| Topic: |
Religions > Atheism |
| User: |
"The_Sage" |
| Date: |
03 Apr 2005 03:09:58 AM |
| Object: |
The Powerlessness of Prayer... |
Jesus said, "If two of you shall agree on earth as touching any thing that they
shall ask, it shall be done for them of my Father which is in heaven". On April
Fool's Day of 2005, millions of Christians around the world gathered together in
Jesus' name and prayed in agreement that the Pope would live. They failed.
Which means Jesus lied.
But it does give new meaning to April Fool's Day.
The Sage
=============================================================
My Home Page : http://members.cox.net/the.sage
"The men that American people admire most extravagantly are
most daring liars; the men they detest the most violently are
those who try to tell them the truth" -- H. L. Mencken
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| User: "The Department of Defense" |
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| Title: Re: The Powerlessness of Prayer... |
03 Apr 2005 07:14:21 AM |
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"The_Sage"
<K.effed.>
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| User: "Smoking Gun" |
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| Title: Re: The Powerlessness of Prayer... |
03 Apr 2005 12:24:23 PM |
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"The_Sage" <The_Sage@msn.com> wrote in message
news:dcnu41dc4c4jerfhpohvgcvvv221neienk@4ax.com...
Jesus said, "If two of you shall agree on earth as touching any thing that
they
shall ask, it shall be done for them of my Father which is in heaven". On
April
Fool's Day of 2005, millions of Christians around the world gathered
together in
Jesus' name and prayed in agreement that the Pope would live. They failed.
Which means Jesus lied.
No, it just means that the Bible is wrong again. As usual. Mistranslations
of misunderstood texts in ancient mischosen books that have little
relevance, is all they are. Prayers that people may be trapped in the plane
of suffering (the Earth) and never experience the divine happiness of their
reward in Heaven, are very misguided prayers indeed. God is a god of love,
and could never be so cruel as to keep anyone incarcerated in a physical
body that was breaking down and wearing out.
But it does give new meaning to April Fool's Day.
Those who pray for an extension of life beyond the time span that god has
allotted are not praying wisely.
SG
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| User: "The_Sage" |
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| Title: Re: The Powerlessness of Prayer... |
03 Apr 2005 09:08:08 PM |
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Reply to article by: "Smoking Gun" <smokinggun@myway.com>
Date written: Sun, 3 Apr 2005 22:24:23 +1000
MsgID:<lkR3e.5026$Le2.38372@nasal.pacific.net.au>
Jesus said, "If two of you shall agree on earth as touching any thing that they
shall ask, it shall be done for them of my Father which is in heaven". On April
Fool's Day of 2005, millions of Christians around the world gathered together in
Jesus' name and prayed in agreement that the Pope would live. They failed.
Which means Jesus lied.
No, it just means that the Bible is wrong again. As usual.
Since the only record we have of Jesus existence is in the Bible, if the Bible
is wrong, then Jesus is wrong.
Mistranslations
of misunderstood texts in ancient mischosen books that have little
relevance, is all they are.
There are no "mistranslations" and you know it.
Prayers that people may be trapped in the plane
of suffering (the Earth) and never experience the divine happiness of their
reward in Heaven, are very misguided prayers indeed. God is a god of love,
and could never be so cruel as to keep anyone incarcerated in a physical
body that was breaking down and wearing out.
The Pope disagrees with you, as he gave the exact opposite speech a year ago,
calling it a "moral obligation" to keep the body alive at all costs.
But it does give new meaning to April Fool's Day.
Those who pray for an extension of life beyond the time span that god has
allotted are not praying wisely.
That doesn't change that fact that all those millions of prayers to save the
Pope failed. Reminds me of another time in history where millions of prayers
went answered, ie -- the day Kennedy was shot.
The Sage
=============================================================
My Home Page : http://members.cox.net/the.sage
"The men that American people admire most extravagantly are
most daring liars; the men they detest the most violently are
those who try to tell them the truth" -- H. L. Mencken
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| User: "Paul Duca" |
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| Title: Re: The Powerlessness of Prayer... |
03 Apr 2005 03:23:48 PM |
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in article lkR3e.5026$Le2.38372@nasal.pacific.net.au, Smoking Gun at
smokinggun@myway.com wrote on 4/3/05 8:24 AM:
"The_Sage" <The_Sage@msn.com> wrote in message
news:dcnu41dc4c4jerfhpohvgcvvv221neienk@4ax.com...
Jesus said, "If two of you shall agree on earth as touching any thing that
they
shall ask, it shall be done for them of my Father which is in heaven". On
April
Fool's Day of 2005, millions of Christians around the world gathered
together in
Jesus' name and prayed in agreement that the Pope would live. They failed.
Which means Jesus lied.
No, it just means that the Bible is wrong again. As usual. Mistranslations
of misunderstood texts in ancient mischosen books that have little
relevance, is all they are. Prayers that people may be trapped in the plane
of suffering (the Earth) and never experience the divine happiness of their
reward in Heaven, are very misguided prayers indeed. God is a god of love,
and could never be so cruel as to keep anyone incarcerated in a physical
body that was breaking down and wearing out.
But it does give new meaning to April Fool's Day.
Those who pray for an extension of life beyond the time span that god has
allotted are not praying wisely.
Neither is praying for an extension of credit limit beyond the
dollar figure that God has allotted.
Paul
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| User: "jd no" |
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| Title: Re: The Powerlessness of Prayer... |
03 Apr 2005 03:26:49 PM |
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In context, Jesus was continuing his discussion on the process of Chucrch
discipline when the church discovers that one of its members is engagin in
unrepentant, significant sin. He had just laid out a step by step process
on what to do in order to get a person to turn away from sin, and at the
same time, to protect the church body as a whole against the effects of
their sin if they fail to repent. The final step was to excommunicate such
a person if they failed to heed the prior interventions.
The ancient Jews understood the phrases "bound in heaven" or "loosed in
heaven" to mean that something was either permitted or forbidden under God's
commandments. When you consider this, and the grammar construction of the
original greek, the passage "if two or more of you agree on earth..." means
that when we follow the process of church discipline according to God's law
and pattern, what we do on earth has already been confirmed in heaven by
God. This verse does not mean that if two or more pray about anything,
then it will automatically cause God to grant whatever is asked.
"The_Sage" <The_Sage@msn.com> wrote in message
news:dcnu41dc4c4jerfhpohvgcvvv221neienk@4ax.com...
Jesus said, "If two of you shall agree on earth as touching any thing that
they
shall ask, it shall be done for them of my Father which is in heaven". On
April
Fool's Day of 2005, millions of Christians around the world gathered
together in
Jesus' name and prayed in agreement that the Pope would live. They failed.
Which means Jesus lied.
But it does give new meaning to April Fool's Day.
The Sage
=============================================================
My Home Page : http://members.cox.net/the.sage
"The men that American people admire most extravagantly are
most daring liars; the men they detest the most violently are
those who try to tell them the truth" -- H. L. Mencken
=============================================================
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| User: "The_Sage" |
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| Title: Re: The Powerlessness of Prayer... |
03 Apr 2005 09:10:39 PM |
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Reply to article by: "jd" <no spam_j.aemtp@pa0nline.c0m>
Date written: Sun, 3 Apr 2005 11:26:49 -0400
MsgID:<ZLWdnXlGRpOtls3fRVn-vQ@paonline.com>
In context, Jesus was continuing his discussion on the process of Chucrch
discipline when the church discovers that one of its members is engagin in
unrepentant, significant sin. He had just laid out a step by step process
on what to do in order to get a person to turn away from sin, and at the
same time, to protect the church body as a whole against the effects of
their sin if they fail to repent. The final step was to excommunicate such
a person if they failed to heed the prior interventions.
Wrong, wrong, wrong! You are making this up as you go along. Please read Matthew
18 for yourself and then see if you can twist God's word into anything remotely
resembling "Church discipline".
The Sage
=============================================================
My Home Page : http://members.cox.net/the.sage
"The men that American people admire most extravagantly are
most daring liars; the men they detest the most violently are
those who try to tell them the truth" -- H. L. Mencken
=============================================================
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: The Powerlessness of Prayer... |
03 Apr 2005 07:40:52 PM |
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In <ZLWdnXlGRpOtls3fRVn-vQ@paonline.com>, on 04/03/05
at 11:26 AM, "jd" <no spam_j.aemtp@pa0nline.c0m> engaged is the folowing special pleading, which in discussions seeking to arrive at the truth, is a no no.
crossposted all over the place this is.
In context, Jesus was continuing his discussion on the process of Chucrch
First of all, you are assuming your conclusions, that a Jesus, is spite ot the historical & theological absence, existed, & that you know what it was talking about.
But for the sake of discussion, I hold your assumptions a s real to you.
discipline when the church discovers that one of its members is engagin
in unrepentant, significant sin. He had just laid out a step by step
process on what to do in order to get a person to turn away from sin, and
at the same time, to protect the church body as a whole against the
effects of their sin if they fail to repent. The final step was to
excommunicate such a person if they failed to heed the prior
interventions.
Now this is a novel, not really, twist. It appears to be a variation of the passage does not mean what it says so therefore you can not interpret it literally. It musty be a parable, allegory or metaphor, when it obviously is not. It is a promise, from a claimed deity to its followers.
BTW, why say something if you do not mean it? My children still have trouble with that concept, & they are in their late forties.
The ancient Jews understood the phrases "bound in heaven" or "loosed in
heaven" to mean that something was either permitted or forbidden under
God's commandments. When you consider this, and the grammar construction
of the original greek, the passage "if two or more of you agree on
earth..." means that when we follow the process of church discipline
according to God's law and pattern, what we do on earth has already been
confirmed in heaven by God. This verse does not mean that if two or
more pray about anything, then it will automatically cause God to grant
whatever is asked.
IOW, it means what it says until someone points out that it does not work, every time.
It is what it says, but what you are saying is that it should not be taken at face value. Sounds like the treaty's the white folks signed with the first native Americans [North, Central & South] to me.
BTW, once you establish that this passage is fake because you are right, let me know please, I enjoy watching convoluted thinking.
snip Sage's point, prayer in fact has been shown not to work, unless of course, there were no xians making the prayer.
walksalone who has noticed, xians can move at the speed of dark when it comes time to pretend those embarrassing claims made in their grimories do not mean what they say.
--
A man said to the universe: "Sir I exist!" "However," replied the universe,
"The fact has not created in
me A sense of obligation."
Stephen Crane, writer (1871-1900
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| User: "The_Sage" |
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| Title: Re: The Powerlessness of Prayer... |
10 Sep 2005 01:56:45 AM |
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Jesus said, "If two of you shall agree on earth as touching any thing that they
shall ask, it shall be done for them of my Father which is in heaven". On Aug
29th of 2005, millions of Christians around the USA prayed together in
Jesus' name and prayed in agreement that New Orleans would be spared. They
failed.
Which means Jesus lied.
The Sage
=============================================================
My Home Page : http://members.cox.net/the.sage
"Toward no crimes have men shown themselves so cold-bloodedly
cruel as in punishing differences in belief"
-- James Russell Lowell
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| User: "bam" |
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| Title: Re: The Powerlessness of Prayer... |
10 Sep 2005 02:42:25 AM |
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"The_Sage" <The_Sage@msn.com> wrote in message
news:28f4i1l4tku4kau6d0ok66ba7q2g5no2se@4ax.com...
Jesus said, "If two of you shall agree on earth as touching any thing that
they
shall ask, it shall be done for them of my Father which is in heaven". On
Aug
29th of 2005, millions of Christians around the USA prayed together in
Jesus' name and prayed in agreement that New Orleans would be spared. They
failed.
Which means Jesus lied.
The Sage
Or, that you misinterpreted scripture, wise fool.
BAM
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| User: "Greywolf" |
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| Title: Re: The Powerlessness of Prayer... |
10 Sep 2005 03:04:42 AM |
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"bam" <mcca5761@bellsouthblahblah.net> wrote in message
news:tIrUe.27403$ZL4.18689@bignews4.bellsouth.net...
"The_Sage" <The_Sage@msn.com> wrote in message
news:28f4i1l4tku4kau6d0ok66ba7q2g5no2se@4ax.com...
Jesus said, "If two of you shall agree on earth as touching any thing
that they
shall ask, it shall be done for them of my Father which is in heaven". On
Aug
29th of 2005, millions of Christians around the USA prayed together in
Jesus' name and prayed in agreement that New Orleans would be spared.
They
failed.
Which means Jesus lied.
The Sage
Or, that you misinterpreted scripture, wise fool.
BAM
'Therefore I tell you, whatever you ask in prayer, believe that you receive
it, AND YOU
WILL.' (Mt.11:24) What is there to 'misinterpret' here, wise fool?
Greywolf
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| User: "bam" |
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| Title: Re: The Powerlessness of Prayer... |
10 Sep 2005 04:13:28 AM |
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"Greywolf" <greywolf@cybrzn.com> wrote in message
news:11i4ja3jtouvd95@corp.supernews.com...
"bam" <mcca5761@bellsouthblahblah.net> wrote in message
news:tIrUe.27403$ZL4.18689@bignews4.bellsouth.net...
"The_Sage" <The_Sage@msn.com> wrote in message
news:28f4i1l4tku4kau6d0ok66ba7q2g5no2se@4ax.com...
Jesus said, "If two of you shall agree on earth as touching any thing
that they
shall ask, it shall be done for them of my Father which is in heaven".
On Aug
29th of 2005, millions of Christians around the USA prayed together in
Jesus' name and prayed in agreement that New Orleans would be spared.
They
failed.
Which means Jesus lied.
The Sage
Or, that you misinterpreted scripture, wise fool.
BAM
'Therefore I tell you, whatever you ask in prayer, believe that you
receive it, AND YOU
WILL.' (Mt.11:24) What is there to 'misinterpret' here, wise fool?
That Jesus wasn't talking to people from Lousiana.
Secondly - you've got a strange Bible:
Mat 11:24 But I say unto you, that it shall be more tolerable for the land
of Sodom in the day of judgment than for thee.
dum dum
BAM
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| User: "Greywolf" |
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| Title: Re: The Powerlessness of Prayer... |
10 Sep 2005 08:43:13 AM |
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"bam" <mcca5761@bellsouthblahblah.net> wrote in message
news:Q1tUe.2051$z73.1309@bignews5.bellsouth.net...
"Greywolf" <greywolf@cybrzn.com> wrote in message
news:11i4ja3jtouvd95@corp.supernews.com...
"bam" <mcca5761@bellsouthblahblah.net> wrote in message
news:tIrUe.27403$ZL4.18689@bignews4.bellsouth.net...
"The_Sage" <The_Sage@msn.com> wrote in message
news:28f4i1l4tku4kau6d0ok66ba7q2g5no2se@4ax.com...
Jesus said, "If two of you shall agree on earth as touching any thing
that they
shall ask, it shall be done for them of my Father which is in heaven".
On Aug
29th of 2005, millions of Christians around the USA prayed together in
Jesus' name and prayed in agreement that New Orleans would be spared.
They
failed.
Which means Jesus lied.
The Sage
Or, that you misinterpreted scripture, wise fool.
BAM
'Therefore I tell you, whatever you ask in prayer, believe that you
receive it, AND YOU
WILL.' (Mt.11:24) What is there to 'misinterpret' here, wise fool?
That Jesus wasn't talking to people from Lousiana.
Oh, that's cute. You *know* that 'The Sage' was pointing out that
prayer is useless. A whole lot of people prayed that New Orleans
would be spared. Didn't happen did it? You then accuse 'The Sage'
of misinterpreting a passage that clearly indicates that Jesus-God
will answer prayers - positvely. I then cited a passage from 'scripture'
that reinforces that assertion. Only problem is, I should have indicated
that the passage came from Mark 11:24, not Matthew. My mistake.
What's yours?
Secondly - you've got a strange Bible:
Mat 11:24 But I say unto you, that it shall be more tolerable for the land
of Sodom in the day of judgment than for thee.
dum dum
Okay. I stand corrected. It should have read Mark 11:24. Now that we've
got *that* out of the way, address the issue.
Greywolf
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| User: "bam" |
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| Title: Re: The Powerlessness of Prayer... |
10 Sep 2005 02:08:37 PM |
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"Greywolf" <greywolf@cybrzn.com> wrote
Oh, that's cute. You *know* that 'The Sage' was pointing out that
prayer is useless. A whole lot of people prayed that New Orleans
would be spared. Didn't happen did it? You then accuse 'The Sage'
of misinterpreting a passage that clearly indicates that Jesus-God
will answer prayers - positvely. I then cited a passage from 'scripture'
that reinforces that assertion. Only problem is, I should have indicated
that the passage came from Mark 11:24, not Matthew. My mistake.
What's yours?
1. Jesus was speaking to His Apostles, his chosen.
2. The quote was cut off - that's not entirely what Jesus said:
Mar 11:22 And Jesus answering, saith to them: Have the faith of God.
Mar 11:23 Amen I say to you that whosoever shall say to this mountain, Be
thou removed and be cast into the sea, and shall not stagger in his heart,
but be believe that whatsoever he saith shall be done; it shall be done unto
him.
Mar 11:24 Therefore I say unto you, all things, whatsoever you ask when ye
pray, believe that you shall receive: and they shall come unto you.
Mar 11:25 And when you shall stand to pray, forgive, if you have aught
against any man: that your Father also, who is in heaven, may forgive you
your sins.
Mar 11:26 But if you will not forgive, neither will your father that is in
heaven forgive you your sins.
So I repeat my original statement, viz., "Or, that you misinterpreted
scripture, wise fool."
BAM
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| User: "Greywolf" |
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| Title: Re: The Powerlessness of Prayer... |
11 Sep 2005 02:07:39 AM |
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"bam" <mcca5761@bellsouthblahblah.net> wrote in message
news:NLBUe.2993$z73.862@bignews5.bellsouth.net...
"Greywolf" <greywolf@cybrzn.com> wrote
Oh, that's cute. You *know* that 'The Sage' was pointing out that
prayer is useless. A whole lot of people prayed that New Orleans
would be spared. Didn't happen did it? You then accuse 'The Sage'
of misinterpreting a passage that clearly indicates that Jesus-God
will answer prayers - positvely. I then cited a passage from 'scripture'
that reinforces that assertion. Only problem is, I should have indicated
that the passage came from Mark 11:24, not Matthew. My mistake.
What's yours?
1. Jesus was speaking to His Apostles, his chosen.
Oh, so I'm to take it that his words were of a 'private' or 'secret' nature;
that they weren't meant for anyone else's ears, eh?
2. The quote was cut off - that's not entirely what Jesus said:
Mar 11:22 And Jesus answering, saith to them: Have the faith of God.
Mar 11:23 Amen I say to you that whosoever shall say to this mountain, Be
thou removed and be cast into the sea, and shall not stagger in his heart,
but be believe that whatsoever he saith shall be done; it shall be done
unto him.
That's great! The guy is saying that *if* a person has the 'faith of God,'
they can
move mountains. Anyone you know have the 'faith of God'? If not, the entire
line of thinking is meaningless. Prayer is, therefore, meaningless. No one
on
planet earth has the 'faith of God' now, do they?
Mar 11:24 Therefore I say unto you, all things, whatsoever you ask when ye
pray, believe that you shall receive: and they shall come unto you.
'Oh dear sweet Jesus. Please spare the city of New Orleans from any death
and
destruction hurricane Katrina may bring. Please spare my friends and
neighbors.
I beg you Jesus. They are *good* Christains, as I am. We love, worship, and
adore you sweet Jesus. And please spare the church on the corner where we
faithfully meet each week to honor you sweet name. Please dear God, I *beg*
you!'
(Hours later: glub, glub glub.)
How deluded can you people get. It sickened me just *writing* the above. How
dare
the clergy have you believe the poppycock you people believe. They should
hang
their heads in shame. They're disgusting. And so are you for espousing the
same crap!
Mar 11:25 And when you shall stand to pray, forgive, if you have aught
against any man: that your Father also, who is in heaven, may forgive you
your sins.
Mark is talking about the forgiveness of sins here, not the effectiveness of
prayer.
Mar 11:26 But if you will not forgive, neither will your father that is in
heaven forgive you your sins.
So I repeat my original statement, viz., "Or, that you misinterpreted
scripture, wise fool."
'And *all* things you ask in prayer, believing, you *shall* receive." (Mt.
21:22)
No need of 'the faith of God' here, fool.
Greywolf
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| User: "bam" |
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| Title: Re: The Powerlessness of Prayer... |
11 Sep 2005 04:06:44 PM |
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"Greywolf" <greywolf@cybrzn.com> wrote
1. Jesus was speaking to His Apostles, his chosen.
Oh, so I'm to take it that his words were of a 'private' or 'secret'
nature;
that they weren't meant for anyone else's ears, eh?
That's a weak brained conclusion.
2. The quote was cut off - that's not entirely what Jesus said:
Mar 11:22 And Jesus answering, saith to them: Have the faith of God.
Mar 11:23 Amen I say to you that whosoever shall say to this mountain, Be
thou removed and be cast into the sea, and shall not stagger in his
heart, but be believe that whatsoever he saith shall be done; it shall be
done unto him.
That's great! The guy is saying that *if* a person has the 'faith of God,'
they can
move mountains. Anyone you know have the 'faith of God'? If not, the
entire
line of thinking is meaningless. Prayer is, therefore, meaningless. No one
on
planet earth has the 'faith of God' now, do they?
I'm not here to instruct a skeptic. Make your own conclusions. But have no
illusions that they are correct.
Mar 11:24 Therefore I say unto you, all things, whatsoever you ask when
ye pray, believe that you shall receive: and they shall come unto you.
'Oh dear sweet Jesus. Please spare the city of New Orleans from any death
and
destruction hurricane Katrina may bring. Please spare my friends and
neighbors.
I beg you Jesus. They are *good* Christains, as I am. We love, worship,
and
adore you sweet Jesus. And please spare the church on the corner where we
faithfully meet each week to honor you sweet name. Please dear God, I
*beg* you!'
(Hours later: glub, glub glub.)
How deluded can you people get. It sickened me just *writing* the above.
How dare
the clergy have you believe the poppycock you people believe. They should
hang
their heads in shame. They're disgusting. And so are you for espousing the
same crap!
We knew about the hurricane long before it hit. We had the ability evacuate
without asking for a miracle. "Thou shalt not tempt the Lord they God".
Mar 11:25 And when you shall stand to pray, forgive, if you have aught
against any man: that your Father also, who is in heaven, may forgive you
your sins.
Mark is talking about the forgiveness of sins here, not the effectiveness
of prayer.
See what you want to see. Mark is saying that unless you approach God with
the proper heart, your prayers will not be heard.
BAM
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| User: "duke" |
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| Title: Re: The Powerlessness of Prayer... |
10 Sep 2005 12:09:00 PM |
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On Sat, 10 Sep 2005 03:43:13 -0500, "Greywolf" <greywolf@cybrzn.com> wrote:
Oh, that's cute. You *know* that 'The Sage' was pointing out that
prayer is useless.
sage simply doesn't know what he was talking about. Man's sin is to pretend
that he is as a god.
Prayer is to have the strength to endure, not to have God stop evil.
But, you know, sage doesn't know what he's talking about.
Okay. I stand corrected. It should have read Mark 11:24. Now that we've
got *that* out of the way, address the issue.
Greywolf
done
duke
*****
"The Mass is the most perfect form of Prayer."
Pope Paul VI
*****
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| User: "shrikeback" |
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| Title: Re: The Powerlessness of Prayer... |
10 Sep 2005 04:09:46 PM |
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"duke" <duckgumbo32@cox.net> wrote in message
news:p2j5i1lnqenebblmh1pjo54mi42r92k0fa@4ax.com...
On Sat, 10 Sep 2005 03:43:13 -0500, "Greywolf" <greywolf@cybrzn.com>
wrote:
Oh, that's cute. You *know* that 'The Sage' was pointing out that
prayer is useless.
sage simply doesn't know what he was talking about. Man's sin is to
pretend
that he is as a god.
Prayer is to have the strength to endure, not to have God stop evil.
So, in other words, prayer can't do anything we can't do for ourselves.
Prayer: God's Placebo.
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| User: "V S Rawat" |
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| Title: Re: The Powerlessness of Prayer... |
10 Sep 2005 06:22:29 PM |
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On 9/10/05 9:39 PM India Time, _shrikeback_ wrote:
"duke" <duckgumbo32@cox.net> wrote in message
news:p2j5i1lnqenebblmh1pjo54mi42r92k0fa@4ax.com...
On Sat, 10 Sep 2005 03:43:13 -0500, "Greywolf" <greywolf@cybrzn.com>
wrote:
Oh, that's cute. You *know* that 'The Sage' was pointing out that
prayer is useless.
sage simply doesn't know what he was talking about. Man's sin is to
pretend that he is as a god.
Prayer is to have the strength to endure, not to have God stop evil.
So, in other words, prayer can't do anything we can't do for ourselves.
Prayer: God's Placebo.
Rightly said.
When we do prayer, we describe the situation to God, and
seek his advise/ decision.
Thus, while doing a prayer, we detach ourselves from the
actual situation. We become objective that the matter is
sent for the consideration of some higher. It brings hope
and lets us ride through the immediate aftermath of the
situation.
Whatever happens thenafter, we take as the advice/ decision
sent by God.
It helps us accepting the decision, whatever it could be.
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| User: "Greywolf" |
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| Title: Re: The Powerlessness of Prayer... |
11 Sep 2005 05:19:52 AM |
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"V S Rawat" <VSRawat@Invalid.none> wrote in message
news:43232f30_1@x-privat.org...
On 9/10/05 9:39 PM India Time, _shrikeback_ wrote:
"duke" <duckgumbo32@cox.net> wrote in message
news:p2j5i1lnqenebblmh1pjo54mi42r92k0fa@4ax.com...
On Sat, 10 Sep 2005 03:43:13 -0500, "Greywolf" <greywolf@cybrzn.com>
wrote:
Oh, that's cute. You *know* that 'The Sage' was pointing out that
prayer is useless.
sage simply doesn't know what he was talking about. Man's sin is to
pretend that he is as a god.
Prayer is to have the strength to endure, not to have God stop evil.
So, in other words, prayer can't do anything we can't do for ourselves.
Prayer: God's Placebo.
Rightly said.
When we do prayer, we describe the situation to God, and seek his advise/
decision.
Thus, while doing a prayer, we detach ourselves from the actual situation.
We become objective that the matter is sent for the consideration of some
higher. It brings hope and lets us ride through the immediate aftermath of
the situation.
Whatever happens thenafter, we take as the advice/ decision sent by God.
It helps us accepting the decision, whatever it could be.
'Therefore I say to you, all things for which you pray and ask,
believe that you have received them, and they shall be *granted*
you.' (Mk. 11:24)
'And *whatever* you ask in prayer, you will recieve, *if* you
have faith. (Mt. 21:23)
Greywolf
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| User: "Eric Brze" |
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| Title: Re: The Powerlessness of Prayer... |
11 Sep 2005 02:02:29 PM |
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On Sun, 11 Sep 2005 00:19:52 -0500, "Greywolf" <greywolf@cybrzn.com>
wrote:
'Therefore I say to you, all things for which you pray and ask,
believe that you have received them, and they shall be *granted*
you.' (Mk. 11:24)
'And *whatever* you ask in prayer, you will recieve, *if* you
have faith. (Mt. 21:23)
Except prayers are fulfilled not by our will but by God's will.
Greywolf
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| User: "thomas p" |
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| Title: Re: The Powerlessness of Prayer... |
11 Sep 2005 08:19:24 PM |
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On Sat, 10 Sep 2005 23:52:29 +0530, V S Rawat <VSRawat@Invalid.none>
wrote:
On 9/10/05 9:39 PM India Time, _shrikeback_ wrote:
"duke" <duckgumbo32@cox.net> wrote in message
news:p2j5i1lnqenebblmh1pjo54mi42r92k0fa@4ax.com...
On Sat, 10 Sep 2005 03:43:13 -0500, "Greywolf" <greywolf@cybrzn.com>
wrote:
Oh, that's cute. You *know* that 'The Sage' was pointing out that
prayer is useless.
sage simply doesn't know what he was talking about. Man's sin is to
pretend that he is as a god.
Prayer is to have the strength to endure, not to have God stop evil.
So, in other words, prayer can't do anything we can't do for ourselves.
Prayer: God's Placebo.
Rightly said.
When we do prayer, we describe the situation to God, and
seek his advise/ decision.
Thus, while doing a prayer, we detach ourselves from the
actual situation. We become objective that the matter is
sent for the consideration of some higher. It brings hope
and lets us ride through the immediate aftermath of the
situation.
Whatever happens thenafter, we take as the advice/ decision
sent by God.
It helps us accepting the decision, whatever it could be.
See, that is why it is so hard to understand theism. Prayers are said
to stop storms, cure cancer, bring rain etc., at least that is what is
said; and, when occasionally the thing prayed for actually happens,
the theists say "See, it works". Now you tell us that they were not
really praying for those things at all. It is almost as if the
explanations are changed to fit the situation.
Thomas P.
"Life must be lived forwards but understood backwards"
(Kierkegaard)
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| User: "V S Rawat" |
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| Title: Re: The Powerlessness of Prayer... |
12 Sep 2005 03:13:03 PM |
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On 9/12/05 1:49 AM India Time, _thomas p_ wrote:
On Sat, 10 Sep 2005 23:52:29 +0530, V S Rawat <VSRawat@Invalid.none>
wrote:
On 9/10/05 9:39 PM India Time, _shrikeback_ wrote:
"duke" <duckgumbo32@cox.net> wrote in message
news:p2j5i1lnqenebblmh1pjo54mi42r92k0fa@4ax.com...
On Sat, 10 Sep 2005 03:43:13 -0500, "Greywolf" <greywolf@cybrzn.com>
wrote:
Oh, that's cute. You *know* that 'The Sage' was pointing out that
prayer is useless.
sage simply doesn't know what he was talking about. Man's sin is to
pretend that he is as a god.
Prayer is to have the strength to endure, not to have God stop evil.
So, in other words, prayer can't do anything we can't do for ourselves.
Prayer: God's Placebo.
Rightly said.
When we do prayer, we describe the situation to God, and
seek his advise/ decision.
Thus, while doing a prayer, we detach ourselves from the
actual situation. We become objective that the matter is
sent for the consideration of some higher. It brings hope
and lets us ride through the immediate aftermath of the
situation.
Whatever happens thenafter, we take as the advice/ decision
sent by God.
It helps us accepting the decision, whatever it could be.
See, that is why it is so hard to understand theism. Prayers are said
to stop storms, cure cancer, bring rain etc., at least that is what is
said; and, when occasionally the thing prayed for actually happens,
the theists say "See, it works". Now you tell us that they were not
really praying for those things at all. It is almost as if the
explanations are changed to fit the situation.
Hi Thoman,
You must have heard of Murphy's Laws like "Anything that can
go wrong, will." Now there are entire encylopedia full of
"laws" in that category. Murphy's Laws has become a proper noun.
If you analyze a few such laws, you would realize that they
are quite logical, in the sense that they depend on the
working of the brain, they depend on our perception, they
depend on what we eventually see.
And we see only a few things in the midst of millions of
event that keep on taking place. Thus, when we see something
happening that we had thought would/ wouldn't, we make a
mental note of that. We don't make any mental notes of
million other events.
Thus, "it works" falls perfectly well in the category of
"Murphy's Laws".
As far as prayers bringing strom, curing cancer, pleasing
rain God, ... , the current explanation of science is that
all these are random co-incidences which gets notices thus
reported because they are in Murphy's Laws. Same thing about
Christian miracles at laudes (sp?), etc.
I was talking about the psychological effect of a prayer on
us. I was not talking about prayer resulting fruits or not.
.
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| User: "thomas p" |
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| Title: Re: The Powerlessness of Prayer... |
13 Sep 2005 07:51:08 PM |
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On Mon, 12 Sep 2005 20:43:03 +0530, V S Rawat <VSRawat@Invalid.none>
wrote:
On 9/12/05 1:49 AM India Time, _thomas p_ wrote:
On Sat, 10 Sep 2005 23:52:29 +0530, V S Rawat <VSRawat@Invalid.none>
wrote:
On 9/10/05 9:39 PM India Time, _shrikeback_ wrote:
"duke" <duckgumbo32@cox.net> wrote in message
news:p2j5i1lnqenebblmh1pjo54mi42r92k0fa@4ax.com...
On Sat, 10 Sep 2005 03:43:13 -0500, "Greywolf" <greywolf@cybrzn.com>
wrote:
Oh, that's cute. You *know* that 'The Sage' was pointing out that
prayer is useless.
sage simply doesn't know what he was talking about. Man's sin is to
pretend that he is as a god.
Prayer is to have the strength to endure, not to have God stop evil.
So, in other words, prayer can't do anything we can't do for ourselves.
Prayer: God's Placebo.
Rightly said.
When we do prayer, we describe the situation to God, and
seek his advise/ decision.
Thus, while doing a prayer, we detach ourselves from the
actual situation. We become objective that the matter is
sent for the consideration of some higher. It brings hope
and lets us ride through the immediate aftermath of the
situation.
Whatever happens thenafter, we take as the advice/ decision
sent by God.
It helps us accepting the decision, whatever it could be.
See, that is why it is so hard to understand theism. Prayers are said
to stop storms, cure cancer, bring rain etc., at least that is what is
said; and, when occasionally the thing prayed for actually happens,
the theists say "See, it works". Now you tell us that they were not
really praying for those things at all. It is almost as if the
explanations are changed to fit the situation.
Hi Thoman,
You must have heard of Murphy's Laws like "Anything that can
go wrong, will." Now there are entire encylopedia full of
"laws" in that category. Murphy's Laws has become a proper noun.
If you analyze a few such laws, you would realize that they
are quite logical, in the sense that they depend on the
working of the brain, they depend on our perception, they
depend on what we eventually see.
And we see only a few things in the midst of millions of
event that keep on taking place. Thus, when we see something
happening that we had thought would/ wouldn't, we make a
mental note of that. We don't make any mental notes of
million other events.
Thus, "it works" falls perfectly well in the category of
"Murphy's Laws".
The above has nothing to do with what I wrote or with much of anything
for that matter.
As far as prayers bringing strom, curing cancer, pleasing
rain God, ... , the current explanation of science is that
all these are random co-incidences which gets notices thus
reported because they are in Murphy's Laws. Same thing about
Christian miracles at laudes (sp?), etc.
I was talking about the psychological effect of a prayer on
us. I was not talking about prayer resulting fruits or not.
You said you were talking about seeking god's advice and accepting the
decision.
Thomas P.
"Life must be lived forwards but understood backwards"
(Kierkegaard)
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| User: "duke" |
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| Title: Re: The Powerlessness of Prayer... |
10 Sep 2005 11:13:47 PM |
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On Sat, 10 Sep 2005 09:09:46 -0700, "shrikeback" <hewpiedawg@hotmail.com> wrote:
Prayer is to have the strength to endure, not to have God stop evil.
So, in other words, prayer can't do anything we can't do for ourselves.
Prayer: God's Placebo.
Atheists don't even have what it takes to donate to an organization is their
name. they don't have such an organization.
duke
*****
"The Mass is the most perfect form of Prayer."
Pope Paul VI
*****
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| User: "Steve O" |
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| Title: Re: The Powerlessness of Prayer... |
12 Sep 2005 12:00:27 PM |
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"duke" <duckgumbo32@cox.net> wrote in message
news:43q6i1p7vljqf43ungb1va1h1veat1m0bu@4ax.com...
On Sat, 10 Sep 2005 09:09:46 -0700, "shrikeback" <hewpiedawg@hotmail.com>
wrote:
Prayer is to have the strength to endure, not to have God stop evil.
So, in other words, prayer can't do anything we can't do for ourselves.
Prayer: God's Placebo.
Atheists don't even have what it takes to donate to an organization is
their
name. they don't have such an organization.
duke
*****
I'll take this stupid comment as final proof that duke is actually a troll
rather than a Christian.
Even a theist couldn't be such a vile, lying simpleton.
--
Steve O
Atheist list #2240
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| User: "Colin Day" |
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| Title: Re: The Powerlessness of Prayer... |
11 Sep 2005 02:29:08 AM |
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duke wrote:
On Sat, 10 Sep 2005 09:09:46 -0700, "shrikeback" <hewpiedawg@hotmail.com> wrote:
Prayer is to have the strength to endure, not to have God stop evil.
So, in other words, prayer can't do anything we can't do for ourselves.
Prayer: God's Placebo.
Atheists don't even have what it takes to donate to an organization is their
name. they don't have such an organization.
So the donations of atheists to the Red Cross, or their volunteer work don't
count because such efforts aren't from atheist organizations?
Colin Day aa #1500
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duke wrote:
<blockquote cite="mid43q6i1p7vljqf43ungb1va1h1veat1m0bu@4ax.com"
type="cite">
<pre wrap="">On Sat, 10 Sep 2005 09:09:46 -0700, "shrikeback" <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:hewpiedawg@hotmail.com"><hewpiedawg@hotmail.com></a> wrote:
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">Prayer is to have the strength to endure, not to have God stop evil.
</pre>
</blockquote>
<pre wrap="">So, in other words, prayer can't do anything we can't do for ourselves.
Prayer: God's Placebo.
</pre>
</blockquote>
<pre wrap=""><!---->
Atheists don't even have what it takes to donate to an organization is their
name. they don't have such an organization.
</pre>
</blockquote>
So the donations of atheists to the Red Cross, or their volunteer work
don't<br>
count because such efforts aren't from atheist organizations?<br>
<br>
Colin Day aa #1500<br>
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| User: "Colin Day" |
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| Title: Re: The Powerlessness of Prayer... |
10 Sep 2005 01:16:25 PM |
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duke wrote:
On Sat, 10 Sep 2005 03:43:13 -0500, "Greywolf" <greywolf@cybrzn.com> wrote:
Oh, that's cute. You *know* that 'The Sage' was pointing out that
prayer is useless.
sage simply doesn't know what he was talking about. Man's sin is to pretend
that he is as a god.
Prayer is to have the strength to endure, not to have God stop evil.
An unusual definition of "prayer". Would an atheist who simply had the
strength to endure be praying?
But, you know, sage doesn't know what he's talking about.
Okay. I stand corrected. It should have read Mark 11:24. Now that we've
got *that* out of the way, address the issue.
Greywolf
done
duke
*****
"The Mass is the most perfect form of Prayer."
Pope Paul VI
*****
Colin Day aa #1500
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duke wrote:
<blockquote cite="midp2j5i1lnqenebblmh1pjo54mi42r92k0fa@4ax.com"
type="cite">
<pre wrap="">On Sat, 10 Sep 2005 03:43:13 -0500, "Greywolf" <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:greywolf@cybrzn.com"><greywolf@cybrzn.com></a> wrote:
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">Oh, that's cute. You *know* that 'The Sage' was pointing out that
prayer is useless.
</pre>
</blockquote>
<pre wrap=""><!---->
sage simply doesn't know what he was talking about. Man's sin is to pretend
that he is as a god.
</pre>
</blockquote>
<br>
<br>
<blockquote cite="midp2j5i1lnqenebblmh1pjo54mi42r92k0fa@4ax.com"
type="cite">
<pre wrap="">
Prayer is to have the strength to endure, not to have God stop evil.
</pre>
</blockquote>
<br>
An unusual definition of "prayer". Would an atheist who simply had the<br>
strength to endure be praying?<br>
<blockquote cite="midp2j5i1lnqenebblmh1pjo54mi42r92k0fa@4ax.com"
type="cite">
<pre wrap="">
But, you know, sage doesn't know what he's talking about.
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">Okay. I stand corrected. It should have read Mark 11:24. Now that we've
got *that* out of the way, address the issue.
Greywolf
</pre>
</blockquote>
<pre wrap=""><!---->
done
duke
*****
"The Mass is the most perfect form of Prayer."
Pope Paul VI
*****
</pre>
</blockquote>
Colin Day aa #1500<br>
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| User: "duke" |
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| Title: Re: The Powerlessness of Prayer... |
10 Sep 2005 11:12:26 PM |
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On Sat, 10 Sep 2005 13:16:25 GMT, Colin Day <cday3@sc.rr.com> wrote:
An unusual definition of "prayer". Would an atheist who simply had the
strength to endure be praying?
He better. He can't do it without God.
duke
*****
"The Mass is the most perfect form of Prayer."
Pope Paul VI
*****
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| User: "Colin Day" |
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| Title: Re: The Powerlessness of Prayer... |
11 Sep 2005 02:17:58 AM |
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duke wrote:
On Sat, 10 Sep 2005 13:16:25 GMT, Colin Day <cday3@sc.rr.com> wrote:
An unusual definition of "prayer". Would an atheist who simply had the
strength to endure be praying?
He better. He can't do it without God.
And why does it require belief in a deity to have the strength to endure?
Colin Day aa #1500
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duke wrote:
<blockquote cite="mid81q6i1phqk2d0021mkvgkigku95n7ar2u5@4ax.com"
type="cite">
<pre wrap="">On Sat, 10 Sep 2005 13:16:25 GMT, Colin Day <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:cday3@sc.rr.com"><cday3@sc.rr.com></a> wrote:
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">An unusual definition of "prayer". Would an atheist who simply had the
strength to endure be praying?
</pre>
</blockquote>
<pre wrap=""><!---->
He better. He can't do it without God.
</pre>
</blockquote>
<br>
And why does it require belief in a deity to have the strength to
endure?<br>
<br>
Colin Day aa #1500<br>
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| User: "Budikka666" |
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| Title: Re: The Powerlessness of Prayer... |
17 Sep 2005 09:50:54 AM |
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Colin Day wrote:
And why does it require belief in a deity to have the strength to endure?
Colin Day aa #1500
Duke's been mass-plonked for being a moron, a coward, a hypocrite and a
pathological liar. Join the plonk!
Budikka
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