| Topic: |
Religions > Atheism |
| User: |
"DanielSan" |
| Date: |
15 Mar 2005 05:56:29 AM |
| Object: |
To All Christians: Prove your case! |
There are Christians coming to this _Atheist_ newsgroup spouting
rhetoric and nonsense, that I'm going to give them a chance to explain
themselves.
Duke, Carol T, etc, this post is for you!
Without using the Bible, prove your case for Christianity.
Prove this "God" of your exists without speaking about Jesus or the Bible.
To atheists, the Bible is simply a storybook from a bygone era and we
reject it as being a "truth" book. So, you may not use the Bible in any
of your arguments.
So, this is your chance, Christians! Prove your case!
I, and many atheists here, await your response.
.
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| User: "DianaC" |
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| Title: Re: To All Christians: Prove your case! |
15 Mar 2005 01:50:06 PM |
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"DanielSan" <daniel-san@myrealbox.com> wrote in message
news:PtqdncOhf8nxUKvfRVn-iw@comcast.com...
There are Christians coming to this _Atheist_ newsgroup spouting rhetoric
and nonsense, that I'm going to give them a chance to explain themselves.
Duke, Carol T, etc, this post is for you!
Without using the Bible, prove your case for Christianity.
Prove this "God" of your exists without speaking about Jesus or the Bible.
To atheists, the Bible is simply a storybook from a bygone era and we
reject it as being a "truth" book. So, you may not use the Bible in any
of your arguments.
So, this is your chance, Christians! Prove your case!
I, and many atheists here, await your response.
It is reasonable for you to ask a Christian, before he uses the bible as
evidence that his religion is 'true', to prove to you that the BIBLE is
true, but what you are asking is unreasonable.
IT's like asking someone to prove that 2+2=4, but he can't use math or count
objects.
.
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| User: "Olrik" |
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| Title: Re: To All Christians: Prove your case! |
15 Mar 2005 11:34:37 PM |
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DianaC wrote:
"DanielSan" <daniel-san@myrealbox.com> wrote in message
news:PtqdncOhf8nxUKvfRVn-iw@comcast.com...
There are Christians coming to this _Atheist_ newsgroup spouting rhetoric
and nonsense, that I'm going to give them a chance to explain themselves.
Duke, Carol T, etc, this post is for you!
Without using the Bible, prove your case for Christianity.
Prove this "God" of your exists without speaking about Jesus or the Bible.
To atheists, the Bible is simply a storybook from a bygone era and we
reject it as being a "truth" book. So, you may not use the Bible in any
of your arguments.
So, this is your chance, Christians! Prove your case!
I, and many atheists here, await your response.
It is reasonable for you to ask a Christian, before he uses the bible as
evidence that his religion is 'true', to prove to you that the BIBLE is
true, but what you are asking is unreasonable.
If god existed, we should not need the bible to feel it, see it or
observe it. It would simply be common knowledge amongst all people and
we would not have this discussion.
IT's like asking someone to prove that 2+2=4, but he can't use math or count
objects.
--
Olrik
aa #1981
Qualified SMASH member
EAC Chief Food Inspector, Bacon Division
.
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| User: "DianaC" |
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| Title: Re: To All Christians: Prove your case! |
17 Mar 2005 08:23:02 AM |
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"Olrik" <olrik666@yahoo_BACON!_.com> wrote in message
news:OzPZd.34911$nT2.1839195@weber.videotron.net...
DianaC wrote:
"DanielSan" <daniel-san@myrealbox.com> wrote in message
news:PtqdncOhf8nxUKvfRVn-iw@comcast.com...
There are Christians coming to this _Atheist_ newsgroup spouting rhetoric
and nonsense, that I'm going to give them a chance to explain themselves.
Duke, Carol T, etc, this post is for you!
Without using the Bible, prove your case for Christianity.
Prove this "God" of your exists without speaking about Jesus or the
Bible.
To atheists, the Bible is simply a storybook from a bygone era and we
reject it as being a "truth" book. So, you may not use the Bible in any
of your arguments.
So, this is your chance, Christians! Prove your case!
I, and many atheists here, await your response.
It is reasonable for you to ask a Christian, before he uses the bible as
evidence that his religion is 'true', to prove to you that the BIBLE is
true, but what you are asking is unreasonable.
If god existed, we should not need the bible to feel it, see it or observe
it. It would simply be common knowledge amongst all people and we would
not have this discussion.
Amazing, isn't it, how many theists actually agree with you?
.
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| User: "Olrik" |
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| Title: Re: To All Christians: Prove your case! |
17 Mar 2005 09:48:40 AM |
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DianaC wrote:
"Olrik" <olrik666@yahoo_BACON!_.com> wrote in message
news:OzPZd.34911$nT2.1839195@weber.videotron.net...
DianaC wrote:
"DanielSan" <daniel-san@myrealbox.com> wrote in message
news:PtqdncOhf8nxUKvfRVn-iw@comcast.com...
There are Christians coming to this _Atheist_ newsgroup spouting rhetoric
and nonsense, that I'm going to give them a chance to explain themselves.
Duke, Carol T, etc, this post is for you!
Without using the Bible, prove your case for Christianity.
Prove this "God" of your exists without speaking about Jesus or the
Bible.
To atheists, the Bible is simply a storybook from a bygone era and we
reject it as being a "truth" book. So, you may not use the Bible in any
of your arguments.
So, this is your chance, Christians! Prove your case!
I, and many atheists here, await your response.
It is reasonable for you to ask a Christian, before he uses the bible as
evidence that his religion is 'true', to prove to you that the BIBLE is
true, but what you are asking is unreasonable.
If god existed, we should not need the bible to feel it, see it or observe
it. It would simply be common knowledge amongst all people and we would
not have this discussion.
Amazing, isn't it, how many theists actually agree with you?
Maybe. But theists have faith, not knowledge.
--
Olrik
aa #1981
Qualified SMASH member
EAC Chief Food Inspector, Bacon Division
.
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| User: "DianaC" |
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| Title: Re: To All Christians: Prove your case! |
17 Mar 2005 11:31:35 AM |
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"Olrik" <olrik666@yahoo_BACON!_.com> wrote in message
news:tFh_d.21420$Qg.111145@wagner.videotron.net...
DianaC wrote:
<snip to>
Amazing, isn't it, how many theists actually agree with you?
Maybe. But theists have faith, not knowledge.
We all of us work on faith, not knowledge. The difference is in the level of
evidence accepted before one believes. For instance, I know one person who
honestly doesn't believe that the sun will rise in the morning until after
he sees it happen. I know another who will purchase twenty lottery tickets
believing that he will win it...because the wind blew from the south east
that day.
(shrug)
.
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| User: "Nick J." |
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| Title: Re: To All Christians: Prove your case! |
17 Mar 2005 12:07:13 PM |
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DianaC wrote:
"Olrik" <olrik666@yahoo_BACON!_.com> wrote in message
news:tFh_d.21420$Qg.111145@wagner.videotron.net...
DianaC wrote:
<snip to>
Amazing, isn't it, how many theists actually agree with you?
Maybe. But theists have faith, not knowledge.
We all of us work on faith, not knowledge. The difference is in the
level of
evidence accepted before one believes. For instance, I know one
person who
honestly doesn't believe that the sun will rise in the morning until
after
he sees it happen. I know another who will purchase twenty lottery
tickets
believing that he will win it...because the wind blew from the south
east
that day.
(shrug)
....you know, those people sound like they are actually mentally ill.
I'm not being flippant here, I am quite serious. I hope that someone,
perhaps a relative of theirs, gets some medical help for them soon.
Mental health is a serious thing, and should not be taken lightly.
.
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| User: "Olrik" |
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| Title: Re: To All Christians: Prove your case! |
17 Mar 2005 03:38:49 PM |
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DianaC wrote:
"Olrik" <olrik666@yahoo_BACON!_.com> wrote in message
news:tFh_d.21420$Qg.111145@wagner.videotron.net...
DianaC wrote:
<snip to>
Amazing, isn't it, how many theists actually agree with you?
Maybe. But theists have faith, not knowledge.
We all of us work on faith, not knowledge. The difference is in the level of
evidence accepted before one believes.
Then theists have a very low threshold for acceptation of evidence. That
low threshold is sometimes called "gullibility".
For instance, I know one person who
honestly doesn't believe that the sun will rise in the morning until after
he sees it happen. I know another who will purchase twenty lottery tickets
believing that he will win it...because the wind blew from the south east
that day.
I don't personally know idiots like that.
(shrug)
--
Olrik
aa #1981
Qualified SMASH member
EAC Chief Food Inspector, Bacon Division
.
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| User: "DianaC" |
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| Title: Re: To All Christians: Prove your case! |
17 Mar 2005 06:49:38 PM |
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"Olrik" <olrik666@yahoo_BACON!_.com> wrote in message
news:KNm_d.11040$sC5.151743@weber.videotron.net...
DianaC wrote:
"Olrik" <olrik666@yahoo_BACON!_.com> wrote in message
news:tFh_d.21420$Qg.111145@wagner.videotron.net...
DianaC wrote:
<snip to>
Amazing, isn't it, how many theists actually agree with you?
Maybe. But theists have faith, not knowledge.
We all of us work on faith, not knowledge. The difference is in the level
of evidence accepted before one believes.
Then theists have a very low threshold for acceptation of evidence. That
low threshold is sometimes called "gullibility".
consider; ANY acceptance of evidence at a level below that which you accept
could be so catagorized; no matter who 'you' are.
Anybody who insists upon a level of evidence greater than that which you
accept can be catagorized as 'cynical'.
(shrug)
For instance, I know one person who honestly doesn't believe that the sun
will rise in the morning until after he sees it happen. I know another
who will purchase twenty lottery tickets believing that he will win
it...because the wind blew from the south east that day.
I don't personally know idiots like that.
Well, I happen to live in the area that is the founding home of the Flat
Earth Society. Which is also the area where most of the Space Shuttle
designers, NASA and JPL rocket scientists, stealth fighter/bomber designers,
Lockheed and Boeing workers and the Rutans live. There is a greater variety
of nut around here than is even normal for California in general...and
that's not easy.
But I'll bet you (and I don't bet, this is a sure thing) that you DO know
someone who buys lottery tickets for flimsier reasons than the way the wind
blows. ;-)
.
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| User: "Olrik" |
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| Title: Re: To All Christians: Prove your case! |
17 Mar 2005 10:04:03 PM |
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DianaC wrote:
"Olrik" <olrik666@yahoo_BACON!_.com> wrote in message
news:KNm_d.11040$sC5.151743@weber.videotron.net...
DianaC wrote:
"Olrik" <olrik666@yahoo_BACON!_.com> wrote in message
news:tFh_d.21420$Qg.111145@wagner.videotron.net...
DianaC wrote:
<snip to>
Amazing, isn't it, how many theists actually agree with you?
Maybe. But theists have faith, not knowledge.
We all of us work on faith, not knowledge. The difference is in the level
of evidence accepted before one believes.
Then theists have a very low threshold for acceptation of evidence. That
low threshold is sometimes called "gullibility".
consider; ANY acceptance of evidence at a level below that which you accept
could be so catagorized; no matter who 'you' are.
Anybody who insists upon a level of evidence greater than that which you
accept can be catagorized as 'cynical'.
"Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence". You've heard that
before, yes?
(shrug)
For instance, I know one person who honestly doesn't believe that the sun
will rise in the morning until after he sees it happen. I know another
who will purchase twenty lottery tickets believing that he will win
it...because the wind blew from the south east that day.
I don't personally know idiots like that.
Well, I happen to live in the area that is the founding home of the Flat
Earth Society. Which is also the area where most of the Space Shuttle
designers, NASA and JPL rocket scientists, stealth fighter/bomber designers,
Lockheed and Boeing workers and the Rutans live. There is a greater variety
of nut around here than is even normal for California in general...and
that's not easy.
But I'll bet you (and I don't bet, this is a sure thing) that you DO know
someone who buys lottery tickets for flimsier reasons than the way the wind
blows. ;-)
Well, it's almost understandable : look at the odds of winning!
--
Olrik
aa #1981
Qualified SMASH member
EAC Chief Food Inspector, Bacon Division
.
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| User: "DianaC" |
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| Title: Re: To All Christians: Prove your case! |
16 Mar 2005 08:53:02 AM |
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"Olrik" <olrik666@yahoo_BACON!_.com> wrote in message
news:OzPZd.34911$nT2.1839195@weber.videotron.net...
DianaC wrote:
"DanielSan" <daniel-san@myrealbox.com> wrote in message
news:PtqdncOhf8nxUKvfRVn-iw@comcast.com...
There are Christians coming to this _Atheist_ newsgroup spouting rhetoric
and nonsense, that I'm going to give them a chance to explain themselves.
Duke, Carol T, etc, this post is for you!
Without using the Bible, prove your case for Christianity.
Prove this "God" of your exists without speaking about Jesus or the
Bible.
To atheists, the Bible is simply a storybook from a bygone era and we
reject it as being a "truth" book. So, you may not use the Bible in any
of your arguments.
So, this is your chance, Christians! Prove your case!
I, and many atheists here, await your response.
It is reasonable for you to ask a Christian, before he uses the bible as
evidence that his religion is 'true', to prove to you that the BIBLE is
true, but what you are asking is unreasonable.
If god existed, we should not need the bible to feel it, see it or observe
it. It would simply be common knowledge amongst all people and we would
not have this discussion.
Moving the goal posts. Christianity isn't all of theism any more than
communist anti-theists is all of atheism. "Danialsan" was challenging
CHRISTIANS to prove their particular religion without reference to the
bible. Most people are theists already...
.
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| User: "Rick" |
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| Title: Re: To All Christians: Prove your case! |
16 Mar 2005 07:24:34 AM |
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Olrik wrote in message ...
DianaC wrote:
"DanielSan" <daniel-san@myrealbox.com> wrote in message
news:PtqdncOhf8nxUKvfRVn-iw@comcast.com...
There are Christians coming to this _Atheist_ newsgroup spouting rhetoric
and nonsense, that I'm going to give them a chance to explain themselves.
Duke, Carol T, etc, this post is for you!
Without using the Bible, prove your case for Christianity.
Prove this "God" of your exists without speaking about Jesus or the
Bible.
To atheists, the Bible is simply a storybook from a bygone era and we
reject it as being a "truth" book. So, you may not use the Bible in any
of your arguments.
So, this is your chance, Christians! Prove your case!
I, and many atheists here, await your response.
It is reasonable for you to ask a Christian, before he uses the bible as
evidence that his religion is 'true', to prove to you that the BIBLE is
true, but what you are asking is unreasonable.
If god existed, we should not need the bible to feel it, see it or
observe it.
That's a common belief. I like to think of it as the "No True ScotsGod"
logical fallacy. BTW, have you noticed that many people do come to a belief
in God without the bible?
It would simply be common knowledge amongst all people and
we would not have this discussion.
IT's like asking someone to prove that 2+2=4, but he can't use math or
count
objects.
- Rick
.
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| User: "Don Kresch" |
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| Title: Re: To All Christians: Prove your case! |
16 Mar 2005 08:43:36 PM |
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In alt.atheism on Wed, 16 Mar 2005 07:24:34 -0600, "Rick"
<Npl1O_SalphaP_AgeekM@juno.com> let us all know that:
Olrik wrote in message ...
DianaC wrote:
"DanielSan" <daniel-san@myrealbox.com> wrote in message
news:PtqdncOhf8nxUKvfRVn-iw@comcast.com...
There are Christians coming to this _Atheist_ newsgroup spouting rhetoric
and nonsense, that I'm going to give them a chance to explain themselves.
Duke, Carol T, etc, this post is for you!
Without using the Bible, prove your case for Christianity.
Prove this "God" of your exists without speaking about Jesus or the
Bible.
To atheists, the Bible is simply a storybook from a bygone era and we
reject it as being a "truth" book. So, you may not use the Bible in any
of your arguments.
So, this is your chance, Christians! Prove your case!
I, and many atheists here, await your response.
It is reasonable for you to ask a Christian, before he uses the bible as
evidence that his religion is 'true', to prove to you that the BIBLE is
true, but what you are asking is unreasonable.
If god existed, we should not need the bible to feel it, see it or
observe it.
That's a common belief. I like to think of it as the "No True ScotsGod"
logical fallacy.
However, it's not a fallacy.
Don
---
aa #51, Knight of BAAWA, DNRC o-, Member of the [H]orde
Atheist Minister for St. Dogbert.
"No being is so important that he can usurp the rights of another"
Picard to Data/Graves "The Schizoid Man"
.
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| User: "DianaC" |
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| Title: Re: To All Christians: Prove your case! |
17 Mar 2005 08:24:59 AM |
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"Don Kresch" <ROT13.qxerfpu@jv.ee.pbz.com> wrote in message
news:vlrh31lqi56mosft51ipuaq2tqr7b07tbd@4ax.com...
<snip to>
That's a common belief. I like to think of it as the "No True ScotsGod"
logical fallacy.
However, it's not a fallacy.
Odd, it has all the earmarks of one, and I personally love it. ;-) Indeed,
if Rick gives his permission, I'm going to use it. Giving proper attribution
most of the time, that is.
.
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| User: "Rick" |
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| Title: Re: To All Christians: Prove your case! |
17 Mar 2005 11:46:17 PM |
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DianaC wrote in message
"Don Kresch" <ROT13.qxerfpu@jv.ee.pbz.com> wrote in message
news:vlrh31lqi56mosft51ipuaq2tqr7b07tbd@4ax.com...
<snip to>
[Restoring the original unprovable claim:]
If god existed, we should not need the bible to feel it, see it or
observe it.
That's a common belief. I like to think of it as the "No True ScotsGod"
logical fallacy.
However, it's not a fallacy.
Odd, it has all the earmarks of one, and I personally love it. ;-) Indeed,
if Rick gives his permission, I'm going to use it. Giving proper
attribution
most of the time, that is.
I always wanted to achieve lasting fame. It now belongs to the ages.
- Rick
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| User: "Olrik" |
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| Title: Re: To All Christians: Prove your case! |
16 Mar 2005 10:13:09 PM |
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Rick wrote:
Olrik wrote in message ...
DianaC wrote:
"DanielSan" <daniel-san@myrealbox.com> wrote in message
news:PtqdncOhf8nxUKvfRVn-iw@comcast.com...
There are Christians coming to this _Atheist_ newsgroup spouting rhetoric
and nonsense, that I'm going to give them a chance to explain themselves.
Duke, Carol T, etc, this post is for you!
Without using the Bible, prove your case for Christianity.
Prove this "God" of your exists without speaking about Jesus or the
Bible.
To atheists, the Bible is simply a storybook from a bygone era and we
reject it as being a "truth" book. So, you may not use the Bible in any
of your arguments.
So, this is your chance, Christians! Prove your case!
I, and many atheists here, await your response.
It is reasonable for you to ask a Christian, before he uses the bible as
evidence that his religion is 'true', to prove to you that the BIBLE is
true, but what you are asking is unreasonable.
If god existed, we should not need the bible to feel it, see it or
observe it.
That's a common belief. I like to think of it as the "No True ScotsGod"
logical fallacy. BTW, have you noticed that many people do come to a belief
in God without the bible?
Sure. They're just taught about "god" and, for a reason that escape me,
continue to believe in that stuff into adulthood.
It would simply be common knowledge amongst all people and
we would not have this discussion.
IT's like asking someone to prove that 2+2=4, but he can't use math or
count
objects.
- Rick
--
Olrik
aa #1981
Qualified SMASH member
EAC Chief Food Inspector, Bacon Division
.
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| User: "Vic Sagerquist" |
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| Title: Re: To All Christians: Prove your case! |
16 Mar 2005 12:05:56 PM |
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on 16 Mar 2005 in alt.atheism, Rick dropped trou, farted, whirled, then
shouted:
If god existed, we should not need the bible to feel it, see it or
observe it.
That's a common belief. I like to think of it as the "No True
ScotsGod" logical fallacy.
LOL! I must admit I haven't heard that one before.
BTW, have you noticed that many people do
come to a belief in God without the bible?
Yes, most do. If more people read the bible instead of having it
"interpreted" for them in church, there would be a much larger percentage
of atheists in the world.
--
Vic Sagerquist
aa#2011
Supervisor, EAC Department of little adhesive-backed "L" shaped
chrome-plastic doo-dads to add feet to Jesus fish department
Plonked by Jason Gastrich for all eternity...
______________
As you were, I was. As I am, you will be.
--- Hunter S. Thompson
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| User: "Rick" |
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| Title: Re: To All Christians: Prove your case! |
16 Mar 2005 10:35:10 PM |
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Vic Sagerquist wrote in message ...
on 16 Mar 2005 in alt.atheism, Rick dropped trou, farted, whirled, then
shouted:
If god existed, we should not need the bible to feel it, see it or
observe it.
That's a common belief. I like to think of it as the "No True
ScotsGod" logical fallacy.
LOL! I must admit I haven't heard that one before.
I thought of it long ago, but this may be the first time I actually used it.
It's just the basic flaw in the usual appeal to "The Problem of Pain", or
theodicy. People assume things about God which might be true if *they* were
God. So instead of proving God doesn't exist, they really just prove that
*they* are not God. Which most folks figured on anyway.
BTW, have you noticed that many people do
come to a belief in God without the bible?
Yes, most do. If more people read the bible instead of having it
"interpreted" for them in church, there would be a much larger percentage
of atheists in the world.
- Rick
.
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| User: "wcb" |
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| Title: Re: To All Christians: Prove your case! |
16 Mar 2005 11:20:39 AM |
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Olrik wrote:
DianaC wrote:
"DanielSan" <daniel-san@myrealbox.com> wrote in message
news:PtqdncOhf8nxUKvfRVn-iw@comcast.com...
There are Christians coming to this _Atheist_ newsgroup spouting rhetoric
and nonsense, that I'm going to give them a chance to explain themselves.
Duke, Carol T, etc, this post is for you!
Without using the Bible, prove your case for Christianity.
Prove this "God" of your exists without speaking about Jesus or the
Bible.
To atheists, the Bible is simply a storybook from a bygone era and we
reject it as being a "truth" book. So, you may not use the Bible in any
of your arguments.
So, this is your chance, Christians! Prove your case!
I, and many atheists here, await your response.
It is reasonable for you to ask a Christian, before he uses the bible as
evidence that his religion is 'true', to prove to you that the BIBLE is
true, but what you are asking is unreasonable.
If god existed, we should not need the bible to feel it, see it or
observe it. It would simply be common knowledge amongst all people and
we would not have this discussion.
IT's like asking someone to prove that 2+2=4, but he can't use math or
count objects.
I have no objection to xians using the bible.
But I must note a mere assertion taken from the bible
is a mere assertion and not evidence the assertion is
true. Part of the problem is so many bible assertions
disagree violently with yet other assertions.
and often with known facts outside the bible.
Some parts of the bible assert god is loving
and merciful. Some parts claim he did things
that are ugly genocide and mass murder void
of all mercy or love.
The bible claims followers of christ can work
grand and great miracles, and they don't.
The contradictions of the bible are notorious,
did Jesus ascend to heaven from a room in Jersualem?
Or a town called Bethany, or not at all according to
John and Matthew?
What about the two silly and contradictoy Genesis
creation tall tales?
Use the bible, be ready to be called on it if
you use it in a foolish manner.
Logic will be mandatory.
Mark says Jesus ascended to heaven from a room
in Jerusalem, Matthew tells us after the resurrection
he never was in Jerusalem.
If you want to use the bible, be ready to
deal with these problems.
--
Cheerful Charlie
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| User: "duke" |
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| Title: Re: To All Christians: Prove your case! |
15 Mar 2005 05:28:24 PM |
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On Tue, 15 Mar 2005 19:50:06 GMT, "DianaC" <dianaiad@vernoyoudontizon.net>
wrote:
IT's like asking someone to prove that 2+2=4, but he can't use math or count
objects.
That's over his head.
duke
*****
Acts 2
38Peter replied, "Repent and be baptized, every
one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the
forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive
the gift of the Holy Spirit".
*****
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| User: "Vic Sagerquist" |
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| Title: Re: To All Christians: Prove your case! |
15 Mar 2005 02:26:37 PM |
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on 15 Mar 2005 in alt.atheism, DianaC dropped trou, farted, whirled,
then shouted:
It is reasonable for you to ask a Christian, before he uses the bible
as evidence that his religion is 'true', to prove to you that the
BIBLE is true, but what you are asking is unreasonable.
IT's like asking someone to prove that 2+2=4, but he can't use math or
count objects.
Not really. Math exists in reality, it's not a story about math which
claims it is true because it is written in the story.
I agree with your condition that the Bible must be proven to be true before
it can be used to verify the religions that stem from it. However, this
would be a most difficult task since the miracles described in the bible
would have to be performed on a daily basis, or as regularly as normal
phenomena (like rain) occur. Also, many of the things described as truth
in the bible would require one to die to prove.
--
Vic Sagerquist
aa#2011
Supervisor, EAC Department of little adhesive-backed "L" shaped
chrome-plastic doo-dads to add feet to Jesus fish department
Plonked by Jason Gastrich for all eternity...
______________
As you were, I was. As I am, you will be.
--- Hunter S. Thompson
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| User: "DianaC" |
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| Title: Re: To All Christians: Prove your case! |
15 Mar 2005 04:02:38 PM |
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"Vic Sagerquist" <address@withheld.com> wrote in message
news:Xns961A7E854D1A0vicman@127.0.0.1...
on 15 Mar 2005 in alt.atheism, DianaC dropped trou, farted, whirled,
then shouted:
It is reasonable for you to ask a Christian, before he uses the bible
as evidence that his religion is 'true', to prove to you that the
BIBLE is true, but what you are asking is unreasonable.
IT's like asking someone to prove that 2+2=4, but he can't use math or
count objects.
Not really. Math exists in reality, it's not a story about math which
claims it is true because it is written in the story.
I agree with your condition that the Bible must be proven to be true
before
it can be used to verify the religions that stem from it. However, this
would be a most difficult task since the miracles described in the bible
would have to be performed on a daily basis, or as regularly as normal
phenomena (like rain) occur. Also, many of the things described as truth
in the bible would require one to die to prove.
It doesn't matter how difficult a task it is. What I am pointing out is that
it is unreasonable for an atheist to require a Christian to prove that
CHRISTIANITY is true without using the book that is the basis for it.
It IS reasonable to ask a Christian to provide some evidence that the bible
is true without using the bible itself as proof; you know, no 'the bible is
true because God said so, and I know God said so because the bible said He
did!"...no circular reasoning, in otherwords. If the bible is true (as I
believe it to be, mostly) then one should be able to find outside evidence
for that truth. Once that is done, then one can use the book itself to
'prove' whatever doctrine is in dispute.
But to require that a Christian prove that his belief, which is based upon
the bible, to prove it without reference to the book it's based on?
Nope, that's unfair.
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| User: "DanielSan" |
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| Title: Re: To All Christians: Prove your case! |
15 Mar 2005 04:34:25 PM |
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DianaC wrote:
"Vic Sagerquist" <address@withheld.com> wrote in message
news:Xns961A7E854D1A0vicman@127.0.0.1...
on 15 Mar 2005 in alt.atheism, DianaC dropped trou, farted, whirled,
then shouted:
It is reasonable for you to ask a Christian, before he uses the bible
as evidence that his religion is 'true', to prove to you that the
BIBLE is true, but what you are asking is unreasonable.
IT's like asking someone to prove that 2+2=4, but he can't use math or
count objects.
Not really. Math exists in reality, it's not a story about math which
claims it is true because it is written in the story.
I agree with your condition that the Bible must be proven to be true
before
it can be used to verify the religions that stem from it. However, this
would be a most difficult task since the miracles described in the bible
would have to be performed on a daily basis, or as regularly as normal
phenomena (like rain) occur. Also, many of the things described as truth
in the bible would require one to die to prove.
It doesn't matter how difficult a task it is. What I am pointing out is that
it is unreasonable for an atheist to require a Christian to prove that
CHRISTIANITY is true without using the book that is the basis for it.
It IS reasonable to ask a Christian to provide some evidence that the bible
is true without using the bible itself as proof; you know, no 'the bible is
true because God said so, and I know God said so because the bible said He
did!"...no circular reasoning, in otherwords. If the bible is true (as I
believe it to be, mostly) then one should be able to find outside evidence
for that truth. Once that is done, then one can use the book itself to
'prove' whatever doctrine is in dispute.
But to require that a Christian prove that his belief, which is based upon
the bible, to prove it without reference to the book it's based on?
Nope, that's unfair.
It's true that it's unfair. It's also unfair to require me to accept
the "existance" of "God", else I'll suffer eternal damnation. But, more
on that later.
Christians base their faith and morals in the events of the Bible and
the teachings of the "God" character in this book.
When I said that they can't use the Bible, I never suggested to just
toss out the events in the Bible, I simply meant that they couldn't use
the Bible to prove their case.
For example, this is not the kind of proof I want:
Claim: Jesus walked on water.
Proof: "During the fourth watch of the night Jesus went out to them,
walking on the lake." (Matthew 24:25)
This event cannot be proved without utilizing the Bible, as Rick so
eloquently pointed out a bit ago. Therefore, if nothing in the Bible
can be proven to have actually happened without using the Bible, this
will not be sufficient proof for atheists or Non-Christians.
It is sheer lunacy for a Christian to try to use the Bible as proof when
all evidence outside the Bible proves the contrary.
For example: The story of Noah.
It is true that scientists found evidence of a massive flood at about
the time Noah is said to have built his Ark. However, the flood was
proven to be regional. It did not "cover the tallest mountains" as
evidenced in Genesis 7:20. In fact, it could be said that Noah didn't
exist at all, and was, in fact, an animal trader from somewhere near
modern day Iraq.
There is the story of Gilgamesh and Utnapishtim on Tablet 11 written by
Shin-eqi-unninni:
---
The gods shook like beaten dogs, hiding in the far corners of heaven,
Ishtar screamed and wailed:
"The days of old have turned to stone:
We have decided evil things in our Assembly!
Why did we decide those evil things in our Assembly?
Why did we decide to destroy our people?
We have only just now created our beloved humans;
We now destroy them in the sea!"
All the gods wept and wailed along with her,
All the gods sat trembling, and wept.
I released a dove from the boat,
It flew off, but circled around and returned,
For it could find no perch.
I then released a swallow from the boat,
It flew off, but circled around and returned,
For it could find no perch.
I then released a raven from the boat,
It flew off, and the waters had receded:
It eats, it scratches the ground, but it does not circle around and return.
I then sent out all the living things in every direction and sacrificed
a sheep on that very spot.
---
According to this story, the flood lasted for 7 days. Apparently,
during that time, it was rare for a large storm to kick up around the
waters of today's Persian Gulf (just as it's rare today). It only
happens like once every thousand years, or something. Anyway,
Utnapishtim was a trader and a king. He and his family are on a boat
with that day's cargo: Animals and beer. Suddenly, a large storm kicks
up; a hurricane. They pull all the animals they can onto the boat and
the boat is washed out to sea. The storm is horrible. They lose a lot
of the animals. At the end of the storm, they are unable to see any
land. They are forced to sacrifice many of the animals on board for
food. Having no water on board (the storm came by surprise), they drank
the only thing available to them: The beer.
They were out to sea for 7 days.
Upon returning to land, their creditors want their money or cargo back
(animals and beer). Unfortunately for Utnapishtim and his family, they
were forced to eat and drink the cargo. Utnapishtim and his family are
forced into exile somewhere near mordern-day Qatar.
Now, this is a lot of information. Most of it probably cannot be
proven. However, atheists will most likely find this story to be true.
Why? Because it's reasonable and sensible. It's replicatable today.
There is no magic spells, no hocus pocus, nothing except replicatable
events. There is no "two-by-two animals", no "waters covering the
tallest mountains", nothing like that. It sounds plausible.
This is why the story of Utnapishtim is more credible than the story of
Noah. Noah's story has a bunch more hocus-pocus than Utnapishtim's
story, yet many of the same things are said.
I hope I didn't ramble too much. :-)
.
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| User: "DianaC" |
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| Title: Re: To All Christians: Prove your case! |
15 Mar 2005 05:22:02 PM |
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"DanielSan" <daniel-san@myrealbox.com> wrote in message
news:UoWdnb4P5L5w_6rfRVn-qA@comcast.com...
DianaC wrote:
<snip to the very ungrammatical; >>
But to require that a Christian prove that his belief, which is based
upon the bible, to prove it without reference to the book it's based on?
Nope, that's unfair.
It's true that it's unfair. It's also unfair to require me to accept the
"existance" of "God", else I'll suffer eternal damnation. But, more on
that later.
Er...isn't that sorta circular in and of itself? After all, it would only
apply to you if you bought into it, and if you bought into it you wouldn't,
by definition, be atheist and therefore wouldn't be damned, right?
Christians base their faith and morals in the events of the Bible and the
teachings of the "God" character in this book.
That's the story, yeah.
When I said that they can't use the Bible, I never suggested to just toss
out the events in the Bible, I simply meant that they couldn't use the
Bible to prove their case.
Not until you both agree that the bible is an appropriate prooftext, no. So
the Christian's first job, if he wants to essay this, is to get you
convinced that the bible is evidence to turn to, rather than something that
must be first proven to be true...
For example, this is not the kind of proof I want:
Claim: Jesus walked on water.
Proof: "During the fourth watch of the night Jesus went out to them,
walking on the lake." (Matthew 24:25)
And you are quite right to refuse this. However, that's not what you said in
the beginning post. Glad you cleared that up. ;-)
This event cannot be proved without utilizing the Bible, as Rick so
eloquently pointed out a bit ago. Therefore, if nothing in the Bible can
be proven to have actually happened without using the Bible, this will not
be sufficient proof for atheists or Non-Christians.
Which is why I said that while it is reasonable for you to ask for proof
that the bible is a reliable tool, it's not reasonable for you to insist
that Christians prove Christianity without recourse to the bible. I guess
it's analogous to proving that one can walk across the river without
mentioning that there is a bridge...
It is sheer lunacy for a Christian to try to use the Bible as proof when
all evidence outside the Bible proves the contrary.
If that's how you feel, fine....but the question from you then should be
"prove that the bible is reliable and true', not 'prove Christianity without
the bible', because if the bible is not reliable and 'true', then
Christianity is, by definition, also not true. First things first. ;-)
For example: The story of Noah.
It is true that scientists found evidence of a massive flood at about the
time Noah is said to have built his Ark. However, the flood was proven to
be regional. It did not "cover the tallest mountains" as evidenced in
Genesis 7:20. In fact, it could be said that Noah didn't exist at all,
and was, in fact, an animal trader from somewhere near modern day Iraq.
There is the story of Gilgamesh and Utnapishtim on Tablet 11 written by
Shin-eqi-unninni:
---
The gods shook like beaten dogs, hiding in the far corners of heaven,
Ishtar screamed and wailed:
"The days of old have turned to stone:
We have decided evil things in our Assembly!
Why did we decide those evil things in our Assembly?
Why did we decide to destroy our people?
We have only just now created our beloved humans;
We now destroy them in the sea!"
All the gods wept and wailed along with her,
All the gods sat trembling, and wept.
I released a dove from the boat,
It flew off, but circled around and returned,
For it could find no perch.
I then released a swallow from the boat,
It flew off, but circled around and returned,
For it could find no perch.
I then released a raven from the boat,
It flew off, and the waters had receded:
It eats, it scratches the ground, but it does not circle around and
return.
I then sent out all the living things in every direction and sacrificed a
sheep on that very spot.
---
According to this story, the flood lasted for 7 days. Apparently, during
that time, it was rare for a large storm to kick up around the waters of
today's Persian Gulf (just as it's rare today). It only happens like once
every thousand years, or something. Anyway, Utnapishtim was a trader and
a king. He and his family are on a boat with that day's cargo: Animals
and beer. Suddenly, a large storm kicks up; a hurricane. They pull all
the animals they can onto the boat and the boat is washed out to sea. The
storm is horrible. They lose a lot of the animals. At the end of the
storm, they are unable to see any land. They are forced to sacrifice many
of the animals on board for food. Having no water on board (the storm
came by surprise), they drank the only thing available to them: The beer.
They were out to sea for 7 days.
Upon returning to land, their creditors want their money or cargo back
(animals and beer). Unfortunately for Utnapishtim and his family, they
were forced to eat and drink the cargo. Utnapishtim and his family are
forced into exile somewhere near mordern-day Qatar.
Now, this is a lot of information. Most of it probably cannot be proven.
However, atheists will most likely find this story to be true. Why?
Because it's reasonable and sensible. It's replicatable today. There is
no magic spells, no hocus pocus, nothing except replicatable events.
There is no "two-by-two animals", no "waters covering the tallest
mountains", nothing like that. It sounds plausible.
This is why the story of Utnapishtim is more credible than the story of
Noah. Noah's story has a bunch more hocus-pocus than Utnapishtim's story,
yet many of the same things are said.
I hope I didn't ramble too much. :-)
Nope, I enjoy both stories. ;-)
.
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| User: "Vic Sagerquist" |
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| Title: Re: To All Christians: Prove your case! |
15 Mar 2005 08:09:14 PM |
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On 15 Mar 2005, DianaC dropped trou, farted, whirled, then shouted:
But to require that a Christian prove that his belief, which is based
upon the bible, to prove it without reference to the book it's based
on?
Why? The only thing you can say about the truth of any religion outside of
the religion is that people believe it. If you could show, outside of the
bible, that Christianity is true, belief would not be necessary.
--
Vic Sagerquist
aa#2011
Supervisor, EAC Department of little adhesive-backed "L" shaped
chrome-plastic doo-dads to add feet to Jesus fish department
Plonked by Jason Gastrich for all eternity...
______________
As you were, I was. As I am, you will be.
--- Hunter S. Thompson
.
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| User: "DianaC" |
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| Title: Re: To All Christians: Prove your case! |
16 Mar 2005 08:50:44 AM |
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"Vic Sagerquist" <address@withheld.com> wrote in message
news:Xns961AB8E9A7375vicman@216.196.97.136...
On 15 Mar 2005, DianaC dropped trou, farted, whirled, then shouted:
But to require that a Christian prove that his belief, which is based
upon the bible, to prove it without reference to the book it's based
on?
Why? The only thing you can say about the truth of any religion outside
of
the religion is that people believe it. If you could show, outside of the
bible, that Christianity is true, belief would not be necessary.
What part of Christianity could you show to be true, without referencing
anything that is in the bible?
(shrug)
It's Christianity's Rosetta stone, y'know. At the moment, there are people
who can read Egyptian hyroglyphs as easily as they read their native
languages. However, until 1879, nobody could interpret any of them. Until,
that is, deSacy and Akerblad were able to use their knowledge of coptic and
Greek to decifer the thing.
Egyptian hyroglyphics have been around for a very, very long time,
unexplained and mysterious...but now the Rosetta Stone is the prooftext for
them; you go back to it for the first bits of understanding we have, and
from that comes every bit of understanding we have gained. Without it we
would still be unable to read Egyptian. Yet, it is one relatively small
stone with some engraving on it, compared to the vast amount of hyroglyphs
out there to read, and it alone was the key to understanding.
However, what if the Rosetta Stone had been fake? First, one had to
establish it as a legitimate evidence source, THEN it could be used. If it
were fake, anything we got from it would automatically be suspect, even
guaranteed wrong.
Christianity is based upon the events as told in the New Testament. Through
that lens, a Christian views everything else in the world. So my claim is,
first, establish the credibility of the bible. If you can't, then like a
fake Rosetta Stone, everything else is suspect. If you CAN, then it is
certainly a proper primary evidence source; you don't have to prove anything
without using it, any more than you HAVE to prove that this Egyptian
hyroglyph means that---and ignore the role that the Rosetta stone played in
your ability to read it.
So my position is this: you can't prove any religion true without the use of
their sacred scriptures; they are the primary evidence for that truth. IT's
not fair to require it. However, it is fair, and quite reasonable, to
require proof that the evidence they base their religion on, that is, their
scripture, is 'true'.
If, that is, they are actually insisting that you believe as they do. ;-)
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| User: "Vic Sagerquist" |
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| Title: Re: To All Christians: Prove your case! |
16 Mar 2005 10:18:14 AM |
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on 16 Mar 2005 in alt.atheism, DianaC dropped trou, farted, whirled, then
shouted:
What part of Christianity could you show to be true, without referencing
anything that is in the bible?
None. Our point exactly.
--
Vic Sagerquist
aa#2011
Supervisor, EAC Department of little adhesive-backed "L" shaped
chrome-plastic doo-dads to add feet to Jesus fish department
Plonked by Jason Gastrich for all eternity...
______________
As you were, I was. As I am, you will be.
--- Hunter S. Thompson
.
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| User: "DianaC" |
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| Title: Re: To All Christians: Prove your case! |
16 Mar 2005 10:58:05 AM |
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"Vic Sagerquist" <address@withheld.com> wrote in message
news:Xns961B5468AB22vicman@127.0.0.1...
on 16 Mar 2005 in alt.atheism, DianaC dropped trou, farted, whirled, then
shouted:
What part of Christianity could you show to be true, without referencing
anything that is in the bible?
None. Our point exactly.
And my point is that it isn't fair to ask this. It IS fair to ask them to
show that the bible is good primary evidence, however.
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| User: "Rev. Karl E. Taylor" |
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| Title: Re: To All Christians: Prove your case! |
16 Mar 2005 11:06:06 AM |
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DianaC wrote:
"Vic Sagerquist" <address@withheld.com> wrote in message
news:Xns961B5468AB22vicman@127.0.0.1...
on 16 Mar 2005 in alt.atheism, DianaC dropped trou, farted, whirled, then
shouted:
What part of Christianity could you show to be true, without referencing
anything that is in the bible?
None. Our point exactly.
And my point is that it isn't fair to ask this. It IS fair to ask them to
show that the bible is good primary evidence, however.
But the bible is not good primary evidence, as there is nothing out side
of it to support it.
And it is fair to ask it. I'll ask it of any xtian, hindu, muslim,
wiccan, et al.
Convince me that your faith is the right faith, without using your
sacred text. Prove to me that your god is real and fact, without using
your sacred text.
The problem with religion is, when you remove the book, it falls apart.
--
There are none more ignorant and useless,
than they that seek answers on their knees,
with their eyes closed.
____________________________________________________________________
Rev. Karl E. Taylor
A.A #1143 PLONKED by Bob
Apostle of Dr. Lao EAC: Virgin Conversion Unit Director
____________________________________________________________________
.
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| User: "DianaC" |
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| Title: Re: To All Christians: Prove your case! |
16 Mar 2005 01:50:32 PM |
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"Rev. Karl E. Taylor" <ktayloraz@qwest.net> wrote in message
news:rIZZd.25$2u.616@news.uswest.net...
DianaC wrote:
"Vic Sagerquist" <address@withheld.com> wrote in message
news:Xns961B5468AB22vicman@127.0.0.1...
on 16 Mar 2005 in alt.atheism, DianaC dropped trou, farted, whirled, then
shouted:
What part of Christianity could you show to be true, without referencing
anything that is in the bible?
None. Our point exactly.
And my point is that it isn't fair to ask this. It IS fair to ask them to
show that the bible is good primary evidence, however.
But the bible is not good primary evidence, as there is nothing out side
of it to support it.
Which is begging the question.
And it is fair to ask it. I'll ask it of any xtian, hindu, muslim,
wiccan, et al.
What that the Hindu should prove her religion without using the bible?
(sorry, couldn't resist..)
Convince me that your faith is the right faith, without using your sacred
text. Prove to me that your god is real and fact, without using your
sacred text.
That's unfair. Nobody can do that, and nobody should be expected to do that.
However, if they are insisting that you agree with them that their religion
IS 'real and fact', it is more than fair to demand proof that the evidence
they base their religion upon, their scriptures, are 'true' first.
Then, of course, you can fight about whether your interpretation of that
scripture is right, so that the religion based upon it is 'true'. ;-)
The problem with religion is, when you remove the book, it falls apart.
The problem with walking across a river is, if you remove the bridge, you
get wet. The thing is, first establish the bridge. THEN you can dicide if it
will support you.
.
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| User: "Rev. Karl E. Taylor" |
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| Title: Re: To All Christians: Prove your case! |
16 Mar 2005 02:02:55 PM |
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DianaC wrote:
"Rev. Karl E. Taylor" <ktayloraz@qwest.net> wrote in message
news:rIZZd.25$2u.616@news.uswest.net...
DianaC wrote:
"Vic Sagerquist" <address@withheld.com> wrote in message
news:Xns961B5468AB22vicman@127.0.0.1...
on 16 Mar 2005 in alt.atheism, DianaC dropped trou, farted, whirled, then
shouted:
What part of Christianity could you show to be true, without referencing
anything that is in the bible?
None. Our point exactly.
And my point is that it isn't fair to ask this. It IS fair to ask them to
show that the bible is good primary evidence, however.
But the bible is not good primary evidence, as there is nothing out side
of it to support it.
Which is begging the question.
No, it's a rather bland observation.
And it is fair to ask it. I'll ask it of any xtian, hindu, muslim,
wiccan, et al.
What that the Hindu should prove her religion without using the bible?
(sorry, couldn't resist..)
Nice.
You know exactly what I mean. Support your religion, with out using
your sacred text.
It not only is a fair question, but a valid test as well. So far, all
have failed.
Convince me that your faith is the right faith, without using your sacred
text. Prove to me that your god is real and fact, without using your
sacred text.
That's unfair. Nobody can do that, and nobody should be expected to do that.
However, if they are insisting that you agree with them that their religion
IS 'real and fact', it is more than fair to demand proof that the evidence
they base their religion upon, their scriptures, are 'true' first.
Why do you think that is? That nobody can do that? If you indeed do
have the one true faith, then you should be able to support it, and
demonstrate it, with out the use of sacred text.
I have a vast knowledge of computers, and can, with out text, cause
those machines to almost sing and dance when I want them to.
But the faithful, can not, under any conditions, support their faith
with out falling back on the mythical tales and stories of their sacred
text.
Then, of course, you can fight about whether your interpretation of that
scripture is right, so that the religion based upon it is 'true'. ;-)
But, take away the text, and the religion falls down, into a heap of
nothingness. So, however you want to interpret it, is worthless, with
out the text to begin with.
The problem with religion is, when you remove the book, it falls apart.
The problem with walking across a river is, if you remove the bridge, you
get wet. The thing is, first establish the bridge. THEN you can dicide if it
will support you.
Support you faith in your god, and your religion, with out using your
sacred text.
Oh, and I can swim, that usually help. ;-)
--
There are none more ignorant and useless,
than they that seek answers on their knees,
with their eyes closed.
____________________________________________________________________
Rev. Karl E. Taylor
A.A #1143 PLONKED by Bob
Apostle of Dr. Lao EAC: Virgin Conversion Unit Director
____________________________________________________________________
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