The Myth of Pope Joan



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Topic: Religions > Atheism
User: "words of truth"
Date: 08 Jan 2006 07:15:44 AM
Object: The Myth of Pope Joan
http://www.envoymagazine.com/EnvoyEncore/Detail.asp?BlogID=2509
The Myth of Pope Joan
By Patrick Madrid
POPE FICTION # 19:
In the middle ages, there was a "Pope Joan," a woman who hid her gender
and rose through the ranks of the Church, became a cardinal and was
elected pope. No one knew she was a woman until, during a papal
procession through the streets of Rome, she went into labor and gave
birth to a child. She and the baby were killed on the spot by the mob,
enraged at her imposture.
A LOT OF THINGS are said about the alleged "Pope Joan." Depending on
who is telling the story, she was a courageous feminist, a clever
opportunist, a brilliant scholar who couldn't make it as a woman in a
man's world. She is said to have been a wise ruler and an astute
theologian, though, oddly, no decree or theological teaching purporting
to have come from her has made its way down to our day.
In any case, the fact is, there was no Pope Joan. She exists only as
pure legend, but one that makes for a sexy story. And when it comes to
sexy stories, you know Hollywood will try its hand at making a
blockbuster out of this piece of pope fiction.
New Line Cinema (that's right, the same good folks who produced The
Last Temptation of Christ) has reportedly bought the movie rights to
Pope Joan, the best-selling 1996 novel by Donna Woolfolk Cross. Her
book is couched as an historical "novel" - embellishing on a grand
scale the rather sparse details that have clung to the legend of a
brilliant, plain girl who rises to the highest levels in Church
service, culminating in her being elected pope by an unsuspecting
college of cardinals.
The way the book is written and the way it's being promoted support my
concern that it will be seen by most of its historically ignorant
readers, not as a novel, a fiction, but as a real biography of the one
woman who "made it to the top." When the movie comes out, this problem
will certainly grow in proportions.
It's important to remember that even if there had been a female
impostor pope, this would just mean that an invalid election had taken
place, nothing more. Other invalidly elected claimants to the papal
office have come and gone over the centuries, and the fact that a woman
made that list would simply mean that a woman made that list, She would
not have been pope - no one invalidly elected would be. And nothing in
the Church's teachings about the papacy would be injured or disproved.
But in reality, the Pope Joan story is all sizzle and no steak. The
basic outline of the main legend (actually, there have been several
competing legends over the centuries) has it that in the ninth or tenth
century, a plain but extraordinarily brilliant young woman contrived to
enter the university disguised as a man. Her intellect outstripped her
male classmates and she shot to the top rank of students. Talk of her
prowess in law, science, rhetoric, philosophy and languages was
widespread.
In another legend, popularized by several 13th century works such as
the Chronicle of Martin Polonus, the Universal Chronicle of Metz and
Wonders of the City of Rome, she traveled first to Greece with her
boyfriend (why he wanted a girlfriend who disguised herself as a man is
unknown), made a name for herself in the university there, then
traveled to Rome.
Here all the legends converge into the main one that has come down to
our day. Once in Rome, Joan managed to enter religious life (although
no legend is able to say which order she entered), was ordained a
priest and earned a high reputation as a notary in the papal court.
Eventually, she was noticed by the pope and made a cardinal. You can
guess what happens next. She is eventually elected pope, takes the name
John, and sets about skillfully ruling the Church, It's at this point
that the most dramatic scenes of the story unfold.
The legends vary as to how Joan's gender and identity were discovered.
One holds that she was granted a vision by God in which she was shown
two options for her fate, being discovered and disgraced by the world
or roasting in hell for her crime. She chose the former. Another
version says she got pregnant by one of her curial advisors and somehow
was able to maintain the charade until she gave birth to the baby.
At that point her secret was discovered and she was deposed as pope and
sent to a convent to do penance for the rest of her life. According to
this legend, the child she bore went on to became the bishop of Ostia,
about 30 miles southwest of Rome, and when she died, he had her body
buried there. Of course, no evidence exists to support this.
The main detail these legends have in common is that Joan was
discovered because her hanky panky with a cardinal or secretary
resulted in pregnancy, and the childbirth exposed her fraud. The main
legend is the most gory on this point. In it, Pope Joan goes into labor
while riding in her sede gestiatoria - the portable throne in which
popes were carried - as her procession passed the Coliseum on its way
from St, Peter's Basilica to St. John Lateran Cathedral.
The procession halted, the baby was born, and the confused and angry
onlookers killed Pope Joan and her baby on the spot. Most accounts say
she was killed by stoning, another says she died in childbirth as the
mob watching the spectacle shouted and insulted her. Still another says
she was dragged to death behind a horse as punishment. Either way, the
legends agree that the Romans didn't appreciate the unpleasant
discovery.
Several odd historical details gave weight to the legend, including the
fact that among the carved busts of the popes in the cathedral of
Sienna was one of an unnamed woman, No one knows who created it or how
it was put there, but when Pope Clement VIII (reigned 1592 - 1605)
discovered it, he ordered it reworked enough to represent Pope
Zacharias, whose image had not previously been included in the
collection.
This is not surprising, though, given the widespread belief in Europe
in the Pope Joan legend during the 13th through 18th centuries.
Versions abounded, and many credulous folk, Catholics included, were
sincerely convinced that there had indeed been a female pope.
But the facts of history show otherwise. The primary proofs that this
is all just a fable are these: First, the earliest point that we can
trace the legend to is the mid-13th century, but the legend didn't
really gain wide currency until the late 14th century.
No evidence of any kind exists from the ninth century (when Pope Joan
was alleged to have reigned), nor do we see any in the 10th through
12th centuries. None of the annals or acts of the popes that were
written between the ninth and 13th centuries (and none after that,
either) mention her.
Church historian J. P. Kirsch wrote that "Not one contemporaneous
historical source among the papal histories knows anything about her,
also, no mention is made of her until the middle of the 13th century.
Now it is incredible that the appearance of a 'popess,' if it was a
historical fact, would be noticed by none of the numerous historians
from the 10th to the 13th century.
In the history of the popes, there is no place where this legendary
figure will fit in. Between Leo IV and Benedict III, where Martinus
Polonus places her, she cannot be inserted . . ."(Article on Pope Joan,
Catholic Encyclopedia, 1913).
So where did the legend come from? There are two likely possibilities,
The first is that the Roman population became disgusted with the
corrupt influence wielded over Pope Sergius (reigned 904-911) by the
powerful and wealthy Theodora Theophylact, and more specifically by her
young daughter Morozia, a cunning and exceptionally attractive woman.
It appears that Morozia was Sergius' mistress and bore him at least one
son (the future Pope John XI).
The fabulously wealthy and prestigious Theophylact family wielded
immense power in Rome during the 10th century, even, sadly, over
several popes. This is a sorry episode in the history of the Church,
one which displayed a decadence and immorality that even popes, at
times, could fall prey to - a reminder to us all that men, even the
holiest of men, are not invulnerable to temptation and personal
weakness. Despite their sins, Christ's promise that the Church would be
protected from error was not, nor has it ever been, broken.

From the details of Sergius III's pontificate, it seems clear that he

was a vain, violent and sensuous man. It's quite possible that the
disgusted faithful took to mocking him or one of his immediate
successors because he was perceived to have been under the influence of
the Theophylact women.
Some historians trace the legend of a female pope to Morozia, saying
the people called her "Pope Joan" to mock the weak popes she
controlled, in the same way some American first ladies have been called
"president" to mock their perceived weak husbands.
Another possible explanation for the Pope Joan legend lies in the
conduct of the much maligned Pope John VIII (reigned 872-882). He
appears to have had a very weak personality, even perhaps somewhat
effeminate.
Cardinal Baronius, in his Church history Annals, suggests that John
VIII's reputation as effeminate gave rise to the legend. Indeed, it
would seem that over time, the common folk added ever more lurid
embellishments until the vulgar jokes about the hapless (and certainly
male) pope ballooned and metamorphosed into a female "popessa."
.

User: "Kevin"

Title: Re: The Myth of Pope Joan 08 Feb 2006 05:09:29 PM
"words of truth" <truth760@lycos.com> wrote in message
news:1136677416.355126.319570@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...


http://www.envoymagazine.com/EnvoyEncore/Detail.asp?BlogID=2509



The Myth of Pope Joan

By Patrick Madrid



POPE FICTION # 19:



In the middle ages, there was a "Pope Joan," a woman who hid her gender
and rose through the ranks of the Church, became a cardinal and was
elected pope. No one knew she was a woman until, during a papal
procession through the streets of Rome, she went into labor and gave
birth to a child. She and the baby were killed on the spot by the mob,
enraged at her imposture.

A LOT OF THINGS are said about the alleged "Pope Joan." Depending on
who is telling the story, she was a courageous feminist, a clever
opportunist, a brilliant scholar who couldn't make it as a woman in a
man's world. She is said to have been a wise ruler and an astute
theologian, though, oddly, no decree or theological teaching purporting
to have come from her has made its way down to our day.

In any case, the fact is, there was no Pope Joan. She exists only as
pure legend, but one that makes for a sexy story. And when it comes to
sexy stories, you know Hollywood will try its hand at making a
blockbuster out of this piece of pope fiction.

New Line Cinema (that's right, the same good folks who produced The
Last Temptation of Christ) has reportedly bought the movie rights to
Pope Joan, the best-selling 1996 novel by Donna Woolfolk Cross. Her
book is couched as an historical "novel" - embellishing on a grand
scale the rather sparse details that have clung to the legend of a
brilliant, plain girl who rises to the highest levels in Church
service, culminating in her being elected pope by an unsuspecting
college of cardinals.

The way the book is written and the way it's being promoted support my
concern that it will be seen by most of its historically ignorant
readers, not as a novel, a fiction, but as a real biography of the one
woman who "made it to the top." When the movie comes out, this problem
will certainly grow in proportions.

It's important to remember that even if there had been a female
impostor pope, this would just mean that an invalid election had taken
place, nothing more. Other invalidly elected claimants to the papal
office have come and gone over the centuries, and the fact that a woman
made that list would simply mean that a woman made that list, She would
not have been pope - no one invalidly elected would be. And nothing in
the Church's teachings about the papacy would be injured or disproved.

But in reality, the Pope Joan story is all sizzle and no steak. The
basic outline of the main legend (actually, there have been several
competing legends over the centuries) has it that in the ninth or tenth
century, a plain but extraordinarily brilliant young woman contrived to
enter the university disguised as a man. Her intellect outstripped her
male classmates and she shot to the top rank of students. Talk of her
prowess in law, science, rhetoric, philosophy and languages was
widespread.

In another legend, popularized by several 13th century works such as
the Chronicle of Martin Polonus, the Universal Chronicle of Metz and
Wonders of the City of Rome, she traveled first to Greece with her
boyfriend (why he wanted a girlfriend who disguised herself as a man is
unknown), made a name for herself in the university there, then
traveled to Rome.

Here all the legends converge into the main one that has come down to
our day. Once in Rome, Joan managed to enter religious life (although
no legend is able to say which order she entered), was ordained a
priest and earned a high reputation as a notary in the papal court.

Eventually, she was noticed by the pope and made a cardinal. You can
guess what happens next. She is eventually elected pope, takes the name
John, and sets about skillfully ruling the Church, It's at this point
that the most dramatic scenes of the story unfold.

The legends vary as to how Joan's gender and identity were discovered.
One holds that she was granted a vision by God in which she was shown
two options for her fate, being discovered and disgraced by the world
or roasting in hell for her crime. She chose the former. Another
version says she got pregnant by one of her curial advisors and somehow
was able to maintain the charade until she gave birth to the baby.

At that point her secret was discovered and she was deposed as pope and
sent to a convent to do penance for the rest of her life. According to
this legend, the child she bore went on to became the bishop of Ostia,
about 30 miles southwest of Rome, and when she died, he had her body
buried there. Of course, no evidence exists to support this.

The main detail these legends have in common is that Joan was
discovered because her hanky panky with a cardinal or secretary
resulted in pregnancy, and the childbirth exposed her fraud. The main
legend is the most gory on this point. In it, Pope Joan goes into labor
while riding in her sede gestiatoria - the portable throne in which
popes were carried - as her procession passed the Coliseum on its way
from St, Peter's Basilica to St. John Lateran Cathedral.

The procession halted, the baby was born, and the confused and angry
onlookers killed Pope Joan and her baby on the spot. Most accounts say
she was killed by stoning, another says she died in childbirth as the
mob watching the spectacle shouted and insulted her. Still another says
she was dragged to death behind a horse as punishment. Either way, the
legends agree that the Romans didn't appreciate the unpleasant
discovery.

Several odd historical details gave weight to the legend, including the
fact that among the carved busts of the popes in the cathedral of
Sienna was one of an unnamed woman, No one knows who created it or how
it was put there, but when Pope Clement VIII (reigned 1592 - 1605)
discovered it, he ordered it reworked enough to represent Pope
Zacharias, whose image had not previously been included in the
collection.

This is not surprising, though, given the widespread belief in Europe
in the Pope Joan legend during the 13th through 18th centuries.
Versions abounded, and many credulous folk, Catholics included, were
sincerely convinced that there had indeed been a female pope.

But the facts of history show otherwise. The primary proofs that this
is all just a fable are these: First, the earliest point that we can
trace the legend to is the mid-13th century, but the legend didn't
really gain wide currency until the late 14th century.

No evidence of any kind exists from the ninth century (when Pope Joan
was alleged to have reigned), nor do we see any in the 10th through
12th centuries. None of the annals or acts of the popes that were
written between the ninth and 13th centuries (and none after that,
either) mention her.

Church historian J. P. Kirsch wrote that "Not one contemporaneous
historical source among the papal histories knows anything about her,
also, no mention is made of her until the middle of the 13th century.
Now it is incredible that the appearance of a 'popess,' if it was a
historical fact, would be noticed by none of the numerous historians
from the 10th to the 13th century.

In the history of the popes, there is no place where this legendary
figure will fit in. Between Leo IV and Benedict III, where Martinus
Polonus places her, she cannot be inserted . . ."(Article on Pope Joan,
Catholic Encyclopedia, 1913).

So where did the legend come from? There are two likely possibilities,
The first is that the Roman population became disgusted with the
corrupt influence wielded over Pope Sergius (reigned 904-911) by the
powerful and wealthy Theodora Theophylact, and more specifically by her
young daughter Morozia, a cunning and exceptionally attractive woman.
It appears that Morozia was Sergius' mistress and bore him at least one
son (the future Pope John XI).

The fabulously wealthy and prestigious Theophylact family wielded
immense power in Rome during the 10th century, even, sadly, over
several popes. This is a sorry episode in the history of the Church,
one which displayed a decadence and immorality that even popes, at
times, could fall prey to - a reminder to us all that men, even the
holiest of men, are not invulnerable to temptation and personal
weakness. Despite their sins, Christ's promise that the Church would be
protected from error was not, nor has it ever been, broken.

From the details of Sergius III's pontificate, it seems clear that he

was a vain, violent and sensuous man. It's quite possible that the
disgusted faithful took to mocking him or one of his immediate
successors because he was perceived to have been under the influence of
the Theophylact women.

Some historians trace the legend of a female pope to Morozia, saying
the people called her "Pope Joan" to mock the weak popes she
controlled, in the same way some American first ladies have been called
"president" to mock their perceived weak husbands.

Another possible explanation for the Pope Joan legend lies in the
conduct of the much maligned Pope John VIII (reigned 872-882). He
appears to have had a very weak personality, even perhaps somewhat
effeminate.

Cardinal Baronius, in his Church history Annals, suggests that John
VIII's reputation as effeminate gave rise to the legend. Indeed, it
would seem that over time, the common folk added ever more lurid
embellishments until the vulgar jokes about the hapless (and certainly
male) pope ballooned and metamorphosed into a female "popessa."

Ironically, if there were women popes, there would be a lot less buggering
going on in the church because they wouldn't shield the problem. You are
like some sort of a scared little kitten that a woman could do a mans job in
the church. How pathetic are you.
Kevin
.
User: "bam"

Title: Re: The Myth of Pope Joan 08 Feb 2006 08:18:38 PM
"Kevin" <not@here.com> wrote in message
news:AeqdnWNvpvq353fenZ2dnUVZ_tWdnZ2d@tbaytel.net...


"words of truth" <truth760@lycos.com> wrote in message
news:1136677416.355126.319570@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...


http://www.envoymagazine.com/EnvoyEncore/Detail.asp?BlogID=2509



The Myth of Pope Joan

By Patrick Madrid



POPE FICTION # 19:



In the middle ages, there was a "Pope Joan," a woman who hid her gender
and rose through the ranks of the Church, became a cardinal and was
elected pope. No one knew she was a woman until, during a papal
procession through the streets of Rome, she went into labor and gave
birth to a child. She and the baby were killed on the spot by the mob,
enraged at her imposture.

A LOT OF THINGS are said about the alleged "Pope Joan." Depending on
who is telling the story, she was a courageous feminist, a clever
opportunist, a brilliant scholar who couldn't make it as a woman in a
man's world. She is said to have been a wise ruler and an astute
theologian, though, oddly, no decree or theological teaching purporting
to have come from her has made its way down to our day.

In any case, the fact is, there was no Pope Joan. She exists only as
pure legend, but one that makes for a sexy story. And when it comes to
sexy stories, you know Hollywood will try its hand at making a
blockbuster out of this piece of pope fiction.

New Line Cinema (that's right, the same good folks who produced The
Last Temptation of Christ) has reportedly bought the movie rights to
Pope Joan, the best-selling 1996 novel by Donna Woolfolk Cross. Her
book is couched as an historical "novel" - embellishing on a grand
scale the rather sparse details that have clung to the legend of a
brilliant, plain girl who rises to the highest levels in Church
service, culminating in her being elected pope by an unsuspecting
college of cardinals.

The way the book is written and the way it's being promoted support my
concern that it will be seen by most of its historically ignorant
readers, not as a novel, a fiction, but as a real biography of the one
woman who "made it to the top." When the movie comes out, this problem
will certainly grow in proportions.

It's important to remember that even if there had been a female
impostor pope, this would just mean that an invalid election had taken
place, nothing more. Other invalidly elected claimants to the papal
office have come and gone over the centuries, and the fact that a woman
made that list would simply mean that a woman made that list, She would
not have been pope - no one invalidly elected would be. And nothing in
the Church's teachings about the papacy would be injured or disproved.

But in reality, the Pope Joan story is all sizzle and no steak. The
basic outline of the main legend (actually, there have been several
competing legends over the centuries) has it that in the ninth or tenth
century, a plain but extraordinarily brilliant young woman contrived to
enter the university disguised as a man. Her intellect outstripped her
male classmates and she shot to the top rank of students. Talk of her
prowess in law, science, rhetoric, philosophy and languages was
widespread.

In another legend, popularized by several 13th century works such as
the Chronicle of Martin Polonus, the Universal Chronicle of Metz and
Wonders of the City of Rome, she traveled first to Greece with her
boyfriend (why he wanted a girlfriend who disguised herself as a man is
unknown), made a name for herself in the university there, then
traveled to Rome.

Here all the legends converge into the main one that has come down to
our day. Once in Rome, Joan managed to enter religious life (although
no legend is able to say which order she entered), was ordained a
priest and earned a high reputation as a notary in the papal court.

Eventually, she was noticed by the pope and made a cardinal. You can
guess what happens next. She is eventually elected pope, takes the name
John, and sets about skillfully ruling the Church, It's at this point
that the most dramatic scenes of the story unfold.

The legends vary as to how Joan's gender and identity were discovered.
One holds that she was granted a vision by God in which she was shown
two options for her fate, being discovered and disgraced by the world
or roasting in hell for her crime. She chose the former. Another
version says she got pregnant by one of her curial advisors and somehow
was able to maintain the charade until she gave birth to the baby.

At that point her secret was discovered and she was deposed as pope and
sent to a convent to do penance for the rest of her life. According to
this legend, the child she bore went on to became the bishop of Ostia,
about 30 miles southwest of Rome, and when she died, he had her body
buried there. Of course, no evidence exists to support this.

The main detail these legends have in common is that Joan was
discovered because her hanky panky with a cardinal or secretary
resulted in pregnancy, and the childbirth exposed her fraud. The main
legend is the most gory on this point. In it, Pope Joan goes into labor
while riding in her sede gestiatoria - the portable throne in which
popes were carried - as her procession passed the Coliseum on its way
from St, Peter's Basilica to St. John Lateran Cathedral.

The procession halted, the baby was born, and the confused and angry
onlookers killed Pope Joan and her baby on the spot. Most accounts say
she was killed by stoning, another says she died in childbirth as the
mob watching the spectacle shouted and insulted her. Still another says
she was dragged to death behind a horse as punishment. Either way, the
legends agree that the Romans didn't appreciate the unpleasant
discovery.

Several odd historical details gave weight to the legend, including the
fact that among the carved busts of the popes in the cathedral of
Sienna was one of an unnamed woman, No one knows who created it or how
it was put there, but when Pope Clement VIII (reigned 1592 - 1605)
discovered it, he ordered it reworked enough to represent Pope
Zacharias, whose image had not previously been included in the
collection.

This is not surprising, though, given the widespread belief in Europe
in the Pope Joan legend during the 13th through 18th centuries.
Versions abounded, and many credulous folk, Catholics included, were
sincerely convinced that there had indeed been a female pope.

But the facts of history show otherwise. The primary proofs that this
is all just a fable are these: First, the earliest point that we can
trace the legend to is the mid-13th century, but the legend didn't
really gain wide currency until the late 14th century.

No evidence of any kind exists from the ninth century (when Pope Joan
was alleged to have reigned), nor do we see any in the 10th through
12th centuries. None of the annals or acts of the popes that were
written between the ninth and 13th centuries (and none after that,
either) mention her.

Church historian J. P. Kirsch wrote that "Not one contemporaneous
historical source among the papal histories knows anything about her,
also, no mention is made of her until the middle of the 13th century.
Now it is incredible that the appearance of a 'popess,' if it was a
historical fact, would be noticed by none of the numerous historians
from the 10th to the 13th century.

In the history of the popes, there is no place where this legendary
figure will fit in. Between Leo IV and Benedict III, where Martinus
Polonus places her, she cannot be inserted . . ."(Article on Pope Joan,
Catholic Encyclopedia, 1913).

So where did the legend come from? There are two likely possibilities,
The first is that the Roman population became disgusted with the
corrupt influence wielded over Pope Sergius (reigned 904-911) by the
powerful and wealthy Theodora Theophylact, and more specifically by her
young daughter Morozia, a cunning and exceptionally attractive woman.
It appears that Morozia was Sergius' mistress and bore him at least one
son (the future Pope John XI).

The fabulously wealthy and prestigious Theophylact family wielded
immense power in Rome during the 10th century, even, sadly, over
several popes. This is a sorry episode in the history of the Church,
one which displayed a decadence and immorality that even popes, at
times, could fall prey to - a reminder to us all that men, even the
holiest of men, are not invulnerable to temptation and personal
weakness. Despite their sins, Christ's promise that the Church would be
protected from error was not, nor has it ever been, broken.

From the details of Sergius III's pontificate, it seems clear that he

was a vain, violent and sensuous man. It's quite possible that the
disgusted faithful took to mocking him or one of his immediate
successors because he was perceived to have been under the influence of
the Theophylact women.

Some historians trace the legend of a female pope to Morozia, saying
the people called her "Pope Joan" to mock the weak popes she
controlled, in the same way some American first ladies have been called
"president" to mock their perceived weak husbands.

Another possible explanation for the Pope Joan legend lies in the
conduct of the much maligned Pope John VIII (reigned 872-882). He
appears to have had a very weak personality, even perhaps somewhat
effeminate.

Cardinal Baronius, in his Church history Annals, suggests that John
VIII's reputation as effeminate gave rise to the legend. Indeed, it
would seem that over time, the common folk added ever more lurid
embellishments until the vulgar jokes about the hapless (and certainly
male) pope ballooned and metamorphosed into a female "popessa."


Ironically, if there were women popes, there would be a lot less buggering
going on in the church because they wouldn't shield the problem.

So.....
Men cover up problems, but women don't?
What kind of pea-brain are you?
BAM
.
User: "Kevin"

Title: Re: The Myth of Pope Joan 09 Feb 2006 11:12:48 AM
"bam" <mcca5761@bellsouthblahblah.net> wrote in message
news:TAxGf.1309$hL5.1160@bignews6.bellsouth.net...


"Kevin" <not@here.com> wrote in message
news:AeqdnWNvpvq353fenZ2dnUVZ_tWdnZ2d@tbaytel.net...


"words of truth" <truth760@lycos.com> wrote in message
news:1136677416.355126.319570@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...


http://www.envoymagazine.com/EnvoyEncore/Detail.asp?BlogID=2509



The Myth of Pope Joan

By Patrick Madrid



POPE FICTION # 19:



In the middle ages, there was a "Pope Joan," a woman who hid her gender
and rose through the ranks of the Church, became a cardinal and was
elected pope. No one knew she was a woman until, during a papal
procession through the streets of Rome, she went into labor and gave
birth to a child. She and the baby were killed on the spot by the mob,
enraged at her imposture.

A LOT OF THINGS are said about the alleged "Pope Joan." Depending on
who is telling the story, she was a courageous feminist, a clever
opportunist, a brilliant scholar who couldn't make it as a woman in a
man's world. She is said to have been a wise ruler and an astute
theologian, though, oddly, no decree or theological teaching purporting
to have come from her has made its way down to our day.

In any case, the fact is, there was no Pope Joan. She exists only as
pure legend, but one that makes for a sexy story. And when it comes to
sexy stories, you know Hollywood will try its hand at making a
blockbuster out of this piece of pope fiction.

New Line Cinema (that's right, the same good folks who produced The
Last Temptation of Christ) has reportedly bought the movie rights to
Pope Joan, the best-selling 1996 novel by Donna Woolfolk Cross. Her
book is couched as an historical "novel" - embellishing on a grand
scale the rather sparse details that have clung to the legend of a
brilliant, plain girl who rises to the highest levels in Church
service, culminating in her being elected pope by an unsuspecting
college of cardinals.

The way the book is written and the way it's being promoted support my
concern that it will be seen by most of its historically ignorant
readers, not as a novel, a fiction, but as a real biography of the one
woman who "made it to the top." When the movie comes out, this problem
will certainly grow in proportions.

It's important to remember that even if there had been a female
impostor pope, this would just mean that an invalid election had taken
place, nothing more. Other invalidly elected claimants to the papal
office have come and gone over the centuries, and the fact that a woman
made that list would simply mean that a woman made that list, She would
not have been pope - no one invalidly elected would be. And nothing in
the Church's teachings about the papacy would be injured or disproved.

But in reality, the Pope Joan story is all sizzle and no steak. The
basic outline of the main legend (actually, there have been several
competing legends over the centuries) has it that in the ninth or tenth
century, a plain but extraordinarily brilliant young woman contrived to
enter the university disguised as a man. Her intellect outstripped her
male classmates and she shot to the top rank of students. Talk of her
prowess in law, science, rhetoric, philosophy and languages was
widespread.

In another legend, popularized by several 13th century works such as
the Chronicle of Martin Polonus, the Universal Chronicle of Metz and
Wonders of the City of Rome, she traveled first to Greece with her
boyfriend (why he wanted a girlfriend who disguised herself as a man is
unknown), made a name for herself in the university there, then
traveled to Rome.

Here all the legends converge into the main one that has come down to
our day. Once in Rome, Joan managed to enter religious life (although
no legend is able to say which order she entered), was ordained a
priest and earned a high reputation as a notary in the papal court.

Eventually, she was noticed by the pope and made a cardinal. You can
guess what happens next. She is eventually elected pope, takes the name
John, and sets about skillfully ruling the Church, It's at this point
that the most dramatic scenes of the story unfold.

The legends vary as to how Joan's gender and identity were discovered.
One holds that she was granted a vision by God in which she was shown
two options for her fate, being discovered and disgraced by the world
or roasting in hell for her crime. She chose the former. Another
version says she got pregnant by one of her curial advisors and somehow
was able to maintain the charade until she gave birth to the baby.

At that point her secret was discovered and she was deposed as pope and
sent to a convent to do penance for the rest of her life. According to
this legend, the child she bore went on to became the bishop of Ostia,
about 30 miles southwest of Rome, and when she died, he had her body
buried there. Of course, no evidence exists to support this.

The main detail these legends have in common is that Joan was
discovered because her hanky panky with a cardinal or secretary
resulted in pregnancy, and the childbirth exposed her fraud. The main
legend is the most gory on this point. In it, Pope Joan goes into labor
while riding in her sede gestiatoria - the portable throne in which
popes were carried - as her procession passed the Coliseum on its way
from St, Peter's Basilica to St. John Lateran Cathedral.

The procession halted, the baby was born, and the confused and angry
onlookers killed Pope Joan and her baby on the spot. Most accounts say
she was killed by stoning, another says she died in childbirth as the
mob watching the spectacle shouted and insulted her. Still another says
she was dragged to death behind a horse as punishment. Either way, the
legends agree that the Romans didn't appreciate the unpleasant
discovery.

Several odd historical details gave weight to the legend, including the
fact that among the carved busts of the popes in the cathedral of
Sienna was one of an unnamed woman, No one knows who created it or how
it was put there, but when Pope Clement VIII (reigned 1592 - 1605)
discovered it, he ordered it reworked enough to represent Pope
Zacharias, whose image had not previously been included in the
collection.

This is not surprising, though, given the widespread belief in Europe
in the Pope Joan legend during the 13th through 18th centuries.
Versions abounded, and many credulous folk, Catholics included, were
sincerely convinced that there had indeed been a female pope.

But the facts of history show otherwise. The primary proofs that this
is all just a fable are these: First, the earliest point that we can
trace the legend to is the mid-13th century, but the legend didn't
really gain wide currency until the late 14th century.

No evidence of any kind exists from the ninth century (when Pope Joan
was alleged to have reigned), nor do we see any in the 10th through
12th centuries. None of the annals or acts of the popes that were
written between the ninth and 13th centuries (and none after that,
either) mention her.

Church historian J. P. Kirsch wrote that "Not one contemporaneous
historical source among the papal histories knows anything about her,
also, no mention is made of her until the middle of the 13th century.
Now it is incredible that the appearance of a 'popess,' if it was a
historical fact, would be noticed by none of the numerous historians
from the 10th to the 13th century.

In the history of the popes, there is no place where this legendary
figure will fit in. Between Leo IV and Benedict III, where Martinus
Polonus places her, she cannot be inserted . . ."(Article on Pope Joan,
Catholic Encyclopedia, 1913).

So where did the legend come from? There are two likely possibilities,
The first is that the Roman population became disgusted with the
corrupt influence wielded over Pope Sergius (reigned 904-911) by the
powerful and wealthy Theodora Theophylact, and more specifically by her
young daughter Morozia, a cunning and exceptionally attractive woman.
It appears that Morozia was Sergius' mistress and bore him at least one
son (the future Pope John XI).

The fabulously wealthy and prestigious Theophylact family wielded
immense power in Rome during the 10th century, even, sadly, over
several popes. This is a sorry episode in the history of the Church,
one which displayed a decadence and immorality that even popes, at
times, could fall prey to - a reminder to us all that men, even the
holiest of men, are not invulnerable to temptation and personal
weakness. Despite their sins, Christ's promise that the Church would be
protected from error was not, nor has it ever been, broken.

From the details of Sergius III's pontificate, it seems clear that he

was a vain, violent and sensuous man. It's quite possible that the
disgusted faithful took to mocking him or one of his immediate
successors because he was perceived to have been under the influence of
the Theophylact women.

Some historians trace the legend of a female pope to Morozia, saying
the people called her "Pope Joan" to mock the weak popes she
controlled, in the same way some American first ladies have been called
"president" to mock their perceived weak husbands.

Another possible explanation for the Pope Joan legend lies in the
conduct of the much maligned Pope John VIII (reigned 872-882). He
appears to have had a very weak personality, even perhaps somewhat
effeminate.

Cardinal Baronius, in his Church history Annals, suggests that John
VIII's reputation as effeminate gave rise to the legend. Indeed, it
would seem that over time, the common folk added ever more lurid
embellishments until the vulgar jokes about the hapless (and certainly
male) pope ballooned and metamorphosed into a female "popessa."


Ironically, if there were women popes, there would be a lot less
buggering going on in the church because they wouldn't shield the
problem.


So.....

Men cover up problems, but women don't?

Men bugger, women don't


What kind of pea-brain are you?

how many kinds are there?


BAM

.
User: "bam"

Title: Re: The Myth of Pope Joan 09 Feb 2006 12:37:22 PM
"Kevin" <not@here.com> wrote in message
news:D-6dnZHns4qS5XbeRVn-vg@tbaytel.net...


"bam" <mcca5761@bellsouthblahblah.net> wrote in message
news:TAxGf.1309$hL5.1160@bignews6.bellsouth.net...


"Kevin" <not@here.com> wrote in message
news:AeqdnWNvpvq353fenZ2dnUVZ_tWdnZ2d@tbaytel.net...


"words of truth" <truth760@lycos.com> wrote in message
news:1136677416.355126.319570@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...


http://www.envoymagazine.com/EnvoyEncore/Detail.asp?BlogID=2509



The Myth of Pope Joan

By Patrick Madrid



POPE FICTION # 19:



In the middle ages, there was a "Pope Joan," a woman who hid her gender
and rose through the ranks of the Church, became a cardinal and was
elected pope. No one knew she was a woman until, during a papal
procession through the streets of Rome, she went into labor and gave
birth to a child. She and the baby were killed on the spot by the mob,
enraged at her imposture.

A LOT OF THINGS are said about the alleged "Pope Joan." Depending on
who is telling the story, she was a courageous feminist, a clever
opportunist, a brilliant scholar who couldn't make it as a woman in a
man's world. She is said to have been a wise ruler and an astute
theologian, though, oddly, no decree or theological teaching purporting
to have come from her has made its way down to our day.

In any case, the fact is, there was no Pope Joan. She exists only as
pure legend, but one that makes for a sexy story. And when it comes to
sexy stories, you know Hollywood will try its hand at making a
blockbuster out of this piece of pope fiction.

New Line Cinema (that's right, the same good folks who produced The
Last Temptation of Christ) has reportedly bought the movie rights to
Pope Joan, the best-selling 1996 novel by Donna Woolfolk Cross. Her
book is couched as an historical "novel" - embellishing on a grand
scale the rather sparse details that have clung to the legend of a
brilliant, plain girl who rises to the highest levels in Church
service, culminating in her being elected pope by an unsuspecting
college of cardinals.

The way the book is written and the way it's being promoted support my
concern that it will be seen by most of its historically ignorant
readers, not as a novel, a fiction, but as a real biography of the one
woman who "made it to the top." When the movie comes out, this problem
will certainly grow in proportions.

It's important to remember that even if there had been a female
impostor pope, this would just mean that an invalid election had taken
place, nothing more. Other invalidly elected claimants to the papal
office have come and gone over the centuries, and the fact that a woman
made that list would simply mean that a woman made that list, She would
not have been pope - no one invalidly elected would be. And nothing in
the Church's teachings about the papacy would be injured or disproved.

But in reality, the Pope Joan story is all sizzle and no steak. The
basic outline of the main legend (actually, there have been several
competing legends over the centuries) has it that in the ninth or tenth
century, a plain but extraordinarily brilliant young woman contrived to
enter the university disguised as a man. Her intellect outstripped her
male classmates and she shot to the top rank of students. Talk of her
prowess in law, science, rhetoric, philosophy and languages was
widespread.

In another legend, popularized by several 13th century works such as
the Chronicle of Martin Polonus, the Universal Chronicle of Metz and
Wonders of the City of Rome, she traveled first to Greece with her
boyfriend (why he wanted a girlfriend who disguised herself as a man is
unknown), made a name for herself in the university there, then
traveled to Rome.

Here all the legends converge into the main one that has come down to
our day. Once in Rome, Joan managed to enter religious life (although
no legend is able to say which order she entered), was ordained a
priest and earned a high reputation as a notary in the papal court.

Eventually, she was noticed by the pope and made a cardinal. You can
guess what happens next. She is eventually elected pope, takes the name
John, and sets about skillfully ruling the Church, It's at this point
that the most dramatic scenes of the story unfold.

The legends vary as to how Joan's gender and identity were discovered.
One holds that she was granted a vision by God in which she was shown
two options for her fate, being discovered and disgraced by the world
or roasting in hell for her crime. She chose the former. Another
version says she got pregnant by one of her curial advisors and somehow
was able to maintain the charade until she gave birth to the baby.

At that point her secret was discovered and she was deposed as pope and
sent to a convent to do penance for the rest of her life. According to
this legend, the child she bore went on to became the bishop of Ostia,
about 30 miles southwest of Rome, and when she died, he had her body
buried there. Of course, no evidence exists to support this.

The main detail these legends have in common is that Joan was
discovered because her hanky panky with a cardinal or secretary
resulted in pregnancy, and the childbirth exposed her fraud. The main
legend is the most gory on this point. In it, Pope Joan goes into labor
while riding in her sede gestiatoria - the portable throne in which
popes were carried - as her procession passed the Coliseum on its way
from St, Peter's Basilica to St. John Lateran Cathedral.

The procession halted, the baby was born, and the confused and angry
onlookers killed Pope Joan and her baby on the spot. Most accounts say
she was killed by stoning, another says she died in childbirth as the
mob watching the spectacle shouted and insulted her. Still another says
she was dragged to death behind a horse as punishment. Either way, the
legends agree that the Romans didn't appreciate the unpleasant
discovery.

Several odd historical details gave weight to the legend, including the
fact that among the carved busts of the popes in the cathedral of
Sienna was one of an unnamed woman, No one knows who created it or how
it was put there, but when Pope Clement VIII (reigned 1592 - 1605)
discovered it, he ordered it reworked enough to represent Pope
Zacharias, whose image had not previously been included in the
collection.

This is not surprising, though, given the widespread belief in Europe
in the Pope Joan legend during the 13th through 18th centuries.
Versions abounded, and many credulous folk, Catholics included, were
sincerely convinced that there had indeed been a female pope.

But the facts of history show otherwise. The primary proofs that this
is all just a fable are these: First, the earliest point that we can
trace the legend to is the mid-13th century, but the legend didn't
really gain wide currency until the late 14th century.

No evidence of any kind exists from the ninth century (when Pope Joan
was alleged to have reigned), nor do we see any in the 10th through
12th centuries. None of the annals or acts of the popes that were
written between the ninth and 13th centuries (and none after that,
either) mention her.

Church historian J. P. Kirsch wrote that "Not one contemporaneous
historical source among the papal histories knows anything about her,
also, no mention is made of her until the middle of the 13th century.
Now it is incredible that the appearance of a 'popess,' if it was a
historical fact, would be noticed by none of the numerous historians
from the 10th to the 13th century.

In the history of the popes, there is no place where this legendary
figure will fit in. Between Leo IV and Benedict III, where Martinus
Polonus places her, she cannot be inserted . . ."(Article on Pope Joan,
Catholic Encyclopedia, 1913).

So where did the legend come from? There are two likely possibilities,
The first is that the Roman population became disgusted with the
corrupt influence wielded over Pope Sergius (reigned 904-911) by the
powerful and wealthy Theodora Theophylact, and more specifically by her
young daughter Morozia, a cunning and exceptionally attractive woman.
It appears that Morozia was Sergius' mistress and bore him at least one
son (the future Pope John XI).

The fabulously wealthy and prestigious Theophylact family wielded
immense power in Rome during the 10th century, even, sadly, over
several popes. This is a sorry episode in the history of the Church,
one which displayed a decadence and immorality that even popes, at
times, could fall prey to - a reminder to us all that men, even the
holiest of men, are not invulnerable to temptation and personal
weakness. Despite their sins, Christ's promise that the Church would be
protected from error was not, nor has it ever been, broken.

From the details of Sergius III's pontificate, it seems clear that he

was a vain, violent and sensuous man. It's quite possible that the
disgusted faithful took to mocking him or one of his immediate
successors because he was perceived to have been under the influence of
the Theophylact women.

Some historians trace the legend of a female pope to Morozia, saying
the people called her "Pope Joan" to mock the weak popes she
controlled, in the same way some American first ladies have been called
"president" to mock their perceived weak husbands.

Another possible explanation for the Pope Joan legend lies in the
conduct of the much maligned Pope John VIII (reigned 872-882). He
appears to have had a very weak personality, even perhaps somewhat
effeminate.

Cardinal Baronius, in his Church history Annals, suggests that John
VIII's reputation as effeminate gave rise to the legend. Indeed, it
would seem that over time, the common folk added ever more lurid
embellishments until the vulgar jokes about the hapless (and certainly
male) pope ballooned and metamorphosed into a female "popessa."


Ironically, if there were women popes, there would be a lot less
buggering going on in the church because they wouldn't shield the
problem.


So.....

Men cover up problems, but women don't?


Men bugger, women don't

It ain't about buggery dum-dum; it's about sexual exploitation and power.

What kind of pea-brain are you?


how many kinds are there?

Two; ones who know it and ones who don't.
BAM
.

User: "Madra Dubh"

Title: Re: The Myth of Pope Joan 09 Feb 2006 11:27:00 AM
"Kevin" <not@here.com> wrote in message news:D-6dnZHns4qS5XbeRVn->
<Snip>

Men bugger, women don't

Roger that!
.
User: "•R.L.Measures•"

Title: Re: The Myth of Pope Joan 09 Feb 2006 06:44:32 PM
In article <EXKGf.364411$qk4.361140@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net>,
"Madra Dubh" <ccaine@worldnet.att.net> wrote:

"Kevin" <not@here.com> wrote in message news:D-6dnZHns4qS5XbeRVn->
<Snip>

Men bugger, women don't


Roger that!

*** However, during coitus, some women are known to be able to accomplish
the same stimulation with digital manipulation.
--
€ R.L.Measures, 805-386-3734, www.somis.org
remove _ from e-mail adr
.






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