The historical Jesus



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Topic: Religions > Atheism
User: "Black-Phoenix-Night"
Date: 04 Oct 2006 01:31:19 PM
Object: The historical Jesus
Yet, strangely, some say that Jesus never lived-that he is, in
effect, a creation of some first-century men. Answering such skeptics,
the respected historian Will Durant argued: "That a few simple men
should in one generation have invented so powerful and appealing a
personality, so lofty an ethic and so inspiring a vision of human
brotherhood, would be a miracle far more incredible than any recorded
in the Gospels."
Ask yourself: Could a person who never lived have affected human
history so remarkably? The reference work The Historians' History of
the World observed: "The historical result of [Jesus'] activities
was more momentous, even from a strictly secular standpoint, than the
deeds of any other character of history. A new era, recognised by the
chief civilisations of the world, dates from his birth."
Yes, think about it. Even calendars today are based on the year that
Jesus was thought to have been born. "Dates before that year are
listed as B.C., or before Christ," explains The World Book
Encyclopedia. "Dates after that year are listed as A.D., or anno
Domini (in the year of our Lord)."
Critics, nevertheless, point out that all that we really know about
Jesus is found in the Bible. No other contemporary records concerning
him exist, they say. Even H. G. Wells wrote: "The old Roman
historians ignored Jesus entirely; he left no impress on the historical
records of his time." But is this true?
Although references to Jesus Christ by early secular historians are
meager, such references do exist. Cornelius Tacitus, a respected
first-century Roman historian, wrote: "The name [Christian] is
derived from Christ, whom the procurator Pontius Pilate had executed
in the reign of Tiberius." Suetonius and Pliny the Younger, other
Roman writers of the time, also referred to Christ. In addition,
Flavius Josephus, a first-century Jewish historian, wrote of James,
whom he identified as "the brother of Jesus, who was called
Christ."
The New Encyclop=E6dia Britannica thus concludes: "These independent
accounts prove that in ancient times even the opponents of Christianity
never doubted the historicity of Jesus, which was disputed for the
first time and on inadequate grounds at the end of the 18th, during the
19th, and at the beginning of the 20th centuries."
Essentially, however, all that is known about Jesus was recorded by his
first-century followers. Their reports have been preserved in the
Gospels-Bible books written by Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John. What do
these accounts say regarding the identity of Jesus?
.

User: "Michael Gray"

Title: Re: The historical Jesus 19 Oct 2006 06:18:39 PM
On Thu, 19 Oct 2006 10:58:43 -0700, stoney <stoney@the.net> wrote:
- Refer: <p5ffj2d7hoqvhuugrj34ro5no1r75e34af@4ax.com>

On Wed, 18 Oct 2006 12:49:47 +0930, Michael Gray
<fleetg@newsguy.spam.com> wrote in alt.atheism

On Tue, 17 Oct 2006 17:55:00 -0700, stoney <stoney@the.net> wrote:
- Refer: <kpuaj2p1o0plmoboo7m5a0kglugdt59st6@4ax.com>

On Mon, 16 Oct 2006 10:32:35 +0930, Michael Gray
<fleetg@newsguy.spam.com> wrote in alt.atheism

On Sun, 15 Oct 2006 09:49:54 -0700, stoney <stoney@the.net> wrote:
- Refer: <5kp4j21p6p400ielgma6m21snv4jkuth7g@4ax.com>

On Sun, 15 Oct 2006 08:00:59 +0930, Michael Gray
<fleetg@newsguy.spam.com> wrote in alt.atheism

On Sat, 14 Oct 2006 10:22:10 -0700, stoney <stoney@the.net> wrote:
- Refer: <f572j25hqpvirr0ehu8gfdpf6ale9empbe@4ax.com>

On Sat, 14 Oct 2006 09:17:44 +0930, Michael Gray
<fleetg@newsguy.spam.com> wrote in alt.atheism

On Fri, 13 Oct 2006 09:00:50 -0700, stoney <stoney@the.net> wrote:
- Refer: <01evi2tiiv7pvftrh4v988md6kdj7v45o9@4ax.com>

On Thu, 12 Oct 2006 07:54:44 +0930, Michael Gray
<fleetg@newsguy.spam.com> wrote in alt.atheism

On Wed, 11 Oct 2006 17:06:09 -0400, Christopher A. Lee
<calee@optonline.net> wrote:
- Refer: <05nqi21ntsolg2ftqpcre44nb34j32juvt@4ax.com>

On 11 Oct 2006 13:47:55 -0700,

wrote:


Christopher A. Lee wrote:

On 11 Oct 2006 10:44:47 -0700,

wrote:


You don't understand humor do you? Do you find at times everyone is
laughing but you?


Idiot.

Don't worry about it. It is paranoid to think that are laughing at
you. Unless of course, they are laughing at you. The key is being
able to determine why they are laughing at you.


You wish.


Are you really so joyless you can enjoy a little humor? Why are you
wasting time hating so much? Do something positive with your life.
All this negativity is just bringing you down. Little things should be
like water on a Duck's back. Ignore it and let if fall away.


Again, you're amateur-psychologising your own fasehood to come up with
something even nastier.


Why are you so serious? I just wanted to see if you could lighten up a
little. Where I am at the sun is shining and weather is fine. I am
going to go for a walk and enjoy it.

Do you tell Irish jokes in an Irish bar and then tell to lighten up,
*****?


I wish that he would try it.
The offended Irish patrons might just supply him with a sorely needed
lesson on manners and humility.


Wall-to-Wall Counseling®


Complete with free dental remodelling.


And possibly body modification.


Body peircing, mainly.


Yes.

Precision made by Irish craftsmen with hygenic necks of Guinness
bottles, that make perfect holes for jewelery, (amongst other things).


Don't forget; chairs, boots, pool cues.....


All applied with all the exquisite craftsmanship that all discerning
sociopaths demand from a drunken Irish louts who they have soothed
with crass insults.
O'Thepain.


The Nutcracker. Sweet.


O'Really?


O'Reilly

Does he have crystal balls?
.
User: "stoney"

Title: Re: The historical Jesus 21 Oct 2006 10:36:43 AM
On Fri, 20 Oct 2006 08:48:39 +0930, Michael Gray
<fleetg@newsguy.spam.com> wrote in alt.atheism

On Thu, 19 Oct 2006 10:58:43 -0700, stoney <stoney@the.net> wrote:
- Refer: <p5ffj2d7hoqvhuugrj34ro5no1r75e34af@4ax.com>

On Wed, 18 Oct 2006 12:49:47 +0930, Michael Gray
<fleetg@newsguy.spam.com> wrote in alt.atheism

[]

Christopher A. Lee wrote:

On 11 Oct 2006 10:44:47 -0700,

wrote:


You don't understand humor do you? Do you find at times everyone is
laughing but you?


Idiot.

Don't worry about it. It is paranoid to think that are laughing at
you. Unless of course, they are laughing at you. The key is being
able to determine why they are laughing at you.


You wish.


Are you really so joyless you can enjoy a little humor? Why are you
wasting time hating so much? Do something positive with your life.
All this negativity is just bringing you down. Little things should be
like water on a Duck's back. Ignore it and let if fall away.


Again, you're amateur-psychologising your own fasehood to come up with
something even nastier.


Why are you so serious? I just wanted to see if you could lighten up a
little. Where I am at the sun is shining and weather is fine. I am
going to go for a walk and enjoy it.

Do you tell Irish jokes in an Irish bar and then tell to lighten up,
*****?


I wish that he would try it.
The offended Irish patrons might just supply him with a sorely needed
lesson on manners and humility.


Wall-to-Wall Counseling®


Complete with free dental remodelling.


And possibly body modification.


Body peircing, mainly.


Yes.

Precision made by Irish craftsmen with hygenic necks of Guinness
bottles, that make perfect holes for jewelery, (amongst other things).


Don't forget; chairs, boots, pool cues.....


All applied with all the exquisite craftsmanship that all discerning
sociopaths demand from a drunken Irish louts who they have soothed
with crass insults.
O'Thepain.


The Nutcracker. Sweet.


O'Really?


O'Reilly


Does he have crystal balls?

Rumour has it he used to.
--
Fundies and trolls are cordially invited to
shove a wooden cross up their arses and rotate
at a high rate of speed. I trust you'll
be 'blessed' with a plethora of splinters.
.
User: "Michael Gray"

Title: Re: The historical Jesus 21 Oct 2006 06:36:38 PM
On Sat, 21 Oct 2006 08:36:43 -0700, stoney <stoney@the.net> wrote:
- Refer: <hjfkj29gc4h1tlfdnj1bgn1k227d2u6tpb@4ax.com>

On Fri, 20 Oct 2006 08:48:39 +0930, Michael Gray
<fleetg@newsguy.spam.com> wrote in alt.atheism

On Thu, 19 Oct 2006 10:58:43 -0700, stoney <stoney@the.net> wrote:
- Refer: <p5ffj2d7hoqvhuugrj34ro5no1r75e34af@4ax.com>

On Wed, 18 Oct 2006 12:49:47 +0930, Michael Gray
<fleetg@newsguy.spam.com> wrote in alt.atheism


[]

Christopher A. Lee wrote:

On 11 Oct 2006 10:44:47 -0700,

wrote:


You don't understand humor do you? Do you find at times everyone is
laughing but you?


Idiot.

Don't worry about it. It is paranoid to think that are laughing at
you. Unless of course, they are laughing at you. The key is being
able to determine why they are laughing at you.


You wish.


Are you really so joyless you can enjoy a little humor? Why are you
wasting time hating so much? Do something positive with your life.
All this negativity is just bringing you down. Little things should be
like water on a Duck's back. Ignore it and let if fall away.


Again, you're amateur-psychologising your own fasehood to come up with
something even nastier.


Why are you so serious? I just wanted to see if you could lighten up a
little. Where I am at the sun is shining and weather is fine. I am
going to go for a walk and enjoy it.

Do you tell Irish jokes in an Irish bar and then tell to lighten up,
*****?


I wish that he would try it.
The offended Irish patrons might just supply him with a sorely needed
lesson on manners and humility.


Wall-to-Wall Counseling®


Complete with free dental remodelling.


And possibly body modification.


Body peircing, mainly.


Yes.

Precision made by Irish craftsmen with hygenic necks of Guinness
bottles, that make perfect holes for jewelery, (amongst other things).


Don't forget; chairs, boots, pool cues.....


All applied with all the exquisite craftsmanship that all discerning
sociopaths demand from a drunken Irish louts who they have soothed
with crass insults.
O'Thepain.


The Nutcracker. Sweet.


O'Really?


O'Reilly


Does he have crystal balls?


Rumour has it he used to.

Cossack dancing does that to a man.
.
User: "stoney"

Title: Re: The historical Jesus 24 Oct 2006 06:52:36 PM
On Sun, 22 Oct 2006 09:06:38 +0930, Michael Gray
<fleetg@newsguy.spam.com> wrote in alt.atheism

On Sat, 21 Oct 2006 08:36:43 -0700, stoney <stoney@the.net> wrote:
- Refer: <hjfkj29gc4h1tlfdnj1bgn1k227d2u6tpb@4ax.com>

On Fri, 20 Oct 2006 08:48:39 +0930, Michael Gray
<fleetg@newsguy.spam.com> wrote in alt.atheism

On Thu, 19 Oct 2006 10:58:43 -0700, stoney <stoney@the.net> wrote:
- Refer: <p5ffj2d7hoqvhuugrj34ro5no1r75e34af@4ax.com>

On Wed, 18 Oct 2006 12:49:47 +0930, Michael Gray
<fleetg@newsguy.spam.com> wrote in alt.atheism


[]

Christopher A. Lee wrote:

On 11 Oct 2006 10:44:47 -0700,

wrote:


You don't understand humor do you? Do you find at times everyone is
laughing but you?


Idiot.

Don't worry about it. It is paranoid to think that are laughing at
you. Unless of course, they are laughing at you. The key is being
able to determine why they are laughing at you.


You wish.


Are you really so joyless you can enjoy a little humor? Why are you
wasting time hating so much? Do something positive with your life.
All this negativity is just bringing you down. Little things should be
like water on a Duck's back. Ignore it and let if fall away.


Again, you're amateur-psychologising your own fasehood to come up with
something even nastier.


Why are you so serious? I just wanted to see if you could lighten up a
little. Where I am at the sun is shining and weather is fine. I am
going to go for a walk and enjoy it.

Do you tell Irish jokes in an Irish bar and then tell to lighten up,
*****?


I wish that he would try it.
The offended Irish patrons might just supply him with a sorely needed
lesson on manners and humility.


Wall-to-Wall Counseling®


Complete with free dental remodelling.


And possibly body modification.


Body peircing, mainly.


Yes.

Precision made by Irish craftsmen with hygenic necks of Guinness
bottles, that make perfect holes for jewelery, (amongst other things).


Don't forget; chairs, boots, pool cues.....


All applied with all the exquisite craftsmanship that all discerning
sociopaths demand from a drunken Irish louts who they have soothed
with crass insults.
O'Thepain.


The Nutcracker. Sweet.


O'Really?


O'Reilly


Does he have crystal balls?


Rumour has it he used to.


Cossack dancing does that to a man.

I understood he was in a leaping contest over "one legged ponies" and he
slipped on the jump.
--
Fundies and trolls are cordially invited to
shove a wooden cross up their arses and rotate
at a high rate of speed. I trust you'll
be 'blessed' with a plethora of splinters.
.
User: "Michael Gray"

Title: Re: The historical Jesus 24 Oct 2006 08:13:43 PM
On Tue, 24 Oct 2006 16:52:36 -0700, stoney <stoney@the.net> wrote:
- Refer: <1o9tj2d5bn4n3j9a6gen7atva89ela2a6m@4ax.com>

On Sun, 22 Oct 2006 09:06:38 +0930, Michael Gray
<fleetg@newsguy.spam.com> wrote in alt.atheism

On Sat, 21 Oct 2006 08:36:43 -0700, stoney <stoney@the.net> wrote:
- Refer: <hjfkj29gc4h1tlfdnj1bgn1k227d2u6tpb@4ax.com>

On Fri, 20 Oct 2006 08:48:39 +0930, Michael Gray
<fleetg@newsguy.spam.com> wrote in alt.atheism

On Thu, 19 Oct 2006 10:58:43 -0700, stoney <stoney@the.net> wrote:
- Refer: <p5ffj2d7hoqvhuugrj34ro5no1r75e34af@4ax.com>

On Wed, 18 Oct 2006 12:49:47 +0930, Michael Gray
<fleetg@newsguy.spam.com> wrote in alt.atheism


[]

Christopher A. Lee wrote:

On 11 Oct 2006 10:44:47 -0700,

wrote:


You don't understand humor do you? Do you find at times everyone is
laughing but you?


Idiot.

Don't worry about it. It is paranoid to think that are laughing at
you. Unless of course, they are laughing at you. The key is being
able to determine why they are laughing at you.


You wish.


Are you really so joyless you can enjoy a little humor? Why are you
wasting time hating so much? Do something positive with your life.
All this negativity is just bringing you down. Little things should be
like water on a Duck's back. Ignore it and let if fall away.


Again, you're amateur-psychologising your own fasehood to come up with
something even nastier.


Why are you so serious? I just wanted to see if you could lighten up a
little. Where I am at the sun is shining and weather is fine. I am
going to go for a walk and enjoy it.

Do you tell Irish jokes in an Irish bar and then tell to lighten up,
*****?


I wish that he would try it.
The offended Irish patrons might just supply him with a sorely needed
lesson on manners and humility.


Wall-to-Wall Counseling®


Complete with free dental remodelling.


And possibly body modification.


Body peircing, mainly.


Yes.

Precision made by Irish craftsmen with hygenic necks of Guinness
bottles, that make perfect holes for jewelery, (amongst other things).


Don't forget; chairs, boots, pool cues.....


All applied with all the exquisite craftsmanship that all discerning
sociopaths demand from a drunken Irish louts who they have soothed
with crass insults.
O'Thepain.


The Nutcracker. Sweet.


O'Really?


O'Reilly


Does he have crystal balls?


Rumour has it he used to.


Cossack dancing does that to a man.


I understood he was in a leaping contest over "one legged ponies" and he
slipped on the jump.

Oooh... Brings tears to yer eyes just thinking about it.
A bit like Jeb Bush, really.
Makes you wanna cry.
.
User: "stoney"

Title: Re: The historical Jesus 26 Oct 2006 01:32:44 PM
On Wed, 25 Oct 2006 10:43:43 +0930, Michael Gray
<fleetg@newsguy.spam.com> wrote in alt.atheism

On Tue, 24 Oct 2006 16:52:36 -0700, stoney <stoney@the.net> wrote:
- Refer: <1o9tj2d5bn4n3j9a6gen7atva89ela2a6m@4ax.com>

On Sun, 22 Oct 2006 09:06:38 +0930, Michael Gray
<fleetg@newsguy.spam.com> wrote in alt.atheism

[]

Do you tell Irish jokes in an Irish bar and then tell to lighten up,
*****?


I wish that he would try it.
The offended Irish patrons might just supply him with a sorely needed
lesson on manners and humility.


Wall-to-Wall Counseling®


Complete with free dental remodelling.


And possibly body modification.


Body peircing, mainly.


Yes.

Precision made by Irish craftsmen with hygenic necks of Guinness
bottles, that make perfect holes for jewelery, (amongst other things).


Don't forget; chairs, boots, pool cues.....


All applied with all the exquisite craftsmanship that all discerning
sociopaths demand from a drunken Irish louts who they have soothed
with crass insults.
O'Thepain.


The Nutcracker. Sweet.


O'Really?


O'Reilly


Does he have crystal balls?


Rumour has it he used to.


Cossack dancing does that to a man.


I understood he was in a leaping contest over "one legged ponies" and he
slipped on the jump.


Oooh... Brings tears to yer eyes just thinking about it.
A bit like Jeb Bush, really.
Makes you wanna cry.

Whaleing....
--
Fundies and trolls are cordially invited to
shove a wooden cross up their arses and rotate
at a high rate of speed. I trust you'll
be 'blessed' with a plethora of splinters.
.
User: "Michael Gray"

Title: Re: The historical Jesus 26 Oct 2006 08:19:17 PM
On Thu, 26 Oct 2006 11:32:44 -0700, stoney <stoney@the.net> wrote:
- Refer: <rov1k2dl7s93jbteg9qolfbsc87t3hqlvr@4ax.com>

On Wed, 25 Oct 2006 10:43:43 +0930, Michael Gray
<fleetg@newsguy.spam.com> wrote in alt.atheism

On Tue, 24 Oct 2006 16:52:36 -0700, stoney <stoney@the.net> wrote:
- Refer: <1o9tj2d5bn4n3j9a6gen7atva89ela2a6m@4ax.com>

On Sun, 22 Oct 2006 09:06:38 +0930, Michael Gray
<fleetg@newsguy.spam.com> wrote in alt.atheism


[]

Do you tell Irish jokes in an Irish bar and then tell to lighten up,
*****?


I wish that he would try it.
The offended Irish patrons might just supply him with a sorely needed
lesson on manners and humility.


Wall-to-Wall Counseling®


Complete with free dental remodelling.


And possibly body modification.


Body peircing, mainly.


Yes.

Precision made by Irish craftsmen with hygenic necks of Guinness
bottles, that make perfect holes for jewelery, (amongst other things).


Don't forget; chairs, boots, pool cues.....


All applied with all the exquisite craftsmanship that all discerning
sociopaths demand from a drunken Irish louts who they have soothed
with crass insults.
O'Thepain.


The Nutcracker. Sweet.


O'Really?


O'Reilly


Does he have crystal balls?


Rumour has it he used to.


Cossack dancing does that to a man.


I understood he was in a leaping contest over "one legged ponies" and he
slipped on the jump.


Oooh... Brings tears to yer eyes just thinking about it.
A bit like Jeb Bush, really.
Makes you wanna cry.


Whaleing....

Bob Marley, or Jonah Bush?
.
User: "stoney"

Title: Re: The historical Jesus 27 Oct 2006 06:51:59 PM
On Fri, 27 Oct 2006 10:49:17 +0930, Michael Gray
<fleetg@newsguy.spam.com> wrote in alt.atheism

On Thu, 26 Oct 2006 11:32:44 -0700, stoney <stoney@the.net> wrote:
- Refer: <rov1k2dl7s93jbteg9qolfbsc87t3hqlvr@4ax.com>

On Wed, 25 Oct 2006 10:43:43 +0930, Michael Gray
<fleetg@newsguy.spam.com> wrote in alt.atheism

On Tue, 24 Oct 2006 16:52:36 -0700, stoney <stoney@the.net> wrote:
- Refer: <1o9tj2d5bn4n3j9a6gen7atva89ela2a6m@4ax.com>

On Sun, 22 Oct 2006 09:06:38 +0930, Michael Gray
<fleetg@newsguy.spam.com> wrote in alt.atheism


[]

Do you tell Irish jokes in an Irish bar and then tell to lighten up,
*****?


I wish that he would try it.
The offended Irish patrons might just supply him with a sorely needed
lesson on manners and humility.


Wall-to-Wall Counseling®


Complete with free dental remodelling.


And possibly body modification.


Body peircing, mainly.


Yes.

Precision made by Irish craftsmen with hygenic necks of Guinness
bottles, that make perfect holes for jewelery, (amongst other things).


Don't forget; chairs, boots, pool cues.....


All applied with all the exquisite craftsmanship that all discerning
sociopaths demand from a drunken Irish louts who they have soothed
with crass insults.
O'Thepain.


The Nutcracker. Sweet.


O'Really?


O'Reilly


Does he have crystal balls?


Rumour has it he used to.


Cossack dancing does that to a man.


I understood he was in a leaping contest over "one legged ponies" and he
slipped on the jump.


Oooh... Brings tears to yer eyes just thinking about it.
A bit like Jeb Bush, really.
Makes you wanna cry.


Whaleing....


Bob Marley, or Jonah Bush?

Jonah Arc.
--
Fundies and trolls are cordially invited to
shove a wooden cross up their arses and rotate
at a high rate of speed. I trust you'll
be 'blessed' with a plethora of splinters.
.
User: "Michael Gray"

Title: Re: The historical Jesus 27 Oct 2006 09:06:14 PM
On Fri, 27 Oct 2006 16:51:59 -0700, stoney <stoney@the.net> wrote:
- Refer: <is65k213ar3vv66j38g95rb69ikeo522o2@4ax.com>

On Fri, 27 Oct 2006 10:49:17 +0930, Michael Gray
<fleetg@newsguy.spam.com> wrote in alt.atheism

On Thu, 26 Oct 2006 11:32:44 -0700, stoney <stoney@the.net> wrote:
- Refer: <rov1k2dl7s93jbteg9qolfbsc87t3hqlvr@4ax.com>

On Wed, 25 Oct 2006 10:43:43 +0930, Michael Gray
<fleetg@newsguy.spam.com> wrote in alt.atheism

On Tue, 24 Oct 2006 16:52:36 -0700, stoney <stoney@the.net> wrote:
- Refer: <1o9tj2d5bn4n3j9a6gen7atva89ela2a6m@4ax.com>

On Sun, 22 Oct 2006 09:06:38 +0930, Michael Gray
<fleetg@newsguy.spam.com> wrote in alt.atheism


[]

Do you tell Irish jokes in an Irish bar and then tell to lighten up,
*****?


I wish that he would try it.
The offended Irish patrons might just supply him with a sorely needed
lesson on manners and humility.


Wall-to-Wall Counseling®


Complete with free dental remodelling.


And possibly body modification.


Body peircing, mainly.


Yes.

Precision made by Irish craftsmen with hygenic necks of Guinness
bottles, that make perfect holes for jewelery, (amongst other things).


Don't forget; chairs, boots, pool cues.....


All applied with all the exquisite craftsmanship that all discerning
sociopaths demand from a drunken Irish louts who they have soothed
with crass insults.
O'Thepain.


The Nutcracker. Sweet.


O'Really?


O'Reilly


Does he have crystal balls?


Rumour has it he used to.


Cossack dancing does that to a man.


I understood he was in a leaping contest over "one legged ponies" and he
slipped on the jump.


Oooh... Brings tears to yer eyes just thinking about it.
A bit like Jeb Bush, really.
Makes you wanna cry.


Whaleing....


Bob Marley, or Jonah Bush?


Jonah Arc.

<7.2 on the Groucho scale!>
Was she burned at a Gopher-wood stake?
.
User: "Voracious"

Title: Re: The historical Jesus 28 Oct 2006 05:22:45 PM
Michael Gray wrote:

On Fri, 27 Oct 2006 16:51:59 -0700, stoney <stoney@the.net> wrote:
- Refer: <is65k213ar3vv66j38g95rb69ikeo522o2@4ax.com>

On Fri, 27 Oct 2006 10:49:17 +0930, Michael Gray
<fleetg@newsguy.spam.com> wrote in alt.atheism

On Thu, 26 Oct 2006 11:32:44 -0700, stoney <stoney@the.net> wrote:
- Refer: <rov1k2dl7s93jbteg9qolfbsc87t3hqlvr@4ax.com>

On Wed, 25 Oct 2006 10:43:43 +0930, Michael Gray
<fleetg@newsguy.spam.com> wrote in alt.atheism

On Tue, 24 Oct 2006 16:52:36 -0700, stoney <stoney@the.net> wrote:
- Refer: <1o9tj2d5bn4n3j9a6gen7atva89ela2a6m@4ax.com>

On Sun, 22 Oct 2006 09:06:38 +0930, Michael Gray
<fleetg@newsguy.spam.com> wrote in alt.atheism

[]

Do you tell Irish jokes in an Irish bar and then tell to lighten up,
*****?

I wish that he would try it.
The offended Irish patrons might just supply him with a sorely needed
lesson on manners and humility.

Wall-to-Wall Counseling®

Complete with free dental remodelling.

And possibly body modification.

Body peircing, mainly.

Yes.

Precision made by Irish craftsmen with hygenic necks of Guinness
bottles, that make perfect holes for jewelery, (amongst other things).

Don't forget; chairs, boots, pool cues.....

All applied with all the exquisite craftsmanship that all discerning
sociopaths demand from a drunken Irish louts who they have soothed
with crass insults.
O'Thepain.

The Nutcracker. Sweet.

O'Really?

O'Reilly

Does he have crystal balls?

Rumour has it he used to.

Cossack dancing does that to a man.

I understood he was in a leaping contest over "one legged ponies" and he
slipped on the jump.

Oooh... Brings tears to yer eyes just thinking about it.
A bit like Jeb Bush, really.
Makes you wanna cry.

Whaleing....

Bob Marley, or Jonah Bush?

Jonah Arc.


<7.2 on the Groucho scale!>

Was she burned at a Gopher-wood stake?

She was to have been the mother of the tribe of Asher!
Voracious
.
User: "Michael Gray"

Title: Re: The historical Jesus 28 Oct 2006 07:54:13 PM
On Sat, 28 Oct 2006 22:22:45 GMT, Voracious <null@void.org> wrote:
- Refer: <VKQ0h.16909$GR.2197@newssvr29.news.prodigy.net>

Michael Gray wrote:

On Fri, 27 Oct 2006 16:51:59 -0700, stoney <stoney@the.net> wrote:
- Refer: <is65k213ar3vv66j38g95rb69ikeo522o2@4ax.com>

On Fri, 27 Oct 2006 10:49:17 +0930, Michael Gray
<fleetg@newsguy.spam.com> wrote in alt.atheism

On Thu, 26 Oct 2006 11:32:44 -0700, stoney <stoney@the.net> wrote:
- Refer: <rov1k2dl7s93jbteg9qolfbsc87t3hqlvr@4ax.com>

On Wed, 25 Oct 2006 10:43:43 +0930, Michael Gray
<fleetg@newsguy.spam.com> wrote in alt.atheism

On Tue, 24 Oct 2006 16:52:36 -0700, stoney <stoney@the.net> wrote:
- Refer: <1o9tj2d5bn4n3j9a6gen7atva89ela2a6m@4ax.com>

On Sun, 22 Oct 2006 09:06:38 +0930, Michael Gray
<fleetg@newsguy.spam.com> wrote in alt.atheism

[]

Do you tell Irish jokes in an Irish bar and then tell to lighten up,
*****?

I wish that he would try it.
The offended Irish patrons might just supply him with a sorely needed
lesson on manners and humility.

Wall-to-Wall Counseling®

Complete with free dental remodelling.

And possibly body modification.

Body peircing, mainly.

Yes.

Precision made by Irish craftsmen with hygenic necks of Guinness
bottles, that make perfect holes for jewelery, (amongst other things).

Don't forget; chairs, boots, pool cues.....

All applied with all the exquisite craftsmanship that all discerning
sociopaths demand from a drunken Irish louts who they have soothed
with crass insults.
O'Thepain.

The Nutcracker. Sweet.

O'Really?

O'Reilly

Does he have crystal balls?

Rumour has it he used to.

Cossack dancing does that to a man.

I understood he was in a leaping contest over "one legged ponies" and he
slipped on the jump.

Oooh... Brings tears to yer eyes just thinking about it.
A bit like Jeb Bush, really.
Makes you wanna cry.

Whaleing....

Bob Marley, or Jonah Bush?

Jonah Arc.


<7.2 on the Groucho scale!>

Was she burned at a Gopher-wood stake?


She was to have been the mother of the tribe of Asher!

Have we stumbled upon another DaVinci code?
.
User: "stoney"

Title: Re: The historical Jesus 29 Oct 2006 04:52:23 PM
On Sun, 29 Oct 2006 11:24:13 +1030, Michael Gray
<fleetg@newsguy.spam.com> wrote in alt.atheism

On Sat, 28 Oct 2006 22:22:45 GMT, Voracious <null@void.org> wrote:
- Refer: <VKQ0h.16909$GR.2197@newssvr29.news.prodigy.net>

[]

Do you tell Irish jokes in an Irish bar and then tell to lighten up,
*****?

I wish that he would try it.
The offended Irish patrons might just supply him with a sorely needed
lesson on manners and humility.

Wall-to-Wall Counseling®

Complete with free dental remodelling.

And possibly body modification.

Body peircing, mainly.

Yes.

Precision made by Irish craftsmen with hygenic necks of Guinness
bottles, that make perfect holes for jewelery, (amongst other things).

Don't forget; chairs, boots, pool cues.....

All applied with all the exquisite craftsmanship that all discerning
sociopaths demand from a drunken Irish louts who they have soothed
with crass insults.
O'Thepain.

The Nutcracker. Sweet.

O'Really?

O'Reilly

Does he have crystal balls?

Rumour has it he used to.

Cossack dancing does that to a man.

I understood he was in a leaping contest over "one legged ponies" and he
slipped on the jump.

Oooh... Brings tears to yer eyes just thinking about it.
A bit like Jeb Bush, really.
Makes you wanna cry.

Whaleing....

Bob Marley, or Jonah Bush?

Jonah Arc.


<7.2 on the Groucho scale!>

Was she burned at a Gopher-wood stake?


She was to have been the mother of the tribe of Asher!


Have we stumbled upon another DaVinci code?

Code Scrambled.
--
Fundies and trolls are cordially invited to
shove a wooden cross up their arses and rotate
at a high rate of speed. I trust you'll
be 'blessed' with a plethora of splinters.
.



User: "stoney"

Title: Re: The historical Jesus 29 Oct 2006 04:51:28 PM
On Sat, 28 Oct 2006 11:36:14 +0930, Michael Gray
<fleetg@newsguy.spam.com> wrote in alt.atheism

On Fri, 27 Oct 2006 16:51:59 -0700, stoney <stoney@the.net> wrote:
- Refer: <is65k213ar3vv66j38g95rb69ikeo522o2@4ax.com>

On Fri, 27 Oct 2006 10:49:17 +0930, Michael Gray
<fleetg@newsguy.spam.com> wrote in alt.atheism

[]

Do you tell Irish jokes in an Irish bar and then tell to lighten up,
*****?


I wish that he would try it.
The offended Irish patrons might just supply him with a sorely needed
lesson on manners and humility.


Wall-to-Wall Counseling®


Complete with free dental remodelling.


And possibly body modification.


Body peircing, mainly.


Yes.

Precision made by Irish craftsmen with hygenic necks of Guinness
bottles, that make perfect holes for jewelery, (amongst other things).


Don't forget; chairs, boots, pool cues.....


All applied with all the exquisite craftsmanship that all discerning
sociopaths demand from a drunken Irish louts who they have soothed
with crass insults.
O'Thepain.


The Nutcracker. Sweet.


O'Really?


O'Reilly


Does he have crystal balls?


Rumour has it he used to.


Cossack dancing does that to a man.


I understood he was in a leaping contest over "one legged ponies" and he
slipped on the jump.


Oooh... Brings tears to yer eyes just thinking about it.
A bit like Jeb Bush, really.
Makes you wanna cry.


Whaleing....


Bob Marley, or Jonah Bush?


Jonah Arc.


<7.2 on the Groucho scale!>

Hit the Marx.

Was she burned at a Gopher-wood stake?

Via burning bush.
--
Fundies and trolls are cordially invited to
shove a wooden cross up their arses and rotate
at a high rate of speed. I trust you'll
be 'blessed' with a plethora of splinters.
.










User: "stoney"

Title: Re: The historical Jesus 11 Oct 2006 08:40:37 PM
On Wed, 11 Oct 2006 14:06:18 -0400, Christopher A. Lee
<calee@optonline.net> wrote in alt.atheism

On 11 Oct 2006 10:44:47 -0700,

wrote:



You don't understand humor do you? Do you find at times everyone is
laughing but you?


Idiot.

Don't worry about it. It is paranoid to think that are laughing at
you. Unless of course, they are laughing at you. The key is being
able to determine why they are laughing at you.


You wish.


Are you really so joyless you can enjoy a little humor? Why are you
wasting time hating so much? Do something positive with your life.
All this negativity is just bringing you down. Little things should be
like water on a Duck's back. Ignore it and let if fall away.


Again, you're amateur-psychologising your own fasehood to come up with
something even nastier.

Jimmy's a common Christian *****.
--
Fundies and trolls are cordially invited to
shove a wooden cross up their arses and rotate
at a high rate of speed. I trust you'll
be 'blessed' with a plethora of splinters.
.

User: "Gordon Hill"

Title: Re: The historical Jesus 04 Oct 2006 03:17:10 PM
Lars Eighner wrote:

In our last episode, <1159986679.306485.277210@m7g2000cwm.googlegroups.com>,
the lovely and talented Black-Phoenix-Night broadcast on alt.atheism:

Yet, strangely, some say that Jesus never lived-that he is, in
effect, a creation of some first-century men. Answering such skeptics,
the respected historian Will Durant argued: "That a few simple men
should in one generation have invented so powerful and appealing a
personality, so lofty an ethic and so inspiring a vision of human
brotherhood, would be a miracle far more incredible than any recorded
in the Gospels."


But of course Jesus was not invented in one generation. The Greeks had been
working on aspects of this religion for hundreds of years,...

....as had the Jews, Hindus, Confucians and others I suspect, but
then...

and of course the
obviously mythological parts (human mother, god father, etc.) were very much
older. You might as well say the invention of the automobile in one
generation (around the turn of the last century) was a miracle.

It wasn't? Seems intelligently designed to me... and evolved.

And it would
be, I suppose, if it had been invented of whole cloth. But it wasn't. Lots
of the ground work in metalurgy, mechanics, and so forth had been done over
many generations...

....all miracles to an engineer like me...

So it was with the religion a Hellenistic Jew -- Paul or
someone like him - invented. Even then, it took several centuries to get
the story straight as contradictions between the so-called "gospels" clearly
reveal....

There qare still 200,000 to 400,000 contradictions among the "source
documents for the "new Testament", most of them minor, but some of them
major.

... Someone discovers an old Hebrew text that predicts where the
messiah will be born -- opps, the story has to be patched up by inventing
a census which never happened. The astrology doesn't work out quite right
-- opps, the story has to be patched up to change the date. Little wonder
christians today are such liars -- it is part of their religion.

Ask yourself: Could a person who never lived have affected human
history so remarkably?

Actually it was Constantine who made the big splash in the name of
Jesus.

Of course not. A person who never existed could not affect anything.
But the many liars telling many lies could, and they did. Sort of like
the Bush administration.

Would you say the Bush administration is appropriately named?
The Jesus of history is so unlike the Jesus of the Christian
exclusivists.

--
Lars Eighner *Atheist #1965*

<http://larseighner.com/>
What a f iend we have in Jesus!

.
User: ""

Title: Re: The historical Jesus 11 Oct 2006 12:31:36 PM

And it would
be, I suppose, if it had been invented of whole cloth. But it wasn't. Lots
of the ground work in metalurgy, mechanics, and so forth had been done over
many generations...


...all miracles to an engineer like me...

So it was with the religion a Hellenistic Jew -- Paul or
someone like him - invented. Even then, it took several centuries to get
the story straight as contradictions between the so-called "gospels" clearly
reveal....


There qare still 200,000 to 400,000 contradictions among the "source
documents for the "new Testament", most of them minor, but some of them
major.

For an engineer you are surprisely inaccurate. Is this the normal
tolerance of your work. The list of minor deviations between the
source documents is more like 5,000. None of them are important. No
doctrine or story is affected. You need to do more research.

... Someone discovers an old Hebrew text that predicts where the
messiah will be born -- opps, the story has to be patched up by inventing
a census which never happened. The astrology doesn't work out quite right
-- opps, the story has to be patched up to change the date. Little wonder
christians today are such liars -- it is part of their religion.

Ask yourself: Could a person who never lived have affected human
history so remarkably?


Actually it was Constantine who made the big splash in the name of
Jesus.

Of course not. A person who never existed could not affect anything.
But the many liars telling many lies could, and they did. Sort of like
the Bush administration.


Would you say the Bush administration is appropriately named?

The Jesus of history is so unlike the Jesus of the Christian
exclusivists.

Almost everything we know about Jesus was written by Christians.
Consequently your comment about the difference between the Historical
Jesus and the "Christian exclusiviss" is baffling.
Jimmy Boy
.
User: "Darrell Stec"

Title: Re: The historical Jesus 11 Oct 2006 01:38:10 PM
After serious contemplation, on or about Wednesday 11 October 2006 1:31
pm
perhaps from
wrote:


And it would
be, I suppose, if it had been invented of whole cloth. But it
wasn't. Lots of the ground work in metalurgy, mechanics, and so
forth had been done over many generations...


...all miracles to an engineer like me...

So it was with the religion a Hellenistic Jew -- Paul or
someone like him - invented. Even then, it took several centuries
to get the story straight as contradictions between the so-called
"gospels" clearly reveal....


There qare still 200,000 to 400,000 contradictions among the "source
documents for the "new Testament", most of them minor, but some of
them major.


For an engineer you are surprisely inaccurate. Is this the normal
tolerance of your work. The list of minor deviations between the
source documents is more like 5,000. None of them are important. No
doctrine or story is affected. You need to do more research.


... Someone discovers an old Hebrew text that predicts where the
messiah will be born -- opps, the story has to be patched up by
inventing
a census which never happened. The astrology doesn't work out
quite right
-- opps, the story has to be patched up to change the date. Little
wonder christians today are such liars -- it is part of their
religion.

Ask yourself: Could a person who never lived have affected human
history so remarkably?


Actually it was Constantine who made the big splash in the name of
Jesus.

Of course not. A person who never existed could not affect
anything.
But the many liars telling many lies could, and they did. Sort of
like the Bush administration.


Would you say the Bush administration is appropriately named?

The Jesus of history is so unlike the Jesus of the Christian
exclusivists.



Almost everything we know about Jesus was written by Christians.
Consequently your comment about the difference between the Historical
Jesus and the "Christian exclusiviss" is baffling.

The biggest problem is that YOU personally have know idea of what that
ALL encompasses. If you did, you would know that there were many, many
different Christian theologies and beliefs in the beginning years, all
with their supporting texts (which differed tremendously), and all
could quote scripture in support of those beliefs.
Some believed Jesus to be a specter. Others believed him to be nothing
more than a man. Still other believed him to have had godhood
conferred upon him during his baptism, and still another group upon his
crucifixion. Some thought him to be only and totally Jewish and
rejected the Greek philosophical elements, while some rejected his
Judaism in totality (calling the god of the Old Testament abjectly
evil) while embracing Hellenistic thought.
You are betrayed by your ignorance. The emperor has no clothes.


Jimmy Boy

--
Later,
Darrell Stec

Webpage Sorcery
http://webpagesorcery.com
We Put the Magic in Your Webpages
.
User: ""

Title: Re: The historical Jesus 11 Oct 2006 02:46:58 PM
Darrell Stec wrote:

After serious contemplation, on or about Wednesday 11 October 2006 1:31
pm

perhaps from
wrote:


And it would
be, I suppose, if it had been invented of whole cloth. But it
wasn't. Lots of the ground work in metalurgy, mechanics, and so
forth had been done over many generations...


...all miracles to an engineer like me...

So it was with the religion a Hellenistic Jew -- Paul or
someone like him - invented. Even then, it took several centuries
to get the story straight as contradictions between the so-called
"gospels" clearly reveal....


There qare still 200,000 to 400,000 contradictions among the "source
documents for the "new Testament", most of them minor, but some of
them major.


For an engineer you are surprisely inaccurate. Is this the normal
tolerance of your work. The list of minor deviations between the
source documents is more like 5,000. None of them are important. No
doctrine or story is affected. You need to do more research.


... Someone discovers an old Hebrew text that predicts where the
messiah will be born -- opps, the story has to be patched up by
inventing
a census which never happened. The astrology doesn't work out
quite right
-- opps, the story has to be patched up to change the date. Little
wonder christians today are such liars -- it is part of their
religion.

Ask yourself: Could a person who never lived have affected human
history so remarkably?


Actually it was Constantine who made the big splash in the name of
Jesus.

Of course not. A person who never existed could not affect
anything.
But the many liars telling many lies could, and they did. Sort of
like the Bush administration.


Would you say the Bush administration is appropriately named?

The Jesus of history is so unlike the Jesus of the Christian
exclusivists.



Almost everything we know about Jesus was written by Christians.
Consequently your comment about the difference between the Historical
Jesus and the "Christian exclusiviss" is baffling.



The biggest problem is that YOU personally have know idea of what that
ALL encompasses. If you did, you would know that there were many, many
different Christian theologies and beliefs in the beginning years, all
with their supporting texts (which differed tremendously), and all
could quote scripture in support of those beliefs.

Some believed Jesus to be a specter. Others believed him to be nothing
more than a man. Still other believed him to have had godhood
conferred upon him during his baptism, and still another group upon his
crucifixion. Some thought him to be only and totally Jewish and
rejected the Greek philosophical elements, while some rejected his
Judaism in totality (calling the god of the Old Testament abjectly
evil) while embracing Hellenistic thought.

You are betrayed by your ignorance. The emperor has no clothes.

Your reply is totally off topic. It has nothing to do with what I
said. You are changing the subject to obscure what I wrote.
Jimmy Boy
.


User: "Al Klein"

Title: Re: The historical Jesus 11 Oct 2006 07:21:45 PM
On 11 Oct 2006 10:31:36 -0700,
wrote:

For an engineer you are surprisely inaccurate. Is this the normal
tolerance of your work. The list of minor deviations between the
source documents is more like 5,000. None of them are important.

So it's possible to create a time line for the morning of the
resurrection?

No doctrine or story is affected.

It goes to credibility. If you make an extraordinary claim you have
to present extraordinary evidence. But if you make an extraordinary
claim and can't even get the story straight? It points to the story
having been written by committee, with the writers not comparing
notes. That's how historical research works.
--
rukbat at optonline dot net
"I've heard the call. I believe God wants me to run for president."
- George W. Bush, quoted in George Magazine, September, 2000
"God gave the savior to the German people. We have faith,
deep and unshakeable faith, that he was sent to us by
God to save Germany."
- Hermann Goering, speaking of Hitler
(random sig, produced by SigChanger)
.



User: "bk"

Title: Re: The historical Jesus 04 Oct 2006 03:11:15 PM
Lars Eighner wrote:

In our last episode, <1159986679.306485.277210@m7g2000cwm.googlegroups.com>,
the lovely and talented Black-Phoenix-Night broadcast on alt.atheism:

[...]


But of course Jesus was not invented in one generation. The Greeks had been
working on aspects of this religion for hundreds of years, and of course the
obviously mythological parts (human mother, god father, etc.) were very much
older. You might as well say the invention of the automobile in one
generation (around the turn of the last century) was a miracle. And it would
be, I suppose, if it had been invented of whole cloth. But it wasn't. Lots
of the ground work in metalurgy, mechanics, and so forth had been done over
many generations. So it was with the religion a Hellenistic Jew -- Paul or
someone like him - invented. Even then, it took several centuries to get
the story straight as contradictions between the so-called "gospels" clearly
reveal.

What a relief that they couldn't get it straight. Whew.

Someone discovers an old Hebrew text that predicts where the
messiah will be born -- opps, the story has to be patched up by inventing
a census which never happened. The astrology doesn't work out quite right
-- opps, the story has to be patched up to change the date. Little wonder
christians today are such liars -- it is part of their religion.

Many absurdities in the bible. Some make sense in the context of
producing fear and controlling the masses; but what of others, like the
fickle violence in the OT? The way animals and handicapped people are
treated? Some of it doesn't make a whit of sense even trying to clue
into their motives.
bk
.

User: "Pastor Kutchie"

Title: Re: The historical Jesus 04 Oct 2006 02:25:45 PM
Jabbertroll wrote:

Yet, strangely, some say that Jesus never lived-that he is, in
effect, a creation of some first-century men. Answering such skeptics,
the respected historian Will Durant argued: "That a few simple men
should in one generation have invented so powerful and appealing a
personality, so lofty an ethic and so inspiring a vision of human
brotherhood, would be a miracle far more incredible than any recorded
in the Gospels."

I fucking despise Jehovahs Witnesses. Why? Because they are such
barefaced liars and dissemblers. If you have the shamelessness to be as
dishonest as the above passage, you have no morals at all.
.

User: "stoney"

Title: Re: The historical Jesus 08 Oct 2006 05:26:02 PM
On 4 Oct 2006 11:31:19 -0700, "Black-Phoenix-Night" <Xabriol@gmail.com>
wrote in alt.atheism

Yet, strangely, some say that Jesus never lived-that he is, in
effect, a creation of some first-century men.

That's correct, ***** Antonia.
--
Fundies and trolls are cordially invited to
shove a wooden cross up their arses and rotate
at a high rate of speed. I trust you'll
be 'blessed' with a plethora of splinters.
.
User: "Darrell Stec"

Title: Re: The historical Jesus 08 Oct 2006 06:12:20 PM
After serious contemplation, on or about Sunday 08 October 2006 6:26 pm
stoney perhaps from
wrote:

On 4 Oct 2006 11:31:19 -0700, "Black-Phoenix-Night"
<Xabriol@gmail.com> wrote in alt.atheism

Yet, strangely, some say that Jesus never lived-that he is, in
effect, a creation of some first-century men.


That's correct, ***** Antonia.




Actually, I doubt that is true. There is nothing on which to hang the
hat on to say the New Testament Joshua is a creation of some first
century men. Looking at the clues in the texts themselves, it seems
the NT is the creation of some second, third and fourth century men.
Paul, for instance is almost universally accepted to be from the first
century. However, except for one phrase about an incident that was
stated to take place in the first century and which has evidence for
being an interpolation, and by some an outright lie by the author of
the Pauline epistles (just one of many from a man that basically states
he lies when convenient), there is nothing in all the rest of the text
to tie Paul to the first century.
The gospels likewise have anachronisms which indicate they were written
after 134 CE. Revelations describes the eruption of Mt. Vesuvius and
therefore could not have been written before the end of the first
century or beginning of the second century.
The Old Testament quotes were from the Greek Septuagint rather than the
Hebrew version and therefore according to Josephus and some early
Church Fathers who maintain nothing except the Pentateuch and a few
Psalms, was written until after the first century, could only be a
second or third century fabrication.
I agree Joshua was a creation, but I think he was a creation of the
mid-to-late second or third centuries.
--
Later,
Darrell Stec

Webpage Sorcery
http://webpagesorcery.com
We Put the Magic in Your Webpages
.

User: "Michael Gray"

Title: Re: The historical Jesus 08 Oct 2006 05:59:17 PM
On Sun, 08 Oct 2006 15:26:02 -0700, stoney <stoney@the.net> wrote:
- Refer: <jmuii29leclurp1s0jul5jf05gei5anv4p@4ax.com>

On 4 Oct 2006 11:31:19 -0700, "Black-Phoenix-Night" <Xabriol@gmail.com>
wrote in alt.atheism

Yet, strangely, some say that Jesus never lived-that he is, in
effect, a creation of some first-century men.


That's correct, ***** Antonia.

But he can't even get that right!
It's second century forgers.
.
User: "stoney"

Title: Re: The historical Jesus 09 Oct 2006 04:41:54 PM
On Mon, 09 Oct 2006 08:29:17 +0930, Michael Gray
<fleetg@newsguy.spam.com> wrote in alt.atheism

On Sun, 08 Oct 2006 15:26:02 -0700, stoney <stoney@the.net> wrote:
- Refer: <jmuii29leclurp1s0jul5jf05gei5anv4p@4ax.com>

On 4 Oct 2006 11:31:19 -0700, "Black-Phoenix-Night" <Xabriol@gmail.com>
wrote in alt.atheism

Yet, strangely, some say that Jesus never lived-that he is, in
effect, a creation of some first-century men.


That's correct, ***** Antonia.


But he can't even get that right!
It's second century forgers.

I cut him lots of slack.
--
Fundies and trolls are cordially invited to
shove a wooden cross up their arses and rotate
at a high rate of speed. I trust you'll
be 'blessed' with a plethora of splinters.
.
User: "Michael Gray"

Title: Re: The historical Jesus 10 Oct 2006 03:43:20 AM
On Mon, 09 Oct 2006 14:41:54 -0700, stoney <stoney@the.net> wrote:
- Refer: <mggli255t36uho8h5q572p0fs5f2kuh6dt@4ax.com>

On Mon, 09 Oct 2006 08:29:17 +0930, Michael Gray
<fleetg@newsguy.spam.com> wrote in alt.atheism

On Sun, 08 Oct 2006 15:26:02 -0700, stoney <stoney@the.net> wrote:
- Refer: <jmuii29leclurp1s0jul5jf05gei5anv4p@4ax.com>

On 4 Oct 2006 11:31:19 -0700, "Black-Phoenix-Night" <Xabriol@gmail.com>
wrote in alt.atheism

Yet, strangely, some say that Jesus never lived-that he is, in
effect, a creation of some first-century men.


That's correct, ***** Antonia.


But he can't even get that right!
It's second century forgers.


I cut him lots of slack.

You do not jest!
'Tis a pity that his lack doth not cut him back.
.
User: "stoney"

Title: Re: The historical Jesus 10 Oct 2006 06:34:49 PM
On Tue, 10 Oct 2006 18:13:20 +0930, Michael Gray
<fleetg@newsguy.spam.com> wrote in alt.atheism

On Mon, 09 Oct 2006 14:41:54 -0700, stoney <stoney@the.net> wrote:
- Refer: <mggli255t36uho8h5q572p0fs5f2kuh6dt@4ax.com>

On Mon, 09 Oct 2006 08:29:17 +0930, Michael Gray
<fleetg@newsguy.spam.com> wrote in alt.atheism

On Sun, 08 Oct 2006 15:26:02 -0700, stoney <stoney@the.net> wrote:
- Refer: <jmuii29leclurp1s0jul5jf05gei5anv4p@4ax.com>

On 4 Oct 2006 11:31:19 -0700, "Black-Phoenix-Night" <Xabriol@gmail.com>
wrote in alt.atheism

Yet, strangely, some say that Jesus never lived-that he is, in
effect, a creation of some first-century men.


That's correct, ***** Antonia.


But he can't even get that right!
It's second century forgers.


I cut him lots of slack.


You do not jest!
'Tis a pity that his lack doth not cut him back.

Indubidably.
--
Fundies and trolls are cordially invited to
shove a wooden cross up their arses and rotate
at a high rate of speed. I trust you'll
be 'blessed' with a plethora of splinters.
.





User: "MarkA"

Title: Re: The historical Jesus 05 Oct 2006 08:59:57 PM
On Wed, 04 Oct 2006 11:31:19 -0700, Black-Phoenix-Night wrote:

Yet, strangely, some say that Jesus never lived-that he is, in effect, a
creation of some first-century men. Answering such skeptics, the respected
historian Will Durant argued: "That a few simple men should in one
generation have invented so powerful and appealing a personality, so lofty
an ethic and so inspiring a vision of human brotherhood, would be a
miracle far more incredible than any recorded in the Gospels."

The humanist values attributed to Jesus have been evolving over hundreds
of years. He was not the creation of "a few simple men in one
generation." He was the creation of all of humanity over many
generations.

Ask yourself: Could a person who never lived have affected human history
so remarkably? The reference work The Historians' History of the World

Jesus didn't affect history; his followers did. Every mythical god has
affected history in some way.

observed: "The historical result of [Jesus'] activities was more
momentous, even from a strictly secular standpoint, than the deeds of
any other character of history. A new era, recognised by the chief
civilisations of the world, dates from his birth."

....but only a hundred years after the fact.

<snip lame attempts to find contemporary accounts of Jesus' life & times>
--
MarkA
(this space accidentally filled in)
.

User: ""

Title: Re: The historical Jesus 06 Oct 2006 12:32:41 PM
Salutations!

Essentially, however, all that is known about Jesus was recorded by his
first-century followers. Their reports have been preserved in the
Gospels-Bible books written by Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John. What do
these accounts say regarding the identity of Jesus?

I believe the answer depends upon one's particular reading of the
gospels. For instance, I am very attracted to Dr Geza Vermes's
reading of the gospel accounts. Nevertheless, the daunting task of
unearthing the historical Jesus in the gospels is a difficult one. It
needs to be realized that the claim to "actual understanding" of the
"true" Jesus is simply false, due to the hermeneutical problem. A
further enigma is just who Jesus really was - if he existed. While I
am entirely optimistic that historians will shed light on a possible
historical picture of 1st century Judea, I remain reserved that the
evidential framework we possess today suffices for an *affirmative*
position in any direction. However, I would like to state, and not
argue, that we can certainly evince a plausible account of Jesus via
abduction. I am reminded of an interesting passage by Gilbert Harman:
"In making this inference, one infers from the fact that a certain
hypothesis would explain the evidence, to the truth of that hypothesis.
In general, there will be several hypotheses which might explain the
evidence, so one must be able to reject all such alternative hypotheses
before one is warranted in making the inference. Thus one infers, from
the premise that a given hypothesis would provide a "better"
explanation for the evidence than would any other hypothesis, to the
conclusion that the given hypothesis is true." - 'Inference to the
Best Explanation,' The Philosophical Review 74 (1965), pg 88
This is not to suggest that Jesus is more believable than not, quite
the contrary. What I do imply here is that our abduction inferences can
emit a workable picture.
Anyhow, reconstructive hermeneutics, as espoused by Schleiermacher, are
insufficient. The historical *Jesus*, in my opinion, cannot be
restored to his original context, which is gone from us forever. I am
akin to the Georg Gadamer quip (paraphrase) that reason itself is
historical, and we always "project" our own understanding on events.
All understanding is self understanding. There is no getting "back"
to the original picture of Jesus. Faith is certainly a live option
here.
I am not a Christian, but here is an interesting article by the
Christian philosopher William Lane Craig: "Rediscovering the Historical
Jesus: The Presuppositions and Pressumptions of the Jesus Seminar."
Faith and Mission 15 (1998): 3-15. (Available online here:
http://www.leaderu.com/offices/billcraig/docs/rediscover1.html )
best wishes,
Derrick Mohammad Abdul-Hakim
.


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