| Topic: |
Religions > Atheism |
| User: |
"Kenny Leong" |
| Date: |
09 Apr 2005 11:35:52 AM |
| Object: |
The fatal flaw proof to be given to every christian |
[Rant On]
I feel that this proof should be provided to every christian...so that
they can argue among themselves instead.
Put forth three conditions....fundamental attributes of the christian
god.
Condition A - God is all-knowing
Condition B - God is perfect planner
Condition C - God is perfect designer
ASK the christian if each condition above is TRUE. The self-evident
answer is TRUE according to their own teachings. If christian answers
'FALSE' to any of the above, then obviously God has flaws....which
would prove that the attributes of god taught to christians are
inaccurate.
Condition B relates to the christian god being a perfect planner.
Thus...the christian god should be perfect at planning anything at
all. Thus, we simply choose something as simple as 'mechanical
action/physical movement'. We ask the christian ... 'if you believe
that god is a perfect planner, then do you believe that your god
planned perfectly every single one of your future mechanical
actions/physical movements BEFORE you were even created?' Ask them to
answer 'yes' or 'no'.
If the christian says 'yes' - as in god planned/chose every single
future mechanical action - then the christian is on the ball and
understands simple logic. This automatically means that the christian
agrees that god chose their every mechanical action...which is exactly
the same as them having NO free will, which proves that the christian
teachings are fatally flawed (because the christians are taught the
opposite...ie taught that they have free will). We can tell them that.
If the christian says 'no' - as in god did not plan/choose every
single future mechanical action - then the christian is really
implying that god is not a perfect planner....because god did not even
plan (in advance of the product's creation) something as simple as the
product's mechanical actions. Thus this also proves that the christian
teachings are fatally flawed, because god is thus not a perfect
planner of something.........that is, not a perfect planner when it
comes to planning something as simple as mechanical actions. We can
tell them that.
This proof is not too bad, because it takes into account more than
just the omniscient property of the christian god. It also takes into
account the responsibility. That is.... being all-knowing does not
really make it absolutely clear (to the christians) who is responsible
for causing the whole problem. Just because god knows every future
action of people doesn't necessarily pin down who is responsible for
those actions. Thus it's very helpful to point out to the christians
that it is absolutely necessary that god planned and chose every
future mechanical action before he/she/it created anything. The future
product wasn't yet existing, and thus could not make any decisions or
move around. And yet....god knew every future movement, since god is a
perfect planner and thus planned perfectly those future movements.
This puts the full blame on god for all events related to god's
product.
The KEY is to FOCUS only on the condition prior to creation of the
product. Any talk of the product AFTER its creation is irrelevant. But
if you want to get really picky.....the product must actually exist
(in god's 'mind') as soon as 'god' became all-knowing, perfect
planning, and perfect designing.... because full-knowledge of the
product (including it's future movements) must come at the same time
as when god first attained his/her/its special properties. So
basically....as soon as 'god' attained his/her/its special properties,
there was immediately no need to create any product JUST to SEE what
the product will do....because the product immediately exists in god's
head as SOON as 'god' became omniscient.
Kenny
[Rant Off]
.
|
|
| User: "Randy Story" |
|
| Title: Re: The fatal flaw proof to be given to every christian |
09 Apr 2005 05:42:51 PM |
|
|
"Kenny Leong" <kenny_tm_leong@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:29154d7c.0504090335.2515914@posting.google.com...
[Rant On]
I feel that this proof should be provided to every christian...so that
they can argue among themselves instead.
Put forth three conditions....fundamental attributes of the christian
god.
Condition A - God is all-knowing
Condition B - God is perfect planner
Condition C - God is perfect designer
ASK the christian if each condition above is TRUE. The self-evident
answer is TRUE according to their own teachings. If christian answers
'FALSE' to any of the above, then obviously God has flaws....which
would prove that the attributes of god taught to christians are
inaccurate.
Condition B relates to the christian god being a perfect planner.
Thus...the christian god should be perfect at planning anything at
all. Thus, we simply choose something as simple as 'mechanical
action/physical movement'. We ask the christian ... 'if you believe
that god is a perfect planner, then do you believe that your god
planned perfectly every single one of your future mechanical
actions/physical movements BEFORE you were even created?' Ask them to
answer 'yes' or 'no'.
If the christian says 'yes' - as in god planned/chose every single
future mechanical action - then the christian is on the ball and
understands simple logic. This automatically means that the christian
agrees that god chose their every mechanical action...which is exactly
the same as them having NO free will, which proves that the christian
teachings are fatally flawed (because the christians are taught the
opposite...ie taught that they have free will). We can tell them that.
If the christian says 'no' - as in god did not plan/choose every
single future mechanical action - then the christian is really
implying that god is not a perfect planner....because god did not even
plan (in advance of the product's creation) something as simple as the
product's mechanical actions. Thus this also proves that the christian
teachings are fatally flawed, because god is thus not a perfect
planner of something.........that is, not a perfect planner when it
comes to planning something as simple as mechanical actions. We can
tell them that.
This proof is not too bad, because it takes into account more than
just the omniscient property of the christian god. It also takes into
account the responsibility. That is.... being all-knowing does not
really make it absolutely clear (to the christians) who is responsible
for causing the whole problem. Just because god knows every future
action of people doesn't necessarily pin down who is responsible for
those actions. Thus it's very helpful to point out to the christians
that it is absolutely necessary that god planned and chose every
future mechanical action before he/she/it created anything. The future
product wasn't yet existing, and thus could not make any decisions or
move around. And yet....god knew every future movement, since god is a
perfect planner and thus planned perfectly those future movements.
This puts the full blame on god for all events related to god's
product.
The KEY is to FOCUS only on the condition prior to creation of the
product. Any talk of the product AFTER its creation is irrelevant. But
if you want to get really picky.....the product must actually exist
(in god's 'mind') as soon as 'god' became all-knowing, perfect
planning, and perfect designing.... because full-knowledge of the
product (including it's future movements) must come at the same time
as when god first attained his/her/its special properties. So
basically....as soon as 'god' attained his/her/its special properties,
there was immediately no need to create any product JUST to SEE what
the product will do....because the product immediately exists in god's
head as SOON as 'god' became omniscient.
Kenny
[Rant Off]
The point is why wouldnt you Denis. It was already given that God is all
knowing, a perfect planner, a perfect designer and I am sure Duke would
believe God is perfect love also. If I had a God like this, why would you
question him. He can & will only do what is perfect, just, loving & right.
Enough said!!
.
|
|
|
| User: "Denis Loubet" |
|
| Title: Re: The fatal flaw proof to be given to every christian |
09 Apr 2005 10:55:15 PM |
|
|
"Randy Story" <rstorynw@olypen.com> wrote in message
news:115g56h1s0met1b@corp.supernews.com...
"Kenny Leong" <kenny_tm_leong@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:29154d7c.0504090335.2515914@posting.google.com...
[Rant On]
I feel that this proof should be provided to every christian...so that
they can argue among themselves instead.
Put forth three conditions....fundamental attributes of the christian
god.
Condition A - God is all-knowing
Condition B - God is perfect planner
Condition C - God is perfect designer
ASK the christian if each condition above is TRUE. The self-evident
answer is TRUE according to their own teachings. If christian answers
'FALSE' to any of the above, then obviously God has flaws....which
would prove that the attributes of god taught to christians are
inaccurate.
Condition B relates to the christian god being a perfect planner.
Thus...the christian god should be perfect at planning anything at
all. Thus, we simply choose something as simple as 'mechanical
action/physical movement'. We ask the christian ... 'if you believe
that god is a perfect planner, then do you believe that your god
planned perfectly every single one of your future mechanical
actions/physical movements BEFORE you were even created?' Ask them to
answer 'yes' or 'no'.
If the christian says 'yes' - as in god planned/chose every single
future mechanical action - then the christian is on the ball and
understands simple logic. This automatically means that the christian
agrees that god chose their every mechanical action...which is exactly
the same as them having NO free will, which proves that the christian
teachings are fatally flawed (because the christians are taught the
opposite...ie taught that they have free will). We can tell them that.
If the christian says 'no' - as in god did not plan/choose every
single future mechanical action - then the christian is really
implying that god is not a perfect planner....because god did not even
plan (in advance of the product's creation) something as simple as the
product's mechanical actions. Thus this also proves that the christian
teachings are fatally flawed, because god is thus not a perfect
planner of something.........that is, not a perfect planner when it
comes to planning something as simple as mechanical actions. We can
tell them that.
This proof is not too bad, because it takes into account more than
just the omniscient property of the christian god. It also takes into
account the responsibility. That is.... being all-knowing does not
really make it absolutely clear (to the christians) who is responsible
for causing the whole problem. Just because god knows every future
action of people doesn't necessarily pin down who is responsible for
those actions. Thus it's very helpful to point out to the christians
that it is absolutely necessary that god planned and chose every
future mechanical action before he/she/it created anything. The future
product wasn't yet existing, and thus could not make any decisions or
move around. And yet....god knew every future movement, since god is a
perfect planner and thus planned perfectly those future movements.
This puts the full blame on god for all events related to god's
product.
The KEY is to FOCUS only on the condition prior to creation of the
product. Any talk of the product AFTER its creation is irrelevant. But
if you want to get really picky.....the product must actually exist
(in god's 'mind') as soon as 'god' became all-knowing, perfect
planning, and perfect designing.... because full-knowledge of the
product (including it's future movements) must come at the same time
as when god first attained his/her/its special properties. So
basically....as soon as 'god' attained his/her/its special properties,
there was immediately no need to create any product JUST to SEE what
the product will do....because the product immediately exists in god's
head as SOON as 'god' became omniscient.
Kenny
[Rant Off]
The point is why wouldnt you Denis.
You talking to me? I didn't write the above. But I'll respond anyway.
It was already given that God is all
knowing, a perfect planner, a perfect designer and I am sure Duke would
believe God is perfect love also.
And that's what I said when I wrote "You just arbitrarily decide the god is
good, and worship it." The god's goodness being a given is the essence of
arbitrary. It means you are applying no standard whatsoever.
If I had a God like this, why would you
question him.
I would never have one like that because I would never arbiterarily decide
that something is good just so I could worship it.
And even if I did, I would continue to examine it, because I have the
humility to admit that my judgment can be wrong.
You apparently don't. You say the god is good and perfect and oh so
wonderful, without considering any possiblilty that you could be wrong. It
must be nice to think that you are omniscient with respect to identifying
gods, and determining that their unknowable motives are good and perfect.
I don't share such delusions.
He can & will only do what is perfect, just, loving & right.
As you have arbitrarily decided. Yes, I understand that you have no
justification whatsoever for accepting as given what you accept as given.
Enough said!!
Yes, by all means, don't you dare consider that you might be wrong. Adhere
to your implication that your knowedge is perfect. That's a good dogmatist.
--
Denis Loubet
dloubet@io.com
http://www.io.com/~dloubet
.
|
|
|
| User: "Kenny Leong" |
|
| Title: Re: The fatal flaw proof to be given to every christian |
10 Apr 2005 02:40:25 AM |
|
|
"Denis Loubet" <dloubet@io.com> wrote in message news:<p8idnQ0GJK7OwMXfRVn-gA@io.com>...
"Randy Story" <rstorynw@olypen.com> wrote in message
news:115g56h1s0met1b@corp.supernews.com...
"Kenny Leong" <kenny_tm_leong@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:29154d7c.0504090335.2515914@posting.google.com...
[Rant On]
I feel that this proof should be provided to every christian...so that
they can argue among themselves instead.
Put forth three conditions....fundamental attributes of the christian
god.
Condition A - God is all-knowing
Condition B - God is perfect planner
Condition C - God is perfect designer
ASK the christian if each condition above is TRUE. The self-evident
answer is TRUE according to their own teachings. If christian answers
'FALSE' to any of the above, then obviously God has flaws....which
would prove that the attributes of god taught to christians are
inaccurate.
Condition B relates to the christian god being a perfect planner.
Thus...the christian god should be perfect at planning anything at
all. Thus, we simply choose something as simple as 'mechanical
action/physical movement'. We ask the christian ... 'if you believe
that god is a perfect planner, then do you believe that your god
planned perfectly every single one of your future mechanical
actions/physical movements BEFORE you were even created?' Ask them to
answer 'yes' or 'no'.
If the christian says 'yes' - as in god planned/chose every single
future mechanical action - then the christian is on the ball and
understands simple logic. This automatically means that the christian
agrees that god chose their every mechanical action...which is exactly
the same as them having NO free will, which proves that the christian
teachings are fatally flawed (because the christians are taught the
opposite...ie taught that they have free will). We can tell them that.
If the christian says 'no' - as in god did not plan/choose every
single future mechanical action - then the christian is really
implying that god is not a perfect planner....because god did not even
plan (in advance of the product's creation) something as simple as the
product's mechanical actions. Thus this also proves that the christian
teachings are fatally flawed, because god is thus not a perfect
planner of something.........that is, not a perfect planner when it
comes to planning something as simple as mechanical actions. We can
tell them that.
This proof is not too bad, because it takes into account more than
just the omniscient property of the christian god. It also takes into
account the responsibility. That is.... being all-knowing does not
really make it absolutely clear (to the christians) who is responsible
for causing the whole problem. Just because god knows every future
action of people doesn't necessarily pin down who is responsible for
those actions. Thus it's very helpful to point out to the christians
that it is absolutely necessary that god planned and chose every
future mechanical action before he/she/it created anything. The future
product wasn't yet existing, and thus could not make any decisions or
move around. And yet....god knew every future movement, since god is a
perfect planner and thus planned perfectly those future movements.
This puts the full blame on god for all events related to god's
product.
The KEY is to FOCUS only on the condition prior to creation of the
product. Any talk of the product AFTER its creation is irrelevant. But
if you want to get really picky.....the product must actually exist
(in god's 'mind') as soon as 'god' became all-knowing, perfect
planning, and perfect designing.... because full-knowledge of the
product (including it's future movements) must come at the same time
as when god first attained his/her/its special properties. So
basically....as soon as 'god' attained his/her/its special properties,
there was immediately no need to create any product JUST to SEE what
the product will do....because the product immediately exists in god's
head as SOON as 'god' became omniscient.
Kenny
[Rant Off]
The point is why wouldnt you Denis.
You talking to me? I didn't write the above. But I'll respond anyway.
It was already given that God is all
knowing, a perfect planner, a perfect designer and I am sure Duke would
believe God is perfect love also.
And that's what I said when I wrote "You just arbitrarily decide the god is
good, and worship it." The god's goodness being a given is the essence of
arbitrary. It means you are applying no standard whatsoever.
Very excellent points made there Denis. And if Randy is absolutely
convinced that his god is 'perfect', such as having a quality of
'perfect love', then I guess it's quite remarkable how the biblically
described 'sin' and 'evil' can appear.....especially when no 'sin' and
'evil' was anywhere to be found in the 'beginning'....before 'god'
created anything.
So if there was initially no 'evil' and 'sin', the I'm wondering who
the hell was "responsible" for releasing it? We can't blame god's
product, because it wasn't god's product that originally lifted any
finger or thought to create a product that had 'sin' and 'evil' in it.
A good analogy is to introduce a biological control animal to a
country, and the biological control animal gets out of control in that
country, and it begins to cause serious problems by competing with and
eating the native wildlife and multiplying to uncontrollable
populations. Then everybody in that country says that the biological
'pest' is really terrible and nasty, and they all go out to kill as
many of these 'pests' as possible. But in the end....who was
responsible for the problem? Was it the biological control animal? Or
was it the people that introduced it? The people here can be equated
to the christian 'god'. The people lifted the first finger to cause
their own problem. The product had no say whatsoever about wanting to
be introduced, and this the whole blame is actually on the people that
introduced it. Similarly, it was the christian 'god' that gave no
choice to anybody to be introduced to the universe or not. And unlike
the 'human' introducers of the biological control, the christian 'god'
is supposed to be all-knowing, and perfect planning/designing...and
thus has the ability to foresee and fore-determine/plan every single
future mechanical movement of it's future product...and therefore
god's own introduced product could NOT have possibly gone out of
control in anyway whatsoever. But yet...the christians preach a
different story...saying that their product went out of control. This
reveals the fatal flaw in the christian teaching.
Kenny
.
|
|
|
|
|
| User: "Kenny Leong" |
|
| Title: Re: The fatal flaw proof to be given to every christian |
09 Apr 2005 11:53:34 PM |
|
|
"Randy Story" <rstorynw@olypen.com> wrote in message news:<115g56h1s0met1b@corp.supernews.com>...
"Kenny Leong" <kenny_tm_leong@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:29154d7c.0504090335.2515914@posting.google.com...
[Rant On]
I feel that this proof should be provided to every christian...so that
they can argue among themselves instead.
Put forth three conditions....fundamental attributes of the christian
god.
Condition A - God is all-knowing
Condition B - God is perfect planner
Condition C - God is perfect designer
ASK the christian if each condition above is TRUE. The self-evident
answer is TRUE according to their own teachings. If christian answers
'FALSE' to any of the above, then obviously God has flaws....which
would prove that the attributes of god taught to christians are
inaccurate.
Condition B relates to the christian god being a perfect planner.
Thus...the christian god should be perfect at planning anything at
all. Thus, we simply choose something as simple as 'mechanical
action/physical movement'. We ask the christian ... 'if you believe
that god is a perfect planner, then do you believe that your god
planned perfectly every single one of your future mechanical
actions/physical movements BEFORE you were even created?' Ask them to
answer 'yes' or 'no'.
If the christian says 'yes' - as in god planned/chose every single
future mechanical action - then the christian is on the ball and
understands simple logic. This automatically means that the christian
agrees that god chose their every mechanical action...which is exactly
the same as them having NO free will, which proves that the christian
teachings are fatally flawed (because the christians are taught the
opposite...ie taught that they have free will). We can tell them that.
If the christian says 'no' - as in god did not plan/choose every
single future mechanical action - then the christian is really
implying that god is not a perfect planner....because god did not even
plan (in advance of the product's creation) something as simple as the
product's mechanical actions. Thus this also proves that the christian
teachings are fatally flawed, because god is thus not a perfect
planner of something.........that is, not a perfect planner when it
comes to planning something as simple as mechanical actions. We can
tell them that.
This proof is not too bad, because it takes into account more than
just the omniscient property of the christian god. It also takes into
account the responsibility. That is.... being all-knowing does not
really make it absolutely clear (to the christians) who is responsible
for causing the whole problem. Just because god knows every future
action of people doesn't necessarily pin down who is responsible for
those actions. Thus it's very helpful to point out to the christians
that it is absolutely necessary that god planned and chose every
future mechanical action before he/she/it created anything. The future
product wasn't yet existing, and thus could not make any decisions or
move around. And yet....god knew every future movement, since god is a
perfect planner and thus planned perfectly those future movements.
This puts the full blame on god for all events related to god's
product.
The KEY is to FOCUS only on the condition prior to creation of the
product. Any talk of the product AFTER its creation is irrelevant. But
if you want to get really picky.....the product must actually exist
(in god's 'mind') as soon as 'god' became all-knowing, perfect
planning, and perfect designing.... because full-knowledge of the
product (including it's future movements) must come at the same time
as when god first attained his/her/its special properties. So
basically....as soon as 'god' attained his/her/its special properties,
there was immediately no need to create any product JUST to SEE what
the product will do....because the product immediately exists in god's
head as SOON as 'god' became omniscient.
Kenny
[Rant Off]
The point is why wouldnt you Denis.
I'm Kenny...not Denis.
It was already given that God is all
knowing, a perfect planner, a perfect designer and I am sure Duke would
believe God is perfect love also. If I had a God like this, why would you
question him. He can & will only do what is perfect, just, loving & right.
Enough said!!
I'm questioning to see if you and dukey understand the obvious fatal
flaw in your christian teachings. That's what I'm questioning. I laid
out a set of flawless questions for you to answer. All you have to do
now is to answer them to see where your christian teachings is fatally
flawed.
Kenny
.
|
|
|
| User: "k_ate" |
|
| Title: Re: The fatal flaw proof to be given to every christian |
10 Apr 2005 03:43:51 AM |
|
|
Kenny Leong wrote:
"Randy Story" <rstorynw@olypen.com> wrote in message
news:<115g56h1s0met1b@corp.supernews.com>...
"Kenny Leong" <kenny_tm_leong@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:29154d7c.0504090335.2515914@posting.google.com...
[Rant On]
I feel that this proof should be provided to every christian...so
that
they can argue among themselves instead.
Put forth three conditions....fundamental attributes of the
christian
god.
Condition A - God is all-knowing
Condition B - God is perfect planner
Condition C - God is perfect designer
ASK the christian if each condition above is TRUE. The
self-evident
answer is TRUE according to their own teachings. If christian
answers
'FALSE' to any of the above, then obviously God has
flaws....which
would prove that the attributes of god taught to christians are
inaccurate.
Condition B relates to the christian god being a perfect planner.
Thus...the christian god should be perfect at planning anything
at
all. Thus, we simply choose something as simple as 'mechanical
action/physical movement'. We ask the christian ... 'if you
believe
that god is a perfect planner, then do you believe that your god
planned perfectly every single one of your future mechanical
actions/physical movements BEFORE you were even created?' Ask
them to
answer 'yes' or 'no'.
If the christian says 'yes' - as in god planned/chose every
single
future mechanical action - then the christian is on the ball and
understands simple logic. This automatically means that the
christian
agrees that god chose their every mechanical action...which is
exactly
the same as them having NO free will, which proves that the
christian
teachings are fatally flawed (because the christians are taught
the
opposite...ie taught that they have free will). We can tell them
that.
If the christian says 'no' - as in god did not plan/choose every
single future mechanical action - then the christian is really
implying that god is not a perfect planner....because god did not
even
plan (in advance of the product's creation) something as simple
as the
product's mechanical actions. Thus this also proves that the
christian
teachings are fatally flawed, because god is thus not a perfect
planner of something.........that is, not a perfect planner when
it
comes to planning something as simple as mechanical actions. We
can
tell them that.
This proof is not too bad, because it takes into account more
than
just the omniscient property of the christian god. It also takes
into
account the responsibility. That is.... being all-knowing does
not
really make it absolutely clear (to the christians) who is
responsible
for causing the whole problem. Just because god knows every
future
action of people doesn't necessarily pin down who is responsible
for
those actions. Thus it's very helpful to point out to the
christians
that it is absolutely necessary that god planned and chose every
future mechanical action before he/she/it created anything. The
future
product wasn't yet existing, and thus could not make any
decisions or
move around. And yet....god knew every future movement, since god
is a
perfect planner and thus planned perfectly those future
movements.
This puts the full blame on god for all events related to god's
product.
The KEY is to FOCUS only on the condition prior to creation of
the
product. Any talk of the product AFTER its creation is
irrelevant. But
if you want to get really picky.....the product must actually
exist
(in god's 'mind') as soon as 'god' became all-knowing, perfect
planning, and perfect designing.... because full-knowledge of the
product (including it's future movements) must come at the same
time
as when god first attained his/her/its special properties. So
basically....as soon as 'god' attained his/her/its special
properties,
there was immediately no need to create any product JUST to SEE
what
the product will do....because the product immediately exists in
god's
head as SOON as 'god' became omniscient.
Kenny
[Rant Off]
The point is why wouldnt you Denis.
I'm Kenny...not Denis.
It was already given that God is all
knowing, a perfect planner, a perfect designer and I am sure Duke
would
believe God is perfect love also. If I had a God like this, why
would you
question him. He can & will only do what is perfect, just, loving &
right.
Enough said!!
I'm questioning to see if you and dukey understand the obvious fatal
flaw in your christian teachings. That's what I'm questioning. I laid
out a set of flawless questions for you to answer. All you have to do
now is to answer them to see where your christian teachings is
fatally
flawed.
Kenny
your questions (one anyway) assume that god knowing what we would do
is the same as wanting us to do it. not so.
kate
.
|
|
|
| User: "Denis Loubet" |
|
| Title: Re: The fatal flaw proof to be given to every christian |
10 Apr 2005 06:19:15 AM |
|
|
"k_ate" <bellecate@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1113104631.207130.193820@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com...
Kenny Leong wrote:
"Randy Story" <rstorynw@olypen.com> wrote in message
news:<115g56h1s0met1b@corp.supernews.com>...
"Kenny Leong" <kenny_tm_leong@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:29154d7c.0504090335.2515914@posting.google.com...
[Rant On]
I feel that this proof should be provided to every christian...so
that
they can argue among themselves instead.
Put forth three conditions....fundamental attributes of the
christian
god.
Condition A - God is all-knowing
Condition B - God is perfect planner
Condition C - God is perfect designer
ASK the christian if each condition above is TRUE. The
self-evident
answer is TRUE according to their own teachings. If christian
answers
'FALSE' to any of the above, then obviously God has
flaws....which
would prove that the attributes of god taught to christians are
inaccurate.
Condition B relates to the christian god being a perfect planner.
Thus...the christian god should be perfect at planning anything
at
all. Thus, we simply choose something as simple as 'mechanical
action/physical movement'. We ask the christian ... 'if you
believe
that god is a perfect planner, then do you believe that your god
planned perfectly every single one of your future mechanical
actions/physical movements BEFORE you were even created?' Ask
them to
answer 'yes' or 'no'.
If the christian says 'yes' - as in god planned/chose every
single
future mechanical action - then the christian is on the ball and
understands simple logic. This automatically means that the
christian
agrees that god chose their every mechanical action...which is
exactly
the same as them having NO free will, which proves that the
christian
teachings are fatally flawed (because the christians are taught
the
opposite...ie taught that they have free will). We can tell them
that.
If the christian says 'no' - as in god did not plan/choose every
single future mechanical action - then the christian is really
implying that god is not a perfect planner....because god did not
even
plan (in advance of the product's creation) something as simple
as the
product's mechanical actions. Thus this also proves that the
christian
teachings are fatally flawed, because god is thus not a perfect
planner of something.........that is, not a perfect planner when
it
comes to planning something as simple as mechanical actions. We
can
tell them that.
This proof is not too bad, because it takes into account more
than
just the omniscient property of the christian god. It also takes
into
account the responsibility. That is.... being all-knowing does
not
really make it absolutely clear (to the christians) who is
responsible
for causing the whole problem. Just because god knows every
future
action of people doesn't necessarily pin down who is responsible
for
those actions. Thus it's very helpful to point out to the
christians
that it is absolutely necessary that god planned and chose every
future mechanical action before he/she/it created anything. The
future
product wasn't yet existing, and thus could not make any
decisions or
move around. And yet....god knew every future movement, since god
is a
perfect planner and thus planned perfectly those future
movements.
This puts the full blame on god for all events related to god's
product.
The KEY is to FOCUS only on the condition prior to creation of
the
product. Any talk of the product AFTER its creation is
irrelevant. But
if you want to get really picky.....the product must actually
exist
(in god's 'mind') as soon as 'god' became all-knowing, perfect
planning, and perfect designing.... because full-knowledge of the
product (including it's future movements) must come at the same
time
as when god first attained his/her/its special properties. So
basically....as soon as 'god' attained his/her/its special
properties,
there was immediately no need to create any product JUST to SEE
what
the product will do....because the product immediately exists in
god's
head as SOON as 'god' became omniscient.
Kenny
[Rant Off]
The point is why wouldnt you Denis.
I'm Kenny...not Denis.
It was already given that God is all
knowing, a perfect planner, a perfect designer and I am sure Duke
would
believe God is perfect love also. If I had a God like this, why
would you
question him. He can & will only do what is perfect, just, loving &
right.
Enough said!!
I'm questioning to see if you and dukey understand the obvious fatal
flaw in your christian teachings. That's what I'm questioning. I laid
out a set of flawless questions for you to answer. All you have to do
now is to answer them to see where your christian teachings is
fatally
flawed.
Kenny
your questions (one anyway) assume that god knowing what we would do
is the same as wanting us to do it. not so.
But it's all part of the plan, right? If it's part of the god's plan, then
it's proceeding exactly as the god designed it to. If the god wanted things
to be different, they'd be different. That's omnipotence.
So the god WANTS things to be the way they are. That's an inescapable
ramification of omniscience and omnipotence.
--
Denis Loubet
dloubet@io.com
http://www.io.com/~dloubet
.
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| User: "DianaC" |
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| Title: Re: The fatal flaw proof to be given to every christian |
09 Apr 2005 02:23:14 PM |
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"Kenny Leong" <kenny_tm_leong@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:29154d7c.0504090335.2515914@posting.google.com...
[Rant On]
I feel that this proof should be provided to every christian...so that
they can argue among themselves instead.
Put forth three conditions....fundamental attributes of the christian
god.
Condition A - God is all-knowing
Condition B - God is perfect planner
Condition C - God is perfect designer
ASK the christian if each condition above is TRUE. The self-evident
answer is TRUE according to their own teachings. If christian answers
'FALSE' to any of the above, then obviously God has flaws....which
would prove that the attributes of god taught to christians are
inaccurate.
Condition B relates to the christian god being a perfect planner.
Thus...the christian god should be perfect at planning anything at
all. Thus, we simply choose something as simple as 'mechanical
action/physical movement'. We ask the christian ... 'if you believe
that god is a perfect planner, then do you believe that your god
planned perfectly every single one of your future mechanical
actions/physical movements BEFORE you were even created?' Ask them to
answer 'yes' or 'no'.
If the christian says 'yes' - as in god planned/chose every single
future mechanical action - then the christian is on the ball and
understands simple logic. This automatically means that the christian
agrees that god chose their every mechanical action...which is exactly
the same as them having NO free will, which proves that the christian
teachings are fatally flawed (because the christians are taught the
opposite...ie taught that they have free will). We can tell them that.
If the christian says 'no' - as in god did not plan/choose every
single future mechanical action - then the christian is really
implying that god is not a perfect planner....because god did not even
plan (in advance of the product's creation) something as simple as the
product's mechanical actions. Thus this also proves that the christian
teachings are fatally flawed, because god is thus not a perfect
planner of something.........that is, not a perfect planner when it
comes to planning something as simple as mechanical actions. We can
tell them that.
This proof is not too bad, because it takes into account more than
just the omniscient property of the christian god. It also takes into
account the responsibility. That is.... being all-knowing does not
really make it absolutely clear (to the christians) who is responsible
for causing the whole problem. Just because god knows every future
action of people doesn't necessarily pin down who is responsible for
those actions. Thus it's very helpful to point out to the christians
that it is absolutely necessary that god planned and chose every
future mechanical action before he/she/it created anything. The future
product wasn't yet existing, and thus could not make any decisions or
move around. And yet....god knew every future movement, since god is a
perfect planner and thus planned perfectly those future movements.
This puts the full blame on god for all events related to god's
product.
The KEY is to FOCUS only on the condition prior to creation of the
product. Any talk of the product AFTER its creation is irrelevant. But
if you want to get really picky.....the product must actually exist
(in god's 'mind') as soon as 'god' became all-knowing, perfect
planning, and perfect designing.... because full-knowledge of the
product (including it's future movements) must come at the same time
as when god first attained his/her/its special properties. So
basically....as soon as 'god' attained his/her/its special properties,
there was immediately no need to create any product JUST to SEE what
the product will do....because the product immediately exists in god's
head as SOON as 'god' became omniscient.
Kenny
[Rant Off]
And does it feel good to argue with yourself? You realize that if even ONE
person you hand this rant to has the tiniest bit of belief different from
the ones you ascribe to him, your entire argument is going to be thrown away
as being terminally stupid, yes?
That's the problem with erecting strawmen to knock down. It might make you
feel better, but it doesn't do much against the real opponent.
.
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| User: "Kenny Leong" |
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| Title: Re: The fatal flaw proof to be given to every christian |
09 Apr 2005 09:41:14 PM |
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"DianaC" <dianaiad@vernoyoudontizon.net> wrote in message news:<mzR5e.3526$hB6.501@trnddc06>...
"Kenny Leong" <kenny_tm_leong@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:29154d7c.0504090335.2515914@posting.google.com...
[Rant On]
I feel that this proof should be provided to every christian...so that
they can argue among themselves instead.
Put forth three conditions....fundamental attributes of the christian
god.
Condition A - God is all-knowing
Condition B - God is perfect planner
Condition C - God is perfect designer
ASK the christian if each condition above is TRUE. The self-evident
answer is TRUE according to their own teachings. If christian answers
'FALSE' to any of the above, then obviously God has flaws....which
would prove that the attributes of god taught to christians are
inaccurate.
Condition B relates to the christian god being a perfect planner.
Thus...the christian god should be perfect at planning anything at
all. Thus, we simply choose something as simple as 'mechanical
action/physical movement'. We ask the christian ... 'if you believe
that god is a perfect planner, then do you believe that your god
planned perfectly every single one of your future mechanical
actions/physical movements BEFORE you were even created?' Ask them to
answer 'yes' or 'no'.
If the christian says 'yes' - as in god planned/chose every single
future mechanical action - then the christian is on the ball and
understands simple logic. This automatically means that the christian
agrees that god chose their every mechanical action...which is exactly
the same as them having NO free will, which proves that the christian
teachings are fatally flawed (because the christians are taught the
opposite...ie taught that they have free will). We can tell them that.
If the christian says 'no' - as in god did not plan/choose every
single future mechanical action - then the christian is really
implying that god is not a perfect planner....because god did not even
plan (in advance of the product's creation) something as simple as the
product's mechanical actions. Thus this also proves that the christian
teachings are fatally flawed, because god is thus not a perfect
planner of something.........that is, not a perfect planner when it
comes to planning something as simple as mechanical actions. We can
tell them that.
This proof is not too bad, because it takes into account more than
just the omniscient property of the christian god. It also takes into
account the responsibility. That is.... being all-knowing does not
really make it absolutely clear (to the christians) who is responsible
for causing the whole problem. Just because god knows every future
action of people doesn't necessarily pin down who is responsible for
those actions. Thus it's very helpful to point out to the christians
that it is absolutely necessary that god planned and chose every
future mechanical action before he/she/it created anything. The future
product wasn't yet existing, and thus could not make any decisions or
move around. And yet....god knew every future movement, since god is a
perfect planner and thus planned perfectly those future movements.
This puts the full blame on god for all events related to god's
product.
The KEY is to FOCUS only on the condition prior to creation of the
product. Any talk of the product AFTER its creation is irrelevant. But
if you want to get really picky.....the product must actually exist
(in god's 'mind') as soon as 'god' became all-knowing, perfect
planning, and perfect designing.... because full-knowledge of the
product (including it's future movements) must come at the same time
as when god first attained his/her/its special properties. So
basically....as soon as 'god' attained his/her/its special properties,
there was immediately no need to create any product JUST to SEE what
the product will do....because the product immediately exists in god's
head as SOON as 'god' became omniscient.
Kenny
[Rant Off]
And does it feel good to argue with yourself? You realize that if even ONE
Well....I presented a derivation from self-evident 'truths' based on
the christian god's fundamental attributes.
person you hand this rant to has the tiniest bit of belief different from
the ones you ascribe to him, your entire argument is going to be thrown away
as being terminally stupid, yes?
Actually....no, not at all. You didn't what I posted before your
prematurely made your baseless replies...right?
That's the problem with erecting strawmen to knock down. It might make you
feel better, but it doesn't do much against the real opponent.
It appears as though you didn't read what I wrote, or comment on any
of the points in my original post. So you're in no position to talk
about strawmen and opponents until you show that you understand the
information contained in my post. If you have any problems with the
details of the post, then pick out any of the points mentioned in the
post and discuss it. Comments from sidelining backseat drivers don't
count.
Kenny
.
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| User: "DianaC" |
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| Title: Re: The fatal flaw proof to be given to every christian |
09 Apr 2005 10:24:58 PM |
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"Kenny Leong" <kenny_tm_leong@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:29154d7c.0504091341.9401a6a@posting.google.com...
<snip to>
And does it feel good to argue with yourself? You realize that if even
ONE
Well....I presented a derivation from self-evident 'truths' based on
the christian god's fundamental attributes.
According to whom? Remember, as a nonbeliever YOU don't get to decide what
those attributes are. Only a believer can do that, and you have to deal with
what HE believes, not what you insist he should believe.
person you hand this rant to has the tiniest bit of belief different from
the ones you ascribe to him, your entire argument is going to be thrown
away
as being terminally stupid, yes?
Actually....no, not at all. You didn't what I posted before your
prematurely made your baseless replies...right?
I read your post. My points are valid. Yours only apply to those Christians
who believe precisely what you think they should in order for you to knock
'em down. Quite frankly, I don't know anybody who believes precisely this
way.
That's the problem with erecting strawmen to knock down. It might make
you
feel better, but it doesn't do much against the real opponent.
It appears as though you didn't read what I wrote, or comment on any
of the points in my original post. So you're in no position to talk
about strawmen and opponents until you show that you understand the
information contained in my post. If you have any problems with the
details of the post, then pick out any of the points mentioned in the
post and discuss it. Comments from sidelining backseat drivers don't
count.
Kenny, I'm a believer. You are not. If you want to debunk MY beliefs, you
have to first find out what they are. For you to make one general comment as
if they applied to all is illogical. It also doesn't work. NOBODY believes
precisely what YOU think they do. Or rather, if they do, they probably
aren't reading alt. atheism. ;-)
.
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| User: "Kenny Leong" |
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| Title: Re: The fatal flaw proof to be given to every christian |
10 Apr 2005 08:36:29 AM |
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"DianaC" <dianaiad@vernoyoudontizon.net> wrote in message news:<_CY5e.9152$ox3.837@trnddc03>...
"Kenny Leong" <kenny_tm_leong@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:29154d7c.0504091341.9401a6a@posting.google.com...
<snip to>
And does it feel good to argue with yourself? You realize that if even
ONE
Well....I presented a derivation from self-evident 'truths' based on
the christian god's fundamental attributes.
According to whom? Remember, as a nonbeliever YOU don't get to decide what
those attributes are. Only a believer can do that, and you have to deal with
what HE believes, not what you insist he should believe.
I'm playing on your own turf...your own ballpark. I didn't decide on
those attributes. Christians are taught these attributes by their
ministries. If you have a problem with what I said....then please go
ahead and answer the questions yourself. Do you believe that your god
is all-knowing (knows everything)? Do you believe that your god is a
perfect planner? And do you believe that your god is a perfect
designer? Please answer simply 'yes'... or 'no'.
If you refuse to answer these questions, it will mean that you're not
a real christian, because a real christian believes that god knows
everything, and is perfect at planning things, and is perfect at
designing things....to make a flawless product. So it's up to you to
show me whether you're a real christian or not.
person you hand this rant to has the tiniest bit of belief different from
the ones you ascribe to him, your entire argument is going to be thrown
away
as being terminally stupid, yes?
Actually....no, not at all. You didn't what I posted before your
prematurely made your baseless replies...right?
I read your post. My points are valid. Yours only apply to those Christians
who believe precisely what you think they should in order for you to knock
'em down. Quite frankly, I don't know anybody who believes precisely this
way.
Well...if you reckon that my points don't make sense to you, then
please go ahead. Tell us all whether you believe that your god knows
everything. And tell us if you believe that your god is perfect at
planning things...such as planning every single MECHANICAL
action/movement in his/her/its product before the product is even
made.
You do know what the words 'all-knowing' and 'planning' and
'mechanical action/movement' mean right DianaC? If you can't
comprehend these words, then I don't think that there's any point to
have a discussion.
That's the problem with erecting strawmen to knock down. It might make
you
feel better, but it doesn't do much against the real opponent.
It appears as though you didn't read what I wrote, or comment on any
of the points in my original post. So you're in no position to talk
about strawmen and opponents until you show that you understand the
information contained in my post. If you have any problems with the
details of the post, then pick out any of the points mentioned in the
post and discuss it. Comments from sidelining backseat drivers don't
count.
Kenny, I'm a believer. You are not. If you want to debunk MY beliefs, you
have to first find out what they are. For you to make one general comment as
if they applied to all is illogical. It also doesn't work. NOBODY believes
precisely what YOU think they do. Or rather, if they do, they probably
aren't reading alt. atheism. ;-)
DianaC.... I don't have to be a believer to show you where the fatal
root flaw in your christian teachings lie. If you don't believe what I
think, then please demonstrate to us that you have some understanding
in christian beliefs. Namely, please tell me whether you believe your
god knows everything, and whether you believe your god is a perfect
planner. And whether your god is a perfect designer. Then tell us
whether you believe that your god knew perfectly and planned perfectly
every single future MECHANICAL action for god's product BEFORE your
god created the product.
If you don't answer it, and simply come back with replies that
demonstrate your refusal to face this very simple and straight-forward
challenge, then it will mean that you either refuse to accept the
obvious fatal flaw in the christian teachings, or you ignore this
flaw, or you aren't a christian.
Kenny
.
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| User: "DianaC" |
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| Title: Re: The fatal flaw proof to be given to every christian |
10 Apr 2005 02:29:24 PM |
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"Kenny Leong" <kenny_tm_leong@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:29154d7c.0504100036.2ec5a0ff@posting.google.com...
"DianaC" <dianaiad@vernoyoudontizon.net> wrote in message
news:<_CY5e.9152$ox3.837@trnddc03>...
"Kenny Leong" <kenny_tm_leong@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:29154d7c.0504091341.9401a6a@posting.google.com...
<snip to>
And does it feel good to argue with yourself? You realize that if even
ONE
Well....I presented a derivation from self-evident 'truths' based on
the christian god's fundamental attributes.
According to whom? Remember, as a nonbeliever YOU don't get to decide
what
those attributes are. Only a believer can do that, and you have to deal
with
what HE believes, not what you insist he should believe.
I'm playing on your own turf...your own ballpark. I didn't decide on
those attributes. Christians are taught these attributes by their
ministries. If you have a problem with what I said....then please go
ahead and answer the questions yourself. Do you believe that your god
is all-knowing (knows everything)? Do you believe that your god is a
perfect planner? And do you believe that your god is a perfect
designer? Please answer simply 'yes'... or 'no'.
False dichotomy. One can believe these things and not come to the conclusion
you insist follows automatically. Or one can believe that 'knows everything'
means something less than 'every movement of every molecule'. Or it can mean
'knows everything as it is but not necessarily everything that will be if
someone choses to act one way rather than another". Or it could mean 'knows
everything that can be known given that free will exists".
Though there certainly are Christians who believe that God is the 'All
Knowing" deity at the level of molecular movement; these are called
hyper-Calvinists. THOSE Christians would answer yes and yes and yes....and
wouldn't be fazed by your conclusions, either.
If you refuse to answer these questions, it will mean that you're not
a real christian, because a real christian believes that god knows
everything, and is perfect at planning things, and is perfect at
designing things....to make a flawless product. So it's up to you to
show me whether you're a real christian or not.
Good grief, YOU are telling me what a 'real Christian' is? Who died and
made you God? Not happy with the false dichotomies you are setting up, you
are adding a true scott fallacy to the mix...
I'll tell YOU what a 'true Christian' is, and since I AM a Christian, I
certainly have more right to do that than you, who are not any sort of
Christian, do. A 'True" Christian is someone who thinks he is a Christian.
That's pretty much it. Of course, many, many Christians believe that a
'true' Christian is someone who thinks exactly as they do about Christ, but
I guess that means you just get to pick the true Christianity you feel the
most comfortable with. YOU, however, don't get to define it at all.
Of course, if you insist upon doing so anyway, then you are quite right.
According to your definition I am not a 'true' Christian. I'm a Christian,
none the less. What you think is irrelevant.
person you hand this rant to has the tiniest bit of belief different
from
the ones you ascribe to him, your entire argument is going to be
thrown
away
as being terminally stupid, yes?
Actually....no, not at all. You didn't what I posted before your
prematurely made your baseless replies...right?
I read your post. My points are valid. Yours only apply to those
Christians
who believe precisely what you think they should in order for you to
knock
'em down. Quite frankly, I don't know anybody who believes precisely this
way.
Well...if you reckon that my points don't make sense to you, then
please go ahead. Tell us all whether you believe that your god knows
everything. And tell us if you believe that your god is perfect at
planning things...such as planning every single MECHANICAL
action/movement in his/her/its product before the product is even
made.
Personally? I believe that He created the universe, and all the laws that
run it, and has pretty much let those laws work as they should. Sometimes we
get in the way of the workings of those laws. Rather like the poor slob who
is standing in just the wrong place when the sign falls off the building.
You do know what the words 'all-knowing' and 'planning' and
'mechanical action/movement' mean right DianaC? If you can't
comprehend these words, then I don't think that there's any point to
have a discussion.
You are quite right, there isn't any point in having a discussion with you.
I don't think it's fair of me to have a battle of wits with an unarmed man.
That's the problem with erecting strawmen to knock down. It might make
you
feel better, but it doesn't do much against the real opponent.
It appears as though you didn't read what I wrote, or comment on any
of the points in my original post. So you're in no position to talk
about strawmen and opponents until you show that you understand the
information contained in my post. If you have any problems with the
details of the post, then pick out any of the points mentioned in the
post and discuss it. Comments from sidelining backseat drivers don't
count.
Kenny, I'm a believer. You are not. If you want to debunk MY beliefs, you
have to first find out what they are. For you to make one general comment
as
if they applied to all is illogical. It also doesn't work. NOBODY
believes
precisely what YOU think they do. Or rather, if they do, they probably
aren't reading alt. atheism. ;-)
DianaC.... I don't have to be a believer to show you where the fatal
root flaw in your christian teachings lie. If you don't believe what I
think, then please demonstrate to us that you have some understanding
in christian beliefs. Namely, please tell me whether you believe your
god knows everything, and whether you believe your god is a perfect
planner. And whether your god is a perfect designer. Then tell us
whether you believe that your god knew perfectly and planned perfectly
every single future MECHANICAL action for god's product BEFORE your
god created the product.
If you don't answer it, and simply come back with replies that
demonstrate your refusal to face this very simple and straight-forward
challenge, then it will mean that you either refuse to accept the
obvious fatal flaw in the christian teachings, or you ignore this
flaw, or you aren't a christian.
Kenny, WHY should I defend beliefs I don't hold? And why should I allow you
to dictate what I should believe?
.
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| User: "Kenny Leong" |
|
| Title: Re: The fatal flaw proof to be given to every christian |
10 Apr 2005 09:05:30 PM |
|
|
"DianaC" <dianaiad@vernoyoudontizon.net> wrote in message news:<8La6e.8185$qO6.6929@trnddc05>...
"Kenny Leong" <kenny_tm_leong@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:29154d7c.0504100036.2ec5a0ff@posting.google.com...
"DianaC" <dianaiad@vernoyoudontizon.net> wrote in message
news:<_CY5e.9152$ox3.837@trnddc03>...
"Kenny Leong" <kenny_tm_leong@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:29154d7c.0504091341.9401a6a@posting.google.com...
<snip to>
And does it feel good to argue with yourself? You realize that if even
ONE
Well....I presented a derivation from self-evident 'truths' based on
the christian god's fundamental attributes.
According to whom? Remember, as a nonbeliever YOU don't get to decide
what
those attributes are. Only a believer can do that, and you have to deal
with
what HE believes, not what you insist he should believe.
I'm playing on your own turf...your own ballpark. I didn't decide on
those attributes. Christians are taught these attributes by their
ministries. If you have a problem with what I said....then please go
ahead and answer the questions yourself. Do you believe that your god
is all-knowing (knows everything)? Do you believe that your god is a
perfect planner? And do you believe that your god is a perfect
designer? Please answer simply 'yes'... or 'no'.
False dichotomy. One can believe these things and not come to the conclusion
you insist follows automatically. Or one can believe that 'knows everything'
What you're doing is called changing the meaning of a word. The
definition of all-knowing (ie omniscience) is clearly defined in the
dictionary. If you have a different definition for
all-knowing/omniscience, then maybe you can write to Webster etc and
tell them about it.
means something less than 'every movement of every molecule'. Or it can mean
'knows everything as it is but not necessarily everything that will be if
someone choses to act one way rather than another". Or it could mean 'knows
everything that can be known given that free will exists".
'KNOWS EVERYTHING...but *not* necessarily EVERYTHING that....'. That's
a fatal flaw in itself DianaC....you do realise that don't you? What
you're actually doing is trying to fight with your own mind to look
for a way out...to try to find a satisfactory answer that may
circumvent the fatal flaw. When there is no answer to circumvent it,
christians will do what Randy and dukey do....they give themselves
into thinking irrationally, and allow themselves to accept things that
aren't rational. They use irrational arguments to try explain their
way out of fatal problems...which doesn't work.
Though there certainly are Christians who believe that God is the 'All
Knowing" deity at the level of molecular movement; these are called
hyper-Calvinists. THOSE Christians would answer yes and yes and yes....and
wouldn't be fazed by your conclusions, either.
If you refuse to answer these questions, it will mean that you're not
a real christian, because a real christian believes that god knows
everything, and is perfect at planning things, and is perfect at
designing things....to make a flawless product. So it's up to you to
show me whether you're a real christian or not.
Good grief, YOU are telling me what a 'real Christian' is? Who died and
made you God? Not happy with the false dichotomies you are setting up, you
are adding a true scott fallacy to the mix...
I'll tell YOU what a 'true Christian' is, and since I AM a Christian, I
certainly have more right to do that than you, who are not any sort of
Christian, do. A 'True" Christian is someone who thinks he is a Christian.
That's pretty much it. Of course, many, many Christians believe that a
'true' Christian is someone who thinks exactly as they do about Christ, but
I guess that means you just get to pick the true Christianity you feel the
most comfortable with. YOU, however, don't get to define it at all.
Of course, if you insist upon doing so anyway, then you are quite right.
According to your definition I am not a 'true' Christian. I'm a Christian,
none the less. What you think is irrelevant.
person you hand this rant to has the tiniest bit of belief different
from
the ones you ascribe to him, your entire argument is going to be
thrown
away
as being terminally stupid, yes?
Actually....no, not at all. You didn't what I posted before your
prematurely made your baseless replies...right?
I read your post. My points are valid. Yours only apply to those
Christians
who believe precisely what you think they should in order for you to
knock
'em down. Quite frankly, I don't know anybody who believes precisely this
way.
Well...if you reckon that my points don't make sense to you, then
please go ahead. Tell us all whether you believe that your god knows
everything. And tell us if you believe that your god is perfect at
planning things...such as planning every single MECHANICAL
action/movement in his/her/its product before the product is even
made.
Personally? I believe that He created the universe, and all the laws that
run it, and has pretty much let those laws work as they should. Sometimes we
get in the way of the workings of those laws. Rather like the poor slob who
is standing in just the wrong place when the sign falls off the building.
You do know what the words 'all-knowing' and 'planning' and
'mechanical action/movement' mean right DianaC? If you can't
comprehend these words, then I don't think that there's any point to
have a discussion.
You are quite right, there isn't any point in having a discussion with you.
I don't think it's fair of me to have a battle of wits with an unarmed man.
That's the problem with erecting strawmen to knock down. It might make
you
feel better, but it doesn't do much against the real opponent.
It appears as though you didn't read what I wrote, or comment on any
of the points in my original post. So you're in no position to talk
about strawmen and opponents until you show that you understand the
information contained in my post. If you have any problems with the
details of the post, then pick out any of the points mentioned in the
post and discuss it. Comments from sidelining backseat drivers don't
count.
Kenny, I'm a believer. You are not. If you want to debunk MY beliefs, you
have to first find out what they are. For you to make one general comment
as
if they applied to all is illogical. It also doesn't work. NOBODY
believes
precisely what YOU think they do. Or rather, if they do, they probably
aren't reading alt. atheism. ;-)
DianaC.... I don't have to be a believer to show you where the fatal
root flaw in your christian teachings lie. If you don't believe what I
think, then please demonstrate to us that you have some understanding
in christian beliefs. Namely, please tell me whether you believe your
god knows everything, and whether you believe your god is a perfect
planner. And whether your god is a perfect designer. Then tell us
whether you believe that your god knew perfectly and planned perfectly
every single future MECHANICAL action for god's product BEFORE your
god created the product.
If you don't answer it, and simply come back with replies that
demonstrate your refusal to face this very simple and straight-forward
challenge, then it will mean that you either refuse to accept the
obvious fatal flaw in the christian teachings, or you ignore this
flaw, or you aren't a christian.
Kenny, WHY should I defend beliefs I don't hold? And why should I allow you
to dictate what I should believe?
DianaC...you don't have to 'allow' me to dictate your beliefs. I
didn't dictate your beliefs. The christian teachings dictate your
beliefs. If you don't believe it, then please answer my questions. You
just have to verify that you understand the basic christian teachings
about fundamental attributes of god. I merely asked you some simple
questions, but you never answer them. So what's the point of
discussions if you can't answer some very simple and straight forward
questions (in order to find out whether you believe it is true or not
that your god knew and planned perfectly every single future
mechanical action of his/her/its product BEFORE he/she/it made the
product)? And to set things straight, I asked you whether you believe,
in turn, if god knows everything (at ANY LEVEL), and if god is a
perfect planner, and if god is a perfect designer. It doesn't take
much effort at all to say 'yes' or 'no' to each of these
questions....right?
Also, make sure to comment on YOUR definition of all-knowing.
Remember, that all-knowing is all-knowing. It's not 'knows
EVERYTHING....but not necessarily EVERYTHING that....'
Kenny
.
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| User: "DianaC" |
|
| Title: Re: The fatal flaw proof to be given to every christian |
10 Apr 2005 10:38:56 PM |
|
|
"Kenny Leong" <kenny_tm_leong@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:29154d7c.0504101305.1098f292@posting.google.com...
"DianaC" <dianaiad@vernoyoudontizon.net> wrote in message
news:<8La6e.8185$qO6.6929@trnddc05>...
"Kenny Leong" <kenny_tm_leong@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:29154d7c.0504100036.2ec5a0ff@posting.google.com...
"DianaC" <dianaiad@vernoyoudontizon.net> wrote in message
news:<_CY5e.9152$ox3.837@trnddc03>...
"Kenny Leong" <kenny_tm_leong@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:29154d7c.0504091341.9401a6a@posting.google.com...
<snip to>
And does it feel good to argue with yourself? You realize that if
even
ONE
Well....I presented a derivation from self-evident 'truths' based on
the christian god's fundamental attributes.
According to whom? Remember, as a nonbeliever YOU don't get to decide
what
those attributes are. Only a believer can do that, and you have to
deal
with
what HE believes, not what you insist he should believe.
I'm playing on your own turf...your own ballpark. I didn't decide on
those attributes. Christians are taught these attributes by their
ministries. If you have a problem with what I said....then please go
ahead and answer the questions yourself. Do you believe that your god
is all-knowing (knows everything)? Do you believe that your god is a
perfect planner? And do you believe that your god is a perfect
designer? Please answer simply 'yes'... or 'no'.
False dichotomy. One can believe these things and not come to the
conclusion
you insist follows automatically. Or one can believe that 'knows
everything'
What you're doing is called changing the meaning of a word.
Really? According to the OED (that's Oxford English Dictionary)
"Omniscience" means the following: 1. a. As an attribute of God, or of a
person: the fact, state, or quality of having infinite knowledge. Also: the
fact, state, or quality of having, or claiming to have, great knowledge.
"Infinite" is defined as 1. a. Having no limit or end (real or assignable);
boundless, unlimited, endless; immeasurably great in extent, duration, or
other respect. Chiefly of God or His attributes; also of space, time, etc.,
in which it passes into the mathematical use.
According, then, to the dictionary all English speakers refer to as the sine
qua non of references, "omniscience" can be interpreted as knowing
everything down to what the molecule's dance is now and will be; however, it
can also be interpreted as something less than that; since one of the
doctrines of SOME (not all) Christians include the idea of free will, then
one must conclude that their idea of God is either something other than
infinitely omniscient, or that his knowledge of what is changes according to
the choices made by living creatures who can so choose. Or, it could be that
His omniscience includes knowing all possible outcomes of all possible
choices, but that the choices themselves are ours to make. Or, it could be
that He is omniscient to the level you claim we believe He is, and that we
are indeed all puppets with no choices at all. There are many different
views here, and you are presenting only one---and claiming that YOURS
automatically applies to all.
Sorry, but no.
The
definition of all-knowing (ie omniscience) is clearly defined in the
dictionary. If you have a different definition for
all-knowing/omniscience, then maybe you can write to Webster etc and
tell them about it.
Forget Webster. I went to Grandpa. Oxford.
means something less than 'every movement of every molecule'. Or it can
mean
'knows everything as it is but not necessarily everything that will be if
someone choses to act one way rather than another". Or it could mean
'knows
everything that can be known given that free will exists".
'KNOWS EVERYTHING...but *not* necessarily EVERYTHING that....'. That's
a fatal flaw in itself DianaC....you do realise that don't you?
And what 'fatal flaw' would that be?
What
you're actually doing is trying to fight with your own mind to look
for a way out...to try to find a satisfactory answer that may
circumvent the fatal flaw. When there is no answer to circumvent it,
christians will do what Randy and dukey do....they give themselves
into thinking irrationally, and allow themselves to accept things that
aren't rational. They use irrational arguments to try explain their
way out of fatal problems...which doesn't work.
Explain the fatal problem there would be with believing that a deity might
not know everything?
<snip to>
Kenny, WHY should I defend beliefs I don't hold? And why should I allow
you
to dictate what I should believe?
DianaC...you don't have to 'allow' me to dictate your beliefs.
Darn right. Yet I notice that's exactly what you are attempting to do; you
posit what 'all Christians' or 'all true Christians' must believe, and since
I claim to BE one of those, you are then dictating what I must believe in
order to qualify. I don't allow other Christians to do that, y'know. Give me
one good reason why I should accept your version?
I
didn't dictate your beliefs. The christian teachings dictate your
beliefs.
And here you are dictating what 'True Christians" must believe, and you are
serious. If you can't see the hilarity in that....
If you don't believe it, then please answer my questions. You
just have to verify that you understand the basic christian teachings
about fundamental attributes of god.
I understand what YOU think they are. I am simply pointing out that you are
not correct, not for all Christians. I'm.sure there are some who believe as
you insist they do, but by no means all do....
I merely asked you some simple
questions, but you never answer them.
Because you are asking 'yes/no' questions that can't be answered 'yes' or
'no'. They are not, in fact, simple.
So what's the point of
discussions if you can't answer some very simple and straight forward
questions (in order to find out whether you believe it is true or not
that your god knew and planned perfectly every single future
mechanical action of his/her/its product BEFORE he/she/it made the
product)?
Why is it important? And I answered that, actually. IT's not my fault you
weren't paying attention, or that the answer didn't follow your script.
And to set things straight, I asked you whether you believe,
in turn, if god knows everything (at ANY LEVEL), and if god is a
perfect planner, and if god is a perfect designer. It doesn't take
much effort at all to say 'yes' or 'no' to each of these
questions....right?
Also, make sure to comment on YOUR definition of all-knowing.
Remember, that all-knowing is all-knowing. It's not 'knows
EVERYTHING....but not necessarily EVERYTHING that....'
Kenny
.
|
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| User: "Kenny Leong" |
|
| Title: Re: The fatal flaw proof to be given to every christian |
11 Apr 2005 03:00:07 PM |
|
|
"DianaC" <dianaiad@vernoyoudontizon.net> wrote in message news:<4Wh6e.9761$9i7.3348@trnddc04>...
"Kenny Leong" <kenny_tm_leong@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:29154d7c.0504101305.1098f292@posting.google.com...
What you're doing is called changing the meaning of a word.
Really? According to the OED (that's Oxford English Dictionary)
"Omniscience" means the following: 1. a. As an attribute of God, or of a
person: the fact, state, or quality of having infinite knowledge. Also: the
fact, state, or quality of having, or claiming to have, great knowledge.
"Infinite" is defined as 1. a. Having no limit or end (real or assignable);
boundless, unlimited, endless; immeasurably great in extent, duration, or
other respect. Chiefly of God or His attributes; also of space, time, etc.,
in which it passes into the mathematical use.
I follow the infinite knowledge definition for omniscience. Unlimited
knowledge, which is the same as what christians will tell you. If you
don't believe me, then it's up to you to verify that for yourself. I'm
not even afraid, because I already know that's what they'll tell you.
That is, you ask your christian friends if god knew your every single
future mechanical action before you were made. They'll say 'yes'. The
area where they start to squirm and struggle, and begin to distort
their stories, become irrational and illogical, and play with meanings
of words...is when you ask them 'if god knew every single one of your
mechanical actions BEFORE you were created, then who was responsible
for your mechanical actions?...You? Or God?'. They want to say 'you',
but then they get reminded that they weren't yet made when god already
knew the actions...and thus they couldn't have decided since they
couldn't even move around, think, or even do anything. Then they
consider answering with 'god'...but they remember something about
free-will. They struggle because there's a fatal contradiction in the
works. So being completely clueless about the whole thing, they'll try
anything to come up with an answer to say that it was 'themselves'
that was responsible for their future mechanical actions.
Unfortunately, they can't get out of their own solution-less maze.
What you're doing now DianaC is attempting to come up with various
futile reasons to talk your way out of the dilemna. But it doesn't
work, because the only way out is to realise the fatal flaw in the
christian teachings.
According, then, to the dictionary all English speakers refer to as the sine
qua non of references, "omniscience" can be interpreted as knowing
everything down to what the molecule's dance is now and will be; however, it
can also be interpreted as something less than that; since one of the
doctrines of SOME (not all) Christians include the idea of free will, then
one must conclude that their idea of God is either something other than
infinitely omniscient, or that his knowledge of what is changes according to
the choices made by living creatures who can so choose. Or, it could be that
His omniscience includes knowing all possible outcomes of all possible
choices, but that the choices themselves are ours to make. Or, it could be
that He is omniscient to the level you claim we believe He is, and that we
are indeed all puppets with no choices at all. There are many different
views here, and you are presenting only one---and claiming that YOURS
automatically applies to all.
Ok DianaC.... what's your very own take on 'omniscience'? I claim that
the 'christians believe' that god knew every single one of their
mechanical actions before they (the christians) were created by god.
What's your very own 'christian' idea of omniscience?
Sorry, but no.
The
definition of all-knowing (ie omniscience) is clearly defined in the
dictionary. If you have a different definition for
all-knowing/omniscience, then maybe you can write to Webster etc and
tell them about it.
Forget Webster. I went to Grandpa. Oxford.
means something less than 'every movement of every molecule'. Or it can
mean
'knows everything as it is but not necessarily everything that will be if
someone choses to act one way rather than another". Or it could mean
'knows
everything that can be known given that free will exists".
'KNOWS EVERYTHING...but *not* necessarily EVERYTHING that....'. That's
a fatal flaw in itself DianaC....you do realise that don't you?
And what 'fatal flaw' would that be?
The fatal flaw is that you say that god IS 'X', but '*not
necessarily*' X. It's like saying, god is good, but not necessarily
good. Or god loves 'everything', but 'not necessarily everything'.
What
you're actually doing is trying to fight with your own mind to look
for a way out...to try to find a satisfactory answer that may
circumvent the fatal flaw. When there is no answer to circumvent it,
christians will do what Randy and dukey do....they give themselves
into thinking irrationally, and allow themselves to accept things that
aren't rational. They use irrational arguments to try explain their
way out of fatal problems...which doesn't work.
Explain the fatal problem there would be with believing that a deity might
not know everything?
I don't have a problem with a certain 'deity' not knowing everything.
I have a problem with a deity that is SAID to know everything
(infinitely), but is ALSO said to NOT KNOW everything.
<snip to>
Kenny, WHY should I defend beliefs I don't hold? And why should I allow
you
to dictate what I should believe?
You don't have to defend them. You just have to tell me what your OWN
definition of all-knowing (omniscience) is, and your own definition of
perfect planning is.
DianaC...you don't have to 'allow' me to dictate your beliefs.
Darn right. Yet I notice that's exactly what you are attempting to do; you
posit what 'all Christians' or 'all true Christians' must believe, and since
I claim to BE one of those, you are then dictating what I must believe in
order to qualify. I don't allow other Christians to do that, y'know. Give me
one good reason why I should accept your version?
Actually, I just want to find out what your definition of the words
omniscience is, and what your definition of perfect planning is. I
mean...your very own interpretation of what these attributes mean. I
want to find out to see if we can have an agreement in the
understanding of these attributes. Because I don't want you to keep
shifting the goal posts. So I have to get things straight from the
beginning...so that you can't budge anyore.
I
didn't dictate your beliefs. The christian teachings dictate your
beliefs.
And here you are dictating what 'True Christians" must believe, and you are
serious. If you can't see the hilarity in that....
It's interesting how you confuse 'dictate' with 'informing'. I'm
informing you of what they believe. But you choose to alter the real
circumstances by saying that I'm dictating.
If you don't believe it, then please answer my questions. You
just have to verify that you understand the basic christian teachings
about fundamental attributes of god.
I understand what YOU think they are. I am simply pointing out that you are
not correct, not for all Christians. I'm.sure there are some who believe as
you insist they do, but by no means all do....
You're very wrong to say that 'some' believe in the those things I had
discussed....regarding the fundamental attributes...all-knowing and
perfect planning/designing. I've surveyed hundreds of christians from
different places....and 100 percent of them...yes 100 percent....not
99 percent...but 100 percent BELIEVE that their god knows everything
(omniscient), and is a perfect planner. They believe that their god
knew every single thing that they would ever do. Their wheels fall off
when you ask them if god knew every one of their mechanical actions
'BEFORE' they were made.
The killer blow is this DianaC. Your god created the product without
the product's consent. Your god caused all it's own problems, because
none of these problems would have occured if your god didn't create
the product. Since the product had no choice in the beginning (ie no
choice to choose to exist or not), then the product has no obligation
to god anyway. But these other things are secondary. The important
thing is that christians are TAUGHT that their god knows everything,
and their god is a perfect planner.
I merely asked you some simple
questions, but you never answer them.
Because you are asking 'yes/no' questions that can't be answered 'yes' or
'no'. They are not, in fact, simple.
If you don't think they're simple, then please go ahead and tell me
what you 'think' that omniscience (and perfect planning) means. And I
don't mean for you to give a whole bunch of possible meanings. I
mean...what do you think it means?
So what's the point of
discussions if you can't answer some very simple and straight forward
questions (in order to find out whether you believe it is true or not
that your god knew and planned perfectly every single future
mechanical action of his/her/its product BEFORE he/she/it made the
product)?
Why is it important? And I answered that, actually. IT's not my fault you
weren't paying attention, or that the answer didn't follow your script.
Actually, it's not my fault that you don't seem to understand what
christians believe in general.
And to set things straight, I asked you whether you believe,
in turn, if god knows everything (at ANY LEVEL), and if god is a
perfect planner, and if god is a perfect designer. It doesn't take
much effort at all to say 'yes' or 'no' to each of these
questions....right?
Also, make sure to comment on YOUR definition of all-knowing.
Remember, that all-knowing is all-knowing. It's not 'knows
EVERYTHING....but not necessarily EVERYTHING that....'
Kenny
See....even in my last post, I specifically asked you to comment on
YOUR definition of 'all-knowing' (ie omniscience). You didn't do that.
Kenny
.
|
|
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| User: "DianaC" |
|
| Title: Re: The fatal flaw proof to be given to every christian |
11 Apr 2005 03:38:21 PM |
|
|
"Kenny Leong" <kenny_tm_leong@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:29154d7c.0504110700.6e571843@posting.google.com...
"DianaC" <dianaiad@vernoyoudontizon.net> wrote in message
news:<4Wh6e.9761$9i7.3348@trnddc04>...
"Kenny Leong" <kenny_tm_leong@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:29154d7c.0504101305.1098f292@posting.google.com...
What you're doing is called changing the meaning of a word.
Really? According to the OED (that's Oxford English Dictionary)
"Omniscience" means the following: 1. a. As an attribute of God, or of a
person: the fact, state, or quality of having infinite knowledge. Also:
the
fact, state, or quality of having, or claiming to have, great knowledge.
"Infinite" is defined as 1. a. Having no limit or end (real or
assignable);
boundless, unlimited, endless; immeasurably great in extent, duration, or
other respect. Chiefly of God or His attributes; also of space, time,
etc.,
in which it passes into the mathematical use.
I follow the infinite knowledge definition for omniscience. Unlimited
knowledge, which is the same as what christians will tell you.
WHICH Christians? You keep assuming that Christianity is this vast
monolithic group of people who agree with each other on every jot and tittle
of doctrine, when I have been trying (vainly, obviously) to point out that
it's not. In fact, the ONLY thing Christians have in common is a belief in
the teachings of Jesus Christ...and they disagree on what those are. There
are Christians who believe He is divine, Christians who don't. Christians
who believe Jesus was real, Christians who don't. Christians who believe in
pre-destination, Christians who believe in free will, Christians who believe
that God is a three-fold deity, Christians who believe that He is only one
and Jesus is a very mortal, and lesser, being. Christians who believe that
Jesus was the Messiah, (shoot, Muslims believe that..) and Christians who
don't care. Your problem is that you have invented a Christianity that does
exist, but is by no means representative of all Christianity--and you keep
insisting that it is.
If you
don't believe me, then it's up to you to verify that for yourself.
No, it's up to you, if you are going to criticise beliefs, to find out what
those beliefs actually are. Now, if you had talked about 'some Christians'
or 'those who believe that...", I couldn't quarrel with you. Much. However,
you keep insisting that you know what Christians believe better than the
Christians do, and that, m'friend, is ludicrous.
I'm
not even afraid, because I already know that's what they'll tell you.
Who is 'they'?
Remember, *I'M* a Christian too..
That is, you ask your christian friends if god knew your every single
future mechanical action before you were made. They'll say 'yes'.
Well, no. They won't, actually. Or rather, some will and most won't.
The
area where they start to squirm and struggle, and begin to distort
their stories, become irrational and illogical, and play with meanings
of words...is when you ask them 'if god knew every single one of your
mechanical actions BEFORE you were created, then who was responsible
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