| Topic: |
Religions > Atheism |
| User: |
"JTEM" |
| Date: |
28 Aug 2006 07:02:50 PM |
| Object: |
The other atheism |
I posted this to another group some time ago,
without so much as a nibble. I wonder if the
fact that it was a Christian newsgroup had
anything to do with it?
Opus Dei of The de Vinci Code fame.
-> Pope Joan.
-> Various theories on "ancient knowledge" hidden
or destroyed by the Vatican.
Tens, if not hundreds of millions of people clearly
have no difficulty believing some conspiracy
theory involving the Catholic church hiding
secrets. I'll tell you why the concept is so
popular, why so many find it easy to believe,
but you're not going to like the answer.
It's a classic case of projection, what I'm told
is more accurately called "transference," where
people transfer something from themselves to
others.
It's like the stereotypical card cheat, always
watching out for & accusing everybody else
of cheating. The reason why he does this is
because he knows it's not an honest game,
that someone really is cheating (because he's
the one doing it), but because he thinks it's
bad he "transfers" this dishonesty to the other
players.
Okay, so if millions & millions of people find
it so easy to believe there's a Catholic conspiracy
to hide secrets because they're transfering their
own guilt to the church, what is the secret that
they're all hiding? And is it even possible that so
many people could be hiding the same secret?
The answer is so easy & so obvious you'll be
ebarrassed for asking: They're hiding their own
doubts concerning the existance of God!
Seriously, people, half or more of "Christianity"
is simply going along for the ride, waiting
(at some level demanding) that the Catholic
church call a halt to all the nonsesne by
announcing that there is no God, and that John
Paul II died laughing himself silly over all the
gullible people who couldn't figure it out.
And if any Christians are offended by my
pointing this out, just imagine how some of the
self-described atheists feel... the ones who
are just as eager to leap on Pope Joan, Opus
Dei and killer albinos (hi, maff!).
.
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| User: "quibbler" |
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| Title: Re: The other atheism |
29 Aug 2006 07:51:56 AM |
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In article <1156809769.989659.223780@74g2000cwt.googlegroups.com>,
jtem01@gmail.com says...
Tens, if not hundreds of millions of people clearly
have no difficulty believing some conspiracy
theory involving the Catholic church hiding
secrets. I'll tell you why the concept is so
popular, why so many find it easy to believe,
I'll save you the trouble. First of all, avoid thinking that there are
single causes. There are many reasons that people might distrust the
Catholic church, not the least of which is its long history of dishonesty
and many bonafide coverups, from child sex scandals, to scandalous
behavior by popes.
And if any Christians are offended by my
pointing this out, just imagine how some of the
self-described atheists feel... the ones who
are just as eager to leap on Pope Joan,
I'm not sure what that's supposed to feel like. Naturally, the Catholic
church denies that it ever had a female pope (though it's clearly had
some men so effeminate that they might as well be women). However, it
seems that a reasonable case can be made that pope Joan was real and now
they have to check up the pope's skirt before he is installed to make
sure that he's not a tranny.
--
Quibbler (quibbler247atyahoo.com)
"It is fashionable to wax apocalyptic about the
threat to humanity posed by the AIDS virus, 'mad cow'
disease, and many others, but I think a case can be
made that faith is one of the world's great evils,
comparable to the smallpox virus but harder to
eradicate." -- Richard Dawkins
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| User: "JTEM" |
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| Title: Re: The other atheism |
29 Aug 2006 01:23:17 PM |
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quibbler wrote:
However, it seems that a reasonable case can be
made that pope Joan was real
You'd have to stretch the definition of "Reasonable"
until it snapped.
and now they have to check up the pope's skirt
before he is installed to make sure that he's not
a tranny.
Interestingly, although the usual claim is that this
inspection took place for almost 600 years, the
earliest record dates to the 15th century, almost
600 years AFTER the supposed time of "Pope
Joan."
But that's okay, because the earliest recorded mention
of a female Pope giving birth in public dates to some
400 years after it was supposed to happen.
I mean, come on! This "Pope Joan" thing is up there
with biblical claims!
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| User: "Hatter" |
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| Title: Re: The other atheism |
29 Aug 2006 07:27:50 AM |
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JTEM wrote:
I posted this to another group some time ago,
without so much as a nibble. I wonder if the
fact that it was a Christian newsgroup had
anything to do with it?
Opus Dei of The de Vinci Code fame.
-> Pope Joan.
-> Various theories on "ancient knowledge" hidden
or destroyed by the Vatican.
Tens, if not hundreds of millions of people clearly
have no difficulty believing some conspiracy
theory involving the Catholic church hiding
secrets. I'll tell you why the concept is so
popular, why so many find it easy to believe,
but you're not going to like the answer.
I disagree. It is a few completely different reasons.
(1)Because of protestant distrust and rumor spreading, a cultural meme
of the Catholic Church being less than trustworthy has long been
established as a background thought in western literature.
(2)The Catholic Church was clearly involved in wrongdoings and
conspiracies during the Borgia era, The avingon Papacy, and the
excesses of indulgences
(3)Archeological Evidence and even church evidence of eliminating
gospels denying some writing during the Council of Nicea
(4)Warring against herecies and the destruction of the Gnostics
If this is the cultural heritage you have...one of known conspiracies
and surpession of information and competeing creeds...it should be no
shock that people would believe there are even more items that haven't
made it to the public eye.
Seriously, people, half or more of "Christianity"
is simply going along for the ride, waiting
(at some level demanding) that the Catholic
church call a halt to all the nonsesne by
announcing that there is no God, and that John
Paul II died laughing himself silly over all the
gullible people who couldn't figure it out.
I double doubt that. A mythic tradition with those kind of roots is
very likely to believe its own lies. I also doubt that "Christianity"
is waiting for a church to say there is no God when most of them are
unwilling to do so themselves.
Hatter
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| User: "JTEM" |
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| Title: Re: The other atheism |
29 Aug 2006 12:55:44 PM |
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Hatter wrote:
JTEM wrote:
Tens, if not hundreds of millions of people clearly
have no difficulty believing some conspiracy
theory involving the Catholic church hiding
secrets. I'll tell you why the concept is so
popular, why so many find it easy to believe,
but you're not going to like the answer.
I disagree. It is a few completely different reasons.
Okay.
(1)Because of protestant distrust and rumor spreading,
a cultural meme of the Catholic Church being less than
trustworthy has long been established as a background
thought in western literature.
I can buy that.
(2)The Catholic Church was clearly involved in
wrongdoings and conspiracies during the Borgia era,
The avingon Papacy, and the excesses of indulgences
Laying the pre-Reformation crimes solely on the Catholics
today is a cowardly dodge, not an excuse. Besides, most
of the so-called "sins" would qualify under you (1), above,
as they were more rumor than fact.
And, hey, indulgences never stopped. They simply took
on a new form.
(3)Archeological Evidence and even church evidence
of eliminating gospels denying some writing during the
Council of Nicea
You have to know this is ***** for two reasons. I'll
give the less obvious reason first:
SOME writings? Please. There were more than enough
to fill an entire second bible. Many were never lost. The
Protestants never included any of these themselves.
Secondly, the Catholic bible contains more books than
the Protestant bible.
(4)Warring against herecies and the destruction of the
Gnostics
Oh, come on! Like the Protestants were Joe Cool on a
stick.
If this is the cultural heritage you have...
All Europeans have.
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| User: "Hatter" |
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| Title: Re: The other atheism |
30 Aug 2006 07:51:54 AM |
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JTEM wrote:
Hatter wrote:
JTEM wrote:
Tens, if not hundreds of millions of people clearly
have no difficulty believing some conspiracy
theory involving the Catholic church hiding
secrets. I'll tell you why the concept is so
popular, why so many find it easy to believe,
but you're not going to like the answer.
I disagree. It is a few completely different reasons.
Okay.
(1)Because of protestant distrust and rumor spreading,
a cultural meme of the Catholic Church being less than
trustworthy has long been established as a background
thought in western literature.
I can buy that.
(2)The Catholic Church was clearly involved in
wrongdoings and conspiracies during the Borgia era,
The avingon Papacy, and the excesses of indulgences
Laying the pre-Reformation crimes solely on the Catholics
today is a cowardly dodge, not an excuse. Besides, most
of the so-called "sins" would qualify under you (1), above,
as they were more rumor than fact.
And, hey, indulgences never stopped. They simply took
on a new form.
(3)Archeological Evidence and even church evidence
of eliminating gospels denying some writing during the
Council of Nicea
You have to know this is ***** for two reasons. I'll
give the less obvious reason first:
SOME writings? Please. There were more than enough
to fill an entire second bible. Many were never lost. The
Protestants never included any of these themselves.
Secondly, the Catholic bible contains more books than
the Protestant bible.
(4)Warring against herecies and the destruction of the
Gnostics
Oh, come on! Like the Protestants were Joe Cool on a
stick.
If this is the cultural heritage you have...
All Europeans have.
Just pointing out protestants have been ignoramuses, death dealers, and
liars doesn't invalidate the reasons why people expect conspiracies out
of the catholic church. Also, since the Church is one organization...it
makes it a lot harder to pull a "No true Scottsman" when it comes to
wrongdoings.
Hatter
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: The other atheism |
30 Aug 2006 05:34:19 PM |
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JTEM wrote:
Hatter wrote:
JTEM wrote:
Tens, if not hundreds of millions of people clearly
have no difficulty believing some conspiracy
theory involving the Catholic church hiding
secrets. I'll tell you why the concept is so
popular, why so many find it easy to believe,
but you're not going to like the answer.
I disagree. It is a few completely different reasons.
(1)Because of protestant distrust and rumor spreading,
a cultural meme of the Catholic Church being less than
trustworthy has long been established as a background
thought in western literature.
I can buy that.
(2)The Catholic Church was clearly involved in
wrongdoings and conspiracies during the Borgia era,
The Avignon Papacy, and the excesses of indulgences
Laying the pre-Reformation crimes solely on the Catholics
today is a cowardly dodge, not an excuse.
Um. This is a bit forced, surely? the reformation took place as a
reaction to those evils. It would be strange to assert that Savonarola
was responsible for the Borgias! The reformers rejected all this; the
counter-reformation came up with arguments that it wasn't actually that
bad.
(3)Archeological Evidence and even church evidence
of eliminating gospels denying some writing during the
Council of Nicea
You have to know this is ***** for two reasons.
The Council of Nicaea made no statements whatever about the canon of
scripture. The idea that it did is a myth -- sorry.
The church -- not the RCC -- refused to be hoodwinked by fake gospels
invented to deceive. I don't know of any reason why I should accept
fake banknotes, or that the church should accept forged gospels; and I
don't honestly believe that mistrust of Catholics has anything to do
with this.
(4)Warring against herecies and the destruction of the
Gnostics
Oh, come on! Like the Protestants were Joe Cool on a
stick.
The facts here appear dubious to me. Who precisely says that the early
church was obliged not to defend itself against fraud?
An age that has people arrested, beaten-up, or hounded to death for
"racism", "homophobia", etc etc has nothing to say to anyone on this
subject, I would have thought.
All the best,
Roger Pearse
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| User: "Chris H. Fleming" |
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| Title: Re: The other atheism |
28 Aug 2006 10:47:27 PM |
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JTEM wrote:
I posted this to another group some time ago,
without so much as a nibble. I wonder if the
fact that it was a Christian newsgroup had
anything to do with it?
Opus Dei of The de Vinci Code fame.
-> Pope Joan.
-> Various theories on "ancient knowledge" hidden
or destroyed by the Vatican.
Tens, if not hundreds of millions of people clearly
have no difficulty believing some conspiracy
theory involving the Catholic church hiding
secrets. I'll tell you why the concept is so
popular, why so many find it easy to believe,
but you're not going to like the answer.
It's a classic case of projection, what I'm told
is more accurately called "transference," where
people transfer something from themselves to
others.
It's like the stereotypical card cheat, always
watching out for & accusing everybody else
of cheating. The reason why he does this is
because he knows it's not an honest game,
that someone really is cheating (because he's
the one doing it), but because he thinks it's
bad he "transfers" this dishonesty to the other
players.
Okay, so if millions & millions of people find
it so easy to believe there's a Catholic conspiracy
to hide secrets because they're transfering their
own guilt to the church, what is the secret that
they're all hiding? And is it even possible that so
many people could be hiding the same secret?
The answer is so easy & so obvious you'll be
ebarrassed for asking: They're hiding their own
doubts concerning the existance of God!
Seriously, people, half or more of "Christianity"
is simply going along for the ride, waiting
(at some level demanding) that the Catholic
church call a halt to all the nonsesne by
announcing that there is no God, and that John
Paul II died laughing himself silly over all the
gullible people who couldn't figure it out.
And if any Christians are offended by my
pointing this out, just imagine how some of the
self-described atheists feel... the ones who
are just as eager to leap on Pope Joan, Opus
Dei and killer albinos (hi, maff!).
I've never read it but does the Da Vinci code imply that Jesus is not
God?
If the adherent were to experience transference of their doubt
(conscious or subconscious) of God onto the Catholic Church, then that
would fit with the Church covering up a secret that would prove Jesus
was not Devine. Otherwise I don't think that would be a transference of
doubt at all.
I was under the impression that the Da Vinci code was about a Catholic
conspiracy to keep women out of power and repress sexuality... which
makes much more sense to me.
.
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| User: "JTEM" |
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| Title: Re: The other atheism |
28 Aug 2006 11:32:08 PM |
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Chris H. Fleming wrote:
I've never read it but does the Da Vinci code
imply that Jesus is not God?
I've never read it either.
If the adherent were to experience transference of
their doubt (conscious or subconscious) of God
onto the Catholic Church, then that would fit with
the Church covering up a secret that would prove
Jesus was not Devine. Otherwise I don't think that
would be a transference of doubt at all.
You're trying to be logical, while I'm talking about
people.
I never limited myself to the Da Vinci Code nonsense.
I simply raised it as an easly recognizable example.
Another example raised was the "Pope Joan" myth.
There are others. Here on usenet I've read of all kinds
of Vatican conspiracies to conceal everything from
secret records & gospels that "prove" (fill in the blank)
to the treasures of the Jewish temple sacked by Rome.
HINT: There is more than one way to cheat at cards.
Your interpretation would be analogous to claiming that
a card cheat who used a marked deck must be limited
in transfering his guilt to the suspicion that everyone
else was using a marked deck. I'd say that cheating is
cheating, and such a card thief would be looking for
other methods as well.... other "Secrets."
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