| Topic: |
Religions > Atheism |
| User: |
"Damien Stanton" |
| Date: |
25 Jun 2004 02:50:37 AM |
| Object: |
to clear things up: free will |
Hi Folks,
God can successfully predict every one of our actions decided by what is
from our perspective free will. The fact that God could know from the start
of the universe how the whole of time will pan out does not mean that from
our perspective we don't have free will. To say that you don't free will
because you cannot do anything other than what is determined by God is a
misunderstanding. You will not do anything else but what God already knows
you will do, but from your perspective you will have exercised free will.
Is this merely an illusion of free will and not actually bonafide free will?
There is no difference! Free will of a person could only ever be from the
perspective of that person. It doesn't matter whether there is some entity
somewhere that knows what your every move will be.
This topic has been done to death in universities - there really isn't
anything else to be said about it.
Damien
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| User: "Therion Ware" |
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| Title: Re: to clear things up: free will |
25 Jun 2004 03:14:16 AM |
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On Fri, 25 Jun 2004 15:50:37 +0800 in alt.atheism, Damien Stanton
("Damien Stanton" <stanton@hotmail.com>) said, directing the reply to
alt.atheism
Hi Folks,
God can successfully predict every one of our actions decided by what is
from our perspective free will. The fact that God could know from the start
of the universe how the whole of time will pan out does not mean that from
our perspective we don't have free will. To say that you don't free will
because you cannot do anything other than what is determined by God is a
misunderstanding. You will not do anything else but what God already knows
you will do, but from your perspective you will have exercised free will.
Is this merely an illusion of free will and not actually bonafide free will?
There is no difference! Free will of a person could only ever be from the
perspective of that person. It doesn't matter whether there is some entity
somewhere that knows what your every move will be.
So, suppose one day I meet God. He says to me "I have an emerald and
a ruby".
"That's interesting," I say.
God says, "You can choose either of them. If you choose the one I
think you're going to choose, you get nothing. But I'll let me ask me
one question before you choose".
"Uh huh," says I, and follow it up with "which stone do you think I'm
going to choose?"
God says "The ruby".
Can I then choose the diamond?
This topic has been done to death in universities
Well I never! Universities, eh? Makes you think...
- there really isn't
anything else to be said about it.
You're new around here, aren't you?
--
"Do Unto Others As You Would Have Them Do Unto You."
- Attrib: Pauline Reage.
Inexpensive VHS & other video to CD/DVD conversion?
See: <http://www.Video2CD.com>. 35.00 gets your video on DVD.
all posts to this email address are automatically deleted without being read.
** atheist poster child #1 ** #442.
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| User: "Damien Stanton" |
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| Title: Re: to clear things up: free will |
25 Jun 2004 06:02:36 AM |
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"Therion Ware" <autodelete@city-of-dis.com> wrote in message
news:o7nnd0pjap4ud5jrrhbog6i7fmranr60fa@4ax.com...
So, suppose one day I meet God. He says to me "I have an emerald and
a ruby".
"That's interesting," I say.
God says, "You can choose either of them. If you choose the one I
think you're going to choose, you get nothing. But I'll let me ask me
one question before you choose".
"Uh huh," says I, and follow it up with "which stone do you think I'm
going to choose?"
God says "The ruby".
Can I then choose the diamond?
From your perspective you will be choosing whatever you wanted to choose,
but it will be whatever God knew were going to choose.
Your example is one I've seen before on this group quite a while ago. The
answer is simple: you will choose whatever God knows you are going to
choose, but from your perspective you will have made free choice.
.
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| User: "Therion Ware" |
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| Title: Re: to clear things up: free will |
25 Jun 2004 07:30:17 AM |
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On Fri, 25 Jun 2004 19:02:36 +0800 in alt.atheism, Damien Stanton
("Damien Stanton" <stanton@hotmail.com>) said, directing the reply to
alt.atheism
"Therion Ware" <autodelete@city-of-dis.com> wrote in message
news:o7nnd0pjap4ud5jrrhbog6i7fmranr60fa@4ax.com...
So, suppose one day I meet God. He says to me "I have an emerald and
a ruby".
"That's interesting," I say.
God says, "You can choose either of them. If you choose the one I
think you're going to choose, you get nothing. But I'll let me ask me
one question before you choose".
"Uh huh," says I, and follow it up with "which stone do you think I'm
going to choose?"
God says "The ruby".
Can I then choose the diamond?
From your perspective you will be choosing whatever you wanted to choose,
but it will be whatever God knew were going to choose.
Your example is one I've seen before on this group quite a while ago. The
answer is simple: you will choose whatever God knows you are going to
choose, but from your perspective you will have made free choice.
Which is an answer, I suppose, if you (presumably freely) choose to
ignore the question.
God tells me I will choose "x".
Is it then possible for me to choose "y".
If not, why not?
--
"Do Unto Others As You Would Have Them Do Unto You."
- Attrib: Pauline Reage.
Inexpensive VHS & other video to CD/DVD conversion?
See: <http://www.Video2CD.com>. 35.00 gets your video on DVD.
all posts to this email address are automatically deleted without being read.
** atheist poster child #1 ** #442.
.
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| User: "Damien Stanton" |
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| Title: Re: to clear things up: free will |
25 Jun 2004 08:06:16 AM |
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"Therion Ware" <autodelete@city-of-dis.com> wrote in message
news:3u4od0l39am0tngei9l8f5tmpo8udk9s82@4ax.com...
From your perspective you will be choosing whatever you wanted to choose,
but it will be whatever God knew were going to choose.
Your example is one I've seen before on this group quite a while ago.
The
answer is simple: you will choose whatever God knows you are going to
choose, but from your perspective you will have made free choice.
Which is an answer, I suppose, if you (presumably freely) choose to
ignore the question.
God tells me I will choose "x".
Is it then possible for me to choose "y".
If not, why not?
From your perspective you can choose "y", but you won't choose "y".
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| User: "Therion Ware" |
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| Title: Re: to clear things up: free will |
25 Jun 2004 08:16:40 AM |
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On Fri, 25 Jun 2004 21:06:16 +0800 in alt.atheism, Damien Stanton
("Damien Stanton" <stanton@hotmail.com>) said, directing the reply to
alt.atheism
"Therion Ware" <autodelete@city-of-dis.com> wrote in message
news:3u4od0l39am0tngei9l8f5tmpo8udk9s82@4ax.com...
From your perspective you will be choosing whatever you wanted to choose,
but it will be whatever God knew were going to choose.
Your example is one I've seen before on this group quite a while ago.
The
answer is simple: you will choose whatever God knows you are going to
choose, but from your perspective you will have made free choice.
Which is an answer, I suppose, if you (presumably freely) choose to
ignore the question.
God tells me I will choose "x".
Is it then possible for me to choose "y".
If not, why not?
From your perspective you can choose "y", but you won't choose "y".
So you say. Why not, given that I've determined that I will?
--
"Do Unto Others As You Would Have Them Do Unto You."
- Attrib: Pauline Reage.
Inexpensive VHS & other video to CD/DVD conversion?
See: <http://www.Video2CD.com>. 35.00 gets your video on DVD.
all posts to this email address are automatically deleted without being read.
** atheist poster child #1 ** #442.
.
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| User: "Damien Stanton" |
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| Title: Re: to clear things up: free will |
27 Jun 2004 11:41:22 AM |
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"Therion Ware" <autodelete@city-of-dis.com> wrote in message
news:hb9od0dl47agkfi1p28km99jbet87rgor0@4ax.com...
God tells me I will choose "x".
Is it then possible for me to choose "y".
If not, why not?
From your perspective you can choose "y", but you won't choose "y".
So you say. Why not, given that I've determined that I will?
If you determine/choose that you will choose 'x' then that will be what God
knew/determined you were going to do.
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| User: "Therion Ware" |
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| Title: Re: to clear things up: free will |
27 Jun 2004 11:51:24 AM |
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On Mon, 28 Jun 2004 00:41:22 +0800 in alt.atheism, Damien Stanton
("Damien Stanton" <stanton@hotmail.com>) said, directing the reply to
alt.atheism
"Therion Ware" <autodelete@city-of-dis.com> wrote in message
news:hb9od0dl47agkfi1p28km99jbet87rgor0@4ax.com...
God tells me I will choose "x".
Is it then possible for me to choose "y".
If not, why not?
From your perspective you can choose "y", but you won't choose "y".
So you say. Why not, given that I've determined that I will?
If you determine/choose that you will choose 'x' then that will be what God
knew/determined you were going to do.
But what I'll choose will be the opposite of what God tells me I'll
choose. How then can God be correct with respect to what my choice
will be?
--
"Do Unto Others As You Would Have Them Do Unto You."
- Attrib: Pauline Reage.
Inexpensive VHS & other video to CD/DVD conversion?
See: <http://www.Video2CD.com>. 35.00 gets your video on DVD.
all posts to this email address are automatically deleted without being read.
** atheist poster child #1 ** #442.
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| User: "Damien Stanton" |
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| Title: Re: to clear things up: free will |
28 Jun 2004 01:40:54 AM |
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"Therion Ware" <autodelete@city-of-dis.com> wrote in message
news:5lutd05uodnla26vdgo4ncgpdsri5c46c8@4ax.com...
If you determine/choose that you will choose 'x' then that will be what
God
knew/determined you were going to do.
But what I'll choose will be the opposite of what God tells me I'll
choose. How then can God be correct with respect to what my choice
will be?
No it won't, you will choose what God tells you you'll choose, and you will
feel like you've chosen freely.
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| User: "Therion Ware" |
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| Title: Re: to clear things up: free will |
29 Jun 2004 12:12:37 AM |
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On Mon, 28 Jun 2004 14:40:54 +0800 in alt.atheism, Damien Stanton
("Damien Stanton" <stanton@hotmail.com>) said, directing the reply to
alt.atheism
"Therion Ware" <autodelete@city-of-dis.com> wrote in message
news:5lutd05uodnla26vdgo4ncgpdsri5c46c8@4ax.com...
If you determine/choose that you will choose 'x' then that will be what
God
knew/determined you were going to do.
But what I'll choose will be the opposite of what God tells me I'll
choose. How then can God be correct with respect to what my choice
will be?
No it won't, you will choose what God tells you you'll choose, and you will
feel like you've chosen freely.
Yes, I know that what you think. What I don't know is if you have some
kind of legitimate reason for thinking so.
I swear to God, as it were, this is like drawing teeth.... with a pair
of rusty pliers.
--
"Do Unto Others As You Would Have Them Do Unto You."
- Attrib: Pauline Reage.
Inexpensive VHS & other video to CD/DVD conversion?
See: <http://www.Video2CD.com>. 35.00 gets your video on DVD.
all posts to this email address are automatically deleted without being read.
** atheist poster child #1 ** #442.
.
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| User: "Abner Mintz" |
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| Title: Re: to clear things up: free will |
28 Jun 2004 09:08:55 AM |
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Damien Stanton <stanton@hotmail.com> wrote:
No it won't, you will choose what God tells you you'll choose,
and you will feel like you've chosen freely.
You will feel like you've chosen freely whether you want to
or not, as God pushes the little 'feel like you've chosen
freely' button and you snap to attention and say 'I am
glad I have only one life to do exactly as God says', then
slam your head repeatedly saying 'Quit it, quit it!'. *grins*
How does being forced to do exactly what God said you would do
*and* being forced to feel that you chose freely suddenly
mean that you have free will? It seems to indicate the
opposite, really - in your view of free will, not only do
we have no choice as to what to do ('you will choose what
God tells you you'll choose') but you don't even get a choice
about how you'll feel about it ('and you will feel like you've
chosen freely'). Your version of free will is more like
determinism than many determinists' views!
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| User: "Damien Stanton" |
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| Title: Re: to clear things up: free will |
28 Jun 2004 11:40:57 AM |
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"Abner Mintz" <abnermintz@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:1gg25nq.1145gwpc4l7ibN%abnermintz@earthlink.net...
Damien Stanton <stanton@hotmail.com> wrote:
No it won't, you will choose what God tells you you'll choose,
and you will feel like you've chosen freely.
You will feel like you've chosen freely whether you want to
or not, as God pushes the little 'feel like you've chosen
freely' button and you snap to attention and say 'I am
glad I have only one life to do exactly as God says', then
slam your head repeatedly saying 'Quit it, quit it!'. *grins*
How does being forced to do exactly what God said you would do
*and* being forced to feel that you chose freely suddenly
mean that you have free will? It seems to indicate the
opposite, really - in your view of free will, not only do
we have no choice as to what to do ('you will choose what
God tells you you'll choose') but you don't even get a choice
about how you'll feel about it ('and you will feel like you've
chosen freely'). Your version of free will is more like
determinism than many determinists' views!
You can't tell the difference between this 'forced' freedom and so-called
'real' freedom. Therefore there is no difference, they are the same thing
according to you. It doesn't matter what is going on from an external
perspective.
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| User: "Abner Mintz" |
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| Title: Re: to clear things up: free will |
28 Jun 2004 01:35:17 PM |
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"Abner Mintz" <abnermintz@earthlink.net> wrote:
How does being forced to do exactly what God said you would do
*and* being forced to feel that you chose freely suddenly
mean that you have free will? It seems to indicate the
opposite, really - in your view of free will, not only do
we have no choice as to what to do ('you will choose what
God tells you you'll choose') but you don't even get a choice
about how you'll feel about it ('and you will feel like you've
chosen freely'). Your version of free will is more like
determinism than many determinists' views!
Damien Stanton <stanton@hotmail.com> wrote:
You can't tell the difference between this 'forced' freedom
and so-called 'real' freedom. Therefore there is no difference,
they are the same thing according to you.
No, they are the same thing according to *you*, not me. I think that
objective reality has considerable importance. According to you,
if you cannot tell if you are eating sugar or a sugar substitute,
they are the same thing. As a chemist I can assure you that
a person's inability to tell two things apart does *not* make
them the same thing.
To anyone with a concern with truth, an inability to tell
free will from determinism does not make them the same thing.
I fully admit that I can't tell which is true; that does
not collapse their definitions into each other.
It doesn't matter what is going on from an external perspective.
It doesn't matter to *you* what is going on from an external
perspective; it has become quite clear that this perspective
is not shared by many other people to whom truth is quite
important and objective reality is not an irrelevancy.
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| User: "Thomas P." |
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| Title: Re: to clear things up: free will |
28 Jun 2004 02:19:58 PM |
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On Mon, 28 Jun 2004 14:40:54 +0800, "Damien Stanton"
<stanton@hotmail.com> wrote:
"Therion Ware" <autodelete@city-of-dis.com> wrote in message
news:5lutd05uodnla26vdgo4ncgpdsri5c46c8@4ax.com...
If you determine/choose that you will choose 'x' then that will be what
God
knew/determined you were going to do.
But what I'll choose will be the opposite of what God tells me I'll
choose. How then can God be correct with respect to what my choice
will be?
No it won't, you will choose what God tells you you'll choose, and you will
feel like you've chosen freely.
And, once again, how you feel about it will not change the reality of
it. If god determines your choice, your choice is not free, no matter
what you feel about it. I wonder if you are really as stupid as you
appear.
Thomas P.
None of the Emperor's clothes had been so successful before.
"But he has nothing on," said a little child.
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| User: "AnotherObserver®" |
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| Title: Re: to clear things up: free will |
25 Jun 2004 02:05:43 PM |
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Therion Ware <autodelete@city-of-dis.com> wrote:
On Fri, 25 Jun 2004 21:06:16 +0800 in alt.atheism, Damien Stanton
("Damien Stanton" <stanton@hotmail.com>) said, directing the reply to
alt.atheism
"Therion Ware" <autodelete@city-of-dis.com> wrote in message
news:3u4od0l39am0tngei9l8f5tmpo8udk9s82@4ax.com...
From your perspective you will be choosing whatever you wanted to choose,
but it will be whatever God knew were going to choose.
Your example is one I've seen before on this group quite a while ago.
The
answer is simple: you will choose whatever God knows you are going to
choose, but from your perspective you will have made free choice.
Which is an answer, I suppose, if you (presumably freely) choose to
ignore the question.
God tells me I will choose "x".
Is it then possible for me to choose "y".
If not, why not?
From your perspective you can choose "y", but you won't choose "y".
So you say. Why not, given that I've determined that I will?
GAWD knew that too!!
--
Davidwd a.a
~~~~~~~~~
HECK IS WHERE PEOPLE GO WHO DON'T BELIEVE IN GOSH!!
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| User: "Dan Lowe" |
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| Title: Re: to clear things up: free will |
25 Jun 2004 08:14:30 AM |
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Damien Stanton wrote:
"Therion Ware" <autodelete@city-of-dis.com> wrote in message
[...]
God tells me I will choose "x".
Is it then possible for me to choose "y".
If not, why not?
From your perspective you can choose "y", but you won't choose "y".
So free will does not exist to you. Fair enough. Free will exists to me,
and any gods do not.
Dan
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| User: "Damien Stanton" |
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| Title: Re: to clear things up: free will |
27 Jun 2004 11:56:01 AM |
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"Dan Lowe" <dan@deletethisbinlaid.com> wrote in message
news:SrWCc.53$B87.2@newsfe1-gui.server.ntli.net...
From your perspective you can choose "y", but you won't choose "y".
So free will does not exist to you. Fair enough. Free will exists to me,
and any gods do not.
If it's predetermined that you will choose 'y' then you are still choosing
'y'. It makes no difference to you.
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| User: "Dan Lowe" |
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| Title: Re: to clear things up: free will |
27 Jun 2004 02:07:33 PM |
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Damien Stanton wrote:
"Dan Lowe" <dan@deletethisbinlaid.com> wrote in message
news:SrWCc.53$B87.2@newsfe1-gui.server.ntli.net...
From your perspective you can choose "y", but you won't choose "y".
So free will does not exist to you. Fair enough. Free will exists to me,
and any gods do not.
If it's predetermined that you will choose 'y' then you are still choosing
'y'. It makes no difference to you.
No need to repeat yourself, I see what you're saying, It's just what
your saying is rubbish to me.
You see you're convinced that there's a god, and free-will somehow has
to fit in with this world view. Me, on the other hand, is not convinced
in the slightest that there's a god, so I don't need to come up with bs
reasons as to why x can work with god, when infact the two are mutually
exclusive.
Sometimes evidence points to a conclusion that you neither want, nor can
deny. Your god doesn't exist(at least not how you want it to), I'm sorry.
Dan
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| User: "Damien Stanton" |
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| Title: Re: to clear things up: free will |
28 Jun 2004 02:34:29 AM |
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"Dan Lowe" <dan@deletethisbinlaid.com> wrote in message
news:0OFDc.918$9t5.3@newsfe1-win...
If it's predetermined that you will choose 'y' then you are still
choosing
'y'. It makes no difference to you.
No need to repeat yourself, I see what you're saying, It's just what
your saying is rubbish to me.
You see you're convinced that there's a god, and free-will somehow has
to fit in with this world view. Me, on the other hand, is not convinced
in the slightest that there's a god, so I don't need to come up with bs
reasons as to why x can work with god, when infact the two are mutually
exclusive.
My argument would apply if there were no God. I'm saying that things could
be predetermined from the start of time, and you would still be freely
choosing from your point of view.
Sometimes evidence points to a conclusion that you neither want, nor can
deny. Your god doesn't exist(at least not how you want it to), I'm sorry.
Dan
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| User: "Thomas P." |
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| Title: Re: to clear things up: free will |
28 Jun 2004 02:19:59 PM |
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On Mon, 28 Jun 2004 15:34:29 +0800, "Damien Stanton"
<stanton@hotmail.com> wrote:
"Dan Lowe" <dan@deletethisbinlaid.com> wrote in message
news:0OFDc.918$9t5.3@newsfe1-win...
If it's predetermined that you will choose 'y' then you are still
choosing
'y'. It makes no difference to you.
No need to repeat yourself, I see what you're saying, It's just what
your saying is rubbish to me.
You see you're convinced that there's a god, and free-will somehow has
to fit in with this world view. Me, on the other hand, is not convinced
in the slightest that there's a god, so I don't need to come up with bs
reasons as to why x can work with god, when infact the two are mutually
exclusive.
My argument would apply if there were no God. I'm saying that things could
be predetermined from the start of time, and you would still be freely
choosing from your point of view.
You have presented no argument explaining how that could be possible.
You merely keep repeating it. It remains nonsense no matter how many
times you repeat it.
Thomas P.
None of the Emperor's clothes had been so successful before.
"But he has nothing on," said a little child.
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| User: "Apostate" |
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| Title: Re: to clear things up: free will |
27 Jun 2004 02:51:23 PM |
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On Sun, 27 Jun 2004 20:07:33 +0100, Dan Lowe <dan@deletethisbinlaid.com> wrote in alt.atheism:
Sometimes evidence points to a conclusion that you neither want, nor can
deny. Your god doesn't exist(at least not how you want it to), I'm sorry.
Dan
Hell, I'm not.
It was a waking nightmare, believing in that monster god from hell.
--
/Apostate
atheist #(e^7.5657933) I've found it!
BAAWA Knife AND SMASHer
EAC Supernumerary Deputy Director, Department of Redundancy Department
plonked by Lani_girl, first post; billions served!
I doubt, therefore I might be.
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| User: "Thomas P." |
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| Title: Re: to clear things up: free will |
28 Jun 2004 02:34:07 AM |
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On Sun, 27 Jun 2004 15:51:23 -0400, Apostate
<Apostate.invalid@yeehaw.org> wrote:
On Sun, 27 Jun 2004 20:07:33 +0100, Dan Lowe <dan@deletethisbinlaid.com> wrote in alt.atheism:
Sometimes evidence points to a conclusion that you neither want, nor can
deny. Your god doesn't exist(at least not how you want it to), I'm sorry.
Dan
Hell, I'm not.
It was a waking nightmare, believing in that monster god from hell.
Getting rid of that much cognitive dissonance was an incredible relief
in itself.
Thomas P.
None of the Emperor's clothes had been so successful before.
"But he has nothing on," said a little child.
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| User: "Holden" |
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| Title: Re: to clear things up: free will |
25 Jun 2004 02:30:42 PM |
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Damien Stanton wrote:
"Therion Ware" <autodelete@city-of-dis.com> wrote in message
news:3u4od0l39am0tngei9l8f5tmpo8udk9s82@4ax.com...
From your perspective you will be choosing whatever you wanted to
choose, but it will be whatever God knew were going to choose.
Your example is one I've seen before on this group quite a while
ago. The answer is simple: you will choose whatever God knows you
are going to choose, but from your perspective you will have made
free choice.
Which is an answer, I suppose, if you (presumably freely) choose to
ignore the question.
God tells me I will choose "x".
Is it then possible for me to choose "y".
If not, why not?
From your perspective you can choose "y", but you won't choose "y".
Free will in this instance can be defined as the ability to choose "y"
regardless :)
The mere fact that you state that he will not choose "y" when he *wants* to
choose "y" is proof that his will is not free of outside influence.
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| User: "Damien Stanton" |
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| Title: Re: to clear things up: free will |
25 Jun 2004 10:44:53 PM |
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"Holden" <nothx@ihatespam.com> wrote in message
news:2k3cr6F183dpvU1@uni-berlin.de...
From your perspective you can choose "y", but you won't choose "y".
Free will in this instance can be defined as the ability to choose "y"
regardless :)
The mere fact that you state that he will not choose "y" when he *wants*
to
choose "y" is proof that his will is not free of outside influence.
Everyone is subject to outside influences, and ulimately everyone's
decisions could be described by interactions particles(or whatever) in the
universe, but from the perspective of the person he is making a free choice
in the matter.
.
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| User: "Thomas P." |
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| Title: Re: to clear things up: free will |
26 Jun 2004 02:50:21 AM |
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On Sat, 26 Jun 2004 11:44:53 +0800, "Damien Stanton"
<stanton@hotmail.com> wrote:
"Holden" <nothx@ihatespam.com> wrote in message
news:2k3cr6F183dpvU1@uni-berlin.de...
From your perspective you can choose "y", but you won't choose "y".
Free will in this instance can be defined as the ability to choose "y"
regardless :)
The mere fact that you state that he will not choose "y" when he *wants*
to
choose "y" is proof that his will is not free of outside influence.
Everyone is subject to outside influences, and ulimately everyone's
decisions could be described by interactions particles(or whatever) in the
universe, but from the perspective of the person he is making a free choice
in the matter.
Are you ever going to explain what difference perspective makes?
Thomas P.
None of the Emperor's clothes had been so successful before.
"But he has nothing on," said a little child.
.
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| User: "Damien Stanton" |
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| Title: Re: to clear things up: free will |
26 Jun 2004 08:27:17 AM |
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Thomas P." <thomasagainspam@yahoo.dk> wrote in message
news:acaqd0dfvj88mtskqsjl71dtqgeddnvuuq@4ax.com...
Everyone is subject to outside influences, and ulimately everyone's
decisions could be described by interactions particles(or whatever) in
the
universe, but from the perspective of the person he is making a free
choice
in the matter.
Are you ever going to explain what difference perspective makes?
From God's perspective the whole universe can be predicted from the Big
Bang, but from your persepctive you don't know what happens next and you
also think that you are making choices about what you will do next.
.
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| User: "Jez" |
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| Title: Re: to clear things up: free will |
26 Jun 2004 09:39:30 AM |
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"Damien Stanton" <stanton@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:40dd79ae$0$24770$5a62ac22@per-qv1-newsreader-01.iinet.net.au...
Thomas P." <thomasagainspam@yahoo.dk> wrote in message
news:acaqd0dfvj88mtskqsjl71dtqgeddnvuuq@4ax.com...
Everyone is subject to outside influences, and ulimately everyone's
decisions could be described by interactions particles(or whatever) in
the
universe, but from the perspective of the person he is making a free
choice
in the matter.
Are you ever going to explain what difference perspective makes?
From God's perspective the whole universe can be predicted from the Big
Bang, but from your persepctive you don't know what happens next and you
also think that you are making choices about what you will do next.
That would be fine....apart from one small detail...
'God' does not exist.
I know it's only a small point, but it should be mentioned.
--
Jez
"The condition of alienation, of being asleep, of being unconscious,
of being out of one's mind, is the condition of the normal man. Society
highly values its normal man.It educates children to lose themselves
and to become absurd,and thus to be normal. Normal men have killed
perhaps 100,000,000 of their fellow normal men in the last fifty years."
R.D. Laing
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| User: "Thomas P." |
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| Title: Re: to clear things up: free will |
26 Jun 2004 01:53:33 PM |
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On Sat, 26 Jun 2004 21:27:17 +0800, "Damien Stanton"
<stanton@hotmail.com> wrote:
Thomas P." <thomasagainspam@yahoo.dk> wrote in message
news:acaqd0dfvj88mtskqsjl71dtqgeddnvuuq@4ax.com...
Everyone is subject to outside influences, and ulimately everyone's
decisions could be described by interactions particles(or whatever) in
the
universe, but from the perspective of the person he is making a free
choice
in the matter.
Are you ever going to explain what difference perspective makes?
From God's perspective the whole universe can be predicted from the Big
Bang, but from your persepctive you don't know what happens next and you
also think that you are making choices about what you will do next.
Yes, you have repeated this many times now. What you have not done is
explain what difference perspective makes. You are babbling
nonsense.
Thomas P.
None of the Emperor's clothes had been so successful before.
"But he has nothing on," said a little child.
.
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| User: "Damien Stanton" |
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| Title: Re: to clear things up: free will |
27 Jun 2004 12:43:33 AM |
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"Thomas P." <thomasagainspam@yahoo.dk> wrote in message
news:gifrd0du3nfatc0ra62db106dk32s1qt83@4ax.com...
From God's perspective the whole universe can be predicted from the Big
Bang, but from your persepctive you don't know what happens next and you
also think that you are making choices about what you will do next.
Yes, you have repeated this many times now. What you have not done is
explain what difference perspective makes. You are babbling
nonsense.
I can't really explain it, it's just obvious. Perspective changes the way
you intepret things. From my perspective I am making choices, but from an
external perspective I could be merely beholden to physical effects etc.
.
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| User: "Thomas P." |
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| Title: Re: to clear things up: free will |
27 Jun 2004 03:34:49 AM |
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On Sun, 27 Jun 2004 13:43:33 +0800, "Damien Stanton"
<stanton@hotmail.com> wrote:
"Thomas P." <thomasagainspam@yahoo.dk> wrote in message
news:gifrd0du3nfatc0ra62db106dk32s1qt83@4ax.com...
From God's perspective the whole universe can be predicted from the Big
Bang, but from your persepctive you don't know what happens next and you
also think that you are making choices about what you will do next.
Yes, you have repeated this many times now. What you have not done is
explain what difference perspective makes. You are babbling
nonsense.
I can't really explain it, it's just obvious. Perspective changes the way
you intepret things. From my perspective I am making choices, but from an
external perspective I could be merely beholden to physical effects etc.
How you explain things has nothing to do with how things are. You
cannot explain what you are saying, because it makes no sense.
Thomas P.
None of the Emperor's clothes had been so successful before.
"But he has nothing on," said a little child.
.
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| User: "Jos Flachs" |
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| Title: Re: to clear things up: free will |
27 Jun 2004 06:41:24 AM |
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On Sun, 27 Jun 2004 13:43:33 +0800, "Damien Stanton"
<stanton@hotmail.com> wrote:
"Thomas P." <thomasagainspam@yahoo.dk> wrote in message
news:gifrd0du3nfatc0ra62db106dk32s1qt83@4ax.com...
From God's perspective the whole universe can be predicted from the Big
Bang, but from your persepctive you don't know what happens next and you
also think that you are making choices about what you will do next.
Yes, you have repeated this many times now. What you have not done is
explain what difference perspective makes. You are babbling
nonsense.
I can't really explain it, it's just obvious. Perspective changes the way
you intepret things. From my perspective I am making choices, but from an
external perspective I could be merely beholden to physical effects etc.
Which would, from an objective point of view, invalidate free will.
.
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