"ike milligan" <accordiondoc@mindspring.com> wrote in
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"Fred Stone" <fstone69@earthling.com> wrote in message
news:Xns999AE0AE9E420freddybear@216.151.153.47...

"ike milligan" <accordiondoc@mindspring.com> wrote in
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"Fred Stone" <fstone69@earthling.com> wrote in message
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Matt Silberstein <RemoveThisPrefixmatts2nospam@ix.netcom.com> wrote
in news:t686d319msqhd4a1fdfmmr2reqveh7mnb9@4ax.com:

On 27 Aug 2007 17:22:31 GMT, in alt.atheism , Fred Stone
<fstone69@earthling.com> in
<Xns9999882EC82CDfreddybear@216.151.153.47> wrote:

Matt Silberstein <RemoveThisPrefixmatts2nospam@ix.netcom.com>
wrote in news:ksu5d3le39e332juhkuprtkv01d411dgqf@4ax.com:

On 26 Aug 2007 20:48:41 GMT, in alt.atheism , Fred Stone
<fstone69@earthling.com> in
<Xns9998AB24B45C3freddybear@216.151.153.44> wrote:

"ike milligan" <accordiondoc@mindspring.com> wrote in
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"Fred Stone" <fstone69@earthling.com> wrote in message
news:Xns9997CCE1E1A47freddybear@216.151.153.45...

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y23/drsanity/demlogic.jpg

There are 2 panels. Panel A shows a donkey saying, "The surge
is not working; weshould give up." Panel B shows the donkey
saying, " The surge is working; we should give up." OK, I
don't get it. I am sure that if the elite who control the war
give up, it will be because there is no choice. Then, Fred,
will you blame the Democrats for stabbing America in the back,
like Hitler blamed the Jews for losing WW I by stabbing
Germany in the back?

They aren't going to give up, because we aren't losing. We're
kicking al Q's sorry little camel fucking asses and they know
it.

And if al Q *in Iraq* (we have ignored the real al Qaeda) was
the problem, and not simply a small bit of the problem and one
that we caused, then you might have a point.

They are the real al Qaeda, so thank you for acknowledging that I
have a point.

No, Fred, you don't. Very little of the problem or violence in
Iraq is due to al Qaeda. If we eliminated them tomorrow it would
not cause a fundamental change in the situation.

You are wrong, Matt. al Q causes the largest part of the violence,
either directly or by inciting other groups to lash out in
retaliation against those whom they perceive to be supporting the
terrorists.

And al Q in Iraq is the real al Q. Don't kid yourself.

Depends on how you define "real". Secondly, if the U.S. had never
botched up the place, a lot more people would still be alive, and
have homes.

Depends on whether you care about the Iraqis that Saddam would have
slaughtered. But you don't, do you? You only care about the ones that
you can blame on America, however much you have to strain to do it.

Wheter or not I care about those Iraqis, it is a non-sequitur to
pretend to care now that the country is trashed b the U.S.

The US didn't trash the country. The US has tried to FIX the country.

Once Saddam was overthrown, many tens of thousands of people
would still be alive if the U.S. had withdrawn.

And another subset of the Iraqi people, probably in the hundreds of
thousands would be dead.

So it is better for american military to kill them than Saddam? And
the nubers are very debatable.

The American military didn't kill them either. MOST of the Iraqis have
been killed by other Iraqis or by foreign al Qaeda terrorists.

Also, the U.S.
military may have killed more people directly than Al Q did.

Not likely.

Plausible.

Not to anybody who isn't a rabid anti-American jackass.

But
that's the point, Arab lives are not considered of any value to the
colonialist wannabes who control the military.

Since the Americans are not "colonialist wannabes" that criticism is
misplaced at best, and outright propaganda at worst. Which
description do you prefer for yourself, ike, ignorant fool or
deliberate liar?

Neo-cons are.

Not.

If Arab lives had any
value to those elitists, Bush Sr. would not have told the Shia to
revolt and then done nothing to help them when Saddam put them down
and slaughtered them.

Now you're talking about the "realist" school of foreign policy
wonks. You know, the ones who give a flying ***** what the UN thinks.

I am not sure what that school of foreign policy is, or what is has to
do with the discussion. And as far as I know, no one cares what the UN
"thinks".

You mentioned them, ike. Don't you know anything about the sources of
the propaganda that you spout?

--
Fred Stone
aa# 1369
"To abjure violence it is necessary to have no experience of it." -
George Orwell