| Topic: |
Religions > Atheism |
| User: |
"Sound of Trumpet" |
| Date: |
29 Mar 2006 03:37:20 AM |
| Object: |
The "Heroes" Of Masada Were Bunch Of Cowardly Terrorists |
http://www.bibleinterp.com/articles/masadamyth1.htm
The Masada Myth
Scholar presents evidence that the heroes of the Jewish Great Revolt
were not heroes at all.
By Nachman Ben-Yehuda
Department of Sociology and Anthropology
Hebrew University, Jerusalem
The expression "the Masada Myth 1" has become quite common among
Israelis, and yet, the exact meaning of that expression is not entirely
clear. In this short paper I shall try to describe the nature of the
Masada myth, when it was created and why.
The logical structure I shall pursue here is the following. First,
I would like us to get acquainted with that historical narrative of
Masada that is not considered a "myth" - that is, with Josephus
Flavius?s account. Second, where and how do we learn about the myth?
Third, what is the myth? Fourth, why and when was the Masada mythical
narrative created?
The Masada Narrative As Described By Josephus Flavius
While the issue of the credibility of Josephus has never been fully
and satisfactorily resolved, more researchers seem to accept his
credibility. There also seems to be two different schools of thought
regarding the reading and interpretation of Josephus. One school tends
to infuse much interpretation into Josephus Flavius and reads him very
liberally. The other school emphasizes that one should read and
interpret Josephus "as is," that is as close as possible to the text
itself, without allowing for much free interpretation.
What Does Josephus Say? 2
The Masada narrative must be contextualized within the relevant
historical period otherwise it is meaningless. Masada was part of a
much larger Jewish revolt against the Roman Empire between the years
66-73. That revolt ended in disaster and in bitter defeat for the Jews.
Masada was only the final defeat in the much larger suppression of that
revolt.
Different ideological groups of Jews existed during the time of the
revolt. Of those, four are singled out as important. It appears that
the two most relevant groups are the Sicarii, and much more so, the
Zealots who apparently carried the main burden of the revolt. Josephus
makes a clear distinction between these two groups. Throughout
Josephus' books, the connection between the Zealots and the Sicarii is
not always entirely clear, but when Josephus discusses Masada his use
of the word "Sicarii" to describe the Jewish rebels there is quite
consistent.
Prior to the beginning of the revolt, Masada was taken over by
force?probably by the Sicarii (headed by Manachem) in 66 A.D., (e.g.,
see Cotton and Preiss 1990). In fact, this very act may have symbolized
and marked the beginning of the Jewish Great Revolt.
The Sicarii in Jerusalem were involved in so much terrorist
activity against Jews and others that they were forced to leave the
city some time before the Roman siege there began. They fled to Masada.
There, under the leadership/command of Eleazar Ben-Yair (a "tyrant" in
Josephus' terminology) they remained (perhaps with some non-Sicarii who
may have joined them) until the bitter end when most of them agreed to
kill one another.
While the Sicarii were in Masada, it is clear that they raided
nearby villages. One of the "peaks" of these raids was the attack on
Ein-gedi. According to Josephus, the Sicarii on Masada attacked Ein-
gedi in the following ferocious manner:
"...they came down by night, without being discovered... and overran a
small city called Engaddi: - in which expedition they prevented those
citizens that could have stopped them, before they could arm themselves
and fight them. They also dispersed them, and cast them out of the
city. As for such that could not run away, being women and children,
they slew of them above seven hundred" (p. 537).
Afterward, the Sicarii raiders carried all the food supplies from
Ein- gedi to Masada.
There are different versions about how long the siege of Masada lasted.
Josephus does not discuss this issue. However, it is very obvious that
the siege did not begin immediately following the destruction of
Jerusalem. First, the fortresses of Herodium and Machaerus were
conquered, and then Lucilius Bassus (who was sent to Judea as legate)
died and was replaced in command by Flavius Silva (who succeeded him as
procurator of Judea). Silva had to gather his forces and only then
launched the final attack on Masada. All these processes took time.
Most researchers seem to accept that the siege and fall of Masada
only took a few months?Probably from the winter of 72/73 A.D. until the
following spring?A matter of 4-6 (maybe 8) months. In fact, Roth's
impressively meticulous study (1995) states:
All in all, a nine-week siege is the likely maximum, a four-week siege
the likely minimum, and a siege of seven weeks the most probable length
for the siege of Masada. Postulating a siege of some seven weeks fits
in well with the date given by Josephus for the fall of the fortress,
whatever calendar is being used (p. 109).
Moreover, this conclusion is supported by the recent geological
attention paid to the fact that the massive siege ramp on the west side
of Masada is based on a natural huge spur. If so, then the Roman army
did not have to build the big siege ramp from the bottom of the
mountain, but only to add the actual ramp on top of that natural spur.
This means that constructing the ramp took a significantly less effort
than previously assumed by some (see Gill's 1993 work).
While in Josephus's description of the siege of Jerusalem he
describes rather courageous raids made by the Jewish defenders of
Jerusalem against the Romans, no such descriptions are available for
the siege on Masada. This is a significant omission because after
Jerusalem fell, the Roman army went on to conquer three other
fortresses. One was Herodium, which fell rather quickly. The other was
Machaerus where the Jews put a courageous fight including raids against
the Roman army. Moreover, Josephus had a clear "interest" to present
the heroic fight put by the Jews so as to demonstrate just how much
more heroic was the Roman army that conquered them. His failure to
mention any active fights or resistance (or raids) by Masada's
defenders against the Romans is not insignificant. Thus, while the
impression one typically gets through the historian?s description of
fights, battles and struggles, is that there was a war around
Jerusalem, no such impression is projected about the Roman siege of
Masada. In other words, there really was no "battle" around Masada.
We must remind ourselves at this point that there are plenty of
historical examples of real, remarkable and heroic "fighting to the
last." For example: Leonidas and his three hundred Spartans at the pass
of Thermopylae; the last stand at the Alamo; the readiness of the
American commander of the101st Airborne Division in Bastogne to "fight
to end" during the German counter-attack in the Ardennes in 1944; the
heroic stand of the U.S. Marines on Wake Island in 1941; the Jewish
revolt in the Warsaw Ghetto, against all odds and the death of Biblical
Samson together with his enemies. Thus, using a strictly Jewish
analogy, when the Sicarii were faced with the choice, they selected
suicide rather than the destiny of Samson.
What Josephus has to say about the suicide is that after the Romans
entered Masada and discovered the dead bodies: "Nor could they [the
Romans] do other than wonder at the courage of their [the Sicarii]
resolution, and at the immovable contempt of death which so great a
number of them had shown, when they went through with such an action as
that was" (p. 603). The absolute resolution and courage of the Sicarii
and their act of collective suicide in Masada raised, apparently, much
respect and wonder among the Romans and in Josephus Flavius. Indeed, it
should. But, the analytic jump from "respect" to "heroism" is not made
by Josephus. It was socially constructed. Indeed, elsewhere Josephus
describes the Sicarii killing one another as: "Miserable men indeed
they were!" (p. 603).
The unpleasant impression is that the Sicarii on Masada, so adept
at raiding nearby villages, were not really good fighters and, in fact,
avoided opportunities to fight. Josephus points out, in particular,
that Eleazar Ben-Yair had to make two speeches in order to persuade his
people to commit that suicide. He even "quotes" those speeches at
length. The implication, obviously, is that the Jewish rebels on Masada
were originally quite reluctant to commit themselves to collective
suicide.
Josephus states that there were close to a thousand Sicarii on top
of Masada. These people were not all warriors. There were women and
children there, and perhaps other non-combatants. How many actual
fighters were there is unknown. Although Josephus does not state the
specific size of the 10th Roman legion, which carried out the siege on
Masada, it seems safe to assume that it was probably composed of a
minimum of 6,000 soldiers (the estimate found in the literature).
However, the size could have reached 10,000 too.
It is imperative to emphasize that there were seven survivors from
the collective suicide. This is an important point because the details
about that last night of the Sicarii on Masada were provided by one of
the women survivors.
Thus, when we carefully examine the main ingredients of Josephus's
narrative about both the Great Revolt and Masada, a portrait of heroism
in Masada is simply not provided. On the contrary. The narrative
conveys the story of a doomed (and questionable) revolt, of a majestic
failure and destruction of the Second Temple and of Jerusalem, of
large-scale massacres of the Jews, of different factions of Jews
fighting and killing each other, of collective suicide (an act not
viewed favorably by the Jewish faith) by a group of terrorists and
assassins whose "fighting spirit" may have been questionable. Moreover,
and specifically for Masada, Josephus?s implication is that it was not
only the nature of the rebels there that was problematic, but their
lack of a fighting spirit too. Josephus implies that the 10th Roman
legion came in and put a siege around Masada. That siege was not too
long and was not accompanied by any major fighting. When the Romans
managed to enter the fortress they found seven survivors and the
remains of the Jewish Sicarii (and perhaps some non-Sicarii, too) who
had committed collective suicide. This act itself clearly instilled in
both the Roman soldiers and Josephus a respect for those rebels.
From the Roman military perspective, the Masada campaign must have
been an insignificant action following a very major war in Judea?a sort
of a mop-up operation. It was something the Roman army had to do, but
that did not involve anything too special in terms of military strategy
or effort. In fact, Shatzman (1993) notes that the Roman siege of
Masada was quite standard. Reading Josephus's narrative raises the
immediate question of how could such a horrible and questionable story
become such a positive symbol? After all, the heroism in the Masada
narrative and in the context is not at all self evident or understood.
How Do We Know What The Masada Mythical Narrative Is?
Now that we are acquainted a bit with the historical account about
Masada, the next question is to what extent are Israelis familiar with
this account? How close is their knowledge of Masada to the actual
historical account? More important, how do we know what these Israelis
(and others) know? To discover the answers to these questions, I
examined the different cultural manifestations of the account. That is,
the methodological question became focused on how cultures manufacture
and transmit knowledge to their members. In the case of Masada, that
question was not difficult to answer. I made an in-depth inquiry into
almost every possible cultural facet that could have references to
Masada, and examined how the Masada account was described there. This
examination was both historical and cross-sectional, and consisted of
examining written sources (newsletters, books, pamphlets, newspapers)
as well as interviews. The cultural elements that I checked were:
1. Youth movements. The major seven youth movements in Israel (secular
and religious) were examined.
2. The use of Masada by the pre-state Jewish underground movements in
Palestine.
3. The ways that Masada was used in the Israeli army.
4. The way Masada is presented in textbooks for schools (elementary and
high), as well as in reference texts and Encyclopedias.
5. The way Masada was presented in the printed daily media during the
1963-1965 excavations of the site (religious and secular).
6. The way Masada is presented to tourists who visit the site; in
printed manual tour guides; the numbers of visitors to Masada; the
development of Masada as a site for tourists.
7. The way Masada is presented in various art forms: children?s
literature; adult fiction; poetry; theater; movies; pictures;
sculpturing; science fiction. Examining all these areas gives us a very
powerful cultural analysis as to the amount of consistency between the
account given by Josephus Flavius and the nature of the presentation of
Masada in the Jewish Israeli culture. Moreover, this cultural analysis
also exposes the ways in which Masada was presented.
The Masada Mythical Narrative
It should come as no surprise to find out that the most obvious
conclusion from the cultural analysis is that the way Masada is
presented in the various cultural manifestations that I examined is not
at all consistent with the account provided by Josephus Flavius. As
compared to Josephus, the Masada mythical narrative constitutes a
significant deviation from the historical account.
Three main elements from Josephus' historical account are, more or
less, kept in the mythical narrative. These are:
The Jewish rebels who took part in the Great Revolt against the Roman
Empire found themselves at the end of the rebellion on Masada
The Roman imperial army launched a siege on the mountain in order to
conquer the place and capture the rebels
When the rebels realized that there was no more hope of either winning
or holding out against the Roman army, they chose to kill themselves
rather than surrender and become wretched slaves.
These details can be found in nearly all forms of the mythical
narrative, both written and oral. Viewed in this manner, it is indeed
easy to be impressed with the heroism of the rebels on top of Masada.
Many other no less important elements from the historical account
are typically omitted altogether from the mythical account. Moreover,
these omissions are frequently accompanied by factually
unsubstantiated, imaginary (and sometimes quite creative, one must
admit) "information."
Omissions and Factually Unsubstantiated "Information" Added to the
Masada Account
In the first place, the fact that the events at Masada were the
final act in a failed and disastrous revolt against the Roman Empire is
not proven. The wisdom of that revolt, and the questionable way in
which it was organized and fought, are typically not spelled out
explicitly. Generally added to this omission is the fabrication that
the rebels on Masada arrived there after the destruction of Jerusalem.
This is significant since it implies that these "poor heroes," who
fought so hard in Jerusalem, were barely able to escape the Roman army.
However, having succeeded in doing so, they chose to continue the fight
elsewhere. Almost completely ignored is the fact that the Sicarii on
Masada were forced to leave the city by the other Jews in Jerusalem who
had had enough of them and their leader Menachem. The Sicarii were, in
fact, forced to flee Jerusalem before the Roman army put a siege on the
city. It was at this time that they found refuge on top of Masada.
Second, the true identity and nature of the "rebels" on Masada is
not usually revealed. As we have seen, they were Sicarii, and what
Josephus has to say about them is not exactly flattering. They were a
group of thieves and assassins who killed and robbed other Jews. Very
few accounts of the events mention them, or their nature. The terms
generally used to describe them, such as "defenders of Masada,"
"fighters of Masada," and, most frequently, "Zealots," are deliberately
deceptive. The last term - following Josephus - is simply inaccurate.
Third, the raids carried out by the Sicarii at Masada on nearby
Jewish (?) villages, and their massacre of the settlers at Ein-gedi,
which testifies to their nature as brutal assassins, robbers, or
terrorists, is almost universally ignored.
Fourth, the length of the Roman siege of Masada, most probably
between a few weeks to perhaps four months, at least in accordance with
Josephus, tends to be ignored. The siege is usually described vaguely
as "long" or as having "taken years," or else as having lasted between
one to three (more typical) years.
Fifth, the fact that no battles around Masada are described by
Josephus Flavius is ignored. Also ignored is the implied possibility
that the Sicarii may have been less than enthusiastic about fighting
the Roman army. In fact, many versions of the mythical narrative either
imply or state explicitly that those on Masada during the siege fought
the Roman tenth legion, carrying out raids on its troops, its war
machines, etc. Thus, a real battle is hinted at; some creative writers
have even suggested that Masada was the center of operations against
the Romans. This is pure invention. However, given the fact that
archaeological excavations have failed to provide any confirmation of a
real battle, this scenario is more than likely pure fabrication.
Nevertheless, while it is probable that there may have been a fight in
the last stage of the siege when the Romans were actually in the
process of breaching the wall, prior to that time there was no
significant opposition from the besieged ?heroes? of Masada.
Sixth, attempts are made to "undo" the suicide either by using
expressions that ignore the exact nature of the act, such as "died
heroically," "chose death over slavery," etc., or by emphasizing that
Ben-Yair?s followers killed each other and not themselves; that is, of
course, except for the last person.
Seventh, the hesitation of the rebels to commit suicide and the
fact that it took Eleazar Ben-Yair two speeches in order to persuade
them to do so is typically disregarded. Only one speech, if any, is
usually mentioned. This, of course, is much more consistent with a tale
of heroism; after all, heroes do not hesitate.
Eighth, Josephus's report of seven survivors is rarely mentioned
and it is often emphasized that all of those present on Masada
committed suicide. Usually the whole matter of survivorship is ignored
although at times mention is made of "one survivor" (an "old lady"), or
of "no survivors." Once again, this approach suits the heroic theme
much better: heroes do not hide underground "cowering" in fear for
their own survival.
Finally, the choices left open to the rebels on Masada are usually
presented as having been limited to two: surrender or death (meaning
suicide). Other possible (and glorious) alternatives, such as actually
fighting to the end (as suggested by Josippon) or concentrating forces
in one spot in an attempt to create a diversion that could have allowed
for the escape of many, including the women and children as suggested
by Weiss-Rosmarin, are completely ignored. Also ignored is the
possibility (albeit less desirable one) of the rebels trying to
negotiate with the Romans (in fact, such a negotiation did take place
at Machaerus).
Other Methods Used in Construction of Mythical Narrative
Omission and addition are not the only methods used in the social
construction of the mythical narrative. Emphasis has also played an
important role. For example, most sources that propagate the Masada
myth present a picture of a small group of rebels against a huge Roman
army. Sometimes, even figures are provided: 967 rebels against
thousands (10,000-15,000) of Roman soldiers. While these figures are
probably accurate, their very emphasis tends to reinforce an element
that is one of the hallmarks of modern Israeli Jewish identity?the
struggle of "the few against the many".
If I wanted to synthesize and re-construct the Masada mythical
narrative, with its preservation of true facts, its omissions and its
additions, into an ideal type it might look something like this:
"After the destruction of Jerusalem by the Romans, the remaining
Zealots escaped to Masada. The Romans put a siege on Masada. The
Zealots fought valiantly and raided the Roman positions over a period
of three years (and thus Masada served as a center of a rebellion
against the Romans for three years). However, when they realized that
there was no longer any hope to win and that the choice was either
death or wretched slavery, they all chose to kill themselves."
Thus, by preserving some elements, by ignoring, in a systematic
fashion, the more problematic aspects, and by adding liberal
interpretations and fabrications, the heroic Masada mythical narrative
was formed.
The combined effect of the above-mentioned omissions, additions and
selective emphasizing is the creation of a heroic tale. Moreover, this
heroic tale is typically told on the site itself, in the presence of
the ancient ruins. Typically, it is told as part of a swearing-in
ceremony (in the army); a long and arduous trek in the Judean desert or
some other educational activity. This method of combining the
experiential part of an actual visit to Masada with a logically
constructed heroic tale, helped into being the suspension of disbelief
and the transmission of the Masada mythical narrative.
When And Why Was The Masada Mythical Narrative Created?
It is not too difficult to establish the fact that the Masada
mythical narrative was created by secular Zionism. (Religious Jews,
Zionists and non-Zionists were, to a very large extent, not part in the
creation of the myth. Many even objected fiercely to the myth). It is
clear that the Masada mythical narrative began to be created at the
turn of the century. It received a big boost in the 1920s. Before he
1920s Masada, as an heroic tale, was used in a debate between two
famous secular Zionist ideological leaders (Achad Ha'am and
Berdyczewski). In 1923 the excellent Hebrew translation of Josephus by
Dr. Simchoni was published. In 1927 Y. Lamdan published his most
popular Masada poem. Moreover, two key and powerful secular Zionists
who were promoting Masada as a heroic tale, Shmaria Guttman and Prof.
Yoseph Klosner, were operating in the late 1920s and early 1930s.
Clearly, the crystallizing Zionist movement was desperately looking
for heroic Jewish tales. It needed these tales for a few reasons:
To counteract the poisonous European anti-Semitic image of the Jew as
non-heroic
To create a new secular Jewish consciousness and identity
To establish a strong and unquestionable bonding of the Jews to
Palestine (then) and Israel (later).
The need for this bond became very acute in the early 1940s when
the threat of a Nazi invasion of Palestine was imminent (from Rommel's
Korpus Afrika). These years saw the crystallization of the Masada
mythical narrative in its most powerful form. The creation of the myth
then, no doubt, was justified from a functional point of view as it
helped many members of the Yishuv to face some truly formidable
historical challenges. Thus, the Masada mythical narrative has become a
major and important ingredient in shaping the national and personal
identity of the new secular and Zionist Jew?proud, rooted in his/her
land and willing, indeed able, to fight for this land to the end if
necessary. Clearly, the Masada mythical narrative has a strong
generational effect for some generations who were influenced by it the
most (including that of the author). This identity connection is
exactly the element that explains the negative emotional reaction
stirred by connecting the word "Masada" with "Myth" and thus implying
something that is untrue.
The archaeological excavations of the early 1960s headed by Prof.
Yigael Yadin helped to solidify the myth. However, following the Six
Days War (1967) the opening up of new sites as well as some profound
changes in Israeli society, created a process where, starting in the
late 1960s, Masada lost its sacred place in the secular Zionists
pantheon of heroism. Basically, Masada was transformed from a shrine of
heroism and a sacred place for pilgrimage into a tourist attraction.
The overwhelming majority of people visiting Masada these days are
non-Israelis.
Notes
(1) This paper is based on my 1995 book: The Masada Myth. Collective
Memory And Mythmaking In Israel. Madison: The University of Wisconsin
Press.
(2) When a reference to Josephus Flavius is made, the text used is The
Complete Works Of Josephus, by Josephus Flavius, Translated into
English by Wm. Whiston. I used the 1981 edition published by Kregel
Publications (Grand Rapids, Michigan). I deliberately used this edition
for several reasons. The small group of professional scholars who
specialize in Josephus use a reference system of book and paragraph
numbers, which I decided not to employ for two main reasons.
First, most naive readers are unaware of this system (which is
confined to the above scholars) and its use in a publication intended
for a more general audience will surely confuse the reader. I thus
preferred to use a text that is easily available and a citation mode
that is accessible to all.
Second, uncovering the myth of Masada requires that we attempt to
know what the myth makers at the time knew. Hence which version of
Josephus was used is a crucial issue. The edition used above was
clearly used by myth makers, as well as Simchoni's translation. The
fact is that without Josephus we know very little. Virtually all our
knowledge of the period and the relevant events is based on Josephus's
writings. He is--fortunately or unfortunately--the main, and in most
respects the only, historical source. If Josephus had not written a
history, there would "be" no Masada, Sicarii, revolt, and so forth. I
thus take Josephus's version as a fundamental baseline, regardless of
its "truth" value (unless, of course, one can come up with persuasive
arguments as to why what he says, or which parts of what he says, are
wrong.
Unquestionably, as an historical source, Josephus provides a
problematic account. But, it is the only historical account we have.
Historically speaking, it is the only detailed "truth" we have about
the Jewish Great Revolt and Masada.
Selected Bibliography On The Masada Myth
Ben-Yehuda, Nachman. 1995). The Masada Myth: Collective Memory And
Mythmaking In Israel. Madison: The University of Wisconsin Press.
Bruner, Edward M. and Phyllis Gorfain (1984): "Dialogic Narration and
the Paradoxes of Masada" Pp. 56-75 in Plattner Stuart and Edward M.
Bruner (eds.): Text, Play, And Story: The Construction And
Reconstruction Of Self And Society, Washington: The American
Ethnological Society.
Cotton, Hanna and Yehonatan Preiss. 1990. "Who conquered Masada in 66
A.D. and who occupied it until it fell?" ZION, 55:449-454 (Hebrew).
Doty, William G. 1986. Mythography, The Study Of Myths And Rituals,
Alabama: The University of Alabama Press.
Gill, Dan. 1993. "A Natural Spur at Masada" Nature, 364[#6438]:569-570.
Lewis, Bernard. 1975. History: Remembered, Recovered, Invented,
Princeton: Princeton University Press.
Paine, Robert. 1994. "Masada: A History Of A Memory" History And
Anthropology, 6(#4):371-409.
Roth, Jonathan. 1995. "The Length of the Siege of Masada" Scripta
Classica Israelica, 14:87-110.
Schwartz, Barry, Yael Zerubavel, Bernice M. Barnett. 1986. "The
Recovery of Masada: A Study in Collective Memory," The Sociological
Quarterly, 27(#2): 147-164.
Shargel, Baila R. 1979. "The Evolution of the Masada Myth," Judaism,
28:357-371.
Shatzman, Israel. 1993. "The Roman Siege On Masada" Pp. 105-120 in
Hurvitz, Gila (ed.) The Story Of Masada: Discoveries From The
Excavations. Jerusalem: Hebrew University; Antiquities authority; the
Society for Studying Eretz Israel and Its Antiquities. (Hebrew).
Vidal-Naquet, Pierre. 1983. "Josephus Flavius and Masada," ZEMANIM,
13:67-75 (Hebrew).
_______. 1991. The Murderers Of Memory (Les Assassins de la Me`moire),
translated from French by Ada Paldor, Tel Aviv: Am Oved (Hebrew).
Zerubavel, Yael. 1995. Recovered Roots: Collective Memory And The
Making Of Israeli National Tradition, Chicago: The University of
Chicago Press.
.
|
|
| User: "Joseph Hertzlinger" |
|
| Title: Re: The "Heroes" Of Masada Were Bunch Of Cowardly Terrorists |
31 Mar 2006 01:47:24 AM |
|
|
According to Jewish histories, the Roman victory was made possible by
the sin of causeless hatred among Jews. (This is also described in the
documentary "Life of Brian.")
Islamists should take note.
--
http://hertzlinger.blogspot.com
.
|
|
|
| User: "Avenger" |
|
| Title: Re: The "Heroes" Of Masada Were Bunch Of Cowardly Terrorists |
02 Apr 2006 03:45:10 AM |
|
|
"Joseph Hertzlinger" <jcyclespersecondlongisland@nine.reticulatedcom.com>
wrote in message
news:g85Xf.1419$i41.1381@newsread1.news.atl.earthlink.net...
According to Jewish histories, the Roman victory was made possible by
the sin of causeless hatred among Jews.
By Roman histories. As the Roman general said,"just leave them alone and
they'll destroy themselves, don't give them an enemy they can unite against"
(This is also described in the
documentary "Life of Brian.")
Islamists should take note.
--
http://hertzlinger.blogspot.com
.
|
|
|
|
| User: "Terry Cross" |
|
| Title: Re: The "Heroes" Of Masada Were Bunch Of Cowardly Terrorists |
02 Apr 2006 02:21:37 PM |
|
|
Joseph Hertzlinger wrote:
According to Jewish histories, the Roman victory was made possible by
the sin of causeless hatred among Jews. (This is also described in the
documentary "Life of Brian.")
Islamists should take note.
Everyone has already taken note, including Benjamin Franklin. "All
hang together or we shall all hang separately," said Ben.
"A house divided against itself cannot stand," said Jesus.
It is a principle known by everyone, and followed by very few.
TCross
.
|
|
|
|
|
| User: "" |
|
| Title: Re: The "Heroes" Of Masada Were Bunch Of Cowardly Terrorists |
29 Mar 2006 04:09:02 AM |
|
|
Don't blow your horn to much, you might blow your top.:
Two of the disciples of Jesus were Simon the Zealot, and Judas the
Sicarri.
Judas - as we know - committed suicide after his master was arrested.
It may be that the 11/9 terrorists have more in common,
with Jesys and his disciples, than God-loving Americans.
(and not-god-loving Americans:)
So the real hero would be Saint Peter,
who denounced his master three times before the rooster called.
(not to do so would be suicide wouldn't it?)
I wonder if you believe that,
But I gues I'll never now.
Trumpets make sounds,
but they have no ears.
Peter van Velzen
March 2006
Trang
Thailand
.
|
|
|
| User: "Terry Cross" |
|
| Title: Re: The "Heroes" Of Masada Were Bunch Of Cowardly Terrorists |
29 Mar 2006 08:17:51 PM |
|
|
wrote:
Don't blow your horn to much, you might blow your top.:
Two of the disciples of Jesus were Simon the Zealot, and Judas the
Sicarri.
Judas - as we know - committed suicide after his master was arrested.
That was after his disgusting deal with the rabbis and chief priests in
the Sanhedrin, right?
It may be that the 11/9 terrorists have more in common,
Oh, those 11/9 terrorists were real mean, all right.
with Jesys
Who? Are you superstitious about naming the bloke? You think he will
jump out of the woodwork and drag you off to church, maybe?
and his disciples, than God-loving Americans.
(and not-god-loving Americans:)
So the real hero would be Saint Peter,
who denounced his master three times before the rooster called.
(not to do so would be suicide wouldn't it?)
It would indeed have been suicide, but Peter's action could not be
described as heroism. Peter faced grim pragmatism that night, and a
necessary humbling.
I wonder if you believe that,
But I gues I'll never now.
Apparently, you will never "spel", either.
TCross
.
|
|
|
| User: "" |
|
| Title: Re: The "Heroes" Of Masada Were Bunch Of Cowardly Terrorists |
30 Mar 2006 01:11:04 AM |
|
|
Terry Cross schreef:
pbamvv@worldonline.nl wrote:
Don't blow your horn to much, you might blow your top.:
Two of the disciples of Jesus were Simon the Zealot, and Judas the
Sicarri.
Judas - as we know - committed suicide after his master was arrested.
That was after his disgusting deal with the rabbis and chief priests in
the Sanhedrin, right?
Right, if I remember correctly Jesus knew what he was going to do
there,
and I therefor suspect it was really the Sanhedrin who were the
traitors.
It may be that the 11/9 terrorists have more in common,
Oh, those 11/9 terrorists were real mean, all right.
with Jesys
Who? Are you superstitious about naming the bloke? You think he will
jump out of the woodwork and drag you off to church, maybe?
Why, I keep making typing errors
Jesus Christ!
and his disciples, than God-loving Americans.
(and not-god-loving Americans:)
So the real hero would be Saint Peter,
who denounced his master three times before the rooster called.
(not to do so would be suicide wouldn't it?)
It would indeed have been suicide, but Peter's action could not be
described as heroism. Peter faced grim pragmatism that night, and a
necessary humbling.
The trumphet seems to think committing suicide is not the act of a
hero,
so I suspect (s)he thinks the opposite is.
Maybe I am wrong,
Maybe (s)he doesn't think at all.
I wonder if you believe that,
But I gues I'll never now.
Apparently, you will never "spel", either.
Now you'be got it!
Jesus Christ!
Greatings from Trang, Thailand\
Peter van Velzen
March 2006
.
|
|
|
|
|
|
| User: "BernardZ" |
|
| Title: Re: The "Heroes" Of Masada Were Bunch Of Cowardly Terrorists |
29 Mar 2006 06:01:56 AM |
|
|
In article <1143625040.107087.127080@t31g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>,
soundoftrumpet@mail2world.com says...
The Masada Narrative As Described By Josephus Flavius
Josephus Flavius is a confessed liar and con man who lived what must
have been for him, very trying times. Unfortunately for us, he is
basically our only source, for that period of history.
--
People were participants not observers in history.
Observations of Bernard - No 97
.
|
|
|
|
| User: "Salah Jafar" |
|
| Title: Re: The "Heroes" Of Masada Were Bunch Of Cowardly Terrorists |
29 Mar 2006 08:50:59 AM |
|
|
Just like the United States passing the Jewish Veteran act to give =
coward Jooz the congressional of honor they don't deserve.
SJ
.
|
|
|
| User: "Douglas Berry" |
|
| Title: Re: The "Heroes" Of Masada Were Bunch Of Cowardly Terrorists |
29 Mar 2006 06:17:48 PM |
|
|
What's so funny about peace, love and "Salah Jafar"
<codeman@hotmail.com> posting the following on Wed, 29 Mar 2006
14:50:59 GMT iin alt.atheism?
Just like the United States passing the Jewish Veteran act to give coward Jooz the congressional of honor they don't deserve.
OK, out of the 138 awardees identify which ones did not deserve the
Medal. Be specific, and cite the exact disqualifying acts.
But learn to type something resembling English first.
--
Douglas E. Berry Do the OBVIOUS thing to send e-mail
Atheist #2147, Atheist Vet #5
"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as
when they do it from religious conviction."
Blaise Pascal (1623-1662), Pense'es, #894.
.
|
|
|
| User: "Salah Jafar" |
|
| Title: Re: The "Heroes" Of Masada Were Bunch Of Cowardly Terrorists |
30 Mar 2006 08:22:54 AM |
|
|
What English do you want, the Jooz Version of English that would satisfy =
you stupid ego, or the type of English that challenge the =
intellectuality of the Jooz. Jooz did not deserve these medals, one of =
those guy was a fucking cook. You go do the research and prove to me =
they deserve it.
SJ
.
|
|
|
| User: "brique" |
|
| Title: Re: The "Heroes" Of Masada Were Bunch Of Cowardly Terrorists |
30 Mar 2006 09:24:55 AM |
|
|
Salah Jafar <codeman@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:2RRWf.13366$VL2.5911@trnddc04...
What English do you want, the Jooz Version of English that would satisfy you
stupid ego, or the type of English that challenge the intellectuality of the
Jooz. Jooz did not deserve these medals, one of those guy was a fucking
cook. You go do the research and prove to me they deserve it.
SJ
A far better idea, why dont you go boil your head, maybe after a few days
simmering, you may be able to absorb some sense?
.
|
|
|
| User: "Salah Jafar" |
|
| Title: Re: The "Heroes" Of Masada Were Bunch Of Cowardly Terrorists |
30 Mar 2006 10:44:18 AM |
|
|
Good Idea, since I want to put all Jooz in oven, maybe I will try =
boiling these Parasites.
SJ
.
|
|
|
| User: "brique" |
|
| Title: Re: The "Heroes" Of Masada Were Bunch Of Cowardly Terrorists |
30 Mar 2006 01:46:06 PM |
|
|
Salah Jafar <codeman@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:CVTWf.17462$ES3.14666@trnddc02...
Good Idea, since I want to put all Jooz in oven, maybe I will try boiling
these Parasites.
SJ
You really are a dumb *****,. ain't ya?
.
|
|
|
|
|
| User: "" |
|
| Title: Re: The "Heroes" Of Masada Were Bunch Of Cowardly Terrorists |
30 Mar 2006 01:15:42 PM |
|
|
Who cares what Salad Jafar thinks...he is just a stinkin stoopid Ayrab
right?
.
|
|
|
|
|
| User: "" |
|
| Title: Re: The "Heroes" Of Masada Were Bunch Of Cowardly Terrorists |
01 Apr 2006 01:23:10 AM |
|
|
Salah Jafar schreef:
What English do you want, the Jooz Version of English that would satisfy you stupid ego, or the type of English that challenge the intellectuality of the Jooz. Jooz did not deserve these medals, one of those guy was a fucking cook. You go do the research and prove to me they deserve it.
SJ
I suppose Douglas means the kind of English that would not include thew
word "Jooz"
DIdn't you guess?
I do not think he means the type of English that challenges the
intellectuality of Jews
but it might be the kind of Englsh that callenges the intellectuality
of Salah Safar.
But as to "prove".
Douglas Berry did not make any claims, so he does not have anything to
proof.
You claimed some people got a congressional (medal of) honor, that they
did not desserve.
Douglas invited you to name one person to show us that one person did
not desserve it.
I suppose you come up with some relevant data about the one you
describe as a "fucking cook".
And please don't show us any video proving he is fucking:)
Peter van Velzen
March 2006
Trang
Thailand
.
|
|
|
| User: "Dubh Ghall" |
|
| Title: Re: The "Heroes" Of Masada Were Bunch Of Cowardly Terrorists |
01 Apr 2006 05:52:44 PM |
|
|
On 31 Mar 2006 23:23:10 -0800, "pbamvv@worldonline.nl" <pbamvv@worldonline.nl>
wrote:
Salah Jafar schreef:
What English do you want, the Jooz Version of English that would satisfy you stupid ego,
or the type of English that challenge the intellectuality of the Jooz. Jooz did not deserve these medals,
one of those guy was a fucking cook. You go do the research and prove to me they deserve it.
SJ
I suppose Douglas means the kind of English that would not include thew
word "Jooz"
DIdn't you guess?
Wold that be apple jooz, or grape jooz, or what?
.... do you think?
I do not think he means the type of English that challenges the
intellectuality of Jews
but it might be the kind of Englsh that callenges the intellectuality
of Salah Safar.
IMFFHO, the English of Salah Safar, is a challenge to any one trying to make
sense of it.
But as to "prove".
Douglas Berry did not make any claims, so he does not have anything to
proof.
You claimed some people got a congressional (medal of) honor, that they
did not desserve.
Douglas invited you to name one person to show us that one person did
not desserve it.
I suppose you come up with some relevant data about the one you
describe as a "fucking cook".
That was probably Steven Segal(SP), in "Under Siege"
And please don't show us any video proving he is fucking:)
I don't think he made any blue movies.
.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
| User: "" |
|
| Title: Re: The "Heroes" Of Masada Were Bunch Of Cowardly Terrorists |
01 Apr 2006 05:23:08 AM |
|
|
On 29 Mar 2006 01:37:20 -0800, "Sound of Trumpet"
<soundoftrumpet@mail2world.com> wrote:
[all words and letters snipped, recycled]
Why humans fear fundamentalists...
.... they can see, hear, read and think.
Christopher = 'bearing, carrying Christ'
So in the service of the church and king, Christopher Columbus voyaged
to the 'new world', seeking to pillage and plunder to obtain riches to
be used by the church to further its empire.
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/apocalypse/explanation/columbus.html
So in bringing Christianity to the 'savages' of the new world,
Christopher and crew were known to:
1] grab suckling babies from their mother's bosom, swing them by the
legs to smash their heads against any nearby rock or tree, then toss
the mangled body to their attack dogs.
2] whack innocent Indians in half, on petty bets, to see who's sword
was sharpest, so as to do it in the fewest strokes.
3] behead 8 y.o. kids carrying pet birds, just for sport
4] Slice flesh from Indians to test the sharpness of their knives
5] hang Indians from a beam and slow roast them alive over a fire, 13
at a time. Why 13? To honor Jesus and the 12 apostles of course!
And that was only the beginning. The English Christians were far more
brutal. They even hung other white Christians who held alternative
beliefs than the fundamentalist Puritans exercising political
authority. When the king heard reports of his subjects being so
mistreated and made inquiries, the governor of Massachusetts wrote
back explaining that while the Quakers committed no capital crime
whatsoever, they questioned their authority and the beliefs of the
local church, so they just HAD to be hung.
One might note that the native populations in USA and Canada are
virtually wiped out, the remnants having little if any control of
their lives or freedom to determine their own destiny. Whereas south
of the border, indigenous populations who were subjected more to the
Spanish and Portuguese atrocities fared better and are still in the
majority. The Mexican population, even though still dominated by
Spaniards and other foreigners, consists of 30% fullblood native and
60% mixed blood.
About 1685, the colonizer's assigned Pastorius to establish a
community in the 'new world'. Pastorius did a demographic survey of
'his domain' and reported back thusly:
"Concerning the Inhabitants of this Province
Of these, three sorts may be found: 1. The natives, the so-called
savages. 2. The Christians who have come here from Europe, the
so-called Old Settlers. 3. The newly-arrived Associations and
Companies.
So far as concerns the first, the savages, they are, in general,
strong, agile and supple people, with blackish bodies; they went about
naked at first and only wore a cloth about the loins. Now they are
beginning to wear shirts. They have, usually, coal-black hair, shave
the head, smear the same with grease, and allow a long lock to grow on
the right side. They also besmear the children with grease, and let
them creep about in the heat of the sun, so that they become the color
of a nut, although they were white enough by nature.
They strive after a sincere honesty, hold strictly to their promises,
cheat and injure no one. They willingly give shelter to others, and
are both useful and loyal to their guests.
Their huts are made of young trees, twined, or bent, together, which
they know how to roof over with bark. They use neither table nor
bench, nor any other household stuff, unless perchance a single pot in
which they boil their food.
I once saw four of them take a meal together in hearty contentment,
and eat a pumpkin cooked in clear water, without butter and spice.
Their table and bench was the bare earth, their spoons were
mussel-shells, with which they dipped up the warm water, their plates
were the leaves of the nearest tree, which they did not need to wash
with painstaking after a meal, nor to keep with care for future use. I
thought to myself, these savages have never in their lives heard the
teaching of Jesus concerning temperance and contentment, yet they far
excel the Christians in carrying it out.
They are, furthermore, serious and of few words, and are amazed when
they perceive so much unnecessary chatter, as well as other foolish
behavior on the part of Christians.
Each man has his own wife, and they detest harlotry, kissing and
lying. They know no idols, but they worship a single all-powerful and
merciful God, who limits the power of the devil. They also believe in
the immortality of the soul, which, after the course of life is
finished, has a suitable recompense from the all-powerful hand of God
awaiting it.
They accompany their own worship of God with songs, during which they
make strange gestures and motions with the hands and feet, and when
they recall the death of their parents and friends, they begin to wail
and weep most pitifully.
They listen very willingly, and not without perceptible emotion, to
discourse concerning the Creator of Heaven and earth, and His divine
Light, which enlightens all men who have come into the world, and who
are yet to be born, and concerning the wisdom and love of God, because
of which he gave his only-begotten and most dearly-loved Son to die
for us. It is only to be regretted that we can not yet speak their
language readily, and therefore cannot set forth to them the thoughts
and intent of our own hearts, namely how great a power and salvation
lies concealed in Christ Jesus. They are very quiet and thoughtful in
our gatherings, so that I fully believe that in the future, at the
great day of judgment, they will come forth with those of Tyre and
Sidon, and put to shame many thousands of false nominal and canting
Christians.
As for their economy and housekeeping, the men attend to their hunting
and fishing. The women bring up their children honestly, under
careful oversight and dissuade them from sin. They plant Indian corn
and beans round about their huts, but they take no thought for any
more extensive farming and cattle raising; they are rather astonished
that we Christians take so much trouble and thought concerning eating
and drinking and also for comfortable clothing and dwellings, as if we
doubted that God were able to care for and nourish us.
Their native language is very dignified, and in its pronunciation much
resembles Italian, although the words are entirely different and
strange. They are accustomed to paint their faces with colors; both
men and women use tobacco with pleasure; they divert themselves with
fifes, or trumpets, in unbroken idleness.
---------
The second sort of Inhabitants on the province are the old Christians,
who came here from Europe.
These have never had the upright intention to give these native
creatures instruction in the true living Christianity, but instead
they have sought only their own worldly interests, and have cheated
the simple inhabitants in trade and intercourse, so that at length
those savages who dealt with these Christians, proved themselves to be
also for the most part, crafty, lying, and deceitful, so that I can
not say much that is creditable of either. These misguided people are
wont to exchange the skins and peltry which they obtain for strong
drink, and to drink so much that they can neither walk nor stand; also
they are wont to commit all sorts of thievery, as the occasion may
arise.
Owing to this, their kings and rulers have frequently complained of
the sins of falsehood, deceit, thieving, and drunkenness, introduced
here by the Christians, and which were formerly entirely unknown in
these parts."
========================
Francis Daniel Pastorius, on the founding of the settlement at
Germantown, "at a distance of two hours walk from Philadelphia", 1685
========================
Many years later, as the evangelicals sought to 'civilize' the
surviving Indians, one missionary made a visit to a Cherokee village.
Seeking permission to preach, he was interviewed by one of the
Cherokee elders, who wanted to ascertain the nature of the minister's
message.
The elder listened intently as the minister read some chapters from
the gospel of Matthew. Then, after pondering on those scriptural
words, he remarked 'That sounds like a good book. It is strange though
that you white people are not better persons, you have had it so
long.'
A tree is known by its fruits. Just what fruits has the tree of
Christianity born over the last 2000 years?
.
|
|
|
|
|
Related Articles |
|
|
