| Topic: |
Religions > Atheism |
| User: |
"LionOfJudah" |
| Date: |
24 Sep 2003 06:51:56 PM |
| Object: |
The truth about "God" |
The word "God" was actually an invention of an evil mind to scare and
subjugate fearful and supersitious tribes to succumb to his will. And think
about this...has there really ever been any other word besides "God" for
which has been the sole cause of so much hatred and slaughter throught the
history of humanity?
Unfortunately, as time passed it became unthinkable to try to instill into
the minds of religious people all over the world that "God" is a liar and a
deceiver. That's blasphemy. However their own scriptures prove this to be
the case.
Here we see "God" praising the son of his high priest for thrusting a
javelin through the belly of both a man and a woman who no longer desired to
worship him :
Numbers:25:3: And Israel joined himself unto Baal-peor: and the anger of the
LORD was kindled against Israel.
4: And the LORD said unto Moses, Take all the heads of the people, and hang
them up before the LORD against the sun, that the fierce anger of the LORD
may be turned away from Israel.
5: And Moses said unto the judges of Israel, Slay ye every one his men that
were joined unto Baal-peor.
6: And, behold, one of the children of Israel came and brought unto his
brethren a Midianitish woman in the sight of Moses, and in the sight of all
the congregation of the children of Israel, who were weeping before the door
of the tabernacle of the congregation.
7: And when Phinehas, the son of Eleazar, the son of Aaron the priest, saw
it, he rose up from among the congregation, and took a javelin in his hand;
8: And he went after the man of Israel into the tent, and thrust both of
them through, the man of Israel, and the woman through her belly. So the
plague was stayed from the children of Israel.
9: And those that died were twenty and four thousand.
10: And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying,
11: Phinehas, the son of Eleazar, the son of Aaron the priest, hath turned
my wrath away from the children of Israel, while he was zealous for my sake
among them, that I consumed not the children of Israel in my jealousy.
Here we see "God" ordering Moses to stone a man to death simply for
gathering sticks on what is supposed to be a holy day the sabbath. There's
nothing holy about a day for which people who don't care to observe it are
murdered :
Numbers:15:32: And while the children of Israel were in the wilderness, they
found a man that gathered sticks upon the sabbath day.
33: And they that found him gathering sticks brought him unto Moses and
Aaron, and unto all the congregation.
34: And they put him in ward, because it was not declared what should be
done to him.
35: And the LORD said unto Moses, The man shall be surely put to death: all
the congregation shall stone him with stones without the camp.
36: And all the congregation brought him without the camp, and stoned him
with stones, and he died; as the LORD commanded Moses.
When they asked Christ if he is the Son of God, he refused to say "I am" but
preferred to answer instead "That's what you say I am."
Luke:22:70: Then said they all, Art thou then the Son of God? And he said
unto them, Ye say that I am.
Matthew:26:63: But Jesus held his peace. And the high priest answered and
said unto him, I adjure thee by the living God, that thou tell us whether
thou be the Christ, the Son of God.
64: Jesus saith unto him, *Thou hast said*: *nevertheless I say* unto you,
Hereafter shall ye see the *Son of man* sitting on the right hand of power,
and coming in the clouds of heaven.
Christ prefers call himself the Son of man rather than Son of God. However,
he also acknowledges that with such religious people such as the Jews who
fear the wrath of their God if they don't worship him or believe in him,
Christ had to work with their beliefs so rather than tell them their God is
the Evil One, which would have ended his mission before it began, the
unsurpassed wisom dictated that he should give them a "God" worthy of their
devotions and worship and obedience. So he told them :
John:8:54: Jesus answered, If I honour myself, my honour is nothing: *it is
my Father* that honoureth me; *of whom ye say*, that *he is your God*:
Because Christ knew they believed their God to be "greater than all" and
Jesus knew that of his Father :
John:10:29: My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man
is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.
Who is the Father that Christ refers to? It isn't the same "God" of the Old
Testament who ordered his prophets to kill and murder women and children.
Because Christ says :
Luke:6:35: But love ye your enemies, and do good, and lend, hoping for
nothing again; and your reward shall be great, and ye shall be the children
of the Highest: for *he is kind* unto the unthankful and to the evil.
The only time Jesus was questioned about being the Son of someone which he
did positively confirm, was when he was asked if he is the Son of the
Blessed One :
Mark:14:61: But he held his peace, and answered nothing. Again the high
priest asked him, and said unto him, Art thou the Christ, the Son of the
Blessed One?
62: And Jesus said, *I am*: and ye shall see the Son of man sitting on the
right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.
This is the same chronological event as Matt:26:63-64 above, the only
difference here being that the question is phrased differerntly and also the
answer Jesus gives is a positive confirmation, and not the doubletalk as in
also Luke:22:70.
So then what's the difference between "Son of the Blessed One" and "Son of
God" ?
It's the same difference between the Buddha not referring to himself as God,
but rather as the Blessed One.
It also just happens that the Buddha gave the title "Son of the Blessed One"
to the disciple who was unsurpassed in wisdom apart from the Buddha himself,
Sariputta.
Jesus and his dicsiples also gave many clues to show that the God of the Old
Testament isn't his Father, for example :
1John:1:5: This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare
unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all.
OT-Isaiah:45:3: And I will give thee the treasures of darkness, and hidden
riches of secret places, that thou mayest know that I, the LORD, which call
thee by thy name, am the God of Israel.
OT-Genesis:17:13: He that is born in thy house, and he that is bought with
thy money, *must needs be circumcised*: and my covenant shall be *in your
flesh* for an *everlasting covenant*.
14 And the uncircumcised man child *whose flesh of his foreskin is not
circumcised*, *that soul shall be cut off* from his people; he hath *broken
my covenant*.
Galations:5:2: Behold, I Paul say unto you, that *if ye be circumcised*,
*Christ shall profit you nothing*.
Titus:1:10: For there are many unruly and vain talkers and *deceivers*,
*specially they of the circumcision*:
John:6:63: It is the spirit that quickeneth; *the flesh profiteth nothing*.
OT-Deuteronomy:6:13: Thou shalt fear the LORD thy God, and serve him, and
shalt *swear by his name*.
Matthew:5:34: But I say unto you, *Swear not at all*; neither by heaven; for
it is God's throne:
37: But let your communication be, Yea, yea; Nay, nay: for whatsoever is
more than these *cometh of evil*.
James:5:12: But *above all things*, my brethren, *swear not*, neither by
heaven, neither by the earth, neither by any other oath: but let your yea be
yea; and your nay, nay; *lest ye fall into condemnation*.
Then there are these 'encoded' references Christ made to Israel :
Mark:2:17: When Jesus heard it, he saith unto them, They that are whole have
no need of the physician, but *they that are sick*: I came not to call the
righteous, but *sinners to repentance*.
Matthew:15:24: But he answered and said, I am *not sent but* unto the lost
sheep of *the house of Israel*.
Matthew:9:33: And when *the devil was cast out*, the dumb spake: and the
multitudes marvelled, saying, *It was never so seen in Israel*.
Matthew:8:10: When Jesus heard it, he marvelled, and said to them that
followed, Verily I say unto you, I have not found *so great faith*, no, *not
in Israel*.
Luke:7:9: When Jesus heard these things, he marvelled at him, and turned him
about, and said unto the people that followed him, I say unto you, I have
not found *so great faith*, no, *not in Israel*.
Acts:2:36: Therefore let *all the house of Israel* know assuredly, that God
hath made that same Jesus, whom *ye have crucified*, both Lord and Christ.
Acts:5:31: Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a
Saviour, for *to give repentance to Israel*, and forgiveness of sins.
Romans:9:27: Esaias also crieth concerning Israel, Though the number of the
children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, a remnant shall be saved.
Romans:10:1: Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is,
that they might be saved.
Not to mention what Jesus said to the Jews :
John:8:44: Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye
will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth,
because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his
own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.
So whenever Jesus uses the term "God" he means his Father, but he still
preferred to use the term Father rather than God.
That Jesus is the Son of God is a myth, especially since some people believe
of that same God that he ordered his prophet Moses to kill those who did not
worship him.
However, it says clearly in the NT gospel :
2Corinthians:3:12: Seeing then that we have such hope, we use great
plainness of speech:
13: And *not as Moses*, *which put a vail over his face*, that *the children
of Israel could not stedfastly look to the end* of that which is abolished:
14: *But their minds were blinded* : for *until this day* remaineth the same
vail *untaken away in the reading of the old testament* ; which vail is done
away in Christ.
15: But even *unto this day*, when Moses is read, *the vail is upon their
heart*.
16: Nevertheless when it shall turn to the Lord, the vail shall be taken
away.
Now here's also a remakable comparison made between the observation of Moses
and his God, and the Buddha of Mara the Evil One :
Exodus:20:21: And the people stood afar off, and Moses drew near unto *the
thick darkness where God was*.
Samyutta Nikaya I. Sagathavagga.4 Marasamyutta
493. Then the Blessed One, together with a number of bhikkus, went to the
Black Rock on the Isigli Slope. The Blessed One saw in the distance the
Venerable Godhika lying on the bed with his shoulder turned.
Now on that occasion a cloud of smoke, a swirl of darkness, was moving to
the east, then to the west, to the north, to the south, upwards, downwards,
and to the intermediate quarters. The Blessed One then addressed the bhikkus
thus: "Do you see, bhikkus, that cloud of smoke, that *swirl of darkness*,
moving to the east, then to the west, to the north, to the south, upwards,
downwards, and to the intermediate quarters?"
"Yes, venerable sir."
"That, bhikkus, is *Mara the Evil One* searching for the consciousness of
the clansman Godhika, wondering: 'Where now has the consciousness of the
clansman Godhika been established?' However, bhikkus, the clansman Godhika
has attained final Nibanna."
See here also the difference in Spirit between Jesus and the "God" of the
Old Testament :
OT-Deuteronmy:6:15: (For the LORD thy God is a jealous God among you) lest
the anger of the LORD thy God be kindled against thee, and *destroy thee*
from off the face of the earth.
Luke:9:51: And it came to pass, when the time was come that he should be
received up, he stedfastly set his face to go to Jerusalem,
52: And sent messengers before his face: and they went, and entered into a
village of the Samaritans, to make ready for him.
53: And they did not receive him, because his face was as though he would go
to Jerusalem.
54: And when his disciples James and John saw this, they said, Lord, wilt
thou that we command fire to come down from heaven, and consume them, even
as Elias did?
55: But he turned, and rebuked them, and said, Ye know not *what manner of
spirit* ye are of.
56: For the Son of man is *not come to destroy* men's lives, *but to save
them*. And they went to another village.
Here is some praise which the Buddha made of the disciple whom he called the
son of the Blessed One :
The Buddha: "If he is endowed with five qualities, O monks, the eldest son
of a World-ruling Monarch righteously turns the Wheel of sovereignty that
had been turned by his father. And that Wheel of Sovereignty cannot be
overturned by any hostile human being. What are the five qualities? The
eldest son of a World-ruling Monarch knows what is beneficial, knows the
Law, knows the right measure, knows the right time and knows the society
(with which he has to deal, parisa).
"Similarly, O monks, is Sariputta endowed with five qualities and rightly
turns the supreme Wheel of Dhamma, even as I have turned it. And this Wheel
cannot be overturned by ascetics, or priests, by deities or Brahma, nor by
anyone else in the world. What are those five qualities? Sariputta, O monks,
knows what is beneficial, knows the Teaching, knows the right measure, knows
the right time and knows the assembly (he is to address)."
-- Excerpt from Anguttara Nikaya, V. 132
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/bps/wheels/wheel090.html
The brahmin Sela said to the Buddha,
"You claim full enlightenment,
You tell me, O Gotama,
'I am supreme king of the Dhamma,
I make the Wheel of Dhamma revolve,
The wheel that none can stop.'
"Who is your general, that disciple
Who follows in the Master's own way?
Who is it who helps you to turn
The wheel set in motion by you?"
The Buddha replied :
"The wheel set in motion by me,
That same supreme Wheel of Dhamma,
Sariputta the Tathagata's son
Helps me in turning this wheel."
-- Excerpt from the Majjhima Nikaya 92
The Buddha : "Rightly speaking, were it to be said of anyone : 'He has
attained mastery and perfection in virtue, attained mastery and perfection
in concentration, attained mastery and perfection in wisdom, attained
mastery and perfection in deliverance,' it is of Sariputta indeed that
rightly speaking this should be said.
"Bhikkus, rightly speaking, were it to be said of anyone: 'He is the *son of
the Blessed One*, born of his breast, born of his mouth, born of the Dhamma,
created by the Dhamma, an heir in the Dhamma, not an heir in material
things,' it is of Sariputta indeed that rightly speaking this should be
said. Bhikkus, the matchless Wheel of the Dhamma set rolling by the
Tathagata is kept rolling rightly by Sariputta."
-- Excerpt from the Anupada Sutta, Majjhima Nikaya 111
John:8:54: Jesus answered, If I honour myself, my honour is nothing: it is
my Father that honoureth me; of whom ye say, that he is your God:
Luke:22:70: Then said they all, Art thou then the Son of God? And he said
unto them, Ye say that I am.
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| User: "Woden" |
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| Title: Re: The truth about "God" |
24 Sep 2003 08:41:08 PM |
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"LionOfJudah" <bcozier@bellsouth.net> wrote in
news:B5qcb.29380$8j.16303@bignews4.bellsouth.net:
(snip 320 lines of crap)
We can talk about the "truth" about gods when you can show that they are
something other than imaginary.
Until then, we might as well be discussing the "truth" about Darth Vader or
Sauron or any other fictional villain.
--
Woden
"religion is a socio-political institution for the control of
people's thoughts, lives, and actions; based on
ancient myths and superstitions perpetrated through
generations of subtle yet pervasive brainwashing."
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| User: "Terry Burns" |
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| Title: Re: The truth about "God" |
26 Sep 2003 06:33:44 AM |
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Religion is as real to those who believe in it as the nose on your face,
like many things in life.
If it's true to you, then it's true.
Having faith in your convictions is as useful as having faith in a god. Both
serve a purpose. And both can be false in actuality. It doesn't matter if it
can serve a purpose then make use of it.
As for discussing it, that's a personal choice.
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| User: "Woden" |
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| Title: Re: The truth about "God" |
26 Sep 2003 08:51:39 PM |
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"Terry Burns" <Bombay@Duck.net> wrote in
news:bl186o$m37$1@titan.btinternet.com:
Religion is as real to those who believe in it as the nose on your
face, like many things in life.
There's a difference between what people believe is real and what happens
in reality. To some of us, that difference matters.
If it's true to you, then it's true.
That still doesn't make it real.
Having faith in your convictions is as useful as having faith in a
god. Both serve a purpose. And both can be false in actuality. It
doesn't matter if it can serve a purpose then make use of it.
Sort of like OBL made use of the faith that 19 people had in Allah back on
9/11/01.
As for discussing it, that's a personal choice.
Ok.
--
Woden
"religion is a socio-political institution for the control of
people's thoughts, lives, and actions; based on
ancient myths and superstitions perpetrated through
generations of subtle yet pervasive brainwashing."
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| User: "Ryft Braeloch" |
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| Title: Re: The truth about "God" |
26 Sep 2003 11:06:50 PM |
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"Terry Burns" <Bombay@Duck.net> wrote in
news:bl186o$m37$1@titan.btinternet.com:
Religion is as real to those who believe in it as the nose on your
face, like many things in life.
Religion is real to anyone in possession of an appreciable number of their
senses. Religion is real, period, a fact easily verifiable with a vast array
of observable evidence. Whether the object of the religious practice is
true, or even real, is another matter. But this is semantic nitpicking
intent on doing nothing more than encouraging one to be more careful with
how they phrase their arguments.
If it's true to you, then it's true.
If we are talking about the ontological integrity of religious claims, then
what a load of baloney that is. If it's not true for all people in all
contexts at all times, then it is not true at all. If it's true for you and
no one else, it is not in fact true -- it is delusion. Even if I believe in
all sincerity that tooth fairies exist, it is not in fact true that they
exist no matter how real they are to me. It is a delusion.
---
David G. Nesbitt
Kelowna, BC
"Faith does not prove all claims equally. If faith does
anything at all equally, it fails to prove any claim at all."
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| User: "Woden" |
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| Title: Re: The truth about "God" |
26 Sep 2003 11:39:17 PM |
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"Ryft Braeloch" <ryft@noemail.com> wrote in
news:u18db.17853$O85.9069@pd7tw1no:
"Terry Burns" <Bombay@Duck.net> wrote in
news:bl186o$m37$1@titan.btinternet.com:
Religion is as real to those who believe in it as the nose on your
face, like many things in life.
Religion is real to anyone in possession of an appreciable number of
their senses. Religion is real, period, a fact easily verifiable with
a vast array of observable evidence. Whether the object of the
religious practice is true, or even real, is another matter. But this
is semantic nitpicking intent on doing nothing more than encouraging
one to be more careful with how they phrase their arguments.
Now, to be semantically pedantic (now that's a mouthful...); "religion" is
an abstraction, and not strictly "real", and as an abstraction, it is based
on the observable actions and words of people who claim to have these
beliefs, along with physical artifacts (churches, symbols, relics, etc.)
which people claim to be part of their particular religion. Although, I
will admit that most people don't recognize the difference between such an
abstraction and reality.
If it's true to you, then it's true.
If we are talking about the ontological integrity of religious claims,
then what a load of baloney that is. If it's not true for all people
in all contexts at all times, then it is not true at all. If it's true
for you and no one else, it is not in fact true -- it is delusion.
Even if I believe in all sincerity that tooth fairies exist, it is not
in fact true that they exist no matter how real they are to me. It is
a delusion.
--
Woden
"religion is a socio-political institution for the control of
people's thoughts, lives, and actions; based on
ancient myths and superstitions perpetrated through
generations of subtle yet pervasive brainwashing."
.
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| User: "Terry Burns" |
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| Title: If its true for you ! |
29 Sep 2003 10:55:54 AM |
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Actually religion is the belief in and worship of a god or gods, or any such
system of belief and worship. It is not varifiable that god or god(s)
exists, but it is varifiable that people do beleive in him/them.
Therfore, if people beleive in god, who are we to say that is a delusion.
Likewise, if someone beleives that sticking a hot poker up their nose every
morning has a beneficial treatment on their state of mind, and it does, or
they perceive it does, then it's true for them and its true.
If they beleive it will make them live longer, it may or may not be true,
but its true to them and therefore up until the point that they die, they
will continue to derive a benefit from it.
In essence, a lie can make you feel better, so can the truth, what
difference does it make.
As far as 911 is concerned. We know how we feel about it ( Revolted,
disgusted, greiving ) , but how do they feel about Americans.
They hate Americans for a multitude of reasons, who says their reasons for
hating the US are not valid ?, there is an old poem.
O wad some Pow'r the giftie gie us
To see oursels as others see us
It wad frae monie a blunder free us
An' foolish notion
What airs in dress an' gait wad lea'e us
An' ev'n Devotion
Translating from the Broad Scots this last stanza is:
Oh, that God would give a gift
To see ourselves as others see us
It would save us from many mistakes
and foolish thoughts
We would change the way we look and gesture
and to how and what we apply our time and attention.
Everthing is relative
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| User: "Woden" |
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| Title: Re: If its true for you ! |
29 Sep 2003 12:50:09 PM |
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"Terry Burns" <Bombay@Duck.net> wrote in
news:bl9kma$a7s$1@sparta.btinternet.com:
Actually religion is the belief in and worship of a god or gods, or
any such system of belief and worship. It is not varifiable that god
or god(s) exists, but it is varifiable that people do beleive in
him/them.
It is verifiable that people act and speak as if they believe in gods
leading to the assumption that they do believe.
Therfore, if people beleive in god, who are we to say that is a
delusion. Likewise, if someone beleives that sticking a hot poker up
their nose every morning has a beneficial treatment on their state of
mind, and it does, or they perceive it does, then it's true for them
and its true.
True for them and true about reality can be quite different. And until
someone provides some real world, objective, verifiable evidence for these
gods, there is no reason to consider their beliefs as anything other than
delusions.
If they beleive it will make them live longer, it may or may not be
true, but its true to them and therefore up until the point that they
die, they will continue to derive a benefit from it.
And as long as they keep their beliefs, however idiotic, to themselves, I
have no problem. But when they start preaching where they're not wanted,
when they start trying to force others to live according to these beliefs,
when they start abusing or killing those who don't believe, when they start
trying to make their beliefs part of the laws of this country, when they
come into this newsgroup with their fairy tales; when they start these
things, I do have a problem.
In essence, a lie can make you feel better, so can the truth, what
difference does it make.
To you or them, I don't know. To me it makes a difference and I don't care
to lie to myself, just to feel better.
As far as 911 is concerned. We know how we feel about it ( Revolted,
disgusted, greiving ) , but how do they feel about Americans.
Ah, yes, religious beliefs in action.
They hate Americans for a multitude of reasons, who says their
reasons for hating the US are not valid ?, there is an old poem.
O wad some Pow'r the giftie gie us
To see oursels as others see us
It wad frae monie a blunder free us
An' foolish notion
What airs in dress an' gait wad lea'e us
An' ev'n Devotion
Translating from the Broad Scots this last stanza is:
Oh, that God would give a gift
To see ourselves as others see us
It would save us from many mistakes
and foolish thoughts
We would change the way we look and gesture
and to how and what we apply our time and attention.
Everthing is relative
And delusion is still delusion.
--
Woden
"religion is a socio-political institution for the control of
people's thoughts, lives, and actions; based on
ancient myths and superstitions perpetrated through
generations of subtle yet pervasive brainwashing."
.
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| User: "Terry Burns" |
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| Title: Re: If its true for you ! |
29 Sep 2003 01:59:09 PM |
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And delusion is still delusion.
Agreed, but who is deluded ?
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| User: "Woden" |
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| Title: Re: If its true for you ! |
29 Sep 2003 04:35:25 PM |
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"Terry Burns" <Bombay@Duck.net> wrote in
news:bl9vdt$4ir$1@hercules.btinternet.com:
And delusion is still delusion.
Agreed, but who is deluded ?
Who isn't?
--
Woden
"religion is a socio-political institution for the control of
people's thoughts, lives, and actions; based on
ancient myths and superstitions perpetrated through
generations of subtle yet pervasive brainwashing."
.
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| User: "Del" |
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| Title: Re: If its true for you ! |
30 Sep 2003 11:18:52 PM |
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"Terry Burns" <Bombay@Duck.net> wrote in message news:<bl9kma$a7s$1@sparta.btinternet.com>...
-=snip=-
Everthing is relative
Everything except this statement which is absolute?
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| User: "One Handed Man" |
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| Title: Re: If its true for you ! |
01 Oct 2003 03:59:08 AM |
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Not at all, it is now relevent to this statement
Del wrote:
"Terry Burns" <Bombay@Duck.net> wrote in message
news:<bl9kma$a7s$1@sparta.btinternet.com>...
-=snip=-
Everthing is relative
Everything except this statement which is absolute?
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| User: "Del" |
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| Title: Re: If its true for you ! |
01 Oct 2003 07:27:08 PM |
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"One Handed Man" <Bombay@Duck.net> wrote in message news:<ble50r$b3r$1@titan.btinternet.com>...
Yes, your statement "everything is relative" admits to no exceptions
and thus is an absolute (not a relative) statement.
Not at all, it is now relevent to this statement
Del wrote:
"Terry Burns" <Bombay@Duck.net> wrote in message
news:<bl9kma$a7s$1@sparta.btinternet.com>...
-=snip=-
Everthing is relative
Everything except this statement which is absolute?
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| User: "John Hattan" |
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| Title: Re: If its true for you ! |
29 Sep 2003 10:58:03 AM |
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"Terry Burns" <Bombay@Duck.net> wrote:
Therfore, if people beleive in god, who are we to say that is a delusion.
Would you say the same of the man who insists that he is Napoleon?
Likewise, if someone beleives that sticking a hot poker up their nose every
morning has a beneficial treatment on their state of mind, and it does, or
they perceive it does, then it's true for them and its true.
If they beleive it will make them live longer, it may or may not be true,
but its true to them and therefore up until the point that they die, they
will continue to derive a benefit from it.
In essence, a lie can make you feel better, so can the truth, what
difference does it make.
It makes a difference when people want to impose their delusion on
others and pay for those delusions with tax dollars.
As far as 911 is concerned. We know how we feel about it ( Revolted,
disgusted, greiving ) , but how do they feel about Americans.
They hate Americans for a multitude of reasons, who says their reasons for
hating the US are not valid ?, there is an old poem.
O wad some Pow'r the giftie gie us
To see oursels as others see us
It wad frae monie a blunder free us
An' foolish notion
What airs in dress an' gait wad lea'e us
An' ev'n Devotion
Translating from the Broad Scots this last stanza is:
Oh, that God would give a gift
To see ourselves as others see us
It would save us from many mistakes
and foolish thoughts
We would change the way we look and gesture
and to how and what we apply our time and attention.
Everthing is relative
Wrong. You can insist all day that my baseball bat is made of magical
invisible material that will pass right through you. You can believe as
strongly as you want that it is true that my baseball bat will not be
able to harm you, but I can disprove your belief with a single swing.
---
John Hattan Grand High UberPope - First Church of Shatnerology
john@thecodezone.com http://www.shatnerology.com
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| User: "Terry Burns" |
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| Title: Re: If its true for you ! |
29 Sep 2003 01:14:43 PM |
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Would you say the same of the man who insists that he is Napoleon?
My point is that to the person it is true. If you disprove their beleive,
they may continue to beleive and find another way to argue the case of their
beleif system. He may be happy as Napolean, so what does it matter.
Wrong. You can insist all day that my baseball bat is made of magical
invisible material that will pass right through you. You can believe as
strongly as you want that it is true that my baseball bat will not be
able to harm you, but I can disprove your belief with a single swing.
In your case yes of course the proof is readily available. However we are
talking about faith in something which cannot be disproved. , when someone
beleives in god or beleives or perceives something to be doing them good
which cannot be proved; You cannot disway them, and in many cases should
not.
In some cases, you can offer proof to someone with unshakable faith that
they are wrong, and they will still disbeleive you and maintain their faith.
Regardless of the truth, its true for them.
Your perception of reality doesent need to be the only valid one.
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| User: "John Hattan" |
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| Title: Re: If its true for you ! |
29 Sep 2003 08:48:03 PM |
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"Terry Burns" <Bombay@Duck.net> wrote:
Would you say the same of the man who insists that he is Napoleon?
My point is that to the person it is true. If you disprove their beleive,
they may continue to beleive and find another way to argue the case of their
beleif system. He may be happy as Napolean, so what does it matter.
What if the person suddenly insists that we pay tax dollars to help him
rehabilitate his imperial home? Should we consider to humor him there
too?
Wrong. You can insist all day that my baseball bat is made of magical
invisible material that will pass right through you. You can believe as
strongly as you want that it is true that my baseball bat will not be
able to harm you, but I can disprove your belief with a single swing.
In your case yes of course the proof is readily available. However we are
talking about faith in something which cannot be disproved.
Depends on the god. The Judeo-Christian god is made up of conflicting
omni-attributes and can no more exist as defined than can a square
circle.
, when someone
beleives in god or beleives or perceives something to be doing them good
which cannot be proved; You cannot disway them, and in many cases should
not.
Says who? I was once a Christian who believed in something that could
not be proved. Then I was dissuaded and stopped believing.
In some cases, you can offer proof to someone with unshakable faith that
they are wrong, and they will still disbeleive you and maintain their faith.
Regardless of the truth, its true for them.
Your perception of reality doesent need to be the only valid one.
So you consider it to be healthy to lie to oneself?
---
John Hattan Grand High UberPope - First Church of Shatnerology
john@thecodezone.com http://www.shatnerology.com
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| User: "Terry Burns" |
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| Title: Re: If its true for you ! |
30 Sep 2003 02:45:04 AM |
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What if the person suddenly insists that we pay tax dollars to help him
rehabilitate his imperial home? Should we consider to humor him there
too?
Yes, just dont pay the tax dollars.
which cannot be proved; You cannot disway them, and in many cases should
not.
Says who? I was once a Christian who believed in something that could
not be proved. Then I was dissuaded and stopped believing.
Take a cancer suffer who beleives that he will get salvation at the end of
his suffering, this brings him comfort. Regardless of the final truth of the
beleif, this helps him. It therefore does not matter.
In some cases, you can offer proof to someone with unshakable faith that
they are wrong, and they will still disbeleive you and maintain their
faith.
Regardless of the truth, its true for them.
Your perception of reality doesent need to be the only valid one.
So you consider it to be healthy to lie to oneself?
Just because you perceive something to be real, that in itself make it so.
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| User: "John Hattan" |
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| Title: Re: If its true for you ! |
30 Sep 2003 08:25:44 AM |
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"Terry Burns" <Bombay@Duck.net> wrote:
What if the person suddenly insists that we pay tax dollars to help him
rehabilitate his imperial home? Should we consider to humor him there
too?
Yes, just dont pay the tax dollars.
So I should go to jail for tax evasion because I don't want to support
someone's delusion?
which cannot be proved; You cannot disway them, and in many cases should
not.
Says who? I was once a Christian who believed in something that could
not be proved. Then I was dissuaded and stopped believing.
Take a cancer suffer who beleives that he will get salvation at the end of
his suffering, this brings him comfort. Regardless of the final truth of the
beleif, this helps him. It therefore does not matter.
Address my point. You said "you cannot disway[sic] them", yet that's
exactly what happened to me. Address my points rather than ignoring them
and making up examples that better support your claims.
In some cases, you can offer proof to someone with unshakable faith that
they are wrong, and they will still disbeleive you and maintain their
faith.
Regardless of the truth, its true for them.
Your perception of reality doesent need to be the only valid one.
So you consider it to be healthy to lie to oneself?
Just because you perceive something to be real, that in itself make it so.
Wrong. If a person is not holding a baseball bat, but he "perceives"
that he is holding one and pretends to swing it at me, I won't be
harmed.
---
John Hattan Grand High UberPope - First Church of Shatnerology
john@thecodezone.com http://www.shatnerology.com
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| User: "One Handed Man" |
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| Title: Re: If its true for you ! |
30 Sep 2003 11:43:19 AM |
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Yes, just dont pay the tax dollars.
So I should go to jail for tax evasion because I don't want to support
someone's delusion?
You didnt say that the person who decided this also had the power, be more
specific.!
Says who? I was once a Christian who believed in something that could
not be proved. Then I was dissuaded and stopped believing.
Take a cancer suffer who beleives that he will get salvation at the end
of
his suffering, this brings him comfort. Regardless of the final truth of
the
beleif, this helps him. It therefore does not matter.
Address my point. You said "you cannot disway[sic] them", yet that's
exactly what happened to me. Address my points rather than ignoring them
and making up examples that better support your claims.
What do you want me to say? Yes someone persuaded you no to be a christian,
and therefore your delusion was shattered and you are now normal? OK, Sure,
you sound really normal.! Happy now ?
My point, ( Now listen carefully so I dont have to repeat myself ),is that
wether something is 'actually' true or not, doesent matter in some cases.
Because when someone has faith and 'beleives', thats the only truth that
matters to them, and in this case may well be beneficial. These are the
cases when it is wrong to dissaude them. In your case, you dont seem to have
gained politeness as a result, were you any more polite as a christian ?
Just because you perceive something to be real, that in itself doesent
make it so.
Wrong. If a person is not holding a baseball bat, but he "perceives"
that he is holding one and pretends to swing it at me, I won't be
harmed.
Wrong again, you made an assumtion that my statement applies in all cases. I
said
"Just because you perceive something to be real, that in itself doesent make
it so."
This does not exclude the possibility that my reality is not also yours.
Now pay attention next this time, perhaps go back and read my words again
before replying. And if you can, be polite!
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| User: "John Hattan" |
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| Title: Re: If its true for you ! |
30 Sep 2003 09:19:03 PM |
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"One Handed Man" <Bombay@Duck.net> wrote:
Yes, just dont pay the tax dollars.
So I should go to jail for tax evasion because I don't want to support
someone's delusion?
You didnt say that the person who decided this also had the power, be more
specific.!
Actually, you did. You were originally referring to the Christian
religion, which can and does very strongly lobby the government for tax
money.
Says who? I was once a Christian who believed in something that could
not be proved. Then I was dissuaded and stopped believing.
Take a cancer suffer who beleives that he will get salvation at the end
of
his suffering, this brings him comfort. Regardless of the final truth of
the
beleif, this helps him. It therefore does not matter.
Address my point. You said "you cannot disway[sic] them", yet that's
exactly what happened to me. Address my points rather than ignoring them
and making up examples that better support your claims.
What do you want me to say? Yes someone persuaded you no to be a christian,
and therefore your delusion was shattered and you are now normal? OK, Sure,
you sound really normal.! Happy now ?
So much for your point that it's a bad idea to disway[sic] people from
their religion.
My point, ( Now listen carefully so I dont have to repeat myself ),is that
wether something is 'actually' true or not, doesent matter in some cases.
And who's to decide what those cases are? You?
Because when someone has faith and 'beleives', thats the only truth that
matters to them, and in this case may well be beneficial. These are the
cases when it is wrong to dissaude them. In your case, you dont seem to have
gained politeness as a result, were you any more polite as a christian ?
Not a bit.
Just because you perceive something to be real, that in itself doesent
make it so.
Wrong. If a person is not holding a baseball bat, but he "perceives"
that he is holding one and pretends to swing it at me, I won't be
harmed.
Wrong again, you made an assumtion that my statement applies in all cases. I
said
"Just because you perceive something to be real, that in itself doesent make
it so."
This does not exclude the possibility that my reality is not also yours.
And you, once again, are wrong. There is only one reality. There is no
"my" reality and "your" reality. There is only reality. The baseball bat
example is an absurdly simple way of showing your claim to be nonsense.
You can pretend that this "my reality" of which you speak is actually
true for cases where things are so nebulous and difficult to prove that
they're defend-able with schoolyard sophistry, but you'd still be wrong
then too.
---
John Hattan Grand High UberPope - First Church of Shatnerology
john@thecodezone.com http://www.shatnerology.com
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| User: "One Handed Man" |
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| Title: Re: If its true for you ! |
01 Oct 2003 03:55:39 AM |
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Keep your Hatton ;-D
Because when someone has faith and 'beleives', thats the only truth
that matters to them, and in this case may well be beneficial. These
are the cases when it is wrong to dissaude them. In your case, you
dont seem to have gained politeness as a result, were you any more
polite as a christian ?
Not a bit.
Why am I not suprised :-|
BTW
Your wrote this as a reply to Thomas P. You disagree with me, but agree
when he agrees with me, what gives ?
No, just because something cannot be proven, doesent make it false.
There
are killers on the streets who the police cannot prove guilty, but they
did.
But, since truth is relative, it doesn't matter at all does it?
Of course. If the killers don't think they killed anybody, then they
didn't, right?
Of course, as long as "their truth" makes them happy, who are we to <<<
YOU
interfere?
Absolutely. Since it's "their reality" and "their truth", who are we to
say that what they're doing is wrong?
Absolutely. Since it's "their reality" and "their truth", who are we to
say that what they're doing is wrong?
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| User: "John Hattan" |
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| Title: Re: If its true for you ! |
01 Oct 2003 09:07:49 AM |
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"One Handed Man" <Bombay@Duck.net> wrote:
Keep your Hatton ;-D
Because when someone has faith and 'beleives', thats the only truth
that matters to them, and in this case may well be beneficial. These
are the cases when it is wrong to dissaude them. In your case, you
dont seem to have gained politeness as a result, were you any more
polite as a christian ?
Not a bit.
Why am I not suprised :-|
Actually in "my reality" I'm extremely polite to everyone and cannot be
"diswayed"[sic] from that belief, so you should respect that and not
call me impolite.
You seem to have a problem practicing what you preach.
BTW
Your wrote this as a reply to Thomas P. You disagree with me, but agree
when he agrees with me, what gives ?
Thomas is being sarcastic in his replies, and I'm echoing his sarcasm.
Get a clue.
---
John Hattan Grand High UberPope - First Church of Shatnerology
john@thecodezone.com http://www.shatnerology.com
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| User: "One Handed Man" |
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| Title: Personally, I just think you're off your head !! |
01 Oct 2003 10:46:49 AM |
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Personally, I just think you're off your head !!
And thats my reality.
< Bows down in awe of the Uber Pope>
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| User: "Mani Deli" |
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| Title: Re: If its true for you ! |
29 Sep 2003 04:27:28 PM |
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On Mon, 29 Sep 2003 18:14:43 +0000 (UTC), "Terry Burns"
<Bombay@Duck.net> wrote:
However we are
talking about faith in something which cannot be disproved. ,
Like Santa Claus?
when someone
beleives in god or beleives or perceives something to be doing them good
which cannot be proved; You cannot disway them, and in many cases should
not.
The point is whether its true or not.
In some cases, you can offer proof to someone with unshakable faith that
they are wrong, and they will still disbeleive you and maintain their faith.
Regardless of the truth, its true for them.
That's the essence of religion.
Your perception of reality doesent need to be the only valid one.
Depends on which perception!
Tired of Modern Art? See-
http://www3.sympatico.ca/manideli/
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| User: "Mark Richardson" |
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| Title: Re: If its true for you ! |
29 Sep 2003 10:19:21 PM |
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On Mon, 29 Sep 2003 15:55:54 +0000 (UTC), "Terry Burns"
<Bombay@Duck.net> wrote:
Actually religion is the belief in and worship of a god or gods, or any such
system of belief and worship. It is not varifiable that god or god(s)
exists, but it is varifiable that people do beleive in him/them.
Agreeded.
Therfore, if people beleive in god, who are we to say that is a delusion.
We all make such judgements, all the time.
Who are you to forbid me making such a judgement?
Everthing is relative
A very great deal is relative.
Saying "Everything" is a bit extreme and absolutist for me.
Mark.
--
Mark Richardson mDOTrichardsonATutasDOTeduDOTau
Member of S.M.A.S.H.
(Sarcastic Middle aged Atheists with a Sense of Humour)
-----------------------------------------------------
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| User: "Terry Burns" |
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| Title: Re: If its true for you ! |
30 Sep 2003 02:53:29 AM |
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Therfore, if people beleive in god, who are we to say that is a delusion.
We all make such judgements, all the time.
Who are you to forbid me making such a judgement?
Where in my statement do I forbid you ?, Read it again, it is a question
without the question mark at the end.
Everthing is relative
A very great deal is relative.
Saying "Everything" is a bit extreme and absolutist for me.
Actually, in the deterministic view ( which I fully support ) Everything is
relative.
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| User: "Kermit" |
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| Title: Re: If its true for you ! |
30 Sep 2003 03:20:52 PM |
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"Terry Burns" <Bombay@Duck.net> wrote in message news:<blbcpo$ni0$1@titan.btinternet.com>...
Therfore, if people beleive in god, who are we to say that is a delusion.
We all make such judgements, all the time.
Who are you to forbid me making such a judgement?
Where in my statement do I forbid you ?, Read it again, it is a question
without the question mark at the end.
Everthing is relative
A very great deal is relative.
Saying "Everything" is a bit extreme and absolutist for me.
Actually, in the deterministic view ( which I fully support ) Everything is
relative.
As a determinist, I vigorously disagree.
Just as there is objective truth regarding the melting point of lead,
the distance from here to Mars, etc., so it there objective truth
regarding another's pain; deliberate lying; etc. These actions and
conditions can easily be the basis (and, I woudl insist, are naturally
so) of a moral code.
I agree that many things are culturally or personally "relative" -
whether or not to belch at a meal, looking into a superior's eyes when
talking, and so on. But people can be wrong on many issues, including
morality. And self-delusion is bad. Religious delusions has killed
kids by depriving them of proper medical care. There is a man in our
area (Pacific Norhtwest0 who is in jail for an "honor killing" - he
murdered his daughter for her affection for a disapproved young man.
this visciousness was hidden under the mask of religious
justification.
People are making many important social decisions, or trying to, based
on religious delusions.
--- Kermit
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| User: "Mark K. Bilbo" |
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| Title: Re: If its true for you ! |
30 Sep 2003 08:03:11 PM |
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On Tue, 30 Sep 2003 13:20:52 -0700, Kermit wrote:
As a determinist, I vigorously disagree.
I knew you'd say that...
--
Mark K. Bilbo
From alt.atheism only
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| User: "Thomas P." |
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| Title: Re: If its true for you ! |
01 Oct 2003 02:37:19 AM |
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On Tue, 30 Sep 2003 20:03:11 -0500, "Mark K. Bilbo"
<iskanipa-y@hoo.com> wrote:
On Tue, 30 Sep 2003 13:20:52 -0700, Kermit wrote:
As a determinist, I vigorously disagree.
I knew you'd say that...
I knew that.
Thomas P.
"That there are manes, a subterranean kingdom, a ferryman with a long pole, and black frogs in the whirlpools
of the Styx; that so many thousand men could cross the waves in a single boat, today even children refuse to believe."
Juvenal
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| User: "Mark K. Bilbo" |
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| Title: Re: If its true for you ! |
01 Oct 2003 11:25:08 AM |
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On Wed, 01 Oct 2003 09:37:19 +0200, Thomas P. wrote:
On Tue, 30 Sep 2003 20:03:11 -0500, "Mark K. Bilbo"
<iskanipa-y@hoo.com> wrote:
On Tue, 30 Sep 2003 13:20:52 -0700, Kermit wrote:
As a determinist, I vigorously disagree.
I knew you'd say that...
I knew that.
It was inevitable you'd post that...
--
Mark K. Bilbo
From alt.atheism only
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| User: "Thomas P." |
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| Title: Re: If its true for you ! |
01 Oct 2003 05:22:36 PM |
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On Wed, 01 Oct 2003 11:25:08 -0500, "Mark K. Bilbo"
<iskanipa-y@hoo.com> wrote:
On Wed, 01 Oct 2003 09:37:19 +0200, Thomas P. wrote:
On Tue, 30 Sep 2003 20:03:11 -0500, "Mark K. Bilbo"
<iskanipa-y@hoo.com> wrote:
On Tue, 30 Sep 2003 13:20:52 -0700, Kermit wrote:
As a determinist, I vigorously disagree.
I knew you'd say that...
I knew that.
It was inevitable you'd post that...
This "brilliant" exchange of repartee reminds me of my favorite Isaac
Bashevis Singer line. I heard him say in a television interview that
there was no free will, but that we have to live as if there were;
because we have no choice. Of course he had to say that.
Thomas P.
"That there are manes, a subterranean kingdom, a ferryman with a long pole, and black frogs in the whirlpools
of the Styx; that so many thousand men could cross the waves in a single boat, today even children refuse to believe."
Juvenal
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