The Religion of Atheism



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Topic: Religions > Atheism
User: "+Church of The Painful Truth+"
Date: 18 May 2004 09:41:36 PM
Object: The Religion of Atheism
On this page, I want to take a look at the logic errors in religion of
atheism. When I am contacted by an atheist, the first thing I do is to find
out whether they are aware of the fact that it is impossible for science to
prove that God does not exist. Most atheist are aware of this. At first,
people thought that evolution proved that God cannot exist but creation
scientists were more than glad to point out to us (I was still an
evolutionist at that time) that the best evolution can do is to MAKE IT
POSSIBLE for God to not exist. This is because the same God who can create
life could just as easily evolved it. As a matter of fact, Christians who
still believe in evolution believe this is what happened and increasing
numbers of evolutionists are turning to this concept or simply converting to
creation science.
Therefore, evolutionists were forced to admit that it is scientifically
impossible to prove that God does not exist. Unfortunately, to keep creation
scientists from a complete success, they added a lie to this truthful
statement. They say that it is impossible to prove that God does not exist
or that He does exist. I will cover the disproof for this lie later on this
page.
The reason I do this is to find out whether the person is simply ignorant of
this fact that it is impossible to prove that God does not exist or is
simply being irrational. If the person is just ignorant of this fact, then I
simply inform that person of the fact and explain it as much as necessary. I
then leave that person to decide for himself whether to reconsider his
belief in atheism or to stubbornly believe what he wants regardless of what
science says. That is his choice.
If the person is aware of this fact, then they are telling me they are being
irrational. This is because a logical and rational person only has two
possible belief systems when they are aware that it is impossible to
disprove the existence of God. The first is to remain open minded and
undecided concerning the existence of God until it is possible to prove such
a being could not exist which may be never. The other belief system is to
believe that such a being does exist because of the evidence.
For a person to believe that the being, God, does not exist when it is
impossible to prove that He does not exist is irrational because it will
always remain possible that the being, God, does exist. This requires that
all rational and logical people either believe in the being, God, because of
evidence or keep an open mind and be undecided about His possible existence.
Therefore, atheism is the most irrational and illogical religion on the
planet because it will always be possible that the being, God, exists.
To avoid this dilemma, atheist have added the lie that it is impossible to
prove the existence of God to the truth that it is impossible to disprove
the existence of God. Common sense should tell you that it is possible to
prove the existence of God in one of two ways. The first, is to find
evidence that God exists. The second, is to find God, Himself.
Let's say you have never seen a pencil and are not sure such a thing
actually exists. It would be impossible to prove that it does not exist. To
prove that it does exist, all you need is to find evidence of its existence
such as a piece of paper which has been written on by a pencil or to
actually find the pencil. The same is true for God. His existence can be
proved by either evidence or direct contact but can never be disproved.
The irony here is that most atheist try to intimidate Christians by implying
their logic is more rational than the Christians while Christianity is
actually one of only two logical and rational belief systems and atheism is
completely irrational and illogical.
A common ploy of atheists is to state that the possible actions of God in
our lives and this planet as being ridiculous to intimidate Christians and
discredit their beliefs. The truth here is that, if it is possible for the
being, God, to exist, then it is also possible for this being to act in our
lives and this planet's functions such as weather. Therefore, it must also
be considered possible for such a being to influence our lives and the
physical functions of the planet for His reasons. This means that divine
intervention must be at least considered a reasonable and feasible
possibility. It also means that communications (visions), prophets
(teachers), and "miracles" must also be considered as a scientific
possibility since we could not possibly know what such a being can and
cannot do.
This is especially true when one considers the true definitions of some of
these things. For example, a prophesy is really nothing more than a being
telling us that He will do a certain thing which He may be very capable of
doing at some time in the future. This is like you telling a little child
that you will drive them to the zoo on some future day. The child is not
capable of driving himself to the zoo but you are. From the child's
perspective, this could easily be considered a prophesy especially if he had
never seen you drive. Does that mean it is foolish for the child to believe
that you can drive him to the zoo?
A Biblical prophet is really nothing more than a teacher or messenger sent
with a message or lesson from this being, God, to the people. We call such
people ambassadors and use them all of the time. Why is it ridiculous to
believe that a superior being would do the same thing?
Then there is the matter of a person being communicated to by God. I find it
mind boggling that people could possibly consider it ridiculous that a
superior being could communicate with us. If we can communicate with each
other, why isn't it possible that a superior being can also communicate with
us? Plus, it should be common sense that a superior being would not have to
be limited to our means of communications. Therefore, visions and other
forms of communications from a superior being should be considered possible
as long as the existence of such a being is possible.
Miracles are really things which we cannot do ourselves and cannot understan
d. Because we cannot do something, does that mean that a superior being
cannot do them? Of course not. We today can do many things which we could
not do just 30 years ago and, 100 years ago, would have been considered
miracles. It is only logical that a superior being should be able to do many
things which we cannot. Therefore, miracles must be considered possible as
long as it is possible for a superior being to exist.
This means that we must remain open minded to the possibility that the
"miracles" described in the Bible and Torah are scientifically possible
because we can never prove that a being capable of doing these things does
not or cannot exist. When properly evaluated, it turns out that the beliefs
of Christians and Jews are not as irrational as their adversaries would like
us to think. This becomes especially true when you consider the probability
analysis at the start of this site. We do have considerable evidence that
such a being really does exist.
Unfortunately, there have been and are still many people who take advantage
of such beliefs to create fraud. Therefore, we must be discerning about such
things while being at least open minded about these things being possible.
Because one or more people are frauds does not mean that the next person is
also a fraud. Each "miracle" should be evaluated individually.
http://hauns.com/~DCQu4E5g/Atheism.htm
--
The Atheist Fools Network
http://www.users.qwest.net/~araymond5/
"Few men are so obstinate in their atheism, that a pressing danger will not
compel them to acknowledgment of a divine power....."
Plato
"Atheism is a disease of the soul before it becomes an error of
understanding....."
Plato
"No one ever dies an atheist....."
Plato
_____________________________
Access Research Network
http://www.arn.org/
American Scientific Affiliation
http://www.asa3.org/
Answers in Genesis
http://www.answersingenesis.org/
Associates for Biblical Research
http://www.ChristianAnswers.net/abr/abrhome.html
Association of Christian Astronomers International
http://www.christian-astronomers.org/
Affiliation of Christian Geologists
http://www.wheaton.edu/ACG/
Center for Theology and the Natural Sciences
http://www.ctns.org/
Christian Geology Ministry
http://www.kjvbible.org/
.

User: "Mikey Brass"

Title: Re: The Religion of Atheism 19 May 2004 05:12:18 AM
"+Church of The Painful Truth+" <Atheistsare@fools.com> wrote in
news:5Vzqc.111$sw6.76706@news.uswest.net:

Therefore, evolutionists were forced to admit that it is
scientifically impossible to prove that God does not exist.

So you are calling Pope John Paul II, with the Roman Catholic Church
promotion Theistic Evolution, an atheist.
--
===========
Mikey Brass
MA in Archaeology student
"The Antiquity of Man" http://www.antiquityofman.com
Book: "The Antiquity of Man: Artifactual, fossil and gene records explored"
- "If we knew what we were doing, it wouldn't be called research, would
it?"
(Albert Einstein)
..
.

User: "Chris Thompson"

Title: Re: The Religion of Atheism 19 May 2004 09:23:37 AM
"+Church of The Painful Truth+" <Atheistsare@fools.com> wrote in
news:5Vzqc.111$sw6.76706@news.uswest.net:
snip
"Atheism is a religion."
"Atheism is stupid and bad."
Therefore....
Chris
--
"We are all capable of believing things which we know to be untrue, and
then, when we are finally proved wrong, impudently twisting the facts so
as to show that we were right. Intellectually, it is possible to carry
on this process for an indefinite time: the only check on it is that
sooner or later a false belief bumps up against solid reality, usually
on a battlefield." --George Orwell, 1946, "Under Your Nose"
.

User: "Mitch Alsup"

Title: Re: The Religion of Atheism 19 May 2004 02:58:01 PM
"+Church of The Painful Truth+" <Atheistsare@fools.com> wrote in message news:<5Vzqc.111$sw6.76706@news.uswest.net>...

On this page, I want to take a look at the logic errors in religion of
atheism.

Since when is atheism a religion? It has no services, worships no entities,
has not common tenets to hold members together (like a bible), and in general
does not operate, organize, or exist in any similar way as do religions.
Why do you think it is a religion? when it is a lack of religion!

When I am contacted by an atheist, the first thing I do is to find
out whether they are aware of the fact that it is impossible for science to
prove that God does not exist.

So, can you offer any modern evidence that can be captured with modern
measuring devices that shows that one or more gods actually exist?
Can any of these evidences demonstrate that it is your god that exist
and not his?
Is it not simpler to disbelieve until evidence shows up?
.

User: "Ross Langerak"

Title: Re: The Religion of Atheism 19 May 2004 04:25:25 AM
"+Church of The Painful Truth+" <Atheistsare@fools.com> wrote in message news:<5Vzqc.111$sw6.76706@news.uswest.net>...

On this page, I want to take a look at the logic errors in religion of
atheism. When I am contacted by an atheist, the first thing I do is to find
out whether they are aware of the fact that it is impossible for science to
prove that God does not exist. Most atheist are aware of this. At first,
people thought that evolution proved that God cannot exist but creation
scientists were more than glad to point out to us (I was still an
evolutionist at that time) that the best evolution can do is to MAKE IT
POSSIBLE for God to not exist. This is because the same God who can create
life could just as easily evolved it. As a matter of fact, Christians who
still believe in evolution believe this is what happened and increasing
numbers of evolutionists are turning to this concept or simply converting to
creation science.

Therefore, evolutionists were forced to admit that it is scientifically
impossible to prove that God does not exist. Unfortunately, to keep creation
scientists from a complete success, they added a lie to this truthful
statement. They say that it is impossible to prove that God does not exist
or that He does exist. I will cover the disproof for this lie later on this
page.

The reason I do this is to find out whether the person is simply ignorant of
this fact that it is impossible to prove that God does not exist or is
simply being irrational. If the person is just ignorant of this fact, then I
simply inform that person of the fact and explain it as much as necessary. I
then leave that person to decide for himself whether to reconsider his
belief in atheism or to stubbornly believe what he wants regardless of what
science says. That is his choice.

If the person is aware of this fact, then they are telling me they are being
irrational. This is because a logical and rational person only has two
possible belief systems when they are aware that it is impossible to
disprove the existence of God. The first is to remain open minded and
undecided concerning the existence of God until it is possible to prove such
a being could not exist which may be never. The other belief system is to
believe that such a being does exist because of the evidence.

For a person to believe that the being, God, does not exist when it is
impossible to prove that He does not exist is irrational because it will
always remain possible that the being, God, does exist. This requires that
all rational and logical people either believe in the being, God, because of
evidence or keep an open mind and be undecided about His possible existence.
Therefore, atheism is the most irrational and illogical religion on the
planet because it will always be possible that the being, God, exists.

To avoid this dilemma, atheist have added the lie that it is impossible to
prove the existence of God to the truth that it is impossible to disprove
the existence of God. Common sense should tell you that it is possible to
prove the existence of God in one of two ways. The first, is to find
evidence that God exists.

This would not be proof that God exists. There is no way to know that
a better explanation for the evidence won't be proposed at some later
date.

The second, is to find God, Himself.

How would you recognize him as God? God is usually described as being
omniscient. How would you test that? If he passed your test, how
would you know he wasn't just very, very knowledgable?
God is usually described as being omnipotent. How would you test
that? If he passed your test, how would you know he wasn't just very,
very powerful?


Let's say you have never seen a pencil and are not sure such a thing
actually exists. It would be impossible to prove that it does not exist. To
prove that it does exist, all you need is to find evidence of its existence
such as a piece of paper which has been written on by a pencil or to
actually find the pencil. The same is true for God. His existence can be
proved by either evidence or direct contact but can never be disproved.

There are many things that cannot be disproven. Does that mean that
we should believe in all of them?


The irony here is that most atheist try to intimidate Christians by implying
their logic is more rational than the Christians while Christianity is
actually one of only two logical and rational belief systems and atheism is
completely irrational and illogical.

You have yet to demonstrate either of these claims.

A common ploy of atheists is to state that the possible actions of God in
our lives and this planet as being ridiculous to intimidate Christians and
discredit their beliefs. The truth here is that, if it is possible for the
being, God, to exist, then it is also possible for this being to act in our
lives and this planet's functions such as weather. Therefore, it must also
be considered possible for such a being to influence our lives and the
physical functions of the planet for His reasons. This means that divine
intervention must be at least considered a reasonable and feasible
possibility. It also means that communications (visions), prophets
(teachers), and "miracles" must also be considered as a scientific
possibility since we could not possibly know what such a being can and
cannot do.

Amazing! You've assigned all of these attributes to God without ever
providing any evidence that he even exists.
I am an atheist because I do not believe that God exists. My lack of
belief is justified by the lack of evidence for the existence of a
supreme being. It isn't enough for you to point out that we cannot
prove that God doesn't exist, you must also provide evidence that he
does exist. Until you can do that, I have no reason to believe in
your deity, the rest of your post is irrelevant.
[snip]
.

User: "VoiceOfReason"

Title: Re: The Religion of Atheism 19 May 2004 05:58:43 PM
"+Church of The Painful Truth+" <Atheistsare@fools.com> wrote in message news:<5Vzqc.111$sw6.76706@news.uswest.net>...
Atheism is not a religion, you snivelling simpleton.
.
User: "+Church of The Painful Truth+"

Title: Re: The Religion of Atheism 19 May 2004 08:02:54 PM
"VoiceOfReason" <papa_fox57@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:6c4d0eab.0405191503.709e15ba@posting.google.com...

"+Church of The Painful Truth+" <Atheistsare@fools.com> wrote in message

news:<5Vzqc.111$sw6.76706@news.uswest.net>...


Atheism is not a religion, you snivelling simpleton.
RULES OF ATHEISM

1. "I'm right and you are wrong".
2. Never admit that you are wrong, even if you really are.
3. When you have nothing to say, hurl insults.
4. Regard and portray your own violence, whether physical, psychological,
or verbal, at all times as defensive
4a. Specific example for 4.: Cry for "freedom from religion", but whenever
followers of other faiths want the same freedom and courts agree, scream
"Persecution!"
5. Be prepared at all times to lie and bluster, particularly when backed
into a corner in an argument
5a. When caught lying, always accuse the opposition of lying rather than
be honest and admit the obvious
6. Never accept responsibility for any mess you have personally caused.
7. When you are forced to admit to an error, regard the whole process of
error and correction as part of atheisms failure for you and not as a
something for which you should apologise retract or make amends except
verbally and secretly to yourself
8. Always see yourself and you personal actions as part of no ones plans
for
the world. Recognise that even your errors are just part of being a
vertabrate monkey out of the premordial slugde
9.Profess humility but avoid the actual experience of it.
10.Refuse to take in information that differs from your own view and
oppose all such information through classification of such information in
a derogatory and simplistic manner(eg by categorising it as right wing
propaganda)
11.Refuse to accept that truth is not black and white; that reality is
complex and there are shades of grey
12.Refuse to forgive anyone else for anything because you have no moral
compass guiding you.
.
User: "David M. Cook"

Title: Re: The Religion of Atheism 20 May 2004 09:19:31 AM
In article <painful-cATqc.385$2S6.52880@news.uswest.net>, +Church of The
Painful Truth+ wrote:

1. "I'm right and you are wrong". [...]

Pretty accurate characterization of religious fanatics.
BTW, when do atheists get their tax exemption. Some UUs in Texas just had
theirs taken away!
Dave Cook
.
User: "Mitch Alsup"

Title: Re: The Religion of Atheism 20 May 2004 03:25:59 PM
"David M. Cook" <davecook@nowhere.net> wrote in message news:<slrncapfut.3sj.davecook@localhost.localdomain>...

BTW, when do atheists get their tax exemption. Some UUs in Texas just had
theirs taken away!

Dave Cook

My wife setup this organization: Austin Elthical Society--with a central tenet
that you don't have to believe in supernatural powers to treat everyone with
dignity and respect.
Some years ago, they applied for tax expemp status which would have amounted
to a burden on the state of some $12.35 per month (monthy mailing to 30 people).
Ronny Earle first granted said exemption and the next day withdrew when mss
Keyton (ne. Strayhorn) indicated that you can't be a religion in the state
of Texas without worshiping a supernatural entity (never mind Bhudists don't).
Since the UUs already are recongized and allow belief in any number of powers
they do not run afoul of Carolines versions of acceptable religions.
Ethical Society was first setup in New York around the turn of the previous
century, and is recognized in 17 states as a religious organization.
Ranny and Caroline have lost A) texas state court, B) texas court of appeals,
C) texas supreme court, and have now appealed to the US supreme Court. All
in the name of $12.35/month. Other than the extreme time involved, this is
little burden to the AES and rather humourous to the lesser involved (me).
.
User: "catshark"

Title: Re: The Religion of Atheism 21 May 2004 10:29:31 AM
On Thu, 20 May 2004 20:25:59 +0000 (UTC),
(Mitch Alsup)
wrote:

"David M. Cook" <davecook@nowhere.net> wrote in message news:<slrncapfut.3sj.davecook@localhost.localdomain>...

BTW, when do atheists get their tax exemption. Some UUs in Texas just had
theirs taken away!

Dave Cook


My wife setup this organization: Austin Elthical Society--with a central tenet
that you don't have to believe in supernatural powers to treat everyone with
dignity and respect.

Some years ago, they applied for tax expemp status which would have amounted
to a burden on the state of some $12.35 per month (monthy mailing to 30 people).
Ronny Earle first granted said exemption and the next day withdrew when mss
Keyton (ne. Strayhorn) indicated that you can't be a religion in the state
of Texas without worshiping a supernatural entity (never mind Bhudists don't).
Since the UUs already are recongized and allow belief in any number of powers
they do not run afoul of Carolines versions of acceptable religions.

Ethical Society was first setup in New York around the turn of the previous
century, and is recognized in 17 states as a religious organization.

Ranny and Caroline have lost A) texas state court, B) texas court of appeals,

The decision can be found here:
<http://www.3rdcoa.courts.state.tx.us/opinions/htmlopinion.asp?OpinionId=11583>

C) texas supreme court,

Which affirmed the above without a decision of its own.

and have now appealed to the US supreme Court. All
in the name of $12.35/month. Other than the extreme time involved, this is
little burden to the AES and rather humourous to the lesser involved (me).

Of course, the amount of money involved in your wife's particular case is
not all that is at stake. As the Texas court said:
The Legislature has provided that certain religious, educational,
and charitable groups are exempt from the franchise, sales and
use, and hotel taxes. (citations omitted). The Comptroller's
implementing administrative rules require that a group be
organized for the purpose of religious worship. (citations omitted)
Because exempt status is not favored by state law, any organization
seeking a tax exemption has the burden to show, without doubt, that
it meets the applicable requirements and any doubt regarding the
organization's qualifications will result in denial of the exemption.
(citations omitted). The Comptroller assesses each application
according to a non-exclusive set of factors set out in internal
agency documents, most of which are objective factors, including
whether the organization meets regularly for services, when and
where services are held, the approximate number of people attending
services, and whether the organization ordains clergy.
So far, all well and good. These are nothing more than reasonable indicies
to separate legitimate religions from (among others) the spate of tax
cheats in the 1970s and 80s who were trying to use mail-order divinity
degrees to set up private "religions" to avoid income taxes.
In addition, the Comptroller has apparently made an informal
determination, applied in this case, that an organization must meet
what we have called the Supreme Being test, requiring belief in a
"God, Gods, or higher power" in order to qualify for tax-exempt
status.
This Supreme Being requirement does not appear in the tax code or
the administrative code. From the documents contained in the record,
it appears that the Ethical Society met all of the objective
requirements contained within the Comptroller's internal memorandum:
among other things, it holds regular meetings, maintains a separate
bank account that profits no individual, and undertakes only
activities having to do with its congregational meetings. The Tax
Policy Group, based on the Ethical Society's application, granted
the exemption. It appears, then, that the Comptroller's decision was
based entirely on the determination that Ethical Culture does not
require belief in a Supreme Being.
The court essentially found that such a narrow "litmus test" is, on its
face, Constitutionally invalid because it is arbitrary and capricious:
Although the Ethical Society's tenets and beliefs may not explicitly
reference a divinity, they evidence enough of a sense of spiritual
feeling that the Society's claim to religious status should be
carefully assessed. The Comptroller's litmus test does not allow
for a closer assessment of the Ethical Society's claims and, because
it forecloses careful evaluation of the ways in which Ethical Humanism
may be more religious than personal, it violates the First Amendment.
Therefore, we hold that the Comptroller's reliance on a Supreme Being
litmus test to determine whether an organization qualifies as a
religion for purposes of the tax code is constitutionally infirm.
Having disposed of the Comptroller's test, the court then proceeds to
determine if the Ethical Society would meet a correct test for wether an
organization is a religion and evokes what is known as the "Malnak test":
The Malnak test gives a court the basis on which to determine whether
an unfamiliar religion is entitled to First Amendment protection by
comparing it to familiar religions. The test requires that a set of
beliefs: (1) address fundamental and ultimate questions having to do
with deep and imponderable matters such as the meaning of life and
death or man's role in the universe; (2) be broad in scope and
comprehensive in nature; and (3) be accompanied by the presence of
certain formal and external signs.
The "formal and external signs" aren't "signs from god" but those indicia
of religious organizations discussed above and which are not considered
dispositive in any case. The court found the Ethical Society met the
Malnak test.
Now all that is background for this: it seems clear to me that the
Comptroller's use of a belief in a supreme being as a litmus test for a
religion is doomed in any appeal to SCOTUS, as it is clearly improper.
Whether the Malnak test would be upheld is more questionable, but I can't
imagine any alternative being so significantly different as to exclude the
Ethical Society from being a religion for purposes of tax laws.
Does anyone know or has Carole Keeton Strayhorn made clear her personal
religious beliefs? The reason I ask is: it is just possible that she is
using her office to get SCOTUS to make a clear determination that ethical
humanism organizations are religious organizations in furtherance of
fundamentalist claims that "secular humanism" is a religion and that,
therefore, anything they want to tie to the tail of humanism, such as
evolutionary theory, can and must be banned from public schools.
Highly convoluted, I grant, but just because you're paranoid don't mean
someone ain't out to get you.

---------------
J. Pieret
---------------
Lawyers are like other people -- fools on the average;
but it is easier for an ***** to succeed in that trade than any other.
-- Mark Twain --
.
User: "David Jensen"

Title: Re: The Religion of Atheism 21 May 2004 04:58:47 PM
In alt.talk.creationism, catshark <catshark@yahoo.com> wrote in
<u55sa050e0rd1nkuf7i91h6bpt4pqc1hrb@4ax.com>:

On Thu, 20 May 2004 20:25:59 +0000 (UTC),

(Mitch Alsup)
wrote:

"David M. Cook" <davecook@nowhere.net> wrote in message news:<slrncapfut.3sj.davecook@localhost.localdomain>...

BTW, when do atheists get their tax exemption. Some UUs in Texas just had
theirs taken away!

Dave Cook


My wife setup this organization: Austin Elthical Society--with a central tenet
that you don't have to believe in supernatural powers to treat everyone with
dignity and respect.

Some years ago, they applied for tax expemp status which would have amounted
to a burden on the state of some $12.35 per month (monthy mailing to 30 people).
Ronny Earle first granted said exemption and the next day withdrew when mss
Keyton (ne. Strayhorn) indicated that you can't be a religion in the state
of Texas without worshiping a supernatural entity (never mind Bhudists don't).
Since the UUs already are recongized and allow belief in any number of powers
they do not run afoul of Carolines versions of acceptable religions.

Ethical Society was first setup in New York around the turn of the previous
century, and is recognized in 17 states as a religious organization.

Ranny and Caroline have lost A) texas state court, B) texas court of appeals,


The decision can be found here:
<http://www.3rdcoa.courts.state.tx.us/opinions/htmlopinion.asp?OpinionId=11583>

C) texas supreme court,


Which affirmed the above without a decision of its own.

and have now appealed to the US supreme Court. All
in the name of $12.35/month. Other than the extreme time involved, this is
little burden to the AES and rather humourous to the lesser involved (me).


Of course, the amount of money involved in your wife's particular case is
not all that is at stake. As the Texas court said:

The Legislature has provided that certain religious, educational,
and charitable groups are exempt from the franchise, sales and
use, and hotel taxes. (citations omitted). The Comptroller's
implementing administrative rules require that a group be
organized for the purpose of religious worship. (citations omitted)
Because exempt status is not favored by state law, any organization
seeking a tax exemption has the burden to show, without doubt, that
it meets the applicable requirements and any doubt regarding the
organization's qualifications will result in denial of the exemption.
(citations omitted). The Comptroller assesses each application
according to a non-exclusive set of factors set out in internal
agency documents, most of which are objective factors, including
whether the organization meets regularly for services, when and
where services are held, the approximate number of people attending
services, and whether the organization ordains clergy.

So far, all well and good. These are nothing more than reasonable indicies
to separate legitimate religions from (among others) the spate of tax
cheats in the 1970s and 80s who were trying to use mail-order divinity
degrees to set up private "religions" to avoid income taxes.

In addition, the Comptroller has apparently made an informal
determination, applied in this case, that an organization must meet
what we have called the Supreme Being test, requiring belief in a
"God, Gods, or higher power" in order to qualify for tax-exempt
status.

This Supreme Being requirement does not appear in the tax code or
the administrative code. From the documents contained in the record,
it appears that the Ethical Society met all of the objective
requirements contained within the Comptroller's internal memorandum:
among other things, it holds regular meetings, maintains a separate
bank account that profits no individual, and undertakes only
activities having to do with its congregational meetings. The Tax
Policy Group, based on the Ethical Society's application, granted
the exemption. It appears, then, that the Comptroller's decision was
based entirely on the determination that Ethical Culture does not
require belief in a Supreme Being.

The court essentially found that such a narrow "litmus test" is, on its
face, Constitutionally invalid because it is arbitrary and capricious:

Although the Ethical Society's tenets and beliefs may not explicitly
reference a divinity, they evidence enough of a sense of spiritual
feeling that the Society's claim to religious status should be
carefully assessed. The Comptroller's litmus test does not allow
for a closer assessment of the Ethical Society's claims and, because
it forecloses careful evaluation of the ways in which Ethical Humanism
may be more religious than personal, it violates the First Amendment.
Therefore, we hold that the Comptroller's reliance on a Supreme Being
litmus test to determine whether an organization qualifies as a
religion for purposes of the tax code is constitutionally infirm.

Having disposed of the Comptroller's test, the court then proceeds to
determine if the Ethical Society would meet a correct test for wether an
organization is a religion and evokes what is known as the "Malnak test":

The Malnak test gives a court the basis on which to determine whether
an unfamiliar religion is entitled to First Amendment protection by
comparing it to familiar religions. The test requires that a set of
beliefs: (1) address fundamental and ultimate questions having to do
with deep and imponderable matters such as the meaning of life and
death or man's role in the universe; (2) be broad in scope and
comprehensive in nature; and (3) be accompanied by the presence of
certain formal and external signs.

The "formal and external signs" aren't "signs from god" but those indicia
of religious organizations discussed above and which are not considered
dispositive in any case. The court found the Ethical Society met the
Malnak test.

Now all that is background for this: it seems clear to me that the
Comptroller's use of a belief in a supreme being as a litmus test for a
religion is doomed in any appeal to SCOTUS, as it is clearly improper.
Whether the Malnak test would be upheld is more questionable, but I can't
imagine any alternative being so significantly different as to exclude the
Ethical Society from being a religion for purposes of tax laws.

Does anyone know or has Carole Keeton Strayhorn made clear her personal
religious beliefs? The reason I ask is: it is just possible that she is
using her office to get SCOTUS to make a clear determination that ethical
humanism organizations are religious organizations in furtherance of
fundamentalist claims that "secular humanism" is a religion and that,
therefore, anything they want to tie to the tail of humanism, such as
evolutionary theory, can and must be banned from public schools.

Highly convoluted, I grant, but just because you're paranoid don't mean
someone ain't out to get you.

I don't follow her, but it seems that you attribute far more
intelligence to her than she has shown to this point. I'll bet on
religious bigot, it fits much better.
.
User: "Noelie S. Alito"

Title: Re: The Religion of Atheism 22 May 2004 06:27:37 AM
"David Jensen" <david@dajensen-family.com> wrote:

In alt.talk.creationism, catshark <catshark@yahoo.com> wrote in
<u55sa050e0rd1nkuf7i91h6bpt4pqc1hrb@4ax.com>:

On Thu, 20 May 2004 20:25:59 +0000 (UTC),

(Mitch Alsup)
wrote:

"David M. Cook" <davecook@nowhere.net> wrote in message

news:<slrncapfut.3sj.davecook@localhost.localdomain>...


BTW, when do atheists get their tax exemption. Some UUs in Texas just had
theirs taken away!

Dave Cook


My wife setup this organization: Austin Elthical Society--with a central tenet
that you don't have to believe in supernatural powers to treat everyone with
dignity and respect.

Some years ago, they applied for tax expemp status which would have amounted
to a burden on the state of some $12.35 per month (monthy mailing to 30 people).
Ronny Earle first granted said exemption and the next day withdrew when mss
Keyton (ne. Strayhorn) indicated that you can't be a religion in the state
of Texas without worshiping a supernatural entity (never mind Bhudists don't).
Since the UUs already are recongized and allow belief in any number of powers
they do not run afoul of Carolines versions of acceptable religions.

Ethical Society was first setup in New York around the turn of the previous
century, and is recognized in 17 states as a religious organization.

Ranny and Caroline have lost A) texas state court, B) texas court of appeals,


The decision can be found here:
<http://www.3rdcoa.courts.state.tx.us/opinions/htmlopinion.asp?OpinionId=11583>

C) texas supreme court,


Which affirmed the above without a decision of its own.

and have now appealed to the US supreme Court. All
in the name of $12.35/month. Other than the extreme time involved, this is
little burden to the AES and rather humourous to the lesser involved (me).


Of course, the amount of money involved in your wife's particular case is
not all that is at stake. As the Texas court said:

The Legislature has provided that certain religious, educational,
and charitable groups are exempt from the franchise, sales and
use, and hotel taxes. (citations omitted). The Comptroller's
implementing administrative rules require that a group be
organized for the purpose of religious worship. (citations omitted)
Because exempt status is not favored by state law, any organization
seeking a tax exemption has the burden to show, without doubt, that
it meets the applicable requirements and any doubt regarding the
organization's qualifications will result in denial of the exemption.
(citations omitted). The Comptroller assesses each application
according to a non-exclusive set of factors set out in internal
agency documents, most of which are objective factors, including
whether the organization meets regularly for services, when and
where services are held, the approximate number of people attending
services, and whether the organization ordains clergy.

So far, all well and good. These are nothing more than reasonable indicies
to separate legitimate religions from (among others) the spate of tax
cheats in the 1970s and 80s who were trying to use mail-order divinity
degrees to set up private "religions" to avoid income taxes.

In addition, the Comptroller has apparently made an informal
determination, applied in this case, that an organization must meet
what we have called the Supreme Being test, requiring belief in a
"God, Gods, or higher power" in order to qualify for tax-exempt
status.

This Supreme Being requirement does not appear in the tax code or
the administrative code. From the documents contained in the record,
it appears that the Ethical Society met all of the objective
requirements contained within the Comptroller's internal memorandum:
among other things, it holds regular meetings, maintains a separate
bank account that profits no individual, and undertakes only
activities having to do with its congregational meetings. The Tax
Policy Group, based on the Ethical Society's application, granted
the exemption. It appears, then, that the Comptroller's decision was
based entirely on the determination that Ethical Culture does not
require belief in a Supreme Being.

The court essentially found that such a narrow "litmus test" is, on its
face, Constitutionally invalid because it is arbitrary and capricious:

Although the Ethical Society's tenets and beliefs may not explicitly
reference a divinity, they evidence enough of a sense of spiritual
feeling that the Society's claim to religious status should be
carefully assessed. The Comptroller's litmus test does not allow
for a closer assessment of the Ethical Society's claims and, because
it forecloses careful evaluation of the ways in which Ethical Humanism
may be more religious than personal, it violates the First Amendment.
Therefore, we hold that the Comptroller's reliance on a Supreme Being
litmus test to determine whether an organization qualifies as a
religion for purposes of the tax code is constitutionally infirm.

Having disposed of the Comptroller's test, the court then proceeds to
determine if the Ethical Society would meet a correct test for wether an
organization is a religion and evokes what is known as the "Malnak test":

The Malnak test gives a court the basis on which to determine whether
an unfamiliar religion is entitled to First Amendment protection by
comparing it to familiar religions. The test requires that a set of
beliefs: (1) address fundamental and ultimate questions having to do
with deep and imponderable matters such as the meaning of life and
death or man's role in the universe; (2) be broad in scope and
comprehensive in nature; and (3) be accompanied by the presence of
certain formal and external signs.

The "formal and external signs" aren't "signs from god" but those indicia
of religious organizations discussed above and which are not considered
dispositive in any case. The court found the Ethical Society met the
Malnak test.

Now all that is background for this: it seems clear to me that the
Comptroller's use of a belief in a supreme being as a litmus test for a
religion is doomed in any appeal to SCOTUS, as it is clearly improper.
Whether the Malnak test would be upheld is more questionable, but I can't
imagine any alternative being so significantly different as to exclude the
Ethical Society from being a religion for purposes of tax laws.

Does anyone know or has Carole Keeton Strayhorn made clear her personal
religious beliefs? The reason I ask is: it is just possible that she is
using her office to get SCOTUS to make a clear determination that ethical
humanism organizations are religious organizations in furtherance of
fundamentalist claims that "secular humanism" is a religion and that,
therefore, anything they want to tie to the tail of humanism, such as
evolutionary theory, can and must be banned from public schools.

Highly convoluted, I grant, but just because you're paranoid don't mean
someone ain't out to get you.


I don't follow her, but it seems that you attribute far more
intelligence to her than she has shown to this point. I'll bet on
religious bigot, it fits much better.

The cynic in me must point out that these actions also correspond to
those of a rather big-name politician in Texas who knows how to
make a calculating play to the electorship who'll have no truck with
any librul, hippiefied attempt at tax exemption. As chief Bean
Counter in the midst of budget battles this is one of the few venues
where she can get the attention of the individual voters.
The question remains, of course, as to whether Satanism is tax-exempt.
Noelie
--
"Rhyming with 'goalie' for over 44 years."
.
User: "Andrew Arensburger"

Title: Re: The Religion of Atheism 24 May 2004 02:59:09 PM
In talk.origins Noelie S. Alito <noelie@deadspam.com> wrote:

The question remains, of course, as to whether Satanism is tax-exempt.

Why not? Isn't it just a Christian sect? (Or twelve. I
wouldn't be surprised if there were schisms, and the Reformed Church
of Satan refused to speak to the First Unholy Church of Satan.)
--
Andrew Arensburger, Systems guy University of Maryland
arensb.no-bloody-spam@umd.edu Office of Information Technology
You're stupid if you get hit by a car after the apocalypse.
.
User: "Walter Bushell"

Title: Re: The Religion of Atheism 26 May 2004 10:55:41 PM
In article <c8tkm3$p04$1@grapevine.wam.umd.edu>,
Andrew Arensburger <arensb.no-bloody-spam@umd.edu> wrote:

In talk.origins Noelie S. Alito <noelie@deadspam.com> wrote:

The question remains, of course, as to whether Satanism is tax-exempt.


Why not? Isn't it just a Christian sect? (Or twelve. I
wouldn't be surprised if there were schisms, and the Reformed Church
of Satan refused to speak to the First Unholy Church of Satan.)

Well there is a question as to whether some forms of Satanism have a
deity at all.
.


User: "catshark"

Title: Re: The Religion of Atheism 22 May 2004 07:55:07 AM
On Sat, 22 May 2004 11:27:37 +0000 (UTC), "Noelie S. Alito"
<noelie@deadspam.com> wrote:
[...]

Now all that is background for this: it seems clear to me that the
Comptroller's use of a belief in a supreme being as a litmus test for a
religion is doomed in any appeal to SCOTUS, as it is clearly improper.
Whether the Malnak test would be upheld is more questionable, but I can't
imagine any alternative being so significantly different as to exclude the
Ethical Society from being a religion for purposes of tax laws.

Does anyone know or has Carole Keeton Strayhorn made clear her personal
religious beliefs? The reason I ask is: it is just possible that she is
using her office to get SCOTUS to make a clear determination that ethical
humanism organizations are religious organizations in furtherance of
fundamentalist claims that "secular humanism" is a religion and that,
therefore, anything they want to tie to the tail of humanism, such as
evolutionary theory, can and must be banned from public schools.

Highly convoluted, I grant, but just because you're paranoid don't mean
someone ain't out to get you.


I don't follow her, but it seems that you attribute far more
intelligence to her than she has shown to this point. I'll bet on
religious bigot, it fits much better.


The cynic in me must point out that these actions also correspond to
those of a rather big-name politician in Texas who knows how to
make a calculating play to the electorship who'll have no truck with
any librul, hippiefied attempt at tax exemption. As chief Bean
Counter in the midst of budget battles this is one of the few venues
where she can get the attention of the individual voters.

And, unlike Judge Moore, she doesn't even have to risk her job.


The question remains, of course, as to whether Satanism is tax-exempt.

Heh. It would be delicious if there was a coven in Texas willing to test
it. If she tried to deny them tax exemption, it would completely spike her
arguments for her litmus test. If she didn't, she and the State of Texas
would be on record as holding that Satanism is legally equal to
Chistianity.
---------------
J. Pieret
---------------
A concise definition of legal ethics:
" . . . having been bought a lawyer is supposed to stay bought."
-- Louann Miller --
.








User: "Hank"

Title: Re: The Religion of Atheism 19 May 2004 12:19:17 PM
+Church of The Festering Bigot+ wrote:
Same old inane drivel.
--
Assimilate a pitiful little species like you? I think not! - Q of Borg
.

User: "Eric Root"

Title: Re: The Religion of Atheism 19 May 2004 12:55:54 PM
+Church of The Painful Truth+ wrote:
(snip boring old re-run that is just as much BS as when he posted it a month ago.)
.
User: "+Church of The Painful Truth+"

Title: Re: The Religion of Atheism 19 May 2004 08:02:47 PM
"Eric Root" <eroot@swva.net> wrote in message
news:40ABA170.9040904@swva.net...

+Church of The Painful Truth+ wrote:


(snip boring old re-run that is just as much BS as when he posted it a

month ago.)

RULES OF ATHEISM

1. "I'm right and you are wrong".
2. Never admit that you are wrong, even if you really are.
3. When you have nothing to say, hurl insults.
4. Regard and portray your own violence, whether physical, psychological,
or verbal, at all times as defensive
4a. Specific example for 4.: Cry for "freedom from religion", but whenever
followers of other faiths want the same freedom and courts agree, scream
"Persecution!"
5. Be prepared at all times to lie and bluster, particularly when backed
into a corner in an argument
5a. When caught lying, always accuse the opposition of lying rather than
be honest and admit the obvious
6. Never accept responsibility for any mess you have personally caused.
7. When you are forced to admit to an error, regard the whole process of
error and correction as part of atheisms failure for you and not as a
something for which you should apologise retract or make amends except
verbally and secretly to yourself
8. Always see yourself and you personal actions as part of no ones plans
for
the world. Recognise that even your errors are just part of being a
vertabrate monkey out of the premordial slugde
9.Profess humility but avoid the actual experience of it.
10.Refuse to take in information that differs from your own view and
oppose all such information through classification of such information in
a derogatory and simplistic manner(eg by categorising it as right wing
propaganda)
11.Refuse to accept that truth is not black and white; that reality is
complex and there are shades of grey
12.Refuse to forgive anyone else for anything because you have no moral
compass guiding you.
.


User: "Jon Hansen"

Title: Re: The Religion of Atheism 19 May 2004 11:59:30 PM
While I admire you zeal, you are clearly not very wise trying to insult
everybody in this group. Jesus preached fire and brimstone only towards
those who called themselves religious leaders, not towards the unsaved. Get
a life and find a street corner, please. Soapboxes are much easier to find
in the real world than in cyberspace.
Jon
.
User: "Robibnikoff"

Title: Re: The Religion of Atheism 20 May 2004 07:57:59 AM
In article <10aof7pmc9minbe@corp.supernews.com>, Jon Hansen says...


While I admire you zeal, you are clearly not very wise trying to insult
everybody in this group. Jesus preached fire and brimstone only towards
those who called themselves religious leaders, not towards the unsaved. Get
a life and find a street corner, please. Soapboxes are much easier to find
in the real world than in cyberspace.

What are you responding to?
Robyn
Resident Witchypoo & EAC Spellcaster
#1557
.



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