| Topic: |
Religions > Atheism |
| User: |
"V" |
| Date: |
20 Apr 2007 07:35:11 AM |
| Object: |
The only true freethinkers are agnostic freethinkers. |
The only true freethinkers are agnostic freethinkers.
That is the beauty of being a freethinker. We can think for
ourselves.
As such, when we get a toolbox we can decide which tools to use for
the job. Some tools are used a lot, other tools are left alone for the
time being, and still others are trashed when we see they are broken
and useless.
Again, a freethinker is 'free to decide' how they wish to proceed.
Just be careful of falling into the trap of 'mind manacled
freethinker' as many ego based people fall into.
No, egocentricity is not good for spiritual work and we need to be
open to others ideas and embrace them as nourishment for your growth
and sustenance for life - as no one person is God.
Traditional freethinkers (atheists) do not accept me as one of their
group, since I draw from spiritual paths as well as wordily areas to
garner wisdom to live at peace. Traditional freethinkers do not like
anything that comes from religion.
Kind of a misnomer isn't it...I'm a freethinker...but I must block out
everything that comes from religion and spiritual traditions and
whatever other prejudice I wish to inject into the equation?
Psychologist William James once said, "A great many people believe
they are thinking when they are merely rearranging their prejudices."
When we limit prejudice we can open our minds to truth and peace. And
realize the truth of Blake's words that "all deities reside within the
human breast."
If it is religion that an atheists need to adopt, they only have to
look as far as the religion of humanity. But just paying secular
humanism lip service will not do any good.
Our talk of spiritual values must match our actions.
I was at a religious discussion where the group was composed of a wide
spectrum of believers and non believers. One atheist said he ran his
life by the golden rule. Another person piped up that the golden rule
came from the bible, which made the atheist wince.
The atheist seemed to take pride in his self sufficiency and did not
like to run his life by anything that came out of the bible. When it
came up that the concept of golden rule might be from an earlier
source than the bible, the atheist was relieved.
This was a good reminder to me to examine where my guiding light
resides? Is it ego based or truth based?
When the guiding light of this atheist was not grounded in the bible
he was happy. But when it came from an area that he did not like, he
was upset.
How can the same material be used to build a palace by one man, yet
only build a hovel for another? By one spiritual practitioner seeing
truth and applying it to live a life at peace. And the other person
only seeing prejudice and problems and doing nothing.
Every religion was made by man and as such every religion is imperfect
as it is run by man. Despite these imperfections, each religion also
has many "perfection's" within it as well.
We can still be open to peace generating tools from any of the
religions and spiritual traditions that are available to us if we are
serious about being at peace. This requires us to run our life by
truth and not by prejudice.
In the Sermon on the Mount, Jesus said: "Therefore, whatever you want
men to do to you, do also to them" (Matthew 7:12). Nowadays this verse
is commonly referred to as "The Golden Rule," and is more commonly
quoted as: "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you."
Here are some of the earliest sources for this concept of reciprocity
~1970-1640 BCE "Do for one who may do for you, / That you may cause
him thus to do." - The Tale of the Eloquent Peasant 109-110, Ancient
Egypt, tr. R.B. Parkinson.
* ~700 BCE "That nature only is good when it shall not do unto another
whatever is not good for its own self." - Dadistan-i-Dinik 94:5,
Zoroastrianism.
* ? BCE "Whatever is disagreeable to yourself do not do unto others."
- Shayast-na-Shayast 13:29, Zoroastrianism.
* ~550 BCE "You shall not take vengeance or bear a grudge against your
countrymen. Love your fellow as yourself: I am the LORD." - Tanakh,
new JPS translation, Leviticus 19:18, Judaism.
* ~500 BCE "Hurt not others in ways that you yourself would find
hurtful." - Udana-Varga 5:18, Buddhism.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethic_of_reciprocity
Now, whether you believe in God or believe in Jesus or are an atheist
or Buddhist does this wisdom not apply to you? This truth is universal
in nature as it is based not on being of a certain religion, other
than that of the religion of humanity.
In this case, you can adopt a peace generating tool and apply it to
your life irrespective of your religious beliefs or lack thereof.
I had to chuckle one time when an atheists argued that the golden rule
is not perfect, so he said he does not follow it. When I questioned
him about what he does follow as well as the state of perfection that
applied to his life, all he could do was reply with profanities and
attacks on me.
If we are waiting for perfection when it comes to spiritual studies we
will always be disappointed. Before applying perfection to anything
outside of us, we should examine the perfection within us.
The nature of humans is that of imperfection, so we must always look
towards direction and forget perfection.
I heard a story one time in a Yoga lecture that illustrates this
point. "Range is of the ego - Form is of the soul." The only thing we
need to be concerned with is how is our form when it comes to our
spiritual practice and our life.
Regarding the golden rule? It is more perfect than imperfect, so it is
a most useful tool to live a life at peace by.
And when we combine it with other tools such as universality, natural
law, contrast the greater good with the greater right, etc the
synergistic effect is close to perfection as humans can get with this
subject.
But it takes some thinking and one will not see it without an open
mind. Wisdom for living a life at peace is all around us for the
taking. But many of us get blinded with labels and personal
prejudices.
Whenever we take it upon ourselves to beat down, we are headed in a
direction of destroying peace. We destroy our own peace as well as
others peace. As such, I practice from many religious and spiritual
traditions without problems or prejudices and readily look for such
gifts irrespective of what label they come under - on the contrary I
am most grateful wherever I find them.
If I am not able to use a concept, I leave it alone, but do not spend
my time or energies to beat others down.
Do we like to be beaten down?
I saw some paintings in a Japanese museum that showed a cousin of the
Buddha being of great power and to show his strength he went up to a
baby elephant and pushed it down to the ground. A second painting
showed the Buddha helping this baby elephant back up to his feet and
the Buddha lifted the elephant high up over his head and said, "It is
much better to uplift - than to tear down."
Whether this is a true story or not I do not know. But we can all
benefit from uplifting rather than destroying.
I see this predisposition to destruction many times in responses I
receive from my posts. The critiques offer much in the line of 'no
goods' but they seldom do they offer any substantive tools to finding
peace. Maybe I do not have it '100% right' but I have it 'right
enough' to be able to be at peace if I apply these principles. If I
waited for perfection, I would never act. I use the tools at hand.
Aristotle ~ "It is the mark of an educated mind to rest satisfied with
the degree of precision which the nature of the subject admits and not
to seek exactness where only an approximation is possible."
This being able to 'rest satisfied' is something the perfectionists
lack and why they will never be at peace until they stop collecting
concepts and start using the concepts of peace generations.
The atheist I mentioned above demonstrated this with his blanket
dismissal of the golden rule since it is not 100% perfect. He could
offer no substitutes for the golden rule, all he could do was succumb
to personal attacks on me. We can examine our writing to see what
useful tools for finding peace we offer to others it also says a lot
about our own practice of generating inner peace.
When you practice peace promotion with others you will reap inner
peace promotion. When you practice destroying others peace, you will
reap self destruction of inner peace. This is the truth when the
prejudice of ego is striped away.
I submit that you all drop the pretense and lies that you have been
grasping onto for al your life. Whether atheists, theists or
Buddhists, drop all the lies and rebuild your life through a
foundation of truth and testing and regenerate yourselves into a truth
based agnostic freethinker.
Take care,
V (Male)
Agnostic Freethinker
Practical Philosopher
AA#2
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| User: "Robibnikoff" |
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| Title: Re: The only true freethinkers are agnostic freethinkers. |
20 Apr 2007 11:45:47 AM |
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"V" <vfr44@aol.com> wrote in message
news:1177072511.052592.110000@o5g2000hsb.googlegroups.com...
The only true freethinkers are agnostic freethinkers.
Sez you.
Don't you have a bottle of Ripple to guzzle?
--
Robyn
Resident Witchypoo
BAAWA Knight!
#1557
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| User: "Syd M." |
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| Title: Re: The only true freethinkers are agnostic freethinkers. |
20 Apr 2007 03:49:10 PM |
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On Apr 20, 12:45 pm, "Robibnikoff" <witchy...@broomstick.com> wrote:
"V" <v...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:1177072511.052592.110000@o5g2000hsb.googlegroups.com...
The only true freethinkers are agnostic freethinkers.
Sez you.
Don't you have a bottle of Ripple to guzzle?
--
And anyway..
Since when did V-chan turn into an agnostic freethinker?
PDW
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| User: "Scot" |
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| Title: Re: The only true freethinkers are agnostic freethinkers. |
21 Apr 2007 08:34:34 AM |
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"V" <vfr44@aol.com> wrote in message
news:1177072511.052592.110000@o5g2000hsb.googlegroups.com...
The only true freethinkers are agnostic freethinkers.
I think I can argue that fallibilist freethinkers are even more free than
agnostic freethinkers.
Here goes:
Agnostic position:
=================================
http://aleph0.clarku.edu/huxley/CE5/Agn-X.html
It is wrong for a man to say that he is certain of the objective truth of
any proposition unless he can produce evidence which logically justifies
that certainty.
====== end of quote =================
The agnostic might tell you "I can't be certain that
invisible elephants exist and I can't be certain that
invisible elephants do not exist. I do not find
logically satisfying evidence either way."
Perhaps agnostics aim to achieve certainty (perhaps not). But aiming to
achieve certainty is a limit to freedom.
On the other hand, the fallibilist doesn't aim for certainty, but aims for
conclusions that are reasonable.
The fallibilist might tell you "I can't be *absolutely
certain*, but I have looked at the "evidence" and
I find there is NO evidence that invisible elephants
exist. I find it MORE reasonable to assume that
there are no invisible elephants. I *can't be
certain* but I'm certain enough to say that there
are no invisible elephants. "
Recap:
My argument is that fallibilists aim for conclusions that are reasonable but
agnostics aim for conclusions that are certain. That makes fallibilism more
free.
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| User: "Michael Gray" |
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| Title: Re: The only true freethinkers are agnostic freethinkers. |
20 Apr 2007 07:20:24 PM |
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Haven't you gone yet?
Broken your solemn promise to ***** off, already?
Surpise, surprise, surprise.
--
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| User: "Provoker" |
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| Title: Re: The only true freethinkers are agnostic freethinkers. |
20 Apr 2007 03:21:04 PM |
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Helo V:
I completely agree with your statement that the only true free
thinkers are agnostic, but and when one embraces things which are not
logical, he has left the realm of free thought, and is in the realm of
free imagination, or free gullibility.
You appear to see spirituality as illogical, yet you also appear to
embrace it.
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| User: "Christopher A.Lee" |
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| Title: Re: The only true freethinkers are agnostic freethinkers. |
20 Apr 2007 05:23:14 PM |
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On 20 Apr 2007 13:21:04 -0700, Provoker <provoker@3web.com> wrote:
Helo V:
I completely agree with your statement that the only true free
thinkers are agnostic, but and when one embraces things which are not
logical, he has left the realm of free thought, and is in the realm of
free imagination, or free gullibility.
What do you imagine there is to be agnostic about?
The free thinking way is to treat it as a religious belief and leave
it at that.
Singling it out to be agnostic about it, gives it an undeserved
credibility, when there is nothing whatsoever that leads one to
conclude it.
You appear to see spirituality as illogical, yet you also appear to
embrace it.
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| User: "raven1" |
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| Title: Re: The only true freethinkers are agnostic freethinkers. |
20 Apr 2007 03:47:56 PM |
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On 20 Apr 2007 05:35:11 -0700, V <vfr44@aol.com> wrote:
No, egocentricity is not good for spiritual work and we need to be
open to others ideas and embrace them as nourishment for your growth
and sustenance for life - as no one person is God.
Still absolutely no sense of self-awareness, I see...
--
"O Sybilli, si ergo
Fortibus es in ero
O Nobili! Themis trux
Sivat sinem? Causen Dux"
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| User: "Parsifal" |
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| Title: Re: The only true freethinkers are agnostic freethinkers. |
20 Apr 2007 08:02:14 AM |
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On 20 avr, 14:35, V <v...@aol.com> wrote:
The only true freethinkers are agnostic freethinkers.
Weren't you supposed to leave?
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| User: "Pastor Kutchie, ordained atheist minister" |
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| Title: Re: The only true freethinkers are agnostic freethinkers. |
20 Apr 2007 07:43:57 AM |
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On Apr 20, 1:35 pm, V <v...@aol.com> wrote:
The only true freethinkers are agnostic freethinkers.
That is the beauty of being a freethinker. We can think for
ourselves.
As such, when we get a toolbox we can decide which tools to use for
the job. Some tools are used a lot, other tools are left alone for the
time being, and still others are trashed when we see they are broken
and useless.
You're missing a box labelled "rational judgement" and another
labelled "human cognition". Clearly you weren't issued with these, and
it is now too late for you to obtain them. I suggest that you become a
complete recluse. This entails you disposing of your modem.
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: The only true freethinkers are agnostic freethinkers. |
20 Apr 2007 01:40:15 PM |
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On Apr 20, 8:35 am, V <v...@aol.com> wrote:
The only true freethinkers are agnostic freethinkers.
***** and brass knuckles. Agnostics are the politicians of the
religous debate; ***** or get off the pot, for *****'s sake.
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| User: "The Chief Instigator" |
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| Title: Re: The only true freethinkers are agnostic freethinkers. |
20 Apr 2007 11:21:44 AM |
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V <vfr44@aol.com> writes:
The only true freethinkers are agnostic freethinkers.
That is the beauty of being a freethinker. We can think for
ourselves.
*yawn*
Wake us up, if you ever manage to do that.
--
Patrick "The Chief Instigator" Humphrey (patrick@io.com) Houston, Texas
chiefinstigator.us.tt/aeros.php (TCI's 2006-07 Houston Aeros) AA#2273
LAST GAME: San Antonio 4, Houston 2 (April 15)
NEXT GAME: October 2007, date/place/opponent TBA
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| User: "Lisbeth Andersson" |
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| Title: Re: The only true freethinkers are agnostic freethinkers. |
20 Apr 2007 12:16:13 PM |
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V <vfr44@aol.com> wrote in news:1177072511.052592.110000
@o5g2000hsb.googlegroups.com:
The only true freethinkers are agnostic freethinkers.
That is the beauty of being a freethinker. We can think for
ourselves.
<ususl mega-snip>
Have you considered becoming a freewriter instead? You know, you could
actually write a post yourself for a change. This recycled stuff does
not convince anybody that there is any thought behind it.
Lisbeth.
----
The day I don't learn anything new is the day I die.
*What we know is not nearly as interesting as *how we know it.
--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com
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| User: "Lucifer" |
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| Title: Re: The only true freethinkers are agnostic freethinkers. |
20 Apr 2007 12:55:22 PM |
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V, you are simply a non thinker.
--
Lucifer the Unsubtle, EAC Librarian of Dark Tomes of Excessive Evil
and General Purpose Igor
The Anti-Theist, BAAWA Lowly Evilmeister and tamer of the Demon Duck
of Doom
Convicted by Earthquack
"Don't worry, I won't bite.......hard"
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