| Topic: |
Religions > Atheism |
| User: |
"Desertphile" |
| Date: |
16 Nov 2005 12:42:24 AM |
| Object: |
This will come as no surprise to anyone with a brain |
http://www.latimes.com/travel/destinations/pacific/la-tm-mcmartin44oct30,0,=
285518.story?coll=3Dla-home-magazine
October 30, 2005 latimes.com : Travel : Pacific E-mail story Print
Most E-mailed
McMartin Pre-Schooler: 'I Lied'
A long-delayed apology from one of the accusers in the notorious
McMartin Pre-School molestation case
By Kyle Zirpolo, as told to Debbie Nathan
My mother divorced my father when I was 2 and she met my stepfather,
who was a police officer in Manhattan Beach. They had five children
after me. In addition, my stepfather has three older children. In the
combined family, I'm the only one of the nine children he didn't
father. I always remember wanting him to love me. I was always trying
excessively hard to please him. I would do anything for him.
My stepbrothers and stepsisters and a half-brother and half-sister went
to McMartin. So did I. I only remember being happy there. I never had
any bad feelings about the school-no bad auras or vibes or anything.
Even to this day, talking about it or seeing pictures or artwork that I
did at McMartin never brings any bad feelings. All my memories are
positive.
The thing I remember about the case was how it took over the whole city
and consumed our whole family. My parents would ask questions: "Did the
teachers ever do things to you?" They talked about Ray Buckey, whom I
had never met. I don't even have any recollection of him attending the
school when I was going there.
The first time I went to CII [Children's Institute International, now
known as Children's Institute, Inc., a respected century-old L.A.
County child welfare organization where approximately 400 former
McMartin children were interviewed and given genital exams, and where
many were diagnosed as abuse victims], we drove there, our whole
family. I remember waiting ... for hours while my brothers and sisters
were being interviewed. I don't remember how many days or if it was
just one day, but my memory tells me it was weeks, it seemed so long.
It was an ordeal. I remember thinking to myself, "I'm not going to get
out of here unless I tell them what they want to hear."
We were examined by a doctor. I took my clothes off and lay down on the
table. They checked my butt, my penis. There was a room with a lot of
toys and stuffed animals and dolls. The dolls were pasty white and had
hair where the private parts were. They wanted us to take off their
clothes. It was just really weird.
I remember them asking extremely uncomfortable questions about whether
Ray touched me and about all the teachers and what they did-and I
remember telling them nothing happened to me. I remember them almost
giggling and laughing, saying, "Oh, we know these things happened to
you. Why don't you just go ahead and tell us? Use these dolls if you're
scared."
Anytime I would give them an answer that they didn't like, they would
ask again and encourage me to give them the answer they were looking
for. It was really obvious what they wanted. I know the types of
language they used on me: things like I was smart, or I could help the
other kids who were scared.
I felt uncomfortable and a little ashamed that I was being dishonest.
But at the same time, being the type of person I was, whatever my
parents wanted me to do, I would do. And I thought they wanted me to
help protect my little brother and sister who went to McMartin.
Later my parents asked if the teachers took pictures and played games
with us. Games like "Naked Movie Star." I remember my mom asking me.
She would ask if they sang the song, and I didn't know what she was
talking about, so she would sing something like, "Who you are, you're a
naked movie star." I'm pretty sure that's the first time I ever heard
that: from my mom. After she asked me a hundred times, I probably said
yeah, I did play that game.
My parents were very encouraging when I said that things happened. It
was almost like saying things happened was going to help get these
people in jail and stop them from what they were trying to do to kids.
Also, there were so many kids saying all these things happened that you
didn't want to be the one who said nothing did. You wouldn't be
believed if you said that.
I remember feeling like they didn't pick just anybody-they picked me
because I had a good memory of what they wanted, and they could rely on
me to do a good job. I don't think they thought I was telling the
truth, just that I was telling the same stories consistently, doing
what needed to be done to get these teachers judged guilty. I felt
special. Important.
It always seemed like I was thinking. I would listen to what my parents
would say if they were talking, or to what someone else would say if we
were being questioned at the police station or anywhere. And I would
repeat things. Or if it wasn't a story I'd heard, I would think of
something in my head. I would try to think of the worst thing possible
that would be harmful to a child. I remember once I said that if you
had a cut, instead of putting a Band-Aid on it, the McMartin teachers
would put on dirt, then put the Band-Aid over the dirt. That was just
something in my head that was bad. I just thought of it and told [the
investigators].
I think I got the satanic details by picturing our church. We went to
American Martyrs, which was a huge Catholic church. Every Sunday we had
to go, and Mass would last an hour, hour and a half. None of us wanted
to go: It was kicking and screaming all the way there. Sitting,
standing, sitting, standing. What I would do was picture the altar,
pews and stained-glass windows, and if [investigators] said, "Describe
an altar," I would describe the one in our church. Or instead of,
"There was a priest in a green suit"-someone who was real-I would
say, "A man dressed in red as a cult member." From going to church you
know that God is good, and the devil is bad and has horns and is about
evil and red and blood. I'd just throw a twist in there with Satan and
devil-worshipping.
I remember going in our van with all my brothers and sisters and
driving to airports and houses and being asked if we had been [abused
in] these places. I remember telling people [that the McMartin
teachers] took us to Harry's Meat Market, and describing what I thought
the market was like. I had never been in there before, and I was fairly
certain I was going to get in trouble for what I was saying because it
probably was not accurate. I imagined someone would say, "They don't
have that kind of freezer there." And they did say that. But then
someone said, "Well, they could have changed it." It was like anything
and everything I said would be believed.
The lawyers had all my stories written down and knew exactly what I had
said before. So I knew I would have to say those exact things again and
not have anything be different, otherwise they would know I was lying.
I put a lot of pressure on myself. At night in bed, I would think hard
about things I had said in the past and try to repeat only the things I
knew I'd said before.
I remember describing going to an airport and Ray taking us somewhere
on an airplane. Then I realized the parents would have known the kids
were gone from the school. I felt I'd screwed up and my lie had been
caught-I was busted! I was so upset with myself! I remember breaking
down and crying. I felt everyone knew I was lying. But my parents said,
"You're doing fine. Don't worry." And everyone was saying how proud
they were of me, not to worry.
I'm not saying nothing happened to anyone else at the McMartin
Pre-School. I can't say that-I can only speak for myself. Maybe some
things did happen. Maybe some kids made up stories about things that
didn't really happen, and eventually started believing they were
telling the truth. Maybe some got scared that the teachers would get
their families because they were lying. But I never forgot I was lying.
My stepdad was a police officer who had guns in the house. I remember
when all of this was coming down, he was put on a leave of absence from
work because he was being investigated for supposedly threatening the
McMartin family. He was cleared of that accusation-apparently it
wasn't true. But being only 9 years old at the time, I thought my dad
was saying he would kill the McMartins. So in my mind, I figured no one
from the school was going to dare mess with him because he would have
hurt them first. That made me feel secure. It could be a reason I never
mixed up reality and fantasy and always knew I was lying.
But the lying really bothered me. One particular night stands out in my
mind. I was maybe 10 years old and I tried to tell my mom that nothing
had happened. I lay on the bed crying hysterically-I wanted to get it
off my chest, to tell her the truth. My mother kept asking me to please
tell her what was the matter. I said she would never believe me. She
persisted: "I promise I'll believe you! I love you so much! Tell me
what's bothering you!" This went on for a long time: I told her she
wouldn't believe me, and she kept assuring me she would. I remember
finally telling her, "Nothing happened! Nothing ever happened to me at
that school."
She didn't believe me.
We had a highly dysfunctional family. We argued and fought all the
time. My mother has always blamed anything negative on the idea that we
went to that preschool and were molested. To this day, she believes
these things went on. Because if they didn't, how can she explain all
the family's problems? To this day, I can't open up with her about my
personal problems. She's always asking me why I never do. That one
night skewed our relationship.
Once the case was over, it was just over, in the past. The defendants
were set free and that was it. The kids' parents never asked, "Why were
they innocent? Why were they unable to find evidence to convict these
people?"
My family has not seen the movies or read the books questioning the
prosecution. It's like skeletons in a closet that you just don't want
to take back out. I'm the only one who ever brings the topic up and who
admits nothing ever happened to me. I've said I lied about everything,
but I've never gotten a real response from my mother and stepfather. It
seems really strange, seeing their reaction to the fact that nothing
happened to me. If I had gone my whole life thinking my child was
molested, I would be elated to find out that he or she wasn't. I'd like
to think learning that your child was not molested would supersede
anything. After all, all you have is your next day. It would be a shame
to live the rest of your life thinking molestation had happened when
you could think it didn't.
McMartin is something negative in my life and I'm trying to make it a
positive. I've got two little kids I love dearly-they've changed the
priorities in my life. My goal is to raise them as best as I can and
try to lead by example. I want to be totally honest with them, to say,
"This is something that happened to me. I did something dishonest, then
at some point I was able to be honest about it." I want my children to
be able to come to me like I wish I could have with my parents.
I'm a supermarket manager, and the thing I like best about my job is
the interactions I get to have with customers' kids. I love talking and
listening to them. I've been told I would be perfect for opening a
children's day care. That's very ironic. I would love to look at the
defendants from the McMartin Pre-School and tell them, "I'm sorry."
*
How and Why Kyle Came Forward
By Debbie Nathan
I first heard from Kyle Zirpolo via e-mail early this summer. He
contacted me because I appear in the documentary film "Capturing the
Friedmans," which he had just seen.
Members of the Friedman family were accused of mass child molestation
in Long Island, N.Y., in the 1980s. Research I did years ago suggested
that many or all of the allegations were false, and in the film I talk
about this. I also discuss the McMartin case. I looked into it, while
coauthoring "Satan's Silence," a book about the national panic over sex
abuse in day-care centers and schools in the 1980s.
Zirpolo found my website and wrote that he was chilled by the film's
depiction of the Friedman family being destroyed by children's false
accusations: "It was basically the same as the McMartins. I did that. I
feel very ashamed."
Nothing he told police and prosecutors about being abused was true, he
added. He had regretted it for years. Now he wanted to apologize to the
defendants in person. I told Zirpolo I wanted to hear his story. I also
offered to put him in touch with the McMartin defendants.
Some are dead, including Virginia McMartin and her daughter Peggy
McMartin Buckey. Ray Buckey and his sister, Peggy Ann, as well as a
former McMartin teacher, Babette Spitler, declined to meet with
Zirpolo. They've always staunchly proclaimed their innocence, and say
they don't need apologies from former students, who were children and
couldn't help themselves. Peggy Ann has said that they would rather
hear from the police, social workers, therapists, prosecutors, doctors
and parents who fueled the case.
Zirpolo says his mother and stepfather divorced years ago. I couldn't
reach his stepfather, and when I contacted his mother for comment, she
declined. Zirpolo says she "doesn't agree" with his decision to tell
his story. As for his stepfather, all Zirpolo will say is that he's
very ill.
*
How Kyle's Story Snowballed
James M. Wood, a research psychologist at the University of Texas at El
Paso, has studied the McMartin interviews done by Children's Institute
International. Giving children dolls and puppets during a forensic
interview encourages them to pretend and fantasize instead of sticking
to facts, Wood says. When an interviewer refuses to take "no" for an
answer, this implies that another response is required-even if it's
not true. Saying that a defendant such as Ray Buckey is being followed
by undercover police implies that the accused is dangerous and that the
children should help lock him up. And, says Wood, telling children that
"everyone's talking" about the crime "creates conformity pressures that
are highly improper."
A few years ago, Wood did an experiment in which children were
questioned using McMartin interviewing techniques. After two or three
minutes, most of the kids started to make up bizarre stories. According
to Maggie Bruck, a psychiatry professor at Johns Hopkins University and
a researcher of children's memory and suggestibility, Wood's experiment
and others have led to a consensus among psychologists. They agree now
that CII's methods in the McMartin case were inappropriate.
CII Senior Vice President Steve Ambrose says his organization is "not
in the business of promoting false allegations and never has been.
McMartin was the first case of its type. [Experts have] learned a great
amount [since then] about how to interview children about sexual abuse
in ways that meet the needs of the criminal justice system. This
remains very difficult. But we're more sensitive now about making sure
that the way we interview kids will stand up in court and that what we
say will not be taken out of context."
The following is a condensed transcript of a March 10, 1984, CII
interview with Kyle Sapp, now known as Kyle Zirpolo. Sapp was
interviewed by two CII staffers.-D.N.
Kyle: Mr. Ray [Ray Buckey] didn't work there when I was in there.
Interviewer 1: What do you mean?
Kyle: Yeah, he didn't go there.
Interviewer 1: A long time ago some of the kids ... said that there
were some secrets from that school-some crummy things happened. And,
um, we told 'em about our secret machine right here, and our puppets
who are real smart guys like Mr. Snake Here's Pac-Man And, um, we told
'em how smart our puppets were and how they helped kids talk about some
stuff sometimes and we've been playing detective ... and maybe Pac-Man
could talk for you, or Snake, so you wouldn't have to....What do you
think?
Kyle: (nods).
=B7
Interviewer 1: We can talk about those secrets now, Pac-Man. And you
can help Kyle ... everybody's talking about it now.... You know what?
We're going to tell you one of our special secrets 'cause we have a
secret that we've been telling all the kids, and this one is-you're
going to like this one, Pac-Man, 'cause Kyle's dad is a policeman....
We know that sometimes Mr. Ray was at that school. He wasn't a teacher
then, but we know that he was at school. Do you remember that, Pac-Man?
Kyle: He didn't work there, but I know that when [another child] was
there, it happened.
Interviewer 1: Well, you know what? We know that even before Kyle was
there [Ray] was there. And we know that he was there when Kyle was
there too.
Kyle: They said on TV that he did something.
=B7
Interviewer 1: We know this about Mr. Ray: That sitting outside Mr.
Ray's house is a special policeman in a regular car. He doesn't wear a
uniform or anything like that, but he, um, sits in a regular-looking
car outside Mr. Ray's house.... He watches all the time, and if Mr. Ray
goes out of his house, then the secret policeman follows him.... He'll
be right behind him and he won't even know he's there....Think that's a
good idea, Pac-Man?
Kyle: Uh-huh.
=B7
Interviewer 1: We got a mountain of dolls here. Here's a little girl.
Easy to tell she's a girl. She has a bow, and her vagina's
underneath.... Kids throw 'em, beat 'em up, and everything. You
should've seen [another child] beating 'em up. Boy we had a good
time-
Interviewer 2: Beating up Mr. Ray doll.
Interviewer 1: And, um, let's see. I wonder, Pac-Man, if you remember
any of the games that you used to play at that school.
Kyle: Yeah.
Interviewer 1: Yeah? Like which ones do you remember?
Kyle: Like Mr. Ray-he would-he would get his camera, and then
he-they would-they would-he would take their pants off, and-and
then they would go in their pool and they-then he would take
pictures.
Interviewer 2: Your mom and dad already know that game 'cause they
heard it from other kids' moms and dads.
Interviewer 1: Did any other teachers play, Pac-Man?
Kyle: Yeah ... they took pictures too.
Interviewer 1: Oh, boy. Gee, we're really figuring this out. What a big
help you are. My goodness.
Kyle Zirpolo is a 30-year-old former McMartin Pre-School student who
now manages a supermarket on California's central coast. Debbie Nathan
is a writer in New York and coauthor, with appellate attorney Michael
Snedeker, of "Satan's Silence: Ritual Abuse and the Making of a Modern
American Witch Hunt." She also is a board member of the National Center
for Reason and Justice, a nonprofit group that works to educate the
public about people falsely charged with child abuse.
.
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| User: "Fredric L. Rice" |
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| Title: Re: This will come as no surprise to anyone with a brain |
16 Nov 2005 03:32:16 AM |
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"Desertphile" <desertphile@hotmail.com> wrote:
http://www.latimes.com/travel/destinations/pacific/la-tm-mcmartin44oct30,0,285518.story?coll=3Dla-home-magazine
October 30, 2005 latimes.com : Travel : Pacific E-mail story Print
Most E-mailed
McMartin Pre-Schooler: 'I Lied'
A long-delayed apology from one of the accusers in the notorious
McMartin Pre-School molestation case
Of course. We were both involved in the exposure of the Christian
parents who forced these children to lie so it's no news to us.
---
http://www.ElmerFudd.US/ http://www.rightard.org/ http://www.thedarkwind.org/
Yes, George W. Bush is a mass murdering Christian butcher. GET OVER IT!!!
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| User: "chibiabos" |
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| Title: Re: This will come as no surprise to anyone with a brain |
16 Nov 2005 02:36:39 AM |
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In article <1132101744.780985.158400@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com>,
Desertphile <desertphile@hotmail.com> wrote:
http://www.latimes.com/travel/destinations/pacific/la-tm-mcmartin44oct30,0,285
518.story?coll=la-home-magazine
October 30, 2005 latimes.com : Travel : Pacific E-mail story Print
Most E-mailed
McMartin Pre-Schooler: 'I Lied'
Incredible. I remember the McMartin case well. My son was in a private
preschool during this whole period. Preschools everywhere were in a
state of mortal fear that something similar would happen to them. We as
parents had to sign a document waiving our rights to sue if similar
accusations were made against our son's school. The document was
probably not binding, but it was an indication how serious false
accusations could be.
I remember thinking at the time that none of the accusations against
the McMartins could possibly be true, particularly because they seemed
to become more and more bizzare as revelation after revelation was
reported in the press. The whole thing was classic mass hysteria driven
by TV ratings and irrational and unproved pop psychology, and the egos
of certain law enforcement officials.
-chib
--
Member of S.M.A.S.H.
Sarcastic Middle-aged Atheists with a Sense of Humor
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| User: "Fredric L. Rice" |
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| Title: Re: This will come as no surprise to anyone with a brain |
16 Nov 2005 03:41:15 AM |
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chibiabos <chib@nospam.com> wrote:
In article <1132101744.780985.158400@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com>,
Desertphile <desertphile@hotmail.com> wrote:
http://www.latimes.com/travel/destinations/pacific/la-tm-mcmartin44oct30,0,285518.story?coll=la-home-magazine
I remember thinking at the time that none of the accusations against
the McMartins could possibly be true, particularly because they seemed
to become more and more bizzare as revelation after revelation was
reported in the press.
The parents were having their children claim that they had been
transported in underground tunnels to a local airport where they
were flown to Puru where they were ritually sexually raped,
murdered, then eaten -- after which they were sewn back together
again and transported back to the school where their parents could
pick them up in the after noon.
Such ***** made its way to the prosecuting District Attorney's
office who actually _ran_ with some of it knowing it was *****
that couldn't possibly happen. All the DA's office caed about was
whether the _Jury_ would be Christian enough to believe it.
---
http://www.ElmerFudd.US/ http://www.rightard.org/ http://www.thedarkwind.org/
Yes, George W. Bush is a mass murdering Christian butcher. GET OVER IT!!!
.
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