Jim07D5 <Jim07D5@nospam.net> wrote in alt.atheism

"MOTHER NATURE" <avatar1.shyke@gmail.com> said:

Dear Elroy

I like the tone in which you present your challenge. But will you in
all honesty abide by the same rules that you are setting, i.e. a
serious discussion about intelligent design, and might
even be willing to change your mind about the idea?

It's unlikely that I'll change my mind, but it's possible. If you can
keep the religious text quoting to a bare minimum then what would be
appreciated. What will you be quoting from, the Koran? I've already
studied enough about Judaism and Christianity to reject them, so if
you're gonna use the Koran, I doubt you'd have better success.

I'll start the ball rolling by asking you some questions:

Does your idea of intelligent design apply not only to life, but also
to the workings of the universe?

By workings of the universe, I mean the movements of the planets and
moons and stars and galaxies and meteors and asteroids and all the
things out in space?

One of my main reasons for not believing that some god actually
created and controls those things in the universe is because of how
chaotic it seems to me. Comets and meteors and asteroids smashing
into planets and moons, stars going supernova, sending out deadly
cosmic rays. Galaxies actually collide as well as the solar system
being full of dangerous debris which could wipe out mankind like the
dinosaurs were wiped out. I don't think a god cares about people
anymore than it might have cared about the dinosaurs. I consider the
universe an uncaring place when it comes to trying to protect any life
forms that have arisen throughout time.

The latest hurricane Katrina is just another example of the chaos and
uncaring that I see on the part of some supposedly "intelligent"
creator that's supposed to love and care about its creations.

It's those things for starters that lead me to believe that some god
isn't actually out there in control of things, especially a god that
is supposed to care about humans and our planet.

If you want to answer those questions and keep going, let me know.

I am not an ID-ist but have the following to say in reply to your
comments. I don't think your comments count *against* intelligent
design -- although they would count t the designer that most ID-ists
really have in mind. I think you are aware of this.

Could be that MN is a Raelian, but I doubt it.

First, an intelligent designer can incorporate chaos into the design.
I have written simple little programs that, when run, generate graphic
images that "grow" or change to display order, starting with random
patterns and undergoing transitions that appear purposeless -- some
elements grow at the expense of others, some grow for a while and then
get creamed, etc. If the elements that is creamed is conscious, it
would think like you do. Further, what appears to be chaotic might
have order when examined by a being with the same degree of
intelligence and POV as the designer.

The designer was working on huge animal sizes when the dinosaurs ruled
the earth, then one day, thought to itself, "I'm bored with these huge
critters," and so he flipped a cosmic pinball flipper, sending an
asteroid to wipe them out and start over a little smaller this time?

"I'll leave the whales around in case I get bored later on..."

Secondly, the notion that the designer "cares" or "loves" any of the
products of its design is a notion that should be argued, after the
argument about intelligent design. But you might have a point, if
there are reasons to conclude that this universe *would* manifest the
love and caring of its designer if such existed, but does not manifest
love and caring.

Maybe not all ID believers think their designer/god cares about
humanity and individual people, but I think it's a safe bet that many
or even most of them do.