| Topic: |
Religions > Atheism |
| User: |
"Patriotboy is Fair and Balanced" |
| Date: |
11 Nov 2003 01:33:00 AM |
| Object: |
The man who should be president. |
Excerpts from Gore's speech on Sunday. Read or view it in its
entirety at http://www.moveon.org/gore/speech2.html
"President Bush is claiming the unilateral right to do that to any
American citizen he believes is an 'enemy combatant.' Those are the
magic words. If the President alone decides that those two words
accurately describe someone, then that person can be immediately
locked up and held incommunicado for as long as the President wants,
with no court having the right to determine whether the facts
actually justify his imprisonment.
Now if the President makes a mistake, or is given faulty information
by somebody working for him, and locks up the wrong person, then it's
almost impossible for that person to prove his innocence – because he
can’t talk to a lawyer or his family or anyone else and he doesn’t
even have the right to know what specific crime he is accused of
committing. So a constitutional right to liberty and the pursuit of
happiness that we used to think of in an old-fashioned way as
'inalienable' can now be instantly stripped from any American by the
President with no meaningful review by any other branch of
government.
How do we feel about that? Is that OK?
Here's another recent change in our civil liberties: Now, if it wants
to, the federal government has the right to monitor every website you
go to on the internet, keep a list of everyone you send email to or
receive email from and everyone who you call on the telephone or who
calls you – and they don't even have to show probable cause that
you've done anything wrong. Nor do they ever have to report to any
court on what they're doing with the information. Moreover, there are
precious few safeguards to keep them from reading the content of all
your email.
Everybody fine with that?
If so, what about this next change?
For America's first 212 years, it used to be that if the police
wanted to search your house, they had to be able to convince an
independent judge to give them a search warrant and then (with rare
exceptions) they had to go bang on your door and yell, 'Open up!'
Then, if you didn't quickly open up, they could knock the door down.
Also, if they seized anything, they had to leave a list explaining
what they had taken. That way, if it was all a terrible mistake (as
it sometimes is) you could go and get your stuff back.
But that's all changed now. Starting two years ago, federal agents
were given broad new statutory authority by the Patriot Act to 'sneak
and peak' in non-terrorism cases. They can secretly enter your home
with no warning -- whether you are there or not -- and they can wait
for months before telling you they were there. And it doesn't have to
have any relationship to terrorism whatsoever. It applies to any
garden-variety crime. And the new law makes it very easy to get
around the need for a traditional warrant -- simply by saying that
searching your house might have some connection (even a remote one)
to the investigation of some agent of a foreign power. Then they can
go to another court, a secret court, that more or less has to give
them a warrant whenever they ask.
Three weeks ago, in a speech at FBI Headquarters, President Bush went
even further and formally proposed that the Attorney General be
allowed to authorize subpoenas by administrative order, without the
need for a warrant from any court.
What about the right to consult a lawyer if you're arrested? Is that
important?
Attorney General Ashcroft has issued regulations authorizing the
secret monitoring of attorney-client conversations on his say-so
alone; bypassing procedures for obtaining prior judicial review for
such monitoring in the rare instances when it was permitted in the
past. Now, whoever is in custody has to assume that the government is
always listening to consultations between them and their lawyers.
Does it matter if the government listens in on everything you say to
your lawyer? Is that Ok?
Or, to take another change -- and thanks to the librarians, more
people know about this one -- the FBI now has the right to go into
any library and ask for the records of everybody who has used the
library and get a list of who is reading what. Similarly, the FBI can
demand all the records of banks, colleges, hotels, hospitals, credit-
card companies, and many more kinds of companies. And these changes
are only the beginning. Just last week, Attorney General Ashcroft
issued brand new guidelines permitting FBI agents to run credit
checks and background checks and gather other information about
anyone who is 'of investigatory interest,' - meaning anyone the agent
thinks is suspicious - without any evidence of criminal behavior.
So, is that fine with everyone?"
"I want to challenge the Bush Administration's implicit assumption
that we have to give up many of our traditional freedoms in order to
be safe from terrorists.
Because it is simply not true.
In fact, in my opinion, it makes no more sense to launch an assault
on our civil liberties as the best way to get at terrorists than it
did to launch an invasion of Iraq as the best way to get at Osama Bin
Laden.
In both cases, the Administration has attacked the wrong target.
In both cases they have recklessly put our country in grave and
unnecessary danger, while avoiding and neglecting obvious and much
more important challenges that would actually help to protect the
country.
In both cases, the administration has fostered false impressions and
misled the nation with superficial, emotional and manipulative
presentations that are not worthy of American Democracy.
In both cases they have exploited public fears for partisan political
gain and postured themselves as bold defenders of our country while
actually weakening not strengthening America.
In both cases, they have used unprecedented secrecy and deception in
order to avoid accountability to the Congress, the Courts, the press
and the people."
"But instead, this Administration is seeking to conduct its work in
secret even as it demands broad unfettered access to personal
information about American citizens. Under the rubric of protecting
national security, they have obtained new powers to gather
information from citizens and to keep it secret. Yet at the same time
they themselves refuse to disclose information that is highly
relevant to the war against terrorism.
They are even arrogantly refusing to provide information about 9/11
that is in their possession to the 9/11 Commission -- the lawful
investigative body charged with examining not only the performance of
the Bush Administration, but also the actions of the prior
Administration in which I served. The whole point is to learn all we
can about preventing future terrorist attacks"
"In an even more brazen move, more than two years after they rounded
up over 1,200 individuals of Arab descent, they still refuse to
release the names of the individuals they detained, even though
virtually every one of those arrested has been "cleared" by the FBI
of any connection to terrorism and there is absolutely no national
security justification for keeping the names secret. Yet at the same
time, White House officials themselves leaked the name of a CIA
operative serving the country, in clear violation of the law, in an
effort to get at her husband, who had angered them by disclosing that
the President had relied on forged evidence in his state of the union
address as part of his effort to convince the country that Saddam
Hussein was on the verge of building nuclear weapons.
And even as they claim the right to see the private bank records of
every American, they are adopting a new policy on the Freedom of
Information Act that actively encourages federal agencies to fully
consider all potential reasons for non-disclosure regardless of
whether the disclosure would be harmful. In other words, the federal
government will now actively resist complying with ANY request for
information.
Moreover, they have established a new exemption that enables them to
refuse the release to the press and the public of important health,
safety and environmental information submitted to the government by
businesses -- merely by calling it 'critical infrastructure.'
By closely guarding information about their own behavior, they are
dismantling a fundamental element of our system of checks and
balances. Because so long as the government's actions are secret,
they cannot be held accountable. A government for the people and by
the people must be transparent to the people."
"The constant violations of civil liberties promote the false
impression that these violations are necessary in order to take every
precaution against another terrorist attack. But the simple truth is
that the vast majority of the violations have not benefited our
security at all; to the contrary, they hurt our security."
"Rather than leading with a call to courage, this Administration has
chosen to lead us by inciting fear."
"But President Bush has stretched this new practical imperative
beyond what is healthy for our democracy. Indeed, one of the ways he
has tried to maximize his power within the American system has been
by constantly emphasizing his role as Commander-in-Chief, far more
than any previous President -- assuming it as often and as visibly as
he can, and bringing it into the domestic arena and conflating it
with his other roles: as head of government and head of state -- and
especially with his political role as head of the Republican Party.
Indeed, the most worrisome new factor, in my view, is the aggressive
ideological approach of the current administration, which seems
determined to use fear as a political tool to consolidate its power
and to escape any accountability for its use. Just as unilateralism
and dominance are the guiding principles of their disastrous approach
to international relations, they are also the guiding impulses of the
administration's approach to domestic politics. They are impatient
with any constraints on the exercise of power overseas -- whether
from our allies, the UN, or international law. And in the same way,
they are impatient with any obstacles to their use of power at home -
- whether from Congress, the Courts, the press, or the rule of law."
"Incredibly, this Administration has attempted to compromise the most
precious rights that Americahas stood for all over the world for more
than 200 years: due process, equal treatment under the law, the
dignity of the individual, freedom from unreasonable search and
seizure, freedom from promiscuous government surveillance. And in the
name of security, this Administration has attempted to relegate the
Congress and the Courts to the sidelines and replace our democratic
system of checks and balances with an unaccountable Executive. And
all the while, it has constantly angled for new ways to exploit the
sense of crisis for partisan gain and political dominance. How dare
they!"
"The question before us could be of no greater moment: will we
continue to live as a people under the rule of law as embodied in our
Constitution? Or will we fail future generations, by leaving them a
Constitution far diminished from the charter of liberty we have
inherited from our forebears? Our choice is clear."
--
"Bush told his senior aides Tuesday that he "didn't want to see any
stories" quoting unnamed administration officials in the media
anymore, and that if he did, there would be consequences, said a
senior administration official who asked that his name not be used."
--Joseph L. Galloway and James Kuhnhenn, "Bush orders officials to
stop the leaks," Philadelphia Inquirer, Oct. 16, 2003.
Tim
"Fair and Balanced"
.
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| User: "David Moffitt moffitcl@ prodigy.net" |
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| Title: Re: The man who should be president. |
11 Nov 2003 09:04:20 AM |
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"Patriotboy is Fair and Balanced" <tim@somecallme.net> wrote in message
news:Xns942FEFC3F1757timsomecallme@216.168.3.44...
Excerpts from Gore's speech on Sunday. Read or view it in its
entirety at http://www.moveon.org/gore/speech2.html
%%%% Albert Gore Junior. I remember him well! The man who not only his home
town rejected for President but the whole state of Tennessee. You have to be
real sleeze bag for your own neighbors to reject you. Al are you lieing to
me now or were you lieing to me last week?
.
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| User: "JTEM" |
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| Title: Re: The man who should be president. |
11 Nov 2003 11:12:44 AM |
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"David Moffitt" <moffitcl@ prodigy.net> wrote
%%%% Albert Gore Junior. I remember him well!
It's hard to forget the man who was elected President of the United
States in 2000.
.
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| User: "David Moffitt moffitcl@ prodigy.net" |
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| Title: Re: The man who should be president. |
11 Nov 2003 11:22:33 AM |
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"JTEM" <jaytem@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:c9Kdna_378RKiiyiRVn-uA@comcast.com...
"David Moffitt" <moffitcl@ prodigy.net> wrote
%%%% Albert Gore Junior. I remember him well!
It's hard to forget the man who was elected President of the United
States in 2000.
%%%% Not according to the Constitution he wasn't. A fact the sociofascist
left has been in deep depressive denial about for 3 years. ROTFLMAO!! :o)
"I feel your pain"
.
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| User: "JTEM" |
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| Title: Re: The man who should be president. |
11 Nov 2003 11:49:03 AM |
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"David Moffitt" <moffitcl@ prodigy.net> wrote
It's hard to forget the man who was elected President
of the United States in 2000.
%%%% Not according to the Constitution he wasn't.
According to that constitution, Lieberman is our Vice President.
Read the 12th amendment.
You can't claim it was about votes because Al Gore won the
most votes, and you can't claim it was about the Electoral
College because Lieberman won the Electoral vote in the
Vice Presidential race.
That leaves us with an unelected, unconstitutional "government."
.
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| User: "Horatio Fudruckerton" |
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| Title: Re: The man who should be president. |
11 Nov 2003 02:16:24 PM |
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On Tue, 11 Nov 2003 12:49:03 -0500, "JTEM" <jaytem@yahoo.com> wrote:
"David Moffitt" <moffitcl@ prodigy.net> wrote
It's hard to forget the man who was elected President
of the United States in 2000.
%%%% Not according to the Constitution he wasn't.
According to that constitution, Lieberman is our Vice President.
Read the 12th amendment.
You can't claim it was about votes because Al Gore won the
most votes, and you can't claim it was about the Electoral
College because Lieberman won the Electoral vote in the
Vice Presidential race.
That leaves us with an unelected, unconstitutional "government."
If you are so sure of this fact then why don't you file a lawsuit or
go to Washington and try to drag the duly elected President and
VP out of the White House ? Please try the later and let me
know when this is going to take place. I want to have my
recliner moved to the White House steps so I will have a
front row seat for this spectacle.
Do you have the balls to back up your mouth ?
_______________________________________________________________________________
Posted Via Uncensored-News.Com - Accounts Starting At $6.95 - http://www.uncensored-news.com
<><><><><><><> The Worlds Uncensored News Source <><><><><><><><>
.
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| User: "JTEM" |
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| Title: Re: The man who should be president. |
12 Nov 2003 07:10:09 AM |
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"Horatio Fudruckerton" <NoSpam@Hotmail.com> wrote
If you are so sure of this fact then why don't you file a lawsuit or
go to Washington and try to drag the duly elected President and
VP out of the White House ?
You mean argue a case in front of the exact same partisan Supreme
Court that over turned every court precendent on disputed elections
in order to install Bush, then immediately turned around and restored
them?
Texas will start convicting white millionaires for their crimes before
anything like that could happen....
.
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| User: "Bob White" |
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| Title: Re: The man who should be president. |
11 Nov 2003 02:25:09 PM |
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"Horatio Fudruckerton" <NoSpam@Hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:tng2rv0l4hvc0il41o7q3hpo0crip2kl43@4ax.com...
On Tue, 11 Nov 2003 12:49:03 -0500, "JTEM" <jaytem@yahoo.com> wrote:
"David Moffitt" <moffitcl@ prodigy.net> wrote
It's hard to forget the man who was elected President
of the United States in 2000.
%%%% Not according to the Constitution he wasn't.
According to that constitution, Lieberman is our Vice President.
Read the 12th amendment.
You can't claim it was about votes because Al Gore won the
most votes, and you can't claim it was about the Electoral
College because Lieberman won the Electoral vote in the
Vice Presidential race.
That leaves us with an unelected, unconstitutional "government."
If you are so sure of this fact then why don't you file a lawsuit or
go to Washington and try to drag the duly elected President and
VP out of the White House ? Please try the later and let me
know when this is going to take place. I want to have my
recliner moved to the White House steps so I will have a
front row seat for this spectacle.
Do you have the balls to back up your mouth ?
If democrats are not willing to stage a shooting revolution, then Dubya is
legitimately elected? What kind of nonsense is that?
Aren't you capable of following a logical argument, Mr. Fuckeduperton?
.
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| User: "JTEM" |
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| Title: Re: The man who should be president. |
12 Nov 2003 07:10:53 AM |
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"Bob White" <threeball@hotmail.com> wrote
If democrats are not willing to stage a shooting revolution, then
Dubya is legitimately elected? What kind of nonsense is that?
It makes sense to everybody at his trailer park...
.
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: The man who should be president. |
12 Nov 2003 06:14:55 PM |
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On Tue, 11 Nov 2003 12:12:44 -0500, "JTEM" <jaytem@yahoo.com> wrote:
"David Moffitt" <moffitcl@ prodigy.net> wrote
%%%% Albert Gore Junior. I remember him well!
It's hard to forget the man who was elected President of the United
States in 2000.
That's true and he's doing a pretty good job *as* president imo.
atheist@home#1554
.
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| User: "eyelessgame" |
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| Title: Re: The man who should be president. |
11 Nov 2003 12:10:22 PM |
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"David Moffitt" <moffitcl@ prodigy.net> wrote in message news:<UT6sb.28267$ki3.23731@newssvr31.news.prodigy.com>...
"Patriotboy is Fair and Balanced" <tim@somecallme.net> wrote in message
news:Xns942FEFC3F1757timsomecallme@216.168.3.44...
Excerpts from Gore's speech on Sunday. Read or view it in its
entirety at http://www.moveon.org/gore/speech2.html
%%%% Albert Gore Junior. I remember him well! The man who not only his home
town rejected for President but the whole state of Tennessee. You have to be
real sleeze bag for your own neighbors to reject you.
Matthew 13:57
.
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| User: "James Monroe" |
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| Title: Re: The man who should be president. |
11 Nov 2003 02:17:40 AM |
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On Tue, 11 Nov 2003 07:33:00 -0000, Patriotboy is Fair and Balanced
<tim@somecallme.net> wrote:
Excerpts from Gore's speech on Sunday. Read or view it in its
entirety at http://www.moveon.org/gore/speech2.html
Ah, yes. I remember Al Gore. The man the American people elected
President.
"President Bush is claiming the unilateral right to do that to any
American citizen he believes is an 'enemy combatant.' Those are the
magic words. If the President alone decides that those two words
accurately describe someone, then that person can be immediately
locked up and held incommunicado for as long as the President wants,
with no court having the right to determine whether the facts
actually justify his imprisonment.
Now if the President makes a mistake, or is given faulty information
by somebody working for him, and locks up the wrong person, then it's
almost impossible for that person to prove his innocence – because he
can’t talk to a lawyer or his family or anyone else and he doesn’t
even have the right to know what specific crime he is accused of
committing. So a constitutional right to liberty and the pursuit of
happiness that we used to think of in an old-fashioned way as
'inalienable' can now be instantly stripped from any American by the
President with no meaningful review by any other branch of
government.
How do we feel about that? Is that OK?
Here's another recent change in our civil liberties: Now, if it wants
to, the federal government has the right to monitor every website you
go to on the internet, keep a list of everyone you send email to or
receive email from and everyone who you call on the telephone or who
calls you – and they don't even have to show probable cause that
you've done anything wrong. Nor do they ever have to report to any
court on what they're doing with the information. Moreover, there are
precious few safeguards to keep them from reading the content of all
your email.
Everybody fine with that?
If so, what about this next change?
For America's first 212 years, it used to be that if the police
wanted to search your house, they had to be able to convince an
independent judge to give them a search warrant and then (with rare
exceptions) they had to go bang on your door and yell, 'Open up!'
Then, if you didn't quickly open up, they could knock the door down.
Also, if they seized anything, they had to leave a list explaining
what they had taken. That way, if it was all a terrible mistake (as
it sometimes is) you could go and get your stuff back.
But that's all changed now. Starting two years ago, federal agents
were given broad new statutory authority by the Patriot Act to 'sneak
and peak' in non-terrorism cases. They can secretly enter your home
with no warning -- whether you are there or not -- and they can wait
for months before telling you they were there. And it doesn't have to
have any relationship to terrorism whatsoever. It applies to any
garden-variety crime. And the new law makes it very easy to get
around the need for a traditional warrant -- simply by saying that
searching your house might have some connection (even a remote one)
to the investigation of some agent of a foreign power. Then they can
go to another court, a secret court, that more or less has to give
them a warrant whenever they ask.
Three weeks ago, in a speech at FBI Headquarters, President Bush went
even further and formally proposed that the Attorney General be
allowed to authorize subpoenas by administrative order, without the
need for a warrant from any court.
What about the right to consult a lawyer if you're arrested? Is that
important?
Attorney General Ashcroft has issued regulations authorizing the
secret monitoring of attorney-client conversations on his say-so
alone; bypassing procedures for obtaining prior judicial review for
such monitoring in the rare instances when it was permitted in the
past. Now, whoever is in custody has to assume that the government is
always listening to consultations between them and their lawyers.
Does it matter if the government listens in on everything you say to
your lawyer? Is that Ok?
Or, to take another change -- and thanks to the librarians, more
people know about this one -- the FBI now has the right to go into
any library and ask for the records of everybody who has used the
library and get a list of who is reading what. Similarly, the FBI can
demand all the records of banks, colleges, hotels, hospitals, credit-
card companies, and many more kinds of companies. And these changes
are only the beginning. Just last week, Attorney General Ashcroft
issued brand new guidelines permitting FBI agents to run credit
checks and background checks and gather other information about
anyone who is 'of investigatory interest,' - meaning anyone the agent
thinks is suspicious - without any evidence of criminal behavior.
So, is that fine with everyone?"
"I want to challenge the Bush Administration's implicit assumption
that we have to give up many of our traditional freedoms in order to
be safe from terrorists.
Because it is simply not true.
In fact, in my opinion, it makes no more sense to launch an assault
on our civil liberties as the best way to get at terrorists than it
did to launch an invasion of Iraq as the best way to get at Osama Bin
Laden.
In both cases, the Administration has attacked the wrong target.
In both cases they have recklessly put our country in grave and
unnecessary danger, while avoiding and neglecting obvious and much
more important challenges that would actually help to protect the
country.
In both cases, the administration has fostered false impressions and
misled the nation with superficial, emotional and manipulative
presentations that are not worthy of American Democracy.
In both cases they have exploited public fears for partisan political
gain and postured themselves as bold defenders of our country while
actually weakening not strengthening America.
In both cases, they have used unprecedented secrecy and deception in
order to avoid accountability to the Congress, the Courts, the press
and the people."
"But instead, this Administration is seeking to conduct its work in
secret even as it demands broad unfettered access to personal
information about American citizens. Under the rubric of protecting
national security, they have obtained new powers to gather
information from citizens and to keep it secret. Yet at the same time
they themselves refuse to disclose information that is highly
relevant to the war against terrorism.
They are even arrogantly refusing to provide information about 9/11
that is in their possession to the 9/11 Commission -- the lawful
investigative body charged with examining not only the performance of
the Bush Administration, but also the actions of the prior
Administration in which I served. The whole point is to learn all we
can about preventing future terrorist attacks"
"In an even more brazen move, more than two years after they rounded
up over 1,200 individuals of Arab descent, they still refuse to
release the names of the individuals they detained, even though
virtually every one of those arrested has been "cleared" by the FBI
of any connection to terrorism and there is absolutely no national
security justification for keeping the names secret. Yet at the same
time, White House officials themselves leaked the name of a CIA
operative serving the country, in clear violation of the law, in an
effort to get at her husband, who had angered them by disclosing that
the President had relied on forged evidence in his state of the union
address as part of his effort to convince the country that Saddam
Hussein was on the verge of building nuclear weapons.
And even as they claim the right to see the private bank records of
every American, they are adopting a new policy on the Freedom of
Information Act that actively encourages federal agencies to fully
consider all potential reasons for non-disclosure regardless of
whether the disclosure would be harmful. In other words, the federal
government will now actively resist complying with ANY request for
information.
Moreover, they have established a new exemption that enables them to
refuse the release to the press and the public of important health,
safety and environmental information submitted to the government by
businesses -- merely by calling it 'critical infrastructure.'
By closely guarding information about their own behavior, they are
dismantling a fundamental element of our system of checks and
balances. Because so long as the government's actions are secret,
they cannot be held accountable. A government for the people and by
the people must be transparent to the people."
"The constant violations of civil liberties promote the false
impression that these violations are necessary in order to take every
precaution against another terrorist attack. But the simple truth is
that the vast majority of the violations have not benefited our
security at all; to the contrary, they hurt our security."
"Rather than leading with a call to courage, this Administration has
chosen to lead us by inciting fear."
"But President Bush has stretched this new practical imperative
beyond what is healthy for our democracy. Indeed, one of the ways he
has tried to maximize his power within the American system has been
by constantly emphasizing his role as Commander-in-Chief, far more
than any previous President -- assuming it as often and as visibly as
he can, and bringing it into the domestic arena and conflating it
with his other roles: as head of government and head of state -- and
especially with his political role as head of the Republican Party.
Indeed, the most worrisome new factor, in my view, is the aggressive
ideological approach of the current administration, which seems
determined to use fear as a political tool to consolidate its power
and to escape any accountability for its use. Just as unilateralism
and dominance are the guiding principles of their disastrous approach
to international relations, they are also the guiding impulses of the
administration's approach to domestic politics. They are impatient
with any constraints on the exercise of power overseas -- whether
from our allies, the UN, or international law. And in the same way,
they are impatient with any obstacles to their use of power at home -
- whether from Congress, the Courts, the press, or the rule of law."
"Incredibly, this Administration has attempted to compromise the most
precious rights that Americahas stood for all over the world for more
than 200 years: due process, equal treatment under the law, the
dignity of the individual, freedom from unreasonable search and
seizure, freedom from promiscuous government surveillance. And in the
name of security, this Administration has attempted to relegate the
Congress and the Courts to the sidelines and replace our democratic
system of checks and balances with an unaccountable Executive. And
all the while, it has constantly angled for new ways to exploit the
sense of crisis for partisan gain and political dominance. How dare
they!"
"The question before us could be of no greater moment: will we
continue to live as a people under the rule of law as embodied in our
Constitution? Or will we fail future generations, by leaving them a
Constitution far diminished from the charter of liberty we have
inherited from our forebears? Our choice is clear."
.
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| User: "Eric da Red" |
|
| Title: Re: The man who should be president. |
11 Nov 2003 12:52:55 PM |
|
|
In article <gn61rv0b8mkse85hs3ra5v9cibnp51pglt@4ax.com>,
James Monroe <nospam@lessspam.net> wrote:
On Tue, 11 Nov 2003 07:33:00 -0000, Patriotboy is Fair and Balanced
<tim@somecallme.net> wrote:
Excerpts from Gore's speech on Sunday. Read or view it in its
entirety at http://www.moveon.org/gore/speech2.html
Ah, yes. I remember Al Gore. The man the American people elected
President.
Too bad he didn't talk like this during Campaign 2000.
--
Quote Of The Week:
"It's going to be another one of those days." -- President David Palmer
.
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| User: "Lord Calvert" |
|
| Title: Re: The man who should be president. |
11 Nov 2003 02:46:22 PM |
|
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Excerpts from Gore's speech on Sunday. Read or view it in its
entirety at http://www.moveon.org/gore/speech2.html
Ah, yes. I remember Al Gore. The man the American people elected
President.
Too bad he didn't talk like this during Campaign 2000.
In 2000 the country was not run by a anti-American theocratic dictator using
the US treasury as his personal disbursement fund to give handouts to all his
friends. There was no need to make speeches like this in 2000.
Now there is.
Rich Goranson, Amherst, NY, USA (aa#MCMXCIX, a-vet#1)
EAC Department of Applied Rattan Use
"Without faith we might relapse into scientific or rational thinking, which
leads by a slippery slope toward constitutional democracy." - Robert Anton
Wilson
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| User: "Daniel Kolle" |
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| Title: Re: The man who should be president. |
11 Nov 2003 04:10:26 PM |
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James Monroe <nospam@lessspam.net> thought hard and said:
On Tue, 11 Nov 2003 07:33:00 -0000, Patriotboy is Fair and Balanced
<tim@somecallme.net> wrote:
Excerpts from Gore's speech on Sunday. Read or view it in its
entirety at http://www.moveon.org/gore/speech2.html
Ah, yes. I remember Al Gore. The man the American people elected
President.
You misspelled George W. Bush.
--
-Daniel "Mr. Brevity" Kolle; 15 A.A. #2035
Koji Kondo, Yo-Yo Ma, Gustav Mahler, and Krzysztof Penderecki are my Gods.
Madly Insane EAC Scientist.
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| User: "MF Ogilvie" |
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| Title: Re: The man who should be president. |
11 Nov 2003 11:10:08 AM |
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James Monroe <nospam@lessspam.net> wrote in message news:<gn61rv0b8mkse85hs3ra5v9cibnp51pglt@4ax.com>...
On Tue, 11 Nov 2003 07:33:00 -0000, Patriotboy is Fair and Balanced
<tim@somecallme.net> wrote:
Excerpts from Gore's speech on Sunday. Read or view it in its
entirety at http://www.moveon.org/gore/speech2.html
Ah, yes. I remember Al Gore. The man the American people elected
President.
No we didn't.
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| User: "JTEM" |
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| Title: Re: The man who should be president. |
11 Nov 2003 11:18:48 AM |
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"MF Ogilvie" <matthew.f.ogilvie@lmco.com> wrote
Ah, yes. I remember Al Gore. The man the American
people elected President.
No we didn't.
"The man the people of the United States elected President."
Of course the people of Mexico & Canada (and other American
states) didn't vote in our election.... a lot like black people in
Florida.
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| User: "Jim07D3" |
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| Title: Re: The man who should be president. |
11 Nov 2003 11:15:35 AM |
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(MF Ogilvie) said:
James Monroe <nospam@lessspam.net> wrote in message news:<gn61rv0b8mkse85hs3ra5v9cibnp51pglt@4ax.com>...
On Tue, 11 Nov 2003 07:33:00 -0000, Patriotboy is Fair and Balanced
<tim@somecallme.net> wrote:
Excerpts from Gore's speech on Sunday. Read or view it in its
entirety at http://www.moveon.org/gore/speech2.html
Ah, yes. I remember Al Gore. The man the American people elected
President.
No we didn't.
Fact is, we don't know who was elected by our absurd winner take all
(by state) electoral college system. We do know who the Supreme Court
selected. And this is the system we want to export to the world?
Jim07D3
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| User: "JTEM" |
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| Title: Re: The man who should be president. |
11 Nov 2003 11:46:22 AM |
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"Jim07D3" <Jim07D3@nospam.net> wrote
Fact is, we don't know who was elected by our absurd
winner take all (by state) electoral college system.
Yes we do, because if it was really about the Electoral
College than Lieberman would be the Vice President
right now.
Don't believe me? Read the 12th amendment to the U.S.
constitution dealing with the Electoral College, and
take note of the fact that Cheney was a citizen of Texas
for the 8 years leading up to the election.
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| User: "Bill Bonde the oblique allusion in lieu of the frontal attack" |
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| Title: Re: The man who should be president. |
11 Nov 2003 12:07:32 PM |
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JTEM wrote:
"Jim07D3" <Jim07D3@nospam.net> wrote
Fact is, we don't know who was elected by our absurd
winner take all (by state) electoral college system.
Yes we do, because if it was really about the Electoral
College than Lieberman would be the Vice President
right now.
Don't believe me? Read the 12th amendment to the U.S.
constitution dealing with the Electoral College, and
take note of the fact that Cheney was a citizen of Texas
for the 8 years leading up to the election.
"shall not be an inhabitant of the same state with themselves" means
what? Can't you just move your legal residence anywhere you want?
--
"The terrorists who attacked us were not Afghanis. In fact, Afghanis
have pretty much stayed in Afghanistan. The terrorists who attacked us
were ARABS. Where are the Arabs? The Middle East. Where is Iraq? Right
in the middle of the Middle East!"
+-Bill Bonde explains the war on terrorism to stupid Liberals
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| User: "Suomy Nona" |
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| Title: Re: The man who should be president. |
15 Nov 2003 02:08:45 PM |
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MF Ogilvie wrote:
James Monroe <nospam@lessspam.net> wrote in message news:<gn61rv0b8mkse85hs3ra5v9cibnp51pglt@4ax.com>...
On Tue, 11 Nov 2003 07:33:00 -0000, Patriotboy is Fair and Balanced
<tim@somecallme.net> wrote:
Excerpts from Gore's speech on Sunday. Read or view it in its
entirety at http://www.moveon.org/gore/speech2.html
Ah, yes. I remember Al Gore. The man the American people elected
President.
No we didn't.
You Republicans may not qualify as "people"..
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| User: "Al Klein" |
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| Title: Re: The man who should be president. |
16 Nov 2003 11:28:30 PM |
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On Sat, 15 Nov 2003 13:08:45 -0700, Suomy Nona <.@.> posted in
alt.atheism:
MF Ogilvie wrote:
James Monroe <nospam@lessspam.net> wrote in message news:<gn61rv0b8mkse85hs3ra5v9cibnp51pglt@4ax.com>...
On Tue, 11 Nov 2003 07:33:00 -0000, Patriotboy is Fair and Balanced
<tim@somecallme.net> wrote:
Excerpts from Gore's speech on Sunday. Read or view it in its
entirety at http://www.moveon.org/gore/speech2.html
Ah, yes. I remember Al Gore. The man the American people elected
President.
No we didn't.
You Republicans may not qualify as "people"..
I think he means that the Democrats elected Gore, the Repugs didn't.
--
"We should do unto others as we would want them to do unto us. If I were an unborn
fetus I would want others to use force to protect me, therefore using force against
abortionists is *justifiable homocide*."
- "Pro-Life" doctor killer and corpse Paul Hill
(random sig, produced by SigChanger)
rukbat at optonline dot net
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| User: "Bill Bonde the oblique allusion in lieu of the frontal attack" |
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| Title: Re: The man who should be president. |
11 Nov 2003 10:46:37 AM |
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James Monroe wrote:
On Tue, 11 Nov 2003 07:33:00 -0000, Patriotboy is Fair and Balanced
<tim@somecallme.net> wrote:
Excerpts from Gore's speech on Sunday. Read or view it in its
entirety at http://www.moveon.org/gore/speech2.html
Ah, yes. I remember Al Gore. The man the American people elected
President.
The process of electing a US president is based on the number of
electoral votes someone gets and not on the non-existent national
popular vote.
--
"Throw me that lipstick, darling, I wanna redo my stigmata."
+-Jennifer Saunders, "Absolutely Fabulous"
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| User: "Suomy Nona" |
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| Title: Re: The man who should be president. |
15 Nov 2003 02:07:53 PM |
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Bill Bonde ( the oblique allusion in lieu of the frontal attack ) wrote:
James Monroe wrote:
On Tue, 11 Nov 2003 07:33:00 -0000, Patriotboy is Fair and Balanced
<tim@somecallme.net> wrote:
Excerpts from Gore's speech on Sunday. Read or view it in its
entirety at http://www.moveon.org/gore/speech2.html
Ah, yes. I remember Al Gore. The man the American people elected
President.
The process of electing a US president is based on the number of
electoral votes someone gets and not on the non-existent national
popular vote.
And yet Limbaugh and the Republican slime are constantly
telling us how the evil Bill Clinton, who only got 42% of the
popular vote (GHWB got 37%) didn't have a majority (versus
a plurality) and therefore was somehow not legitimately elected.
Another example of Republican hypocrisy..
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| User: "SemiScholar" |
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| Title: Re: The man who should be president. |
15 Nov 2003 03:51:20 PM |
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On Sat, 15 Nov 2003 13:07:53 -0700, Suomy Nona <.@.> wrote:
Bill Bonde ( the oblique allusion in lieu of the frontal attack ) wrote:
James Monroe wrote:
On Tue, 11 Nov 2003 07:33:00 -0000, Patriotboy is Fair and Balanced
<tim@somecallme.net> wrote:
Excerpts from Gore's speech on Sunday. Read or view it in its
entirety at http://www.moveon.org/gore/speech2.html
Ah, yes. I remember Al Gore. The man the American people elected
President.
The process of electing a US president is based on the number of
electoral votes someone gets and not on the non-existent national
popular vote.
And yet Limbaugh and the Republican slime are constantly
telling us how the evil Bill Clinton, who only got 42% of the
popular vote (GHWB got 37%) didn't have a majority (versus
a plurality) and therefore was somehow not legitimately elected.
Another example of Republican hypocrisy..
And another one is this current whining about the Democrats using the
filibuster to protect the country from right-wing extremist judges
being appointed by Bush. It's really funny - they dismiss any notion
that Gore actually got more than half a million MORE votes than George
WMD Bush did by pointing to the arcane and weird "rules of the game"
(e.g. the Electoral College). And yet they don't seem to recognize
that the filibuster is also playing by the technical "rules of the
game."
And another - some repubs were whining in the news media yesterday
that the Democrats would soon be sorry they were using the tactics of
the filibuster to protect the nation from extreme right-wing judges
because when there was a democrat president, the repubs would do the
same. ROTFL!! After the way the repubs treated Clinton - including
the bogus impeachment and all that, but more specifically the horrible
record they had of keeping Clinton's judicial nominees boxed up in
committee (no filibuster even necessary - they bollixed up the system
earlier in the process)... Jeeze... the dems prevent a mere 2 (now
4) nominees - people they find strongly offensive - out all Bush's
judicial nominees, and they whine like stuck picks. And they have the
gall to claim that THEY will retaliate for the DEM's "bad behavior"...
LOL!!
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| User: "Bill Bonde the oblique allusion in lieu of the frontal attack" |
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| Title: Re: The man who should be president. |
15 Nov 2003 04:23:00 PM |
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Suomy Nona wrote:
Bill Bonde ( the oblique allusion in lieu of the frontal attack ) wrote:
James Monroe wrote:
On Tue, 11 Nov 2003 07:33:00 -0000, Patriotboy is Fair and Balanced
<tim@somecallme.net> wrote:
Excerpts from Gore's speech on Sunday. Read or view it in its
entirety at http://www.moveon.org/gore/speech2.html
Ah, yes. I remember Al Gore. The man the American people elected
President.
The process of electing a US president is based on the number of
electoral votes someone gets and not on the non-existent national
popular vote.
And yet Limbaugh and the Republican slime are constantly
telling us how the evil Bill Clinton, who only got 42% of the
popular vote (GHWB got 37%) didn't have a majority (versus
a plurality) and therefore was somehow not legitimately elected.
Bush and Gore got almost the same number of votes. It was about a half
point different so if Gore had gotten the call from the electoral
college, the same arguments you use against Bush would've applied.
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| User: "Al Klein" |
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| Title: Re: The man who should be president. |
16 Nov 2003 11:27:51 PM |
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On Sat, 15 Nov 2003 14:23:00 -0800, "Bill Bonde ( the oblique allusion
in lieu of the frontal attack )" <stderr2@backpacker.com> posted in
alt.atheism:
Suomy Nona wrote:
And yet Limbaugh and the Republican slime are constantly
telling us how the evil Bill Clinton, who only got 42% of the
popular vote (GHWB got 37%) didn't have a majority (versus
a plurality) and therefore was somehow not legitimately elected.
Bush and Gore got almost the same number of votes. It was about a half
point different so if Gore had gotten the call from the electoral
college, the same arguments you use against Bush would've applied.
Totally non sequitur, but what can we expect from someone whose IQ has
a dash in front of it?
--
Zymurgist # 2
(random sig, produced by SigChanger)
rukbat at optonline dot net
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| User: "Bill Bonde the oblique allusion in lieu of the frontal attack" |
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| Title: Re: The man who should be president. |
16 Nov 2003 11:43:07 PM |
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Al Klein wrote:
On Sat, 15 Nov 2003 14:23:00 -0800, "Bill Bonde ( the oblique allusion
in lieu of the frontal attack )" <stderr2@backpacker.com> posted in
alt.atheism:
Suomy Nona wrote:
And yet Limbaugh and the Republican slime are constantly
telling us how the evil Bill Clinton, who only got 42% of the
popular vote (GHWB got 37%) didn't have a majority (versus
a plurality) and therefore was somehow not legitimately elected.
Bush and Gore got almost the same number of votes. It was about a half
point different so if Gore had gotten the call from the electoral
college, the same arguments you use against Bush would've applied.
Totally non sequitur, but what can we expect from someone whose IQ has
a dash in front of it?
What I've stated is exactly correct, as usual. You are just too stupid
to understand it.
--
"Throw me that lipstick, darling, I wanna redo my stigmata."
+-Jennifer Saunders, "Absolutely Fabulous"
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| User: "Al Klein" |
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| Title: Re: The man who should be president. |
17 Nov 2003 10:15:07 PM |
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On Sun, 16 Nov 2003 21:43:07 -0800, "Bill Bonde ( the oblique allusion
in lieu of the frontal attack )" <stderr2@backpacker.com> posted in
alt.atheism:
Al Klein wrote:
Totally non sequitur, but what can we expect from someone whose IQ has
a dash in front of it?
What I've stated is exactly correct
Yes, Bill, we all know that you think that every word you post is
Gospel.
--
"Christianity has already had the chance to govern
the world according to its own ethical standards.
It was called the "Dark Ages".
- Bill, The Avend
(random sig, produced by SigChanger)
rukbat at optonline dot net
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| User: "The Frog" |
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| Title: Re: The man who should be president. |
11 Nov 2003 08:22:34 AM |
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On Tue, 11 Nov 2003 08:17:40 GMT, James Monroe <nospam@lessspam.net>
wrote:
On Tue, 11 Nov 2003 07:33:00 -0000, Patriotboy is Fair and Balanced
<tim@somecallme.net> wrote:
Excerpts from Gore's speech on Sunday. Read or view it in its
entirety at http://www.moveon.org/gore/speech2.html
Ah, yes. I remember Al Gore. The man the American people elected
President.
Please take a civics course.
"President Bush is claiming the unilateral right to do that to any
American citizen he believes is an 'enemy combatant.' Those are the
magic words. If the President alone decides that those two words
accurately describe someone, then that person can be immediately
locked up and held incommunicado for as long as the President wants,
with no court having the right to determine whether the facts
actually justify his imprisonment.
Now if the President makes a mistake, or is given faulty information
by somebody working for him, and locks up the wrong person, then it's
almost impossible for that person to prove his innocence – because he
can’t talk to a lawyer or his family or anyone else and he doesn’t
even have the right to know what specific crime he is accused of
committing. So a constitutional right to liberty and the pursuit of
happiness that we used to think of in an old-fashioned way as
'inalienable' can now be instantly stripped from any American by the
President with no meaningful review by any other branch of
government.
How do we feel about that? Is that OK?
Here's another recent change in our civil liberties: Now, if it wants
to, the federal government has the right to monitor every website you
go to on the internet, keep a list of everyone you send email to or
receive email from and everyone who you call on the telephone or who
calls you – and they don't even have to show probable cause that
you've done anything wrong. Nor do they ever have to report to any
court on what they're doing with the information. Moreover, there are
precious few safeguards to keep them from reading the content of all
your email.
Everybody fine with that?
If so, what about this next change?
For America's first 212 years, it used to be that if the police
wanted to search your house, they had to be able to convince an
independent judge to give them a search warrant and then (with rare
exceptions) they had to go bang on your door and yell, 'Open up!'
Then, if you didn't quickly open up, they could knock the door down.
Also, if they seized anything, they had to leave a list explaining
what they had taken. That way, if it was all a terrible mistake (as
it sometimes is) you could go and get your stuff back.
But that's all changed now. Starting two years ago, federal agents
were given broad new statutory authority by the Patriot Act to 'sneak
and peak' in non-terrorism cases. They can secretly enter your home
with no warning -- whether you are there or not -- and they can wait
for months before telling you they were there. And it doesn't have to
have any relationship to terrorism whatsoever. It applies to any
garden-variety crime. And the new law makes it very easy to get
around the need for a traditional warrant -- simply by saying that
searching your house might have some connection (even a remote one)
to the investigation of some agent of a foreign power. Then they can
go to another court, a secret court, that more or less has to give
them a warrant whenever they ask.
Three weeks ago, in a speech at FBI Headquarters, President Bush went
even further and formally proposed that the Attorney General be
allowed to authorize subpoenas by administrative order, without the
need for a warrant from any court.
What about the right to consult a lawyer if you're arrested? Is that
important?
Attorney General Ashcroft has issued regulations authorizing the
secret monitoring of attorney-client conversations on his say-so
alone; bypassing procedures for obtaining prior judicial review for
such monitoring in the rare instances when it was permitted in the
past. Now, whoever is in custody has to assume that the government is
always listening to consultations between them and their lawyers.
Does it matter if the government listens in on everything you say to
your lawyer? Is that Ok?
Or, to take another change -- and thanks to the librarians, more
people know about this one -- the FBI now has the right to go into
any library and ask for the records of everybody who has used the
library and get a list of who is reading what. Similarly, the FBI can
demand all the records of banks, colleges, hotels, hospitals, credit-
card companies, and many more kinds of companies. And these changes
are only the beginning. Just last week, Attorney General Ashcroft
issued brand new guidelines permitting FBI agents to run credit
checks and background checks and gather other information about
anyone who is 'of investigatory interest,' - meaning anyone the agent
thinks is suspicious - without any evidence of criminal behavior.
So, is that fine with everyone?"
"I want to challenge the Bush Administration's implicit assumption
that we have to give up many of our traditional freedoms in order to
be safe from terrorists.
Because it is simply not true.
In fact, in my opinion, it makes no more sense to launch an assault
on our civil liberties as the best way to get at terrorists than it
did to launch an invasion of Iraq as the best way to get at Osama Bin
Laden.
In both cases, the Administration has attacked the wrong target.
In both cases they have recklessly put our country in grave and
unnecessary danger, while avoiding and neglecting obvious and much
more important challenges that would actually help to protect the
country.
In both cases, the administration has fostered false impressions and
misled the nation with superficial, emotional and manipulative
presentations that are not worthy of American Democracy.
In both cases they have exploited public fears for partisan political
gain and postured themselves as bold defenders of our country while
actually weakening not strengthening America.
In both cases, they have used unprecedented secrecy and deception in
order to avoid accountability to the Congress, the Courts, the press
and the people."
"But instead, this Administration is seeking to conduct its work in
secret even as it demands broad unfettered access to personal
information about American citizens. Under the rubric of protecting
national security, they have obtained new powers to gather
information from citizens and to keep it secret. Yet at the same time
they themselves refuse to disclose information that is highly
relevant to the war against terrorism.
They are even arrogantly refusing to provide information about 9/11
that is in their possession to the 9/11 Commission -- the lawful
investigative body charged with examining not only the performance of
the Bush Administration, but also the actions of the prior
Administration in which I served. The whole point is to learn all we
can about preventing future terrorist attacks"
"In an even more brazen move, more than two years after they rounded
up over 1,200 individuals of Arab descent, they still refuse to
release the names of the individuals they detained, even though
virtually every one of those arrested has been "cleared" by the FBI
of any connection to terrorism and there is absolutely no national
security justification for keeping the names secret. Yet at the same
time, White House officials themselves leaked the name of a CIA
operative serving the country, in clear violation of the law, in an
effort to get at her husband, who had angered them by disclosing that
the President had relied on forged evidence in his state of the union
address as part of his effort to convince the country that Saddam
Hussein was on the verge of building nuclear weapons.
And even as they claim the right to see the private bank records of
every American, they are adopting a new policy on the Freedom of
Information Act that actively encourages federal agencies to fully
consider all potential reasons for non-disclosure regardless of
whether the disclosure would be harmful. In other words, the federal
government will now actively resist complying with ANY request for
information.
Moreover, they have established a new exemption that enables them to
refuse the release to the press and the public of important health,
safety and environmental information submitted to the government by
businesses -- merely by calling it 'critical infrastructure.'
By closely guarding information about their own behavior, they are
dismantling a fundamental element of our system of checks and
balances. Because so long as the government's actions are secret,
they cannot be held accountable. A government for the people and by
the people must be transparent to the people."
"The constant violations of civil liberties promote the false
impression that these violations are necessary in order to take every
precaution against another terrorist attack. But the simple truth is
that the vast majority of the violations have not benefited our
security at all; to the contrary, they hurt our security."
"Rather than leading with a call to courage, this Administration has
chosen to lead us by inciting fear."
"But President Bush has stretched this new practical imperative
beyond what is healthy for our democracy. Indeed, one of the ways he
has tried to maximize his power within the American system has been
by constantly emphasizing his role as Commander-in-Chief, far more
than any previous President -- assuming it as often and as visibly as
he can, and bringing it into the domestic arena and conflating it
with his other roles: as head of government and head of state -- and
especially with his political role as head of the Republican Party.
Indeed, the most worrisome new factor, in my view, is the aggressive
ideological approach of the current administration, which seems
determined to use fear as a political tool to consolidate its power
and to escape any accountability for its use. Just as unilateralism
and dominance are the guiding principles of their disastrous approach
to international relations, they are also the guiding impulses of the
administration's approach to domestic politics. They are impatient
with any constraints on the exercise of power overseas -- whether
from our allies, the UN, or international law. And in the same way,
they are impatient with any obstacles to their use of power at home -
- whether from Congress, the Courts, the press, or the rule of law."
"Incredibly, this Administration has attempted to compromise the most
precious rights that Americahas stood for all over the world for more
than 200 years: due process, equal treatment under the law, the
dignity of the individual, freedom from unreasonable search and
seizure, freedom from promiscuous government surveillance. And in the
name of security, this Administration has attempted to relegate the
Congress and the Courts to the sidelines and replace our democratic
system of checks and balances with an unaccountable Executive. And
all the while, it has constantly angled for new ways to exploit the
sense of crisis for partisan gain and political dominance. How dare
they!"
"The question before us could be of no greater moment: will we
continue to live as a people under the rule of law as embodied in our
Constitution? Or will we fail future generations, by leaving them a
Constitution far diminished from the charter of liberty we have
inherited from our forebears? Our choice is clear."
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
"The multicultural project will never fully succeed if 'diversity'
is defined as one's own preferred ideologies and political groups."
--Richard E. Redding, "Grappling With Diverse Conceptions of Diversity,"
American Psychologist, April 2002, p. 301.
.
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| User: "JTEM" |
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| Title: Re: The man who should be president. |
11 Nov 2003 10:57:24 AM |
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"The Frog" <jmattNOSPAM@ticnet.com> wrote
James Monroe <nospam@lessspam.net> wrote:
Ah, yes. I remember Al Gore. The man the American people
elected President.
Please take a civics course.
Okay, I did and he's right. Al Gore won the 2000 Presidential
election by more than half a million votes.
If you want to pretend that it's all about the Electoral College
then how do you explain ***** Cheney? According to the 12th
amendment to the U.S. consitution, ***** Cheney lost the
Electoral votes from Texas, making Lieberman our Vice President.
But it's not about our quarky "Electoral College," no more so than
it's about votes.
It was a coup. The neo-cons pulled a coup.
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