has been unable to find a particle of evidence that such a gate
was called the eye of a needle or the needle's eye in the time of Jesus. "
The writer notes that the reaction of the apostles was out of proportion to
the statement if a gate was in question but the idea of a rope fits nicely
with the idea of a real needle.

He lied. He had the bible to go by.
duke
*****
"The Mass is the most perfect form of Prayer."
Pope Paul VI
*****
.

User: "Mike Painter"
Title: Re: The camel and the eye of the needle	31 Aug 2005 12:51:57 AM

duke wrote:

On Mon, 29 Aug 2005 05:19:19 GMT, "Mike Painter"
<mddotpainter@sbcglobal.net> wrote:

The "eye of the needle" is one of the gates to the old city.

As usual Earl parrots what he learned as a child rather than try to
learn.

"camel caravan en route to Timbuktu, Mali, leaves a Sahara desert
area known to local camel herders as the "Eye of the Needle," a
narrow pass through an otherwise impassable region of sand dunes."
http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2003/05/photogalleries/salt/photo6.html

In which case it is in fact easy for a camel to pass through the eye
of the needle, it is the safest way.

Jesus didn't go to timbuktu. He was referencing one of the gates to
the old city.

That's a guess on your part.

http://www.ensignmessage.com/archives/needle.html probably gives a
better idea of the story.

"The author has been unable to find a particle of evidence that such
a gate was called the eye of a needle or the needle's eye in the
time of Jesus. " The writer notes that the reaction of the apostles
was out of proportion to the statement if a gate was in question but
the idea of a rope fits nicely with the idea of a real needle.

He lied. He had the bible to go by.

Clearly you didn't read the article and clearly you are not interested in
learning.
.

User: "duke"
Title: Re: The camel and the eye of the needle	31 Aug 2005 11:26:00 PM

On Wed, 31 Aug 2005 00:51:57 GMT, "Mike Painter" <mddotpainter@sbcglobal.net>
wrote:

Jesus didn't go to timbuktu. He was referencing one of the gates to
the old city.

That's a guess on your part.

Yet he was intimately familiar with the gates in the old city but had no idea
what timbuktu was.
You blew it again, mikey.
duke
*****
"The Mass is the most perfect form of Prayer."
Pope Paul VI
*****
.

User: "Darrell Stec"
Title: Re: The camel and the eye of the needle	01 Sep 2005 01:33:38 AM

After serious contemplation, on or about Wednesday 31 August 2005 7:26 pm
duckgumbo32@cox.net wrote:

On Wed, 31 Aug 2005 00:51:57 GMT, "Mike Painter"
<mddotpainter@sbcglobal.net> wrote:

Jesus didn't go to timbuktu. He was referencing one of the gates to
the old city.

That's a guess on your part.

Yet he was intimately familiar with the gates in the old city but had no
idea what timbuktu was.

You blew it again, mikey.

duke
*****
"The Mass is the most perfect form of Prayer."
Pope Paul VI
*****

Please show me in ANY of the Greek literature of the second or third century
CE that needle referred to a gate of the city. It was a nice justification
for what looked like an absurdity. But absurdity and hyperbole spoken by a
Cynic philosopher was exactly what would make a statement memorable. The
needle referred in Luke to a surgical needle specifically, and a sewing
needle in Matthew and Mark.
If you think I am wrong, please show me some Greek passages in writings
contemporary with the time the gospels were written (mid second century CE)
that rhaphos or belones is translated as gate of a city.
You won't because you can't. Most probably you will ignore the post
completely or make more baseless assertions.
--
Later,
Darrell Stec

Webpage Sorcery
http://webpagesorcery.com
We Put the Magic in Your Webpages
.

User: "duke"
Title: Re: The camel and the eye of the needle	02 Sep 2005 10:25:13 AM

On Wed, 31 Aug 2005 21:33:38 -0400, Darrell Stec
<darrell_stec@webpagesorcery.com> wrote:

Please show me in ANY of the Greek literature of the second or third century
CE that needle referred to a gate of the city.

Try Aramaic literature of 33 AD.

It was a nice justification
for what looked like an absurdity. But absurdity and hyperbole spoken by a
Cynic philosopher was exactly what would make a statement memorable. The
needle referred in Luke to a surgical needle specifically, and a sewing
needle in Matthew and Mark.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's a gate in the wall of the old city.

If you think I am wrong, please show me some Greek passages in writings
contemporary with the time the gospels were written (mid second century CE)
that rhaphos or belones is translated as gate of a city.

I use the results of the research data.

You won't because you can't. Most probably you will ignore the post
completely or make more baseless assertions.

You should try contacting the people who have done the research for the last
2000 years.
duke
*****
"The Mass is the most perfect form of Prayer."
Pope Paul VI
*****
.

User: "Darrell Stec"
Title: Re: The camel and the eye of the needle	02 Sep 2005 11:30:32 AM

After serious contemplation, on or about Friday 02 September 2005 6:25 am
duckgumbo32@cox.net wrote:

On Wed, 31 Aug 2005 21:33:38 -0400, Darrell Stec
<darrell_stec@webpagesorcery.com> wrote:

Please show me in ANY of the Greek literature of the second or third
century CE that needle referred to a gate of the city.

Try Aramaic literature of 33 AD.

What did you have in mind? The gospels were written in Greek. Aramaic
gospels are very late. The earliest fragment is from the fifth century CE.
The earliest manuscript is tenth century CE.
I am aware of the literature and state implicitly that there is nothing
calling a gate a needle. You are simply lying. If you were not, you would
give an exact source.
By the way Dukie, when are you going to take my little three question test
which you have been ignoring so far?

It was a nice justification
for what looked like an absurdity. But absurdity and hyperbole spoken by
a
Cynic philosopher was exactly what would make a statement memorable. The
needle referred in Luke to a surgical needle specifically, and a sewing
needle in Matthew and Mark.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's a gate in the wall of the old city.

Please name the exact Greek text that calls a gate a needle from the second
or third century CE when the gospels were written. You had better hope
your pope is wrong about lying being a mortal sin. If you die before
confession, your goose is cooked if the pope is right.
What proof do you have that rhaphos is translated as anything other than
sewing needle, and that belones is translated as anything other than
surgical needle? You idiot. I took Greek when I studied for the
priesthood. Hebrew, Greek and Latin were required subjects.

If you think I am wrong, please show me some Greek passages in writings
contemporary with the time the gospels were written (mid second century
CE) that rhaphos or belones is translated as gate of a city.

I use the results of the research data.

No you don't and stop lying. You just make things up as you go along.
There is not one researcher who has ever given any evidence from the
literature of the time that the needle was a gate at the time the gospel
were written. Not one. If you think I am wrong please provide the
citation by ANY researcher who provides such evidence from the literature
of the day. You can't because none exists.
You really do make all Catholics look bad. And even worse -- stupid liars.

You won't because you can't. Most probably you will ignore the post
completely or make more baseless assertions.

You should try contacting the people who have done the research for the
last 2000 years.

I happen to be one of those people. And I know others in the field. They
were my professors. Some of them wrote the very apologetics you might read
although I am rather sure whatever they write is far beyond your
comprehension level.

duke
*****
"The Mass is the most perfect form of Prayer."
Pope Paul VI
*****

--
Later,
Darrell Stec

Webpage Sorcery
http://webpagesorcery.com
We Put the Magic in Your Webpages
.

User: "duke"
Title: Re: The camel and the eye of the needle	02 Sep 2005 10:50:05 PM

On Fri, 02 Sep 2005 07:30:32 -0400, Darrell Stec
<darrell_stec@webpagesorcery.com> wrote:

Please show me in ANY of the Greek literature of the second or third
century CE that needle referred to a gate of the city.

Try Aramaic literature of 33 AD.

What did you have in mind? The gospels were written in Greek.

But the words were spoken in Aramaic by Jesus, so Greek, which is a very
difficult language to translate, did not do justice to the words of Christ.
Let's be honest and call the "Greek" gospels the first translation.

Aramaic
gospels are very late. The earliest fragment is from the fifth century CE.
The earliest manuscript is tenth century CE.

Better luck next time.

I am aware of the literature and state implicitly that there is nothing
calling a gate a needle. You are simply lying. If you were not, you would
give an exact source.

Hey, millions of man hours of biblical research says there is.

By the way Dukie, when are you going to take my little three question test
which you have been ignoring so far?

??? I believe that I did.

The Pope and I concur.

What proof do you have that rhaphos is translated as anything other than
sewing needle, and that belones is translated as anything other than
surgical needle? You idiot. I took Greek when I studied for the
priesthood. Hebrew, Greek and Latin were required subjects.

Heavy research says the was a gate called the "eye of the needle" in the old
city.

If you think I am wrong, please show me some Greek passages in writings
contemporary with the time the gospels were written (mid second century
CE) that rhaphos or belones is translated as gate of a city.

I use the results of the research data.

No you don't and stop lying. You just make things up as you go along.

Sorry bubba, but the past research is overwhelming against your solitary effort.

There is not one researcher who has ever given any evidence from the
literature of the time that the needle was a gate at the time the gospel
were written. Not one. If you think I am wrong please provide the
citation by ANY researcher who provides such evidence from the literature
of the day. You can't because none exists.
You really do make all Catholics look bad. And even worse -- stupid liars.

Well, the Catholic Church IS the church that Jesus founded - 7 sacraments
offered and the Papacy to lead the Body of Christ, the people.

I happen to be one of those people.

Then you are calling the rest liars.
duke
*****
"The Mass is the most perfect form of Prayer."
Pope Paul VI
*****
.

Page 1 of 3

Post reply

OT: Many eyes for an eye
Saudi Arabia: Court Orders Eye to Be Gouged Out
Under Abe's watchful eye
OT: Global Eye -- Dead Reckoning
OT: Now Eye Know...
More danger than meets eye in upcoming Supreme Court case
"An *Eye* for an ~Eye~"...
Re: Queer Eye for the Straight Guy

Tookie William's death was needed euthanasia. He had been involved in the deaths of others. "Eye for an eye, tooth for a tooth".
Black Eye Peas question
Liberal DemocRAT Queer Eye For The Little Guy!
Evolution of eye
Another One in the Eye for So-Called Intelligent So-Called Design
Black Eye Peas question
Eye of god found

NEWER

pg.3585 pg.2749 pg.2106 pg.1612 pg.1232 pg.940 pg.716 pg.544 pg.412 pg.311 pg.234 pg.175 pg.130 pg.96 pg.70 pg.50 pg.35 pg.24 pg.16 pg.10 pg.6 pg.3 pg.1

OLDER