| Topic: |
Religions > Atheism |
| User: |
"johac" |
| Date: |
10 Mar 2007 07:13:25 PM |
| Object: |
The Theocrats are Coming! The Theocrats are Coming! |
To a statehouse near you.
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The Theocratic Agenda Is Heading for a Statehouse Near You
By Rob Boston, Church and State
Posted on March 10, 2007, Printed on March 10, 2007
http://www.alternet.org/story/48977/
Utah seems like a strange state to experiment with voucher subsidies for
religious and other private schools.
Politically and culturally, the Beehive State is dominated by the Church
of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints (Mormons). Seventy percent of the
state's residents belong to the church. Most Mormons are content to send
their children to public schools, where they are often released during
the school day for religious instruction offsite. There aren't even many
private schools in Utah.
Yet last month, the Utah legislature fast-tracked a sweeping voucher
bill. It whipped through the House and Senate and was quickly signed by
Gov. John Huntsman Jr. The measure contains no income cap and would
offer vouchers ranging from $500 to $3,000 to virtually every student in
the state. Regulation is light: Participating schools would have to
enroll at least 40 students, provide results of standardized tests and
submit to an outside audit once every four years.
What happened? Voucher opponents say it all boils down to one acronym:
ALEC.
The letters stand for American Legislative Exchange Council. This
shadowy, but well-funded organization of libertarian-oriented business
interests, put Utah under a full-court press.
The Salt Lake Tribune outlined ALEC's strategy recently: "Gather
lawmakers in one place (with taxpayer subsidies), establish first-name
relationships, then hand out 'model' legislation co-written by -- guess
who? -- corporate America."
The newspaper quoted Alan Rosenthal, Rutgers University professor of
public policy, who said, "From the point of view of the corporations,
they have devised themselves an extremely effective organization." (The
group's budget is $6 million annually.)
The Tribune noted that Utah Senate Majority Leader Curt Bramble
(R-Provo) is the state chairman for ALEC and that he traveled, on the
taxpayers' dime, to ALEC functions in Chicago, Texas, San Francisco and
Washington in 2005 and 2006.
Utah isn't the only state that faces a high-stakes battle over vouchers
this year. Similar battles are brewing in Georgia, Texas and other
states. These bills are examples of a new wave of attacks on separation
of church and state in state legislatures.
The assaults are by no means limited to efforts to aid religious
education. Other bills focus on issues like religion in public schools,
controversies related to marriage, the display of religious symbols by
government and the teaching of "intelligent design" creationism in
public schools.
The spate of new state-based attacks on church-state separation is a
stark reminder that the fight to maintain the wall of separation between
church and state never ends. The outlook in Congress might be brighter
in light of recent political changes, but many states remain roiling
cauldrons of controversy.
"The states are always wildcards," said Rachel Joseph Marah, who has
been monitoring legislative activity all over the country for Americans
United. "Bills can pop up and begin moving with little notice. We always
have to be on guard."
A recent survey by Americans United found bills threatening the
separation of church and state pending in a number of states. A round-up
follows:
<continues at website.>
---
http://www.alternet.org/module/printversion/48977
--
John #1782
"We should always be disposed to believe that which appears to us to be
white is really black, if the hierarchy of the church so decides."
- Saint Ignatius Loyola (1491-1556) Founder of the Jesuit Order.
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: The Theocrats are Coming! The Theocrats are Coming! |
16 Mar 2007 06:39:15 AM |
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johac wrote:
johac: "(The Theocrats are coming)...To a statehouse near you.
The Theocratic Agenda Is Heading for a Statehouse Near You
By Rob Boston, Church and State
Posted on March 10, 2007, Printed on March 10, 2007http://
www.alternet.org/story/48977/
Utah seems like a strange state to experiment with voucher subsidies for
religious and other private schools.
Politically and culturally, the Beehive State is dominated by the Church
of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints (Mormons). Seventy percent of the
state's residents belong to the church. Most Mormons are content to send
their children to public schools, where they are often released during
theschoolday for religious instruction offsite. There aren't even many
private schools in Utah.
Yet last month, the Utah legislature fast-tracked a sweeping voucher
bill. It whipped through the House and Senate and was quickly signed by
Gov. John Huntsman Jr. The measure contains no income cap and would
offervouchersranging from $500 to $3,000 to virtually every student in
the state. Regulation is light: Participating schools would have to
enroll at least 40 students, provide results of standardized tests and
submit to an outside audit once every four years.
What happened? Voucher opponents say it all boils down to one acronym:
ALEC.
Discussion deleted...
Typical. Americans United was established to maintain the current
State-monopoly school system. They represent school vouchers as a
Constitutional issue. Until there's a change on the Supreme Court,
they and their NEA masters lose that argument.
Here's Clarence Thomas, for the majority, in the case Mitchell versus
Helms:
USSC Mitchell v. Helm (2000-06-28).
"We have viewed as significant whether the 'private choices of
individual parents,' as opposed to the 'unmediated' will of government
determine what schools ultimately benefit from the governmental aid,
and how much."
"For if numerous private choices, rather than the single choice of a
government, determine the distribution of aid pursuant to neutral
eligibility criteria, then a government cannot, or at least cannot
easily, grant special favors that might lead to a religious
establishment."
Here's Justice O'Connor, concurring, in Mitchell versus Helm (USSC V
530, 2000): "when government aid supports a school's religious mission
only because of independent decisions made by numerous individuals to
guide their secular aid to that school, "[n]o reasonable observer is
likely to draw from the facts . . .an inference that the State itself
is endorsing a religious practice or belief. Witters, supra, at 493
(O'Connor, J., concurring in part and concurring in judgment). Rather,
endorsement of the religious message is reasonably attributed to the
individuals who select the path of the aid."
The author "johac" cites represents Utah's voucher legislation as a
"theocon" initiative, when ALEC is a market-oriented organization.
Why is the State (government, generally) in the education business at
all?
The education industry is not a natural monopoly, and beyond a very
low level there are no economies of scale at the delivery end of the
educaton industry as it currently operates. "Natural monopoly" and
"economies of scale" are two usual welfare-economic arguments for
State operation of an industry. Even where an industry qualifies as a
natural monoploy or exhibits significant economies of scale, the
argument for State operation is not decisive. In any case, the
education industry is not a natural monopoly and, beyond a very low
level, does not exhibit significant economies of scale as it currently
operates. Education only marginally qualifies as a "public good" as
economists use the term, and the "public goods" argument implies
subsidy and regulation, at most, not State operation of an industry.
Across countries and across industries, monopolies deliver wretched
goods and services at high cost, relative to competitive markets.
Subsidized goods are over-consumed. A State-subsidized monopoly is a
recipe for over-consumption of shoddy goods. It does not take twelve
years to teach a normal child to read and compute. The tax-subsidized
US K-12 school system originated in anti-Catholic bigotry and survives
on determined lobbying by the NEA/AFT/AFSCME cartel, through direct
political action and through front groups like Americans United for
the Separation of Church and State and People for the American Way,
and through paid shills who participate in various forums.
"Public education" has become a make-work program for dues-paying
members of the NEA/AFT/AFSCME cartel, a source of padded contracts for
politically-connected insiders, a source of campaign support for
compliant politicians, and a venue for State-worshiphul
indoctrination. If this is not so, why cannot any student take, at any
age, an exit exam (the GED will do) and apply the taxpayers' K-12
education subsidy toward post-secondary tuition at any VA-approved
post-secondary institution or toward a wage subsidy at a qualified
(say, has filed W-2 forms on at least three employees for at least the
previous four years) private-sector employer?
Please read this one page Marvin Minsky comment on school.
http://www.rru.com/~meo/hs.minski.html
This article on artificially extended adolescence by Ted Kolderie.
http://www.educationevolving.org/pdf/Adolescence.pdf
E.G. West, "Education Vouchers in Principle and Practice: A Survey",
The World Bank Research Observer. http://www.worldbank.org/research/journals/wbro/obsfeb97/educate.htm
E.G. West on the history of compulsory attendance.
http://www.ncl.ac.uk/egwest/pdfs/economics%20of%20compulsion.pdf
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| User: "Al Klein" |
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| Title: Re: The Theocrats are Coming! The Theocrats are Coming! |
16 Mar 2007 10:03:49 PM |
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On 16 Mar 2007 04:39:15 -0700, wrote:
Here's Clarence Thomas, for the majority, in the case Mitchell versus
Helms:
USSC Mitchell v. Helm (2000-06-28).
"We have viewed as significant whether the 'private choices of
individual parents,' as opposed to the 'unmediated' will of government
determine what schools ultimately benefit from the governmental aid,
and how much."
So the government would be within the law to give every adult money to
donate to the religious or non-religious organization of his/her
choice, as long as it was the recipient who decided where the money
went? But with the firm understanding that it could be used for
religious purposes?
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: The Theocrats are Coming! The Theocrats are Coming! |
16 Mar 2007 10:17:39 PM |
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Al Klein wrote:
malcolmkirkpatrick wrote:
(malcolm): "Here's Clarence Thomas, for the majority, in the case
Mitchell versus
Helms:..."
"USSC Mitchell v. Helm (2000-06-28)."
"We have viewed as significant whether the 'private choices of
individual parents,' as opposed to the 'unmediated' will of government
determine what schools ultimately benefit from the governmental aid,
and how much."
(Al Klein): "So the government would be within the law to give every
adult money to donate to the religious or non-religious organization
of his/her choice, as long as it was the recipient who decided where
the money went? But with the firm understanding that it could be used
for religious purposes?"
Why "So? I don't see that Al Klein's proposal follows at all from
what Justice Thomas wrote. Sounds like Al Klein's proposal would
constitute an unConstitutional subsidy to religion. What's the
required public purpose? In the case of school vouchers, it's
education.
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| User: "Al Klein" |
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| Title: Re: The Theocrats are Coming! The Theocrats are Coming! |
17 Mar 2007 05:30:50 PM |
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On 16 Mar 2007 20:17:39 -0700, wrote:
[attributions patched so normal people can follow the post]
Al Klein wrote:
malcolmkirkpatrick wrote:
Here's Clarence Thomas, for the majority, in the case
Mitchell versus Helms:...
USSC Mitchell v. Helm (2000-06-28).
"We have viewed as significant whether the 'private choices of
individual parents,' as opposed to the 'unmediated' will of government
determine what schools ultimately benefit from the governmental aid,
and how much."
So the government would be within the law to give every
adult money to donate to the religious or non-religious organization
of his/her choice, as long as it was the recipient who decided where
the money went? But with the firm understanding that it could be used
for religious purposes?
Why So? I don't see that Al Klein's proposal follows at all from
what Justice Thomas wrote. Sounds like Al Klein's proposal would
constitute an unConstitutional subsidy to religion. What's the
required public purpose? In the case of school vouchers, it's
education.
In the case of school vouchers used to obtain a religious "education",
it's religion. If the brakes are broken you don't make things better
by replacing the fuzzy dice, which is what vouchers are doing. Public
education is broken so indoctrinate the kids in religion. How does
teaching them creationism fix a school system that can't teach science
adequately?
Hint: It doesn't. Vouchers don't fix the problem, they USE the
problem to break something else.
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: The Theocrats are Coming! The Theocrats are Coming! |
18 Mar 2007 10:25:53 PM |
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Al Klein wrote:...
malcolmkirkpatrick wrote:...
(malcolm): "Here's Clarence Thomas, for the majority, in the case
Mitchell versus Helms:...
USSC Mitchell v. Helm (2000-06-28).
"We have viewed as significant whether the 'private choices of
individual parents,' as opposed to the 'unmediated' will of government
determine what schools ultimately benefit from the governmental aid,
and how much."
(Al Klein): "So the government would be within the law to give every
adult money to donate to the religious or non-religious organization
of his/her choice, as long as it was the recipient who decided where
the money went? But with the firm understanding that it could be used
for religious purposes?
(malcolm): "Why So? I don't see that Al Klein's proposal follows at
all from
what Justice Thomas wrote. Sounds like Al Klein's proposal would
constitute an unConstitutional subsidy to religion. What's the
required public purpose? In the case of school vouchers, it's
education.
(Al Klein): "In the case of school vouchers used to obtain a religious
"education",
it's religion. If the brakes are broken you don't make things better
by replacing the fuzzy dice, which is what vouchers are doing. Public
education is broken so indoctrinate the kids in religion. How does
teaching them creationism fix a school system that can't teach science
adequately? Hint: It doesn't. Vouchers don't fix the problem, they
USE the problem to break something else."
School vouchers no more subsidize religion than nutrition vouchers
(Food Stamps) subsidize religion. An orthodox Jew can buy a kosher
diet with food stamps.
Gerard Lassibile and Lucia Navarro Gomez, ["Organization and
Efficiency of Educational Systems: some empirical findings", pg. 16,
__Comparative Education__, Vol. 36 #1, 2000, Feb.]
"Furthermore, the regression results indicate that countries where
private education is more widespread perform significantly better than
countries where it is more limited. The result showing the private
sector to be more efficient is similar to those found in other
contexts with individual data (see, for example, Psucharopoulos, 1987;
Jiminez, et. al, 1991).
This finding should convince countries to reconsider policies that
reduce the role of the private sector in the field of education".
See also...
Joshua Angrist, "Randomized Trials and Quasi-Experiments in Education
Research",___NBER Reporter___, summer, 2003.
http://www.nber.org/reporter/summer03/angrist.html
Take care. Homeschool if you can.
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| User: "Al Klein" |
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| Title: Re: The Theocrats are Coming! The Theocrats are Coming! |
19 Mar 2007 07:51:05 AM |
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On 18 Mar 2007 20:25:53 -0700, wrote:
School vouchers no more subsidize religion than nutrition vouchers
(Food Stamps) subsidize religion. An orthodox Jew can buy a kosher
diet with food stamps.
Non-Jews also buy kosher food (check the labels of the food you buy -
much of it is certified kosher - the can of Star-Kist tuna I'm looking
at is). Non-Jews don't teach their kids to pray to the Jewish god.
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: The Theocrats are Coming! The Theocrats are Coming! |
19 Mar 2007 10:00:10 AM |
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Al Klein wrote:
malcolmkirkpatrick wrote:
(malcolm): "School vouchers no more subsidize religion than nutrition
vouchers
(Food Stamps) subsidize religion. An orthodox Jew can buy a kosher
diet with food stamps.
(Al Klein): "Non-Jews also buy kosher food (check the labels of the
food you buy; much of it is certified kosher-the can of Star-Kist tuna
I'm looking at is). Non-Jews don't teach their kids to pray to the
Jewish god.
Non-Catholics send kids to Catholic schools; non-Lutherans send kids
to Lutheran schools; non-Baptists send kids to Baptist schools.
The current structure of the US pre-college education industry is an
artifact of the policy which restricts each parent's options for the
use of the taxpayers' pre-college education subsidy to schools
operated by State (government, generally) employees. This policy
originated in anti-Catholic bigotry in the early decades of the 19th
century and survives through dedicated lobbying by current recipients
of the tax-generated $500 billion+/year K-12 dedicated revenue stream.
The result is a three-sector market, with expensive State-subsidized
("free") schools operated by dues-paying members of the NEA/AFT/AFSCME
cartel, high-end, exclusive independent schools, and low-cost
parochial schools. Since low-tuition, unsubsidized schools cannot
compete on salary with the subsidized schools of the NEA/AFT/AFSCME
cartel, their staff must take part of their compensation in "psychic"
income; they're doing the lord's work.
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