On Sat, 26 May 2007 11:00:52 -0500, David Hartung
<dhart1ng@quixnet.net> wrote:

3445 Dead wrote:

On Sat, 26 May 2007 08:10:37 -0500, David Hartung
<dhart1ng@quixnet.net> wrote:

Perhaps because they realized that to turn the entire country over to the
Communists would have been wrong?

Yes, much better to murder three million of them and then turn them
over to the communists anyway.

Would you care to support your claim that the government of South Vietnam
"murdered" three million of it's citizens?

Actually, it was the Americans who did that.

"Vietnam War" It was before your time, but I'm sure Wiki mentions it.

"David Hartung" <dhart1ng@quixnet.net> wrote in message
news:YvCdnXQwx6eK3sbbnZ2dnUVZ_ualnZ2d@comcast.com...

Mitchell Holman wrote:

David Hartung <dhart1ng@quixnet.net> wrote in
news:wKydnT1sdJRvrsXbnZ2dnUVZ_oHinZ2d@comcast.com:

Mitchell Holman wrote:

David Hartung <dhart1ng@quixnet.net> wrote in
news:b-mdnZsMN60UAcrbnZ2dnUVZ_uHinZ2d@comcast.com:

Mitchell Holman wrote:

David Hartung <dhart1ng@quixnet.net> wrote in
news:z6KdnatzsuD2dsvbnZ2dnUVZ_iydnZ2d@comcast.com:

Mitchell Holman wrote:

David Hartung <dhart1ng@quixnet.net> wrote in
news:LNKdnSeWh_TyfcvbnZ2dnUVZ_hqdnZ2d@comcast.com:

Mitchell Holman wrote:

How much history would have been changed if the US had
allowed the election which would have resolved the matter.

What election would that have been?

The one mentioned in the portion of the post you deleted.

Here it is again so you delete it and ask for it again.




"President Eisenhower's Memoires, Mandate for Change, page 372,
shows that he believed Ho Chi Minh would have won any free
election in Vietnam in 1956. This is certainly why the U.S. did
not permit such an election, though the Geneva Convention of
1954 required it."
http://www.shss.montclair.edu/english/furr/ike1.html

1. The Geneva Accords you refer to had not been signed by either
the US, or South Vietnam.

Actually, they were.

Source?

The one YOU cited, remember?


"The agreement was between Cambodia, the Democratic Republic of
Vietnam, France, Laos, the People's Republic of China, the State of
Vietnam, the Soviet Union, the United Kingdom, and the United
States."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geneva_Conference_(1954)


Care to repeat this "Accords not signed by US or S. Vietnam"
again?

http://www.mtholyoke.edu/acad/intrel/genevacc.htm

Check item 47:
47. All the provisions of the present Agreement, save the second
sub-paragraph of Article 11, shall enter into force at 2400 hours
(Geneva time) on 22 July 1954.
Done in Geneva at 2400 hours on the 20th of July 1954 in French and
in Viet-Namese, both texts being equally authentic.

For the Commander-in-Chief of the French Union Forces in Indo-China

Brigadier-General DELTEII.

For the Commander-in-Chief of the People's Army of Viet-Nam

TA-QUANG BUU, Indo-China
Vice-Minister of National Defence of the Democratic Republic of
Viet-Nam

From your OWN CITE:


"Final declaration, dated July 21, 1954, of the Geneva Conference on
the problem of restoring peace in Indochina, in which the
representatives of Cambodia, the Democratic Republic of Viet-Nam,
France, Laos, the People's Republic of China, the State of Viet-Nam,
the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics, the United Kingdom and the
United States of America took part."


http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/mod/1954-geneva-indochina.html

it is amazing what one can learn when one takes the time to look.
according to the following link, the governments of both north and
south Vietnam were in place *before* the Geneva accords of 1954

Really now? It's amazing how easy to find otherwise when one takes the
time to look. What's amazing that someone can create such historical
revisionism!

The Communists
in 1945, and the South in 1949.

Who exactly were the "South"? Where were the French and who controlled
Indochina?

Ho Chi Minh proclaimed himself the ruler,
and the French set up Bao Dai as a puppet in the south.

The North signed the Geneva Accords, the South did not(this from
another source), and the US opposed the idea of elections from the
start.

The South? The agreement was with the French which brought about
independence from France! The South was created as a result of the
signing of this aggreement.

The
parties involved in the negotiations were: U.S., Britain, China, the
Soviet Union, France, Vietnam (Viet Minh and representatives of Bao
Dai), Cambodia and Laos. Note, there were more people involved in the
negotiations than actually signed the accords.

http://www.historyplace.com/unitedstates/vietnam/index-1945.html

This being the case, how can any reasonable individual conclude that
the government of South Vietnam and the United States had an obligation
to hold internationally supervised elections?

From YOUR very own cite above:

"May 8, 1954 - The Geneva Conference on Indochina begins, attended by
the U.S., Britain, China, the Soviet Union, France, Vietnam (Viet Minh
and representatives of Bao Dai), Cambodia and Laos, all meeting to
negotiate a solution for Southeast Asia."

"July 21, 1954 - The Geneva Accords divide Vietnam in half at the 17th
parallel, with Ho Chi Minh's Communists ceded the North, while Bao Dai's
regime is granted the South. The accords also provide for elections to
be held in all of Vietnam within two years to reunify the country. The
U.S. opposes the unifying elections, fearing a likely victory by Ho Chi
Minh."

Plus:

"1954 Geneva Accords The Geneva Accords ended the war in Vietnam, for
the time being. Under the terms of the Accords, the country was divided
into a Communist North and Non-Communist South. Elections under
international supervision were to be held in both the North and South
two years after the signing of the Accords."

http://www.historycentral.com/dates/1954.html

More:

"The Geneva Accords stated that Vietnam was to become an independent
nation. Elections were to be held in July 1956, under international
supervision, to choose a government for Vietnam. During the two-year
interval until the elections, the country would be split into two parts;
the North and the South. The dividing line chosen, at the seventeenth
parallel a little north of the city of Hue, was quite close to the line
that had separated the two halves of Vietnam in the seventeenth and
eighteenth centuries, but this was purely a coincidence. This line no
longer corresponded to any natural division in Vietnamese society, in
economy, political structure, religion, or dialect. It was an arbitrary
compromise between French proposals for a line further north and Viet
Minh proposals for a line further south. "

"All Viet Minh soldiers were to go to the North; all soldiers who had
fought for the French were to go to the South. Civilians would also be
able to move if they wished to do so. (Hundreds of thousands of North
Vietnamese, mostly Catholics, did move from North to South Vietnam in
1954 and 1955. A smaller number of Viet Minh sympathisers moved from
South to North.) "

"For the Viet Minh the Geneva Accords were a gamble. The Viet Minh
controlled much more than half of Vietnam in 1954; when it allowed the
country to be divided approximately in half, it was giving up a great
deal of territory south of the seventeenth parallel that had been under
Viet Minh control for years, exchanging this for only a small area under
French control north of the seventeenth parallel. On the other hand, if
the elections were actually held as promised in 1956, the Viet Minh
appeared certain to win; it had far more political strength than all
other political groups in Vietnam put together. "

"Under considerable pressure from China and the Soviet Union, both of
which wanted to reduce international tension at this time, the Viet Minh
decided to accept the Geneva Accords, and gamble by giving up territory
in the short run in order to win control of all of Vietnam in 1956. The
division of Vietnam was supposed to be purely temporary. Who was likely
to prevent the two sections from being rejoined in 1956? The French had
given up hope of retaining control in any part of Vietnam. The United
States and the State of Vietnam had made it clear at the Geneva
Conference that they did not like the results of the conference, which
recognized Communist control of North Vietnam immediately, and created a
likelihood that the Communists would take the South in two years. Both
the US and the State of Vietnam conspicuously refused to promise that
they would obey the Geneva Accords. (A great many books say that the US
promised that it would not violate the Accords. This is an error based
on careless misreading of the US declaration at the final session of the
Geneva Conference, July 21, 1954.) However, the State of Vietnam was
virtually powerless, and the influence of the United States was quite
limited. The American leaders themselves were by no means confident that
they would be able to prevent the reunification of Vietnam from
occurring on schedule in 1956. "

http://www.clemson.edu/caah/history/FacultyPages/EdMoise/viet4.html


In addition:

"On April 27, 1954, the Conference produced a declaration which
supported the territorial integrity and sovereignty of Indochina thereby
granting it independence from France. In addition, the Conference
declaration agreed upon the cessation of hostilities and foreign
involvement (or troops) in internal Indochina affairs. Northern and
southern zones were drawn, into which opposing troops were to withdraw,
to facilitate the cessation of hostilities between the Vietnamese forces
and those that had supported the French. The Viet Minh, having advanced
to the far south while fighting the French, retreated from these
positions to north of the ceasfire line, awaiting unification on the
basis of internationally supervised free elections to be held in July
1956 (Article 3) (N. Tarling, The Cambridge History of Southeast Asia,
Volume Two Part Two: From World War II to the present, Cambridge
University Press, p45). French forces almost completely evacuated
Vietnam, although much of the regional governmental infrastructure in
the South was the same as it had been under the French." "An
International Control Commission was set up to oversee the
implementation of the Geneva Accords, but it was basically powerless to
ensure compliance. It was to consist of India, Canada, and Poland."

"The agreement was between Cambodia, the Democratic Republic of Vietnam,
France, Laos, the People's Republic of China, the State of Vietnam, the
Soviet Union, the United Kingdom, and the United States."




http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geneva_Conference_(1954)

By the way, if you are going to persist in your claim that South
Vietnam and the USA signed the Geneva Accords, please provide a source
which indicates this.

The "South" was created as a result of the Geneva Converence of 1954:

"South Vietnam is the commonly used name for the former Vietnamese state
that existed from 1954 to 1976 in the portion of Vietnam that lies south
of the 17th parallel. North Vietnam was situated to the north of the
17th parallel. The division of Vietnam occurred during the Geneva
Conference, after the Viet Minh fought to end almost 100 years of French
rule in Indochina."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/South_Vietnam


So you're in favor of Democracy as long as it elections will turn out
the way you want otherwise you must do everything you can do subvert
Democracy?