The Myth of Religious anti-Scientism



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Topic: Religions > Atheism
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Date: 25 Jan 2005 03:06:58 PM
Object: The Myth of Religious anti-Scientism
The History and the Pseudo-History of Science
by Gene Callahan
Recently, after looking in an introductory biology textbook for a
description of meiosis, I browsed through its introduction. There, I
came upon the following passage:
"For 2,000 years prior to [the Renaissance], scholars had accepted the
writings of Aristotle and other ancient philosophers, as well as
certain Church doctrines, to be unfaltering truths about the natural
world. It took some of the greatest minds in history, including
Copernicus, Galileo, and Newton, to shake this dominion of dogma and to
replace it with theories and laws based on direct observation of
nature. Nicholaus Copernicus, and later Galileo, made calculations that
the Earth and other planets circle the sun..." (Wessells and Hopson,
1988, p. 11).
Many science textbooks contain similar one-or-two-paragraph histories
of how modern science miraculously emerged from the dark swamp of
ignorance we call the Middle Ages. The main problem with such stories
is that they are almost entirely false. Let's compare the picture
painted above with the current understanding of scholars studying the
history of the Scientific Revolution.
The first assertion, quite a commonplace one, is that from the time of
the ancient Greeks until the Renaissance, the European mind was in the
thrall of a dogmatic worldview, based only on authority, and made no
progress toward a better understanding of the natural world. It is
certainly true that scientific ideas developed much less rapidly during
most of the period in question than they have in recent centuries.
(Even admitting that much, the figure of "2000 years" in the quote
above still seems to overshoot the mark, since it includes the time of
pioneers like Archimedes and Ptolemy within its scope.) During the
"Dark Ages," in the centuries immediately after the fall of Rome,
Western Europe did not challenge the received wisdom in science
primarily because it did not do much science at all. People were
struggling to survive, and intellectual life fell into abeyance. In
fact, contrary to the view expressed in the biology textbook, for most
of that period, Aristotle's writings were lost to the West, so that
they could hardly have been accepted as "unfaltering truths"!
But as Western European intellectual life revived, scholars began
reconsidering the ideas of the ancients. As Bede's Library has it:
"When Aristotle was rediscovered in the West, it was soon established
that when there were clear conflicts between his philosophy and the
Christian faith, the latter should always prevail. This was not much of
a handicap, as on the subject of physical science, faith did not really
have a lot to say. The bible could be read non-literally where
necessary, as Augustine himself allowed, so William of Conches could
even call the creation account in Genesis figurative. Nearly everyone
agreed that the earth was a sphere even though the Bible implied a flat
earth. But where Aristotle and faith were in clear conflict, such as
his claim that the world was uncreated and eternal, it weakened his
authority and allowed his ideas to be challenged. This opened the door
to the idea of a developing body of knowledge, which is often assumed
to have been absent from the medieval outlook."
For example, in the fourteenth century, a group of philosophers, most
of them at the University of Paris, developed the impetus theory of
motion. It was both a break with one of the central ideas of
Aristotle's physics, and a step toward the modern theory of inertia.
They also disputed the prevailing belief that the movement of each
planet was guided by a conscious being:
"Although the theory of celestial intelligences became a central
doctrine in Hellenic, Arabic and scholastic cosmology, it was attacked
during the fourteenth century by several scholars, and most incisively
in the work of Jean Buridan (died c. 1358) and his pupil Nicole Oresme
(1320-1382)."
Nevertheless, Aristotelian physics did remain the primary means of
explaining most physical phenomena well into the Scientific Revolution.
There is a very good reason for that, which brings us to our next
point. The textbook cited above claims that scientists such as
Copernicus, Galileo, and Newton were able "to shake this dominion of
[Aristotelian] dogma" with "theories and laws based on direct
observation of nature." Once again, the authors are repeating a
commonplace view, one that appears in a multitude of popular accounts
of the rise of science. The scholastic philosophers who dominated the
medieval universities, enraptured with their elaborate metaphysical
speculations, ignored the plain facts of the physical world, which were
accessible to them if they had simply looked around. The great figures
of the Scientific Revolution relied instead on observation, which led
them to develop the theories that replaced Aristotelian physics.
But this story, inspiring though it is, runs afoul of the fact that
Aristotle was a masterful observer, one whose physical theories are
closely based on the world as it appears to the unaided senses.
Knowledge, he held, begins with our observations of the world around
us. Similarly, Ptolemy constructed his Earth-centered model of the
cosmos to accurately reflect the best astronomical observations
available to him.
In fact, it was the pioneers of the Scientific Revolution who had to
overcome the commonsense view of the world revealed by direct
observation in order for their theories to gain acceptance. The most
obvious discrepancy between the reports of our senses and the new ideas
is that the Earth seems quite plainly to be standing still, while the
heavenly bodies clearly appear to be rotating around it. Renaissance
man had no experience of, for instance, traveling in an airplane at 600
miles per hour yet feeling as though he wasn't moving. When he moved
rapidly, such as on horseback, he could feel that he was moving. And to
account for the apparent motions of the heavenly bodies, the Earth
would have to rotate at what, for him, was a truly astonishing rate.
(At the equator, the actual speed is over 1000 miles per hour.)
What's more, if the Earth was spinning around that rapidly, it seemed
that we ought to be able to detect that motion in many ways. For
example, if you dropped a rock from a tower, it should fall some
distance from the tower's base, in the direction opposite to the
Earth's rotation, since the ground would have moved under it as it was
falling. The Earth's atmosphere would also be left behind, so that
there would be a continuous wind sweeping from east to west at hundreds
of miles per hour.
On a more technical level, a major reason that Copernicus's
heliocentric (sun-centered) theory was rejected by many leading
astronomers of the sixteenth century was the absence of any observed
parallax in the "fixed stars." Parallax is the astronomical term for
the fact that objects will appear to change their location when
observed from different places. If the Earth revolves around the sun,
the stars should appear to move slightly during the course of the year,
but astronomers observed no such phenomena. (The explanation for that
failure is that the stars are much farther away from the Earth than
anyone at that time suspected, so that the parallax was too minute for
their instruments to detect.)
Copernicus handled the difficulty that presented for his theory with an
ad hoc hypothesis, declaring that the sphere of the stars was ten times
farther from the Earth than had previously been believed. Not only was
the hypothesis ad hoc, it was also, as a Popperian would put it,
unfalsifiable: there were no instruments available at the time to
measure a parallax as small as the new distance implied. And if a
geocentric astronomer had developed a device capable of measuring such
a slight change in observed position, Copernicus could (and undoubtedly
would) have simply moved the stellar sphere ten times farther away
still.
Copernicus also "was puzzled by the variations he had observed in the
brightness of the planet Mars. [But] Copernicus's own system was so
far from answering to the phenomena in the case of Mars that Galileo in
his main work on this subject praises him for clinging to his new
theory though it contradicted observation..." (Butterfield, 1949, p.
23).
What's more, as we noted above, Copernicanism violated many of the
principles of the Aristotelian physics of his time. Copernicus could
not explain why objects didn't fly off the rotating Earth, why the
Earth didn't spin itself apart, why dropped objects fell straight to
the ground, or what kept celestial objects going in their orbits if not
the motion transmitted from sphere to sphere in the
Ptolemaic/Aristotelian model. Aristotelian physics explained all of
those phenomena in ways that made sense of the observational experience
then available. As Butterfield writes:
"In fact, you had to throw over the very frameboard of existing
science, and it was here that Copernicus clearly failed to provide an
alternative. He provided a neater geometry of the heavens, but it was
one which made nonsense of the reasons and explanations that had
previously been given to account for the movements in the sky" (1949,
p. 27).
Of course, Aristotelian physics had difficulties of its own, but
Copernicanism introduced a whole host of new problems, while only
eliminating a few: "Most of the essential elements by which we know the
Copernican Revolution - easy and accurate computations of planetary
position, the abolition of epicycles and eccentrics, the dissolution of
the spheres, the sun a star, the infinite expansion of the universe -
these and many others are not to be found anywhere in Copernicus's
work" (Kuhn, 1957, p. 135).
Nor does the frequent assertion that Copernicus's theory was
significantly simpler than Ptolemy's stand up to scrutiny. As Lakatos
notes:
"The superior simplicity of the Copernican theory was just as much of a
myth as its superior accuracy. The myth of superior simplicity was
dispelled by the careful and professional work of modern historians.
They reminded us that while Copernican theory solves certain problems
in a simpler way than does the Ptolemaic one, the price of the
simplification is unexpected complications in the solution of other
problems. The Copernican system is certainly simpler since it dispenses
with equants and some eccentrics; but each equant and eccentric removed
has to be replaced by new epicycles and epicyclets.... he also has to
put the centre of the universe not at the Sun, as he originally
intended, but at an empty point fairly near to it."
The suggestion that Galileo had all of the evidence on his side in his
battle against the Aristotelians and the Church is also erroneous. In
his book Two Systems one of the major pieces of evidence he advanced
for the Copernican model was the existence of tides. Galileo explained
them as arising from the motion of the Earth rocking the oceans back
and forth, much as a swinging a bucket containing water will slosh the
water up one side of the bucket and then the other.
Of course, this is quite different from our current understanding of
tides as arising from the gravitational influence of the moon. But what
is really surprising about Galileo's hypothesis, given his common
portrayal as a staunch empiricist, is that he had not even investigated
the actual period of the tides before forwarding this argument! His
theory required a 24-hour tidal cycle, while in fact it is 12 hours.
When he learned that sailors in the Mediterranean reported high and low
tides occurring every 12 hours, he explained this glaring discrepancy
as resulting from local variations in the ocean bottom. (See Shea and
Artigas, 2003.)
Galileo also failed to be a "good empiricist" when he ignored his ally
Kepler's theory that the planets orbit the sun in elliptical, rather
than circular, paths. Kepler's model fit the data much better than
Galileo's, yet Kepler's letters to Galileo suggesting elliptical orbits
never even solicited a response.
When one looks at the real history of the Scientific Revolution, it
becomes apparent that observation was rarely the prime impetus for the
development of the most important new theories. Instead, leading
scientists drew their main inspiration from their beliefs about the
kind of world they envisioned that God would create. Copernicus and
Kepler were Neo-Platonists, and it seemed to them that the Sun, the
most brilliant light in our world, was a more fitting center for God's
creation than the Earth. Copernicus was also dissatisfied with the
Ptolemaic model of the heavens because it centered the orbits of
heavenly bodies not on the Earth, the supposed center of the cosmos,
but on a point called the equant, which was an empty spot in space near
to the Earth. Newton was a deeply religious man, who believed that
God's work would naturally exhibit the sort of mathematical perfection
he hoped to reflect in his own theories.
I came across another very common idea about the Scientific Revolution
in browsing a recent issue of National Geographic. Speculating on the
impact of the possible future discovery of other, earth-like planets,
the article's author writes: "It's hard to overstate the excitement
scientists feel at the prospect of seeing that faint blue dot. If it
told of a watery, temperate place, humanity would face a 21st-century
version of Copernicus's realization nearly 500 years ago that the Earth
is not the center of the solar system. The discovery would show 'that
were not in a special place, that we might be part of a continuum of
life in the cosmos, and that life might be very common,' says Michael
Meyer, an astronomer at the University of Arizona."
As a corollary of the above, it's often suggested that many people in
the sixteenth and seventeenth centuries rejected the idea of a
sun-centered solar system because it displaced the Earth from its
unique location at the center of the universe, and therefore seemed to
make humanity less important in the scheme of creation. However,
Professor John Milton, with whom I am studying the history of science
at King's College in London, notes that historians have discovered no
evidence of any of the contemporaries of Copernicus or Galileo voicing
such a concern. And that is not too surprising, when we consider that,
in the prevailing cosmology of the time, the center of the cosmos was
not a very prestigious place to be. Aristotle regarded it as the region
to which gross and corrupt matter gravitated, distinctly inferior to
the unchanging perfection exhibited by the heavens. And in Dante's
Divine Comedy, the occupant of the Earth's center, and therefore at the
precise center of the universe, was none other than Satan himself. To
place the Earth in the heavens was to grant it a promotion.
None of what I have presented above is meant to claim that the
conservatism typical of entrenched interests, for instance, of the
Aristotelians who dominated the universities of the 16th and 17th
centuries, did not present an extra-scientific hurdle that new
conceptions of the physical world had to surmount, or that the Catholic
Church never resisted the progress of science for dogmatic reasons.
But the common, popular version of the history of science, in which
unselfish, heroic scientists do battle with the backward forces of
religion, is a fairy tale, spun mostly by Voltaire and his followers,
in order to discredit the religious belief that they despised. The real
history of the Scientific Revolution is much more complex and nuanced
than the simplistic morality play they made it out to be. If we are
truly interested in understanding the roles that religion and science
have played in creating our civilization, we should put aside the myth
and attend to the reality.
References
Appenzeller, T. (2004) "Search for Other Earths," National Geographic,
Dec. 2004, pp. 68-95.
Butterfield, H. (1949) The Origins of Modern Science: 1300-1800,
London: G. Bell and Sons Ltd.
Kuhn, T.S. (1957) The Copernican Revolution: Planetary Astronomy in the
Development of Western Thought, Cambridge, Massachusetts and London:
Harvard University Press.
Lakatos, I. (1978) The Methodology of Scientific Research Programmes:
Philosophical Papers Volume 1, Cambridge, England: Cambridge University
Press.
Shea, W.R. and M. Artigas (2003) Galileo in Rome: The Rise and Fall of
a Troublesome Genius, Oxford, England: Oxford University Press.
Wessells, N.K and J.L. Hopson (1988) Biology, New York: Random House.
---------
BM
.

User: "Kvebekski"

Title: Re: The Myth of Religious anti-Scientism 26 Jan 2005 02:46:55 AM
<cherniymonakh@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1106665618.745317.116960@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...

The History and the Pseudo-History of Science
by Gene Callahan

Recently, after looking in an introductory biology textbook for a
description of meiosis, I browsed through its introduction. There, I
came upon the following passage:

"For 2,000 years prior to [the Renaissance], scholars had accepted the
writings of Aristotle and other ancient philosophers, as well as
certain Church doctrines, to be unfaltering truths about the natural
world. It took some of the greatest minds in history, including
Copernicus, Galileo, and Newton, to shake this dominion of dogma and to
replace it with theories and laws based on direct observation of
nature. Nicholaus Copernicus, and later Galileo, made calculations that
the Earth and other planets circle the sun..." (Wessells and Hopson,
1988, p. 11).

Many science textbooks contain similar one-or-two-paragraph histories
of how modern science miraculously emerged from the dark swamp of
ignorance we call the Middle Ages. The main problem with such stories
is that they are almost entirely false. Let's compare the picture
painted above with the current understanding of scholars studying the
history of the Scientific Revolution.

The first assertion, quite a commonplace one, is that from the time of
the ancient Greeks until the Renaissance, the European mind was in the
thrall of a dogmatic worldview, based only on authority, and made no
progress toward a better understanding of the natural world. It is
certainly true that scientific ideas developed much less rapidly during
most of the period in question than they have in recent centuries.
(Even admitting that much, the figure of "2000 years" in the quote
above still seems to overshoot the mark, since it includes the time of
pioneers like Archimedes and Ptolemy within its scope.) During the
"Dark Ages," in the centuries immediately after the fall of Rome,
Western Europe did not challenge the received wisdom in science
primarily because it did not do much science at all. People were
struggling to survive, and intellectual life fell into abeyance. In
fact, contrary to the view expressed in the biology textbook, for most
of that period, Aristotle's writings were lost to the West, so that
they could hardly have been accepted as "unfaltering truths"!

But as Western European intellectual life revived, scholars began
reconsidering the ideas of the ancients. As Bede's Library has it:

"When Aristotle was rediscovered in the West, it was soon established
that when there were clear conflicts between his philosophy and the
Christian faith, the latter should always prevail. This was not much of
a handicap, as on the subject of physical science, faith did not really
have a lot to say. The bible could be read non-literally where
necessary, as Augustine himself allowed, so William of Conches could
even call the creation account in Genesis figurative. Nearly everyone
agreed that the earth was a sphere even though the Bible implied a flat
earth. But where Aristotle and faith were in clear conflict, such as
his claim that the world was uncreated and eternal, it weakened his
authority and allowed his ideas to be challenged. This opened the door
to the idea of a developing body of knowledge, which is often assumed
to have been absent from the medieval outlook."

For example, in the fourteenth century, a group of philosophers, most
of them at the University of Paris, developed the impetus theory of
motion. It was both a break with one of the central ideas of
Aristotle's physics, and a step toward the modern theory of inertia.
They also disputed the prevailing belief that the movement of each
planet was guided by a conscious being:

"Although the theory of celestial intelligences became a central
doctrine in Hellenic, Arabic and scholastic cosmology, it was attacked
during the fourteenth century by several scholars, and most incisively
in the work of Jean Buridan (died c. 1358) and his pupil Nicole Oresme
(1320-1382)."

Nevertheless, Aristotelian physics did remain the primary means of
explaining most physical phenomena well into the Scientific Revolution.
There is a very good reason for that, which brings us to our next
point. The textbook cited above claims that scientists such as
Copernicus, Galileo, and Newton were able "to shake this dominion of
[Aristotelian] dogma" with "theories and laws based on direct
observation of nature." Once again, the authors are repeating a
commonplace view, one that appears in a multitude of popular accounts
of the rise of science. The scholastic philosophers who dominated the
medieval universities, enraptured with their elaborate metaphysical
speculations, ignored the plain facts of the physical world, which were
accessible to them if they had simply looked around. The great figures
of the Scientific Revolution relied instead on observation, which led
them to develop the theories that replaced Aristotelian physics.

But this story, inspiring though it is, runs afoul of the fact that
Aristotle was a masterful observer, one whose physical theories are
closely based on the world as it appears to the unaided senses.
Knowledge, he held, begins with our observations of the world around
us. Similarly, Ptolemy constructed his Earth-centered model of the
cosmos to accurately reflect the best astronomical observations
available to him.

In fact, it was the pioneers of the Scientific Revolution who had to
overcome the commonsense view of the world revealed by direct
observation in order for their theories to gain acceptance. The most
obvious discrepancy between the reports of our senses and the new ideas
is that the Earth seems quite plainly to be standing still, while the
heavenly bodies clearly appear to be rotating around it. Renaissance
man had no experience of, for instance, traveling in an airplane at 600
miles per hour yet feeling as though he wasn't moving. When he moved
rapidly, such as on horseback, he could feel that he was moving. And to
account for the apparent motions of the heavenly bodies, the Earth
would have to rotate at what, for him, was a truly astonishing rate.
(At the equator, the actual speed is over 1000 miles per hour.)

What's more, if the Earth was spinning around that rapidly, it seemed
that we ought to be able to detect that motion in many ways. For
example, if you dropped a rock from a tower, it should fall some
distance from the tower's base, in the direction opposite to the
Earth's rotation, since the ground would have moved under it as it was
falling. The Earth's atmosphere would also be left behind, so that
there would be a continuous wind sweeping from east to west at hundreds
of miles per hour.

On a more technical level, a major reason that Copernicus's
heliocentric (sun-centered) theory was rejected by many leading
astronomers of the sixteenth century was the absence of any observed
parallax in the "fixed stars." Parallax is the astronomical term for
the fact that objects will appear to change their location when
observed from different places. If the Earth revolves around the sun,
the stars should appear to move slightly during the course of the year,
but astronomers observed no such phenomena. (The explanation for that
failure is that the stars are much farther away from the Earth than
anyone at that time suspected, so that the parallax was too minute for
their instruments to detect.)

Copernicus handled the difficulty that presented for his theory with an
ad hoc hypothesis, declaring that the sphere of the stars was ten times
farther from the Earth than had previously been believed. Not only was
the hypothesis ad hoc, it was also, as a Popperian would put it,
unfalsifiable: there were no instruments available at the time to
measure a parallax as small as the new distance implied. And if a
geocentric astronomer had developed a device capable of measuring such
a slight change in observed position, Copernicus could (and undoubtedly
would) have simply moved the stellar sphere ten times farther away
still.

Copernicus also "was puzzled by the variations he had observed in the
brightness of the planet Mars. [But] Copernicus's own system was so
far from answering to the phenomena in the case of Mars that Galileo in
his main work on this subject praises him for clinging to his new
theory though it contradicted observation..." (Butterfield, 1949, p.
23).

What's more, as we noted above, Copernicanism violated many of the
principles of the Aristotelian physics of his time. Copernicus could
not explain why objects didn't fly off the rotating Earth, why the
Earth didn't spin itself apart, why dropped objects fell straight to
the ground, or what kept celestial objects going in their orbits if not
the motion transmitted from sphere to sphere in the
Ptolemaic/Aristotelian model. Aristotelian physics explained all of
those phenomena in ways that made sense of the observational experience
then available. As Butterfield writes:

"In fact, you had to throw over the very frameboard of existing
science, and it was here that Copernicus clearly failed to provide an
alternative. He provided a neater geometry of the heavens, but it was
one which made nonsense of the reasons and explanations that had
previously been given to account for the movements in the sky" (1949,
p. 27).

Of course, Aristotelian physics had difficulties of its own, but
Copernicanism introduced a whole host of new problems, while only
eliminating a few: "Most of the essential elements by which we know the
Copernican Revolution - easy and accurate computations of planetary
position, the abolition of epicycles and eccentrics, the dissolution of
the spheres, the sun a star, the infinite expansion of the universe -
these and many others are not to be found anywhere in Copernicus's
work" (Kuhn, 1957, p. 135).

Nor does the frequent assertion that Copernicus's theory was
significantly simpler than Ptolemy's stand up to scrutiny. As Lakatos
notes:

"The superior simplicity of the Copernican theory was just as much of a
myth as its superior accuracy. The myth of superior simplicity was
dispelled by the careful and professional work of modern historians.
They reminded us that while Copernican theory solves certain problems
in a simpler way than does the Ptolemaic one, the price of the
simplification is unexpected complications in the solution of other
problems. The Copernican system is certainly simpler since it dispenses
with equants and some eccentrics; but each equant and eccentric removed
has to be replaced by new epicycles and epicyclets.... he also has to
put the centre of the universe not at the Sun, as he originally
intended, but at an empty point fairly near to it."

The suggestion that Galileo had all of the evidence on his side in his
battle against the Aristotelians and the Church is also erroneous. In
his book Two Systems one of the major pieces of evidence he advanced
for the Copernican model was the existence of tides. Galileo explained
them as arising from the motion of the Earth rocking the oceans back
and forth, much as a swinging a bucket containing water will slosh the
water up one side of the bucket and then the other.

Of course, this is quite different from our current understanding of
tides as arising from the gravitational influence of the moon. But what
is really surprising about Galileo's hypothesis, given his common
portrayal as a staunch empiricist, is that he had not even investigated
the actual period of the tides before forwarding this argument! His
theory required a 24-hour tidal cycle, while in fact it is 12 hours.
When he learned that sailors in the Mediterranean reported high and low
tides occurring every 12 hours, he explained this glaring discrepancy
as resulting from local variations in the ocean bottom. (See Shea and
Artigas, 2003.)

Galileo also failed to be a "good empiricist" when he ignored his ally
Kepler's theory that the planets orbit the sun in elliptical, rather
than circular, paths. Kepler's model fit the data much better than
Galileo's, yet Kepler's letters to Galileo suggesting elliptical orbits
never even solicited a response.

When one looks at the real history of the Scientific Revolution, it
becomes apparent that observation was rarely the prime impetus for the
development of the most important new theories. Instead, leading
scientists drew their main inspiration from their beliefs about the
kind of world they envisioned that God would create. Copernicus and
Kepler were Neo-Platonists, and it seemed to them that the Sun, the
most brilliant light in our world, was a more fitting center for God's
creation than the Earth. Copernicus was also dissatisfied with the
Ptolemaic model of the heavens because it centered the orbits of
heavenly bodies not on the Earth, the supposed center of the cosmos,
but on a point called the equant, which was an empty spot in space near
to the Earth. Newton was a deeply religious man, who believed that
God's work would naturally exhibit the sort of mathematical perfection
he hoped to reflect in his own theories.

I came across another very common idea about the Scientific Revolution
in browsing a recent issue of National Geographic. Speculating on the
impact of the possible future discovery of other, earth-like planets,
the article's author writes: "It's hard to overstate the excitement
scientists feel at the prospect of seeing that faint blue dot. If it
told of a watery, temperate place, humanity would face a 21st-century
version of Copernicus's realization nearly 500 years ago that the Earth
is not the center of the solar system. The discovery would show 'that
were not in a special place, that we might be part of a continuum of
life in the cosmos, and that life might be very common,' says Michael
Meyer, an astronomer at the University of Arizona."

As a corollary of the above, it's often suggested that many people in
the sixteenth and seventeenth centuries rejected the idea of a
sun-centered solar system because it displaced the Earth from its
unique location at the center of the universe, and therefore seemed to
make humanity less important in the scheme of creation. However,
Professor John Milton, with whom I am studying the history of science
at King's College in London, notes that historians have discovered no
evidence of any of the contemporaries of Copernicus or Galileo voicing
such a concern. And that is not too surprising, when we consider that,
in the prevailing cosmology of the time, the center of the cosmos was
not a very prestigious place to be. Aristotle regarded it as the region
to which gross and corrupt matter gravitated, distinctly inferior to
the unchanging perfection exhibited by the heavens. And in Dante's
Divine Comedy, the occupant of the Earth's center, and therefore at the
precise center of the universe, was none other than Satan himself. To
place the Earth in the heavens was to grant it a promotion.

None of what I have presented above is meant to claim that the
conservatism typical of entrenched interests, for instance, of the
Aristotelians who dominated the universities of the 16th and 17th
centuries, did not present an extra-scientific hurdle that new
conceptions of the physical world had to surmount, or that the Catholic
Church never resisted the progress of science for dogmatic reasons.

But the common, popular version of the history of science, in which
unselfish, heroic scientists do battle with the backward forces of
religion, is a fairy tale, spun mostly by Voltaire and his followers,
in order to discredit the religious belief that they despised. The real
history of the Scientific Revolution is much more complex and nuanced
than the simplistic morality play they made it out to be. If we are
truly interested in understanding the roles that religion and science
have played in creating our civilization, we should put aside the myth
and attend to the reality.

References

Appenzeller, T. (2004) "Search for Other Earths," National Geographic,
Dec. 2004, pp. 68-95.
Butterfield, H. (1949) The Origins of Modern Science: 1300-1800,
London: G. Bell and Sons Ltd.
Kuhn, T.S. (1957) The Copernican Revolution: Planetary Astronomy in the
Development of Western Thought, Cambridge, Massachusetts and London:
Harvard University Press.
Lakatos, I. (1978) The Methodology of Scientific Research Programmes:
Philosophical Papers Volume 1, Cambridge, England: Cambridge University
Press.
Shea, W.R. and M. Artigas (2003) Galileo in Rome: The Rise and Fall of
a Troublesome Genius, Oxford, England: Oxford University Press.
Wessells, N.K and J.L. Hopson (1988) Biology, New York: Random House.
---------

BM

This "article" is ridiculous. Come on, please be serious. Galileo and
Copernicus theories were not perfect, so religion did not opposed science?
Many references to Aristote while he was a forbidden author by the church.
Only clandestines had access to his valuable writings, under threath of a
nice little "būcher", just for them. Please.
.
User: "Kvebekski"

Title: Re: The Myth of Religious anti-Scientism 26 Jan 2005 03:05:01 AM
"While in the University, Galileo did extensive experimentation with
pendulums, finding that they nearly return to the height at which they were
released, that different pendulums have different periods (independent of
bob weight and amplitude), and that the square of the period varies directly
with the pendulum's length (and it does not not depend on the arc of the
swing). He later used pendulums to make a clock (1641). Galileo also found
that the speed at which bodies fall does not depend on their weight. He
documented these discoveries in his book called, "De Motu" (meaning "On
Motion").
Galileo was appointed professor of mathematics at the University of Padua
(1592-1610). In 1593, Galileo invented the thermometer. Some of his many
other inventions included a revolutionary water pump and a hydrostatic
balance (a device that weighed things accurately in either air or water).
In 1609, Galileo was the first person to use a telescope to observe the
skies (after hearing about Hans Lippershey's newly-invented telescope).
Galileo discovered the rings of Saturn (1610), was the first person to see
the four major moons of Jupiter (1610), observed the phases of Venus,
studied sunspots, and discovered many other important phenomena.
In 1610, Galileo moved to Florence, Italy, where he pursued his research at
the University of Florence and the Court of the Medici family, then headed
by Cosimo II, the Grand Duke of Tuscany.
After discussing and publishing the many discoveries he made using his
telescope, including the confirmation that the Earth orbits the Sun (this is
called the Copernican system), Galileo was charged with heresy by the
Inquisition. The Inquisition was an institution run by the Catholic church
for the eradication of heresies and heretics (ideas and people that ran
counter to teaching of the church). The church preferred a geocentric model
of the universe (a model in which the Earth is at the center of the
universe) to Galileo's heliocentric model of the Solar System (in which the
Sun is at the center of the Solar System, and the Earth and other planets
orbit around the Sun). After being warned not to discuss or publish his
heretical theory, Galileo disobeyed and published his book, "Dialogue
Concerning the Two Chief World Systems." He was found guilty of heresy in
1633 and was put under house arrest for life. He died in 1642, at his home
near Florence, Italy."
.
User: "Kvebekski"

Title: Re: The Myth of Religious anti-Scientism 26 Jan 2005 03:08:02 AM
"Kvebekski" <lucr@me.ca> wrote in message
news:ELDJd.753$E45.446@fe51.usenetserver.com...

"While in the University, Galileo did extensive experimentation with
pendulums, finding that they nearly return to the height at which they

were

released, that different pendulums have different periods (independent of
bob weight and amplitude), and that the square of the period varies

directly

with the pendulum's length (and it does not not depend on the arc of the
swing). He later used pendulums to make a clock (1641). Galileo also found
that the speed at which bodies fall does not depend on their weight. He
documented these discoveries in his book called, "De Motu" (meaning "On
Motion").

Galileo was appointed professor of mathematics at the University of Padua
(1592-1610). In 1593, Galileo invented the thermometer. Some of his many
other inventions included a revolutionary water pump and a hydrostatic
balance (a device that weighed things accurately in either air or water).

In 1609, Galileo was the first person to use a telescope to observe the
skies (after hearing about Hans Lippershey's newly-invented telescope).
Galileo discovered the rings of Saturn (1610), was the first person to see
the four major moons of Jupiter (1610), observed the phases of Venus,
studied sunspots, and discovered many other important phenomena.

In 1610, Galileo moved to Florence, Italy, where he pursued his research

at

the University of Florence and the Court of the Medici family, then headed
by Cosimo II, the Grand Duke of Tuscany.

After discussing and publishing the many discoveries he made using his
telescope, including the confirmation that the Earth orbits the Sun (this

is

called the Copernican system), Galileo was charged with heresy by the
Inquisition. The Inquisition was an institution run by the Catholic church
for the eradication of heresies and heretics (ideas and people that ran
counter to teaching of the church). The church preferred a geocentric

model

of the universe (a model in which the Earth is at the center of the
universe) to Galileo's heliocentric model of the Solar System (in which

the

Sun is at the center of the Solar System, and the Earth and other planets
orbit around the Sun). After being warned not to discuss or publish his
heretical theory, Galileo disobeyed and published his book, "Dialogue
Concerning the Two Chief World Systems." He was found guilty of heresy in
1633 and was put under house arrest for life. He died in 1642, at his home
near Florence, Italy."

Fortunately, the Sans-culottes stopped this insanity.
.
User: ""

Title: Re: The Myth of Religious anti-Scientism 26 Jan 2005 01:16:13 PM
Kvebekski wrote:

"Kvebekski" <lucr@me.ca> wrote in message
news:ELDJd.753$E45.446@fe51.usenetserver.com...

"While in the University, Galileo did extensive experimentation

with

pendulums, finding that they nearly return to the height at which

they

were

released, that different pendulums have different periods

(independent of

bob weight and amplitude), and that the square of the period varies

directly

with the pendulum's length (and it does not not depend on the arc

of the

swing). He later used pendulums to make a clock (1641). Galileo

also found

that the speed at which bodies fall does not depend on their

weight. He

documented these discoveries in his book called, "De Motu" (meaning

"On

Motion").

Galileo was appointed professor of mathematics at the University of

Padua

(1592-1610). In 1593, Galileo invented the thermometer. Some of his

many

other inventions included a revolutionary water pump and a

hydrostatic

balance (a device that weighed things accurately in either air or

water).


In 1609, Galileo was the first person to use a telescope to observe

the

skies (after hearing about Hans Lippershey's newly-invented

telescope).

Galileo discovered the rings of Saturn (1610), was the first person

to see

the four major moons of Jupiter (1610), observed the phases of

Venus,

studied sunspots, and discovered many other important phenomena.

In 1610, Galileo moved to Florence, Italy, where he pursued his

research

at

the University of Florence and the Court of the Medici family, then

headed

by Cosimo II, the Grand Duke of Tuscany.

After discussing and publishing the many discoveries he made using

his

telescope, including the confirmation that the Earth orbits the Sun

(this

is

called the Copernican system), Galileo was charged with heresy by

the

Inquisition. The Inquisition was an institution run by the Catholic

church

for the eradication of heresies and heretics (ideas and people that

ran

counter to teaching of the church). The church preferred a

geocentric

model

of the universe (a model in which the Earth is at the center of the
universe) to Galileo's heliocentric model of the Solar System (in

which

the

Sun is at the center of the Solar System, and the Earth and other

planets

orbit around the Sun). After being warned not to discuss or publish

his

heretical theory, Galileo disobeyed and published his book,

"Dialogue

Concerning the Two Chief World Systems." He was found guilty of

heresy in

1633 and was put under house arrest for life. He died in 1642, at

his home

near Florence, Italy."



Fortunately, the Sans-culottes stopped this insanity.

....And their heirs replaced this with Trofim Lysenko : )
BM
.
User: "Durak Avstraliiski"

Title: Re: The Myth of Religious anti-Scientism 26 Jan 2005 05:01:03 PM
<cherniymonakh@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1106745373.923255.105240@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com...


Kvebekski wrote:

"Kvebekski" <lucr@me.ca> wrote in message
news:ELDJd.753$E45.446@fe51.usenetserver.com...

"While in the University, Galileo did extensive experimentation

with

pendulums, finding that they nearly return to the height at which

they

were

released, that different pendulums have different periods

(independent of

bob weight and amplitude), and that the square of the period varies

directly

with the pendulum's length (and it does not not depend on the arc

of the

swing). He later used pendulums to make a clock (1641). Galileo

also found

that the speed at which bodies fall does not depend on their

weight. He

documented these discoveries in his book called, "De Motu" (meaning

"On

Motion").

Galileo was appointed professor of mathematics at the University of

Padua

(1592-1610). In 1593, Galileo invented the thermometer. Some of his

many

other inventions included a revolutionary water pump and a

hydrostatic

balance (a device that weighed things accurately in either air or

water).


In 1609, Galileo was the first person to use a telescope to observe

the

skies (after hearing about Hans Lippershey's newly-invented

telescope).

Galileo discovered the rings of Saturn (1610), was the first person

to see

the four major moons of Jupiter (1610), observed the phases of

Venus,

studied sunspots, and discovered many other important phenomena.

In 1610, Galileo moved to Florence, Italy, where he pursued his

research

at

the University of Florence and the Court of the Medici family, then

headed

by Cosimo II, the Grand Duke of Tuscany.

After discussing and publishing the many discoveries he made using

his

telescope, including the confirmation that the Earth orbits the Sun

(this

is

called the Copernican system), Galileo was charged with heresy by

the

Inquisition. The Inquisition was an institution run by the Catholic

church

for the eradication of heresies and heretics (ideas and people that

ran

counter to teaching of the church). The church preferred a

geocentric

model

of the universe (a model in which the Earth is at the center of the
universe) to Galileo's heliocentric model of the Solar System (in

which

the

Sun is at the center of the Solar System, and the Earth and other

planets

orbit around the Sun). After being warned not to discuss or publish

his

heretical theory, Galileo disobeyed and published his book,

"Dialogue

Concerning the Two Chief World Systems." He was found guilty of

heresy in

1633 and was put under house arrest for life. He died in 1642, at

his home

near Florence, Italy."



Fortunately, the Sans-culottes stopped this insanity.

...And their heirs replaced this with Trofim Lysenko : )

BM

Bible verus science? I do not find anything in the bible that contradicts
the laws of physics (depends on your interpretation of bible of course).
.
User: ""

Title: Re: The Myth of Religious anti-Scientism 26 Jan 2005 05:06:06 PM
Durak Avstraliiski wrote:

<cherniymonakh@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1106745373.923255.105240@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com...


Fortunately, the Sans-culottes stopped this insanity.

...And their heirs replaced this with Trofim Lysenko : )

BM


Bible verus science? I do not find anything in the bible that

contradicts

the laws of physics (depends on your interpretation of bible of

course).
Nor do I.
BM
.

User: "Al Klein"

Title: Re: The Myth of Religious anti-Scientism 26 Jan 2005 11:23:22 PM
On Thu, 27 Jan 2005 04:01:03 +1100, "Durak Avstraliiski" <a@b.c> said
in alt.atheism:

Bible verus science? I do not find anything in the bible that contradicts
the laws of physics (depends on your interpretation of bible of course).

Try the story of Noah's flood, for one.
--
"Atheism is the world of reality, it is reason, it is freedom. Atheism is
human concern, and intellectual honesty to a degree that the religious mind
cannot begin to understand. And yet it is more than this. Atheism is not an
old religion, it is not a new and coming religion, in fact it is not, and
never has been, a religion at all. The definition of Atheism is magnificent in
its simplicity: Atheism is merely the bed-rock of sanity in a world of
madness."
[Atheism: An Affirmative View, by Emmett F. Fields]
(random sig, produced by SigChanger)
rukbat at verizon dot net
.
User: "Durak Avstraliiski"

Title: Re: The Myth of Religious anti-Scientism 27 Jan 2005 12:44:54 AM
"Al Klein" <rukbat@pern.invalid> wrote in message
news:li9gv09stho09rkejpelt2a6gv5scksr4g@4ax.com...

On Thu, 27 Jan 2005 04:01:03 +1100, "Durak Avstraliiski" <a@b.c> said
in alt.atheism:

Bible verus science? I do not find anything in the bible that contradicts
the laws of physics (depends on your interpretation of bible of course).


Try the story of Noah's flood, for one.

A flood is a flood.
How about something like creating world by creating atmosphere, sea, plants,
animals and humans? Easy - terraforming.
Bible never talks of God creating *entire* universe, just solar system
stuff.
What else is in there?
.
User: "Al Klein"

Title: Re: The Myth of Religious anti-Scientism 27 Jan 2005 02:27:59 AM
On Thu, 27 Jan 2005 11:44:54 +1100, "Durak Avstraliiski" <a@b.c> said
in alt.atheism:

"Al Klein" <rukbat@pern.invalid> wrote in message
news:li9gv09stho09rkejpelt2a6gv5scksr4g@4ax.com...

On Thu, 27 Jan 2005 04:01:03 +1100, "Durak Avstraliiski" <a@b.c> said
in alt.atheism:

Bible verus science? I do not find anything in the bible that contradicts
the laws of physics (depends on your interpretation of bible of course).

Try the story of Noah's flood, for one.

A flood is a flood.

The bible doesn't say "there was a flood". It says that ALL the land
was covered by water. Where did the water come from? Where did it
go? It's not here now. Not if you add up all the liquid, solid and
gaseous "water".
And 29,000 feet of rain in 40 days and nights? Talk about
contradicting the laws of physics. Superheated steam doesn't fall as
rain.

How about something like creating world by creating atmosphere, sea, plants,
animals and humans? Easy - terraforming.

Easy? Which worlds have you terraformed lately?

Bible never talks of God creating *entire* universe, just solar system
stuff.

And the stars.
--
"Christians, it is needless to say, utterly detest each other. They slander each
other constantly with the vilest forms of abuse and cannot come to any sort of
agreement in their teachings. Each sect brands its own, fills the head of its own
with deceitful nonsense, and makes perfect little pigs of those it wins over to its
side."
- Celsus On the True Doctrine, translated by R. Joseph Hoffman, Oxford University Press, 1987
(random sig, produced by SigChanger)
rukbat at verizon dot net
.
User: "TCS"

Title: Re: The Myth of Religious anti-Scientism 27 Jan 2005 02:31:58 AM
On Thu, 27 Jan 2005 02:27:59 GMT, Al Klein <rukbat@pern.invalid> wrote:

On Thu, 27 Jan 2005 11:44:54 +1100, "Durak Avstraliiski" <a@b.c> said
in alt.atheism:

"Al Klein" <rukbat@pern.invalid> wrote in message
news:li9gv09stho09rkejpelt2a6gv5scksr4g@4ax.com...

On Thu, 27 Jan 2005 04:01:03 +1100, "Durak Avstraliiski" <a@b.c> said
in alt.atheism:

Bible verus science? I do not find anything in the bible that contradicts
the laws of physics (depends on your interpretation of bible of course).

Try the story of Noah's flood, for one.

A flood is a flood.

The bible doesn't say "there was a flood". It says that ALL the land
was covered by water. Where did the water come from? Where did it
go? It's not here now. Not if you add up all the liquid, solid and
gaseous "water".
And 29,000 feet of rain in 40 days and nights? Talk about
contradicting the laws of physics. Superheated steam doesn't fall as
rain.

How about something like creating world by creating atmosphere, sea, plants,
animals and humans? Easy - terraforming.

Easy? Which worlds have you terraformed lately?

Bible never talks of God creating *entire* universe, just solar system
stuff.

And the stars.

Of course the stars are just pinpricks of light.
And the earth was flat.
.
User: "Durak Avstraliiski"

Title: Re: The Myth of Religious anti-Scientism 27 Jan 2005 06:50:51 AM
"TCS" <The-Central-Scrutinizer@p.o.b.o.x.com> wrote in message
news:slrncvgkku.jqf.The-Central-Scrutinizer@linux.client.comcast.net...

On Thu, 27 Jan 2005 02:27:59 GMT, Al Klein <rukbat@pern.invalid> wrote:

On Thu, 27 Jan 2005 11:44:54 +1100, "Durak Avstraliiski" <a@b.c> said
in alt.atheism:


"Al Klein" <rukbat@pern.invalid> wrote in message
news:li9gv09stho09rkejpelt2a6gv5scksr4g@4ax.com...

On Thu, 27 Jan 2005 04:01:03 +1100, "Durak Avstraliiski" <a@b.c> said
in alt.atheism:


Bible verus science? I do not find anything in the bible that
contradicts
the laws of physics (depends on your interpretation of bible of
course).


Try the story of Noah's flood, for one.


A flood is a flood.


The bible doesn't say "there was a flood". It says that ALL the land
was covered by water. Where did the water come from? Where did it
go? It's not here now. Not if you add up all the liquid, solid and
gaseous "water".


And 29,000 feet of rain in 40 days and nights? Talk about
contradicting the laws of physics. Superheated steam doesn't fall as
rain.


How about something like creating world by creating atmosphere, sea,
plants,
animals and humans? Easy - terraforming.


Easy? Which worlds have you terraformed lately?


Bible never talks of God creating *entire* universe, just solar system
stuff.


And the stars.


Of course the stars are just pinpricks of light.
And the earth was flat.

How do you think the bible would have described the earth's atmosphere, and
perhaps the moon, in those days. People did not know earth was a sphere, let
alone that it had a finite atmosphere. The best word is clearly heavens.
The stars may simply refer to the fact that the atmosphere was clear, unlike
the atmospheres of most other planets, which do not allow vision of the
stars.
If you consider definiton of heavens in context like this, then you can
increase the reach of christianity to more people by removing references to
the supernatural.
No where in the bible does it say that God is supernatural (that he defies
the laws of physics).
Lets not take bible out of the context. Lets more misinterpret the god's
word.
.
User: "Durak Avstraliiski"

Title: Re: The Myth of Religious anti-Scientism 27 Jan 2005 06:55:43 AM
"Durak Avstraliiski" <a@b.c> wrote in message
news:41f88f4b$7@clarion.carno.net.au...


"TCS" <The-Central-Scrutinizer@p.o.b.o.x.com> wrote in message
news:slrncvgkku.jqf.The-Central-Scrutinizer@linux.client.comcast.net...

On Thu, 27 Jan 2005 02:27:59 GMT, Al Klein <rukbat@pern.invalid> wrote:

On Thu, 27 Jan 2005 11:44:54 +1100, "Durak Avstraliiski" <a@b.c> said
in alt.atheism:


"Al Klein" <rukbat@pern.invalid> wrote in message
news:li9gv09stho09rkejpelt2a6gv5scksr4g@4ax.com...

On Thu, 27 Jan 2005 04:01:03 +1100, "Durak Avstraliiski" <a@b.c> said
in alt.atheism:


Bible verus science? I do not find anything in the bible that
contradicts
the laws of physics (depends on your interpretation of bible of
course).


Try the story of Noah's flood, for one.


A flood is a flood.


The bible doesn't say "there was a flood". It says that ALL the land
was covered by water. Where did the water come from? Where did it
go? It's not here now. Not if you add up all the liquid, solid and
gaseous "water".


And 29,000 feet of rain in 40 days and nights? Talk about
contradicting the laws of physics. Superheated steam doesn't fall as
rain.


How about something like creating world by creating atmosphere, sea,
plants,
animals and humans? Easy - terraforming.


Easy? Which worlds have you terraformed lately?


Bible never talks of God creating *entire* universe, just solar system
stuff.


And the stars.


Of course the stars are just pinpricks of light.
And the earth was flat.


How do you think the bible would have described the earth's atmosphere,
and perhaps the moon, in those days. People did not know earth was a
sphere, let alone that it had a finite atmosphere. The best word is
clearly heavens.

The stars may simply refer to the fact that the atmosphere was clear,
unlike the atmospheres of most other planets, which do not allow vision of
the stars.

If you consider definiton of heavens in context like this, then you can
increase the reach of christianity to more people by removing references
to the supernatural.

No where in the bible does it say that God is supernatural (that he defies
the laws of physics).

Lets not take bible out of the context. Lets more misinterpret the god's
word.

Error: That was supposed to say "Lets not misinterpret the god's word".
Very unfortunate, I know.
------------ And now a word from our sponsor ----------------------
For a quality mail server, try SurgeMail, easy to install,
fast, efficient and reliable. Run a million users on a standard
PC running NT or Unix without running out of power, use the best!
---- See http://netwinsite.com/sponsor/sponsor_surgemail.htm ----
.

User: "Al Klein"

Title: Re: The Myth of Religious anti-Scientism 27 Jan 2005 06:31:16 PM
On Thu, 27 Jan 2005 17:50:51 +1100, "Durak Avstraliiski" <a@b.c> said
in alt.atheism:

"TCS" <The-Central-Scrutinizer@p.o.b.o.x.com> wrote in message
news:slrncvgkku.jqf.The-Central-Scrutinizer@linux.client.comcast.net...

Of course the stars are just pinpricks of light.
And the earth was flat.

How do you think the bible would have described the earth's atmosphere, and
perhaps the moon, in those days. People did not know earth was a sphere, let
alone that it had a finite atmosphere.

An ALL-knowing god would have known how to phrase it.

The best word is clearly heavens.

Not if the book was to last more than 1,000 years.

The stars may simply refer to the fact that the atmosphere was clear, unlike
the atmospheres of most other planets, which do not allow vision of the
stars.

If they didn't know about other planets, why would the bible refer to
something in relation to other planets? That's a contradiction.

If you consider definiton of heavens in context like this, then you can
increase the reach of christianity

We're talking about Genesis - there was no Christianity back then. It
still had about 2,000 years to wait.

No where in the bible does it say that God is supernatural (that he defies
the laws of physics).

He exists when there's no universe in which to exist. He creates life
out of dust. He creates life out of a rib. He causes a flood that's
physically impossible. The very definition of "miracle" is something
that can't happen but does. He creates a circle using 3 as the ratio
between the diameter and the circumference.
There are plenty of places in the bible in which physical law is
violated.
--
"I believe in Spinoza's God who reveals himself in the harmony of all that exists, but
not in a God who concerns himself with the fate and actions of human beings."
-A. Einstein (1929 -- Einstein Archive 33-272)
(random sig, produced by SigChanger)
rukbat at verizon dot net
.

User: "TCS"

Title: Re: The Myth of Religious anti-Scientism 27 Jan 2005 02:30:20 PM
On Thu, 27 Jan 2005 17:50:51 +1100, Durak Avstraliiski <a@b.c> wrote:

How do you think the bible would have described the earth's atmosphere, and
perhaps the moon, in those days. People did not know earth was a sphere, let
alone that it had a finite atmosphere. The best word is clearly heavens.

If you went back in time and had the savages write down a story, you
don't think you could include detail they didn't understand?
.
User: "Durak Avstraliiski"

Title: Re: The Myth of Religious anti-Scientism 27 Jan 2005 04:03:27 PM
"TCS" <The-Central-Scrutinizer@p.o.b.o.x.com> wrote in message
news:slrncvhuns.jqf.The-Central-Scrutinizer@linux.client.comcast.net...

On Thu, 27 Jan 2005 17:50:51 +1100, Durak Avstraliiski <a@b.c> wrote:

How do you think the bible would have described the earth's atmosphere,
and
perhaps the moon, in those days. People did not know earth was a sphere,
let
alone that it had a finite atmosphere. The best word is clearly heavens.


If you went back in time and had the savages write down a story, you
don't think you could include detail they didn't understand?

The bible appears to be a book involved solely with sociological influence
on people. It does not interfer with the science and technology of people.
This appears to be a trict restriction of the bible.
PS. The Ten Commandments had a tremendous good influence on europe. That was
the time of good and evil struggle, and good prevailed.
.
User: "Christopher A. Lee"

Title: Re: The Myth of Religious anti-Scientism 27 Jan 2005 04:47:23 PM
On Fri, 28 Jan 2005 03:03:27 +1100, "Durak Avstraliiski" <a@b.c>
wrote:


"TCS" <The-Central-Scrutinizer@p.o.b.o.x.com> wrote in message
news:slrncvhuns.jqf.The-Central-Scrutinizer@linux.client.comcast.net...

On Thu, 27 Jan 2005 17:50:51 +1100, Durak Avstraliiski <a@b.c> wrote:

How do you think the bible would have described the earth's atmosphere,
and
perhaps the moon, in those days. People did not know earth was a sphere,
let
alone that it had a finite atmosphere. The best word is clearly heavens.


If you went back in time and had the savages write down a story, you
don't think you could include detail they didn't understand?


The bible appears to be a book involved solely with sociological influence
on people. It does not interfer with the science and technology of people.
This appears to be a trict restriction of the bible.

PS. The Ten Commandments had a tremendous good influence on europe. That was
the time of good and evil struggle, and good prevailed.

In the form of the horrors of the reformation, the dark ages, witch
burnings etc.
.
User: ""

Title: Re: The Myth of Religious anti-Scientism 28 Jan 2005 01:23:08 AM
Christopher A. Lee wrote:

On Fri, 28 Jan 2005 03:03:27 +1100, "Durak Avstraliiski" <a@b.c>
wrote:


"TCS" <The-Central-Scrutinizer@p.o.b.o.x.com> wrote in message


news:slrncvhuns.jqf.The-Central-Scrutinizer@linux.client.comcast.net...

On Thu, 27 Jan 2005 17:50:51 +1100, Durak Avstraliiski <a@b.c>

wrote:


How do you think the bible would have described the earth's

atmosphere,

and
perhaps the moon, in those days. People did not know earth was a

sphere,

let
alone that it had a finite atmosphere. The best word is clearly

heavens.


If you went back in time and had the savages write down a story,

you

don't think you could include detail they didn't understand?


The bible appears to be a book involved solely with sociological

influence

on people. It does not interfer with the science and technology of

people.

This appears to be a trict restriction of the bible.

PS. The Ten Commandments had a tremendous good influence on europe.

That was

the time of good and evil struggle, and good prevailed.


In the form of the horrors of the reformation, the dark ages, witch
burnings etc.

Pre-Christian Europeans were much much worse than that. As was the
post-Enlightenment Europe (Robespierre, Hitler, Lenin, Stalin, etc.)
BM
.

User: ""

Title: Re: The Myth of Religious anti-Scientism 28 Jan 2005 02:01:39 AM
Christopher A. Lee wrote:

On Fri, 28 Jan 2005 03:03:27 +1100, "Durak Avstraliiski" <a@b.c>
wrote:


The bible appears to be a book involved solely with sociological

influence

on people. It does not interfer with the science and technology of

people.

This appears to be a trict restriction of the bible.

PS. The Ten Commandments had a tremendous good influence on europe.

That was

the time of good and evil struggle, and good prevailed.


In the form of the horrors of the reformation, the dark ages, witch
burnings etc.

A glimpse of Europe before the "Horrors" of Christianity:
The story of the Roman Empire at the time of the birth of Christ is
one of a society with no concept of the human being as a sovereign
individual with claims against state and society. It is a time of
disposable children, disposable women, and widespread human slavery.
For example, in the empire of the 1st century, it was not unusual for
a pregnant woman to receive a note from her husband instructing her
that when she gave birth: "if it is a boy keep it, if a girl discard
it." "Discarding" a baby usually consisted of leaving it on the
nearest dungheap. The baby would usually die of exposure within a few
hours, or possibly be eaten by wolves. If the baby was fortunate it
would be found by a member of one of the local Christian communities
that often kept an eye on places where babies were dumped in order to
adopt them. The discarded babies were usually girls, but deformed male
babies could suffer the same fate, and the practice was so widespread
that in many parts of the empire, men outnumbered women by 30 percent
or more.
Once grown, pagan women could rarely expect better treatment than they
had been afforded when they had been infants. Compared to Christian
women, pagan women married younger, had less choice in whom they
married, and were expected to endure frequent adultery from their
spouses since Saint Paul's admonition to men to remain faithful was
hardly the prevailing attitude among pagan men. The Christian ideal
that men and women must be held to identical systems of ethics and
were equals in the eyes of God was, to say the least, a novelty in
pagan Rome. Ironically, according to the authors, Saint Paul, the man
villainized by non-Christians as the leading misogynist of the bible
was quite possibly the most prominent proponent of "sexual equality"
in the Empire.
The restriction of sexual behavior to marriage was certainly an
affront to Roman noblemen who kept young boys imprisoned in their
private chambers for their sexual pleasure, and the idea that the
poor, the helpless, and the weak should be treated with kindness and
mercy struck many pagans as ridiculous considering their pagan ideals
of strength, heroism, and conquest. The medieval knight's oath to
protect orphans and widows would have struck a Roman centurion as
pointless and absurd.
http://www.lewrockwell.com/mcmaken/mcmaken66.html
---------------
BM
.


User: "Al Klein"

Title: Re: The Myth of Religious anti-Scientism 28 Jan 2005 12:15:29 AM
On Fri, 28 Jan 2005 03:03:27 +1100, "Durak Avstraliiski" <a@b.c> said
in alt.atheism:

PS. The Ten Commandments had a tremendous good influence on europe.

The Holocaust was "a tremendous good influence on europe"?
--
"To assert that the earth revolves around the sun is as erroneous as to claim that Jesus
was not born of a virgin."
Cardinal Bellarmine,[1615, during the trial of Galileo]
(random sig, produced by SigChanger)
rukbat at verizon dot net
.
User: ""

Title: Re: The Myth of Religious anti-Scientism 28 Jan 2005 01:24:17 AM
Al Klein wrote:

On Fri, 28 Jan 2005 03:03:27 +1100, "Durak Avstraliiski" <a@b.c> said
in alt.atheism:

PS. The Ten Commandments had a tremendous good influence on europe.


The Holocaust was "a tremendous good influence on europe"?

Another example of post-Christianity at work (not your stupidity, the
Holocaust).
BM

--
"To assert that the earth revolves around the sun is as erroneous as

to claim that Jesus

was not born of a virgin."
Cardinal Bellarmine,[1615, during the trial of Galileo]
(random sig, produced by SigChanger)
rukbat at verizon dot net

.


User: "Dell User"

Title: Re: The Myth of Religious anti-Scientism 28 Jan 2005 03:17:03 AM
On Fri, 28 Jan 2005 03:03:27 +1100, Durak Avstraliiski wrote:


PS. The Ten Commandments had a tremendous good influence on europe. That was
the time of good and evil struggle, and good prevailed.

Greeks did not know ten commandments, they had their own gods. Was evil
running unopposed? No because the previous sentence is crap. And as far
as I know Greeks did not burn witches. (Yes, I know that they executed
Socrates but Inquisition of the Middle Ages dwarfed such things.)
Some features of Inquisition have never been surpassed. E.g. only
Inquisition would go after people many years after they died and upon
posthumous conviction confiscate their property (their children's
property, that is). Even Stalin and Hitler did not do that.
.
User: ""

Title: Re: The Myth of Religious anti-Scientism 28 Jan 2005 02:17:34 PM
Dell User wrote:

On Fri, 28 Jan 2005 03:03:27 +1100, Durak Avstraliiski wrote:


PS. The Ten Commandments had a tremendous good influence on europe.

That was

the time of good and evil struggle, and good prevailed.


Greeks did not know ten commandments, they had their own gods. Was

evil

running unopposed? No because the previous sentence is crap. And as

far

as I know Greeks did not burn witches. (Yes, I know that they

executed

Socrates but Inquisition of the Middle Ages dwarfed such things.)

A glimpse of the pre-Christian Classic world:
The story of the Roman Empire at the time of the birth of Christ is
one of a society with no concept of the human being as a sovereign
individual with claims against state and society. It is a time of
disposable children, disposable women, and widespread human slavery.
For example, in the empire of the 1st century, it was not unusual for
a pregnant woman to receive a note from her husband instructing her
that when she gave birth: "if it is a boy keep it, if a girl discard
it." "Discarding" a baby usually consisted of leaving it on the
nearest dungheap. The baby would usually die of exposure within a few
hours, or possibly be eaten by wolves. If the baby was fortunate it
would be found by a member of one of the local Christian communities
that often kept an eye on places where babies were dumped in order to
adopt them. The discarded babies were usually girls, but deformed male
babies could suffer the same fate, and the practice was so widespread
that in many parts of the empire, men outnumbered women by 30 percent
or more.
Once grown, pagan women could rarely expect better treatment than they
had been afforded when they had been infants. Compared to Christian
women, pagan women married younger, had less choice in whom they
married, and were expected to endure frequent adultery from their
spouses since Saint Paul's admonition to men to remain faithful was
hardly the prevailing attitude among pagan men. The Christian ideal
that men and women must be held to identical systems of ethics and
were equals in the eyes of God was, to say the least, a novelty in
pagan Rome. Ironically, according to the authors, Saint Paul, the man
villainized by non-Christians as the leading misogynist of the bible
was quite possibly the most prominent proponent of "sexual equality"
in the Empire.
The restriction of sexual behavior to marriage was certainly an
affront to Roman noblemen who kept young boys imprisoned in their
private chambers for their sexual pleasure, and the idea that the
poor, the helpless, and the weak should be treated with kindness and
mercy struck many pagans as ridiculous considering their pagan ideals
of strength, heroism, and conquest. The medieval knight's oath to
protect orphans and widows would have struck a Roman centurion as
pointless and absurd.
http://www.lewrockwell.com/mcmaken/mcmaken66.html
90% of society in classic Greek times were slaves, andbecause prior to
Christianity slaves were not believed to have any inherent value
(Aristotle I beleive claimed that they did not even possess souls and
other philosophers referred to slaves as "animae instruments" or
tools).

Some features of Inquisition have never been surpassed. E.g. only
Inquisition would go after people many years after they died and upon
posthumous conviction confiscate their property (their children's
property, that is). Even Stalin and Hitler did not do that.

To compare the Inquisition, whose low point in Spain coincided with the
murder of 2,000 people over 20 years, with Hitler and Stalin who killed
tens of millions each does nothing but reveal your monumental,
irrational, anti-Christian bigotry. But then again, so does your
defense of the classical Greek world.
BM
.
User: "Durak Avstraliiski"

Title: Re: The Myth of Religious anti-Scientism 28 Jan 2005 04:40:19 PM
<cherniymonakh@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1106921854.246682.76880@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...


Dell User wrote:

On Fri, 28 Jan 2005 03:03:27 +1100, Durak Avstraliiski wrote:


PS. The Ten Commandments had a tremendous good influence on europe.

That was

the time of good and evil struggle, and good prevailed.


Greeks did not know ten commandments, they had their own gods. Was

evil

running unopposed? No because the previous sentence is crap. And as

far

as I know Greeks did not burn witches. (Yes, I know that they

executed

Socrates but Inquisition of the Middle Ages dwarfed such things.)


A glimpse of the pre-Christian Classic world:

The story of the Roman Empire at the time of the birth of Christ is
one of a society with no concept of the human being as a sovereign
individual with claims against state and society. It is a time of
disposable children, disposable women, and widespread human slavery.
For example, in the empire of the 1st century, it was not unusual for
a pregnant woman to receive a note from her husband instructing her
that when she gave birth: "if it is a boy keep it, if a girl discard
it." "Discarding" a baby usually consisted of leaving it on the
nearest dungheap. The baby would usually die of exposure within a few
hours, or possibly be eaten by wolves. If the baby was fortunate it
would be found by a member of one of the local Christian communities
that often kept an eye on places where babies were dumped in order to
adopt them. The discarded babies were usually girls, but deformed male
babies could suffer the same fate, and the practice was so widespread
that in many parts of the empire, men outnumbered women by 30 percent
or more.

I had no idea.
------------ And now a word from our sponsor ----------------------
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.





User: "MarkA"

Title: Re: The Myth of Religious anti-Scientism 27 Jan 2005 02:29:54 PM
On Thu, 27 Jan 2005 17:50:51 +1100, Durak Avstraliiski wrote:



How do you think the bible would have described the earth's atmosphere,
and perhaps the moon, in those days. People did not know earth was a
sphere, let alone that it had a finite atmosphere. The best word is
clearly heavens.

The stars may simply refer to the fact that the atmosphere was clear,
unlike the atmospheres of most other planets, which do not allow vision of
the stars.

If you consider definiton of heavens in context like this, then you can
increase the reach of christianity to more people by removing references
to the supernatural.

Yes. Christianity minus Supernatural_BS = Humanism. The world could do
with quite a bit more.


No where in the bible does it say that God is supernatural (that he
defies the laws of physics).

Lets not take bible out of the context. Lets more misinterpret the god's
word.

Have you noticed that ever since people started reading the bible for
themselves, there have been more and more different interpretations,
leading to more and more sects of Protestantism? So which one is correct,
and which ones are "misinterpretations"? Are you willing to kill someone
over the differences?
--
MarkA
(still caught in the maze of twisty little passages, all different)
.





User: "Joe Orthodox"

Title: Re: The Myth of Religious anti-Scientism 27 Jan 2005 12:37:18 AM

"Atheism is the world of reality, it is reason, it is freedom. Atheism is
human concern, and intellectual honesty to a degree that the religious mind
cannot begin to understand. And yet it is more than this. Atheism is not an
old religion, it is not a new and coming religion, in fact it is not, and
never has been, a religion at all. The definition of Atheism is magnificent in
its simplicity: Atheism is merely the bed-rock of sanity in a world of
madness."

- Comrade Lenin
.


User: "Dell User"

Title: Re: The Myth of Religious anti-Scientism 27 Jan 2005 05:12:13 AM
On Thu, 27 Jan 2005 04:01:03 +1100, Durak Avstraliiski wrote:


Bible verus science? I do not find anything in the bible that contradicts
the laws of physics (depends on your interpretation of bible of course).

Like Jesus walking on water? Three day darkness in Egypt?
Turning a stick into a snake? Bible is full of "miracles", many of them
(not all) contradict the laws of nature.
.