Religions > Atheism > The Myth of Hitler's Pope: How Pope Pius XII Rescued 700,000 Jews from the Nazis
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| Date: |
01 Aug 2005 07:38:00 AM |
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The Myth of Hitler's Pope: How Pope Pius XII Rescued 700,000 Jews from the Nazis |
The Myth of Hitler's Pope
by Thomas E. Woods, Jr.
http://www.lewrockwell.com/woods/woods48.html
The Myth of Hitler's Pope:
How Pope Pius XII Rescued Jews from the Nazis
by Rabbi David G. Dalin
Hard as it may be to fathom today, Pope Pius XII was deeply admired in
his day and in the years following his pontificate. This admiration
came from all kinds of quarters. Graham Greene, the liberal Catholic
writer, described him as "a pope who many of us believe will rank among
the greatest." Moving testimonies on the part of prominent European
Jews (see afterword below) likewise indicate the esteem and love that
so much of the world had for him.
That began to change in 1963 with the Berlin premiere of the left-wing
German writer Rolf Hochhuth's fictional play The Deputy, which
portrayed Pius XII as callous and indifferent in the face of Jewish
suffering under the Nazis. Within three years of that event books
critical of Pius began to appear, along with defenses by Jewish
authors. Those defenses, all but forgotten in the present environment,
were substantial. The Anti-Defamation League's representative in
Rome, Joseph L. Lichten, wrote A Question of Judgment, a 1963 monograph
in defense of Pius XII against the fictional depiction of the Pope in
The Deputy. Israeli diplomat Pinchas Lapide, cited to this day by those
who defend the Pope, wrote in his Three Popes and the Jews (1967) that
Pius "was instrumental in saving at least 700,000, but probably as many
as 860,000 Jews from certain death at Nazi hands." The Hungarian Jewish
historian Jeno Levai, outraged by the unjust attacks on Pius XII, wrote
Hungarian Jewry and the Papacy: Pius XII Did Not Remain Silent (English
translation, 1968). Levai, who steeped himself in archival materials of
both Church and state, showed that the papal nuncio and the bishops
"intervened again and again on the instructions of the pope," and that
as a result of these labors "in the autumn and winter of 1944 there was
practically no Catholic Church institution in Budapest where persecuted
Jews did not find refuge."
In recent years the anti-Pius hysteria has reached a pitch that Jews
and non-Jews alike could scarcely have imagined in 1958, the year of
the Pope's death. The most celebrated example, of course, has been
ex-seminarian John Cornwell's 1999 book Hitler's Pope, which makes
Pius XII out to be a supporter of National Socialism who did little or
nothing to stop Adolf Hitler's terrible campaign against the Jews.
Enter Rabbi David Dalin. Rabbi Dalin, who vigorously dissents from the
anti-Pius orthodoxy, suggests in his new book The Myth of Hitler's
Pope: How Pope Pius XII Rescued Jews from the Nazis that the great
pontiff in fact deserves to be recognized as a "righteous Gentile" for
his efforts to rescue Jews from the fate that awaited them at Nazi
hands. "As we approach the fiftieth anniversary of the death of Pius
XII, it would be both historically just and morally appropriate for Yad
Vashem to posthumously recognize and honor Pius XII as one of the
'righteous among the nations.'"
As Rabbi Dalin shows, the Catholic Church, under direct orders from
Pius XII, went to great lengths to shelter and protect Jews throughout
Europe. The Myth of Hitler's Pope is filled with examples of heroism
throughout the European continent, and case after case of rescuers and
rescued alike honoring Pope Pius XII for his defiance of the Nazis.
Particularly moving is the book's discussion of Pius' efforts on
behalf of Slovakian Jews; Rabbi Dalin contends that 20,000 Jews escaped
deportation as a direct result of the Pope's intervention.
Rabbi Dalin devotes considerable attention to the Nazi roundup of Jews
in Rome, which has been the source of much controversy in the Pius XII
debate. Michael Tagliacozzo, the leading authority on that terrible
event (and himself a survivor of the roundup), says Pius XII "was the
only one who intervened to impede the deportation of Jews on October
16, 1943, and he did very much to hide and save thousands of us."
Archival evidence, he says, proves that it was the protests and actions
of Pius XII that were responsible for rescuing 80 percent of Rome's
Jews. At the Pope's behest, Jews were hidden all over the city, in
churches, monasteries, and wherever room for them could be found.
Rabbi Dalin points out that neither Cornwell nor Susan Zuccotti,
another Pius XII critic, mentions the sheltering of three thousand Jews
at Castel Gandolfo, the Pope's own summer residence. "Yet at no other
site in Nazi-occupied Europe were as many Jews saved and sheltered for
as long a period as at Castel Gandolfo during the Nazi occupation of
Rome." Kosher food was served to the Jews sheltered there. Jewish
children were even born in the Pope's private apartments.
When in the summer of 1944 a group of Roman Jews came to thank the Pope
for the protection he had extended to them, Pius replied: "For
centuries, Jews have been unjustly treated and despised. It is time
they were treated with justice and humanity. God wills it and the
Church wills it. Saint Paul tells us that the Jews are our brothers.
They should also be welcomed as our friends."
Rabbi Dalin also notes that prominent Catholics who were honored for
their efforts on behalf of the Jews have pointed to Pope Pius XII as
the inspiration behind their actions. The future Popes John XXIII and
Paul VI, while still Cardinals Roncalli and Montini, respectively,
received high praise for their efforts to shelter and rescue Jews. In
both cases, the future pontiffs shrugged that they were just following
the orders of Pope Pius XII. Cardinal Pietro Palazzini, who hid many
Italian Jews for several months in 1943 and 1944, was honored by Yad
Vashem in 1985 as a "righteous Gentile." Cardinal Palazzini emphasized
that "the merit is entirely Pius XII's, who ordered us to do whatever
we could to save the Jews from persecution."
It was partly because of his sympathy for the Jews and his opposition
to National Socialism that Pius was in fact strongly disliked by the
Nazis; Hitler's regime actually lobbied against the election of
Pacelli to replace Pius XI as pope. Pacelli was referred to as Pius
XI's "Jew-loving" cardinal. Rabbi Dalin points out that "of the
forty-four speeches Pacelli gave in Germany as papal nuncio between
1917 and 1929, forty denounced some aspect of the emerging Nazi
ideology."
As Cardinal Pacelli he had played a central role in the drafting of Mit
Brennender Sorge, Pius XI's 1937 encyclical condemning Nazism. His
inaugural encyclical, Summi Pontificatus (1939), made clear the
incompatibility of National Socialism with the Catholic faith. The New
York Times headline read, "Pope Condemns Dictators, Treaty Violators,
Racism." Allied aircraft even dropped some 88,000 copies of the
Pope's document over Germany in order to undermine the Nazi
government. The abortive Nazi plan to kidnap Pius XII is also rather
difficult to square with the "Hitler's Pope" myth.
Now if what Rabbi Dalin says in this book is true and Pope Pius XII was
in fact a great friend of the Jews, how do we account for the ceaseless
attacks on the wartime pontiff? Let Rabbi Dalin answer that one:
Very few of the many recent books about Pius XII and the Holocaust are
actually about Pius XII and the Holocaust. The liberal bestselling
attacks on the pope and the Catholic Church are really an
intra-Catholic argument about the direction of the Church today. The
Holocaust is simply the biggest club available for liberal Catholics to
use against traditional Catholics in their attempt to bash the papacy
and thereby to smash traditional Catholic teaching....
Dalin concludes: "The anti-papal polemics of ex-seminarians like Garry
Wills and John Cornwell (author of Hitler's Pope), of ex-priests like
James Carroll, and or other lapsed or angry liberal Catholics exploit
the tragedy of the Jewish people during the Holocaust to foster their
own political agenda of forcing changes on the Catholic Church today."
Rabbi Dalin has performed an extraordinary service on behalf of Pope
Pius XII and for the Catholic Church in general. The severity of the
attacks that await him can only be imagined. He deserves Catholics'
support, and their gratitude.
Imagine if this book, in which a rabbi defends Pope Pius XII, became a
national bestseller. The mainstream media, which has gone out of its
way to showcase condemnations of this great pope while ignoring cogent
and persuasive defenses, would be left gasping in shock, scarcely
knowing how to react. What a glorious sight that would be. If you're
like me, you're already out the door to buy a copy and help make it
happen.
Afterword
A sample of the Jewish testimonies included in The Myth of Hitler's
Pope:
We share in the grief of humanity [at the death of Pius XII].... When
fearful martyrdom came to our people in the decade of Nazi terror, the
voice of the pope was raised for the victims. The life of our times was
enriched by a voice speaking out on the great moral truths above the
tumult of daily conflict. We mourn a great servant of peace.
~ Golda Meir
No keener rebuke has come to Nazism than from Pope Pius XI and his
successor, Pope Pius XII.
~ Rabbi Louis Finkelstein, chancellor, Jewish Theological Seminary of
America
In the most difficult hours of which we Jews of Romania have passed
through, the generous assistance of the Holy See...was decisive and
salutary. It is not easy for us to find the right words to express the
warmth and consolation we experienced because of the concern of the
supreme pontiff, who offered a large sum to relieve the sufferings of
deported Jews.... The Jews of Romania will never forget these facts of
historic importance.
~ Rabbi Alexander Safran, chief rabbi of Romania
The people of Israel will never forget what His Holiness and his
illustrious delegates, inspired by the eternal principles of religion,
which form the very foundation of true civilization, are doing for our
unfortunate brothers and sisters in the most tragic hour of our
history, which is living proof of Divine Providence in this world.
~ Rabbi Isaac Herzog, chief rabbi of Israel
I told [Pope Pius XII] that my first duty was to thank him, and through
him the Catholic Church, on behalf of the Jewish public for all they
had done in the various countries to rescue Jews.... We are deeply
grateful to the Catholic Church.
~ Moshe Sharett (who later became Israel's first foreign minister and
second prime minister)
July 25, 2005
Professor Thomas E. Woods, Jr. holds a bachelor's degree in history
from Harvard and his Ph.D. from Columbia. His books include How the
Catholic Church Built Western Civilization (get a free chapter here),
The Church and the Market: A Catholic Defense of the Free Economy, and
the New York Times (and LRC) bestseller The Politically Incorrect Guide
to American History. A longer version of this review will appear in The
Latin Mass magazine, of which Thomas Woods is associate editor.
.
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| User: "Dom" |
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| Title: Re: The Myth of Hitler's Pope: How Pope Pius XII Rescued 700,000 Jews from the Nazis |
01 Aug 2005 08:12:14 AM |
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wrote:
The Myth of Hitler's Pope
by Thomas E. Woods, Jr.
http://www.lewrockwell.com/woods/woods48.html
The Myth of Hitler's Pope:
How Pope Pius XII Rescued Jews from the Nazis
by Rabbi David G. Dalin
Hard as it may be to fathom today, Pope Pius XII was deeply admired in
his day and in the years following his pontificate. This admiration
came from all kinds of quarters. Graham Greene, the liberal Catholic
writer, described him as "a pope who many of us believe will rank among
the greatest." Moving testimonies on the part of prominent European
Jews (see afterword below) likewise indicate the esteem and love that
so much of the world had for him.
That began to change in 1963 with the Berlin premiere of the left-wing
German writer Rolf Hochhuth's fictional play The Deputy, which
portrayed Pius XII as callous and indifferent in the face of Jewish
suffering under the Nazis. ...
The following are three books that deal with facts rather than myths:
The Scarlet Pimpernel of the Vatican," by J. P. Gallagher discusses
the Rome underground, based in the Vatican, that was headed by an Irish
priest, Hugh Joseph O'Flaherty.
"The Assisi Underground," by Alexander Ramati, discusses the
underground headed by the Franciscan friar Rufino Niccacci, who had
been picked by the bishop of Assisi. Ramati entered Assisi with the
Allied troops.
"Black Sabbath- The Politics of Annihilation - The Jews of Rome 1943,"
by Robert Katz, discusses the fate of 1,100 Roman Jews, out of 20,000,
who failed to heed the warnings and were deported to extermination
camps.
DR
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| User: "Bernardz" |
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| Title: Re: The Myth of Hitler's Pope: How Pope Pius XII Rescued 700,000 Jews from the Nazis |
01 Aug 2005 11:21:56 AM |
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In article <1122901934.781957.204370@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com>,
DRosa@teikyopost.edu says...
wordsoftruth114@email.com wrote:
The Myth of Hitler's Pope
by Thomas E. Woods, Jr.
http://www.lewrockwell.com/woods/woods48.html
The Myth of Hitler's Pope:
How Pope Pius XII Rescued Jews from the Nazis
by Rabbi David G. Dalin
Hard as it may be to fathom today, Pope Pius XII was deeply admired in
his day and in the years following his pontificate. This admiration
came from all kinds of quarters. Graham Greene, the liberal Catholic
writer, described him as "a pope who many of us believe will rank among
the greatest." Moving testimonies on the part of prominent European
Jews (see afterword below) likewise indicate the esteem and love that
so much of the world had for him.
That began to change in 1963 with the Berlin premiere of the left-wing
German writer Rolf Hochhuth's fictional play The Deputy, which
portrayed Pius XII as callous and indifferent in the face of Jewish
suffering under the Nazis. ...
The following are three books that deal with facts rather than myths:
The Scarlet Pimpernel of the Vatican," by J. P. Gallagher discusses
the Rome underground, based in the Vatican, that was headed by an Irish
priest, Hugh Joseph O'Flaherty.
"The Assisi Underground," by Alexander Ramati, discusses the
underground headed by the Franciscan friar Rufino Niccacci, who had
been picked by the bishop of Assisi. Ramati entered Assisi with the
Allied troops.
"Black Sabbath- The Politics of Annihilation - The Jews of Rome 1943,"
by Robert Katz, discusses the fate of 1,100 Roman Jews, out of 20,000,
who failed to heed the warnings and were deported to extermination
camps.
DR
The facts are that this pope has much to answer for. These are not
actions from the Vatican but individuals in the Church acting on their
own. What did he really do?
Its hard to imagine that in a strongly Catholic countries of Eastern
Europe that he could not have done much to save Jews if he wanted too.
Not to mention France and parts of Southern Germany. The fact is he did
nothing much Catholics either. Polish Catholics were abandoned by him.
In places where he could have done much, like Yugoslavia with a catholic
clericalist=3Fdominated regime, he did nothing and millions were killed
there under his name - Jews and Serbs. People were rounded killed and
the killers were blessed by Catholic priests watching the killings.
--
The person who is arguing that money is not important almost always is
the person who does not have it.
Observations of Bernard - No 82
.
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| User: "bam" |
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| Title: Re: The Myth of Hitler's Pope: How Pope Pius XII Rescued 700,000 Jews from the Nazis |
01 Aug 2005 02:14:11 PM |
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"Bernardz" <bernardz@nospam.com> wrote in message
news:1122909300.4958a1cbb13d209cbfecc308e23d00e8@bubbanews...
In article <1122901934.781957.204370@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com>,
DRosa@teikyopost.edu says...
wordsoftruth114@email.com wrote:
The Myth of Hitler's Pope
by Thomas E. Woods, Jr.
http://www.lewrockwell.com/woods/woods48.html
The Myth of Hitler's Pope:
How Pope Pius XII Rescued Jews from the Nazis
by Rabbi David G. Dalin
Hard as it may be to fathom today, Pope Pius XII was deeply admired in
his day and in the years following his pontificate. This admiration
came from all kinds of quarters. Graham Greene, the liberal Catholic
writer, described him as "a pope who many of us believe will rank among
the greatest." Moving testimonies on the part of prominent European
Jews (see afterword below) likewise indicate the esteem and love that
so much of the world had for him.
That began to change in 1963 with the Berlin premiere of the left-wing
German writer Rolf Hochhuth's fictional play The Deputy, which
portrayed Pius XII as callous and indifferent in the face of Jewish
suffering under the Nazis. ...
The following are three books that deal with facts rather than myths:
The Scarlet Pimpernel of the Vatican," by J. P. Gallagher discusses
the Rome underground, based in the Vatican, that was headed by an Irish
priest, Hugh Joseph O'Flaherty.
"The Assisi Underground," by Alexander Ramati, discusses the
underground headed by the Franciscan friar Rufino Niccacci, who had
been picked by the bishop of Assisi. Ramati entered Assisi with the
Allied troops.
"Black Sabbath- The Politics of Annihilation - The Jews of Rome 1943,"
by Robert Katz, discusses the fate of 1,100 Roman Jews, out of 20,000,
who failed to heed the warnings and were deported to extermination
camps.
DR
The facts are that this pope has much to answer for. These are not
actions from the Vatican but individuals in the Church acting on their
own. What did he really do?
Its hard to imagine that in a strongly Catholic countries of Eastern
Europe that he could not have done much to save Jews if he wanted too.
Not to mention France and parts of Southern Germany. The fact is he did
nothing much Catholics either. Polish Catholics were abandoned by him.
In places where he could have done much, like Yugoslavia with a catholic
clericalist=3Fdominated regime, he did nothing and millions were killed
there under his name - Jews and Serbs. People were rounded killed and
the killers were blessed by Catholic priests watching the killings.
Some of you people are so myopic when it comes to the plight of the Jews, I
think you must have completely forgotten that there happened to be a Word
War going on at the same time. Fighting Huns and Japs was the primary goal.
Everything else was way, way, way down the list.
BAM
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| User: "Mickey" |
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| Title: Re: The Myth of Hitler's Pope: How Pope Pius XII Rescued 700,000 Jews from the Nazis |
01 Aug 2005 03:14:35 PM |
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"bam" <mcca5761@bellsouthblahblah.net> wrote in message
news:9wuHe.149$Mo.138@bignews5.bellsouth.net...
"Bernardz" <bernardz@nospam.com> wrote in message
news:1122909300.4958a1cbb13d209cbfecc308e23d00e8@bubbanews...
In article <1122901934.781957.204370@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com>,
DRosa@teikyopost.edu says...
wordsoftruth114@email.com wrote:
The Myth of Hitler's Pope
by Thomas E. Woods, Jr.
http://www.lewrockwell.com/woods/woods48.html
The Myth of Hitler's Pope:
How Pope Pius XII Rescued Jews from the Nazis
by Rabbi David G. Dalin
Hard as it may be to fathom today, Pope Pius XII was deeply admired
in
his day and in the years following his pontificate. This admiration
came from all kinds of quarters. Graham Greene, the liberal Catholic
writer, described him as "a pope who many of us believe will rank
among
the greatest." Moving testimonies on the part of prominent European
Jews (see afterword below) likewise indicate the esteem and love that
so much of the world had for him.
That began to change in 1963 with the Berlin premiere of the
left-wing
German writer Rolf Hochhuth's fictional play The Deputy, which
portrayed Pius XII as callous and indifferent in the face of Jewish
suffering under the Nazis. ...
The following are three books that deal with facts rather than myths:
The Scarlet Pimpernel of the Vatican," by J. P. Gallagher discusses
the Rome underground, based in the Vatican, that was headed by an Irish
priest, Hugh Joseph O'Flaherty.
"The Assisi Underground," by Alexander Ramati, discusses the
underground headed by the Franciscan friar Rufino Niccacci, who had
been picked by the bishop of Assisi. Ramati entered Assisi with the
Allied troops.
"Black Sabbath- The Politics of Annihilation - The Jews of Rome 1943,"
by Robert Katz, discusses the fate of 1,100 Roman Jews, out of 20,000,
who failed to heed the warnings and were deported to extermination
camps.
DR
The facts are that this pope has much to answer for. These are not
actions from the Vatican but individuals in the Church acting on their
own. What did he really do?
Its hard to imagine that in a strongly Catholic countries of Eastern
Europe that he could not have done much to save Jews if he wanted too.
Not to mention France and parts of Southern Germany. The fact is he did
nothing much Catholics either. Polish Catholics were abandoned by him.
In places where he could have done much, like Yugoslavia with a catholic
clericalist=3Fdominated regime, he did nothing and millions were killed
there under his name - Jews and Serbs. People were rounded killed and
the killers were blessed by Catholic priests watching the killings.
Some of you people are so myopic when it comes to the plight of the Jews,
I
think you must have completely forgotten that there happened to be a Word
War going on at the same time. Fighting Huns and Japs was the primary
goal.
Everything else was way, way, way down the list.
A Word War, eh?
Why doesn't that surprise me?
.
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| User: "Hugo S. Cunningham" |
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| Title: Re: The Myth of Hitler's Pope: How Pope Pius XII Rescued 700,000 Jews from the Nazis |
03 Aug 2005 01:49:48 PM |
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On Mon, 1 Aug 2005 15:14:11 -0400, "bam"
<mcca5761@bellsouthblahblah.net> wrote:
"Bernardz" <bernardz@nospam.com> wrote in message
news:1122909300.4958a1cbb13d209cbfecc308e23d00e8@bubbanews...
In article <1122901934.781957.204370@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com>,
DRosa@teikyopost.edu says...
wordsoftruth114@email.com wrote:
The Myth of Hitler's Pope
by Thomas E. Woods, Jr.
http://www.lewrockwell.com/woods/woods48.html
The Myth of Hitler's Pope:
How Pope Pius XII Rescued Jews from the Nazis
by Rabbi David G. Dalin
Hard as it may be to fathom today, Pope Pius XII was deeply admired in
his day and in the years following his pontificate. This admiration
came from all kinds of quarters. Graham Greene, the liberal Catholic
writer, described him as "a pope who many of us believe will rank among
the greatest." Moving testimonies on the part of prominent European
Jews (see afterword below) likewise indicate the esteem and love that
so much of the world had for him.
As David I. Kertzer (<i>The Popes Against the Jews: The Vatican's Role
in the Rise of Modern Anti-Semitism</i>) pointed out, those Jews and
others assumed Pius XII was behind the efforts of many Italian
Catholics, both clergy and laity, to hide Italian Jews from the Nazis
in 1943-1945. Later scholarship, however, would find that the
rescuers had acted on their own, without any support or encouragement
from Pius XII.
[...]
The facts are that this pope has much to answer for. These
[actions by Italian Catholics to save Jews}
are not
actions from the Vatican but individuals in the Church acting on their
own. What did he really do?
Its hard to imagine that in a strongly Catholic countries of Eastern
Europe that he could not have done much to save Jews if he wanted too.
Not to mention France and parts of Southern Germany. The fact is he did
nothing much Catholics either. Polish Catholics were abandoned by him.
In places where he could have done much, like Yugoslavia with a catholic
clericalist=3Fdominated regime, he did nothing and millions were killed
there under his name - Jews and Serbs. People were rounded killed and
the killers were blessed by Catholic priests watching the killings.
Some of you people are so myopic when it comes to the plight of the Jews, I
think you must have completely forgotten that there happened to be a Word
War going on at the same time. Fighting Huns and Japs was the primary goal.
Everything else was way, way, way down the list.
And what, pray tell, did Pius XII do to "fight Huns and Japs"?
--Hugo S. Cunningham
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| User: "Susan Cohen" |
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| Title: Re: The Myth of Hitler's Pope: How Pope Pius XII Rescued 700,000 Jews from the Nazis |
04 Aug 2005 07:13:13 AM |
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"Hugo S. Cunningham" <checkwebsite@cyberussr.com> wrote in message
news:8242f15lhc6ufkhro2vd7oi1e875g1qfv1@4ax.com...
On Mon, 1 Aug 2005 15:14:11 -0400, "bam"
<mcca5761@bellsouthblahblah.net> wrote:
Some of you people are so myopic when it comes to the plight of the Jews,
I
think you must have completely forgotten that there happened to be a Word
War going on at the same time. Fighting Huns and Japs was the primary
goal.
Everything else was way, way, way down the list.
And what, pray tell, did Pius XII do to "fight Huns and Japs"?
And the Jews were in danger befotre the war started.
But that's myopia for you.
Susan
--Hugo S. Cunningham
.
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| User: "•€R.L.Measures" |
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| Title: Re: The Myth of Hitler's Pope: How Pope Pius XII Rescued 700,000 Jews from the Nazis |
04 Aug 2005 10:05:26 PM |
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In article <tDnIe.12721$Bx5.6507@trnddc09>, "Susan Cohen"
<flaviaR@verizon.net> wrote:
"Hugo S. Cunningham" <checkwebsite@cyberussr.com> wrote in message
news:8242f15lhc6ufkhro2vd7oi1e875g1qfv1@4ax.com...
On Mon, 1 Aug 2005 15:14:11 -0400, "bam"
<mcca5761@bellsouthblahblah.net> wrote:
Some of you people are so myopic when it comes to the plight of the Jews,
I
think you must have completely forgotten that there happened to be a Word
War going on at the same time. Fighting Huns and Japs was the primary
goal.
Everything else was way, way, way down the list.
And what, pray tell, did Pius XII do to "fight Huns and Japs"?
And the Jews were in danger befotre the war started.
But that's myopia for you.
• It smells kind of like denial to me, Susan.
--
€ R.L.Measures, 805-386-3734, www.somis.org
remove _ from e-mail adr
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| User: "øéòéï áøúåïý/Riain Barton" |
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| Title: Re: The Myth of Hitler's Pope: How Pope Pius XII Rescued 700,000 Jews from the Nazis |
01 Aug 2005 05:00:06 PM |
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Spoken like the true racist, bigoted ***** you are.
"bam" <mcca5761@bellsouthblahblah.net> wrote in message
news:9wuHe.149$Mo.138@bignews5.bellsouth.net...
:
: "Bernardz" <bernardz@nospam.com> wrote in message
: news:1122909300.4958a1cbb13d209cbfecc308e23d00e8@bubbanews...
: > In article <1122901934.781957.204370@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com>,
: > says...
: >> wrote:
: >> > The Myth of Hitler's Pope
: >> >
: >> > by Thomas E. Woods, Jr.
: >> >
: >> > http://www.lewrockwell.com/woods/woods48.html
: >> >
: >> > The Myth of Hitler's Pope:
: >> > How Pope Pius XII Rescued Jews from the Nazis
: >> > by Rabbi David G. Dalin
: >> >
: >> > Hard as it may be to fathom today, Pope Pius XII was deeply
admired in
: >> > his day and in the years following his pontificate. This
admiration
: >> > came from all kinds of quarters. Graham Greene, the liberal
Catholic
: >> > writer, described him as "a pope who many of us believe will rank
among
: >> > the greatest." Moving testimonies on the part of prominent
European
: >> > Jews (see afterword below) likewise indicate the esteem and love
that
: >> > so much of the world had for him.
: >> >
: >> > That began to change in 1963 with the Berlin premiere of the
left-wing
: >> > German writer Rolf Hochhuth's fictional play The Deputy, which
: >> > portrayed Pius XII as callous and indifferent in the face of
Jewish
: >> > suffering under the Nazis. ...
: >>
: >> The following are three books that deal with facts rather than
myths:
: >>
: >> The Scarlet Pimpernel of the Vatican," by J. P. Gallagher discusses
: >> the Rome underground, based in the Vatican, that was headed by an
Irish
: >>
: >> priest, Hugh Joseph O'Flaherty.
: >>
: >> "The Assisi Underground," by Alexander Ramati, discusses the
: >> underground headed by the Franciscan friar Rufino Niccacci, who had
: >> been picked by the bishop of Assisi. Ramati entered Assisi with the
: >> Allied troops.
: >>
: >> "Black Sabbath- The Politics of Annihilation - The Jews of Rome
1943,"
: >> by Robert Katz, discusses the fate of 1,100 Roman Jews, out of
20,000,
: >> who failed to heed the warnings and were deported to extermination
: >> camps.
: >>
: >> DR
: >>
: >>
: >
: > The facts are that this pope has much to answer for. These are not
: > actions from the Vatican but individuals in the Church acting on
their
: > own. What did he really do?
: >
: > Its hard to imagine that in a strongly Catholic countries of Eastern
: > Europe that he could not have done much to save Jews if he wanted
too.
: > Not to mention France and parts of Southern Germany. The fact is he
did
: > nothing much Catholics either. Polish Catholics were abandoned by
him.
: >
: > In places where he could have done much, like Yugoslavia with a
catholic
: > clericalist=3Fdominated regime, he did nothing and millions were
killed
: > there under his name - Jews and Serbs. People were rounded killed
and
: > the killers were blessed by Catholic priests watching the killings.
:
: Some of you people are so myopic when it comes to the plight of the
Jews, I
: think you must have completely forgotten that there happened to be a
Word
: War going on at the same time. Fighting Huns and Japs was the primary
goal.
: Everything else was way, way, way down the list.
:
: BAM
:
:
.
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| User: "Mickey" |
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| Title: Re: The Myth of Hitler's Pope: How Pope Pius XII Rescued 700,000 Jews from the Nazis |
01 Aug 2005 05:34:34 PM |
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"øéòéï áøúåïý/Riain Barton" <riain@zion.org.il> wrote in message
news:wSwHe.1030$jq.808@bignews3.bellsouth.net...
Spoken like the true racist, bigoted ***** you are.
Yup, he sure is. And now you have slithered down to his level. How's teh
view from down there?
"bam" <mcca5761@bellsouthblahblah.net> wrote in message
news:9wuHe.149$Mo.138@bignews5.bellsouth.net...
:
: "Bernardz" <bernardz@nospam.com> wrote in message
: news:1122909300.4958a1cbb13d209cbfecc308e23d00e8@bubbanews...
: > In article <1122901934.781957.204370@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com>,
: > says...
: >> wrote:
: >> > The Myth of Hitler's Pope
: >> >
: >> > by Thomas E. Woods, Jr.
: >> >
: >> > http://www.lewrockwell.com/woods/woods48.html
: >> >
: >> > The Myth of Hitler's Pope:
: >> > How Pope Pius XII Rescued Jews from the Nazis
: >> > by Rabbi David G. Dalin
: >> >
: >> > Hard as it may be to fathom today, Pope Pius XII was deeply
admired in
: >> > his day and in the years following his pontificate. This
admiration
: >> > came from all kinds of quarters. Graham Greene, the liberal
Catholic
: >> > writer, described him as "a pope who many of us believe will rank
among
: >> > the greatest." Moving testimonies on the part of prominent
European
: >> > Jews (see afterword below) likewise indicate the esteem and love
that
: >> > so much of the world had for him.
: >> >
: >> > That began to change in 1963 with the Berlin premiere of the
left-wing
: >> > German writer Rolf Hochhuth's fictional play The Deputy, which
: >> > portrayed Pius XII as callous and indifferent in the face of
Jewish
: >> > suffering under the Nazis. ...
: >>
: >> The following are three books that deal with facts rather than
myths:
: >>
: >> The Scarlet Pimpernel of the Vatican," by J. P. Gallagher discusses
: >> the Rome underground, based in the Vatican, that was headed by an
Irish
: >>
: >> priest, Hugh Joseph O'Flaherty.
: >>
: >> "The Assisi Underground," by Alexander Ramati, discusses the
: >> underground headed by the Franciscan friar Rufino Niccacci, who had
: >> been picked by the bishop of Assisi. Ramati entered Assisi with the
: >> Allied troops.
: >>
: >> "Black Sabbath- The Politics of Annihilation - The Jews of Rome
1943,"
: >> by Robert Katz, discusses the fate of 1,100 Roman Jews, out of
20,000,
: >> who failed to heed the warnings and were deported to extermination
: >> camps.
: >>
: >> DR
: >>
: >>
: >
: > The facts are that this pope has much to answer for. These are not
: > actions from the Vatican but individuals in the Church acting on
their
: > own. What did he really do?
: >
: > Its hard to imagine that in a strongly Catholic countries of Eastern
: > Europe that he could not have done much to save Jews if he wanted
too.
: > Not to mention France and parts of Southern Germany. The fact is he
did
: > nothing much Catholics either. Polish Catholics were abandoned by
him.
: >
: > In places where he could have done much, like Yugoslavia with a
catholic
: > clericalist=3Fdominated regime, he did nothing and millions were
killed
: > there under his name - Jews and Serbs. People were rounded killed
and
: > the killers were blessed by Catholic priests watching the killings.
:
: Some of you people are so myopic when it comes to the plight of the
Jews, I
: think you must have completely forgotten that there happened to be a
Word
: War going on at the same time. Fighting Huns and Japs was the primary
goal.
: Everything else was way, way, way down the list.
:
: BAM
:
:
.
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| User: "Ash" |
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| Title: Re: The Myth of Hitler's Pope: How Pope Pius XII Rescued 700,000Jews from the Nazis |
01 Aug 2005 07:39:02 PM |
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Mickey wrote:
"øéòéï áøúåïý/Riain Barton" <riain@zion.org.il> wrote in message
news:wSwHe.1030$jq.808@bignews3.bellsouth.net...
Spoken like the true racist, bigoted ***** you are.
Yup, he sure is. And now you have slithered down to his level. How's teh
view from down there?
Riain has always been at that level
.
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| User: "Susan Cohen" |
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| Title: Re: The Myth of Hitler's Pope: How Pope Pius XII Rescued 700,000 Jews from the Nazis |
01 Aug 2005 10:12:13 PM |
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"Ash" <ashamanic@winterfell73.fsnet.co.uk> wrote in message
news:dcmfb3$h9n$1@newsg4.svr.pol.co.uk...
Mickey wrote:
"øéòéï áøúåïý/Riain Barton" <riain@zion.org.il> wrote in message
news:wSwHe.1030$jq.808@bignews3.bellsouth.net...
Spoken like the true racist, bigoted ***** you are.
Yup, he sure is. And now you have slithered down to his level. How's teh
view from down there?
Riain has always been at that level
No, Riain is staunchly anti-racist.
His *language*, however, is what's at the same level.
Susan
.
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| User: "Mickey" |
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| Title: Re: The Myth of Hitler's Pope: How Pope Pius XII Rescued 700,000 Jews from the Nazis |
02 Aug 2005 08:26:36 AM |
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"Susan Cohen" <flaviaR@verizon.net> wrote in message
news:hwBHe.12642$kc6.5580@trnddc03...
"Ash" <ashamanic@winterfell73.fsnet.co.uk> wrote in message
news:dcmfb3$h9n$1@newsg4.svr.pol.co.uk...
Mickey wrote:
"øéòéï áøúåïý/Riain Barton" <riain@zion.org.il> wrote in message
news:wSwHe.1030$jq.808@bignews3.bellsouth.net...
Spoken like the true racist, bigoted ***** you are.
Yup, he sure is. And now you have slithered down to his level. How's
teh
view from down there?
Riain has always been at that level
No, Riain is staunchly anti-racist.
His *language*, however, is what's at the same level.
As all we ever see is his language, that is a difference without
distinction.
Mickey
.
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| User: "øéòéï áøúåïý/Riain Barton" |
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| Title: Re: The Myth of Hitler's Pope: How Pope Pius XII Rescued 700,000 Jews from the Nazis |
01 Aug 2005 11:03:11 PM |
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Mickey the hypocrite who also uses cuss words and makes it know that he
hates all Muslims!
"Ash" <ashamanic@winterfell73.fsnet.co.uk> wrote in message
news:dcmfb3$h9n$1@newsg4.svr.pol.co.uk...
: Mickey wrote:
: > "øéòéï áøúåïý/Riain Barton" <riain@zion.org.il> wrote in message
: > news:wSwHe.1030$jq.808@bignews3.bellsouth.net...
: >
: >>Spoken like the true racist, bigoted ***** you are.
: >
: >
: > Yup, he sure is. And now you have slithered down to his level. How's
teh
: > view from down there?
: >
: Riain has always been at that level
.
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| User: "Mickey" |
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| Title: Re: The Myth of Hitler's Pope: How Pope Pius XII Rescued 700,000 Jews from the Nazis |
02 Aug 2005 08:26:02 AM |
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"øéòéï áøúåïý/Riain Barton" <riain@zion.org.il> wrote in message
news:FaCHe.1354$0p.877@bignews6.bellsouth.net...
Mickey the hypocrite who also uses cuss words and makes it know that he
hates all Muslims!
Ah, so being a loudmouth isn't enough for you, eh? Now you degenerate into
lying as well. How NOT surprising is THAT?
"Ash" <ashamanic@winterfell73.fsnet.co.uk> wrote in message
news:dcmfb3$h9n$1@newsg4.svr.pol.co.uk...
: Mickey wrote:
: > "øéòéï áøúåïý/Riain Barton" <riain@zion.org.il> wrote in message
: > news:wSwHe.1030$jq.808@bignews3.bellsouth.net...
: >
: >>Spoken like the true racist, bigoted ***** you are.
: >
: >
: > Yup, he sure is. And now you have slithered down to his level. How's
teh
: > view from down there?
: >
: Riain has always been at that level
.
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| User: "SCR Insurgency" |
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| Title: Re: The Myth of Hitler's Pope: How Pope Pius XII Rescued 700,000 Jews from the Nazis |
01 Aug 2005 02:17:16 PM |
|
|
:
: The facts are that this pope has much to answer for. These are not
: actions from the Vatican but individuals in the Church acting on their
: own. What did he really do?
:
Answer for? There are no telephones in hell.
Following your logic though, blame Monica Lewinsky, not Bill Clinton.
.
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| User: "Mickey" |
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| Title: Re: The Myth of Hitler's Pope: How Pope Pius XII Rescued 700,000 Jews from the Nazis |
01 Aug 2005 05:35:46 PM |
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"SCR Insurgency" <FranceskiSux@MTRPsux2.de> wrote in message
news:0zuHe.14244$sf6.7911@fe08.lga...
:
: The facts are that this pope has much to answer for. These are not
: actions from the Vatican but individuals in the Church acting on their
: own. What did he really do?
:
Answer for? There are no telephones in hell.
Following your logic though, blame Monica Lewinsky, not Bill Clinton.
And you think she bares no weight of guilt? She didn't KNOW he was married?
Apologist!
.
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| User: "Susan Cohen" |
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| Title: Re: The Myth of Hitler's Pope: How Pope Pius XII Rescued 700,000 Jews from the Nazis |
01 Aug 2005 10:08:57 PM |
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"SCR Insurgency" <FranceskiSux@MTRPsux2.de> wrote in message
news:0zuHe.14244$sf6.7911@fe08.lga...
:
: The facts are that this pope has much to answer for. These are not
: actions from the Vatican but individuals in the Church acting on their
: own. What did he really do?
:
Answer for? There are no telephones in hell.
Following your logic though, blame Monica Lewinsky, not Bill Clinton.
Are you suggesting she was victimized?
Susan
.
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| User: "Toby" |
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| Title: Re: The Myth of Hitler's Pope: How Pope Pius XII Rescued 700,000 Jews from the Nazis |
02 Aug 2005 02:13:02 AM |
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"Susan Cohen" <flaviaR@verizon.net> wrote in message
news:dtBHe.12640$kc6.7071@trnddc03...
"SCR Insurgency" <FranceskiSux@MTRPsux2.de> wrote in message
news:0zuHe.14244$sf6.7911@fe08.lga...
:
: The facts are that this pope has much to answer for. These are not
: actions from the Vatican but individuals in the Church acting on their
: own. What did he really do?
:
Answer for? There are no telephones in hell.
Following your logic though, blame Monica Lewinsky, not Bill Clinton.
Are you suggesting she was victimized?
that nice dress....ruined...
Toby
.
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| User: "Susan Cohen" |
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| Title: Re: The Myth of Hitler's Pope: How Pope Pius XII Rescued 700,000 Jews from the Nazis |
02 Aug 2005 03:41:09 AM |
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"Toby" <zdftokyo@gool.com> wrote in message
news:42ef1c99$0$493$bb4e3ad8@newscene.com...
"Susan Cohen" <flaviaR@verizon.net> wrote in message
news:dtBHe.12640$kc6.7071@trnddc03...
"SCR Insurgency" <FranceskiSux@MTRPsux2.de> wrote in message
news:0zuHe.14244$sf6.7911@fe08.lga...
:
: The facts are that this pope has much to answer for. These are not
: actions from the Vatican but individuals in the Church acting on their
: own. What did he really do?
:
Answer for? There are no telephones in hell.
Following your logic though, blame Monica Lewinsky, not Bill Clinton.
Are you suggesting she was victimized?
that nice dress....ruined...
FWIU, she could have had it cleaned, but didn't.
Too gross for words.
Susan
Toby
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| User: "Toby" |
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| Title: Re: The Myth of Hitler's Pope: How Pope Pius XII Rescued 700,000 Jews from the Nazis |
02 Aug 2005 05:29:03 AM |
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FWIU, she could have had it cleaned, but didn't.
Too gross for words.
Wasn't it Linda Tripp who convinced her to save it "in situ"?
Better than a pair of presidential cufflinks--personalized.
Toby
.
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| User: "Susan Cohen" |
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| Title: Re: The Myth of Hitler's Pope: How Pope Pius XII Rescued 700,000 Jews from the Nazis |
02 Aug 2005 06:16:01 AM |
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"Toby" <kymarto123@ybb.ne.jpp> wrote in message
news:42ef4a9e$0$16178$bb4e3ad8@newscene.com...
FWIU, she could have had it cleaned, but didn't.
Too gross for words.
Wasn't it Linda Tripp who convinced her to save it "in situ"?
Yes, but that doesn't make it any less gross!
Susan
Better than a pair of presidential cufflinks--personalized.
Toby
.
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| User: "•€R.L.Measures" |
|
| Title: Re: The Myth of Hitler's Pope: How Pope Pius XII Rescued 700,000 Jews from the Nazis |
02 Aug 2005 08:20:54 AM |
|
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In article <RBIHe.12790$kc6.8175@trnddc03>, "Susan Cohen"
<flaviaR@verizon.net> wrote:
"Toby" <kymarto123@ybb.ne.jpp> wrote in message
news:42ef4a9e$0$16178$bb4e3ad8@newscene.com...
FWIU, she could have had it cleaned, but didn't.
Too gross for words.
Wasn't it Linda Tripp who convinced her to save it "in situ"?
Yes, but that doesn't make it any less gross!
*** What's gross about human semen? That is half of how you and I got
here, Susan
cheers
--
€ R.L.Measures, 805-386-3734, www.somis.org
remove _ from e-mail adr
.
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| User: "Norma" |
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| Title: Re: The Myth of Hitler's Pope: How Pope Pius XII Rescued 700,000 Jews from the Nazis |
02 Aug 2005 09:23:28 AM |
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".?R.L.Measures" <r_@somis.org> wrote in message
news:r_-0208050620540001@192.168.1.103...
In article <RBIHe.12790$kc6.8175@trnddc03>, "Susan Cohen"
<flaviaR@verizon.net> wrote:
"Toby" <kymarto123@ybb.ne.jpp> wrote in message
news:42ef4a9e$0$16178$bb4e3ad8@newscene.com...
FWIU, she could have had it cleaned, but didn't.
Too gross for words.
Wasn't it Linda Tripp who convinced her to save it "in situ"?
Yes, but that doesn't make it any less gross!
*** What's gross about human semen? That is half of how you and I got
here, Susan
cheers
I don't think Susan was calling the semen gross, it was the devious actions,
which certainly speak of entrapment.
--
? R.L.Measures, 805-386-3734, www.somis.org
remove _ from e-mail adr
.
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| User: "Susan Cohen" |
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| Title: Re: The Myth of Hitler's Pope: How Pope Pius XII Rescued 700,000 Jews from the Nazis |
02 Aug 2005 11:36:34 AM |
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"Norma" <njb904@charter.net> wrote in message
news:BlLHe.404$8D6.344@fe06.lga...
I don't think Susan was calling the semen gross, it was the devious
actions, which certainly speak of entrapment.
It was having it on one's clothes and deliberately not cleaning it off. -
even without the thoughts of what use to which she wanted to put it.
Susan
.
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| User: "Norma" |
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| Title: Re: The Myth of Hitler's Pope: How Pope Pius XII Rescued 700,000 Jews from the Nazis |
02 Aug 2005 01:15:42 PM |
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"Susan Cohen" <flaviaR@verizon.net> wrote in message
news:miNHe.9992$Bx5.8915@trnddc09...
"Norma" <njb904@charter.net> wrote in message
news:BlLHe.404$8D6.344@fe06.lga...
I don't think Susan was calling the semen gross, it was the devious
actions, which certainly speak of entrapment.
It was having it on one's clothes and deliberately not cleaning it off. -
even without the thoughts of what use to which she wanted to put it.
Susan
The entrapment comes from me, Susan, I am much more paranoid than you are.
Yes, just not cleaning it for such a very long time is very, very
curious--thus my paranoia.
Norma
.
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| User: "Susan Cohen" |
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| Title: Re: The Myth of Hitler's Pope: How Pope Pius XII Rescued 700,000 Jews from the Nazis |
03 Aug 2005 12:21:09 AM |
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"Norma" <njb904@charter.net> wrote in message
news:iLOHe.623$c45.389@fe05.lga...
"Susan Cohen" <flaviaR@verizon.net> wrote in message
news:miNHe.9992$Bx5.8915@trnddc09...
"Norma" <njb904@charter.net> wrote in message
news:BlLHe.404$8D6.344@fe06.lga...
I don't think Susan was calling the semen gross, it was the devious
actions, which certainly speak of entrapment.
It was having it on one's clothes and deliberately not cleaning it off. -
even without the thoughts of what use to which she wanted to put it.
Susan
The entrapment comes from me, Susan, I am much more paranoid than you are.
Yes, just not cleaning it for such a very long time is very, very
curious--thus my paranoia.
Oh, no - am *sure* there was entrapment involved, there, too - esp. from the
mind of Linda Tripp. I was only saying that the mere keeping of it on her
dress, by itself, was gross. Keeping it for entrapment was *morally*
disgusting..
Susan
Norma
.
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| User: "•€R.L.Measures" |
|
| Title: Re: The Myth of Hitler's Pope: How Pope Pius XII Rescued 700,000 Jews from the Nazis |
03 Aug 2005 06:43:28 AM |
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In article <9vYHe.12474$Bx5.2404@trnddc09>, "Susan Cohen"
<flaviaR@verizon.net> wrote:
"Norma" <njb904@charter.net> wrote in message
news:iLOHe.623$c45.389@fe05.lga...
"Susan Cohen" <flaviaR@verizon.net> wrote in message
news:miNHe.9992$Bx5.8915@trnddc09...
"Norma" <njb904@charter.net> wrote in message
news:BlLHe.404$8D6.344@fe06.lga...
I don't think Susan was calling the semen gross, it was the devious
actions, which certainly speak of entrapment.
It was having it on one's clothes and deliberately not cleaning it off. -
even without the thoughts of what use to which she wanted to put it.
Susan
The entrapment comes from me, Susan, I am much more paranoid than you are.
Yes, just not cleaning it for such a very long time is very, very
curious--thus my paranoia.
Oh, no - am *sure* there was entrapment involved, there, too - esp. from the
mind of Linda Tripp. I was only saying that the mere keeping of it on her
dress, by itself, was gross. Keeping it for entrapment was *morally*
disgusting..
*** Entrapment? Wild Bill said Monica way lying about having given him a
knob-job in the Presidential Study. The DNA of the semen on the blue
dress proved that she was telling the truth and that Bill was the
ejaculator.
--
€ R.L.Measures, 805-386-3734, www.somis.org
remove _ from e-mail adr
.
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| User: "G*rd*n" |
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| Title: Re: The Myth of Hitler's Pope: How Pope Pius XII Rescued 700,000 Jews from the Nazis |
03 Aug 2005 08:02:47 AM |
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...
r_@somis.org (•€R.L.Measures):
*** Entrapment? Wild Bill said Monica way lying about having given him a
knob-job in the Presidential Study. The DNA of the semen on the blue
dress proved that she was telling the truth and that Bill was the
ejaculator.
_Entrapment_ is the deliberate offering of an opportunity to
commit a crime in the anticipation of then using the fact of
the crime against the perpetrator. According to what she said
later, Lewinsky went to some effort to interest Clinton
sexually. Had she had the intention of then using a
positive response to her actions against him, that would
be entrapment.
.
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| User: "Rostyslaw J. Lewyckyj" |
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| Title: Lewinsky/Clinton Tangent off of (Re: The Myth of Hitler's Pope: HowPope Pius XII ... |
04 Aug 2005 01:22:00 PM |
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G*rd*n wrote:
...
r_@somis.org (??R.L.Measures):
*** Entrapment? Wild Bill said Monica way lying about having given him a
knob-job in the Presidential Study. The DNA of the semen on the blue
dress proved that she was telling the truth and that Bill was the
ejaculator.
_Entrapment_ is the deliberate offering of an opportunity to
commit a crime in the anticipation of then using the fact of
the crime against the perpetrator. According to what she said
later, Lewinsky went to some effort to interest Clinton
sexually. Had she had the intention of then using a
positive response to her actions against him, that would
be entrapment.
I'm so glad that no one has turned this into a religious/cultural
tussle, of Jewish morals vs Baptist morals.
After all Monica was not a married woman, so it wasn't adultery,
(which is a man having relations with someone else's wife,
i.e. violation of another mans' property rights)
And that wasn't the impeachable offence anyway!
.
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| User: "G*rd*n" |
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| Title: Re: Lewinsky/Clinton Tangent off of (Re: The Myth of Hitler's Pope: HowPope Pius XII ... |
04 Aug 2005 03:41:47 PM |
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...
r_@somis.org (??R.L.Measures):
*** Entrapment? Wild Bill said Monica way lying about having given him a
knob-job in the Presidential Study. The DNA of the semen on the blue
dress proved that she was telling the truth and that Bill was the
ejaculator.
G*rd*n:
_Entrapment_ is the deliberate offering of an opportunity to
commit a crime in the anticipation of then using the fact of
the crime against the perpetrator. According to what she said
later, Lewinsky went to some effort to interest Clinton
sexually. Had she had the intention of then using a
positive response to her actions against him, that would
be entrapment.
urjlew@bellsouth.net:
I'm so glad that no one has turned this into a religious/cultural
tussle, of Jewish morals vs Baptist morals.
After all Monica was not a married woman, so it wasn't adultery,
(which is a man having relations with someone else's wife,
i.e. violation of another mans' property rights)
And that wasn't the impeachable offence anyway!
The idea of entrapment arises because Lewinsky saved the
dress -- normally, one would think she would have had it
cleaned. Of course, she might have been saving it as a
souvenir to show her grandchildren. But then there is the
fact that she was gossiping with Linda Tripp about her
adventures, and Tripp was recording the gossip. The
conventional wisdom is that Lewinsky was merely babbling
about her exciting life to a friend, and Tripp was merely
recording the babble with the intention of writing a book or
otherwise turning the babble to profit, and that Tripp's
work happened to come to the attention of a group of people
who were trying to get something -- anything -- on Clinton.
But you could see it working the other way -- Vast Right-
wing Conspiracy to Tripp to Lewinsky, Lewinsky's job being
to seduce Clinton and then get something material to prove
it. Seems like a long shot, though.
.
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