"Precision" <precision@usenet.com> wrote in message
news:1187337395_1153@sp6iad.superfeed.net...

Many on this atheism newsgroup will say the perfect religion is no
religion at all.

Suppose you had to provide an alternate description of the perfect
religion?

Let's complete the sentence "The perfect religion is . . ."

an oxymoron.

Nothing is perfect.
There are some things in life though that are better,
and some things in life that are worse.

1. It is better to repect most,
but worse to worship any.
2. It is better to allow anyone to speak his mind
but it is worse to think all minds are sane.
3. It is better to study everything in the universe
but it is worse to think you know it all.
4. It is better to tell the truth
but it is worse to think the thruth is what you personally favor.
5. It is better to practice compassion to all
but it is worse to think all have compassion for you
6. It is better to act moral
but it is worse to think anyone is an authority on morality
7. It is better to know the truth
but it is worse to think torturered people will speak it.
8. It is better to live in peace
but it is worse not to fight agression.
9. It is better to be able to count
but it is worse to always count to 10.

Peter van Velzen
August 2007
Amstelveen
The Netherlands

On Aug 17, 12:58 am, "Precision" <precis...@usenet.com> wrote:

Many on this atheism newsgroup will say the perfect religion is no
religion
at all.

Suppose you had to provide an alternate description of the perfect
religion?

What, you're holding a gun to my head?

Let's complete the sentence "The perfect religion is . . ."

Nonexistent. Theism is a viral meme.

I'll start with a 10 items that I believe constitutes the perfect
religion:

<Snippage>

Now what is your concept of the perfect religion if you as an atheist
were
compelled to come up with this? Suppose that instead of eliminating
religion, you had the power to define it in a manner you could live with
and
coexist with?

The perfect religion would be one where theists could adequately
define their god/gods and provide testable evidence that this god/gods
actually exist. Having demonstrated that the god/gods in question
exist, the perfect religion would present no holy writ or scripture
without objective, testable evidence that it came from this god/gods,
and such scripture would be wholly consistent with reality as we know
it and internally consistent with itself. Furthermore, the followers
of this perfect religion would not attempt to interpret this scripture
in any way, shape, or form, and if others chose not to follow the
precepts of the god/gods given in the scripture, the believers would
leave them the ***** alone.

The reason I ask is because I am trying to understand where atheists are
coming from.

That's easy. We're coming from the place that says "define your god/
gods clearly and provide evidence that any god exists."

So far no theist has ever been able to do either thing.

And to prove it to you, I'm willing to admit that I'm reading
the book 'Philosophers Without Gods--Meditations on Atheism and the
Secular
Life' by Louise M. Antony (ISBN 9780195173079; Oxford University Press).

Bravo.

Now
why would any ardent theist read such a book if they were not sincerely
interested in being involved with the 'perfect' religion (assuming that
nothing in this world is really 100% perfect, so I mean by the 'perfect'
religion as anything you believe is attainable by people inclined to
theism
in this day and age).

Because s/he is an atheist-in-training?

As a side note, I find it frustrating that theists cannot constructively
communicate with atheists and visa versa. Wouldn't an ideal world be a
place
where people could coexist without regard to ideologies, religions,
politics
or worldviews?

And we'd be perfectly willing to do that, if theists of various
flavors did not try to impose their ideology on us using law, force,
coercion, suicide bombs, or flying planes into buildings, and if they
would not invade atheist newsgroups and try to convert us.

I can also tell you in advance, if asked to turn around and quid pro quo
and
for those who hesitate to answer without gratis and expectation of quid
pro
quo:

1. The perfect atheist respects everybody's right to believe as they
choose
and does not consider theists as somehow inferior in their capacity to
reason or think for themselves.

Well, you lose. People who believe things having no evidence to
support them are at the very least mentally lazy, if not mentally
deficient, and are not deserving of respect. Simply believing what
you're taught, without attempts to verify it's factuality is a
character flaw. It's hard for us not to feel that such people (who
are lazy, or weak, or incompetent) are inferior and are therefore not
worthy of respect.

The fact is, we don't respect faith, or people who hold religious
beliefs, and we don't *have* to. Here in 'Merica, at least, all we're
required to do is respect the *right to hold* a belief - and the vast
majority of us *do*.

3. The perfect atheist recognizes the dictionary definition of 'agnostic'
is
probably a closer description of their position as to God, except that
unlike true agnostics the atheist may have a strong opinion that for all
intensive purposes GOD DOES NOT EXIST.

Another thing the "perfect theist" wouldn't do is try to define other
people's beliefs.

Atheists are merely people who lack a belief in any god/gods. That's
called "weak atheism," and is quite compatible with agnosticism.

Atheists who actively believe that NO GOD OR GODS EXIST (including
yours) are called "strong atheists." Most of us don't hold that
position officially, although we live our day-to-day lives as though
NO GOD OR GODS EXIST.

See the difference? One is a philosophical stance. One is a
practical stance.

4. The perfect atheist believes that believing in God is a very personal
matter, respectfully supports the freedom of theists to share their
beliefs
only when invited to do so, and is willing to defend the human rights of
theists who do not obnoxiously shove their belief in God down other
people's
throats.

Although I think this whole "perfect atheist" thing is perfectly
silly, I agree with most of #4.

5. The perfect atheist consists of those who unconditionally love their
neighbor even if that neighbor is a theist.

That's just silly. Unconditional love is what your dog has for you.
Humans base their feelings of "love" on qualities exhibited by the
loved one. If my neighbor is an obnoxious *****, I'm not going to
"love" her, whether she's a theist or not.

I have positive fellow-feelings for people who try to be nice and
behave properly, whether they are theists or atheists. However, I see
no reason why I should "unconditionally love" anybody. That's a
religious concept - and one which is impossible to fulfill, IMHO.

6. The perfect atheist consists of those who have confidence that the
universe is really NOT created by God, but would welcome God if (A) God
was
proven beyond any scientific shadow of doubt to exist; and (B) provided
this
God does not engage in torturing or murdering those who do not believe he
exists.

Our stance has always been, "Got evidence any god exists? If so,
we'll talk." That's not news.

7. The perfect atheist consists of those who recognize that if the
universe
is really created by God, that one of these days God will prove he exists
to
them, and not penalize them in the interim for not exercising blind faith
in
a God they cannot prove exists.

As has been pointed out may times on this newsgroup by people smarter
than me, *if* there really is any god, and *if* s/he wants me to
"believe in" her/him, then s/he knows *exactly* what to do to convince
me that s/he actually exists. If that evidence is not forthcoming, I
can only assume one of two things: that some god/gods exist but don't
*care* if I "believe in" them or not; or, there are no god/gods.

8. The perfect atheist not only knows that belief in God and morality
have
no correlation, but that incorrigibly evil people come from both atheist
and
theist ranks -- including atheists who hate the very concept of God and
might oppose a God even if proven to exist, all the way to the other end
of
the spectrum of those who ardently wish God existed. They also recognize
there are insane theists who hate God and claim to side with the forces
of
darkness, and yet amazingly good and selfless people who care about the
welfare of others with no expectation of reward come from both the ranks
of
atheist and theist alike.

Yes, I suppose.

9. The perfect atheist takes the lead along side the perfect theist in
working together towards world peace, eradicating the sources of poverty
and
working with environmentalists toward a pristine ecological future for
Earth.

No problem with that.

10. The perfect atheist does NOT believe the world would be better
without
theists because they recognize that freedom to believe and NOT to believe
is
the hallmark of a free society.

No, we believe the world would be better without THEISM, because
theism is belief in something with no supporting evidence. People who
practice theism have a character flaw - gullibility, or the
willingness/ability to believe in something that's preposterous and
has no supporting data. That's a character flaw, and such people hold
back the moral and scientific progress of the human race.

What's this "perfect atheist" nonsense about, anyway? Atheism isn't a
philosophy that produces "perfect" people, it's just a lack of belief
in gods. Get it?

Brenda Nelson, A.A.#34
EAC Professor of Feline Thermometrics and Cat-Herding
skyeyes at dakotacom dot net

On Aug 17, 12:58 am, "Precision" <precis...@usenet.com> wrote:

Many on this atheism newsgroup will say the perfect religion is no

at all.

Suppose you had to provide an alternate description of the perfect

What, you're holding a gun to my head?

Let's complete the sentence "The perfect religion is . . ."

Nonexistent. Theism is a viral meme.

I'll start with a 10 items that I believe constitutes the perfect

<Snippage>

Now what is your concept of the perfect religion if you as an atheist

compelled to come up with this? Suppose that instead of eliminating
religion, you had the power to define it in a manner you could live with

coexist with?

The perfect religion would be one where theists could adequately
define their god/gods and provide testable evidence that this god/gods
actually exist. Having demonstrated that the god/gods in question
exist, the perfect religion would present no holy writ or scripture
without objective, testable evidence that it came from this god/gods,
and such scripture would be wholly consistent with reality as we know
it and internally consistent with itself. Furthermore, the followers
of this perfect religion would not attempt to interpret this scripture
in any way, shape, or form, and if others chose not to follow the
precepts of the god/gods given in the scripture, the believers would
leave them the ***** alone.

The reason I ask is because I am trying to understand where atheists are
coming from.

That's easy. We're coming from the place that says "define your god/
gods clearly and provide evidence that any god exists."

So far no theist has ever been able to do either thing.

And to prove it to you, I'm willing to admit that I'm reading
the book 'Philosophers Without Gods--Meditations on Atheism and the

Life' by Louise M. Antony (ISBN 9780195173079; Oxford University Press).

Bravo.

Now
why would any ardent theist read such a book if they were not sincerely
interested in being involved with the 'perfect' religion (assuming that
nothing in this world is really 100% perfect, so I mean by the 'perfect'
religion as anything you believe is attainable by people inclined to

in this day and age).

Because s/he is an atheist-in-training?

As a side note, I find it frustrating that theists cannot constructively
communicate with atheists and visa versa. Wouldn't an ideal world be a

where people could coexist without regard to ideologies, religions,

or worldviews?

And we'd be perfectly willing to do that, if theists of various
flavors did not try to impose their ideology on us using law, force,
coercion, suicide bombs, or flying planes into buildings, and if they
would not invade atheist newsgroups and try to convert us.

I can also tell you in advance, if asked to turn around and quid pro quo

for those who hesitate to answer without gratis and expectation of quid

quo:

1. The perfect atheist respects everybody's right to believe as they

and does not consider theists as somehow inferior in their capacity to
reason or think for themselves.

Well, you lose. People who believe things having no evidence to
support them are at the very least mentally lazy, if not mentally
deficient, and are not deserving of respect. Simply believing what
you're taught, without attempts to verify it's factuality is a
character flaw. It's hard for us not to feel that such people (who
are lazy, or weak, or incompetent) are inferior and are therefore not
worthy of respect.

The fact is, we don't respect faith, or people who hold religious
beliefs, and we don't *have* to. Here in 'Merica, at least, all we're
required to do is respect the *right to hold* a belief - and the vast
majority of us *do*.

3. The perfect atheist recognizes the dictionary definition of

probably a closer description of their position as to God, except that
unlike true agnostics the atheist may have a strong opinion that for all
intensive purposes GOD DOES NOT EXIST.

Another thing the "perfect theist" wouldn't do is try to define other
people's beliefs.

Atheists are merely people who lack a belief in any god/gods. That's
called "weak atheism," and is quite compatible with agnosticism.

Atheists who actively believe that NO GOD OR GODS EXIST (including
yours) are called "strong atheists." Most of us don't hold that
position officially, although we live our day-to-day lives as though
NO GOD OR GODS EXIST.

See the difference? One is a philosophical stance. One is a
practical stance.

4. The perfect atheist believes that believing in God is a very personal
matter, respectfully supports the freedom of theists to share their

only when invited to do so, and is willing to defend the human rights of
theists who do not obnoxiously shove their belief in God down other

throats.

Although I think this whole "perfect atheist" thing is perfectly
silly, I agree with most of #4.

5. The perfect atheist consists of those who unconditionally love their
neighbor even if that neighbor is a theist.

That's just silly. Unconditional love is what your dog has for you.
Humans base their feelings of "love" on qualities exhibited by the
loved one. If my neighbor is an obnoxious *****, I'm not going to
"love" her, whether she's a theist or not.

I have positive fellow-feelings for people who try to be nice and
behave properly, whether they are theists or atheists. However, I see
no reason why I should "unconditionally love" anybody. That's a
religious concept - and one which is impossible to fulfill, IMHO.

6. The perfect atheist consists of those who have confidence that the
universe is really NOT created by God, but would welcome God if (A) God

proven beyond any scientific shadow of doubt to exist; and (B) provided

God does not engage in torturing or murdering those who do not believe

exists.

Our stance has always been, "Got evidence any god exists? If so,
we'll talk." That's not news.

7. The perfect atheist consists of those who recognize that if the

is really created by God, that one of these days God will prove he

them, and not penalize them in the interim for not exercising blind

a God they cannot prove exists.

As has been pointed out may times on this newsgroup by people smarter
than me, *if* there really is any god, and *if* s/he wants me to
"believe in" her/him, then s/he knows *exactly* what to do to convince
me that s/he actually exists. If that evidence is not forthcoming, I
can only assume one of two things: that some god/gods exist but don't
*care* if I "believe in" them or not; or, there are no god/gods.

8. The perfect atheist not only knows that belief in God and morality

no correlation, but that incorrigibly evil people come from both atheist

theist ranks -- including atheists who hate the very concept of God and
might oppose a God even if proven to exist, all the way to the other end

the spectrum of those who ardently wish God existed. They also recognize
there are insane theists who hate God and claim to side with the forces

darkness, and yet amazingly good and selfless people who care about the
welfare of others with no expectation of reward come from both the ranks

atheist and theist alike.

Yes, I suppose.

9. The perfect atheist takes the lead along side the perfect theist in
working together towards world peace, eradicating the sources of poverty

working with environmentalists toward a pristine ecological future for
Earth.

No problem with that.

10. The perfect atheist does NOT believe the world would be better

theists because they recognize that freedom to believe and NOT to

the hallmark of a free society.

No, we believe the world would be better without THEISM, because
theism is belief in something with no supporting evidence. People who
practice theism have a character flaw - gullibility, or the
willingness/ability to believe in something that's preposterous and
has no supporting data. That's a character flaw, and such people hold
back the moral and scientific progress of the human race.

What's this "perfect atheist" nonsense about, anyway? Atheism isn't a
philosophy that produces "perfect" people, it's just a lack of belief
in gods. Get it?

Brenda Nelson, A.A.#34
EAC Professor of Feline Thermometrics and Cat-Herding
skyeyes at dakotacom dot net

On Aug 17, 12:58 am, "Precision" <precis...@usenet.com> wrote:

Many on this atheism newsgroup will say the perfect religion is no religion
at all.

Suppose you had to provide an alternate description of the perfect religion?

What, you're holding a gun to my head?

Let's complete the sentence "The perfect religion is . . ."

Nonexistent. Theism is a viral meme.

I'll start with a 10 items that I believe constitutes the perfect religion:

<Snippage>

Now what is your concept of the perfect religion if you as an atheist were
compelled to come up with this? Suppose that instead of eliminating
religion, you had the power to define it in a manner you could live with and
coexist with?

The perfect religion would be one where theists could adequately
define their god/gods and provide testable evidence that this god/gods
actually exist. Having demonstrated that the god/gods in question
exist, the perfect religion would present no holy writ or scripture
without objective, testable evidence that it came from this god/gods,
and such scripture would be wholly consistent with reality as we know
it and internally consistent with itself. Furthermore, the followers
of this perfect religion would not attempt to interpret this scripture
in any way, shape, or form, and if others chose not to follow the
precepts of the god/gods given in the scripture, the believers would
leave them the ***** alone.

The reason I ask is because I am trying to understand where atheists are
coming from.

That's easy. We're coming from the place that says "define your god/
gods clearly and provide evidence that any god exists."

So far no theist has ever been able to do either thing.

And to prove it to you, I'm willing to admit that I'm reading
the book 'Philosophers Without Gods--Meditations on Atheism and the Secular
Life' by Louise M. Antony (ISBN 9780195173079; Oxford University Press).

Bravo.

Now
why would any ardent theist read such a book if they were not sincerely
interested in being involved with the 'perfect' religion (assuming that
nothing in this world is really 100% perfect, so I mean by the 'perfect'
religion as anything you believe is attainable by people inclined to theism
in this day and age).

Because s/he is an atheist-in-training?

As a side note, I find it frustrating that theists cannot constructively
communicate with atheists and visa versa. Wouldn't an ideal world be a place
where people could coexist without regard to ideologies, religions, politics
or worldviews?

And we'd be perfectly willing to do that, if theists of various
flavors did not try to impose their ideology on us using law, force,
coercion, suicide bombs, or flying planes into buildings, and if they
would not invade atheist newsgroups and try to convert us.

I can also tell you in advance, if asked to turn around and quid pro quo and
for those who hesitate to answer without gratis and expectation of quid pro
quo:

1. The perfect atheist respects everybody's right to believe as they choose
and does not consider theists as somehow inferior in their capacity to
reason or think for themselves.

Well, you lose. People who believe things having no evidence to
support them are at the very least mentally lazy, if not mentally
deficient, and are not deserving of respect. Simply believing what
you're taught, without attempts to verify it's factuality is a
character flaw. It's hard for us not to feel that such people (who
are lazy, or weak, or incompetent) are inferior and are therefore not
worthy of respect.

The fact is, we don't respect faith, or people who hold religious
beliefs, and we don't *have* to. Here in 'Merica, at least, all we're
required to do is respect the *right to hold* a belief - and the vast
majority of us *do*.

3. The perfect atheist recognizes the dictionary definition of 'agnostic' is
probably a closer description of their position as to God, except that
unlike true agnostics the atheist may have a strong opinion that for all
intensive purposes GOD DOES NOT EXIST.

Another thing the "perfect theist" wouldn't do is try to define other
people's beliefs.

Atheists are merely people who lack a belief in any god/gods. That's
called "weak atheism," and is quite compatible with agnosticism.

Atheists who actively believe that NO GOD OR GODS EXIST (including
yours) are called "strong atheists." Most of us don't hold that
position officially, although we live our day-to-day lives as though
NO GOD OR GODS EXIST.

See the difference? One is a philosophical stance. One is a
practical stance.

4. The perfect atheist believes that believing in God is a very personal
matter, respectfully supports the freedom of theists to share their beliefs
only when invited to do so, and is willing to defend the human rights of
theists who do not obnoxiously shove their belief in God down other people's
throats.

Although I think this whole "perfect atheist" thing is perfectly
silly, I agree with most of #4.

5. The perfect atheist consists of those who unconditionally love their
neighbor even if that neighbor is a theist.

That's just silly. Unconditional love is what your dog has for you.
Humans base their feelings of "love" on qualities exhibited by the
loved one. If my neighbor is an obnoxious *****, I'm not going to
"love" her, whether she's a theist or not.

I have positive fellow-feelings for people who try to be nice and
behave properly, whether they are theists or atheists. However, I see
no reason why I should "unconditionally love" anybody. That's a
religious concept - and one which is impossible to fulfill, IMHO.

6. The perfect atheist consists of those who have confidence that the
universe is really NOT created by God, but would welcome God if (A) God was
proven beyond any scientific shadow of doubt to exist; and (B) provided this
God does not engage in torturing or murdering those who do not believe he
exists.

Our stance has always been, "Got evidence any god exists? If so,
we'll talk." That's not news.

7. The perfect atheist consists of those who recognize that if the universe
is really created by God, that one of these days God will prove he exists to
them, and not penalize them in the interim for not exercising blind faith in
a God they cannot prove exists.

As has been pointed out may times on this newsgroup by people smarter
than me, *if* there really is any god, and *if* s/he wants me to
"believe in" her/him, then s/he knows *exactly* what to do to convince
me that s/he actually exists. If that evidence is not forthcoming, I
can only assume one of two things: that some god/gods exist but don't
*care* if I "believe in" them or not; or, there are no god/gods.

8. The perfect atheist not only knows that belief in God and morality have
no correlation, but that incorrigibly evil people come from both atheist and
theist ranks -- including atheists who hate the very concept of God and
might oppose a God even if proven to exist, all the way to the other end of
the spectrum of those who ardently wish God existed. They also recognize
there are insane theists who hate God and claim to side with the forces of
darkness, and yet amazingly good and selfless people who care about the
welfare of others with no expectation of reward come from both the ranks of
atheist and theist alike.

Yes, I suppose.

9. The perfect atheist takes the lead along side the perfect theist in
working together towards world peace, eradicating the sources of poverty and
working with environmentalists toward a pristine ecological future for
Earth.

No problem with that.

10. The perfect atheist does NOT believe the world would be better without
theists because they recognize that freedom to believe and NOT to believe is
the hallmark of a free society.

No, we believe the world would be better without THEISM, because
theism is belief in something with no supporting evidence. People who
practice theism have a character flaw - gullibility, or the
willingness/ability to believe in something that's preposterous and
has no supporting data. That's a character flaw, and such people hold
back the moral and scientific progress of the human race.

What's this "perfect atheist" nonsense about, anyway? Atheism isn't a
philosophy that produces "perfect" people, it's just a lack of belief
in gods. Get it?

Brenda Nelson, A.A.#34
EAC Professor of Feline Thermometrics and Cat-Herding
skyeyes at dakotacom dot net

On Aug 17, 2:58 am, "Precision" <precis...@usenet.com> wrote:

Many on this atheism newsgroup will say the perfect religion
is no religion at all.

Dogs and cats go to heaven. Televangelists burn in hell. Religious
imbeciles languish in limbo. Atheists simply die and nourish the
plants.

On Aug 17, 3:58 am, "Precision" <precis...@usenet.com> wrote:

Many on this atheism newsgroup will say the perfect religion is no
religion
at all.

Suppose you had to provide an alternate description of the perfect
religion?

Let's complete the sentence "The perfect religion is . . ."

I'll start with a 10 items that I believe constitutes the perfect
religion:

1. The perfect religion is respects everybody's right to believe as they
choose and is not judgmental of others.

2. The perfect religion recognizes that if the universe is really created
by
God, that God does not engage in what some might consider 'petty-any
B.S.'
such as primitive and barbaric bronze age beliefs in torturing souls in a
place depicted in Dante's Inferno.

3. The perfect religion is not full of hypocrites, i.e., lying and
larcenous
televangelists that sodomize male prostitutes, as one of many examples.

4. The perfect religion believes that believing in God is a very personal
matter, respectfully shares their beliefs only when invited to do so, and
does not obnoxiously shove their belief in God down other people's
throats.

5. The perfect religion consists of believers who unconditionally love
their
neighbor even if that neighbor is an atheist.

6. The perfect religion consists of believers who have faith that if the
universe is really created by God, that God does not engage in torturing
or
murdering those who do not believe he exists.

7. The perfect religion consists of believers who have faith that if the
universe is really created by God, that one of these days God will prove
he
exists to the most ardent atheist.

8. The perfect religion recognizes that belief in God and morality have
no
correlation, in that there are incorrigibly evil people who ardently
believe
in God, and amazingly good and selfless people who care about the welfare
of
others with no expectation of reward... and conversely, they believe the
opposite is true as well.

9. The perfect religion take the lead in working towards world peace,
eradicating the sources of poverty and working with environmentalists
toward
a pristine ecological future for Earth.

10. The perfect religion practices what they and their Bible preaches
without expectation of reward, and without believing they are superior to
those who do not believe in or practice any religion.

Not a bad list. But I'd add: "The perfect religion is one that
forbids its adherents from butting their noses into other peoples'
business by telling/forcing them to live by their (the theists)
beliefs.