In <6LGdncdkx92wVr7eRVn-rQ@adelphia.com>, on 09/11/05
at 12:14 AM, iraey <Iraey@somewhere.com> said:

After reading this thread I have to wonder why many who profess not to

You have read it since Message-ID: <34D0589C.DCA3E157@earthlink.net>#1/1 ,
which appears to be the original in alt.atheism then? It read :
***************************************************************** When one
prays, they give up their ability to do
anything about a given situation. They leave their
problem to be sorted out by an unseen power. They
are now free of worry. Whatever was meant to be
shall be. They cannot be held responsible for
the outcome. They no longer have to try. The god
that they pray to has so much more power than they
do, he has the knowledge and wisdom to see it all
through. Still, they pray. They pray for the safe
return of a child who is already dead. When the
child is found dead and their prayers were unanswered,
it was "god's will". Now they go on a traumatized
crusade for the rest of their lives trying to give
a purpose for their loss.


Some people turn to prayer as a last resort.
When all else fails, pray. Prayer is a calming force
to the mind. It actually helps those that can believe
in it. It lowers stress by relieving one of their
responsibility. When you "give it up to the Lord",
you're out of the picture.


Of course, what they are really doing when they pray,
is giving it up to chance. And that is the chance
without their interference.


Whenever one "prays", they are saying that "I don't know
what to do, I have no power over this situation, so I'm
leaving it up to "someone" else.
Now they are free to accept and explain the outcome,
no matter what it is.


Maynard Martin
************************************************

Or maybe you are thinking of this one:
Message-ID: <dcnu41dc4c4jerfhpohvgcvvv221neienk@4ax.com>
which went all over the place to include:
alt.religion.christian,alt.religion.christian.baptist,alt.religion.islam,alt.religion.christian.roman-catholic,alt.atheism

Or perchance this is the one you have followed so dilligently?
Message-ID: <1126424040.097157.288950@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>

which was also cross posted to:
alt.religion.christian,alt.religion.christian.baptist,alt.religion.christian.roman-catholic

believe in God make such an effort to prove he doesn't exist. If you

Two messages included, from the original, an atheist newsgroup. Prayer &
other tomfoolery are free game in an atheist news group. As to this god
thingamabob you are on about, would it be to much for you to inform the
audience. If it is the xian one, then it is not the god of Abraham, nor
the creator, so which god is it exactly you are carrying on about?

take the Christian Point your prayers are always answered how be it not
the way you wish them to be but as God see fit based on his design for

Again which god, considering the xian claim for their gods being eternal,
it helps to identify which of the four you are talking about. Then one can
discuss the qualities of that god, & if the god construct fails, which
they do due to being based on logical fallacy's, then that god can be
dismissed. OTOH, these gods can not be dismissed until they have been
examined.

Ai Apaec[Mochia] Allah[Islam] Ani[Etruscan] Anjea[Australian]
Anna Kuari[Oraon] Apacita[Inca] Aphrodisias[Carian] Apo[Inca]
Aralo[Gregorian] Aray[Armenian] Armaz[Gregorian] Aserah[Amorite]
Astar[Ethiopian] Astlik[Armenian] Astoreth[Palestinian]
Astoreth[Philistine] Attis[Phyrgian] Atua Fafine[Polynesia] Atua I
Raropuka[Polynesia] Auseklis[Latvian] Aveta[Polynesia]
Axo-Mama[first nation] Bangputys[Lituanian] Barastar[Ossetian]
Barsamin[Armenian] Boldgasszony[Hungarian} Bonchor[Berber]
Buriyas[Kassite] Caelestis[Carthaginian] Coco-Mama[first nation]
Dena[Persia] Dictynna[Cretan] Dievs[Latvian] Dipti[Hindu]
Djila'quons[Haida] dMbDud Kam-Po Sa-Zan[Bon] Dur[Kassite]
Egres[Finnish] Faivarongo[Polynesia] Fe'e[Polynesia] Gabija[Latvian]
Gabjauja[Latvian] Gad[Carthaginian] Gonaqade't[Chilkat] gSan
Sgrub[Bon] gSan-Rab[Bon] gShen-Lha-Odkhar[Bon] Haili'laj[Haida]
hala[Kassite] Hammon[Libyan] Haumiatketike[Polynesia] Hiisi[Finnish]
Hina[Polynesia] Hine-Ahu-Ohne[Polynesia] Hine-Ata-Uira[Polynesia]
Hine-Nui-Te-Po[Polynesia] Hittavainen[Finnish] Horagalles[Lappish]
Huaca[Inca] Huancauri[Inca] Huban[Elamite] Hurabtil[Elamite]
Ihoiho[Polynesia] Ilmarinen[Finnish] Ilyapa[Inca] Imana[Burundi]
Inmar[Finno-Ugric] Inti[Inca] Isten[Hungarian] Jabru[Elamite]
Jagaubis[Latvian] Jumis[Latvian] Ka'cak[Inuit] Kaltesh[Finno-Ugric]
Kane[Polynesia] Karta[Latvian] Kavara'nna[Chuckchee] Kemos[Moabite]
Kere'tkun[Chuckchee] Ketua[Ngbandi] Khadir[Roman N. African]
Kianda[Kimbundu] Knodos[Finnish] Kubaba[Anatolian] Kunto bXan Po[Bon]
Kurdaligon[Ossetian] Kuthu[Kamchadal] Ku'urkil[Chuckchee]
Kvasir[Icelandic] Kwoth[Nuer] Kybele[Phyrgian] Laima[Latvian]
Lamaria[Caucasian] Lau[Andaman Is.] Lauka Mate[Latvian]
Lendix-Tcux[Chilcotin] Loa[Caribbean] ma[Cappadocian] Mah[Persia]
Mahrem[Auxite] Mahuikez[Polynesia] Majas Gar[Latvian] Maju[Basque]
Malamanganga'e[Polynesia] malamangangafio[Polynesia] Mama-Kilya[Inca]
Mama-Qoca[Inca] Marama[Polynesia] Mari[Basque] Maui[Polynesia]
Medeine[Latvian] Meher[Armenian] Men[Phyrgian] Menechen[Araucania]
Menechen[Arucania] Mikom[Ammonite] Mirsa[Caucasian] Molek[Ammonite]
Morva[Andanman Is.] Mratna'irgin[Chuckchee] Na Ngutu
Na'chittna'irgin[Chuckchee] Nachunde[Elamite] Nana[Armenian]
Napi[Elamite] Nareu[Melenasian] Narisah[Manichaean] Nelu Mate[Latvian]
Ne'memkicex[Kamchadal] Ninsusinak[Elamite] Nu'tenut[Chuckchee]
Myrrrha[Phonecia] Ordog[Hungarian] Paca-mama[Inca] Pachacamac[First
nation] Pajainen[Finnish] Pajonn[Lappish] Papas[Phyrgian]
Papatuanuku[Polynesia] Paricaca[First nation] Pekko[Baltic} Pellon
Pekko[Finnish] Perende[Albania] Perkons[Latvian]
Picvu'cin[Chuckchee] Pinikriz[Elamite] Prende[Albania] Priapos[Phyrgian]
Pu Ma[Polynesia] Pusi[Polynesia] Quat[Polynesia] Quinoa-Mama[Peru]
Ranginui[Polynesia] Rasnu[Persia] Raudna[Lappish] Rauni[Finno-Ugric]
Rongomatane[Polynesia] Sabzios[Phyrgian] Sahar[Aramic] Sampsa[Finnish]
Sangarios[Phyrgian] Saning Sari[Javan] Saule[Latvian] Savea
Si'uleo[Polynesia] Sedna[Inuit] Shurdi[Illyrian} Sins
Sga'nagwai[Haida] Sipe Gialmo[Bon] Sipylene[Anatolian]
Sisyphos[Corinthian] Spandaramet[Armenian] Susinak[Elamite]
Svantevit[Latvian] tane(mahuta)[Polynesia] Ta'ngwannia'na[Haida]
Tapio[Finnish] Tar[Tiv] Tari Pennu[Khond] Taumata-Atua[Polynesia]
Te-Aka-Ia-Roe[Polynesia] Teharon(hiawagon)[Mohawk] Teliko[Bambara]
Teljavelik[Latvian] Te-Manava-Roa[Polynesia] Tenanto'mni[Chuckchee]
Thab-Iha[Bon] Thuremlin[Australian] Tia[Haida] Tifenua[Polynesia]
Tiki[Polynesia] Tinirau[Polynesia] Tino Taata[Polynesia] Tir[Armenian]
Ti'zil-Kutku[Kamchadal] Tnecei'vune[Chuckchee] Tne'sqan[Chuckchee]
Tomor[Illyrian] Topoh[Pokot/Suk] Tork[Armenian] Touia
Fatuna[Polynesia] Triglav[Baltic] Tunek[Inuit] Ukko[Finnish]
Usins[Latvian] vahagn[Armenian] Vaircocha[Inca] Va'irgin[Chuckchee]
Veja Mate[Latvian] Verbti[Albania] Verethragna[Persia] Waralden
olmai[Lappish] Wawiki[Inca] Wiu[Nuer] Wu[Ewe] Wu'squus[Chuckchee]
Xewioso[Ewe] Xil Sga'nagwai[Haida] Zara-Mama[first nation]
Zemepatis[Latvian] Zemyna[Latvian]

Of course you realise, that when you deny those gods & pretend that only
your god is real, you have invoked a variety of logical errors, not the
least of which would be special pleading.

you. I guess in my constant deluded state I can except that with the
understanding that I strive to and will be a better person and be with

People, of all walks of life, contain a mixture of good folks & people you
would not want to invite to diner, no gods required. However, if you have
the need of invisible support, there is no reason you should not have the
freedom to choose which one, or group even. As long as it is in the proper
forum, home, like minded individuals, out of politics, there is no
problem. Its when you drag those gods out for public admiration that you
are subject to notice, a lot of people think of you as a bit more than
foolish.

Christ in the here after. I understand that the suffering of myself and
others is inevitable because of sin and lack of faith. If you doubt the

No, you do not understand that, you accept that as true for it is part &
parcel of your myth. You overlook the gross injustice of perpetual
punishment for t at its kindest, would be called entrapment today. It is
something that is beyond understanding when thought about.

presents of sin and evil look in your paper and on your on streets. Is
the constant murder, rape and injustice not an eye opener for us all. The
lack of morality, humanity and humility are consistent with the lack of
faith and grace in this modern world. When we live for self and stand
only on self determination we leave humility and humanity behind. The
search for self justification, self gratification and self importance
leave little room for love of our brothers. Powerless prayer is the
result of powerless man. If you lack the fortitude to believe in God and
exalt him then why should he be bothered to exalt us the creatures of
this earth. A prayer without belief has little chance. I guess we should
look beyond our needs and praise God and Christ when we're not in need.
That is the true test of humanity and love. If your heart, Mind and Soul
is planted firmly in this world how can you hope to transcend to God
and ask for his help.

Now, let me sum that up for you, there is so much I can not explain that I
do not like it musty be because of sin. It can't be because of population
density & dynamics, it can only be sin. It can't be the result of the TV
being the universal baby sitter & provider of acceptable behaviour, it
must be sin. The only reason it must be sin is because you have not paid
attention to what is going on around you, & has been since th end of WWII.

Brothers look beyond yourself and you will see the love, humanity and
grace that is in you and has always been there.

& in spite of xianity, still is. That can be said for any myth BTW, its
not just xians.

walksalolne who does understand the frustration of xians, after all, they
have never examined their myth [as a group] & want to believe what they
are being told. That in spite of one of the worst after lifes available if
you beleive in myths.

iraey wrote:

After reading this thread I have to wonder why many who profess not to
believe in God make such an effort to prove he doesn't exist.

The atheist position has nothing whatsoever to do with proving a god
doesn't exist. The atheist position is the default.

It is believers who are asserting that there is something else in
existence besides what atheists and theists all agree upon (the Earth
and everything in it, the universe, etc).

The theist asserts that in addition to what we all agree upon, there is
one more thing - a god - that we do not agree upon. The onus of proof,
therefore, is on those who claim he *does* exist to prove this
existence - to prove that there really is one more thing. So far they
have failed.

There are many problems with the existence of a god; however, the
problem under discussion here is not with the fictional existence of
this god, but with the effect such claims cause.

The effect of a mass delusion that there is a god is real, physical
consequences, such as unjust behavior and laws, intolerance and
persecution. Is this suppsoed to be somehow moral?!

If theists wish everyone to bow down to their rules and laws, then they
are required to justify them with something other than "god said" -
they must prove there is a god who thus spoke. Thests cannot do the
latter, and they try to escape the responsibility of the former by
claiming that these rules are not theirs, but those of this god.

That's the problem.

If you
take the Christian Point your prayers are always answered how be it not
the way you wish them to be but as God see fit based on his design for
you.

There is no evidence that prayer works. How could it? The philosophy
of prayer is that an individual can change a universal, divine and
perfect plan merely by begging (for that is what prayer is), which
makes no sense whatsoever.

Of course it's begging. The theist position can be no other than to
understand that god already knows what we want before we ask, yet god
does not grant this until we beg for it. What could be more evil than
that?

If you have a young child and you know the child is getting hungry, do
you feed the child or do you evilly wait until the child is screaming
from hunger before you feed it?

Do you make the child's receiving food and drink a condition of its
behavior? If you do, you are evil, and so is this god you worship for
the same reason.

Neither are prayers answered. Theists try to escape this fact by
claiming that that while all prayer is answered, it may not be answered
as you might have wished. Unfortunately for their position, this is
not the contract that, according to the Bible, this god made with us.
The Bible makes it explicitly clear that what we ask for in Jesus's
name will be granted. This is a completely unconditional contract.

Furthermore, all prayer is selfish. Even if you pray for something
that is not for yourself, it is still your own selfish wish - you are
still praying for something you want - and something that your god
apparently did not want otherwise you wouldn't be in the position of
having to pray for it to be so.

Finally prayer is an admission of lack of faith on the part of the
prayor. If you had faith in this god of yours, if you trusted in his
divine plan, you would never pray.

Those who say that prayer is for more than begging for things - that it
is, for example, a means of communing with this god, are again
demonstrating nothing but a lack of faith.

They claim that in prayer - in meditation, if you will - they are
opening themselves to this god, but they are merely declaring this god
of theirs to be weak and ineffectual. What kind of god is it who
cannot communicate with you unelss you put yourself into some sort of
specialized mesmeric state beforehand?

Certainly it isn't a god worthy of worship.

I guess in my constant deluded state I can except

You mean accept.

that with the
understanding that I strive to and will be a better person and be with
Christ in the here after.

There is no evidence that there is any form of existence after death.
This is another aspect of blind faith.

I understand that the suffering of myself and
others is inevitable because of sin and lack of faith.

Again, there is no support whatsoever for this self-deprecation. It is
harmful to spend your life under the false impression that you're
nothing but dirt - a plaything of an unfathomable and capricious power.

If you doubt the presents

You mean presence.

of sin and evil look in your paper and on your on streets.

Here, you're arbitrarily declaring normal human behavior to have some
sort of supernatural aspect to it. There is no evidence for this.

Is
the constant murder, rape and injustice not an eye opener for us all.

This behavior is part and parcel of nature - murder, rape and injustice
were created by this god and embedded in nature. A theist has no
choice but to accept that this is god's design - that this is the way
god wanted it.

To claim there's something awry with this is to embrace the dilemma of
declaring bad something that, according to the Bible, this god created
and saw was good. Atheists do not have to deal with this headache
because their morality isn't dependent on the whim of a god.

Atheists do not have to deal with this headache because their

The lack of morality, humanity and humility are consistent with the lack
of faith and grace in this modern world. When we live for self and stand
only on self determination we leave humility and humanity behind. The
search for self justification, self gratification and self importance
leave little room for love of our brothers.

This is hypocrisy, pure and simple. Nothing could be more a case of
self-justification, self-gratification and self-importance than
embracing religion.

Powerless prayer is the result of powerless man.

No, it's the result of there being no god. Nothing in the Bible
suggests that prayer only works if you're a powerful person! Jesus's
promise in the NT was unconditional. It's that simple.

If you lack the fortitude to believe in God and
exalt him then why should he be bothered to exalt us the creatures of
this earth.

You've just declared this god of yours to be selfish and to lack
unconditional love. In other words, you've declared your god to be
evil. It is only because you lack fortitude, or faith, that you pray
in the first place. If you truly believed - if you truly had faith,
you would never pray. Instead you would trust.

A prayer without belief has little chance.

Where, in the Bible, does it state this? The Bible explicitly states
that *whatever* you ask for in Jesus's name will be granted. It's
unconditional. It's that simple. Everything else is an invention of
yours.

I guess we should look beyond our needs and
praise God and Christ when we're not in need.

Why? What has this god done for you that you can prove? What has this
god done for anyone? Can you prove this god exists, or is your faith
not in any god, but instead in the ancient ignorant words of primitive
men whose names and motives you do not even know? That's where your
faith is.

That is the true test of humanity and love. If your heart, Mind and Soul
is planted firmly in this world how can you hope to transcend to God
and ask for his help.

What's the point of asking for help when this god doesn't exist and
even if he did, how can you possibly have the arrogance to imagine he
would change his divine and perfect plan that affects the entire
universe on nothing more than a selfish request from you? The
arrogance of your position is laughable and the position itself is
insane.

Budikka