Religions > Atheism > This is for RF and anyone else who thinks the UK's education system is so brilliant
| Topic: |
Religions > Atheism |
| User: |
"Uncle Davey" |
| Date: |
17 Feb 2004 08:22:48 AM |
| Object: |
This is for RF and anyone else who thinks the UK's education system is so brilliant |
Look what a mess they've made of it.
They're trying to stop kids from being allowed to take a lot of gcses now.
When I was a kid it was O levels, and I got thirteen, and one thing you can
say is it enables you to get very broad in your basic education before
starting to specialise, and now they are against that. I guess British kids
are gonna get dumber and dumber until they won't have the ability required
to clean a toilet.
Uncle Davey
http://education.guardian.co.uk/gcse/story/0,5500,1149812,00.html?79%3A+Uk+latest
Exams fail generation of pupils
.. Schools chief says basics being ignored
.. Plans for new diploma unveiled today
Rebecca Smithers, education correspondent
Tuesday February 17, 2004
The Guardian
The secondary school examination and assessment system is so flawed that
even high-achievers with strings of top-grade GCSEs are leaving school with
poor basic skills in numeracy and literacy, the man leading a government
inquiry into 14-19 education says today.
In a devastating critique of the exams the former chief inspector of schools
Mike Tomlinson singles out GCSEs in particular for failing to challenge an
entire generation because of the huge burden of assessment.
In an interview with Guardian Education he says the overwhelming evidence
from employers and universities is that English and maths GCSEs are "not
proxies" for the basic skills required for higher education and in the
workplace.
This morning he will unveil sweeping changes to secondary school exams under
which a new"diploma" framework may eventually replace GCSEs, A-levels and
other qualifications for the 14-19 age group.
Crucially, all will be required to study a "core" of English, maths and
information and communication technology, likely to be set at a higher
standard than today's GCSE. Mr Tomlinson hopes it will go a considerable way
towards meeting the widespread concern about poor skills.
Mr Tomlinson, appointed by the government to head an inquiry into the 14-19
phase of education after the A-level fiasco of 2002, says it is the
government's biggest educational challenge.
"If accepted, it will have a huge impact on our education system. That
weighs heavy because it must be right. It has to be implemented in a
planned, systematic way," he says.
The working group will set out proposals for a diploma framework that will
provide a "ladder of progression" into which exam units or components, and
the recognition of other skills and activities, will be slotted.
Achievement in each will be recorded on an official "transcript" which will
be available to universities and employers.
Further work has still to be done on such key issues as how individual
subjects should be graded within the overall diploma, in close consultation
with universities.
Mr Tomlinson hopes the new system will stop schools putting students in to
take large numbers of GCSE.
"What we can't stop ... is the school that wants to do 10, 12, 13 GCSEs -
you would not need those to get the intermediate diploma even at the highest
level."
Students needed to be set greater challenges in the exam system. "We talk
about challenge at A-level but for many young people there isn't much of a
challenge presented by GCSE."
There was a huge problem of poor skills in young people, not only at the
lower end of the ability range but also in pupils achieving high grades.
The assumption had always been that poor literacy and numeracy were
associated with poor achievement.
"What we have found is that this is not the case. It isn't that young people
at university are not able to do this - it's not been an integral part of
their programme and it's not been encouraged and supported by the way in
which they are assessed.
"It's not their fault, nor is it the fault of their teachers."
Even pupils with GCSE and A-level maths were having to take remedial classes
once they arrived at university.
Mr Tomlinson says he is "quite convinced" that GCSEs in maths and English
language should not be seen as substitutes for basic numeracy and literacy.
"As the syllabus has developed and the assessment methods have developed,
it's very difficult to say with assurance that someone getting a particular
grade in those subjects has those basic skills at the level required."
An important element in Mr Tomlinson's report is that students will be
offered the choice of taking a "specialised" diploma focusing on arts or
sciences or a more general "open"one.
Those choosing the science diploma would be required to take an appropriate
maths course as well as basic maths.
The idea is that the 14-19 phase will be organised around diplomas at the
first four levels of a new national qualifications framework: entry,
foundation, intermediate and advanced. All diplomas would have the basic
structure of core, main learning and common skills developed across the
curriculum.
At the higher level, pupils would have to undertake an extended project or
personal challenge appropriate to the level of the diploma.
This would help them acquire the research, planning, analytical and
presentational skills sought by employers and higher education, and would
effectively replace discredited coursework, in which there is currently much
scope for plagiarism.
.
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| User: "Mike Dworetsky" |
|
| Title: Re: This is for RF and anyone else who thinks the UK's education system is so brilliant |
17 Feb 2004 11:27:34 AM |
|
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"Uncle Davey" <noway@jose.com> wrote in message
news:c0t899$9je$0@pita.alt.net...
Look what a mess they've made of it.
They're trying to stop kids from being allowed to take a lot of gcses now.
When I was a kid it was O levels, and I got thirteen, and one thing you
can
say is it enables you to get very broad in your basic education before
starting to specialise, and now they are against that. I guess British
kids
are gonna get dumber and dumber until they won't have the ability required
to clean a toilet.
Uncle Davey
http://education.guardian.co.uk/gcse/story/0,5500,1149812,00.html?79%3A+Uk+latest
Exams fail generation of pupils
. Schools chief says basics being ignored
. Plans for new diploma unveiled today
Rebecca Smithers, education correspondent
Tuesday February 17, 2004
The Guardian
The secondary school examination and assessment system is so flawed that
even high-achievers with strings of top-grade GCSEs are leaving school
with
poor basic skills in numeracy and literacy, the man leading a government
inquiry into 14-19 education says today.
In a devastating critique of the exams the former chief inspector of
schools
Mike Tomlinson singles out GCSEs in particular for failing to challenge an
entire generation because of the huge burden of assessment.
One of the biggest problems is that the teachers themselves went through the
system at a time when basic skills like literacy were de-emphasised, and
"whatever you wrote or said" was OK because it's your "ethnic" or "class"
English and we mustn't criticise your spelling, grammar or pronunciation!
Self-expression (tm) was encouraged. Now we are into the second generation
and if your teacher is under 40 and went to a UK state school, you are in
trouble.
A few years years ago a friend's very bright child in London was marked down
in an English class essay for spelling "refrigerator" without a "d" (as in
"refridgerator"). The kid was 100% right, of course, and stood up for
himself. It meant he was marked down as a troublemaker. His mother had to
come to school and speak to the headmaster who regarded it as a pupil
disciplinary matter rather than a problem having an illiterate teach
English. No, I'm not making this up.
In an interview with Guardian Education he says the overwhelming evidence
from employers and universities is that English and maths GCSEs are "not
proxies" for the basic skills required for higher education and in the
workplace.
This morning he will unveil sweeping changes to secondary school exams
under
which a new"diploma" framework may eventually replace GCSEs, A-levels and
other qualifications for the 14-19 age group.
Crucially, all will be required to study a "core" of English, maths and
information and communication technology, likely to be set at a higher
standard than today's GCSE. Mr Tomlinson hopes it will go a considerable
way
towards meeting the widespread concern about poor skills.
Mr Tomlinson, appointed by the government to head an inquiry into the
14-19
phase of education after the A-level fiasco of 2002, says it is the
government's biggest educational challenge.
"If accepted, it will have a huge impact on our education system. That
weighs heavy because it must be right. It has to be implemented in a
planned, systematic way," he says.
The working group will set out proposals for a diploma framework that will
provide a "ladder of progression" into which exam units or components, and
the recognition of other skills and activities, will be slotted.
Achievement in each will be recorded on an official "transcript" which
will
be available to universities and employers.
Further work has still to be done on such key issues as how individual
subjects should be graded within the overall diploma, in close
consultation
with universities.
Mr Tomlinson hopes the new system will stop schools putting students in to
take large numbers of GCSE.
"What we can't stop ... is the school that wants to do 10, 12, 13 GCSEs -
you would not need those to get the intermediate diploma even at the
highest
level."
Students needed to be set greater challenges in the exam system. "We talk
about challenge at A-level but for many young people there isn't much of a
challenge presented by GCSE."
There was a huge problem of poor skills in young people, not only at the
lower end of the ability range but also in pupils achieving high grades.
The assumption had always been that poor literacy and numeracy were
associated with poor achievement.
"What we have found is that this is not the case. It isn't that young
people
at university are not able to do this - it's not been an integral part of
their programme and it's not been encouraged and supported by the way in
which they are assessed.
"It's not their fault, nor is it the fault of their teachers."
Even pupils with GCSE and A-level maths were having to take remedial
classes
once they arrived at university.
Mr Tomlinson says he is "quite convinced" that GCSEs in maths and English
language should not be seen as substitutes for basic numeracy and
literacy.
"As the syllabus has developed and the assessment methods have developed,
it's very difficult to say with assurance that someone getting a
particular
grade in those subjects has those basic skills at the level required."
An important element in Mr Tomlinson's report is that students will be
offered the choice of taking a "specialised" diploma focusing on arts or
sciences or a more general "open"one.
Those choosing the science diploma would be required to take an
appropriate
maths course as well as basic maths.
The idea is that the 14-19 phase will be organised around diplomas at the
first four levels of a new national qualifications framework: entry,
foundation, intermediate and advanced. All diplomas would have the basic
structure of core, main learning and common skills developed across the
curriculum.
At the higher level, pupils would have to undertake an extended project or
personal challenge appropriate to the level of the diploma.
This would help them acquire the research, planning, analytical and
presentational skills sought by employers and higher education, and would
effectively replace discredited coursework, in which there is currently
much
scope for plagiarism.
--
Mike Dworetsky
(Remove "pants" spamblock to send e-mail)
.
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| User: "Uncle Davey" |
|
| Title: Re: This is for RF and anyone else who thinks the UK's education system is so brilliant |
18 Feb 2004 01:32:16 AM |
|
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Użytkownik "Mike Dworetsky" <platinum198@pants.btinternet.com> napisał w
wiadomości news:c0tj1i$f6j$1@titan.btinternet.com...
"Uncle Davey" <noway@jose.com> wrote in message
news:c0t899$9je$0@pita.alt.net...
Look what a mess they've made of it.
They're trying to stop kids from being allowed to take a lot of gcses
now.
When I was a kid it was O levels, and I got thirteen, and one thing you
can
say is it enables you to get very broad in your basic education before
starting to specialise, and now they are against that. I guess British
kids
are gonna get dumber and dumber until they won't have the ability
required
to clean a toilet.
Uncle Davey
http://education.guardian.co.uk/gcse/story/0,5500,1149812,00.html?79%3A+Uk+latest
Exams fail generation of pupils
. Schools chief says basics being ignored
. Plans for new diploma unveiled today
Rebecca Smithers, education correspondent
Tuesday February 17, 2004
The Guardian
The secondary school examination and assessment system is so flawed that
even high-achievers with strings of top-grade GCSEs are leaving school
with
poor basic skills in numeracy and literacy, the man leading a government
inquiry into 14-19 education says today.
In a devastating critique of the exams the former chief inspector of
schools
Mike Tomlinson singles out GCSEs in particular for failing to challenge
an
entire generation because of the huge burden of assessment.
One of the biggest problems is that the teachers themselves went through
the
system at a time when basic skills like literacy were de-emphasised, and
"whatever you wrote or said" was OK because it's your "ethnic" or "class"
English and we mustn't criticise your spelling, grammar or pronunciation!
Self-expression (tm) was encouraged. Now we are into the second
generation
and if your teacher is under 40 and went to a UK state school, you are in
trouble.
A few years years ago a friend's very bright child in London was marked
down
in an English class essay for spelling "refrigerator" without a "d" (as in
"refridgerator"). The kid was 100% right, of course, and stood up for
himself. It meant he was marked down as a troublemaker. His mother had
to
come to school and speak to the headmaster who regarded it as a pupil
disciplinary matter rather than a problem having an illiterate teach
English. No, I'm not making this up.
I believe you, and it saddens me.
The first time a teacher taught me about muscles, she wrote it on the board
'mussels' as in cockles and mussels, alive, alive -oh. That was in primary
school, and yet I knew well enough that it wasn't spelt that way. I tried
to put her right, but just got ridiculed for it. I learned that day not to
trust teachers. It was a long time before I learned which ones to trust and
which ones not to.
Uncle Davey
.
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| User: "Alun Harford" |
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| Title: Re: This is for RF and anyone else who thinks the UK's education system is so brilliant |
17 Feb 2004 10:54:28 AM |
|
|
"Uncle Davey" <noway@jose.com> wrote in message
news:c0t899$9je$0@pita.alt.net...
Look what a mess they've made of it.
They're trying to stop kids from being allowed to take a lot of gcses now.
No. An individual has recommended it in a report.
BIG difference.
When I was a kid it was O levels, and I got thirteen, and one thing you
can
say is it enables you to get very broad in your basic education before
starting to specialise, and now they are against that.
No it didn't. It gave you very broad schooling.
I guess British kids
are gonna get dumber and dumber until they won't have the ability required
to clean a toilet.
Have you seen toilets in student houses?
We're already there. :-)
Exams fail generation of pupils
Tuesday February 17, 2004
The Guardian
The secondary school examination and assessment system is so flawed that
even high-achievers with strings of top-grade GCSEs are leaving school
with
poor basic skills in numeracy and literacy,
That's because numeracy and literacy are not taught.
This morning he will unveil sweeping changes to secondary school exams
under
which a new"diploma" framework may eventually replace GCSEs, A-levels and
other qualifications for the 14-19 age group.
Oh great - yet another crap scheme that'll change a year later. Fortunately,
IT'S JUST A REPORT BY ONE MAN.
Crucially, all will be required to study a "core" of English,
Already required in almost all cases.
maths
Well other than the fact that nobody ever studies much of that before
university level, 'numerical trivia' is already done at GCSE.
And I don't see them introducing real Maths before the second year of a
F.Maths A-Level.
and
information and communication technology,
Very few teachers have the skills required to teach ICT.
And why do I get the feeling that this will basically mean 'Microsoft'?
The man's a moron.
likely to be set at a higher
standard than today's GCSE.
Depends on what 'standard' is used - this will probably mean that they'll
decide on things like "students may not use calculators" (Make the exam
completely pointless as any real counting is done on a computer - but at
least it means it's easy to come up with rubbish questions)
The man's a moron.
Mr Tomlinson hopes it will go a considerable way
towards meeting the widespread concern about poor skills.
Is this education or politics? I suspect the latter.
"If accepted, it will have a huge impact on our education system. That
weighs heavy because it must be right. It has to be implemented in a
planned, systematic way," he says.
It has to be rejected by parliament. Fortunately, I suspect it will be.
Students needed to be set greater challenges in the exam system. "We talk
about challenge at A-level but for many young people there isn't much of a
challenge presented by GCSE."
Not much challange at A-level either.
The assumption had always been that poor literacy and numeracy were
associated with poor achievement.
Who on earth made that assumption? How many doctors have great handwriting?
How many mathematicians are good at numeracy?
"What we have found is that this is not the case. It isn't that young
people
at university are not able to do this - it's not been an integral part of
their programme and it's not been encouraged and supported by the way in
which they are assessed.
No university particularly wants numeracy. The ability to think - now THAT'S
a different matter.
"It's not their fault, nor is it the fault of their teachers."
Yeah - blame no-one.
Political report.
Even pupils with GCSE and A-level maths were having to take remedial
classes
once they arrived at university.
Well isn't that a supprise! It's always been that way.
I have 'remedial' classes in Maths at Cambridge (and how many A-level
students are happy with vector calculus in n dimensions?) We're expected to
have done at least 2 A-levels in Maths - it's just that A-Level Maths isn't
Maths and never has been.
Mr Tomlinson says he is "quite convinced" that GCSEs in maths and English
language should not be seen as substitutes for basic numeracy and
literacy.
Well good for him.
But what's the point of numeracy? Seriously - in these days who cares, leave
it to a computer processor.
(And while I'm at it what's the point of GCSE Maths?)
"As the syllabus has developed and the assessment methods have developed,
it's very difficult to say with assurance that someone getting a
particular
grade in those subjects has those basic skills at the level required."
That's because GCSE Maths isn't meant to test numeracy.
Nor is GCSE English meant to test literacy.
An important element in Mr Tomlinson's report is that students will be
offered the choice of taking a "specialised" diploma focusing on arts or
sciences or a more general "open"one.
Ah - so now students have to decide what they're giong to study before they
even reach A-Level. I know quite a few people who took science, humanity and
arts A-levels.
Those choosing the science diploma would be required to take an
appropriate
maths course as well as basic maths.
Well I suppose that would be a good idea as long as it was remotely useful.
replace discredited coursework, in which there is currently much
scope for plagiarism.
Don't forget that marking is random at best!
I think they should roll dice to determine marks - it's a fairer system (and
before anybody thinks I may be bitter I should point out that I was at least
reasonably lucky)
Alun Harford
.
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| User: "Uncle Davey" |
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| Title: Re: This is for RF and anyone else who thinks the UK's education system is so brilliant |
18 Feb 2004 01:25:48 AM |
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|
Użytkownik "Alun Harford" <alunharford@yahoo.com> napisał w wiadomości
news:c0th5k$ho6$1@pegasus.csx.cam.ac.uk...
"Uncle Davey" <noway@jose.com> wrote in message
news:c0t899$9je$0@pita.alt.net...
Look what a mess they've made of it.
They're trying to stop kids from being allowed to take a lot of gcses
now.
No. An individual has recommended it in a report.
BIG difference.
When I was a kid it was O levels, and I got thirteen, and one thing you
can
say is it enables you to get very broad in your basic education before
starting to specialise, and now they are against that.
No it didn't. It gave you very broad schooling.
I guess British kids
are gonna get dumber and dumber until they won't have the ability
required
to clean a toilet.
Have you seen toilets in student houses?
We're already there. :-)
Exams fail generation of pupils
Tuesday February 17, 2004
The Guardian
The secondary school examination and assessment system is so flawed that
even high-achievers with strings of top-grade GCSEs are leaving school
with
poor basic skills in numeracy and literacy,
That's because numeracy and literacy are not taught.
This morning he will unveil sweeping changes to secondary school exams
under
which a new"diploma" framework may eventually replace GCSEs, A-levels
and
other qualifications for the 14-19 age group.
Oh great - yet another crap scheme that'll change a year later.
Fortunately,
IT'S JUST A REPORT BY ONE MAN.
Crucially, all will be required to study a "core" of English,
Already required in almost all cases.
maths
Well other than the fact that nobody ever studies much of that before
university level, 'numerical trivia' is already done at GCSE.
And I don't see them introducing real Maths before the second year of a
F.Maths A-Level.
and
information and communication technology,
Very few teachers have the skills required to teach ICT.
And why do I get the feeling that this will basically mean 'Microsoft'?
The man's a moron.
likely to be set at a higher
standard than today's GCSE.
Depends on what 'standard' is used - this will probably mean that they'll
decide on things like "students may not use calculators" (Make the exam
completely pointless as any real counting is done on a computer - but at
least it means it's easy to come up with rubbish questions)
The man's a moron.
Mr Tomlinson hopes it will go a considerable way
towards meeting the widespread concern about poor skills.
Is this education or politics? I suspect the latter.
"If accepted, it will have a huge impact on our education system. That
weighs heavy because it must be right. It has to be implemented in a
planned, systematic way," he says.
It has to be rejected by parliament. Fortunately, I suspect it will be.
Students needed to be set greater challenges in the exam system. "We
talk
about challenge at A-level but for many young people there isn't much of
a
challenge presented by GCSE."
Not much challange at A-level either.
The assumption had always been that poor literacy and numeracy were
associated with poor achievement.
Who on earth made that assumption? How many doctors have great
handwriting?
How many mathematicians are good at numeracy?
"What we have found is that this is not the case. It isn't that young
people
at university are not able to do this - it's not been an integral part
of
their programme and it's not been encouraged and supported by the way in
which they are assessed.
No university particularly wants numeracy. The ability to think - now
THAT'S
a different matter.
"It's not their fault, nor is it the fault of their teachers."
Yeah - blame no-one.
Political report.
Even pupils with GCSE and A-level maths were having to take remedial
classes
once they arrived at university.
Well isn't that a supprise! It's always been that way.
I have 'remedial' classes in Maths at Cambridge (and how many A-level
students are happy with vector calculus in n dimensions?) We're expected
to
have done at least 2 A-levels in Maths - it's just that A-Level Maths
isn't
Maths and never has been.
Mr Tomlinson says he is "quite convinced" that GCSEs in maths and
English
language should not be seen as substitutes for basic numeracy and
literacy.
Well good for him.
But what's the point of numeracy? Seriously - in these days who cares,
leave
it to a computer processor.
(And while I'm at it what's the point of GCSE Maths?)
"As the syllabus has developed and the assessment methods have
developed,
it's very difficult to say with assurance that someone getting a
particular
grade in those subjects has those basic skills at the level required."
That's because GCSE Maths isn't meant to test numeracy.
Nor is GCSE English meant to test literacy.
An important element in Mr Tomlinson's report is that students will be
offered the choice of taking a "specialised" diploma focusing on arts or
sciences or a more general "open"one.
Ah - so now students have to decide what they're giong to study before
they
even reach A-Level. I know quite a few people who took science, humanity
and
arts A-levels.
Those choosing the science diploma would be required to take an
appropriate
maths course as well as basic maths.
Well I suppose that would be a good idea as long as it was remotely
useful.
replace discredited coursework, in which there is currently much
scope for plagiarism.
Don't forget that marking is random at best!
I think they should roll dice to determine marks - it's a fairer system
(and
before anybody thinks I may be bitter I should point out that I was at
least
reasonably lucky)
Alun Harford
A few things,
1. You say it's just a report by one man, but all the amendments that have
caused trouble in the education system have started as reports by one
person.
2. You say that numeracy doesn't need to be learned because computers do it,
and spelling checkers do the same for spelling, so matbe we don't need that
either, using the same argument, but both these things are part of what
actually teach people to think. They have the ability to think through
problems without switching on their laptops. Computers can't do your
thinking for you.
Kids have been told, "don't learn history dates, don't learn facts, don't
learn the multiplication tables, just learn how to think". But those other
things belong among the basic things you need before you can think
effectively. All teaching kids to think without giving them the wherewithal
to think independently does is give them a bunch of politically correct
opinions.
You're right, the more useless a system is, the more it becomes like a
lottery. Look at the justice system - instead of going to court, parties
might as well draw lots, these days, and save on the lawyers.
I knew a business manager once whose praises or rebukes to people on the
team seemed to have nothing to do with what they actually achieved. I said
he threw two dice, and looked at the difference between the two dice that he
threw for you, saying your name.
If the result is 0 (ie. he threw a double) then he throws again until it
isn't a double, then
If the result is 5, you get praised in front of the next meeting, and he
makes everyone applaud you.
If the result is 4, you get an honourable mention at the meeting
If the result is 3, you get completely ignored for the whole duration of his
visit
If the result is 2, you get criticised and reprimanded
If the result is 1, you get sacked in front of all your colleagues.
I call this "The Copenhagen School of Management".
Uncle Davey
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| User: "Bebbo" |
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| Title: Re: This is for RF and anyone else who thinks the UK's education system is so brilliant |
18 Feb 2004 10:29:54 AM |
|
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"Uncle Davey" <noway@jose.com> wrote in message news:<c0t899$9je$0@pita.alt.net>...
Look what a mess they've made of it.
They're trying to stop kids from being allowed to take a lot of gcses now.
When I was a kid it was O levels, and I got thirteen, and one thing you can
say is it enables you to get very broad in your basic education before
starting to specialise, and now they are against that. I guess British kids
are gonna get dumber and dumber until they won't have the ability required
to clean a toilet.
There was that TV programme recently called something like "That'll
teach them" where some kids underwent a 1950s style education for a
while. Even the high flying GCSE kids (predicted to get A grades) were
crap when it came to doing the O-levels.
[...]
.
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| User: "Alun Harford" |
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| Title: Re: This is for RF and anyone else who thinks the UK's education system is so brilliant |
18 Feb 2004 02:41:51 PM |
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|
"Bebbo" <dene_bebbo@yahoo.co.uk> wrote in message
news:b082b06f.0402180833.3a676a75@posting.google.com...
"Uncle Davey" <noway@jose.com> wrote in message
news:<c0t899$9je$0@pita.alt.net>...
Look what a mess they've made of it.
They're trying to stop kids from being allowed to take a lot of gcses
now.
When I was a kid it was O levels, and I got thirteen, and one thing you
can
say is it enables you to get very broad in your basic education before
starting to specialise, and now they are against that. I guess British
kids
are gonna get dumber and dumber until they won't have the ability
required
to clean a toilet.
There was that TV programme recently called something like "That'll
teach them" where some kids underwent a 1950s style education for a
while. Even the high flying GCSE kids (predicted to get A grades) were
crap when it came to doing the O-levels.
Very true, but the fact of the matter is that they weren't prepared for that
style of exams.
If you put a pupil into an exam by a different exam *BOARD* then they're
going to drop a grade or two.
And equally, if you put an O-level candidate into a GCSE exam they'd
probably fail.
Alun Harford
.
|
|
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| User: "Bebbo" |
|
| Title: Re: This is for RF and anyone else who thinks the UK's education system is so brilliant |
19 Feb 2004 04:13:21 AM |
|
|
"Alun Harford" <alunharford@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:<c10isd$a1j$1@pegasus.csx.cam.ac.uk>...
"Bebbo" <dene_bebbo@yahoo.co.uk> wrote in message
news:b082b06f.0402180833.3a676a75@posting.google.com...
"Uncle Davey" <noway@jose.com> wrote in message
news:<c0t899$9je$0@pita.alt.net>...
Look what a mess they've made of it.
They're trying to stop kids from being allowed to take a lot of gcses
now.
When I was a kid it was O levels, and I got thirteen, and one thing you
can
say is it enables you to get very broad in your basic education before
starting to specialise, and now they are against that. I guess British
kids
are gonna get dumber and dumber until they won't have the ability
required
to clean a toilet.
There was that TV programme recently called something like "That'll
teach them" where some kids underwent a 1950s style education for a
while. Even the high flying GCSE kids (predicted to get A grades) were
crap when it came to doing the O-levels.
Very true, but the fact of the matter is that they weren't prepared for that
style of exams.
If you put a pupil into an exam by a different exam *BOARD* then they're
going to drop a grade or two.
And equally, if you put an O-level candidate into a GCSE exam they'd
probably fail.
I don't know how long the TV experiment lasted for, but presumably
they were preparing for an O-level style exam during it? There
certainly seemed to be a different focus between O-level and GCSE, for
example, in French they said that GCSE is predominantly oral whereas
they were hopeless at knowing French verbs etc for the O-level.
.
|
|
|
| User: "Uncle Davey" |
|
| Title: Re: This is for RF and anyone else who thinks the UK's education system is so brilliant |
19 Feb 2004 05:02:56 AM |
|
|
Użytkownik "Bebbo" <dene_bebbo@yahoo.co.uk> napisał w wiadomości
news:b082b06f.0402190216.4ff69259@posting.google.com...
"Alun Harford" <alunharford@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:<c10isd$a1j$1@pegasus.csx.cam.ac.uk>...
"Bebbo" <dene_bebbo@yahoo.co.uk> wrote in message
news:b082b06f.0402180833.3a676a75@posting.google.com...
"Uncle Davey" <noway@jose.com> wrote in message
news:<c0t899$9je$0@pita.alt.net>...
Look what a mess they've made of it.
They're trying to stop kids from being allowed to take a lot of
gcses
now.
When I was a kid it was O levels, and I got thirteen, and one thing
you
can
say is it enables you to get very broad in your basic education
before
starting to specialise, and now they are against that. I guess
British
kids
are gonna get dumber and dumber until they won't have the ability
required
to clean a toilet.
There was that TV programme recently called something like "That'll
teach them" where some kids underwent a 1950s style education for a
while. Even the high flying GCSE kids (predicted to get A grades) were
crap when it came to doing the O-levels.
Very true, but the fact of the matter is that they weren't prepared for
that
style of exams.
If you put a pupil into an exam by a different exam *BOARD* then they're
going to drop a grade or two.
And equally, if you put an O-level candidate into a GCSE exam they'd
probably fail.
I don't know how long the TV experiment lasted for, but presumably
they were preparing for an O-level style exam during it? There
certainly seemed to be a different focus between O-level and GCSE, for
example, in French they said that GCSE is predominantly oral whereas
they were hopeless at knowing French verbs etc for the O-level.
The vocabulary level for French O level when I did it was about 2,500 words.
How many is it for French GCSE now? 1500?
I doubt they even cover the present subjunctive or the past historic.
And at 'A' level, they don't have to read four set texts from literature any
more. They can just do 'topics'.
Well we did the topics and the texts as well.
Uncle Davey
.
|
|
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| User: "Alun Harford" |
|
| Title: Re: This is for RF and anyone else who thinks the UK's education system is so brilliant |
19 Feb 2004 04:24:32 PM |
|
|
"Uncle Davey" <noway@jose.com> wrote in message
news:c125b0$u96$0@pita.alt.net...
Użytkownik "Bebbo" <dene_bebbo@yahoo.co.uk> napisał w wiadomości
news:b082b06f.0402190216.4ff69259@posting.google.com...
"Alun Harford" <alunharford@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:<c10isd$a1j$1@pegasus.csx.cam.ac.uk>...
"Bebbo" <dene_bebbo@yahoo.co.uk> wrote in message
news:b082b06f.0402180833.3a676a75@posting.google.com...
"Uncle Davey" <noway@jose.com> wrote in message
news:<c0t899$9je$0@pita.alt.net>...
Look what a mess they've made of it.
They're trying to stop kids from being allowed to take a lot of
gcses
now.
When I was a kid it was O levels, and I got thirteen, and one
thing
you
can
say is it enables you to get very broad in your basic education
before
starting to specialise, and now they are against that. I guess
British
kids
are gonna get dumber and dumber until they won't have the ability
required
to clean a toilet.
There was that TV programme recently called something like "That'll
teach them" where some kids underwent a 1950s style education for a
while. Even the high flying GCSE kids (predicted to get A grades)
were
crap when it came to doing the O-levels.
Very true, but the fact of the matter is that they weren't prepared
for
that
style of exams.
If you put a pupil into an exam by a different exam *BOARD* then
they're
going to drop a grade or two.
And equally, if you put an O-level candidate into a GCSE exam they'd
probably fail.
I don't know how long the TV experiment lasted for, but presumably
they were preparing for an O-level style exam during it? There
certainly seemed to be a different focus between O-level and GCSE, for
example, in French they said that GCSE is predominantly oral whereas
they were hopeless at knowing French verbs etc for the O-level.
The vocabulary level for French O level when I did it was about 2,500
words.
How many is it for French GCSE now? 1500?
No specific level if it's anything like the German I did at the time.
There's more emphasis on speaking and listening than there is on reading and
writing in the language these days (good thing too).
On the other hand, I've seen questions intended to seperate the G 'passes'
from the 'fails':
German Listening Exam: Picture of a cat, picture of a dog, picture of a
rabbit. Tick the right box.
Speaker comes on the tape:
"Ah, Haustiere - Ich habe eine ***KAT***ze."
(Before you decide this is another terrible thing, bear in mind that nobody
considers a G a pass, so it's basically seperating the "terrible fail" from
the "didn't attend the exam - fail" candidates)
Alun Harford
.
|
|
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| User: "Uncle Davey" |
|
| Title: Re: This is for RF and anyone else who thinks the UK's education system is so brilliant |
20 Feb 2004 05:36:44 AM |
|
|
Użytkownik "Alun Harford" <alunharford@yahoo.com> napisał w wiadomości
news:c13d9a$nl9$1@pegasus.csx.cam.ac.uk...
"Uncle Davey" <noway@jose.com> wrote in message
news:c125b0$u96$0@pita.alt.net...
Użytkownik "Bebbo" <dene_bebbo@yahoo.co.uk> napisał w wiadomości
news:b082b06f.0402190216.4ff69259@posting.google.com...
"Alun Harford" <alunharford@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:<c10isd$a1j$1@pegasus.csx.cam.ac.uk>...
"Bebbo" <dene_bebbo@yahoo.co.uk> wrote in message
news:b082b06f.0402180833.3a676a75@posting.google.com...
"Uncle Davey" <noway@jose.com> wrote in message
news:<c0t899$9je$0@pita.alt.net>...
Look what a mess they've made of it.
They're trying to stop kids from being allowed to take a lot of
gcses
now.
When I was a kid it was O levels, and I got thirteen, and one
thing
you
can
say is it enables you to get very broad in your basic education
before
starting to specialise, and now they are against that. I guess
British
kids
are gonna get dumber and dumber until they won't have the
ability
required
to clean a toilet.
There was that TV programme recently called something like
"That'll
teach them" where some kids underwent a 1950s style education for
a
while. Even the high flying GCSE kids (predicted to get A grades)
were
crap when it came to doing the O-levels.
Very true, but the fact of the matter is that they weren't prepared
for
that
style of exams.
If you put a pupil into an exam by a different exam *BOARD* then
they're
going to drop a grade or two.
And equally, if you put an O-level candidate into a GCSE exam they'd
probably fail.
I don't know how long the TV experiment lasted for, but presumably
they were preparing for an O-level style exam during it? There
certainly seemed to be a different focus between O-level and GCSE, for
example, in French they said that GCSE is predominantly oral whereas
they were hopeless at knowing French verbs etc for the O-level.
The vocabulary level for French O level when I did it was about 2,500
words.
How many is it for French GCSE now? 1500?
No specific level if it's anything like the German I did at the time.
There's more emphasis on speaking and listening than there is on reading
and
writing in the language these days (good thing too).
Not good.
I'll tell you why.
When I speak German, there's always gonna be an accent.
My German accent is very good, good enough to make an Austrian think I'm
from Hamburg, but it wouldn't fool a North German, the same as my American
impersonation would fool another Brit, but probably the statesiders wouldn't
be fooled for more than a couple a seconds.
But when I write German, as long as I take care to avoid errors, then it's
just as good as any native. When I read, I read as fast as any native.
We are concentrating on things which are never going to be a language
learner's forte, and not encouraging students to excel in things which
really can be done to perfection.
On the other hand, I've seen questions intended to seperate the G 'passes'
from the 'fails':
German Listening Exam: Picture of a cat, picture of a dog, picture of a
rabbit. Tick the right box.
Speaker comes on the tape:
"Ah, Haustiere - Ich habe eine ***KAT***ze."
(Before you decide this is another terrible thing, bear in mind that
nobody
considers a G a pass, so it's basically seperating the "terrible fail"
from
the "didn't attend the exam - fail" candidates)
Alun Harford
I don't know whether you agree, but I can't help thinking that separating
the useless from the hopeless is a waste of time and money in the education
system.
These candidates, most of which will probably be male, ought to go to the
peacekeeping forces in Iraq and Afghanistan.
There is, after all, a job for everybody.
Uncle Davey
.
|
|
|
| User: "Alun Harford" |
|
| Title: Re: This is for RF and anyone else who thinks the UK's education system is so brilliant |
20 Feb 2004 04:06:05 PM |
|
|
"Uncle Davey" <noway@jose.com> wrote in message
news:c14rms$obe$0@pita.alt.net...
I don't know whether you agree, but I can't help thinking that separating
the useless from the hopeless is a waste of time and money in the
education
system.
These candidates, most of which will probably be male, ought to go to the
peacekeeping forces in Iraq and Afghanistan.
There is, after all, a job for everybody.
No, put them where they're not going to get people killed.
'Peacekeeping'? - you didn't seem much like the spin type.
Alun Harford
.
|
|
|
| User: "Uncle Davey" |
|
| Title: Re: This is for RF and anyone else who thinks the UK's education system is so brilliant |
22 Feb 2004 03:00:42 PM |
|
|
Użytkownik "Alun Harford" <alunharford@yahoo.com> napisał w wiadomości
news:c160iu$4hn$1@pegasus.csx.cam.ac.uk...
"Uncle Davey" <noway@jose.com> wrote in message
news:c14rms$obe$0@pita.alt.net...
I don't know whether you agree, but I can't help thinking that
separating
the useless from the hopeless is a waste of time and money in the
education
system.
These candidates, most of which will probably be male, ought to go to
the
peacekeeping forces in Iraq and Afghanistan.
There is, after all, a job for everybody.
No, put them where they're not going to get people killed.
'Peacekeeping'? - you didn't seem much like the spin type.
Alun Harford
I should have put peacekeeping in inverted commas.
Uncle Davey
.
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| User: "Uncle Davey" |
|
| Title: Re: This is for RF and anyone else who thinks the UK's education system is so brilliant |
19 Feb 2004 03:10:32 AM |
|
|
Użytkownik "Alun Harford" <alunharford@yahoo.com> napisał w wiadomości
news:c10isd$a1j$1@pegasus.csx.cam.ac.uk...
"Bebbo" <dene_bebbo@yahoo.co.uk> wrote in message
news:b082b06f.0402180833.3a676a75@posting.google.com...
"Uncle Davey" <noway@jose.com> wrote in message
news:<c0t899$9je$0@pita.alt.net>...
Look what a mess they've made of it.
They're trying to stop kids from being allowed to take a lot of gcses
now.
When I was a kid it was O levels, and I got thirteen, and one thing
you
can
say is it enables you to get very broad in your basic education before
starting to specialise, and now they are against that. I guess British
kids
are gonna get dumber and dumber until they won't have the ability
required
to clean a toilet.
There was that TV programme recently called something like "That'll
teach them" where some kids underwent a 1950s style education for a
while. Even the high flying GCSE kids (predicted to get A grades) were
crap when it came to doing the O-levels.
Very true, but the fact of the matter is that they weren't prepared for
that
style of exams.
If you put a pupil into an exam by a different exam *BOARD* then they're
going to drop a grade or two.
And equally, if you put an O-level candidate into a GCSE exam they'd
probably fail.
Alun Harford
I seriously doubt that.
Uncle Davey
.
|
|
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|
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| User: "Uncle Davey" |
|
| Title: Re: This is for RF and anyone else who thinks the UK's education system is so brilliant |
19 Feb 2004 02:44:12 AM |
|
|
Użytkownik "Bebbo" <dene_bebbo@yahoo.co.uk> napisał w wiadomości
news:b082b06f.0402180833.3a676a75@posting.google.com...
"Uncle Davey" <noway@jose.com> wrote in message
news:<c0t899$9je$0@pita.alt.net>...
Look what a mess they've made of it.
They're trying to stop kids from being allowed to take a lot of gcses
now.
When I was a kid it was O levels, and I got thirteen, and one thing you
can
say is it enables you to get very broad in your basic education before
starting to specialise, and now they are against that. I guess British
kids
are gonna get dumber and dumber until they won't have the ability
required
to clean a toilet.
There was that TV programme recently called something like "That'll
teach them" where some kids underwent a 1950s style education for a
while. Even the high flying GCSE kids (predicted to get A grades) were
crap when it came to doing the O-levels.
[...]
I heard about that and I wish I'd seen it.
It did go on BBC Prime as well, I think, but I missed it.
Here in Russia at the moment I'm living in a place where the administrators
don't know how to set up satellite downlinks properly, so I've only got
Russian channels. Still, it makes a change because I can watch the old
channel I was FD of for a while, which I can't get in Poland because it's
not on satellite (well it is, but it's on Yamal 102, which can't be seen in
Warsaw without a two metre dish and I don't think I'm gonna get away with
that one.) There are some British programmes such as Smack the Pony on every
day, but obviously dubbed, so you don't get the full humour of the original
actors.
Uncle Davey
.
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| User: "JPG" |
|
| Title: Re: This is for RF and anyone else who thinks the UK's education system is so brilliant |
17 Feb 2004 08:59:42 AM |
|
|
On Tue, 17 Feb 2004 14:22:48 +0000 (UTC), "Uncle Davey" <noway@jose.com> wrote:
Look what a mess they've made of it.
They're trying to stop kids from being allowed to take a lot of gcses now.
When I was a kid it was O levels, and I got thirteen, and one thing you can
say is it enables you to get very broad in your basic education before
starting to specialise, and now they are against that. I guess British kids
are gonna get dumber and dumber until they won't have the ability required
to clean a toilet.
Progressive teaching methods allied with a desire to reduce individual
competitiveness caused a lot of damage in the 60s and 70s. We now have a
generation many members of which can't spell, punctuate, form a coherent spoken
sentence and who don't know what a percentage is.
Nevertheless you don't get to be number 4 in world economic terms with a
population of thickos.
JPG
Uncle Davey
.
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| User: "Uncle Davey" |
|
| Title: Re: This is for RF and anyone else who thinks the UK's education system is so brilliant |
17 Feb 2004 09:43:15 AM |
|
|
Użytkownik "JPG" <ME@privacy.net> napisał w wiadomości
news:70b430li419n8pu8j05jadnm022lg329nu@4ax.com...
On Tue, 17 Feb 2004 14:22:48 +0000 (UTC), "Uncle Davey" <noway@jose.com>
wrote:
Look what a mess they've made of it.
They're trying to stop kids from being allowed to take a lot of gcses
now.
When I was a kid it was O levels, and I got thirteen, and one thing you
can
say is it enables you to get very broad in your basic education before
starting to specialise, and now they are against that. I guess British
kids
are gonna get dumber and dumber until they won't have the ability
required
to clean a toilet.
Progressive teaching methods allied with a desire to reduce individual
competitiveness caused a lot of damage in the 60s and 70s. We now have a
generation many members of which can't spell, punctuate, form a coherent
spoken
sentence and who don't know what a percentage is.
Nevertheless you don't get to be number 4 in world economic terms with a
population of thickos.
JPG
I think you will be surprised how quickly that changes to 5, 6, 7 , 8 and
then we drop out of the G8 altogether.
There are a few people turning around a lot of money in banks, but in fact
many people in the UK live like in a third world country, several families
to a flat, and sleeping under bridges is more commonplace in London than in
Moscow.
They think they are well off because they earn several times more than the
Poles, but what is that worth when they pay double what the Poles pay to
live at the same level or worse and eat the same, or worse, food?
My parents didn't understand why I lived in an East European country until
they came here and saw with their own eyes. It took ten years of living in
Poland for me to persuade them to come over, and as soon as they did, they
were immediately smitten, and they'll probably take all their holidays there
now, instead of in France, which has been put firmly on the baque beurneure.
Uncle Davey
.
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| User: "Alun Harford" |
|
| Title: Re: This is for RF and anyone else who thinks the UK's education system is so brilliant |
17 Feb 2004 12:54:00 PM |
|
|
"Uncle Davey" <noway@jose.com> wrote in message
news:c0tcvv$l62$0@pita.alt.net...
There are a few people turning around a lot of money in banks, but in fact
many people in the UK live like in a third world country, several families
to a flat, and sleeping under bridges is more commonplace in London than
in
Moscow.
Not been to many third world countries then, have you?
Alun Harford
.
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| User: "Uncle Davey" |
|
| Title: Re: This is for RF and anyone else who thinks the UK's education system is so brilliant |
18 Feb 2004 03:52:49 AM |
|
|
Użytkownik "Alun Harford" <alunharford@yahoo.com> napisał w wiadomości
news:c0to5c$nl5$1@pegasus.csx.cam.ac.uk...
"Uncle Davey" <noway@jose.com> wrote in message
news:c0tcvv$l62$0@pita.alt.net...
There are a few people turning around a lot of money in banks, but in
fact
many people in the UK live like in a third world country, several
families
to a flat, and sleeping under bridges is more commonplace in London than
in
Moscow.
Not been to many third world countries then, have you?
Alun Harford
Heh. According to some people, I'm in one right now.
From my window I can see the fringe of a forest, and according to the map, I
could find a very indirect way of walking which would leave me never having
to go more than a mile or so without woodland from here to Siberia.
Now what was the statistic again, about how many feet people in London are
never more than away from a rat?
Uncle Davey
.
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| User: "Therion Ware" |
|
| Title: Re: This is for RF and anyone else who thinks the UK's education system is so brilliant |
18 Feb 2004 04:19:19 AM |
|
|
On Wed, 18 Feb 2004 09:52:49 +0000 (UTC) in alt.atheism, Uncle Davey
("Uncle Davey" <noway@jose.com>) said, directing the reply to
alt.atheism
Użytkownik "Alun Harford" <alunharford@yahoo.com> napisał w wiadomości
news:c0to5c$nl5$1@pegasus.csx.cam.ac.uk...
"Uncle Davey" <noway@jose.com> wrote in message
news:c0tcvv$l62$0@pita.alt.net...
There are a few people turning around a lot of money in banks, but in
fact
many people in the UK live like in a third world country, several
families
to a flat, and sleeping under bridges is more commonplace in London than
in
Moscow.
Not been to many third world countries then, have you?
Alun Harford
Heh. According to some people, I'm in one right now.
From my window I can see the fringe of a forest, and according to the map, I
could find a very indirect way of walking which would leave me never having
to go more than a mile or so without woodland from here to Siberia.
Now what was the statistic again, about how many feet people in London are
never more than away from a rat?
I think it was 20 feet, but some people think you have to factor in
how far you live from Downing Street for a truly accurate answer.
--
"Do Unto Others As You Would Have Them Do Unto You."
- Attrib: Pauline Reage.
Inexpensive VHS & other video to CD/DVD conversion?
See: <http://www.Video2CD.com>. 35.00 gets your video on DVD.
all posts to this email address are automatically deleted without being read.
** atheist poster child #1 ** #442.
.
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| User: "Uncle Davey" |
|
| Title: Re: This is for RF and anyone else who thinks the UK's education system is so brilliant |
18 Feb 2004 09:11:50 AM |
|
|
Użytkownik "Therion Ware" <autodelete@city-of-dis.com> napisał w wiadomości
news:q5f630df96lpn13okrbf8bq41e5e09mb7p@4ax.com...
On Wed, 18 Feb 2004 09:52:49 +0000 (UTC) in alt.atheism, Uncle Davey
("Uncle Davey" <noway@jose.com>) said, directing the reply to
alt.atheism
Użytkownik "Alun Harford" <alunharford@yahoo.com> napisał w wiadomości
news:c0to5c$nl5$1@pegasus.csx.cam.ac.uk...
"Uncle Davey" <noway@jose.com> wrote in message
news:c0tcvv$l62$0@pita.alt.net...
There are a few people turning around a lot of money in banks, but in
fact
many people in the UK live like in a third world country, several
families
to a flat, and sleeping under bridges is more commonplace in London
than
in
Moscow.
Not been to many third world countries then, have you?
Alun Harford
Heh. According to some people, I'm in one right now.
From my window I can see the fringe of a forest, and according to the
map, I
could find a very indirect way of walking which would leave me never
having
to go more than a mile or so without woodland from here to Siberia.
Now what was the statistic again, about how many feet people in London
are
never more than away from a rat?
I think it was 20 feet, but some people think you have to factor in
how far you live from Downing Street for a truly accurate answer.
Heh heh heh heh.
Uncle Davey
.
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| User: "Ian Rennie" |
|
| Title: Re: This is for RF and anyone else who thinks the UK's education system is so brilliant |
17 Feb 2004 12:31:25 PM |
|
|
"Uncle Davey" <noway@jose.com> wrote in message news:<c0tcvv$l62$0@pita.alt.net>...
<snip>
There are a few people turning around a lot of money in banks, but in fact
many people in the UK live like in a third world country, several families
to a flat, and sleeping under bridges is more commonplace in London than in
Moscow.
<snip>
I'm sorry, but that's a load of nonsense.
maybe I'm biased by, you know, having LIVED in the UK for several of
the last ten years, but I'd say the average standard of living is
higher than, for example, the average standard of living in the USA
where I am now resident. Sure, there are some people suffering
intently from poverty, but unlike many countries there is at least a
decent welfare safety net that can get you back on your feet.
I'm hardly a die-hard patriot, but your suggestion that the UK is a
dwindling economy soon to perish is a load of nonsense.
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| User: "Uncle Davey" |
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| Title: Re: This is for RF and anyone else who thinks the UK's education system is so brilliant |
18 Feb 2004 03:45:27 AM |
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Użytkownik "Ian Rennie" <i_rennie@hotmail.com> napisał w wiadomości
news:79b2c87c.0402171034.6317dad7@posting.google.com...
"Uncle Davey" <noway@jose.com> wrote in message
news:<c0tcvv$l62$0@pita.alt.net>...
<snip>
There are a few people turning around a lot of money in banks, but in
fact
many people in the UK live like in a third world country, several
families
to a flat, and sleeping under bridges is more commonplace in London than
in
Moscow.
<snip>
I'm sorry, but that's a load of nonsense.
maybe I'm biased by, you know, having LIVED in the UK for several of
the last ten years, but I'd say the average standard of living is
higher than, for example, the average standard of living in the USA
where I am now resident. Sure, there are some people suffering
intently from poverty, but unlike many countries there is at least a
decent welfare safety net that can get you back on your feet.
I'm hardly a die-hard patriot, but your suggestion that the UK is a
dwindling economy soon to perish is a load of nonsense.
I'm not surprised by what you say about the US, because some people I know
from Poland who went there were very disappointed and say it's not like the
movies at all. Well to that I say there's no shortage of films from America
showing a very shall we say realist view of life over there, so if it's even
worse than that, then it must be bad. Despite being the dominant economy it
seems to me a lot of our American friends on here are working long hours
with little holiday for relatively low wages. At least the prices are also
lower, as I understand it. I must finally go there some time. I've seen
Americans complaining about the prices in Poland, and Poland is of course
cheap as chips in comparison to the UK.
I can only suggest if you would like to see how large the overlap is between
Russia and the UK, then look at the 400,000 or so Russians currently living
in the UK, and you will find that they are living in no way lower than the
average standard of living, and some, like Berezovsky, well above it. Also
note how Chelsea football club was recently bought by one of Russia's army
of millionaires.
The UK has old money and as a financial center keeps the numbers pumping
through the economy. We produce little, and have a bloated service sector.
The balloon is pumped up by unrealistic wages and unrealistic house prices
vis a vis the rest of Europe. To suggest that the UK will keep growing
indefinitely is a grave error, there must be a problem coming even though
the UK was less harmed by this last recession than many other countries. The
UK is sorely socially leveraged by what you call the welfare safety net,
which for some people is more like their welfare bouncy castle, and they
will not get their shoes back on and get off no matter how much nanny calls.
We have a problem with non-selective immigration - we don't take the people
based on their qualifications but only based on how dire their need is,
which can sometimes be the converse, so we are getting the hopeless cases
while countries like Germany and the US, which are not ashamed to select the
brains and drain them, get the cream.
Russia on the other hand, seems destined for growth. Putin's plan to grow
the ecomomy by 100% by the end of the decade seems quite attainable, if he
invests the oil money into a broader based production economy, reforms the
tax system and controls corruption and the mafia. I wouldn't be surprised if
he could get well beyond that target, and then we are of course looking at
Russia attaining 4th place if we don't manage to keep pace.
In the long term this is probably inevitable anyway, as Russia has huge
untapped reserves, whereas we have trouble finding space for new houses.
Uncle Davey
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| User: "JPG" |
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| Title: Re: This is for RF and anyone else who thinks the UK's education system is so brilliant |
19 Feb 2004 04:07:24 AM |
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On Wed, 18 Feb 2004 09:45:27 +0000 (UTC), "Uncle Davey" <noway@jose.com> wrote:
Użytkownik "Ian Rennie" <i_rennie@hotmail.com> napisał w wiadomości
news:79b2c87c.0402171034.6317dad7@posting.google.com...
"Uncle Davey" <noway@jose.com> wrote in message
news:<c0tcvv$l62$0@pita.alt.net>...
<snip>
There are a few people turning around a lot of money in banks, but in
fact
many people in the UK live like in a third world country, several
families
to a flat, and sleeping under bridges is more commonplace in London than
in
Moscow.
<snip>
Personally I'm glad that miserable pessimists and UK-bashers like yourself are
slumming it in Eastern Europe.
I wonder why it is that Russian chippies, Hungarian plasterers, Slovak sparkies,
Polish brickies and Kosovan labourers are hot-footing it to the UK to work on
the burgeoning construction projects?
I've no doubt that with the good work ethic of Eastern Europe, especially in the
central European countries such as The Czech Republic and Hungary, they will
prosper in years to come but they still have a way to go.
I fear the Catholic Church may slow Poland's progress, though.
JPG
Uncle Davey
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| User: "Uncle Davey" |
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| Title: Re: This is for RF and anyone else who thinks the UK's education system is so brilliant |
19 Feb 2004 06:39:44 AM |
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Użytkownik "JPG" <ME@PRIVACY.NET> napisał w wiadomości
news:lc2930l8381ihbpm0or7n46pe8kpuqbon9@4ax.com...
On Wed, 18 Feb 2004 09:45:27 +0000 (UTC), "Uncle Davey" <noway@jose.com>
wrote:
Użytkownik "Ian Rennie" <i_rennie@hotmail.com> napisał w wiadomości
news:79b2c87c.0402171034.6317dad7@posting.google.com...
"Uncle Davey" <noway@jose.com> wrote in message
news:<c0tcvv$l62$0@pita.alt.net>...
<snip>
There are a few people turning around a lot of money in banks, but in
fact
many people in the UK live like in a third world country, several
families
to a flat, and sleeping under bridges is more commonplace in London
than
in
Moscow.
<snip>
Personally I'm glad that miserable pessimists and UK-bashers like yourself
are
slumming it in Eastern Europe.
I am only criticising the UK because it pains me to see what is happening
there. If I didn't care, I wouldn't bother to comment.
I wonder why it is that Russian chippies, Hungarian plasterers, Slovak
sparkies,
Polish brickies and Kosovan labourers are hot-footing it to the UK to work
on
the burgeoning construction projects?
Much less so these days than twleve years ago, as far as Polish people are
concerned.
But they will come and be happy to work for the minimal wage in the UK
because it is very high, but that isn't necessarily a good thing. Money will
simply drain out of the UK that way in a re-allocation of wealth as the east
Europeans send it home.
Which they will, when a grotty two-bedroom flat within an hour of central
London buys a three storey house set on 1000 m2 in the forest within an hour
of the Rondo Centralne in Warsaw.
I've no doubt that with the good work ethic of Eastern Europe, especially
in the
central European countries such as The Czech Republic and Hungary, they
will
prosper in years to come but they still have a way to go.
I fear the Catholic Church may slow Poland's progress, though.
Have no fear of that. The next Pope will probably be Italian or something,
then the removal of the popularity factor of having Karol Wojtyla as a
Polish pope will certainly be felt in this country.
It's the farmers who will slow Poland, if anyone, but then again it's good
to have one's own food.
Uncle Davey
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| User: "syvanen" |
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| Title: Re: This is for RF and anyone else who thinks the UK's education system is so brilliant |
17 Feb 2004 02:28:13 PM |
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"Uncle Davey" <noway@jose.com> wrote in message news:<c0tcvv$l62$0@pita.alt.net>...
Użytkownik "JPG" <ME@privacy.net> napisał w wiadomości
news:70b430li419n8pu8j05jadnm022lg329nu@4ax.com...
On Tue, 17 Feb 2004 14:22:48 +0000 (UTC), "Uncle Davey" <noway@jose.com>
wrote:
Look what a mess they've made of it.
They're trying to stop kids from being allowed to take a lot of gcses
now.
When I was a kid it was O levels, and I got thirteen, and one thing you
can
say is it enables you to get very broad in your basic education before
starting to specialise, and now they are against that. I guess British
kids
are gonna get dumber and dumber until they won't have the ability
required
to clean a toilet.
Progressive teaching methods allied with a desire to reduce individual
competitiveness caused a lot of damage in the 60s and 70s. We now have a
generation many members of which can't spell, punctuate, form a coherent
spoken
sentence and who don't know what a percentage is.
Nevertheless you don't get to be number 4 in world economic terms with a
population of thickos.
JPG
I think you will be surprised how quickly that changes to 5, 6, 7 , 8 and
then we drop out of the G8 altogether.
There are a few people turning around a lot of money in banks, but in fact
many people in the UK live like in a third world country, several families
to a flat, and sleeping under bridges is more commonplace in London than in
Moscow.
They think they are well off because they earn several times more than the
Poles, but what is that worth when they pay double what the Poles pay to
live at the same level or worse and eat the same, or worse, food?
British food is horrible not because of price but because they like it that way.
Mike Syvanen
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| User: "zzzzara" |
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| Title: Re: This is for RF and anyone else who thinks the UK's education system is so brilliant |
20 Feb 2004 09:03:45 AM |
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(syvanen) wrote in message news:<fc3e7e23.0402171229.4cb3a91d@posting.google.com>...
"Uncle Davey" <noway@jose.com> wrote in message news:<c0tcvv$l62$0@pita.alt.net>...
Użytkownik "JPG" <ME@privacy.net> napisał w wiadomości
news:70b430li419n8pu8j05jadnm022lg329nu@4ax.com...
On Tue, 17 Feb 2004 14:22:48 +0000 (UTC), "Uncle Davey" <noway@jose.com>
wrote:
Look what a mess they've made of it.
They're trying to stop kids from being allowed to take a lot of gcses
now.
When I was a kid it was O levels, and I got thirteen, and one thing you
can
say is it enables you to get very broad in your basic education before
starting to specialise, and now they are against that. I guess British
kids
are gonna get dumber and dumber until they won't have the ability
required
to clean a toilet.
Progressive teaching methods allied with a desire to reduce individual
competitiveness caused a lot of damage in the 60s and 70s. We now have a
generation many members of which can't spell, punctuate, form a coherent
spoken
sentence and who don't know what a percentage is.
Nevertheless you don't get to be number 4 in world economic terms with a
population of thickos.
JPG
I think you will be surprised how quickly that changes to 5, 6, 7 , 8 and
then we drop out of the G8 altogether.
There are a few people turning around a lot of money in banks, but in fact
many people in the UK live like in a third world country, several families
to a flat, and sleeping under bridges is more commonplace in London than in
Moscow.
They think they are well off because they earn several times more than the
Poles, but what is that worth when they pay double what the Poles pay to
live at the same level or worse and eat the same, or worse, food?
British food is horrible not because of price but because they like it that way.
a ridiculous out of date stereotype. London's restaurants aren't
cheap, but only New York can compete for range and quality.
.
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| User: "Uncle Davey" |
|
| Title: Re: This is for RF and anyone else who thinks the UK's education system is so brilliant |
20 Feb 2004 09:57:20 AM |
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Użytkownik "zzzzara" <zzzzara@my-deja.com> napisał w wiadomości
news:a75dbe9c.0402200705.e81bf7e@posting.google.com...
syvanen@ucdavis.edu (syvanen) wrote in message
news:<fc3e7e23.0402171229.4cb3a91d@posting.google.com>...
"Uncle Davey" <noway@jose.com> wrote in message
news:<c0tcvv$l62$0@pita.alt.net>...
Użytkownik "JPG" <ME@privacy.net> napisał w wiadomości
news:70b430li419n8pu8j05jadnm022lg329nu@4ax.com...
On Tue, 17 Feb 2004 14:22:48 +0000 (UTC), "Uncle Davey"
<noway@jose.com>
wrote:
Look what a mess they've made of it.
They're trying to stop kids from being allowed to take a lot of
gcses
now.
When I was a kid it was O levels, and I got thirteen, and one thing
you
can
say is it enables you to get very broad in your basic education
before
starting to specialise, and now they are against that. I guess
British
kids
are gonna get dumber and dumber until they won't have the ability
required
to clean a toilet.
Progressive teaching methods allied with a desire to reduce
individual
competitiveness caused a lot of damage in the 60s and 70s. We now
have a
generation many members of which can't spell, punctuate, form a
coherent
spoken
sentence and who don't know what a percentage is.
Nevertheless you don't get to be number 4 in world economic terms
with a
population of thickos.
JPG
I think you will be surprised how quickly that changes to 5, 6, 7 , 8
and
then we drop out of the G8 altogether.
There are a few people turning around a lot of money in banks, but in
fact
many people in the UK live like in a third world country, several
families
to a flat, and sleeping under bridges is more commonplace in London
than in
Moscow.
They think they are well off because they earn several times more than
the
Poles, but what is that worth when they pay double what the Poles pay
to
live at the same level or worse and eat the same, or worse, food?
British food is horrible not because of price but because they like it
that way.
a ridiculous out of date stereotype. London's restaurants aren't
cheap, but only New York can compete for range and quality.
And inability to get a seat unless you book about a month aheadatime.
Or is that just on the movies?
Uncle Davey
.
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