To Regret Religion Is To Regret Western Civilization

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Topic:	Religions > Atheism
User:	"Sound of Trumpet"
Date:	29 Nov 2007 03:28:58 AM
Object:	To Regret Religion Is To Regret Western Civilization

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-religion/1932066/posts
What the New Atheists Don't See, To regret religion is to regret
Western civilization
cerc ^ | 2007 | THEODORE DALRYMPLE
Posted on 11/28/2007 7:54:23 PM PST by Coleus
The British parliament's first avowedly atheist member, Charles
Bradlaugh, would stride into public meetings in the 1880s, take out
his pocket watch, and challenge God to strike him dead in 60 seconds.
God bided his time, but got Bradlaugh in the end. A slightly later
atheist, Bertrand Russell, was once asked what he would do if it
proved that he was mistaken and if he met his maker in the hereafter.
He would demand to know, Russell replied with all the high-pitched
fervor of his pedantry, why God had not made the evidence of his
existence plainer and more irrefutable. And Jean-Paul Sartre came up
with a memorable line: "God doesn't exist -- the *****!"
Sartre's wonderful outburst of disappointed rage suggests that it is
not as easy as one might suppose to rid oneself of the notion of God.
(Perhaps this is the time to declare that I am not myself a believer.)
At the very least, Sartre's line implies that God's existence would
solve some kind of problem -- actually, a profound one: the
transcendent purpose of human existence. Few of us, especially as we
grow older, are entirely comfortable with the idea that life is full
of sound and fury but signifies nothing. However much philosophers
tell us that it is illogical to fear death, and that at worst it is
only the process of dying that we should fear, people still fear death
as much as ever. In like fashion, however many times philosophers say
that it is up to us ourselves, and to no one else, to find the meaning
of life, we continue to long for a transcendent purpose immanent in
existence itself, independent of our own wills. To tell us that we
should not feel this longing is a bit like telling someone in the
first flush of love that the object of his affections is not worthy of
them. The heart hath its reasons that reason knows not of.
Of course, men -- that is to say, some men -- have denied this truth
ever since the Enlightenment, and have sought to find a way of life
based entirely on reason. Far as I am from decrying reason, the
attempt leads at best to Gradgrind and at worst to Stalin. Reason can
never be the absolute dictator of man's mental or moral economy.
The search for the pure guiding light of reason, uncontaminated by
human passion or metaphysical principles that go beyond all possible
evidence, continues, however; and recently, an epidemic rash of books
has declared success, at least if success consists of having slain the
inveterate enemy of reason, namely religion. The philosophers Daniel
Dennett, A. C. Grayling, Michel Onfray, and Sam Harris, biologist
Richard Dawkins, and journalist and critic Christopher Hitchens have
all written books roundly condemning religion and its works.
Evidently, there is a tide in the affairs, if not of men, at least of
authors.
The curious thing about these books is that the authors often appear
to think that they are saying something new and brave.
The curious thing about these books is that the authors often appear
to think that they are saying something new and brave. They imagine
themselves to be like the intrepid explorer Sir Richard Burton, who in
1853 disguised himself as a Muslim merchant, went to Mecca, and then
wrote a book about his unprecedented feat. The public appears to
agree, for the neo-atheist books have sold by the hundred thousand.
Yet with the possible exception of Dennett's, they advance no argument
that I, the village atheist, could not have made by the age of 14
(Saint Anselm's ontological argument for God's existence gave me the
greatest difficulty, but I had taken Hume to heart on the weakness of
the argument from design).
I first doubted God's existence at about the age of nine. It was at
the school assembly that I lost my faith. We had been given to
understand that if we opened our eyes during prayers God would depart
the assembly hall. I wanted to test this hypothesis. Surely, if I
opened my eyes suddenly, I would glimpse the fleeing God? What I saw
instead, it turned out, was the headmaster, Mr. Clinton, intoning the
prayer with one eye closed and the other open, with which he beadily
surveyed the children below for transgressions. I quickly concluded
that Mr. Clinton did not believe what he said about the need to keep
our eyes shut. And if he did not believe that, why should I believe in
his God? In such illogical leaps do our beliefs often originate, to be
disciplined later in life (if we receive enough education) by
elaborate rationalization.
Dennett's Breaking the Spell is the least bad-tempered of the new
atheist books, but it is deeply condescending to all religious people.
Dennett argues that religion is explicable in evolutionary terms -- for
example, by our inborn human propensity, at one time valuable for our
survival on the African savannahs, to attribute animate agency to
threatening events.
For Dennett, to prove the biological origin of belief in God is to
show its irrationality, to break its spell. But of course it is a
necessary part of the argument that all possible human beliefs,
including belief in evolution, must be explicable in precisely the
same way; or else why single out religion for this treatment? Either
we test ideas according to arguments in their favor, independent of
their origins, thus making the argument from evolution irrelevant, or
all possible beliefs come under the same suspicion of being only
evolutionary adaptations -- and thus biologically contingent rather
than true or false. We find ourselves facing a version of the paradox
of the Cretan liar: all beliefs, including this one, are the products
of evolution, and all beliefs that are products of evolution cannot be
known to be true.
One striking aspect of Dennett's book is his failure to avoid the
language of purpose, intention, and ontological moral evaluation,
despite his fierce opposition to teleological views of existence
One striking aspect of Dennett's book is his failure to avoid the
language of purpose, intention, and ontological moral evaluation,
despite his fierce opposition to teleological views of existence: the
coyote's "methods of locomotion have been ruthlessly optimized for
efficiency." Or: "The stinginess of Nature can be seen everywhere we
look." Or again: "This is a good example of Mother Nature's stinginess
in the final accounting combined with absurd profligacy in the
methods." I could go on, but I hope the point is clear. (And Dennett
is not alone in this difficulty: Michel Onfray's Atheist Manifesto, so
rich in errors and inexactitudes that it would take a book as long as
his to correct them, says on its second page that religion prevents
mankind from facing up to "reality in all its naked cruelty." But how
can reality have any moral quality without having an immanent or
transcendent purpose?)
No doubt Dennett would reply that he is writing in metaphors for the
layman and that he could translate all his statements into a language
without either moral evaluation or purpose included in it. Perhaps he
would argue that his language is evidence that the spell still has a
hold over even him, the breaker of the spell for the rest of humanity.
But I am not sure that this response would be psychologically
accurate. I think Dennett's use of the language of evaluation and
purpose is evidence of a deep-seated metaphysical belief (however
caused) that Providence exists in the universe, a belief that few
people, confronted by the mystery of beauty and of existence itself,
escape entirely. At any rate, it ill behooves Dennett to condescend to
those poor primitives who still have a religious or providential view
of the world: a view that, at base, is no more refutable than
Dennett's metaphysical faith in evolution.
Dennett is not the only new atheist to employ religious language. In
The God Delusion, Richard Dawkins quotes with approval a new set of
Ten Commandments for atheists, which he obtained from an atheist
website, without considering odd the idea that atheists require
commandments at all, let alone precisely ten of them; nor does their
metaphysical status seem to worry him. The last of the atheist's Ten
Commandments ends with the following: "Question everything."
Everything? Including the need to question everything, and so on ad
infinitum?
Not to belabor the point, but if I questioned whether George
Washington died in 1799, I could spend a lifetime trying to prove it
and find myself still, at the end of my efforts, having to make a
leap, or perhaps several leaps, of faith in order to believe the
rather banal fact that I had set out to prove. Metaphysics is like
nature: though you throw it out with a pitchfork, yet it always
returns. What is confounded here is surely the abstract right to
question everything with the actual exercise of that right on all
possible occasions. Anyone who did exercise his right on all possible
occasions would wind up a short-lived fool.
For Harris, the most important question about genocide would seem to
be: "Who is genociding whom?" To adapt Dostoyevsky slightly, starting
from universal reason, I arrive at universal madness.
This sloppiness and lack of intellectual scruple, with the assumption
of certainty where there is none, combined with adolescent shrillness
and intolerance, reach an apogee in Sam Harris's book The End of
Faith. It is not easy to do justice to the book's nastiness; it makes
Dawkins's claim that religious education constitutes child abuse look
sane and moderate.
Harris tells us, for example, that "we must find our way to a time
when faith, without evidence, disgraces anyone who would claim it.
Given the present state of the world, there appears to be no other
future worth wanting." I am glad that I am old enough that I shall not
see the future of reason as laid down by Harris; but I am puzzled by
the status of the compulsion in the first sentence that I have quoted.
Is Harris writing of a historical inevitability? Of a categorical
imperative? Or is he merely making a legislative proposal? This is who-
will-rid-me-of-this-troublesome-priest language, ambiguous no doubt,
but not open to a generous interpretation.
It becomes even more sinister when considered in conjunction with the
following sentences, quite possibly the most disgraceful that I have
read in a book by a man posing as a rationalist: "The link between
belief and behavior raises the stakes considerably. Some propositions
are so dangerous that it may be ethical to kill people for believing
them. This may seem an extraordinary claim, but it merely enunciates
an ordinary fact about the world in which we live."
Let us leave aside the metaphysical problems that these three
sentences raise. For Harris, the most important question about
genocide would seem to be: "Who is genociding whom?" To adapt
Dostoyevsky slightly, starting from universal reason, I arrive at
universal madness.
Lying not far beneath the surface of all the neo-atheist books is the
kind of historiography that many of us adopted in our hormone-
disturbed adolescence, furious at the discovery that our parents
sometimes told lies and violated their own precepts and rules. It can
be summed up in Christopher Hitchens's drumbeat in God Is Not Great:
"Religion spoils everything."
What? The Saint Matthew Passion? The Cathedral of Chartres? The
emblematic religious person in these books seems to be a Glasgow
Airport bomber -- a type unrepresentative of Muslims, let alone
communicants of the poor old Church of England. It is surely not news,
except to someone so ignorant that he probably wouldn't be interested
in these books in the first place, that religious conflict has often
been murderous and that religious people have committed hideous
atrocities. But so have secularists and atheists, and though they have
had less time to prove their mettle in this area, they have proved it
amply. If religious belief is not synonymous with good behavior,
neither is absence of belief, to put it mildly.
In fact, one can write the history of anything as a chronicle of crime
and folly. Science and technology spoil everything: without trains and
IG Farben, no Auschwitz; without transistor radios and mass-produced
machetes, no Rwandan genocide. First you decide what you hate, and
then you gather evidence for its hatefulness. Since man is a fallen
creature (I use the term metaphorically rather than in its religious
sense), there is always much to find.
The thinness of the new atheism is evident in its approach to our
civilization, which until recently was religious to its core. To
regret religion is, in fact, to regret our civilization and its
monuments, its achievements, and its legacy. And in my own view, the
absence of religious faith, provided that such faith is not
murderously intolerant, can have a deleterious effect upon human
character and personality. If you empty the world of purpose, make it
one of brute fact alone, you empty it (for many people, at any rate)
of reasons for gratitude, and a sense of gratitude is necessary for
both happiness and decency. For what can soon, and all too easily,
replace gratitude is a sense of entitlement. Without gratitude, it is
hard to appreciate, or be satisfied with, what you have: and life will
become an existential shopping spree that no product satisfies.
A few years back, the National Gallery held an exhibition of Spanish
still-life paintings. One of these paintings had a physical effect on
the people who sauntered in, stopping them in their tracks; some even
gasped. I have never seen an image have such an impact on people. The
painting, by Juan S=E1nchez Cot=E1n, now hangs in the San Diego Museum of
Art. It showed four fruits and vegetables, two suspended by string,
forming a parabola in a gray stone window.
Even if you did not know that S=E1nchez Cot=E1n was a seventeenth-century
Spanish priest, you could know that the painter was religious: for
this picture is a visual testimony of gratitude for the beauty of
those things that sustain us. Once you have seen it, and concentrated
your attention on it, you will never take the existence of the humble
cabbage -- or of anything else -- quite so much for granted, but will
see its beauty and be thankful for it. The painting is a permanent
call to contemplation of the meaning of human life, and as such it
arrested people who ordinarily were not, I suspect, much given to
quiet contemplation.
The same holds true with the work of the great Dutch still-life
painters. On the neo-atheist view, the religious connection between
Catholic Spain and Protestant Holland is one of conflict, war, and
massacre only: and certainly one cannot deny this history. And yet
something more exists. As with S=E1nchez Cot=E1n, only a deep reverence,
an ability not to take existence for granted, could turn a
representation of a herring on a pewter plate into an object of
transcendent beauty, worthy of serious reflection.
I recently had occasion to compare the writings of the neo-atheists
with those of Anglican divines of the seventeenth and eighteenth
centuries. I was visiting some friends at their country house in
England, which had a library of old volumes; since the family of the
previous owners had a churchman in every generation, many of the books
were religious. In my own neo-atheist days, I would have scorned these
works as pertaining to a nonexistent entity and containing nothing of
value. I would have considered the authors deluded men, who probably
sought to delude others for reasons that Marx might have enumerated.
God doth not always strike with an intuition of sin: sometimes he
regards the benefit of our trial; sometimes, the glory of his mercy in
our cure.
But looking, say, into the works of Joseph Hall, D.D., I found myself
moved: much more moved, it goes without saying, than by any of the
books of the new atheists. Hall was bishop of Exeter and then of
Norwich; though a moderate Puritan, he took the Royalist side in the
English civil war and lost his see, dying in 1656 while Cromwell was
still Lord Protector.
Except by specialists, Hall remains almost entirely forgotten today. I
opened one of the volumes at random, his Contemplations Upon the
Principal Passages of the Holy Story. Here was the contemplation on
the sickness of Hezekiah:
Hezekiah was freed from the siege of the Assyrians, but he is
surprised with a disease. He, that delivered him from the hand of his
enemies, smites him with sickness. God doth not let us loose from all
afflictions, when he redeems us from one.
To think that Hezekiah was either not thankful enough for his
deliverance, or too much lifted up with the glory of so miraculous a
favour, were an injurious misconstruction of the hand of God, and an
uncharitable censure of a holy prince; for, though no flesh and blood
can avoid the just desert of bodily punishment, yet God doth not
always strike with an intuition of sin: sometimes he regards the
benefit of our trial; sometimes, the glory of his mercy in our cure.
Hall surely means us to infer that whatever happens to us, however
unpleasant, has a meaning and purpose; and this enables us to bear our
sorrows with greater dignity and less suffering. And it is part of the
existential reality of human life that we shall always need
consolation, no matter what progress we make. Hall continues:
When, as yet, he had not so much as the comfort of a child to
succeed him, thy prophet is sent to him, with the heavy message of his
death: "Set thine house in order; for thou shalt die, and not live."
It is no small mercy of God, that he gives us warning of our
end. . . . No soul can want important affairs, to be ordered for a
final dissolution.
This is the language not of rights and entitlements, but of something
much deeper -- a universal respect for the condition of being human.
For Hall, life is instinct with meaning: a meaning capable of
controlling man's pride at his good fortune and consoling him for his
ill fortune. Here is an extract from Hall's Characters of Virtues and
Vices:
...upon whom, all smaller crosses light as hailstones upon a roof;
and, for the greater calamities, he can take them as tributes of life
and tokens of love; and, if his ship be tossed, yet he is sure his
anchor is fast. If all the world were his, he could be no other than
he is; no whit gladder of himself, no whit higher in his carriage;
because he knows, that contentment lies not in the things he hath, but
in the mind that values them.
He is an happy man, that hath learned to read himself, more than
all books; and hath so taken out this lesson, that he can never forget
it: that knows the world, and cares not for it; that, after many
traverses of thoughts, is grown to know what he may trust to; and
stands now equally armed for all events: that hath got the mastery at
home; so as he can cross his will without a mutiny, and so please it
that he makes it not a wanton: that, in earthly things, wishes no more
than nature; in spiritual, is ever graciously ambitious: that, for his
condition, stands on his own feet, not needing to lean upon the great;
and can so frame his thoughts to his estate, that when he hath least,
he cannot want, because he is as free from desire, as superfluity:
that hath seasonably broken the headstrong restiness of prosperity;
and can now manage it, at pleasure: upon whom, all smaller crosses
light as hailstones upon a roof; and, for the greater calamities, he
can take them as tributes of life and tokens of love; and, if his ship
be tossed, yet he is sure his anchor is fast. If all the world were
his, he could be no other than he is; no whit gladder of himself, no
whit higher in his carriage; because he knows, that contentment lies
not in the things he hath, but in the mind that values them.
Though eloquent, this appeal to moderation as the key to happiness is
not original; but such moderation comes more naturally to the man who
believes in something not merely higher than himself, but higher than
mankind. After all, the greatest enjoyment of the usages of this
world, even to excess, might seem rational when the usages of this
world are all that there is.
In his Occasional Meditations, Hall takes perfectly ordinary scenes --
ordinary, of course, for his times -- and derives meaning from them.
Here is his meditation "Upon the Flies Gathering to a Galled Horse":
How these flies swarm to the galled part of this poor beast; and
there sit, feeding upon that worst piece of his flesh, not meddling
with the other sound parts of his skin! Even thus do malicious tongues
of detractors: if a man have any infirmity in his person or actions,
that they will be sure to gather unto, and dwell upon; whereas, his
commendable parts and well-deservings are passed by, without mention,
without regard. It is an envious self-love and base cruelty, that
causeth this ill disposition in men: in the mean time, this only they
have gained; it must needs be a filthy creature, that feeds upon
nothing but corruption.
Surely Hall is not suggesting (unlike Dennett in his unguarded
moments) that the biological purpose of flies is to feed off injured
horses, but rather that a sight in nature can be the occasion for us
to reflect imaginatively on our morality. He is not raising a
biological theory about flies, in contradistinction to the theory of
evolution, but thinking morally about human existence. It is true that
he would say that everything is part of God's providence, but, again,
this is no more (and no less) a metaphysical belief than the belief in
natural selection as an all-explanatory principle.
Let us compare Hall's meditation "Upon the Sight of a Harlot Carted"
with Harris's statement that some people ought perhaps to be killed
for their beliefs:
No doubt it helps that Hall lived at a time of sonorous prose,
prose that merely because of its sonority resonates in our souls;
prose of the kind that none of us, because of the time in which we
live, could ever equal. But the style applies to the thought as well
as the prose; and I prefer Hall's charity to Harris's intolerance.
With what noise, and tumult, and zeal of solemn justice, is this
sin punished! The streets are not more full of beholders, than
clamours. Every one strives to express his detestation of the fact, by
some token of revenge: one casts mire, another water, another rotten
eggs, upon the miserable offender. Neither, indeed, is she worthy of
less: but, in the mean time, no man looks home to himself. It is no
uncharity to say, that too many insult in this just punishment, who
have deserved more. . . . Public sins have more shame; private may
have more guilt. If the world cannot charge me of those, it is enough,
that I can charge my soul of worse. Let others rejoice, in these
public executions: let me pity the sins of others, and be humbled
under the sense of my own.
Who sounds more charitable, more generous, more just, more profound,
more honest, more humane: Sam Harris or Joseph Hall, D.D., late lord
bishop of Exeter and of Norwich?
No doubt it helps that Hall lived at a time of sonorous prose, prose
that merely because of its sonority resonates in our souls; prose of
the kind that none of us, because of the time in which we live, could
ever equal. But the style applies to the thought as well as the prose;
and I prefer Hall's charity to Harris's intolerance.
ACKNOWLEDGEMENT
Theodore Dalrymple. "What the New Atheists Don't See." City Journal
(Autumn, 2007).
City Journal is published by the Manhattan Institute, a think tank
whose mission is to develop and disseminate new ideas that foster
greater economic choice and individual responsibility.
THE AUTHOR
Theodore Dalrymple is a former psychiatrist and prison doctor. He
writes a column for the London Spectator, contributes frequently to
the Daily Telegraph, is a contributing editor of the Manhattan
Institute's City Journal. He lives in France and is the author of In
Praise of Prejudice: The Necessity of Preconceived Ideas, Our Culture,
What's Left of It: The Mandarins and the Masses, Life at the Bottom:
The Worldview That Makes the Underclass, and So Little Done.
.

User: "Denis Loubet"
Title: Re: To Regret Religion Is To Regret Western Civilization	29 Nov 2007 10:28:46 AM

"Sound of Trumpet" <sound_of_trumpet@hotpop.com> wrote in message
news:8e31597d-0140-4333-b88e-e03808ce0c98@y5g2000hsf.googlegroups.com...
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-religion/1932066/posts

What the New Atheists Don't See, To regret religion is to regret
Western civilization

We have Western Civilization **despite** religion.
--
Denis Loubet
dloubet@io.com
http//www.io.com/~dloubet
.

User: "James A. Donald"
Title: Re: To Regret Religion Is To Regret Western Civilization	29 Nov 2007 09:10:18 PM

What the New Atheists Don't See, To regret religion
is to regret Western civilization

"Denis Loubet"

We have Western Civilization **despite** religion.

True and untrue: Christianity repressed science and
technology less than Confucianism and Islam did.
Consider what happened to the man who could have been a
Muslim Kepler - and the Chinese equivalents did not even
get that far.
--
----------------------
We have the right to defend ourselves and our property, because
of the kind of animals that we are. True law derives from this
right, not from the arbitrary power of the omnipotent state.
http://www.jim.com/ James A. Donald
.

User: "thomas p."
Title: Re: To Regret Religion Is To Regret Western Civilization	30 Nov 2007 10:08:27 AM

"James A. Donald" <jamesd@echeque.com> skrev i en meddelelse
news:okvuk3d2gpjgjm3sk581ep08kvm37426tc@4ax.com...

What the New Atheists Don't See, To regret religion
is to regret Western civilization

"Denis Loubet"

We have Western Civilization **despite** religion.

Even assuming (and I see no reason to do so) that your statement about other
civilizations is true, it really changes nothing. Christianity repressed
science and democracy with a great deal of success for centuries and
continues to try with varying degrees of success. That other religions also
are guilty only points out the dangers of theism.
.

User: "James A. Donald"
Title: Re: To Regret Religion Is To Regret Western Civilization	01 Dec 2007 08:07:54 PM

"James A. Donald"

"thomas p."

Even assuming (and I see no reason to do so) that your
statement about other civilizations is true,

You don't know the name of the astronomer who could have
been the Muslim Kepler, nor what happened to him. Your
ignorance should tell you that my statement is true -
for if it was false, you would know his name.
--
----------------------
We have the right to defend ourselves and our property, because
of the kind of animals that we are. True law derives from this
right, not from the arbitrary power of the omnipotent state.
http://www.jim.com/ James A. Donald
.

User: "thomas p."
Title: Re: To Regret Religion Is To Regret Western Civilization	02 Dec 2007 02:01:54 AM

"James A. Donald" <jamesd@echeque.com> skrev i en meddelelse
news:sn44l35mvv78v8ts9gf17gkrm7e0rb1ont@4ax.com...

"James A. Donald"

"thomas p."

Even assuming (and I see no reason to do so) that your
statement about other civilizations is true,

What I do know is that you (without so noting) clipped the point I was
making, which had nothing to do with whether your statement was correct or
not. Such behavior on your part is very revealing.
.

User: "Douglas Berry"
Title: Re: To Regret Religion Is To Regret Western Civilization	02 Dec 2007 11:57:44 AM

On Sun, 02 Dec 2007 12:07:54 +1000 James A. Donald
<jamesd@echeque.com> carved the following into the hard stone of
alt.atheism

How about Ja'far al-Sadiq, who proposed a heliocentric model of the
solar system 600 years before Copernicus? He also proposed the idea of
an expanding universe over a thousand years before Hubble had the same
thought.
al-Khwarizimi? al-Farghani? Both wrote books on astronomy that were
later translated into Latin and stuidied by folks like Kepler.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_astronomy
Muslim astronomers discovered many of the things that European
astronomers would later rediscover, but by the time of the Renissance,
Islam was in a repressive phase and many of the writings were
supressed.
Want further proof of the amazing work of early Islamic astronomers?
Look up into the night sky.. most of the bright stars have Arabic
names.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Arabic_star_names
--
Douglas Berry Do the OBVIOUS thing to send e-mail
Atheist #2147, Atheist Vet #5
Jason Gastrich is praying for me on 8 January 2011
"The most beautiful thing we can experience is the mysterious. It is the
source of all true art and all science. He to whom this emotion is a
stranger, who can no longer pause to wonder and stand rapt in awe, is as
good as dead: his eyes are closed." - Albert Einstein
.

User: ""
Title: Re: To Regret Religion Is To Regret Western Civilization	30 Nov 2007 03:04:43 PM

On Nov 30, 8:08 am, "thomas p." <gudl...@yahoo.com> wrote:

"James A. Donald" <jam...@echeque.com> skrev i en meddelelsenews:okvuk3d2gpjgjm3sk581ep08kvm37426tc@4ax.com...

What the New Atheists Don't See, To regret religion
is to regret Western civilization

"Denis Loubet"

We have Western Civilization **despite** religion.

The greatest danger is that athiests and secular materialists lump all
forms of belief together and would like to genocide them all! Truly
you are the mirror image of the fascists you purport to hate.
.

User: ""
Title: Re: To Regret Religion Is To Regret Western Civilization	30 Nov 2007 03:12:18 PM

On Nov 30, 4:04 pm,

wrote:

On Nov 30, 8:08 am, "thomas p." <gudl...@yahoo.com> wrote:

"James A. Donald" <jam...@echeque.com> skrev i en meddelelsenews:okvuk3d2gpjgjm3sk581ep08kvm37426tc@4ax.com...

What the New Atheists Don't See, To regret religion
is to regret Western civilization

"Denis Loubet"

We have Western Civilization **despite** religion.

Genocide? Hardly. All I want is for you dumb fucks to shut the hell up
in public. Your mythologies are your own, and you have a right to
them. But if you think you should be consulted about civic policies
*because* you believe such insipid nonsense, you're crazy. Ancient
superstitions have no buisiness attempting to address the problems of
the modern age.
-Panama Floyd, Atlanta.
aa#2015/KoBAAWA!
.

User: ""
Title: Re: To Regret Religion Is To Regret Western Civilization	30 Nov 2007 07:12:45 PM

On Nov 30, 1:12 pm,

wrote:

On Nov 30, 4:04 pm,

wrote:

On Nov 30, 8:08 am, "thomas p." <gudl...@yahoo.com> wrote:

"James A. Donald" <jam...@echeque.com> skrev i en meddelelsenews:okvuk3d2gpjgjm3sk581ep08kvm37426tc@4ax.com...

What the New Atheists Don't See, To regret religion
is to regret Western civilization

"Denis Loubet"

We have Western Civilization **despite** religion.

So, you would deny free speech and civil rights to believers in God.
How are you different than a fascist?
.

User: "Panama Floyd"
Title: Re: To Regret Religion Is To Regret Western Civilization	04 Dec 2007 08:54:12 PM

On Nov 30, 8:12 pm,

wrote:

On Nov 30, 1:12 pm,

wrote:

On Nov 30, 4:04 pm,

wrote:

On Nov 30, 8:08 am, "thomas p." <gudl...@yahoo.com> wrote:

"James A. Donald" <jam...@echeque.com> skrev i en meddelelsenews:okvuk3d2gpjgjm3sk581ep08kvm37426tc@4ax.com...

What the New Atheists Don't See, To regret religion
is to regret Western civilization

"Denis Loubet"

We have Western Civilization **despite** religion.

-PanamaFloyd, Atlanta.
aa#2015/KoBAAWA!- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

So, you would deny free speech and civil rights to believers in God.

No I would not. Pray in your idiotic little temples. Read your moronic
little books. Just keep it to yourselves. I wouldn't ban pornography
either, but I sure as hell wouldn't put up with people who think
nobody should run for public office unless they like having two
orifaces filled at the same time..

How are you different than a fascist?

Because religion is a threat to the continued survival of the species.
Is a doctor a "facist" because he wishes to remove a tumor?
-Panama Floyd, Atlanta.
aa#2015/KoBAAWA!
"..the prayer cloth of one aeon is the doormat of the next."
-Mark Twain
Religious societies are *less* moral than secular ones:
http://moses.creighton.edu/JRS/2005/2005-11.html
.

User: ""
Title: Re: To Regret Religion Is To Regret Western Civilization	04 Dec 2007 08:58:27 PM

On Dec 4, 6:54 pm, Panama Floyd <panamaf...@aol.com> wrote:

On Nov 30, 8:12 pm,

wrote:

On Nov 30, 1:12 pm,

wrote:

On Nov 30, 4:04 pm,

wrote:

On Nov 30, 8:08 am, "thomas p." <gudl...@yahoo.com> wrote:

"James A. Donald" <jam...@echeque.com> skrev i en meddelelsenews:okvuk3d2gpjgjm3sk581ep08kvm37426tc@4ax.com...

What the New Atheists Don't See, To regret religion
is to regret Western civilization

"Denis Loubet"

We have Western Civilization **despite** religion.

-PanamaFloyd, Atlanta.
aa#2015/KoBAAWA!- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

So, you would deny free speech and civil rights to believers in God.

How are you different than a fascist?

Because religion is a threat to the continued survival of the species.
Is a doctor a "facist" because he wishes to remove a tumor?

You are a dangerous fascist.
.

User: "Neil Kelsey"
Title: Re: To Regret Religion Is To Regret Western Civilization	04 Dec 2007 09:24:40 PM

On Dec 4, 6:58 pm,

wrote:

On Dec 4, 6:54 pm, Panama Floyd <panamaf...@aol.com> wrote:

On Nov 30, 8:12 pm,

wrote:

On Nov 30, 1:12 pm,

wrote:

On Nov 30, 4:04 pm,

wrote:

On Nov 30, 8:08 am, "thomas p." <gudl...@yahoo.com> wrote:

"James A. Donald" <jam...@echeque.com> skrev i en meddelelsenews:okvuk3d2gpjgjm3sk581ep08kvm37426tc@4ax.com...

What the New Atheists Don't See, To regret religion
is to regret Western civilization

"Denis Loubet"

We have Western Civilization **despite** religion.

-PanamaFloyd, Atlanta.
aa#2015/KoBAAWA!- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

So, you would deny free speech and civil rights to believers in God.

How are you different than a fascist?

Because religion is a threat to the continued survival of the species.
Is a doctor a "facist" because he wishes to remove a tumor?

You are a dangerous fascist.

I suppose your standing as an eminent physicist allow you to make
statements like that.
.

User: ""
Title: Re: To Regret Religion Is To Regret Western Civilization	04 Dec 2007 10:25:30 PM

On Dec 4, 7:24 pm, Neil Kelsey <neil_kel...@hotmail.com> wrote:

On Dec 4, 6:58 pm,

wrote:

On Dec 4, 6:54 pm, Panama Floyd <panamaf...@aol.com> wrote:

On Nov 30, 8:12 pm,

wrote:

On Nov 30, 1:12 pm,

wrote:

On Nov 30, 4:04 pm,

wrote:

On Nov 30, 8:08 am, "thomas p." <gudl...@yahoo.com> wrote:

"James A. Donald" <jam...@echeque.com> skrev i en meddelelsenews:okvuk3d2gpjgjm3sk581ep08kvm37426tc@4ax.com...

What the New Atheists Don't See, To regret religion
is to regret Western civilization

"Denis Loubet"

We have Western Civilization **despite** religion.

-PanamaFloyd, Atlanta.
aa#2015/KoBAAWA!- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

So, you would deny free speech and civil rights to believers in God.

How are you different than a fascist?

Because religion is a threat to the continued survival of the species.
Is a doctor a "facist" because he wishes to remove a tumor?

You are a dangerous fascist.

I suppose your standing as an eminent physicist allow you to make
statements like that.

Did I say I had standing? No, I'm quite sure I did not. I have no
standing, nor have I a seat. It is simply a fact that I am the
greatest supergenius the world has ever known.
.

User: "Neil Kelsey"
Title: Re: To Regret Religion Is To Regret Western Civilization	05 Dec 2007 02:56:18 PM

On Dec 4, 8:25 pm,

wrote:

On Dec 4, 7:24 pm, Neil Kelsey <neil_kel...@hotmail.com> wrote:

On Dec 4, 6:58 pm,

wrote:

On Dec 4, 6:54 pm, Panama Floyd <panamaf...@aol.com> wrote:

On Nov 30, 8:12 pm,

wrote:

On Nov 30, 1:12 pm,

wrote:

On Nov 30, 4:04 pm,

wrote:

On Nov 30, 8:08 am, "thomas p." <gudl...@yahoo.com> wrote:

"James A. Donald" <jam...@echeque.com> skrev i en meddelelsenews:okvuk3d2gpjgjm3sk581ep08kvm37426tc@4ax.com...

What the New Atheists Don't See, To regret religion
is to regret Western civilization

"Denis Loubet"

We have Western Civilization **despite** religion.

-PanamaFloyd, Atlanta.
aa#2015/KoBAAWA!- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

So, you would deny free speech and civil rights to believers in God.

How are you different than a fascist?

Because religion is a threat to the continued survival of the species.
Is a doctor a "facist" because he wishes to remove a tumor?

You are a dangerous fascist.

I suppose your standing as an eminent physicist allow you to make
statements like that.

Did I say I had standing? No, I'm quite sure I did not. I have no
standing, nor have I a seat. It is simply a fact that I am the
greatest supergenius the world has ever known.

I'm deeply honoured by your presence. Tell me, when are you going to
start demonstrating this supergenius ability you say you have?
.

User: ""
Title: Re: To Regret Religion Is To Regret Western Civilization	05 Dec 2007 08:48:51 PM

On Dec 5, 12:56 pm, Neil Kelsey <neil_kel...@hotmail.com> wrote:

On Dec 4, 8:25 pm,

wrote:

Did I say I had standing? No, I'm quite sure I did not. I have no
standing, nor have I a seat. It is simply a fact that I am the
greatest supergenius the world has ever known.

I'm deeply honoured by your presence. Tell me, when are you going to
start demonstrating this supergenius ability you say you have?

I have been demonstrating it for some time, leading world class
scientists in the right direction concerning the foundations of
quantum theory. I hope to get supernatural power, as well. Do you
watch Smallville?
.

User: "Neil Kelsey"
Title: Re: To Regret Religion Is To Regret Western Civilization	05 Dec 2007 10:43:36 PM

On Dec 5, 6:48 pm,

wrote:

On Dec 5, 12:56 pm, Neil Kelsey <neil_kel...@hotmail.com> wrote:

On Dec 4, 8:25 pm,

wrote:

Did I say I had standing? No, I'm quite sure I did not. I have no
standing, nor have I a seat. It is simply a fact that I am the
greatest supergenius the world has ever known.

I'm deeply honoured by your presence. Tell me, when are you going to
start demonstrating this supergenius ability you say you have?

I watch them film it, I work a couple of blocks away from the studio.
And I've seen it a few times. Why? Do you think you're Lex Luthor?
.

User: ""
Title: Re: To Regret Religion Is To Regret Western Civilization	06 Dec 2007 06:08:57 AM

On Dec 5, 8:43 pm, Neil Kelsey <neil_kel...@hotmail.com> wrote:

On Dec 5, 6:48 pm,

wrote:

On Dec 5, 12:56 pm, Neil Kelsey <neil_kel...@hotmail.com> wrote:

On Dec 4, 8:25 pm,

wrote:

Did I say I had standing? No, I'm quite sure I did not. I have no
standing, nor have I a seat. It is simply a fact that I am the
greatest supergenius the world has ever known.

I'm deeply honoured by your presence. Tell me, when are you going to
start demonstrating this supergenius ability you say you have?

I watch them film it, I work a couple of blocks away from the studio.
And I've seen it a few times. Why? Do you think you're Lex Luthor?

No, I identify strongly with Clark Kent, and I love the show. I am no
capitalist.
.

User: "Linda Lee"
Title: Re: To Regret Religion Is To Regret Western Civilization	14 Dec 2007 04:34:08 PM

On Dec 5, 3:56 pm, Neil Kelsey <neil_kel...@hotmail.com> wrote:

On Dec 4, 8:25 pm,

wrote:

Did I say I had standing? No, I'm quite sure I did not. I have no
standing, nor have I a seat. It is simply a fact that I am the
greatest supergenius the world has ever known.

I'm deeply honoured by your presence. Tell me, when are you going to
start demonstrating this supergenius ability you say you have?

Concerning

:
Is this man sane?
Is this man the Messiah (Moshiach) as he claims?
Is this man a prophet as he claims?
Is this man more enlightened than Moses as he claims?
Has this man seen God and heard the still small voice as he claims?
Is this man the reincarnation of St. Peter as he claims?
Is this man an atheist as he claims?
Or is this man just insane and obscene?
YOU DECIDE:
Here is the spiritual state of this =E2=80=98person=E2=80=99:
Here he claims to be an atheist concerning God of the Hebrew
Scriptures who likes =E2=80=9CJesus=E2=80=9D because he feels he was a =E2=
=80=9Chippie=E2=80=9D:
From: http://groups.google.com/group/alt.philosophy/msg/c20c67e39e573e6e

( Pajamamuttonhead ) the loon wrote:
=E2=80=9CWell, that=E2=80=99s you Snowjob, you are a true religionist. I am=
not. I
am
a truth seeker. I am very critical of religion and feel free to
criticize any aspect of it that I like. I am a freethinker. With
respect to the great G-D JHVH, I AM an atheist. I think that =E2=80=9CLORD=
=E2=80=9D
is a fraud perpetrated on an unsuspecting public. I believe in Jesus
because He was a long haired hippy who understood the hippy
philosophy
2000 years ago and was largely responsible for the counterculture
movement of the 60=E2=80=99s. He returned as Sananda in 1961 and was
photographed by some archeologists in South America. I am interested
in religion as a gnosis, and I demonstrate that in my writing. I
show
the relevance to modern man and above all else I can show the
connection to modern science. I am trained as physicist, and I
specialize in the foundations of quantum theory.=E2=80=9D
Here is where he labeled me with the name of a porn star:
From: http://groups.google.com/group/alt.messianic/msg/8cf0c5fbdd02b0e4
On Dec 13, 3:23 am, DEE <adravi...@gmail.com> wrote:

They cant reject the Sovereign Lord as messiah.And of you hadnt
noticed, they *have*.As for your arguments, who the hell are you?

( Pajamamuttonhead ) the loon wrote:
=E2=80=9CYou don=E2=80=99t get it. According to Snowjob and Linda Lovelace,=
JHVH is
the true LORD, and so the Torah must therefore be true. If so, the
Jews are justified in following their Torah exclusively. No mention
of Yeshua. Hence they reject Jesus, and rightly so, by the very
logic
of the =E2=80=9CChristians.=E2=80=9D If Jesus has any place in Judaism, it =
is right
at the center - He is the LORD that Moshe saw in the burning bush,
but
could not properly identify, since he was not allowed to see HIS
face. Now, Jesus is not JHVH, because that would be pronounced
something like Jehovah, not Jesus or Yeshua. Jesus never claimed to
be JHVH. However, Jesus is Jehoshua Moshiach, and Jehoshua is JHVSA,
close enough to JHVH that Moshe could have conflated them. See?=E2=80=9D
Here is where he called me an obscenity:
From: http://groups.google.com/group/alt.messianic/msg/96fcbe8a5528cbe8

( Pajamamuttonhead ) the loon wrote:
=E2=80=9CDon=E2=80=99t get my doctrine from Linda girl, who is a lying b_tch=
..
What I say is that JHVH is the Divine Name of an angel, namely
Gabriel. It is Jews who are worshipping an angel in the place of the
LORD, whose name is =D7=99=D7=94=D7=95=D7=A9=D7=A2 , JHVSA, Jehoshua Moshiac=
h. THAT
worshipping of an angel in the place of the LORD is the Abomination
of
Desolation spoken of by the prophet Daniel. THAT is why there is all
the trouble between the three monotheistic religions. THAT is why
the
Temple was destroyed and the Jews subjected to a diaspora that will
last indefinitely until they repent, if ever. Moshe was flat out
wrong, because he didn=E2=80=99t really know the LORD, which is signified by=
the fact that he wasn=E2=80=99t allowed to see HIS face. Jews idolize Moshe=
and they idolize Gabriel, an angel, in fact the whole Torah and all
subsequent literature is one big exercise in idolotry. Jews think
Moshe could not possibly be wrong, but they have abandoned critical
thought and so they cannot see the Truth, which is so obvious to any
objective observer.=E2=80=9D
Here is where he called me another obscenity:
From: http://groups.google.com/group/alt.messianic/msg/f40d100bbc5c975d
=E2=80=9COn Dec 12, 2:04 pm, Linda Lee <lindagirl...@juno.com> wrote:

On Dec 12, 4:25 pm, guardian Snow <snowpheo...@eck.net.au> wrote:

On Dec 13, 2:56 am,

wrote:

We don=E2=80=99t need another snow job. Go back to hell from whence y=

e came.

And stop using the word =E2=80=9CShalom=E2=80=9D so inauthentically.

Not being innocent of my own outburst at times, I have to admit I was
a bit surprised that Linda had such a reaction to you.

LOL. I know. I was FURIOUS. I almost got much worse and cussed him out
and more. I wondered myself why I stayed so angry (since we=E2=80=99re oft=

called names here, and I=E2=80=99m used to it), and realized it was becaus=

e he

was lying about the name of Yeshua`.

( Pajamamuttonhead ) the loon wrote:
=E2=80=9CNo, it is because you are a sick *****.=E2=80=9D
Here is where he claims to be the Messiah (Moshiach):
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.philosophy/msg/6541a21d1d409a4b
On Dec 10, 9:42 pm,

wrote:

On Dec 10, 6:37 pm, cactus <cac...@nonespam.com> wrote:

Your religious views are fine as long as you don't claim that they have
anything to do with Judaism. I'm starting to wonder both about your
financial situation and your grasp of physics.

( Pajamamuttonhead ) the loon wrote:
=E2=80=9CYou are wrong about the ether. I claim that my interpretation of
Judaism is the only interpretation that is not a lie of the Devil. I
AM Moshiach. Follow me or perish utterly.=E2=80=9D
Here is where he called me another obscenity:
From: http://groups.google.com/group/alt.messianic/msg/b8f44c3c1b34b4f4

On Dec 12, 7:05 pm,

wrote:

On Dec 12, 2:04 pm, Linda Lee <lindagirl...@juno.com> wrote:

On Dec 12, 4:25 pm, guardian Snow <snowpheo...@eck.net.au> wrote:

On Dec 13, 2:56 am,

wrote:

We don=E2=80=99t need another snow job. Go back to hell from when=

ce ye came.

And stop using the word =E2=80=9CShalom=E2=80=9D so inauthenticall=

Not being innocent of my own outburst at times, I have to admit I wa=

a bit surprised that Linda had such a reaction to you.

LOL. I know. I was FURIOUS. I almost got much worse and cussed him out=
and more. I wondered myself why I stayed so angry (since we=E2=80=99re=

often

called names here, and I=E2=80=99m used to it), and realized it was be=

cause he

was lying about the name of Yeshua`.

No, it is because you are a sick *****.

=E2=80=9CI learned long ago, never to wrestle with a pig. You get dirty, a=

nd besides, the pig likes it.=E2=80=9D -- George Bernard Shaw

( Pajamamuttonhead ) the loon wrote:
=E2=80=9CThe main problem for you, liar, is that I will win and expose you
and
your infantile belief as the meaningless trite spewings of a hateful
*****.=E2=80=9D
Here is where he announces he is more enlightened than Moshe/Moses:
From: http://groups.google.com/group/alt.bible/msg/d662b07d2655c762
On Dec 10, 8:58 am, Linda Lee <lindagirl...@juno.com> wrote:

On Dec 10, 8:23 am,

wrote:

On Dec 9, 4:38 pm, Linda Lee <lyndalee8...@juno.com> wrote:

It is not the NT that is confused; it is you. Yeshua` and our Father
are one.

Then who is YHVH? Yeshua, Jod Shin Vav Ayin, is a *****-ant name. The
correct name is Jehoshua, Jod He Vav Shin Ayin, which is enough like
Jod He Vav He that Moses could have mistaken one for the other, since
he never knew the true identity of the LORD that he saw in the burning
bush. This is symbolized by the fact that he could only see his
backside. You can=E2=80=99t identify someone, especially someone you don=

=E2=80=99t

already know, from the back.

How pathetic. You think you know more than Moshe/Moses and can see he
made mistakes.

( Pajamamuttonhead ) the loon wrote:
=E2=80=9CWhy is it pathetic, oh worthless human? Do you idolize Moses? If we=
had not surpassed him after 3000 years something would be wrong. I
have deeper enlightenment than Moses. That=E2=80=99s exactly what I said, an=
d
it is absolutely true!=E2=80=9D
Here is where I was speaking to Mark T, but he thought I was
challenging he possesses the greatest spiritual knowledge on earth:
FROM: http://groups.google.com/group/alt.bible/msg/f287a21ac617bc09

Your inability to comprehend anything but the flesh is your problem.
God is a spirit; men and women *have* a spirit. The Spirit of Yeshua`
was/is God=E2=80=99s Spirit. His spirit was not constrained the way ours i=

( Pajamamuttonhead ) the loon wrote:
=E2=80=9CYou are an idiot. I do know the structure of the spiritual reality
better than any man. =E2=80=9CSpiritual=E2=80=9D is not a free pass to be a =
know-
nothing idiot.=E2=80=9D
Here is where he called another poster an obscenity:
From: http://groups.google.com/group/alt.messianic/msg/c4cdb9447fa6de2c

( Pajamamuttonhead ) the loon wrote:
=E2=80=9CCocksucker!=E2=80=9D
Here is where he called another poster an obscenity:
From: http://groups.google.com/group/alt.messianic/msg/a4d97683ea29bba9

( Pajamamuttonhead ) the loon wrote:
=E2=80=9CHey you worthless drop of *****, leave the title alone.=E2=80=9D
Here he spews more obscenities at another poster:
From: http://groups.google.com/group/alt.messianic/msg/f4fa575ba5a4addc

( Pajamamuttonhead ) the loon wrote:
=E2=80=9COh, poor crybaby. Big ***** artist claims that the doctrine of
karma is a =E2=80=9Cthreat.=E2=80=9D If you=E2=80=99re too dumb to figure i=
t out, what I was
complaining about was the changing of the title by two infantile
=E2=80=9CChristians=E2=80=9D named Guardian Snowjob and Linda Lovelace. Tha=
t
prevents
people from knowing the subject matter of this discussion.=E2=80=9D
Here is where he relates how he saw God in the burning bush and became
a prophet:
From: http://groups.google.com/group/alt.messianic/msg/d33f5d80fdba1c22

( Pajamamuttonhead ) the loon wrote:
=E2=80=9CI have also seen G-D in the burning bush, according to the fiat lux=
(see Genesis 1). I heard the still small voice of the heart that
Elijah heard, and I was empowered as a prophet. This was through Zen
Roshi Philip Kapleau, a Jew.=E2=80=9D
Here he spews more obscenities at another poster:
From: http://groups.google.com/group/alt.messianic/msg/b98aae088da42329

( Pajamamuttonhead ) the loon wrote:
On Dec 12, 9:03 pm, guardian Snow <snowpheo...@eck.net.au> wrote:

On Dec 13, 3:50 pm,

wrote:

What a bunch of infantile low-lifes on this forum. Jews, Christians,
Atheists all will not even let me exercise my rights of free speech.
All of you are truly evil and will truly get what you deserve.

Coming from you thats a very nice compliment. Does that mean you=E2=80=99=

stay for more? After meeting you, I=E2=80=99ve decided I am in favor of
abortion in cases of incest.

=E2=80=9CListen you sick *****, quit changing the title of this. Go have
your
own discussion. Allow me my rights of free speech. You are rotten
to
the core.=E2=80=9D
Here he spews more obscenities at another poster:
From: http://groups.google.com/group/alt.philosophy/msg/cdbf8b4381c7f599

( Pajamamuttonhead ) the loon wrote:
=E2=80=9CLook, Syd, you are a liar. I am not =E2=80=9Ctrolling.=E2=80=9D I=
sincerely see a
connection between all the groups I posted to and the subject matter
I
am talking about. You are just a bigot. The minute you see certain
buzzwords, you flip out and begin your persecution routine. I don=E2=80=99t=
think you even read my brief essay. So, wise up or *****.=E2=80=9D
.

User: ""
Title: Re: To Regret Religion Is To Regret Western Civilization	14 Dec 2007 05:22:58 PM

On Dec 14, 2:34 pm, Linda Lee <li...@hipstargraphics.com> wrote:

Blah, blah, blah.

Linda, are you stalking me?
.

User: ""
Title: Re: To Regret Religion Is To Regret Western Civilization	05 Dec 2007 12:45:35 PM

On Dec 4, 9:58 pm,

wrote:

On Dec 4, 6:54 pm,PanamaFloyd<panamaf...@aol.com> wrote:

On Nov 30, 8:12 pm,

wrote:

On Nov 30, 1:12 pm,

wrote:

On Nov 30, 4:04 pm,

wrote:

On Nov 30, 8:08 am, "thomas p." <gudl...@yahoo.com> wrote:

"James A. Donald" <jam...@echeque.com> skrev i en meddelelsenews:okvuk3d2gpjgjm3sk581ep08kvm37426tc@4ax.com...

What the New Atheists Don't See, To regret religion
is to regret Western civilization

"Denis Loubet"

We have Western Civilization **despite** religion.

-PanamaFloyd, Atlanta.
aa#2015/KoBAAWA!- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

So, you would deny free speech and civil rights to believers in God.

How are you different than a fascist?

Because religion is a threat to the continued survival of the species.
Is a doctor a "facist" because he wishes to remove a tumor?

You are a dangerous fascist.

And you are an ignorant *****. Did I not just say I would allow you
morons to do your little rain dances in your pathetic little temples?
Did I say I would close your insipid little tax-free torture centers?
Did I say I would prevent you from passing along your disease to your
children?
No, I did not.
All I said was that your idiotic Bronze Age mythology should *not* be
consulted when deciding civic policy. And an additional request that
you cretins talk that crap to each other, instead of deafening normal,
decent people with it in public. You don't like being insulted about
your mythology because it's "personal"?. Fine. Keep it to yourself.
Your choice of underwear is "personal", too-but you manage to keep
*that* to yourselves. Why can't you control yourselves when it comes
to your "supernatural" nonsense?
I need not take any action to remove you clowns from society by force.
Your myth is on the way out. I only hope that whatever replaces
Christianity is less violent and much more *quiet*.
-Panama Floyd, Atlanta.
aa#2015/KoBAAWA!
.

User: ""
Title: Re: To Regret Religion Is To Regret Western Civilization	05 Dec 2007 02:15:48 PM

On Dec 5, 10:45 am,

wrote:

I need not take any action to remove you clowns from society by force.
Your myth is on the way out. I only hope that whatever replaces
Christianity is less violent and much more *quiet*.

May you be deeply disappointed.
.

User: ""
Title: Re: To Regret Religion Is To Regret Western Civilization	05 Dec 2007 02:27:12 PM

On Dec 5, 3:15 pm,

wrote:

On Dec 5, 10:45 am,

wrote:

I need not take any action to remove you clowns from society by force.
Your myth is on the way out. I only hope that whatever replaces
Christianity is less violent and much more *quiet*.

May you be deeply disappointed.

Quite convienent snippage, you whiny little *****-assed punk. Jeez, a
church on every corner of the US, polls every other week claiming
you're 80% of the population, and you folks still whine like a two
year old who doesn't want to take their nap. You are as dishonest as
you are ignorant. Here, read *this* before your next Usenet
discussion. Perhaps it will help.
http://www.readingcomprehensionconnection.com/
-Panama Floyd, Atlanta.
aa#2015/KoBAAWA!
.

User: "brique"
Title: Re: To Regret Religion Is To Regret Western Civilization	29 Nov 2007 10:37:12 PM

James A. Donald <jamesd@echeque.com> wrote in message
news:okvuk3d2gpjgjm3sk581ep08kvm37426tc@4ax.com...

What the New Atheists Don't See, To regret religion
is to regret Western civilization

"Denis Loubet"

We have Western Civilization **despite** religion.

I seem to recall an earlier silly comment by James about the chinese, which
was rebutted by a long list of Chinese inventions and discoveries all long
before Western civilisation managed them. James dismissed these facts as
'nobody knew their names'...... ah well, I guess any similar rebuttal of
this piece of Jamesian nonsense will meet a similar 'enlightened'
response.....
.

User: "James A. Donald"
Title: Re: To Regret Religion Is To Regret Western Civilization	01 Dec 2007 08:05:17 PM

On Fri, 30 Nov 2007 04:37:12 -0000, "brique"
<briquenoir@freeuk.c0m> wrote:

Your memory is deteriorating in your old age.
Nobody knew their names, because of the propensity of
the Chinese government to castrate and enslave anyone
who advanced technology.
--
----------------------
We have the right to defend ourselves and our property, because
of the kind of animals that we are. True law derives from this
right, not from the arbitrary power of the omnipotent state.
http://www.jim.com/ James A. Donald
.

User: "brique"
Title: Re: To Regret Religion Is To Regret Western Civilization	02 Dec 2007 03:16:17 AM

James A. Donald <jamesd@echeque.com> wrote in message
news:tj44l3l1k8rs7i66ek2fvleggkemlu1gmp@4ax.com...

On Fri, 30 Nov 2007 04:37:12 -0000, "brique"
<briquenoir@freeuk.c0m> wrote:

Your memory is deteriorating in your old age.

.... selective amnesia, is that part of your anglo-saxon nobility then?

Nobody knew their names, because of the propensity of
the Chinese government to castrate and enslave anyone
who advanced technology.

...... oops, he remembers now......
.

User: "bowman"
Title: Re: To Regret Religion Is To Regret Western Civilization	01 Dec 2007 08:45:17 PM

James A. Donald wrote:

Nobody knew their names, because of the propensity of
the Chinese government to castrate and enslave anyone
who advanced technology.

Zhang Heng? Ma Jun?
.

User: "James A. Donald"
Title: Re: To Regret Religion Is To Regret Western Civilization<