To All Christians: Prove your case!

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Topic:	Religions > Atheism
User:	"DanielSan"
Date:	15 Mar 2005 05:56:29 AM
Object:	To All Christians: Prove your case!

There are Christians coming to this _Atheist_ newsgroup spouting
rhetoric and nonsense, that I'm going to give them a chance to explain
themselves.
Duke, Carol T, etc, this post is for you!
Without using the Bible, prove your case for Christianity.
Prove this "God" of your exists without speaking about Jesus or the Bible.
To atheists, the Bible is simply a storybook from a bygone era and we
reject it as being a "truth" book. So, you may not use the Bible in any
of your arguments.
So, this is your chance, Christians! Prove your case!
I, and many atheists here, await your response.
.

User: "Rick"
Title: Re: To All Christians: Prove your case!	15 Mar 2005 08:22:01 AM

DanielSan wrote in message ...

There are Christians coming to this _Atheist_ newsgroup spouting
rhetoric and nonsense, that I'm going to give them a chance to explain
themselves.

Duke, Carol T, etc, this post is for you!

Without using the Bible, prove your case for Christianity.

Prove this "God" of your exists without speaking about Jesus or the Bible.

To atheists, the Bible is simply a storybook from a bygone era and we
reject it as being a "truth" book. So, you may not use the Bible in any
of your arguments.

So, this is your chance, Christians! Prove your case!

I, and many atheists here, await your response.

First things first. Please specify the criteria by which you will be
evaluating proof. Will you use logic, reasoning, and empiricism? If so, then
I will require you to prove the validity of logic, reason, and empiricism.
The catch is that you can't use logic, reason, and empiricism in your proof,
just like we can't use the Bible.
- Rick
.

User: "Gary Bohn"
Title: Re: To All Christians: Prove your case!	15 Mar 2005 09:07:21 PM

"Rick" <Npl1O_SalphaP_AgeekM@juno.com> wrote in
news:39o9e9F63dn89U1@individual.net:

DanielSan wrote in message ...

There are Christians coming to this _Atheist_ newsgroup spouting
rhetoric and nonsense, that I'm going to give them a chance to explain
themselves.

Duke, Carol T, etc, this post is for you!

Without using the Bible, prove your case for Christianity.

Prove this "God" of your exists without speaking about Jesus or the
Bible.

To atheists, the Bible is simply a storybook from a bygone era and we
reject it as being a "truth" book. So, you may not use the Bible in
any of your arguments.

So, this is your chance, Christians! Prove your case!

I, and many atheists here, await your response.

First things first. Please specify the criteria by which you will be
evaluating proof. Will you use logic, reasoning, and empiricism? If
so, then I will require you to prove the validity of logic, reason,
and empiricism. The catch is that you can't use logic, reason, and
empiricism in your proof, just like we can't use the Bible.

- Rick

Are you truly comparing the Bible to logic, reason and empiricism? LOL.
--
apatriot #23, aa #1779, Grand Poobah, EAC Department of Oxygen
Deprivation
Responsible for brain damage everywhere!
Gary Bohn
Science rationally modifies a theory to fit evidence, creationism
emotionally modifies evidence to fit the bible.
.

User: "Fred Stone"
Title: Re: To All Christians: Prove your case!	15 Mar 2005 10:00:34 AM

"Rick" <Npl1O_SalphaP_AgeekM@juno.com> wrote in
news:39o9e9F63dn89U1@individual.net:

DanielSan wrote in message ...

There are Christians coming to this _Atheist_ newsgroup spouting
rhetoric and nonsense, that I'm going to give them a chance to explain
themselves.

Duke, Carol T, etc, this post is for you!

Without using the Bible, prove your case for Christianity.

Prove this "God" of your exists without speaking about Jesus or the
Bible.

To atheists, the Bible is simply a storybook from a bygone era and we
reject it as being a "truth" book. So, you may not use the Bible in
any of your arguments.

So, this is your chance, Christians! Prove your case!

I, and many atheists here, await your response.

First things first. Please specify the criteria by which you will be
evaluating proof. Will you use logic, reasoning, and empiricism? If
so, then I will require you to prove the validity of logic, reason,
and empiricism. The catch is that you can't use logic, reason, and
empiricism in your proof, just like we can't use the Bible.

Your inability to comply without demanding the rejection of logic,
reason and empiricism is sufficient proof of the vacuousness of your
claims. Thanks for playing.
--
Fred Stone
aa# 1369
"You know you're over the target when you start receiving flak."
.

User: "Rick"
Title: Re: To All Christians: Prove your case!	15 Mar 2005 01:49:22 PM

Fred Stone wrote in message
<1110902435.47c4029ab904dcb70d18aa214dc7a0fe@teranews>...

"Rick" <Npl1O_SalphaP_AgeekM@juno.com> wrote in
news:39o9e9F63dn89U1@individual.net:

DanielSan wrote in message ...

There are Christians coming to this _Atheist_ newsgroup spouting
rhetoric and nonsense, that I'm going to give them a chance to explain
themselves.

Duke, Carol T, etc, this post is for you!

Without using the Bible, prove your case for Christianity.

Prove this "God" of your exists without speaking about Jesus or the
Bible.

To atheists, the Bible is simply a storybook from a bygone era and we
reject it as being a "truth" book. So, you may not use the Bible in
any of your arguments.

So, this is your chance, Christians! Prove your case!

I, and many atheists here, await your response.

First things first. Please specify the criteria by which you will be
evaluating proof. Will you use logic, reasoning, and empiricism? If
so, then I will require you to prove the validity of logic, reason,
and empiricism. The catch is that you can't use logic, reason, and
empiricism in your proof, just like we can't use the Bible.

Your inability to comply without demanding the rejection of logic,
reason and empiricism

This is just a plain lie. I demanded proof of their validity, not their
rejection. I didn't want you to just fall into circular reasoning, which is
precisely what you're all doing.

is sufficient proof of the vacuousness of your
claims. Thanks for playing.

- Rick
.

User: "Fred Stone"
Title: Re: To All Christians: Prove your case!	15 Mar 2005 03:20:50 PM

"Rick" <Npl1O_SalphaP_AgeekM@juno.com> wrote in
news:39osk2F654j8fU1@individual.net:

Fred Stone wrote in message
<1110902435.47c4029ab904dcb70d18aa214dc7a0fe@teranews>...

"Rick" <Npl1O_SalphaP_AgeekM@juno.com> wrote in
news:39o9e9F63dn89U1@individual.net:

DanielSan wrote in message ...

There are Christians coming to this _Atheist_ newsgroup spouting
rhetoric and nonsense, that I'm going to give them a chance to
explain themselves.

Duke, Carol T, etc, this post is for you!

Without using the Bible, prove your case for Christianity.

Prove this "God" of your exists without speaking about Jesus or the
Bible.

To atheists, the Bible is simply a storybook from a bygone era and
we reject it as being a "truth" book. So, you may not use the Bible
in any of your arguments.

So, this is your chance, Christians! Prove your case!

I, and many atheists here, await your response.

First things first. Please specify the criteria by which you will be
evaluating proof. Will you use logic, reasoning, and empiricism? If
so, then I will require you to prove the validity of logic, reason,
and empiricism. The catch is that you can't use logic, reason, and
empiricism in your proof, just like we can't use the Bible.

Your inability to comply without demanding the rejection of logic,
reason and empiricism

This is just a plain lie. I demanded proof of their validity, not
their rejection.

Yes you did.

I didn't want you to just fall into circular
reasoning, which is precisely what you're all doing.

No we're not. Logic and reason are only as valid as the premises upon
which they are based.
--
Fred Stone
aa# 1369
"You know you're over the target when you start receiving flak."
.

User: "Rick"
Title: Re: To All Christians: Prove your case!	15 Mar 2005 03:35:41 PM

Fred Stone wrote in message
<1110921651.e962f99d583bd9e1b3b9b2cd691a082e@teranews>...

"Rick" <Npl1O_SalphaP_AgeekM@juno.com> wrote in
news:39osk2F654j8fU1@individual.net:

Fred Stone wrote in message
<1110902435.47c4029ab904dcb70d18aa214dc7a0fe@teranews>...

"Rick" <Npl1O_SalphaP_AgeekM@juno.com> wrote in
news:39o9e9F63dn89U1@individual.net:

DanielSan wrote in message ...

There are Christians coming to this _Atheist_ newsgroup spouting
rhetoric and nonsense, that I'm going to give them a chance to
explain themselves.

Duke, Carol T, etc, this post is for you!

Without using the Bible, prove your case for Christianity.

Prove this "God" of your exists without speaking about Jesus or the
Bible.

To atheists, the Bible is simply a storybook from a bygone era and
we reject it as being a "truth" book. So, you may not use the Bible
in any of your arguments.

So, this is your chance, Christians! Prove your case!

I, and many atheists here, await your response.

First things first. Please specify the criteria by which you will be
evaluating proof. Will you use logic, reasoning, and empiricism? If
so, then I will require you to prove the validity of logic, reason,
and empiricism. The catch is that you can't use logic, reason, and
empiricism in your proof, just like we can't use the Bible.

Your inability to comply without demanding the rejection of logic,
reason and empiricism

This is just a plain lie. I demanded proof of their validity, not
their rejection.

Yes you did.

I most certainly did not. I don't know how you can keep making this false
claim. Can you show me where I did this?

I didn't want you to just fall into circular
reasoning, which is precisely what you're all doing.

No we're not. Logic and reason are only as valid as the premises upon
which they are based.

Logic and reason sure seem to be your premises for the validity of logic and
reason. That looks like a tail pushing a dog 'round in circles.
- Rick
.

User: "Fred Stone"
Title: Re: To All Christians: Prove your case!	15 Mar 2005 04:32:54 PM

"Rick" <Npl1O_SalphaP_AgeekM@juno.com> wrote in
news:39p2rdF643pjjU1@individual.net:

Fred Stone wrote in message
<1110921651.e962f99d583bd9e1b3b9b2cd691a082e@teranews>...

"Rick" <Npl1O_SalphaP_AgeekM@juno.com> wrote in
news:39osk2F654j8fU1@individual.net:

Fred Stone wrote in message
<1110902435.47c4029ab904dcb70d18aa214dc7a0fe@teranews>...

"Rick" <Npl1O_SalphaP_AgeekM@juno.com> wrote in
news:39o9e9F63dn89U1@individual.net:

DanielSan wrote in message ...

There are Christians coming to this _Atheist_ newsgroup spouting
rhetoric and nonsense, that I'm going to give them a chance to
explain themselves.

Duke, Carol T, etc, this post is for you!

Without using the Bible, prove your case for Christianity.

Prove this "God" of your exists without speaking about Jesus or
the Bible.

To atheists, the Bible is simply a storybook from a bygone era and
we reject it as being a "truth" book. So, you may not use the
Bible in any of your arguments.

So, this is your chance, Christians! Prove your case!

I, and many atheists here, await your response.

First things first. Please specify the criteria by which you will
be evaluating proof. Will you use logic, reasoning, and
empiricism? If so, then I will require you to prove the validity
of logic, reason, and empiricism. The catch is that you can't use
logic, reason, and empiricism in your proof, just like we can't
use the Bible.

Your inability to comply without demanding the rejection of logic,
reason and empiricism

This is just a plain lie. I demanded proof of their validity, not
their rejection.

Yes you did.

I most certainly did not. I don't know how you can keep making this
false claim. Can you show me where I did this?

From your own words: "...you can't use logic, reason, and
empiricism in your proof."
You ask that we use logic, reason and empiricism to prove themselves
(since you ask for proof of their validity) then deny us the very tool
that you asked us to use. This is not comparable to us asking you to
prove that your so-called God exists without referring to the Bible.
Logic is not a single premise, therefore using it to prove itself is
*not* circular.

I didn't want you to just fall into circular
reasoning, which is precisely what you're all doing.

No we're not. Logic and reason are only as valid as the premises upon
which they are based.

Logic and reason sure seem to be your premises for the validity of
logic and reason. That looks like a tail pushing a dog 'round in
circles.

Logic and reason are not premises. I realize that you don't understand
that, but the blame lies in your faulty education, not our logic and
reason.
--
Fred Stone
aa# 1369
"You know you're over the target when you start receiving flak."
.

User: "MarkA"
Title: Re: To All Christians: Prove your case!	15 Mar 2005 04:48:41 PM

On Tue, 15 Mar 2005 15:35:41 -0600, Rick wrote:

No we're not. Logic and reason are only as valid as the premises upon
which they are based.

Logic and reason sure seem to be your premises for the validity of logic
and reason. That looks like a tail pushing a dog 'round in circles.

- Rick

You will not accept the validity of logic, reason, and empiricism unless
they are proven, but such proof would require the use of logic itself.
Therefore, to your way of thinking, there is no basis for rational
thought. Go back to living in a cave and poking saber toothed tigers with
pointed sticks.
Clearly, there is no proof of the existence of God. If such proof were to
exist, it would be of such a nature that you could not mistake it. People
believe in God because they want to, and use a variety of rationalizations
in lieu of proof. If it helps you sleep at night, that's fine with me.
Just don't be surprised if I don't share your beliefs. Don't be offended
if honorable people of good will expect you to be tolerant of other belief
systems.
--
MarkA
(still caught in the maze of twisty little passages, all different)
.

User: "Rick"
Title: Re: To All Christians: Prove your case!	16 Mar 2005 07:18:15 AM

MarkA wrote in message ...

On Tue, 15 Mar 2005 15:35:41 -0600, Rick wrote:

No we're not. Logic and reason are only as valid as the premises upon
which they are based.

Logic and reason sure seem to be your premises for the validity of logic
and reason. That looks like a tail pushing a dog 'round in circles.

- Rick

You will not accept the validity of logic, reason, and empiricism unless
they are proven, but such proof would require the use of logic itself.

Good. We're getting somewhere. Your admitting that you have faith in a
circular tautology.

Therefore, to your way of thinking, there is no basis for rational
thought.

Except by faith. Which you won't admit you have. I do.
- Rick
.

User: "Fred Stone"
Title: Re: To All Christians: Prove your case!	16 Mar 2005 10:00:21 AM

"Rick" <Npl1O_SalphaP_AgeekM@juno.com> wrote in
news:39qq2cF658a3iU1@individual.net:

MarkA wrote in message ...

On Tue, 15 Mar 2005 15:35:41 -0600, Rick wrote:

No we're not. Logic and reason are only as valid as the premises
upon which they are based.

Logic and reason sure seem to be your premises for the validity of
logic and reason. That looks like a tail pushing a dog 'round in
circles.

- Rick

You will not accept the validity of logic, reason, and empiricism
unless they are proven, but such proof would require the use of logic
itself.

Good. We're getting somewhere. Your admitting that you have faith in a
circular tautology.

It's not a circular tautology.

Therefore, to your way of thinking, there is no basis for rational
thought.

Except by faith. Which you won't admit you have. I do.

We don't admit it because that would be admitting an untruth.
--
Fred Stone
aa# 1369
"You know you're over the target when you start receiving flak."
.

User: "MarkA"
Title: Re: To All Christians: Prove your case!	17 Mar 2005 06:58:07 AM

On Wed, 16 Mar 2005 07:18:15 -0600, Rick wrote:

MarkA wrote in message ...

On Tue, 15 Mar 2005 15:35:41 -0600, Rick wrote:

No we're not. Logic and reason are only as valid as the premises upon
which they are based.

Logic and reason sure seem to be your premises for the validity of
logic and reason. That looks like a tail pushing a dog 'round in
circles.

- Rick

You will not accept the validity of logic, reason, and empiricism unless
they are proven, but such proof would require the use of logic itself.

Good. We're getting somewhere. Your admitting that you have faith in a
circular tautology.

Therefore, to your way of thinking, there is no basis for rational
thought.

Except by faith. Which you won't admit you have. I do.

- Rick

Excuse me, but you missed the part about going back to live in a cave. If
you cannot perceive the difference between belief by logic versus belief
by faith, you don't have much to talk about.
Bye.
--
MarkA
(still caught in the maze of twisty little passages, all different)
.

User: "wcb"
Title: Re: To All Christians: Prove your case!	15 Mar 2005 07:13:10 PM

MarkA wrote:

On Tue, 15 Mar 2005 15:35:41 -0600, Rick wrote:

No we're not. Logic and reason are only as valid as the premises upon
which they are based.

Logic and reason sure seem to be your premises for the validity of logic
and reason. That looks like a tail pushing a dog 'round in circles.

- Rick

You will not accept the validity of logic, reason, and empiricism unless
they are proven, but such proof would require the use of logic itself.
Therefore, to your way of thinking, there is no basis for rational
thought. Go back to living in a cave and poking saber toothed tigers with
pointed sticks.

Clearly, there is no proof of the existence of God. If such proof were to
exist, it would be of such a nature that you could not mistake it. People
believe in God because they want to, and use a variety of rationalizations
in lieu of proof. If it helps you sleep at night, that's fine with me.
Just don't be surprised if I don't share your beliefs. Don't be offended
if honorable people of good will expect you to be tolerant of other belief
systems.

In the days of ancient Greece, there were a few fools like Rick.
There were philosophers who denied that we could know anything
for sure, these were called sceptics. One of the most famous
was a man named Carneades. One old joke was that Carneades
was so sure that his senses and logic were untrustworthy and
faulty, he had to have a slave lead him around by the hand to
prevent him from wandering into ditches and such things.
Bluntly, with a smidgeon of logic, you don't last long in the
real world, by which logic proves itself.
There are ditches out there to fall in if you ignore logic
and rational thinking. y which we prove that logic and thinking are
valuable assets.
And if Rick thinks that this silly game proves anything
all it proves is that some people play silly games.
Like the morons who bellow "prove you exist!".
I've seen that one here at lest 25 - 30 times over the years.
Always good for laughs. and of course we have the solipsists
who visit us. Always good for laughs.
Net kookery wins no arguments.
All Rick has become is a caricature of Carneades.
The fact is, logic and rationality does indeed work,
and without it we would soon die or starve to death.
The ancient Greeks soon realized that and radical sceptics
became rare.
Logic is all you have. Reason and facts are all
you have to work with.
Give that up and you give up god and religion too.
After all, how can you prove that the bible is meaningful
if you abandon reason and logic. With that, Rick
falls into the ditch and is heard from no more.
Without establishing reason and logic are worthwhile
he subverts his own claims all around.

--
Cheerful Charlie
.

User: "Del"
Title: Re: To All Christians: Prove your case!	19 Mar 2005 04:31:17 PM

Rick wrote:

Fred Stone wrote in message
<1110902435.47c4029ab904dcb70d18aa214dc7a0fe@teranews>...

"Rick" <Npl1O_SalphaP_AgeekM@juno.com> wrote in
news:39o9e9F63dn89U1@individual.net:

DanielSan wrote in message ...

There are Christ ians coming to this _Atheist_ newsgroup spouting
rhetoric and nonsense, that I'm going to give them a chance to

explain

themselves.

Duke, Carol T, etc, this post is for you!

Without using the Bible, prove your case for Chri stianity.

Prove this "God" of your exists without speaking about Jesus or

the

Bible.

To atheists, the Bible is simply a storybook from a bygone era and

reject it as being a "truth" book. So, you may not use the Bible

any of your arguments.

So, this is your chance, Christians! Prove your case!

I, and many atheists here, await your response.

First things first. Please specify the criteria by which you will

evaluating proof. Will you use logic, reasoning, and empiricism?

so, then I will require you to prove the validity of logic,

reason,

and empiricism. The catch is that you can't use logic, reason, and
empiricism in your proof, just like we can't use the Bible.

Your inability to comply without demanding the rejection of logic,
reason and empiricism

This is just a plain lie. I demanded proof of their validity,

Start your own thread then.

not their
rejection. I didn't want you to just fall into circular reasoning,
which is
precisely what you're all doing.

The charge of "circular reasoning," whether true or not,
demonstrates that you accept logic and reason and thus is
itself an amusingly ironic example of circular reasoning. So
why do you accept the validity of something you question
the validity of?
.

User: "Rick"
Title: Re: To All Christians: Prove your case!	19 Mar 2005 07:31:39 PM

Del wrote in message
<1111271477.611318.231230@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>...

Rick wrote:

Fred Stone wrote in message
<1110902435.47c4029ab904dcb70d18aa214dc7a0fe@teranews>...

"Rick" <Npl1O_SalphaP_AgeekM@juno.com> wrote in
news:39o9e9F63dn89U1@individual.net:

DanielSan wrote in message ...

There are Christ ians coming to this _Atheist_ newsgroup spouting
rhetoric and nonsense, that I'm going to give them a chance to

explain

themselves.

Duke, Carol T, etc, this post is for you!

Without using the Bible, prove your case for Chri stianity.

Prove this "God" of your exists without speaking about Jesus or

the

Bible.

To atheists, the Bible is simply a storybook from a bygone era and

reject it as being a "truth" book. So, you may not use the Bible

any of your arguments.

So, this is your chance, Christians! Prove your case!

I, and many atheists here, await your response.

First things first. Please specify the criteria by which you will

evaluating proof. Will you use logic, reasoning, and empiricism?

so, then I will require you to prove the validity of logic,

reason,

and empiricism. The catch is that you can't use logic, reason, and
empiricism in your proof, just like we can't use the Bible.

Your inability to comply without demanding the rejection of logic,
reason and empiricism

This is just a plain lie. I demanded proof of their validity,

Start your own thread then.

not their
rejection. I didn't want you to just fall into circular reasoning,
which is
precisely what you're all doing.

I'm just asking for proof to demonstrate that you can't prove it, but just
accept it. Everyone starts with certain premises in which they have faith.
Theists jsut happen to admit this. Apparently there are many atheists who
are so arrogant, they cannot permit questioning of their own premises. You
seem to be one of those.
- Rick
.

User: "Del"
Title: Re: To All Christians: Prove your case!	21 Mar 2005 06:34:06 AM

Rick wrote:

Del wrote in message
<1111271477.611318.231230@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>...

Rick wrote:

Fred Stone wrote in message
<1110902435.47c4029ab904dcb70d18aa214dc7a0fe@teranews>...

[...]

Your inabili ty to comply without demanding the rejection of

logic,

reason and empiricism

Rick:

This is just a plain lie. I demanded proof of their validity,

Del:

Start your own thread then.

Rick:

not their
rejection. I didn't want you to ju st fall into circular

reasoning,

which is precisely what you're all doing.

Del:

Rick:

I'm just asking for proof to demonstrate that you can't prove it, but

just

accept it.

Once again Rick is completely unresponsive to my point
and my question, both of which are fatally inconvenient to
his position. He evades it by restating his position (red
herring, above and below) and attacking me personally (ad
hominem, below). I've already refuted his "you can't
prove it" claim in an eariler post, which, to be fair, I assume
Rick has not read at the time he posted the article I am
responding to here.
But the point that Rick evades here is that HE accepts logic
as valid. He cannot deny this so he just pretends that this
800 pound gorilla isn't really taping him on the shoulder.
I submit that the question that he refuses to answer: "why
does Rick accept the validity of something he questions the
validity of?" puts the stake through the heart of of his
specious position. He is just not honest enough to admit it.

Everyone starts with certain premises in which they have faith.

False. A misuse of the word "faith" in this context.

Theists jsut happen to admit this.

On the contrary. The "Christian" invaders of a.a. treat their
evidence-free dogma as if it were absolutely true. Examples
from Cockadoodle Duke:
"I realize there are few that will give me the credit I am due for the
real
accuracy I present."
"Oh, my words are supported by scripture, writers, historical data,
etc."

From Robin Griffin

"I don't expect atheists to even want to consider the accuracy of my
words.
Yes, I am openly an enemy of atheism. The Bible teaches us to hate
what is evil."
Not even you would have the gall to dispute the unmerited certainty
that the "Christian" invaders spew in alt.atheism. That is precisely
the
issue this thread is addressing. Or should be.
Rick:

Apparently there are many atheists who
are so arrogant, they cannot permit questioning of their own

premises.
Why would you suggest atheists do what you yourself fail to do? You
clearly do not question your own use of logic. You only question
atheists' use of it and then only when they apply it to _your_ beliefs.
In other words you apply logic to atheist claims but deny that it
should be applied to yours.
Rick:

You seem to be one of those.

I guess ad hominem must look pretty inviting when
your position collapses and your ego won't allow you
to admit defeat. The amusing thing about the ad
hominem fallacy is that it is ALWAYS irrelevant to the
claims of the one who is targeted. As we can see here,
this ad hominem of yours has no impact on my pointing
out your hypocritical use of logic.
.

User: "Rick"
Title: Re: To All Christians: Prove your case!	26 Mar 2005 08:39:00 AM

Del wrote in message
<1111408446.626011.3190@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com>...

Rick wrote:

Del wrote in message
<1111271477.611318.231230@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>...

Rick wrote:

Fred Stone wrote in message
<1110902435.47c4029ab904dcb70d18aa214dc7a0fe@teranews>...

[...]

Your inabili ty to comply without demanding the rejection of

logic,

reason and empiricism

Rick:

This is just a plain lie. I demanded proof of their validity,

Del:

Start your own thread then.

Rick:

not their
rejection. I didn't want you to ju st fall into circular

reasoning,

which is precisely what you're all doing.

Del:

Rick:

I'm just asking for proof to demonstrate that you can't prove it, but

just

accept it.

Once again Rick is completely unresponsive to my point
and my question, both of which are fatally inconvenient to
his position. He evades it by restating his position (red
herring, above and below) and attacking me personally (ad
hominem, below). I've already refuted his "you can't
prove it" claim in an eariler post, which, to be fair, I assume
Rick has not read at the time he posted the article I am
responding to here.

But the point that Rick evades here is that HE accepts logic
as valid. He cannot deny this so he just pretends that this
800 pound gorilla isn't really taping him on the shoulder.
I submit that the question that he refuses to answer: "why
does Rick accept the validity of something he questions the
validity of?"

My questioning has been more specific than you represent. It's becoming more
and more difficult to not belive you're just plain lying...or at least
self-decieved.

puts the stake through the heart of of his
specious position. He is just not honest enough to admit it.

You keep misrepresenting my position. That's just plain dishonest. I accept
logic, but with limits. I question the scope of what logic can do. You avoid
that.

Everyone starts with certain premises in which they have faith.

False. A misuse of the word "faith" in this context.

Theists jsut happen to admit this.

On the contrary. The "Christian" invaders of a.a. treat their
evidence-free dogma as if it were absolutely true. Examples
from Cockadoodle Duke:

"I realize there are few that will give me the credit I am due for the
real
accuracy I present."

"Oh, my words are supported by scripture, writers, historical data,
etc."

From Robin Griffin

"I don't expect atheists to even want to consider the accuracy of my
words.
Yes, I am openly an enemy of atheism. The Bible teaches us to hate
what is evil."

Not even you would have the gall to dispute the unmerited certainty
that the "Christian" invaders spew in alt.atheism. That is precisely
the
issue this thread is addressing. Or should be.

Rick:

Apparently there are many atheists who
are so arrogant, they cannot permit questioning of their own

premises.

Why would you suggest atheists do what you yourself fail to do? You
clearly do not question your own use of logic.

That's completely beside the point, which you've missed all along.

You only question
atheists' use of it

*SOME ASPECTS* of the use of logic is what I've questioned all along.

and then only when they apply it to _your_ beliefs.

In other words you apply logic to atheist claims but deny that it
should be applied to yours.

That's just a plain lie. And don't some back with some nonsense about how I
did it first.

Rick:

You seem to be one of those.

You appear to be utterly incapable of your own use of ad hominem, which has
been the foundation of most of your arguments. You just keep comong back and
misrepresenting what I've said...over and over again and again.
- Rick
.

User: "Don Kresch"
Title: Re: To All Christians: Prove your case!	15 Mar 2005 06:37:36 PM

In alt.atheism on Tue, 15 Mar 2005 08:22:01 -0600, "Rick"
<Npl1O_SalphaP_AgeekM@juno.com> let us all know that:

DanielSan wrote in message ...

There are Christians coming to this _Atheist_ newsgroup spouting
rhetoric and nonsense, that I'm going to give them a chance to explain
themselves.

Duke, Carol T, etc, this post is for you!

Without using the Bible, prove your case for Christianity.

Prove this "God" of your exists without speaking about Jesus or the Bible.

To atheists, the Bible is simply a storybook from a bygone era and we
reject it as being a "truth" book. So, you may not use the Bible in any
of your arguments.

So, this is your chance, Christians! Prove your case!

I, and many atheists here, await your response.

You prove it by asking for proof. Proof presupposes the validity
of logic, reason, and in the case of the external world, empricism.
Don't try to steal the concept.
Don
---
aa #51, Knight of BAAWA, DNRC o-, Member of the [H]orde
Atheist Minister for St. Dogbert.
"No being is so important that he can usurp the rights of another"
Picard to Data/Graves "The Schizoid Man"
.

User: "Brian E. Clark"
Title: Re: To All Christians: Prove your case!	15 Mar 2005 01:01:26 PM

In article <39o9e9F63dn89U1@individual.net>, Rick said...

Jesus, are you stupid a bloke.
Be honest, Rick: you're not *really* fool enough to believe your
comparison makes any sense, right?
--
-----------
Brian E. Clark
.

User: "Rick"
Title: Re: To All Christians: Prove your case!	15 Mar 2005 01:57:00 PM

Brian E. Clark wrote in message ...

In article <39o9e9F63dn89U1@individual.net>, Rick said...

First things first. Please specify the criteria by which you will be
evaluating proof. Will you use logic, reasoning, and empiricism? If so,

then

I will require you to prove the validity of logic, reason, and

empiricism.

The catch is that you can't use logic, reason, and empiricism in your

proof,

just like we can't use the Bible.

Jesus, are you stupid a bloke.

Is it stupid to ask you to hold to the same standards you require of a
theist?

Be honest, Rick: you're not *really* fool enough to believe your
comparison makes any sense, right?

Thank you for begging the question. You're dodging the issue. You seem to
have drunk the Atheist Fundamentalist True Believer Flavor-Aid. [1]
[1] Little Known Fact: Jim Jones served up Flavor-Aid, not Kool-Aid.
- Rick
.

User: "Christopher A. Lee"
Title: Re: To All Christians: Prove your case!	15 Mar 2005 02:22:29 PM

On Tue, 15 Mar 2005 13:57:00 -0600, "Rick"
<Npl1O_SalphaP_AgeekM@juno.com> wrote:

Brian E. Clark wrote in message ...

In article <39o9e9F63dn89U1@individual.net>, Rick said...

First things first. Please specify the criteria by which you will be
evaluating proof. Will you use logic, reasoning, and empiricism? If so,

then

I will require you to prove the validity of logic, reason, and

empiricism.

The catch is that you can't use logic, reason, and empiricism in your

proof,

just like we can't use the Bible.

Jesus, are you stupid a bloke.

Is it stupid to ask you to hold to the same standards you require of a
theist?

Be honest, Rick: you're not *really* fool enough to believe your
comparison makes any sense, right?

Thank you for begging the question. You're dodging the issue. You seem to
have drunk the Atheist Fundamentalist True Believer Flavor-Aid. [1]

More deliberate nastiness from a lying theist.

[1] Little Known Fact: Jim Jones served up Flavor-Aid, not Kool-Aid.

- Rick

User: "Rick"
Title: Re: To All Christians: Prove your case!	15 Mar 2005 02:58:24 PM

Christopher A. Lee wrote in message ...

On Tue, 15 Mar 2005 13:57:00 -0600, "Rick"
<Npl1O_SalphaP_AgeekM@juno.com> wrote:

Brian E. Clark wrote in message ...

In article <39o9e9F63dn89U1@individual.net>, Rick said...

First things first. Please specify the criteria by which you will be
evaluating proof. Will you use logic, reasoning, and empiricism? If so,

then

I will require you to prove the validity of logic, reason, and

empiricism.

The catch is that you can't use logic, reason, and empiricism in your

proof,

just like we can't use the Bible.

Jesus, are you stupid a bloke.

Is it stupid to ask you to hold to the same standards you require of a
theist?

Be honest, Rick: you're not *really* fool enough to believe your
comparison makes any sense, right?

Thank you for begging the question. You're dodging the issue. You seem to
have drunk the Atheist Fundamentalist True Believer Flavor-Aid. [1]

More deliberate nastiness from a lying theist.

It was deliberate snark. And exactly where was I lying?

[1] Little Known Fact: Jim Jones served up Flavor-Aid, not Kool-Aid.

- Rick
.

User: "Del"
Title: Re: To All Christians: Prove your case!	19 Mar 2005 04:44:24 PM

Rick wrote:

Brian E. Clark wrote in message ...

In article <39o9e9F63dn89U1@individual.net>, Rick said...

First things first. Please specify the criteria by which you will

evaluating proof. Will you use logic, reasoning, and empiricism?

If so,

then

I will require you to prove the validity of logic, reason, and

empiricism.

The catch is that you can't use logic, reason, and empiricism in

your

proof,

just like we can't use the Bible.

Jesus, are you stupid a bloke.

Is it stupid to ask you to hold to the same standards you require of

theist?

Be honest, Rick: you're not *really* fool enough to believe your
comparison makes any sense, right?

Thank you for begging the question.

What?? Begging the question is a logical fallacy! When have you
ever shown that logic is valid?

You're dodging the issue.

LOL! Talk about ironic. Read the subject header, dufus,
and then tell us who is dodging the issue.
You seem to

have drunk the Atheist Fundamentalist True Believer Flavor-Aid. [1]

And how did you arrive at this conclusion?

[1] Little Known Fact: Jim Jones served up Flavor-Aid, not Kool-Aid.

"'Tis a tale told by an idiot. Full of sound and fury, signifying
nothing."
.

User: "Rick"
Title: Re: To All Christians: Prove your case!	19 Mar 2005 07:28:44 PM

Del wrote in message
<1111272264.612388.44500@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com>...

Rick wrote:

Brian E. Clark wrote in message ...

In article <39o9e9F63dn89U1@individual.net>, Rick said...

First things first. Please specify the criteria by which you will

evaluating proof. Will you use logic, reasoning, and empiricism?

If so,

then

I will require you to prove the validity of logic, reason, and

empiricism.

The catch is that you can't use logic, reason, and empiricism in

your

proof,

just like we can't use the Bible.

Jesus, are you stupid a bloke.

Is it stupid to ask you to hold to the same standards you require of

theist?

Be honest, Rick: you're not *really* fool enough to believe your
comparison makes any sense, right?

Thank you for begging the question.

What?? Begging the question is a logical fallacy! When have you
ever shown that logic is valid?

You're dodging the issue.

LOL! Talk about ironic. Read the subject header, dufus,
and then tell us who is dodging the issue.

When did you stop beating your wife?

You seem to

have drunk the Atheist Fundamentalist True Believer Flavor-Aid. [1]

And how did you arrive at this conclusion?

[1] Little Known Fact: Jim Jones served up Flavor-Aid, not Kool-Aid.

"'Tis a tale told by an idiot. Full of sound and fury, signifying
nothing."

- Rick
.

User: "Del"
Title: Re: To All Christians: Prove your case!	21 Mar 2005 05:23:11 AM

Rick wrote:

Del wrote in message
<1111272264.612388.44500@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com>...

Rick wrote:

Brian E. Clark wrote in message ...

In article <39o9e9F63dn89U1@individual.net>, Rick said...

[...]

Be honest, Rick: you're not *really* fool enough to believe your
comparison makes any sense, right?

Rick:

Thank you for begging the question.

Del:

What?? Begging the question is a logical fallacy! When have you
ever shown that logic is valid?

Hahahahahahahahaha! NO response, Rick? You can't even
admit that you rely on an "unproveable [sic] system," one
you wish to impose on us, even as you claim that your beliefs
are exempt?
The irony of your statement "You're dodging the issue"
(below) is snowballing to super-size dimensions.

You're dodging the issue.

LOL! Talk about ironic. Read the subject header, dufus,
and then tell us who is dodging the issue.

When did you stop beating your wife?

Let's see, what shall we call this? How about "evasion
by vague insinuation"? Really Rick, you are making
this too easy. I would much prefer to shoot down your
arguments than to simply point out your chronic evasion
of _my_ arguments. But maybe I expect too much from
you. You are obviously in over your head here. You could
re-capture some self respect by simply admitting you
were wrong and moving on.

You seem to

have drunk the Atheist Funda mentalist True Believer Flavor-Aid.

[1]

And how did you arrive at this conclusion?

Wow. That you can't even address an open-ended question
like this speaks volumes.
m
.

User: "Dave Holloway"
Title: Re: To All Christians: Prove your case!	15 Mar 2005 06:39:27 PM

On Tue, 15 Mar 2005 08:22:01 -0600, "Rick"
<Npl1O_SalphaP_AgeekM@juno.com> wrote:

DanielSan wrote in message ...

There are Christians coming to this _Atheist_ newsgroup spouting
rhetoric and nonsense, that I'm going to give them a chance to explain
themselves.

Duke, Carol T, etc, this post is for you!

Without using the Bible, prove your case for Christianity.

Prove this "God" of your exists without speaking about Jesus or the Bible.

To atheists, the Bible is simply a storybook from a bygone era and we
reject it as being a "truth" book. So, you may not use the Bible in any
of your arguments.

So, this is your chance, Christians! Prove your case!

I, and many atheists here, await your response.

Unnecessary. By challenging DanielSan to prove the validity of logic,
you have conceded the validity of logic. It is necessary to concede
the validity of logic every time you communicate. It is not similarly
necessary to concede God, or the Bible.
Dave
--
From the warped mind of Dave Holloway, a.a.#1184
Quotemeister Emeritus
Director, EAC Mars Division
Atheological Thinking: http://myweb.cableone.net/silentdave
The TGE Project: http://myweb.cableone.net/silentdave/tge.htm
"Gods are fragile things; they may be killed by a whiff of science or a dose of common sense."
--Chapman Cohen
.

User: "Rick"
Title: Re: To All Christians: Prove your case!	16 Mar 2005 07:21:13 AM

Dave Holloway wrote in message ...

On Tue, 15 Mar 2005 08:22:01 -0600, "Rick"
<Npl1O_SalphaP_AgeekM@juno.com> wrote:

DanielSan wrote in message ...

Bible.

To atheists, the Bible is simply a storybook from a bygone era and we
reject it as being a "truth" book. So, you may not use the Bible in any
of your arguments.

So, this is your chance, Christians! Prove your case!

I, and many atheists here, await your response.

First things first. Please specify the criteria by which you will be
evaluating proof. Will you use logic, reasoning, and empiricism? If so,

then

I will require you to prove the validity of logic, reason, and empiricism.
The catch is that you can't use logic, reason, and empiricism in your

proof,

just like we can't use the Bible.

Unnecessary. By challenging DanielSan to prove the validity of logic,
you have conceded the validity of logic.

But I've asked him not to use logic.

It is necessary to concede
the validity of logic every time you communicate.

One always starts with faith in something.

It is not similarly necessary to concede God, or the Bible.

- Rick
.

User: "Don Kresch"
Title: Re: To All Christians: Prove your case!	16 Mar 2005 05:56:44 PM

In alt.atheism on Wed, 16 Mar 2005 07:21:13 -0600, "Rick"
<Npl1O_SalphaP_AgeekM@juno.com> let us all know that:

Dave Holloway wrote in message ...

On Tue, 15 Mar 2005 08:22:01 -0600, "Rick"
<Npl1O_SalphaP_AgeekM@juno.com> wrote:

DanielSan wrote in message ...

Bible.

First things first. Please specify the criteria by which you will be
evaluating proof. Will you use logic, reasoning, and empiricism? If so,

then

I will require you to prove the validity of logic, reason, and empiricism.
The catch is that you can't use logic, reason, and empiricism in your

proof,

just like we can't use the Bible.

Unnecessary. By challenging DanielSan to prove the validity of logic,
you have conceded the validity of logic.

But I've asked him not to use logic.

Then you've asked him to use faith.

It is necessary to concede
the validity of logic every time you communicate.

One always starts with faith in something.

WRONG.
Don
---
aa #51, Knight of BAAWA, DNRC o-, Member of the [H]orde
Atheist Minister for St. Dogbert.
"No being is so important that he can usurp the rights of another"
Picard to Data/Graves "The Schizoid Man"
.

User: "Dave Holloway"
Title: Re: To All Christians: Prove your case!	17 Mar 2005 11:37:11 AM

On Wed, 16 Mar 2005 07:21:13 -0600, "Rick"
<Npl1O_SalphaP_AgeekM@juno.com> wrote:

Dave Holloway wrote in message ...

On Tue, 15 Mar 2005 08:22:01 -0600, "Rick"
<Npl1O_SalphaP_AgeekM@juno.com> wrote:

DanielSan wrote in message ...

Bible.

First things first. Please specify the criteria by which you will be
evaluating proof. Will you use logic, reasoning, and empiricism? If so,

then

I will require you to prove the validity of logic, reason, and empiricism.
The catch is that you can't use logic, reason, and empiricism in your

proof,

just like we can't use the Bible.

Unnecessary. By challenging DanielSan to prove the validity of logic,
you have conceded the validity of logic.

But I've asked him not to use logic.

He doesn't have to use logic, faith, intuition, the golden fleece, or
anything else. You have conceded the point.

It is necessary to concede
the validity of logic every time you communicate.

One always starts with faith in something.

We do not use logic because we have faith in it; we use it because we
simply have no other choice.
In any case, your attempt to equivocate logic and the bible is flawed.
To say "A equals not-A" is incoherent and self-refuting; to say "A
equals A and the Christian God does not exist" is not.
Dave
--
From the warped mind of Dave Holloway, a.a.#1184
Quotemeister Emeritus
Director, EAC Mars Division
Atheological Thinking: http://myweb.cableone.net/silentdave
The TGE Project: http://myweb.cableone.net/silentdave/tge.htm
"Gods are fragile things; they may be killed by a whiff of science or a dose of common sense."
--Chapman Cohen
.

User: "Iain"
Title: Re: To All Christians: Prove your case!	17 Mar 2005 11:53:26 AM

Dave Holloway wrote:

On Wed, 16 Mar 2005 07:21:13 -0600, "Rick"
<Npl1O_SalphaP_AgeekM@juno.com> wrote:

Dave Holloway wrote in message ...

On Tue, 15 Mar 2005 08:22:01 -0600, "Rick"
<Npl1O_SalphaP_AgeekM@juno.com> wrote:

DanielSan wrote in message ...

There are Christians coming to this _Atheist_ newsgroup spouting
rhetoric and nonsense, that I'm going to give them a chance to

explain

themselves.

Duke, Carol T, etc, this post is for you!

Without using the Bible, prove your case for Christianity.

Prove this "God" of your exists without speaking about Jesus or

the

Bible.

To atheists, the Bible is simply a storybook from a bygone era

and we

reject it as being a "truth" book. So, you may not use the Bible

in any

of your arguments.

So, this is your chance, Christians! Prove your case!

I, and many atheists here, await your response.

First things first. Please specify the criteria by which you will

evaluating proof. Will you use logic, reasoning, and empiricism?

If so,

then

I will require you to prove the validity of logic, reason, and

empiricism.

The catch is that you can't use logic, reason, and empiricism in

your

proof,

just like we can't use the Bible.

Unnecessary. By challenging DanielSan to prove the validity of

logic,

you have conceded the validity of logic.

But I've asked him not to use logic.

He doesn't have to use logic, faith, intuition, the golden fleece, or
anything else. You have conceded the point.

It is necessary to concede
the validity of logic every time you communicate.

One always starts with faith in something.

We do not use logic because we have faith in it; we use it because we
simply have no other choice.

In any case, your attempt to equivocate logic and the bible is

flawed.

To say "A equals not-A" is incoherent and self-refuting; to say "A
equals A and the Christian God does not exist" is not.

For the third time now...
Logic is not faith or a subject of faith, because logic is not the
aquisition of knowledge; It is merely the repackaging of knowledge in a
form that can be repackaged further with nowt information loss (like
simplifying an equation or storing an digital image in two different
formats).
The Bible, however, is a rich source of information and\or
misinformation that Rick defers to on faith.
~Iain
.

User: "Christopher A. Lee"
Title: Re: To All Christians: Prove your case!	15 Mar 2005 08:33:05 AM

On Tue, 15 Mar 2005 08:22:01 -0600, "Rick"
<Npl1O_SalphaP_AgeekM@juno.com> wrote:

DanielSan wrote in message ...

There are Christians coming to this _Atheist_ newsgroup spouting
rhetoric and nonsense, that I'm going to give them a chance to explain
themselves.

Duke, Carol T, etc, this post is for you!

Without using the Bible, prove your case for Christianity.

Prove this "God" of your exists without speaking about Jesus or the Bible.

To atheists, the Bible is simply a storybook from a bygone era and we
reject it as being a "truth" book. So, you may not use the Bible in any
of your arguments.

So, this is your chance, Christians! Prove your case!

I, and many atheists here, await your response.