| Topic: |
Religions > Atheism |
| User: |
"Bill" |
| Date: |
17 Aug 2005 11:51:09 AM |
| Object: |
THE GRAND DECEPTION |
All religions are based on a foundation of deception and myth.
Take the Christian religion and its beliefs;
Their God always was and always will be. He - it created the Universe and
EVERYTHING in it.
He is all powerful and omnipotent. God is a trinity of the Father, the Son
and the Holy Ghost.
How do you have a father and no mother?
This trinity God created Adam and Eve and caused them to sin by having a
talking snake encourage them to eat a forbidden fruit. They did this and
they and their posterity (- us -) were doomed to eternal punishment for this
rather minor sin.
Why would any real God punish ALL of mankind for thousands of years because
of a rather minor infraction, by Adam and Eve, caused by Gods own created
temptation? The punishment seems ridiculously out of proportion to the
crime. And why punish all of mankind over thousands of years for this rather
minor infraction by Adam and Eve?
If a man is jailed for robbery or executed for murder do we similarly punish
all of his progeny from then on?
After man suffered on earth for over 100,000 years, God sent his son Jesus
to earth as a baby born of the virgin Mary in the freezing winter in an open
manger built for cattle.
Jesus then lived the life of a poor child and worked as a lowly carpenter
after his maturity. Then when he was in his thirties he announced that he
was the son part of the tripartite God and that he was sent to earth to
preach the rules and desires of this God. He only preached in a small area
of the Middle East that reached less than 5% of the worlds human population.
This was before the printing press and electronic communication so very few
people heard his message.
Why would the God creator of Universe, and everything in it, find it
necessary to announce his wishes so late in his creation and in such a crude
and inefficient manner? In addition, he never wrote ANY of his sermons and
preachments for the rest of the world and future generations! Further,
followers didn't write any documents about the contents of his preaching
until 70 years AFTER his death. Because these documents were hand written
and copied before the invention of the printing press. No originals exist.
We have no way of knowing the accuracy of the existent copies.
Much of the contents of these documents are inconsistent, contradictory and
appear to be more myth and legend than fact. This God has never confirmed in
any clear objective and verifiable fashion that these documents are an
accurate representation of his will.
Why would this all powerful God creator of the Universe communicate with his
flock in such a grossly inefficient, ineffective and confusing manner?
Man is capable of communicating with the whole world via TV, Radio, and
Phone. There are thousands of God beliefs. Why does the all powerful real
God not have an efficient communication system to inform everyone in the
world of his wishes and commands and show who is the real God and which are
fakes? God refuses or is incapable of speaking directly to his subjects!?
This all powerful God creator, punished all of mankind over a period of more
than 100,000 years but then felt it necessary to have God the son die a
cruel and sadistic death on a cross with two criminals to save mankind from
the sins he himself created ( or at least allowed to occur). Why didn't he
just announce from his heaven that mankind was being forgiven for these sins
and skip the blood, gore and theatricals.
In addition, the evidence is that mankind is no better off after Jesus'
arrival and death than before. What did he save us from?
He permits a world where totally INNOCENT CHILDREN are dead at birth or are
born with all sorts of painful, incapacitating and crippling handicaps. His
subjects are born with a wide range of intelligence ( or lack of brains )
and capacities to either live a reasonably enjoyable life are suffer
throughout their lives. Over two million children die horrible deaths from
starvation and diseases every year. Why did he create and maintain a world
like this? Why does this all loving omnipotent God permit this punishment of
totally INNOCENT CHILDREN? Is he sadistic and enjoys the suffering of his
subjects?
Millions of people are born in countries with relentless and life long
poverty, disease and hunger. Millions are born in countries that do not
provide knowledge of the so called "true God" so they can be saved. Millions
live brutal, painful and fortunately very short lives.
All of his human creations suffer the diseases, pain and suffering of old
age and frequently very painful deaths.
He creates a world that kills millions of both innocent and sinful people
indiscriminately via floods, tsunamis, hurricanes, volcanic eruptions, wars,
tornadoes, earth quakes, fires, train wrecks, thousands of diseases,
pestilence's and other natural disasters. He creates a world with animals
that must brutally kill other animals in order to eat and survive.
If this God is our all powerful loving creator, why does he create and
permit this gross indiscriminant suffering?
Those that dance to his tune get an eternity of boredom in his heaven. The
rest suffer perpetual punishment in hell.
This God either does not exist or is an extremely cruel and heartless SOB.
The evidence is rather strong that God did not create man, but quite the
contrary, that man created Gods.
.
|
|
| User: "JTEM" |
|
| Title: Re: THE GRAND DECEPTION |
19 Aug 2005 12:24:50 AM |
|
|
"Bill" <wmech@bellsouth.net> wrote
How do you have a father and no mother?
Please go away. Thanks in advance.
.
|
|
|
|
| User: "Pastor Frank" |
|
| Title: Re: THE GRAND DECEPTION |
18 Aug 2005 09:24:13 AM |
|
|
"Bill" <wmech@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
news:tMKMe.21282$Rm3.1703@bignews4.bellsouth.net...
Why would this all powerful God creator of the Universe communicate with
his flock in such a grossly inefficient, ineffective and confusing
manner?
Because our Christian "God is love" (1 John 4:8,16) become fully
manifested in Jesus Christ on the cross of Calvary. That is where God
communicated His love for all of us, freeing us from the consequences of our
sins by taking those sins upon Himself.
There is no "more efficient" way to communicate love, that paying with
one's life for the debt of others. I can assure you Bill, that there will
never be a time, when love can be commanded nor demanded nor can be expected
for any reason whatever. For love is the evidence of God living in us, (see
1 John 4:16 below) as hate is the evidence of the presence of Satan, the
adversary.
Pastor Frank
"GOD" THE CHRISTIAN MEANING OF THE WORD ACCORDING TO SCRIPTURE:
Jesus in Jn:4:24: "GOD IS A SPIRIT, and they that worship him must
worship him in spirit and in truth."
Jesus in John 14:6-10: Jesus saith unto him: "I am the way, the truth,
and the life; no man cometh unto the Father, but by me. If ye had known me,
ye should have known my Father also, and from henceforth YE KNOW HIM AND
HAVE SEEN HIM."
Philip saith unto him: "Lord, show us the Father, and it sufficeth us."
Jesus saith unto him: "Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast
thou not known me, Philip? HE THAT HAS SEEN ME HATH SEEN THE FATHER;
and how sayest thou then: Show us the Father? Believest thou not that I am
in the Father, and the Father in me? The words that I speak unto you I speak
not of myself, but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works."
Jesus in John 12:44-46`Then Jesus cried out and said, "He who believes
in me, believes not in me but in Him who sent me. And he who sees me sees
Him who sent Me. I have come as a light into the world, that whoever
believes in me should not abide in darkness."
Jesus in Lk 17:20-21: And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when
the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said: "The kingdom of
God cometh not with observation. Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo
there! For, behold, the kingdom of GOD IS WITHIN YOU."
1Jn:4:8: He that loveth not, knoweth not God; for GOD IS LOVE.
1Jn:4:16: And we have known and believed the love that God hath to us.
GOD IS LOVE; and he that dwelleth in love dwelleth in God, and God in him.
Acts:17:28: For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain
also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring.
.
|
|
|
| User: "Jim07D5" |
|
| Title: Re: THE GRAND DECEPTION |
18 Aug 2005 01:16:24 PM |
|
|
"Pastor Frank" <PastorFrank@christfirst.org> said:
"Bill" <wmech@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
news:tMKMe.21282$Rm3.1703@bignews4.bellsouth.net...
Why would this all powerful God creator of the Universe communicate with
his flock in such a grossly inefficient, ineffective and confusing
manner?
Because our Christian "God is love" (1 John 4:8,16) become fully
manifested in Jesus Christ on the cross of Calvary. That is where God
communicated His love for all of us, freeing us from the consequences of our
sins by taking those sins upon Himself.
The efficiency, effectiveness and clarity is 100%, for each individual
who is convinced of the truth of Christianity, but this is misleading.
The measure that is most obvious is the percentage of the world's
population that believes John 3:16 is true. (This is not likely to be
as high as the percentage "of people who have at least a minimal level
of self-identification as adherents of the religion", as at:
http://www.adherents.com/Religions_By_Adherents.html.)
As such, the efficiency, effectiveness and clarity score for
Christianity is not more than 33%, and probably quite a bit lower.
--- Jim07D5
.
|
|
|
| User: "Carl Rooker" |
|
| Title: Re: THE GRAND DECEPTION |
21 Aug 2005 05:29:03 PM |
|
|
"Jim07D5" <Jim07D5@nospam.net> wrote in message
news:o7j9g19b0ptk9bgkh5tts6r0tst495ms0n@4ax.com...
"Pastor Frank" <PastorFrank@christfirst.org> said:
"Bill" <wmech@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
news:tMKMe.21282$Rm3.1703@bignews4.bellsouth.net...
Why would this all powerful God creator of the Universe communicate
with
his flock in such a grossly inefficient, ineffective and confusing
manner?
Because our Christian "God is love" (1 John 4:8,16) become fully
manifested in Jesus Christ on the cross of Calvary. That is where God
communicated His love for all of us, freeing us from the consequences of
our
sins by taking those sins upon Himself.
The efficiency, effectiveness and clarity is 100%, for each individual
who is convinced of the truth of Christianity, but this is misleading.
The measure that is most obvious is the percentage of the world's
population that believes John 3:16 is true. (This is not likely to be
as high as the percentage "of people who have at least a minimal level
of self-identification as adherents of the religion", as at:
http://www.adherents.com/Religions_By_Adherents.html.)
As such, the efficiency, effectiveness and clarity score for
Christianity is not more than 33%, and probably quite a bit lower.
--- Jim07D5
It is not the clairty of the message that is at issue here, just how many
people listen to it, and believe it.
The message is very clear, it is just that most ignor it. Some go as far as
to twist it.
God bless
Carl
.
|
|
|
| User: "thomas p" |
|
| Title: Re: THE GRAND DECEPTION |
22 Aug 2005 03:19:40 AM |
|
|
On Sun, 21 Aug 2005 18:29:03 -0400, "Carl Rooker" <rookerc@dnx.net>
wrote:
"Jim07D5" <Jim07D5@nospam.net> wrote in message
news:o7j9g19b0ptk9bgkh5tts6r0tst495ms0n@4ax.com...
"Pastor Frank" <PastorFrank@christfirst.org> said:
"Bill" <wmech@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
news:tMKMe.21282$Rm3.1703@bignews4.bellsouth.net...
Why would this all powerful God creator of the Universe communicate
with
his flock in such a grossly inefficient, ineffective and confusing
manner?
Because our Christian "God is love" (1 John 4:8,16) become fully
manifested in Jesus Christ on the cross of Calvary. That is where God
communicated His love for all of us, freeing us from the consequences of
our
sins by taking those sins upon Himself.
The efficiency, effectiveness and clarity is 100%, for each individual
who is convinced of the truth of Christianity, but this is misleading.
The measure that is most obvious is the percentage of the world's
population that believes John 3:16 is true. (This is not likely to be
as high as the percentage "of people who have at least a minimal level
of self-identification as adherents of the religion", as at:
http://www.adherents.com/Religions_By_Adherents.html.)
As such, the efficiency, effectiveness and clarity score for
Christianity is not more than 33%, and probably quite a bit lower.
--- Jim07D5
It is not the clairty of the message that is at issue here, just how many
people listen to it, and believe it.
No, the issue is why should anyone believe it.
The message is very clear, it is just that most ignor it. Some go as far as
to twist it.
Is there an objective reason why it should not be ignored?
Thomas P.
"Life must be lived forwards but understood backwards"
(Kierkegaard)
.
|
|
|
|
|
| User: "Pastor Frank" |
|
| Title: Re: THE GRAND DECEPTION |
19 Aug 2005 02:22:05 PM |
|
|
"Jim07D5" <Jim07D5@nospam.net> wrote in message
news:o7j9g19b0ptk9bgkh5tts6r0tst495ms0n@4ax.com...
"Pastor Frank" <PastorFrank@christfirst.org> said:
"Bill" <wmech@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
news:tMKMe.21282$Rm3.1703@bignews4.bellsouth.net...
Why would this all powerful God creator of the Universe communicate with
his flock in such a grossly inefficient, ineffective and confusing
manner?
Because our Christian "God is love" (1 John 4:8,16) become fully
manifested in Jesus Christ on the cross of Calvary. That is where God
communicated His love for all of us, freeing us from the consequences of
our
sins by taking those sins upon Himself.
The efficiency, effectiveness and clarity is 100%, for each individual
who is convinced of the truth of Christianity, but this is misleading.
The measure that is most obvious is the percentage of the world's
population that believes John 3:16 is true. (This is not likely to be
as high as the percentage "of people who have at least a minimal level
of self-identification as adherents of the religion", as at:
http://www.adherents.com/Religions_By_Adherents.html.)
As such, the efficiency, effectiveness and clarity score for
Christianity is not more than 33%, and probably quite a bit lower.
--- Jim07D5
What? And have no need for missionaries, nor competitive belief systems?
Sorry, but the "Giant Talking Face In The Sky" so many atheists demand to
see, is a mere silly fantasy. You don't shove love down people's throats, by
making love just another hum-drum indisputable fact among many, and expect
reciprocation.
.
|
|
|
|
|
|
| User: "Read The Bible" |
|
| Title: Re: THE GRAND DECEPTION |
17 Aug 2005 11:57:44 PM |
|
|
THE GRAND DECEPTION
Evil men and seducers shall wax worse and worse, deceiving, and being
deceived.
For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that
Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an
antichrist.
And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the
dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels, And prevailed not;
neither was their place found any more in heaven. And the great dragon
was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which
deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his
angels were cast out with him.
And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume
with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of
his coming: Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with
all power and signs and lying wonders, And with all deceivableness of
unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love
of the truth, that they might be saved.
For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew
great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall
deceive the very elect.
I beheld another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns
like a lamb, and he spake as a dragon. And he exerciseth all the power
of the first beast before him, and causeth the earth and them which
dwell therein to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was
healed. And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down
from heaven on the earth in the sight of men, And deceiveth them that
dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to
do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth,
that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a
sword, and did live. And he had power to give life unto the image of
the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause
that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be
killed. And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free
and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads:
And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the
name of the beast, or the number of his name. Here is wisdom. Let him
that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the
number of a man; and his number is Six hundred threescore and six.
And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the
dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the
false prophet. For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles,
which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to
gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.
And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies,
gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and
against his army. And the beast was taken, and with him the false
prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them
that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his
image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with
brimstone. And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat
upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the
fowls were filled with their flesh. And I saw an angel come down from
heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his
hand. And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the
Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years, And cast him into the
bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he
should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be
fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.
And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of
his prison, And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the
four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to
battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea. And they went up
on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints
about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven,
and devoured them. And the devil that deceived them was cast into the
lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are,
and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
Bill wrote:
God's own created temptation
Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot
be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man: But every man is
tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed. Then when
lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is
finished, bringeth forth death.
There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but
God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye
are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that
ye may be able to bear it.
All have sinned, and come short of the glory of God.
Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin;
and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned.
Why would this all powerful God creator of the Universe
communicate with his flock in such a grossly inefficient,
ineffective and confusing manner?
The holy scriptures are able to make thee wise unto salvation through
faith which is in Christ Jesus. All scripture is given by inspiration
of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction,
for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect,
throughly furnished unto all good works.
The word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged
sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of
the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents
of the heart.
Receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your
souls.
Why didn't he just announce from his heaven that mankind was
being forgiven for these sins and skip the blood, gore and
theatricals.
For the life of the flesh is in the blood: and I have given it to you
upon the altar to make an atonement for your souls: for it is the blood
that maketh an atonement for the soul.
And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without
shedding of blood is no remission. It was therefore necessary that the
patterns of things in the heavens should be purified with these; but
the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these. For
Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are
the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the
presence of God for us: Nor yet that he should offer himself often, as
the high priest entereth into the holy place every year with blood of
others; For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of
the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put
away sin by the sacrifice of himself. And as it is appointed unto men
once to die, but after this the judgment: So Christ was once offered to
bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear
the second time without sin unto salvation.
For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh,
God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin,
condemned sin in the flesh.
Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of
sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the
beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he
might destroy the works of the devil.
Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he
also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he
might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil; And
deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject
to bondage. For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he
took on him the seed of Abraham. Wherefore in all things it behoved him
to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and
faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make
reconciliation for the sins of the people. For in that he himself hath
suffered being tempted, he is able to succour them that are tempted.
What did he save us from?
He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that
believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth
on him.
And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into
the lake of fire.
an eternity of boredom in his heaven.
Thou wilt shew me the path of life: in thy presence is fulness of joy;
at thy right hand there are pleasures for evermore.
This God either does not exist or is an extremely cruel
and heartless SOB.
God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners,
Christ died for us.
Jesus loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood.
The evidence is rather strong that God did not create man,
but quite the contrary, that man created Gods.
The wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and
unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness; Because
that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed
it unto them. For the invisible things of him from the creation of the
world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made,
even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God,
neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their
foolish heart was darkened. Professing themselves to be wise, they
became fools, And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an
image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted
beasts, and creeping things. Wherefore God also gave them up to
uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their
own bodies between themselves: Who changed the truth of God into a lie,
and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is
blessed for ever. Amen. For this cause God gave them up unto vile
affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that
which is against nature: And likewise also the men, leaving the natural
use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men
working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that
recompence of their error which was meet. And even as they did not like
to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate
mind, to do those things which are not convenient; Being filled with
all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness,
maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity;
whisperers, Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters,
inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents, Without
understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable,
unmerciful: Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit
such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have
pleasure in them that do them.
What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we have before
proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin.
Say unto them, As I live, saith the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the
death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live:
turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die?
For I have no pleasure in the death of him that dieth, saith the Lord
GOD: wherefore turn yourselves, and live ye.
.
|
|
|
|
| User: "Richo" |
|
| Title: Re: THE GRAND DECEPTION |
22 Aug 2005 12:45:06 AM |
|
|
Bill wrote:
All religions are based on a foundation of deception and myth.
All generalizations are false.
Take the Christian religion and its beliefs;
Nah. Not interested.
I like Horus the avenger - now there's a god you can respect.
Mark.
.
|
|
|
| User: "The other Donald" |
|
| Title: Re: THE GRAND DECEPTION |
22 Aug 2005 01:20:15 AM |
|
|
"Richo" <m.richardson@utas.edu.au> wrote in message
news:1124689506.791936.40290@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
Bill wrote:
All religions are based on a foundation of deception and myth.
All generalizations are false.
Take the Christian religion and its beliefs;
Nah. Not interested.
I like Horus the avenger - now there's a god you can respect.
Vastly inferior to the Flying Spaghetti Monster....and my afterlife is going
to kick *****!
Read it and weap, O ye of weakling gods:
Benefits of conversion
Henderson initially gave the following reasons for converting to Flying
Spaghetti Monsterism:
a.. Like the noodles they worship, Flying Spaghetti Monsterists have
flimsy moral standards.
b.. Every Friday is a religious holiday.
c.. Promise of a stripper factory and a beer volcano in Heaven.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flying_Spaghetti_Monster
--
-Donald in Austin
AA #2104
Apatriot #22
Atheist FF/EMT
.....and ordained minister
Stork pin recipient: May 1, 2003 -Madelyn
.
|
|
|
| User: "Richo" |
|
| Title: Re: THE GRAND DECEPTION |
22 Aug 2005 07:33:45 PM |
|
|
The other Donald wrote:
"Richo" <m.richardson@utas.edu.au> wrote in message
news:1124689506.791936.40290@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
Bill wrote:
All religions are based on a foundation of deception and myth.
All generalizations are false.
Take the Christian religion and its beliefs;
Nah. Not interested.
I like Horus the avenger - now there's a god you can respect.
Vastly inferior to the Flying Spaghetti Monster....and my afterlife is going
to kick *****!
Read it and weap, O ye of weakling gods:
Benefits of conversion
Henderson initially gave the following reasons for converting to Flying
Spaghetti Monsterism:
a.. Like the noodles they worship, Flying Spaghetti Monsterists have
flimsy moral standards.
b.. Every Friday is a religious holiday.
c.. Promise of a stripper factory and a beer volcano in Heaven.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flying_Spaghetti_Monster
I admit I am tempted.
Oh what the hell! Sign me up.
I am sure i have a pirates costume somewhere here...
Mark.
.
|
|
|
| User: "Michael Gray" |
|
| Title: Re: THE GRAND DECEPTION |
23 Aug 2005 05:13:57 AM |
|
|
On 22 Aug 2005 17:33:45 -0700, "Richo" <m.richardson@utas.edu.au>
wrote:
The other Donald wrote:
"Richo" <m.richardson@utas.edu.au> wrote in message
news:1124689506.791936.40290@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
Bill wrote:
All religions are based on a foundation of deception and myth.
All generalizations are false.
Take the Christian religion and its beliefs;
Nah. Not interested.
I like Horus the avenger - now there's a god you can respect.
Vastly inferior to the Flying Spaghetti Monster....and my afterlife is going
to kick *****!
Read it and weap, O ye of weakling gods:
Benefits of conversion
Henderson initially gave the following reasons for converting to Flying
Spaghetti Monsterism:
a.. Like the noodles they worship, Flying Spaghetti Monsterists have
flimsy moral standards.
b.. Every Friday is a religious holiday.
c.. Promise of a stripper factory and a beer volcano in Heaven.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flying_Spaghetti_Monster
I admit I am tempted.
Oh what the hell! Sign me up.
I am sure i have a pirates costume somewhere here...
Mark.
Is there a heirarchy of holy orders?
How can I become an ordained Pasta Pastor?
or, failing that, maybe a:
Ravioli Reverend,
Cavatelli Cardinal,
Penne Pontiff,
Campanelle Canon,
Spaghetti Saint,
Fettucini Father,
Bucatini Bishop,
Gemelli Guru,
Vermicelli Vicar,
Rigatoni Rabbi,
Macaroni Monsignor,
Fusilli Father,
Mafalde Monk,
Durum Dean,
Anelli Ayatollah,
Couscous Christ,
Maltagliati Missionary,
Garganelli God,
Elicoidali Evangelist,
Pastina Parson,
Cannelloni Caliph,
Paccheri Preacher,
Linguini Lay Preacher,
Perciatelli Primate,
Funghini Faqih,
Lasagne Lama,
Gnocchi Gnostic,
Spiralini Sister,
Sagnarelli Saviour,
Ditali Deaconess,
Pappardelle Padre,
Reginette Rector,
Alphabetti Archbishop?
And do you get fly-by points?
.
|
|
|
| User: "Apostate" |
|
| Title: Re: THE GRAND DECEPTION |
23 Aug 2005 11:49:00 AM |
|
|
On Tue, 23 Aug 2005 19:43:57 +0930, Michael Gray <fleetg@newsguy.spam.com> wrote:
On 22 Aug 2005 17:33:45 -0700, "Richo" <m.richardson@utas.edu.au>
wrote:
The other Donald wrote:
"Richo" <m.richardson@utas.edu.au> wrote in message
news:1124689506.791936.40290@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
Bill wrote:
All religions are based on a foundation of deception and myth.
All generalizations are false.
Take the Christian religion and its beliefs;
Nah. Not interested.
I like Horus the avenger - now there's a god you can respect.
Vastly inferior to the Flying Spaghetti Monster....and my afterlife is going
to kick *****!
Read it and weap, O ye of weakling gods:
Benefits of conversion
Henderson initially gave the following reasons for converting to Flying
Spaghetti Monsterism:
a.. Like the noodles they worship, Flying Spaghetti Monsterists have
flimsy moral standards.
b.. Every Friday is a religious holiday.
c.. Promise of a stripper factory and a beer volcano in Heaven.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flying_Spaghetti_Monster
I admit I am tempted.
Oh what the hell! Sign me up.
I am sure i have a pirates costume somewhere here...
Mark.
Is there a heirarchy of holy orders?
How can I become an ordained Pasta Pastor?
or, failing that, maybe a:
Ravioli Reverend,
Cavatelli Cardinal,
Penne Pontiff,
Campanelle Canon,
Spaghetti Saint,
Fettucini Father,
Bucatini Bishop,
Gemelli Guru,
Vermicelli Vicar,
Rigatoni Rabbi,
Macaroni Monsignor,
Fusilli Father,
Mafalde Monk,
Durum Dean,
Anelli Ayatollah,
Couscous Christ,
Maltagliati Missionary,
Garganelli God,
Elicoidali Evangelist,
Pastina Parson,
Cannelloni Caliph,
Paccheri Preacher,
Linguini Lay Preacher,
Perciatelli Primate,
Funghini Faqih,
Lasagne Lama,
Gnocchi Gnostic,
Spiralini Sister,
Sagnarelli Saviour,
Ditali Deaconess,
Pappardelle Padre,
Reginette Rector,
Alphabetti Archbishop?
And do you get fly-by points?
Holy *****! Where did you find those pasta varieties?
I've been a pasta addict all my life, but haven't heard of about half of them.
--
/Apostate
alt.atheist #1931 I've found it!
BAAWA Knife AND SMASHer
EAC Supernumerary Deputy Director, Department of Redundancy Department
plonked by Lani_girl, first post; Billions Served!
I doubt, therefore I might be.
e-mail to lower-case only
.
|
|
|
| User: "Michael Gray" |
|
| Title: Re: THE GRAND DECEPTION |
23 Aug 2005 09:30:22 PM |
|
|
On Tue, 23 Aug 2005 12:49:00 -0400, Apostate
<apostate.invalid.still@yeehaw.org> wrote:
On Tue, 23 Aug 2005 19:43:57 +0930, Michael Gray <fleetg@newsguy.spam.com> wrote:
On 22 Aug 2005 17:33:45 -0700, "Richo" <m.richardson@utas.edu.au>
wrote:
The other Donald wrote:
"Richo" <m.richardson@utas.edu.au> wrote in message
news:1124689506.791936.40290@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
Bill wrote:
All religions are based on a foundation of deception and myth.
All generalizations are false.
Take the Christian religion and its beliefs;
Nah. Not interested.
I like Horus the avenger - now there's a god you can respect.
Vastly inferior to the Flying Spaghetti Monster....and my afterlife is going
to kick *****!
Read it and weap, O ye of weakling gods:
Benefits of conversion
Henderson initially gave the following reasons for converting to Flying
Spaghetti Monsterism:
a.. Like the noodles they worship, Flying Spaghetti Monsterists have
flimsy moral standards.
b.. Every Friday is a religious holiday.
c.. Promise of a stripper factory and a beer volcano in Heaven.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flying_Spaghetti_Monster
I admit I am tempted.
Oh what the hell! Sign me up.
I am sure i have a pirates costume somewhere here...
Mark.
Is there a heirarchy of holy orders?
How can I become an ordained Pasta Pastor?
or, failing that, maybe a:
Ravioli Reverend,
Cavatelli Cardinal,
Penne Pontiff,
Campanelle Canon,
Spaghetti Saint,
Fettucini Father,
Bucatini Bishop,
Gemelli Guru,
Vermicelli Vicar,
Rigatoni Rabbi,
Macaroni Monsignor,
Fusilli Father,
Mafalde Monk,
Durum Dean,
Anelli Ayatollah,
Couscous Christ,
Maltagliati Missionary,
Garganelli God,
Elicoidali Evangelist,
Pastina Parson,
Cannelloni Caliph,
Paccheri Preacher,
Linguini Lay Preacher,
Perciatelli Primate,
Funghini Faqih,
Lasagne Lama,
Gnocchi Gnostic,
Spiralini Sister,
Sagnarelli Saviour,
Ditali Deaconess,
Pappardelle Padre,
Reginette Rector,
Alphabetti Archbishop?
And do you get fly-by points?
Holy *****! Where did you find those pasta varieties?
I've been a pasta addict all my life, but haven't heard of about half of them.
And they are only the ones for which I could find suitable holy-order
alliteration.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pasta#Pasta_varieties
I suppose that rather than wear a "dog collar", a bib is preferred?
Black, with a skull-and-crossbones?
.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
| User: "fred" |
|
| Title: Re: THE GRAND DECEPTION |
17 Aug 2005 01:03:13 PM |
|
|
Bill wrote:
All religions are based on a foundation of deception and myth.
With respect to starting your post with an assertion like that, why do
you even bother to post?
Take the Christian religion and its beliefs;
Their God always was and always will be. He - it created the Universe and
EVERYTHING in it.
<snipped for brevity>
.
|
|
|
| User: "Pastor Frank" |
|
| Title: Re: THE GRAND DECEPTION |
18 Aug 2005 09:34:10 AM |
|
|
"fred" <clarma1@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1124301793.945766.30840@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com...
Bill wrote:
All religions are based on a foundation of deception and myth.
With respect to starting your post with an assertion like that, why do
you even bother to post?
Bill wants to be an atheist super-troll in our pristine Christian
groups. news:alt.atheism hands out honorific tiles to the most persistent of
their trolls. They bestow the title: Twit of the year, to the most
persistent Christian poster in their atheist NGs.
.
|
|
|
|
| User: "Bill" |
|
| Title: Re: THE GRAND DECEPTION |
17 Aug 2005 01:13:38 PM |
|
|
It is common and normal to substantiate the accuracy or reasonableness of an
assertion.
Is this troubling you?
"fred" <clarma1@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1124301793.945766.30840@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com...
Bill wrote:
All religions are based on a foundation of deception and myth.
With respect to starting your post with an assertion like that, why do
you even bother to post?
Take the Christian religion and its beliefs;
Their God always was and always will be. He - it created the Universe and
EVERYTHING in it.
<snipped for brevity>
.
|
|
|
| User: "" |
|
| Title: Re: THE GRAND DECEPTION |
17 Aug 2005 02:51:17 PM |
|
|
Bill, Bill, bIll, <sigh>
You start with a statement which is not proven. There are many
religions not all based on deception or myth.
You may perceive the religion of Christianity to be based on Myth but
that is not the viewpoint of many practising Christians. (if they
practise enough they will eventually get it right)
God (referring here to Yaweh the Christian God the father) does NOT
love everyone. It is quite clear in sections of the bible that he LIKES
his chosen people and ONLY when they do what they are told. Don't do
what you are told and the body count starts going way way up.
Adam and Eve had free will. FREE WILL , remember it, it is tha answer
to many many questions.
The serpent was either Satan or a minion of Satan. At this point in the
story the Angels had rebelled, civil war in heaven and Satan (Lucifer)
was demoted to Chief of Hell and its Legions.
So Adam and Eve were tempted and made the wrong choice. Instead of
saying, 'well God said NO, so leave it alone' they said "Yum, Yum,
this is tasty, and buy the way, you look real good naked" , things went
downhill from there.
Man did not exist on Earth for 100,000 years. The correct number is
closer to 8,500.
You have not heard of 1-800-555-GodSpeaks.
quote:Why does this all loving omnipotent God permit this punishment of
totally INNOCENT CHILDREN? Is he sadistic and enjoys the suffering of
his
subjects? :endquote
Christianity teaches that man is born with the burden of Original Sin.
When you are baptised that sin is forgiven. Not baptised, no
forgiveness, not innocent.
God speaks to ALL his followers. Not via the Public address system or a
radio chat show , but in the small internal voice of concience. If you
know that something is wrong but you choose to do it of your own FREE
WILL you have ignored the voice of GOD. (told you free will would come
and bite you on the a**)
Here is an explanation of the Universe that you might crae to explore.
(this is not original but I forget the source)
In the beginning was GOD.
Everything was GOD , there was nothing that was not GOD.
God was bored.
God split himself into a myriad of parts that he might have friends.
.
|
|
|
| User: "Andrew W" |
|
| Title: Re: THE GRAND DECEPTION |
18 Aug 2005 04:53:03 AM |
|
|
<marks542004@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1124308277.713319.79870@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
Bill, Bill, bIll, <sigh>
You start with a statement which is not proven. There are many
religions not all based on deception or myth.
You may perceive the religion of Christianity to be based on Myth but
that is not the viewpoint of many practising Christians. (if they
practise enough they will eventually get it right)
God (referring here to Yaweh the Christian God the father) does NOT
love everyone. It is quite clear in sections of the bible that he LIKES
his chosen people and ONLY when they do what they are told. Don't do
what you are told and the body count starts going way way up.
Adam and Eve had free will. FREE WILL , remember it, it is tha answer
to many many questions.
Free will is being able to do anything you want without being threatened
with punishment and death.
Do people in a terrorist camp have free will too?
The serpent was either Satan or a minion of Satan. At this point in the
story the Angels had rebelled, civil war in heaven and Satan (Lucifer)
was demoted to Chief of Hell and its Legions.
So Adam and Eve were tempted and made the wrong choice. Instead of
saying, 'well God said NO, so leave it alone' they said "Yum, Yum,
this is tasty, and buy the way, you look real good naked" , things went
downhill from there.
They didn't hurt anyone.
Man did not exist on Earth for 100,000 years. The correct number is
closer to 8,500.
You have not heard of 1-800-555-GodSpeaks.
quote:Why does this all loving omnipotent God permit this punishment of
totally INNOCENT CHILDREN? Is he sadistic and enjoys the suffering of
his
subjects? :endquote
Christianity teaches that man is born with the burden of Original Sin.
When you are baptised that sin is forgiven. Not baptised, no
forgiveness, not innocent.
God speaks to ALL his followers. Not via the Public address system or a
radio chat show , but in the small internal voice of concience.
Then why do we need bibles?
If you
know that something is wrong but you choose to do it of your own FREE
WILL you have ignored the voice of GOD. (told you free will would come
and bite you on the a**)
What if you don't hear voices in your head? Not everyone does.
Here is an explanation of the Universe that you might crae to explore.
(this is not original but I forget the source)
In the beginning was GOD.
Everything was GOD , there was nothing that was not GOD.
Then God is evil too.
God was bored.
God split himself into a myriad of parts that he might have friends.
If all parts are God then if he punishes someone then he's actually
punishing part of himself.
--
Andrew W.
Free-mindedness is foolishness to those whose brains are perishing.
Religion Exposed!
http://members.optusnet.com.au/~ajwerner
.
|
|
|
|
| User: "The Watch Dog" |
|
| Title: Re: THE GRAND DECEPTION |
17 Aug 2005 06:39:30 PM |
|
|
wrote:
The serpent was either Satan or a minion of Satan. At this point in the
story the Angels had rebelled, civil war in heaven and Satan (Lucifer)
was demoted to Chief of Hell and its Legions.
Instead of being locked up, not the chief of anything, where he
couldn't interfere with the naive and ignorant humans. Why didn't God
choose a more thorough and useful punishment for Satan, instead of
letting him hang around and cause trouble?
Christianity teaches that man is born with the burden of Original Sin.
Why did God decide that, because Adam and Eve sinned, all subsequent
humans should be born with the burden of Original Sin? It seems like a
completely arbitrary and hurtful decision. Why not let each human have
the choices and circumstances of Adam and Eve? Why make it harder for
the later ones?
For that matter, if God intended to send Jesus to redeem man's sin, why
did He wait so long, letting millions live without even the chance of
hearing Jesus's message? Why not make Jesus the son of Adam and Eve?
Are we allowed to ask why an all-powerful, all-knowing, all-loving God
arranged the world so that many people would fail, rather than taking
one of these more beneficial steps?
.
|
|
|
| User: "Pastor Frank" |
|
| Title: Re: THE GRAND DECEPTION |
18 Aug 2005 11:09:26 AM |
|
|
"The Watch Dog" <tirhuan@aol.com> wrote in message
news:1124321970.755449.240090@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com...
Why did God decide that, because Adam and Eve sinned, all subsequent
humans should be born with the burden of Original Sin? It seems like a
completely arbitrary and hurtful decision. Why not let each human have
the choices and circumstances of Adam and Eve? Why make it harder for
the later ones?
That's just it: Choice. Other living beings have no choice but to do
what they are programmed to do, we however have free will and can spend our
lives "wailing" complaints interminably and "gnash teeth" in abject
frustration and furious anger, or be loving sons unto our Father which is in
heaven and do the will of the Father. No other living entity has that
choice.
From the moment Adam and Eve partook of the fruit (result) of the
knowledge of good and evil, mankind became opinionated and judgmental and
thus sinful and potentially very nasty.
Pastor Frank
ORIGINAL SIN
Gen 3:22-23 And the Lord God said: Behold, the man is become as one
of us, to know good from evil. And now, lest he put forth his hand, and
take also from the tree of life, and eat and live for ever, I will drive out
the man from the garden of Eden, to till the land from which he was taken.
Therefore ORIGINAL SIN is being judgmental and opinionated about
who, or what is good or evil. After eating the fruit (tasting the result) of
the knowledge of good and evil, Adam and Eve made their first judgment:
"It is shameful and/or evil to be seen naked in public". To this day, most
people in the world still are of the very same opinion, though it is neither
logical nor reasonable.
.
|
|
|
| User: "The Watch Dog" |
|
| Title: Re: THE GRAND DECEPTION |
19 Aug 2005 01:57:18 AM |
|
|
Pastor Frank wrote:
"The Watch Dog" <tirhuan@aol.com> wrote in message
news:1124321970.755449.240090@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com...
Why did God decide that, because Adam and Eve sinned, all subsequent
humans should be born with the burden of Original Sin? It seems like a
completely arbitrary and hurtful decision. Why not let each human have
the choices and circumstances of Adam and Eve? Why make it harder for
the later ones?
That's just it: Choice. Other living beings have no choice but to do
what they are programmed to do, we however have free will and can spend our
lives "wailing" complaints interminably and "gnash teeth" in abject
frustration and furious anger, or be loving sons unto our Father which is in
heaven and do the will of the Father. No other living entity has that
choice.
From the moment Adam and Eve partook of the fruit (result) of the
knowledge of good and evil, mankind became opinionated and judgmental and
thus sinful and potentially very nasty.
Yes, well, what you say is very interesting, but it is in no way a
answer to the question I actually asked.
After Adam and Eve sinned, why did God decide to make their
*descendents* - who had not yet sinned - "opinionated and judgmental
and thus sinful and potentially very nasty"? He could, if He had
wished, punished Adam and Eve for their sins, but not made their
children and their children's children arrive in this world worse off
than Adam and Eve did (i.e., burdened with the stain of Original Sin).
I don't think anybody could argue that it would have been *unjust* for
God not to burden Adam and Eve's progeny with the consequences of Adam
and Eve's sin. Also, God never told Adam and Eve that, if they ate the
apple, their children would be changed for the worse, so no one could
claim that God was breaking a promise. (In fact, most people would
think it more just for children to not be punished for their parents'
sin, in which the children took no part.) And it seems to me that it
would have been a more loving act towards the children, and God loves
us.
So why did he make men after Adam and Eve "opinionated and judgmental
and thus sinful and potentially very nasty"? He didn't have to; and it
hurt people. Why not have people born *without* the stain of Original
Sin - just like Adam and Eve were created - and then leave them to
decide, from this fine position, whether to sin or not. It wouldn't
remove their free will (their choice) to do so. After all, Adama and
Eve didn't have Original Sin, but they had free will.
"That's just it: Choice" is not an answer to this question, since the
children of Adam and Eve would have choice in either case.
.
|
|
|
| User: "Pastor Frank" |
|
| Title: Re: THE GRAND DECEPTION |
20 Aug 2005 06:24:52 AM |
|
|
"The Watch Dog" <tirhuan@aol.com> wrote in message
news:1124434638.713272.284430@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com...
Pastor Frank wrote:
"The Watch Dog" <tirhuan@aol.com> wrote in message
news:1124321970.755449.240090@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com...
Why did God decide that, because Adam and Eve sinned, all subsequent
humans should be born with the burden of Original Sin? It seems like a
completely arbitrary and hurtful decision. Why not let each human have
the choices and circumstances of Adam and Eve? Why make it harder for
the later ones?
That's just it: Choice. Other living beings have no choice but to do
what they are programmed to do, we however have free will and can spend
our
lives "wailing" complaints interminably and "gnash teeth" in abject
frustration and furious anger, or be loving sons unto our Father which is
in
heaven and do the will of the Father. No other living entity has that
choice.
From the moment Adam and Eve partook of the fruit (result) of the
knowledge of good and evil, mankind became opinionated and judgmental and
thus sinful and potentially very nasty.
Yes, well, what you say is very interesting, but it is in no way a
answer to the question I actually asked.
After Adam and Eve sinned, why did God decide to make their
*descendents* - who had not yet sinned - "opinionated and judgmental
and thus sinful and potentially very nasty"? He could, if He had
wished, punished Adam and Eve for their sins, but not made their
children and their children's children arrive in this world worse off
than Adam and Eve did (i.e., burdened with the stain of Original Sin).
I don't think anybody could argue that it would have been *unjust* for
God not to burden Adam and Eve's progeny with the consequences of Adam
and Eve's sin. Also, God never told Adam and Eve that, if they ate the
apple, their children would be changed for the worse, so no one could
claim that God was breaking a promise. (In fact, most people would
think it more just for children to not be punished for their parents'
sin, in which the children took no part.) And it seems to me that it
would have been a more loving act towards the children, and God loves
us.
So why did he make men after Adam and Eve "opinionated and judgmental
and thus sinful and potentially very nasty"? He didn't have to; and it
hurt people. Why not have people born *without* the stain of Original
Sin - just like Adam and Eve were created - and then leave them to
decide, from this fine position, whether to sin or not. It wouldn't
remove their free will (their choice) to do so. After all, Adama and
Eve didn't have Original Sin, but they had free will.
"That's just it: Choice" is not an answer to this question, since the
children of Adam and Eve would have choice in either case.
You are in effect asking: Why did God not make us like animals who
cannot do evil, for they have no choice. In that case we would not have been
make in God's image, for God knows the difference between good and evil and
that is why He said in Gen 3:22-23: And the Lord God said: Behold, the man
is become as one of us, to know good from evil.
Note, God did not say I have created the man with the knowledge of good
and evil, but that the man "is become as one of us". This knowledge
therefore was an evolutionary attribute which was passed on to all of man's
progeny from then on.
.
|
|
|
| User: "The Watch Dog" |
|
| Title: Re: THE GRAND DECEPTION |
21 Aug 2005 02:53:03 AM |
|
|
Pastor Frank wrote:
"The Watch Dog" <tirhuan@aol.com> wrote in message
news:1124434638.713272.284430@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com...
Pastor Frank wrote:
"The Watch Dog" <tirhuan@aol.com> wrote in message
news:1124321970.755449.240090@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com...
Why did God decide that, because Adam and Eve sinned, all subsequent
humans should be born with the burden of Original Sin? It seems like a
completely arbitrary and hurtful decision. Why not let each human have
the choices and circumstances of Adam and Eve? Why make it harder for
the later ones?
That's just it: Choice. Other living beings have no choice but to do
what they are programmed to do, we however have free will and can spend
our
lives "wailing" complaints interminably and "gnash teeth" in abject
frustration and furious anger, or be loving sons unto our Father which is
in
heaven and do the will of the Father. No other living entity has that
choice.
From the moment Adam and Eve partook of the fruit (result) of the
knowledge of good and evil, mankind became opinionated and judgmental and
thus sinful and potentially very nasty.
Yes, well, what you say is very interesting, but it is in no way a
answer to the question I actually asked.
After Adam and Eve sinned, why did God decide to make their
*descendents* - who had not yet sinned - "opinionated and judgmental
and thus sinful and potentially very nasty"? He could, if He had
wished, punished Adam and Eve for their sins, but not made their
children and their children's children arrive in this world worse off
than Adam and Eve did (i.e., burdened with the stain of Original Sin).
I don't think anybody could argue that it would have been *unjust* for
God not to burden Adam and Eve's progeny with the consequences of Adam
and Eve's sin. Also, God never told Adam and Eve that, if they ate the
apple, their children would be changed for the worse, so no one could
claim that God was breaking a promise. (In fact, most people would
think it more just for children to not be punished for their parents'
sin, in which the children took no part.) And it seems to me that it
would have been a more loving act towards the children, and God loves
us.
So why did he make men after Adam and Eve "opinionated and judgmental
and thus sinful and potentially very nasty"? He didn't have to; and it
hurt people. Why not have people born *without* the stain of Original
Sin - just like Adam and Eve were created - and then leave them to
decide, from this fine position, whether to sin or not. It wouldn't
remove their free will (their choice) to do so. After all, Adama and
Eve didn't have Original Sin, but they had free will.
"That's just it: Choice" is not an answer to this question, since the
children of Adam and Eve would have choice in either case.
You are in effect asking: Why did God not make us like animals who
cannot do evil, for they have no choice.
I am not asking that AT ALL, in effect or otherwise. There is nothing
whatsoever in my post that asks that question. I have no idea
whatsoever why you think that is what I'm asking.
What I am asking (as you will see if you read my actual post) is: Why
did God punish the DESCENDENTS of Adam and Eve (the children who had no
part in the sin in the Garden of Eden, and were not even born yet when
it took place) by saddling them with the burden of Original Sin? It's
one thing to punish Adam and Eve for their actual sin; it is another to
alter all of Adam and Eve's descendents by instilling them with
Original Sin. This does not seem to be necessary on the basis of
justice, fairness, necessity, or mercy. If God loves humanity, why not
allow children - who, after all, have committed no sin - to enter the
world as Adam and Eve did, without Original Sin, rather than adding
this additional hurdle for them to jump (a hurdle Adam and Eve did not
have)?
I would add another question: Why do you think that I was asking, in
effect, why God did not make us like animals who cannot do evil, for
they have no choice, when I said nothing like that? But if you would
just addres my first question, I guess that would be enough.
.
|
|
|
| User: "Pastor Frank" |
|
| Title: Re: THE GRAND DECEPTION |
21 Aug 2005 10:40:40 PM |
|
|
"The Watch Dog" <tirhuan@aol.com> wrote in message
news:1124610783.495543.151480@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com...
Pastor Frank wrote:
"The Watch Dog" <tirhuan@aol.com> wrote in message
news:1124434638.713272.284430@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com...
Pastor Frank wrote:
"The Watch Dog" <tirhuan@aol.com> wrote in message
news:1124321970.755449.240090@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com...
Why did God decide that, because Adam and Eve sinned, all subsequent
humans should be born with the burden of Original Sin? It seems like
a
completely arbitrary and hurtful decision. Why not let each human
have
the choices and circumstances of Adam and Eve? Why make it harder
for
the later ones?
That's just it: Choice. Other living beings have no choice but to
do
what they are programmed to do, we however have free will and can
spend
our
lives "wailing" complaints interminably and "gnash teeth" in abject
frustration and furious anger, or be loving sons unto our Father which
is
in
heaven and do the will of the Father. No other living entity has that
choice.
From the moment Adam and Eve partook of the fruit (result) of the
knowledge of good and evil, mankind became opinionated and judgmental
and
thus sinful and potentially very nasty.
Yes, well, what you say is very interesting, but it is in no way a
answer to the question I actually asked.
After Adam and Eve sinned, why did God decide to make their
*descendents* - who had not yet sinned - "opinionated and judgmental
and thus sinful and potentially very nasty"? He could, if He had
wished, punished Adam and Eve for their sins, but not made their
children and their children's children arrive in this world worse off
than Adam and Eve did (i.e., burdened with the stain of Original Sin).
I don't think anybody could argue that it would have been *unjust* for
God not to burden Adam and Eve's progeny with the consequences of Adam
and Eve's sin. Also, God never told Adam and Eve that, if they ate the
apple, their children would be changed for the worse, so no one could
claim that God was breaking a promise. (In fact, most people would
think it more just for children to not be punished for their parents'
sin, in which the children took no part.) And it seems to me that it
would have been a more loving act towards the children, and God loves
us.
So why did he make men after Adam and Eve "opinionated and judgmental
and thus sinful and potentially very nasty"? He didn't have to; and it
hurt people. Why not have people born *without* the stain of Original
Sin - just like Adam and Eve were created - and then leave them to
decide, from this fine position, whether to sin or not. It wouldn't
remove their free will (their choice) to do so. After all, Adama and
Eve didn't have Original Sin, but they had free will.
"That's just it: Choice" is not an answer to this question, since the
children of Adam and Eve would have choice in either case.
You are in effect asking: Why did God not make us like animals who
cannot do evil, for they have no choice.
I am not asking that AT ALL, in effect or otherwise. There is nothing
whatsoever in my post that asks that question. I have no idea
whatsoever why you think that is what I'm asking.
What I am asking (as you will see if you read my actual post) is: Why
did God punish the DESCENDENTS of Adam and Eve (the children who had no
part in the sin in the Garden of Eden, and were not even born yet when
it took place) by saddling them with the burden of Original Sin? It's
one thing to punish Adam and Eve for their actual sin; it is another to
alter all of Adam and Eve's descendents by instilling them with
Original Sin.
Ever heard of genetics? Partaking of the fruit (results) of knowing the
difference between good and evil, and becoming opinionated and judgmental as
a result, is something one passes on to one's children.
Modern parents seek to avoid the problem by refraining to teach their
children the difference between good and evil, in the vain hope their
children will NOT grow up to be judgmental and opinionated. But all those
parents get are selfish and spoiled children, lacking a conscience.
Yes, God could have created us pre-programmed to do the right thing
always. But when you are a Father looking for loving and caring sons, who
are so out of their own free will, why would He? See below
Pastor Frank
SONS OF GOD
Jesus in Jn:8:35-36: And the servant abideth not in the house for ever:
but the Son abideth ever. If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall
be free indeed.
Jesus in Jn:15:15: Henceforth I call you not servants; for the servant
knoweth not what his lord doeth: but I have called you friends; for all
things that I have heard of my Father I have made known unto you.
Jn:1:12: But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become
the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
Rom:8:14: For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons
of God.
Rom:8:19: For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the
manifestation of the sons of God.
Phil:2:15: That ye may be blameless and harmless, the sons of God,
without rebuke, in the midst of a crooked and perverse nation, among
whom ye shine as lights in the world;
1Jn:3:1: Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us,
that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us
not, because it knew him not.
1Jn:3:2: Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear
what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like
him; for we shall see him as he is.
.
|
|
|
| User: "The Watch Dog" |
|
| Title: Re: THE GRAND DECEPTION |
22 Aug 2005 01:42:28 PM |
|
|
Pastor Frank wrote:
"The Watch Dog" <tirhuan@aol.com> wrote in message
news:1124610783.495543.151480@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com...
Pastor Frank wrote:
"The Watch Dog" <tirhuan@aol.com> wrote in message
news:1124434638.713272.284430@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com...
Pastor Frank wrote:
"The Watch Dog" <tirhuan@aol.com> wrote in message
news:1124321970.755449.240090@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com...
Why did God decide that, because Adam and Eve sinned, all subsequent
humans should be born with the burden of Original Sin? It seems like
a
completely arbitrary and hurtful decision. Why not let each human
have
the choices and circumstances of Adam and Eve? Why make it harder
for
the later ones?
That's just it: Choice. Other living beings have no choice but to
do
what they are programmed to do, we however have free will and can
spend
our
lives "wailing" complaints interminably and "gnash teeth" in abject
frustration and furious anger, or be loving sons unto our Father which
is
in
heaven and do the will of the Father. No other living entity has that
choice.
From the moment Adam and Eve partook of the fruit (result) of the
knowledge of good and evil, mankind became opinionated and judgmental
and
thus sinful and potentially very nasty.
Yes, well, what you say is very interesting, but it is in no way a
answer to the question I actually asked.
After Adam and Eve sinned, why did God decide to make their
*descendents* - who had not yet sinned - "opinionated and judgmental
and thus sinful and potentially very nasty"? He could, if He had
wished, punished Adam and Eve for their sins, but not made their
children and their children's children arrive in this world worse off
than Adam and Eve did (i.e., burdened with the stain of Original Sin).
I don't think anybody could argue that it would have been *unjust* for
God not to burden Adam and Eve's progeny with the consequences of Adam
and Eve's sin. Also, God never told Adam and Eve that, if they ate the
apple, their children would be changed for the worse, so no one could
claim that God was breaking a promise. (In fact, most people would
think it more just for children to not be punished for their parents'
sin, in which the children took no part.) And it seems to me that it
would have been a more loving act towards the children, and God loves
us.
So why did he make men after Adam and Eve "opinionated and judgmental
and thus sinful and potentially very nasty"? He didn't have to; and it
hurt people. Why not have people born *without* the stain of Original
Sin - just like Adam and Eve were created - and then leave them to
decide, from this fine position, whether to sin or not. It wouldn't
remove their free will (their choice) to do so. After all, Adama and
Eve didn't have Original Sin, but they had free will.
"That's just it: Choice" is not an answer to this question, since the
children of Adam and Eve would have choice in either case.
You are in effect asking: Why did God not make us like animals who
cannot do evil, for they have no choice.
I am not asking that AT ALL, in effect or otherwise. There is nothing
whatsoever in my post that asks that question. I have no idea
whatsoever why you think that is what I'm asking.
What I am asking (as you will see if you read my actual post) is: Why
did God punish the DESCENDENTS of Adam and Eve (the children who had no
part in the sin in the Garden of Eden, and were not even born yet when
it took place) by saddling them with the burden of Original Sin? It's
one thing to punish Adam and Eve for their actual sin; it is another to
alter all of Adam and Eve's descendents by instilling them with
Original Sin.
Ever heard of genetics? Partaking of the fruit (results) of knowing the
difference between good and evil, and becoming opinionated and judgmental as
a result, is something one passes on to one's children.
Modern parents seek to avoid the problem by refraining to teach their
children the difference between good and evil, in the vain hope their
children will NOT grow up to be judgmental and opinionated. But all those
parents get are selfish and spoiled children, lacking a conscience.
Yes, God could have created us pre-programmed to do the right thing
always. But when you are a Father looking for loving and caring sons, who
are so out of their own free will, why would He?
Yes, I have heard of the genetics. And if you are actually talking
about genetics - as opposed to a (negative) miracle that took place
because God decided it should - then remember that ACQUIRED TRAITS ARE
NOT INHERITED. There is no genetic reason that Adam and Eve's sin in
the Garden should result in their descendents (who did not commit the
sin, and weren't even born yet when it took place) being born with the
burden of Original Sin on their souls. It was God's decision to alter
the souls of Adam and Eve's children this way, not some inevitable
genetic process.
Again, I have NOT asked why God didn't create us "pre-programmed to do
the right thing always." I have never asked that. My question - once
again - is why God decided that, on the basis of Adam and Eve's sin,
their descendents should be punished by being born with Original Sin,
which gives them an extra hurdle to overcome (a hurdle that Adam and
Eve didn't have). If Adam and Eve sinned, punish Adam and Eve - but why
punish their descendents with Original Sin, before these descendents
had a chance to do anything worth being punished for?
I am not asking why we are created with free will. I am asking why we
are not created with free will but without the stain of Original Sin -
as Adam and Eve (who definitely had free will) were created. Why make
things harder for the descendents of Adam and Eve than they were for
Adam and Eve themselves, when the descendents were not the ones who
sinned?
And I have another question: why do you keep answering "fre will, free
will!" when simply reading my posts would indicate that I'm not asking
about free will, but Original Sin? Why don't you address the question I
actually ask?
.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
| User: "Richo" |
|
| Title: Re: THE GRAND DECEPTION |
22 Aug 2005 01:07:49 AM |
|
|
wrote:
Bill, Bill, bIll, <sigh>
You start with a statement which is not proven. There are many
religions not all based on deception or myth.
Religions are complex beasties. Bill is making such simplistic and
broad statements as to render them meaningless noises.
All religions are based on human yearnings and human experiences of
life and is pains and its joys - deception (deceptions of self and of
others ) can become incorporated into religions as they evolve, but
they are not the "basis" of them (except for a few individual
pathological examples like Scientology).
People wonder at the existence of themselves and the world - that's the
*basis* of religion - where it goes from there is a matter of culture
of it followers and the ideas and personalities of its
creators/leaders.
I notice that Bill also uses the word "myth" like it's an exclusively
bad thing.
Just like "guns don't kill people - people do" you can say "myths don't
decieve people - people decieve themselves".
The purposes of myth are many - deception is (in general) not the
primary purpose - myths are for transmitting ideas - often moral
precepts or ways of seeing the world - sometimes they also entertain -
before there was TV, Film etc there were myths - and the very best
myths, like the best film and literature will move you emotionally -
inspire you - take you beyond yourself and let you see life from
another perspective.
Truly *great* fiction aspires to be myth - when people say Tolkiens
works are on a par with myth - they are not insulting the work they are
praising it..
I don't believe in the existence of God or the divinity of Jesus by the
way.
Mark.
.
|
|
|
|
| User: "Pastor Dave" |
|
| Title: Re: THE GRAND DECEPTION |
17 Aug 2005 03:50:05 PM |
|
|
On 17 Aug 2005 12:51:17 -0700,
spake thusly:
The serpent was either Satan or a minion of Satan.
It was Satan.
"And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent,
called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole
world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels
were cast out with him. " - Revelation 12:9
At this point in the story the Angels had rebelled,
civil war in heaven and Satan (Lucifer) was demoted
to Chief of Hell and its Legions.
Actually, that's not accurate. The Bible shows
it to be at the time of Jesus Christ. Read
Revelation 12.
Christianity teaches that man is born with
the burden of Original Sin. When you are
baptised that sin is forgiven. Not baptised,
no forgiveness, not innocent.
Baptism does not forgive sin. It is symbolic.
"The like figure whereunto even baptism doth
also now save us (not the putting away of the
filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good
conscience toward God,) by the resurrection
of Jesus Christ:" - 1 Peter 3:21
--
Pastor Dave
http://www.ecclesia.org/truth/solution.html
http://tinyurl.com/ce97m
"The mark of a society that's on its last leg, is when
there is no fear of God." - Adrian Rogers
"Species that were once thought to have turned into
others have been found to overlap in time with these
alleged descendants. In fact, the fossil record does
not convincingly document a single transition from one
species to another." (Stanley, S.M., The New
Evolutionary Timetable: Fossils, Genes, and the Origin
of Species, 1981, p. 95)
This signature was made by SigChanger.
You can find SigChanger at: http://www.phranc.nl/
.
|
|
|
| User: "Eric Brze" |
|
| Title: Re: THE GRAND DECEPTION |
18 Aug 2005 07:59:22 AM |
|
|
On Wed, 17 Aug 2005 20:50:05 GMT, Pastor Dave
<news-group-mail@nospam-tampa-bay.rr.com> wrote:
On 17 Aug 2005 12:51:17 -0700,
spake thusly:
The serpent was either Satan or a minion of Satan.
It was Satan.
There was no Satan in the garden. The serpent was the devil's advocate
for being the most wise. Satan is the one who dwells in foolishness.
"And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent,
called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole
world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels
were cast out with him. " - Revelation 12:9
At this point in the story the Angels had rebelled,
civil war in heaven and Satan (Lucifer) was demoted
to Chief of Hell and its Legions.
Actually, that's not accurate. The Bible shows
it to be at the time of Jesus Christ. Read
Revelation 12.
Christianity teaches that man is born with
the burden of Original Sin. When you are
baptised that sin is forgiven. Not baptised,
no forgiveness, not innocent.
Baptism does not forgive sin. It is symbolic.
"The like figure whereunto even baptism doth
also now save us (not the putting away of the
filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good
conscience toward God,) by the resurrection
of Jesus Christ:" - 1 Peter 3:21
.
|
|
|
| User: "Michael Gray" |
|
| Title: Re: THE GRAND DECEPTION |
18 Aug 2005 08:24:31 AM |
|
|
On Thu, 18 Aug 2005 08:59:22 -0400, Eric Brze <brze@no.spam.mail.com>
wrote:
On Wed, 17 Aug 2005 20:50:05 GMT, Pastor Dave
<news-group-mail@nospam-tampa-bay.rr.com> wrote:
On 17 Aug 2005 12:51:17 -0700,
spake thusly:
The serpent was either Satan or a minion of Satan.
It was Satan.
There was no Satan in the garden. The serpent was the devil's advocate
for being the most wise. Satan is the one who dwells in foolishness.
:
What was that number again?
Oh yes, how many angels can dance on the head of a pin?
.
| | | | | | |
