On Feb 27, 9:13 pm, Deuteros <deute...@xrs.net> wrote:

There is a great debate in the United States over whether or not
terrorists have the same rights as American citizens, or even if
terrorists have any rights under the Constitution at all. President
Bush has maintained that captured terrorists are enemy combatants, and
do not have the rights an privileges guaranteed by the Constitution.
Bush is so adamant that terrorists do not have rights under US law that
they are imprisoned at Guantanamo Bay, where Cuba technically has
sovereignty even though the United States has effective legal control.

Another popular claim is that captured terrorists are actually
prisoners of war. Prisoners of war do not typically get to challenge
their detention and so captured terrorists must be held until
hostilities have ceased.

Some even go as far as claiming that not even illegal immigrants have
rights under the Constitution, because the Constitution only applies to
American citizens.

I maintain that the Constitution applies to the federal government, and
not to any type of person at all.

On what do you base that assertion? Historically, full rights of
citizenship guaranteed by the Constitution only apply to American
citizens, although the *laws* or the US cover whoever falls under
their jurisdiction.

On Feb 28, 10:50 am,

trijcomm <trijc...@yahoo.com> wrote:

On Feb 27, 10:13 pm, Deuteros <deute...@xrs.net> wrote:

I maintain that the Constitution applies to the federal government,
and not to any type of person at all.

That would come as a shock to the founding fathers.

No, it would not. If you read the Constitution, and the Bill of
Rights in particular, you will see that it is worded to put limits
on government and not to define the rights of people.

It sure does define the rights of people, both explicitly and
implicitly:

THE BILL OF RIGHTS
Amendments 1-10 of the Constitution

The Conventions of a number of the States having, at the time of
adopting the Constitution, expressed a desire, in order to prevent
misconstruction or abuse of its powers, that further declaratory and
restrictive clauses should be added, and as extending the ground of
public confidence in the Government will best insure the beneficent
ends of its institution;

Resolved, by the Senate and House of Representatives of the United
States of America, in Congress assembled, two-thirds of both Houses
concurring, that the following articles be proposed to the
Legislatures of the several States, as amendments to the Constitution
of the United States; all or any of which articles, when ratified by
three-fourths of the said Legislatures, to be valid to all intents and
purposes as part of the said Constitution, namely:

Amendment I

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or
prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of
speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to
assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.

Amendment II

A well regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free
state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be
infringed.

Amendment III

No soldier shall, in time of peace be quartered in any house, without
the consent of the owner, nor in time of war, but in a manner to be
prescribed by law.

Amendment IV

The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers,
and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be
violated, and no warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause,
supported by oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the
place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.

Amendment V

No person shall be held to answer for a capital, or otherwise infamous
crime, unless on a presentment or indictment of a grand jury, except
in cases arising in the land or naval forces, or in the militia, when
in actual service in time of war or public danger; nor shall any
person be subject for the same offense to be twice put in jeopardy of
life or limb; nor shall be compelled in any criminal case to be a
witness against himself, nor be deprived of life, liberty, or
property, without due process of law; nor shall private property be
taken for public use, without just compensation.

Amendment VI

In all criminal prosecutions, the accused shall enjoy the right to a
speedy and public trial, by an impartial jury of the state and
district wherein the crime shall have been committed, which district
shall have been previously ascertained by law, and to be informed of
the nature and cause of the accusation; to be confronted with the
witnesses against him; to have compulsory process for obtaining
witnesses in his favor, and to have the assistance of counsel for his
defense.

Amendment VII

In suits at common law, where the value in controversy shall exceed
twenty dollars, the right of trial by jury shall be preserved, and no
fact tried by a jury, shall be otherwise reexamined in any court of
the United States, than according to the rules of the common law.

Amendment VIII

Excessive bail shall not be required, nor excessive fines imposed, nor
cruel and unusual punishments inflicted.

Amendment IX

The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be
construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people.

Amendment X

The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor
prohibited by it to the states, are reserved to the states
respectively, or to the people.



Which Bill of Rights were you reading???

On Mar 3, 12:32�am, "Baldin Lee Pramer" <BaldinPra...@msn.com> wrote:

On Feb 28, 10:50 am,

trijcomm <trijc...@yahoo.com> wrote:

On Feb 27, 10:13 pm, Deuteros <deute...@xrs.net> wrote:

I maintain that the Constitution applies to the federal
government,

and not

to any type of person at all.

That would come as a shock to the founding fathers.

No, it would not.  If you read the Constitution, and the Bill of
Rights in particular, you will see that it is worded to put limits
on government and not to define the rights of people.

It sure does define the rights of people, both explicitly and
implicitly:

THE BILL OF RIGHTS
Amendments 1-10 of the Constitution

The Conventions of a number of the States having, at the time of
adopting the Constitution, expressed a desire, in order to prevent
misconstruction or abuse of its powers, that further declaratory and
restrictive clauses should be added, and as extending the ground of
public confidence in the Government will best insure the beneficent
ends of its institution;

Resolved, by the Senate and House of Representatives of the United
States of America, in Congress assembled, two-thirds of both Houses
concurring, that the following articles be proposed to the
Legislatures of the several States, as amendments to the Constitution
of the United States; all or any of which articles, when ratified by
three-fourths of the said Legislatures, to be valid to all intents and
purposes as part of the said Constitution, namely:

Amendment I

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or
prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of
speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to
assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.

Amendment II

A well regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free
state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be
infringed.

Amendment III

No soldier shall, in time of peace be quartered in any house, without
the consent of the owner, nor in time of war, but in a manner to be
prescribed by law.

Amendment IV

The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers,
and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be
violated, and no warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause,
supported by oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the
place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.

Amendment V

No person shall be held to answer for a capital, or otherwise infamous
crime, unless on a presentment or indictment of a grand jury, except
in cases arising in the land or naval forces, or in the militia, when
in actual service in time of war or public danger; nor shall any
person be subject for the same offense to be twice put in jeopardy of
life or limb; nor shall be compelled in any criminal case to be a
witness against himself, nor be deprived of life, liberty, or
property, without due process of law; nor shall private property be
taken for public use, without just compensation.

Amendment VI

In all criminal prosecutions, the accused shall enjoy the right to a
speedy and public trial, by an impartial jury of the state and
district wherein the crime shall have been committed, which district
shall have been previously ascertained by law, and to be informed of
the nature and cause of the accusation; to be confronted with the
witnesses against him; to have compulsory process for obtaining
witnesses in his favor, and to have the assistance of counsel for his
defense.

Amendment VII

In suits at common law, where the value in controversy shall exceed
twenty dollars, the right of trial by jury shall be preserved, and no
fact tried by a jury, shall be otherwise reexamined in any court of
the United States, than according to the rules of the common law.

Amendment VIII

Excessive bail shall not be required, nor excessive fines imposed, nor
cruel and unusual punishments inflicted.

Amendment IX

The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be
construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people.

Amendment X

The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor
prohibited by it to the states, are reserved to the states
respectively, or to the people.

Which Bill of Rights were you reading???

Baldin Lee Pramer

Why the Constitution is a Failure.

Initially, the founding fathers are to blame.

Thomas Jefferson
Benjamin Franklin
George Washington
John Adams
et al ..........

What did they do wrong?
It's what they didn't do. They didn't finish the job. Many of you
cannot recognize an unfinished intellectual job because there are so
few "finished" jobs on the Earth today to compare it to.

The process involves perseverance, a sense of personal integrity, your
experience, and a certain ability to grab a new concept out of thin
air where previously everyone was "clueless". The founding fathers had
all this going for them ... yet they did not finish. They were lacking
in one item. They stopped short and called it quits. They did not
"persevere".

My personal estimate is that they stopped working on the constitution
2-6 months prematurely

http://www.ebtx.com/pgv/pgv01a.htm

There is a great debate in the United States over whether or not
terrorists have the same rights as American citizens, or even if
terrorists have any rights under the Constitution at all. President Bush
has maintained that captured terrorists are enemy combatants, and do not
have the rights an privileges guaranteed by the Constitution. Bush is so
adamant that terrorists do not have rights under US law that they are
imprisoned at Guantanamo Bay, where Cuba technically has sovereignty even
though the United States has effective legal control.

There is a great debate in the United States over whether or not
terrorists have the same rights as American citizens, or even if
terrorists have any rights under the Constitution at all. President Bush
has maintained that captured terrorists are enemy combatants, and do not
have the rights an privileges guaranteed by the Constitution. Bush is so
adamant that terrorists do not have rights under US law that they are
imprisoned at Guantanamo Bay, where Cuba technically has sovereignty even
though the United States has effective legal control.

Another popular claim is that captured terrorists are actually prisoners
of war. Prisoners of war do not typically get to challenge their detention
and so captured terrorists must be held until hostilities have ceased.

Some even go as far as claiming that not even illegal immigrants have
rights under the Constitution, because the Constitution only applies to
American citizens.

I maintain that the Constitution applies to the federal government, and not
to any type of person at all.