Religions > Atheism > To do before Nov. 7: Compare Jefferson's Christianity with the religious right
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To do before Nov. 7: Compare Jefferson's Christianity with the religious right |
Not Originally posted by me. However the original poster asked that it be
sent on so I am sending it on
To do before Nov. 7: Compare Jefferson's Christianity with the religious
right
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alt.politics,alt.politics.liberalism,alt.politics.usa.constitution,alt.politics.homosexuality,soc.motss
Subject: To do before Nov. 7: Compare Jefferson's Christianity with the
religious right
Date: 22 Aug 2006 13:05:50 -0700
To do before Nov. 7: Compare Jefferson's
Christianity with the religious right
or
How to challenge the religious right
with Jesus and Jefferson
This letter is ultimately about Thomas Jefferson and his religion.
Probably about 6 out of 7 Americans will find his ideas too
controversial to discuss openly. We are talking about the man who
wrote the Declaration of Independence - too controversial for Americans
to discuss. If you can't agree with the ideas of this letter, please
have the decency, the good citizenship, to email it on for others to
consider.
We have an election coming up in November. We have proposals to change
the Constitution in six states: WI, SC, TN, VA, SD, and ID. Had it not
required a two thirds majority vote, the current congress would have
already passed a resolution to change the U.S. Constitution. We are at
war in Iraq with no end in sight. Religion is at the heart of American
politics right now, and in the heart of our president. But is it the
religion that America was founded on? Certainly, the founding fathers
had a Christian heritage. Politicians, especially Democrats, are
afraid to talk about it. The future of our country is what is being
decided on Nov. 7, 2006. A little wisdom from Thomas Jefferson might
guide us onto the right path. Thomas Jefferson's path for America.
Ask Americans if Thomas Jefferson was a great man and they will say,
"You bet." That's why he is on the nickel in our pocket, engraved on
Mt. Rushmore, and has a street named after him in about every other
town in America. Ask Americans what was Thomas Jefferson's church and
what would he think about the political influence of the religious
right in America today? You will probably get blank stares, or
completely wrong answers. That is the purpose of this letter, to teach
us about the man we think we know, and the wide variation of belief
among Christian churches in America. It begins with an excerpt from a
Wisconsin newspaper internet forum.
"Jesus, Homosexuality and The Marriage
Amendment: Which Church is Right?"
an OnWisconsin.com forum hosted by
the Milwaukee Journal Sentinel
http://www2.jsonline.com/idealbb/view.asp?topicID=36703&forumID=60&catID=17
···························································
The Golden Rule
All things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so
to them...
Matthew 7:12
--------------------------------
"The Golden Rule means use your heart. Use your ability to feel. You
know your own feelings. You should imagine the feelings of others too."
--------------------------------
"... When faced with a moral dilemma, I struggle in my mind to feel
both sides. We face a moral dilemma right now in Wisconsin, and also in
the U.S. It has brought back a long past experience for me. I have been
trying recently to imagine the feelings of a schoolmate who committed
suicide when I was 16. I didn't know him. He hadn't a friend, to my
knowledge. How did he feel in those final weeks? Those final hours? Was
it because we called him a homosexual? Was it because he was a
homosexual? Who was the sinner? "
-T.J. (a Golden Rule Christian, from a debate with TreeGo, a Born
Again Christian)
then later in the debate, another quote from T.J.,
challenging the wisdom of unquestioned faith
in hand-me-down texts.
"I have some sacred texts of my own. But I know exactly who wrote
them, when, and for what occasion." ...
All, too, will bear in mind this sacred principle, that though the will
of the majority is in all cases to prevail, that will, to be rightful,
must be reasonable; that the minority possess their equal rights, which
equal laws must protect, and to violate which would be oppression.
- Thomas Jefferson, Mar. 4, 1801
first inaugural address
···························································
help TJ spread his message, same link, download a free flier
especially important in WI, SD, TN, ID, VA and SC
http://www2.jsonline.com/idealbb/view.asp?topicID=36703&forumID=60&catID=17
from Jean
THE ACTUAL FLYER MENTIONED IN THIS ARTICLE
http://www2.jsonline.com/idealbb/files/TJsNickel_4.pdf
------------------ End of Part I -----------------
Part II:. How to challenge the religious right with Jesus and Jefferson
The tough question about homosexuality, and a tough to swallow
Christian answer.
Rose, a good caring Christian with not a hint
of prejudice in her words, wrote back a long
letter. The bottom line came down to these two
troubling verses: The same verses that must
be troubling millions of Christians in America.
*Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with
womankind: it is abomination.*
Leviticus 18:22.
*If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth
with a woman, both of them have committed
an abomination: they shall surely be put to
death; their blood shall be upon them.*
Leviticus 20:13.
Just because Jesus didn't say anything
about homosexuality, doesn't mean
that the bible doesn't.
How do YOU deal with this scripture in
Leviticus?
my reply to Rose follows to the end
It's hard to write this, knowing so many will be
opposed, but it's equally hard to silently watch
people be cruely hurt. The last page of TJs flier
gives an option for Christians who believe as
Thomas Jefferson does. Belief is a choice,
I hope Jefferson's belief catches on.
- Jean
There is a theory of evolution that fundamentalist Christians refuse to
accept
because it is JUST A THEORY, never proven.
There is theory of the infallible Bible that is also just a theory,
never proven.
That's how I deal with this scripture in Leviticus.
The only way that we know Leviticus is the will of God is to believe
it. There is not one scrap of evidence outside of the Bible to show
this is true. Some guy comes up to you and says he heard a voice
talking to him from a burning bush today, we put him in a padded cell.
Somebody makes the same claim 2500-3000 years ago, and we believe it
because people in vestments at an altar tell us to believe it, not
because it makes any kind of sense at all. Are we willing to believe
God wants us to kill people for being gay on that kind of evidence?
Not good enough for me. People who believe something that flaky are
the same kind of folks who go around killing each other over religion
in the middle east every day. What it says in the Bible still has to
be judged against common sense. Every book is a human book.
Most people go to church because they want to be good. They want
advice and direction on how to be good. When you read something cruel
or senseless (try reading Leviticus all the way through, it is not the
story of a loving God). You have to say "wait a minute" is that coming
from God or human beings pretending to know God? Who picked the pages
and stories that got printed in this book?
The answer to who picked the pages and stories? Human beings of course.
Human beings who "thought" they knew the mind of God. We have every
right to question these human beings. Many people don't. Many people
just want life to be simple, so they believe all the answers are in one
perfect book. I don't believe that anymore. I stopped believing that
about the same time I stopped believing in Santa Claus. I found out
Santa was a tall tale based on the life of a real person named St.
Nikolaus, a Greek Bishop born about 300 years later than Christ. Over
time the original story of St. Nikolaus the good man, became an almost
completely make believe story of the immortal Santa Claus. A tale told
to trick children into being good to get a reward. Now that I'm grown
up, I don't need to be tricked into being good. I want to do good to
make the world a kinder, safer place for everyone. For myself, my
children and my neighbors, others too if I can manage it. There is
something in it for all of us. I am not being good just to get a reward
for selfish little me, not to get a new dolly from Santa at Christmas,
not to earn a place in Heaven with Jesus when I die.
I believe in Jesus... I think he was a real person who taught values
and tried to make the world where he lived a kinder and better place.
I don't think he died on the cross for my sins. I think he died on the
cross because he was getting too popular and encouraging Jews to resist
Roman occupation of the Jewish Temple and lands. That would explain
why Pilate wrote on the cross... "King of the Jews" Matthew 27:37,
Mark 15:26, Luke 23:38 and John 19:19. The message on the cross was a
Roman warning not to resist: a graphic way of saying... "This is what
happens when you choose your own leader." The Bible we have today was
put together hundreds of years after Jesus died. The writing on the
cross is one of the last bits about Jesus that is consistent from one
source to the next. People could make up any story they wanted about
Jesus after he was dead. Remember all those Elvis sightings in the
70's and 80's? I don't think the world was any different right after
Jesus died. People make up stories about celebrities and they get
passed along. People who were devoted followers of Jesus had hoped for
the day when Jesus would throw the Romans out. They were in shock
following the crucifixion. "This can't be true." "He can't be dead."
"His crucifixion was only the beginning." "He's coming back." "He's
coming back real soon and in the second coming he will be King."
Whether the King was Jesus or the King was Elvis, fanatic fans of
celebrities can't let go.
It has been 2000 years since Jesus was crucified... there are no longer
Romans to defeat. Jesus hasn't come back. All that has happened is his
life has been turned into a legend. So many claims have been made
about Jesus that you have to look at lots of different stories and
compare them in order to sift out what is probably the truth. For over
a thousand years there were only four stories to compare: Matthew,
Mark, Luke and John, plus stories about those stories... the rest of
the New Testament. In 1945 a pottery jar with a different story about
Jesus was found by an Arab farmer digging at the base of a cliff near
the Dead Sea. Everything changed... we have a fifth story. A story
that was absolutely frozen in time from the day it was buried until the
modern age of cameras. A snapshot deep into the past.
Archeologists who have studied the Dead Sea site now think the jar was
one of several used as a temporary way to stash precious documents for
safe keeping, but the jars were lost or the people who buried them
never came back. The reason? They were fleeing from a war with the
Romans. The war in which the Temple in Jerusalem was burned and
reduced to the ruins that remain today. The date was about 65 years
after the crucifixion of Jesus. The jars contained many pages from the
Old Testament plus a long story about the life of Jesus that didn't say
anything about a single miracle. He was a good man. An example worth
remembering, who taught morality to his people. Not the son of God,
never walked on water, never performed any miracles, just tried to
teach people to treat other people better. It's called the Gospel of
Thomas... I read a fascinating story about it on the internet.
http://www.mindfully.org/Reform/2005/Jesus-Without-Miracles1dec05.htm
Just last week (Aug. 2006) the story was in the news again, Israeli
archeologists Yizhak Magen and Yuval Peleg discussing their newest
archeological evidence from the site where the Gospel of Thomas was
found.
A Jesus who performed no miracles is the Jesus I believe in. But there
aren't any preachers teaching that Jesus. So it hasn't caught on. Now
here's what is amazing. Thomas Jefferson believed in the same story of
Jesus. No miracles, just an influential teacher with the best morality
ever taught. If we believe in that Jesus. Does it mean we can't call
ourselves Christians? Thomas Jefferson said he was a Christian, that
Christianity was at its heart practicing the morality of Jesus. The
miracles were an "artificial scaffolding" that added nothing of value
to Christianity. As was the ancient saga of the Old Testament. He
believed the true message of Jesus would endure as advancing scientific
knowledge stripped away the scaffolding. Jefferson reached this
conclusion after reading the scriptures in English, French, Greek and
Latin. He was an incredibly intelligent person. He hadn't seen the
Gospel of Thomas. The theory of evolution hadn't even been proposed.
Jefferson read the Bible and he saw right through it. I trust
Jefferson. What he says matches what makes sense in my own mind. It
isn't just what Jefferson believed that I admire. It's what he did
with his beliefs... he founded a great nation. A nation of Liberty,
where government could no longer claim anyone's holy book as a basis
for laws. Laws were to be written to protect the people, not to
oppress, not to please some people's Gods. Have we forgotten that? I
think we have.
If you believe Jesus was sent by God, as his own son, to die on the
cross for your sins, you will always have, in your lifetime, a big
crowd who share your beliefs. And it will be a big crowd of caring
people going to the best church they can find. I've got nothing against
them or you. I do think it is sad and tragic when people who are
attracted to Jesus end up citing verses from Leviticus without reading
the entire book of Leviticus and thinking about who wrote it.
Leviticus is cruel and demeaning to women, and as compassionless as the
darkest bigot in its ignorant treatment of homosexuality. I don't
believe the Book of Leviticus represents any god I am willing to
worship. Ditto with the Book of Job. God kills Job's servants and ten
of Job's children to win a bet with Satan, then lets Job's wife churn
out ten more children to make it better? I will not worship a god who
commits mass murder.
I don't think the Old Testament and story of Jesus belong in the same
binding. These are two different versions of God, from two different
ages, slapped together to get people to convert from one belief to the
other. The Mormon's have done the same thing since 1830. Slapping
their book of Mormon onto the end of the New Testament and trying to
convert believers in Jesus to their new church. We don't have to
understand ancient history... religions transform from one belief to
the next right before our eyes. The question is, are American's going
to go back to the Christianity of the Middle Ages? Absolute faith in
the Bible. Punish or kill anyone who disagrees. Teach children not to
believe in science but always believe every word of scripture. That's
the growing trend in the U.S. We are electing government officials who
support this trend. Fundamentalist home schooling is teaching children
to vote for more Old Testament, less science. Televangelists are taking
in millions with the same message on T.V. and passing the cash on to
their favored political causes. Is this what America is going to
become, a dogma dominated, intolerant nation that is the very opposite
of Thomas Jefferson's plan laid out in the Declaration of Independence?
Or are we going to open our minds, wake up to the world of new
discoveries since the Bible was written, and make the best world
possible building upon the example Jesus laid out for us so many years
ago?
That's a long answer to a short question about two verses in the Bible.
You have just read the definition of a liberal Christian. Liberal as
in Liberty. These are the reasons for my beliefs. We each have our own
reasons for our beliefs. I don't want to put people down, but I
suppose just saying what I believe comes across that way. The only
other choice is to say nothing and remain silent while America wanders
farther from the dream of Jefferson. I'm almost alone in my beliefs.
Unitarians are liberal Christians, but there are very few of them. It's
not an acceptable church in most small towns. Thomas Jefferson was a
liberal Christian, also called a Golden Rule Christian. His beliefs are
given in his own words in the flier by T.J. in the Milwaukee Journal
Sentinel forum. If you are an average American, you are probably a nice
person who believes in Jesus because you want to do good in your life.
That category fits the majority of Americans. I know I said a lot that
is the opposite of what you learn from your church. I'm sharing one
minority belief, but its not a new belief. It's the belief that was in
Jefferson's heart when he wrote our Declaration of Independence. I
believe it too, with all my heart. I've had no intention to say
anything hurtful. I'm sorry if I could not find kinder words make this
belief less controversial.
Best Wishes
Jean
Gospel of Thomas article:
http://www.mindfully.org/Reform/2005/Jesus-Without-Miracles1dec05.htm
the Milwaukee Journal Sentinel forum, with TJs Golden Rule Christian
flier
http://www2.jsonline.com/idealbb/view.asp?topicID=36703&forumID=60&catID=17
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