ToBs: Contradictions in science



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Topic: Religions > Atheism
User: "Xavier Harkonnen"
Date: 29 Sep 2006 08:49:13 AM
Object: ToBs: Contradictions in science
PEERING down the microscope, the scientist jumped at what he saw.
“Eureka!” he shouted. And another great scientific discovery was made.
That is the sort of thing we are taught to believe about the triumphs of
science. Recall your elementary-school science class for a moment.
Remember the great heroes in science’s hall of fame? Men like Galileo,
Newton, Darwin and Einstein are extolled not only for their scientific
achievements but also for their virtues—objectivity, dedication,
honesty, humility, and so forth. The impression was that by the sheer
force of their superior intelligence and rational mind, the mysteries of
nature just unveiled themselves and the truth simply popped out in front
of them.
In reality, however, things are not quite that simple. In most cases,
scientists must spend months or years laboring in the laboratories,
struggling with results that often are confusing, puzzling and even
contradictory.
.

User: "Cymek-Agamemnon"

Title: Re: Salami Science 02 Oct 2006 07:28:44 AM
John Schilling wrote:

On 29 Sep 2006 11:13:15 -0700,

wrote:

As for the effectiveness of replication in spotting fraud, there
appears to be a vast gap between theory and practice. In today's
highly competitive field of scientific research, scientists are more
concerned with breaking new ground than with repeating what someone
else has done. Even if a scientist's work is based on an experiment
done by someone else, the experiment is rarely repeated in exactly the
same form.


That's a strength, not a weakness.

For the plagiarist, yes it is.
.

User: ""

Title: Re: Salami Science 29 Sep 2006 04:03:04 PM
In article <1159553595.686048.227600@m7g2000cwm.googlegroups.com>,
writes:

As for the effectiveness of replication in spotting fraud, there
appears to be a vast gap between theory and practice. In today's
highly competitive field of scientific research, scientists are more
concerned with breaking new ground than with repeating what someone
else has done. Even if a scientist's work is based on an experiment
done by someone else, the experiment is rarely repeated in exactly the
same form.

The problem of replication is further compounded by what is sometimes
called salami science. Some researchers deliberately 'slice up'
their experimental findings into small bits in order to multiply the
number of publishable works. This "affords an opportunity for
dishonesty," says a Harvard committee, "because such reports are
less likely to be verified by others." Researchers well know that
unless an experiment is really important, it is unlikely that anyone
will try to repeat it. It has been estimated that as much as half of
all published papers are "unchecked, unreplicated, and maybe even
unread

Well, David Mermin once wrote that on the average, a paper is being
read by 1.2 people, and that includes the author:-) So, yes, the
above is true. Still, if some result is important enough for somebody
to read and rely upon in subsequent work, then it is being checked,
directly or indirectly. And if it is not important enough for this,
then it really doesn't matter much that it is not being checked.
Mati Meron | "When you argue with a fool,
meron@cars.uchicago.edu | chances are he is doing just the same"
.

User: "Matt Silberstein"

Title: Re: Isaac Newton: cheated????????? 29 Sep 2006 11:25:45 AM
On Fri, 29 Sep 2006 16:09:27 GMT, in alt.atheism , "Sorcerer"
<Headmaster@hogwarts.physics_b> in
<XybTg.60082$wg.8875@fe1.news.blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:


"Xavier Harkonnen" <GeidiPrime@gamu.org> wrote in message
news:eWaTg.201$3T2.133@trnddc06...
| Isaac Newton is often called the father of modern physics for his
| pioneering work on the theory of universal gravitation. The idea, when
| published in his famous treatise Philosophiae Naturalis Principia
| Mathematica (Mathematical Principles of Natural Philosophy), was
| strongly opposed by some contemporary scientists, including the German
| mathematician Gottfried Leibniz. This resulted in an extended feud
| between them that was not put to rest until the end of their lives.
|
| Writing in Science, Richard S. Westfall asserted that, to strengthen his
| position, Newton made some “adjustments” in the Principia so that his
| calculations and measurements would more closely support his theory,
| making it more convincing. In one example, accuracy of one part in 3,000
| was claimed, and in another his computations were carried to seven
| decimal places, something quite unheard of in those days. “If the
| Principia established the quantitative pattern of modern science,” wrote
| Westfall, “it equally suggested a less sublime truth—that no one can
| manipulate the fudge factor so effectively as the master mathematician
| himself.”
|
| Newton allowed himself to be drawn into another controversy that
| eventually got the better of him. To claim priority over Leibniz for the
| invention of calculus, according to the Encyclopædia Britannica, Newton,
| as president of the esteemed Royal Society, “appointed an ‘impartial’
| committee [made up mostly of his adherents] to investigate the issue,
| secretly wrote the report officially published by the society, and
| reviewed it anonymously in the Philosophical Transactions,” thus
| crediting himself with the honor.
|
| That a man of Newton’s stature would resort to such tactics is indeed a
| paradox. It clearly shows that conscientious and honorable though a
| scientist, or anyone, may be in other things, when his own reputation or
| interest is at stake, he can become quite dogmatic, irrational, even
| reckless, or take a shortcut.
|
| “It seems a reasonable, not to say trite, thought that scientists are
| human, subject to the same frailties as we all are, heroic, cowardly,
| honest and sly, silly and sensible in about the same measure, expert in
| some fields, but not in many,” writes consultant Roy Herbert in New
| Scientist. Though this view may not be held universally in the world of
| science, he adds, “I find no difficulty in accepting that.”

Produce the evidence.

Probably this:
Newton and the Fudge Factor
Richard S. Westfall
Science 23 February 1973 179: 751-758 [DOI:
10.1126/science.179.4075.751] (in Articles)
See also: http://www.edwardtbabinski.us/creationism/newton.html
--
Matt Silberstein
Do something today about the Darfur Genocide
http://www.beawitness.org
http://www.darfurgenocide.org
http://www.savedarfur.org
"Darfur: A Genocide We can Stop"
.
User: "Sorcerer"

Title: Re: Isaac Newton: cheated????????? 29 Sep 2006 12:06:55 PM
"Matt Silberstein" <RemoveThisPrefixmatts2nospam@ix.netcom.com> wrote in
message news:02iqh257lt9j9080o7omtognr9df2c7c6b@4ax.com...
| On Fri, 29 Sep 2006 16:09:27 GMT, in alt.atheism , "Sorcerer"
| <Headmaster@hogwarts.physics_b> in
| <XybTg.60082$wg.8875@fe1.news.blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:
|
| >
| >"Xavier Harkonnen" <GeidiPrime@gamu.org> wrote in message
| >news:eWaTg.201$3T2.133@trnddc06...
| >| Isaac Newton is often called the father of modern physics for his
| >| pioneering work on the theory of universal gravitation. The idea, when
| >| published in his famous treatise Philosophiae Naturalis Principia
| >| Mathematica (Mathematical Principles of Natural Philosophy), was
| >| strongly opposed by some contemporary scientists, including the German
| >| mathematician Gottfried Leibniz. This resulted in an extended feud
| >| between them that was not put to rest until the end of their lives.
| >|
| >| Writing in Science, Richard S. Westfall asserted that, to strengthen
his
| >| position, Newton made some "adjustments" in the Principia so that his
| >| calculations and measurements would more closely support his theory,
| >| making it more convincing. In one example, accuracy of one part in
3,000
| >| was claimed, and in another his computations were carried to seven
| >| decimal places, something quite unheard of in those days. "If the
| >| Principia established the quantitative pattern of modern science,"
wrote
| >| Westfall, "it equally suggested a less sublime truth-that no one can
| >| manipulate the fudge factor so effectively as the master mathematician
| >| himself."
| >|
| >| Newton allowed himself to be drawn into another controversy that
| >| eventually got the better of him. To claim priority over Leibniz for
the
| >| invention of calculus, according to the Encyclopædia Britannica,
Newton,
| >| as president of the esteemed Royal Society, "appointed an 'impartial'
| >| committee [made up mostly of his adherents] to investigate the issue,
| >| secretly wrote the report officially published by the society, and
| >| reviewed it anonymously in the Philosophical Transactions," thus
| >| crediting himself with the honor.
| >|
| >| That a man of Newton's stature would resort to such tactics is indeed a
| >| paradox. It clearly shows that conscientious and honorable though a
| >| scientist, or anyone, may be in other things, when his own reputation
or
| >| interest is at stake, he can become quite dogmatic, irrational, even
| >| reckless, or take a shortcut.
| >|
| >| "It seems a reasonable, not to say trite, thought that scientists are
| >| human, subject to the same frailties as we all are, heroic, cowardly,
| >| honest and sly, silly and sensible in about the same measure, expert in
| >| some fields, but not in many," writes consultant Roy Herbert in New
| >| Scientist. Though this view may not be held universally in the world of
| >| science, he adds, "I find no difficulty in accepting that."
| >
| >Produce the evidence.
| Probably this:
I said "Produce the evidence", I did not say "probably produce the
evidence", *****.
Androcles
.
User: "Matt Silberstein"

Title: Re: Isaac Newton: cheated????????? 29 Sep 2006 01:48:35 PM
On Fri, 29 Sep 2006 17:06:55 GMT, in alt.atheism , "Sorcerer"
<Headmaster@hogwarts.physics_b> in
<PocTg.50459$aP3.19481@fe3.news.blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:


"Matt Silberstein" <RemoveThisPrefixmatts2nospam@ix.netcom.com> wrote in
message news:02iqh257lt9j9080o7omtognr9df2c7c6b@4ax.com...
| On Fri, 29 Sep 2006 16:09:27 GMT, in alt.atheism , "Sorcerer"
| <Headmaster@hogwarts.physics_b> in
| <XybTg.60082$wg.8875@fe1.news.blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:
|
| >
| >"Xavier Harkonnen" <GeidiPrime@gamu.org> wrote in message
| >news:eWaTg.201$3T2.133@trnddc06...
| >| Isaac Newton is often called the father of modern physics for his
| >| pioneering work on the theory of universal gravitation. The idea, when
| >| published in his famous treatise Philosophiae Naturalis Principia
| >| Mathematica (Mathematical Principles of Natural Philosophy), was
| >| strongly opposed by some contemporary scientists, including the German
| >| mathematician Gottfried Leibniz. This resulted in an extended feud
| >| between them that was not put to rest until the end of their lives.
| >|
| >| Writing in Science, Richard S. Westfall asserted that, to strengthen
his
| >| position, Newton made some "adjustments" in the Principia so that his
| >| calculations and measurements would more closely support his theory,
| >| making it more convincing. In one example, accuracy of one part in
3,000
| >| was claimed, and in another his computations were carried to seven
| >| decimal places, something quite unheard of in those days. "If the
| >| Principia established the quantitative pattern of modern science,"
wrote
| >| Westfall, "it equally suggested a less sublime truth-that no one can
| >| manipulate the fudge factor so effectively as the master mathematician
| >| himself."
| >|
| >| Newton allowed himself to be drawn into another controversy that
| >| eventually got the better of him. To claim priority over Leibniz for
the
| >| invention of calculus, according to the Encyclopædia Britannica,
Newton,
| >| as president of the esteemed Royal Society, "appointed an 'impartial'
| >| committee [made up mostly of his adherents] to investigate the issue,
| >| secretly wrote the report officially published by the society, and
| >| reviewed it anonymously in the Philosophical Transactions," thus
| >| crediting himself with the honor.
| >|
| >| That a man of Newton's stature would resort to such tactics is indeed a
| >| paradox. It clearly shows that conscientious and honorable though a
| >| scientist, or anyone, may be in other things, when his own reputation
or
| >| interest is at stake, he can become quite dogmatic, irrational, even
| >| reckless, or take a shortcut.
| >|
| >| "It seems a reasonable, not to say trite, thought that scientists are
| >| human, subject to the same frailties as we all are, heroic, cowardly,
| >| honest and sly, silly and sensible in about the same measure, expert in
| >| some fields, but not in many," writes consultant Roy Herbert in New
| >| Scientist. Though this view may not be held universally in the world of
| >| science, he adds, "I find no difficulty in accepting that."
| >
| >Produce the evidence.

| Probably this:

I said "Produce the evidence", I did not say "probably produce the
evidence", *****.

You seem to have an anger, and reading, problem. I am sorry for that.
You do realize, don't you, that even if the various institutions would
release their 17th century documents, the evidence you request, it is
kind of hard to distribute them via the Usenet.
--
Matt Silberstein
Do something today about the Darfur Genocide
http://www.beawitness.org
http://www.darfurgenocide.org
http://www.savedarfur.org
"Darfur: A Genocide We can Stop"
.
User: "BullDozer"

Title: Re: Isaac Newton: cheated????????? 29 Sep 2006 02:40:14 PM
Matt Silberstein wrote:

| Probably this:

I said "Produce the evidence", I did not say "probably produce the
evidence", *****.


You seem to have an anger, and reading, problem. I am sorry for that.
You do realize, don't you, that even if the various institutions would
release their 17th century documents, the evidence you request, it is
kind of hard to distribute them via the Usenet.

He sounds like Carolyn Gulley long lost son... the son the coat hanger
missed.
.
User: "Warren McLaughlin"

Title: Re: Isaac Newton: cheated????????? Antonio Santana tosses Revis out of house when coathanger failed! 29 Sep 2006 03:30:55 PM
"BullDozer" <geister@mailinator.com> wrote in message
news:1159558813.993667.168750@b28g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
is sociopth Antonio L Santana aka Jabriol, Jehovah's Witness net stalker of
TN family.
Antonio L. Santana aka Jabriol resides at:
1064 Everett Street, Camden, NJ, (856) 968-0004
He and Norma attend the Spanish Speaking congragation
of Jehovahs Witnesses in Camden NJ
Here's the proof you want your victim Carol DEAD Antonio!
----- Original Message --- one of many similar messages:
From: "Jabriol" <jabriol1@excite.com> Antonio L Santana
news:9e9431eb.0408131047.227f1e7@posting.google.com
Sent: Saturday, August 14, 2004 2:45 AM message inciting murder:

youre doomed.. you know it.
Help put this woman out of her misery (i.e. kill her)

(*Mr Santana then provides his victim's name, address and phone number to
anyone interested in his offer)
Call the FBI and the Police Antonio. Do it now and explain your endless
harassment, stalking, slander, threats, posting your victims PI on Usenet
and more.
You have no excuse Antonio, here's the numbers to call to report all the
murders, child-porn and prostitution you've accused this family of:
FBI Memphis
Suite 3000, Eagle Crest Bldg.
225 North Humphreys Blvd.
Memphis, Tennessee 38120-2107
memphis.fbi.gov
(901) 747-4300
Murfreesboro Police-Detectives
302 S Church St,
Murfreesboro, 37130
(615) 893-2717
==============


He sounds like Carolyn Gulley long lost son... the son the coat hanger
missed.

And if the coat hanger worked you wouldn't have had to throw Revis Santana,
your daughter, out of your house after the rape........
.

User: "Sorcerer"

Title: Re: Isaac Newton: cheated????????? 29 Sep 2006 05:29:03 PM
"BullDozer" <geister@mailinator.com> wrote in message
news:1159558813.993667.168750@b28g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
|
| Matt Silberstein wrote:
| > >| Probably this:
| > >
| > >I said "Produce the evidence", I did not say "probably produce the
| > >evidence", *****.
| >
| > You seem to have an anger, and reading, problem.
Hahaha!
You definitely have a reading problem, you don't even know
who wrote what!
Try snipping less, you might even figure out out.
Androcles
.

User: "Henry Mankinna"

Title: Re: Isaac Newton: cheated????????? 29 Sep 2006 07:22:21 PM
"BullDozer" (Antonio L Santana/Jabriol) <geister@mailinator.com> wrote in
message news:1159558813.993667.168750@b28g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...


He sounds like Carolyn Gulley long lost son... the son the coat hanger
missed.

Wow!! Another fine "WITNESS" from Antonio Santana aka Jabriol, a Jehovah's
Witness all the other JWs are ashamed of and try to cover and make excuses
for. Uh, only low-life trash such as yourself abort babies Antonio. The
rest of us want our children. Too bad you were so disadvantaged you had to
have Norma abort yours...........
.





User: "AJAY SHARMA"

Title: Re: Isaac Newton: cheated????????? 29 Sep 2006 11:10:13 AM
Xavier Harkonnen wrote:

Isaac Newton is often called the father of modern physics for his
pioneering work on the theory of universal gravitation. The idea, when
published in his famous treatise Philosophiae Naturalis Principia
Mathematica (Mathematical Principles of Natural Philosophy), was
strongly opposed by some contemporary scientists, including the German
mathematician Gottfried Leibniz. This resulted in an extended feud
between them that was not put to rest until the end of their lives.

Writing in Science, Richard S. Westfall asserted that, to strengthen his
position, Newton made some "adjustments" in the Principia so that his
calculations and measurements would more closely support his theory,
making it more convincing. In one example, accuracy of one part in 3,000
was claimed, and in another his computations were carried to seven
decimal places, something quite unheard of in those days. "If the
Principia established the quantitative pattern of modern science," wrote
Westfall, "it equally suggested a less sublime truth-that no one can
manipulate the fudge factor so effectively as the master mathematician
himself."

Newton allowed himself to be drawn into another controversy that
eventually got the better of him. To claim priority over Leibniz for the
invention of calculus, according to the Encyclop=E6dia Britannica, Newton,
as president of the esteemed Royal Society, "appointed an 'impartial'
committee [made up mostly of his adherents] to investigate the issue,
secretly wrote the report officially published by the society, and
reviewed it anonymously in the Philosophical Transactions," thus
crediting himself with the honor.

That a man of Newton's stature would resort to such tactics is indeed a
paradox. It clearly shows that conscientious and honorable though a
scientist, or anyone, may be in other things, when his own reputation or
interest is at stake, he can become quite dogmatic, irrational, even
reckless, or take a shortcut.

"It seems a reasonable, not to say trite, thought that scientists are
human, subject to the same frailties as we all are, heroic, cowardly,
honest and sly, silly and sensible in about the same measure, expert in
some fields, but not in many," writes consultant Roy Herbert in New
Scientist. Though this view may not be held universally in the world of
science, he adds, "I find no difficulty in accepting that."

Could you please to give references of the information and write to
Royal Society, London .
Then whatever is the reponse can be discussed here.
If you choose to hvae enough patience and I have so done in case of
Einstein so I know it.
My work on Einstein is available at
Book 100 Years of E=3Dmc2
For details
https://www.novapublishers.com/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=3D23_48_324&p=
roducts_id=3D4554
AJAY SHARMA
.

User: ""

Title: Re: Isaac Newton: cheated????????? 29 Sep 2006 02:22:55 PM
Xavier Harkonnen wrote:

Isaac Newton is often called the father of modern physics for his
pioneering work on the theory of universal gravitation. The idea, when
published in his famous treatise Philosophiae Naturalis Principia
Mathematica (Mathematical Principles of Natural Philosophy), was
strongly opposed by some contemporary scientists, including the German
mathematician Gottfried Leibniz. This resulted in an extended feud
between them that was not put to rest until the end of their lives.

Actually, the feud between Newton and Leibniz had nothing to do with
universal gravitation. It was a feud, promoted mainly by the people
around Newton and Leibniz, on credit for the invention of Calculus.
It was generally agreed that Newton had come up with the idea first; he
was slow to publish, however, and Leibniz beat him to it. Leibniz
claimed to have discovered the notions independently, but Newton's
friends accused him of plagiarism (Leibniz had visited England in his
capacity as factotum to Georg Ludwig, who later became George I of
England), claiming he had seen some of Newton's papers several years
before publishing.
The feud was instigated by Newton's friends rather than Newton;
originally, both had more or less agreed that they had come upon the
basic ideas independently. The feud would eventually lead Newton to use
his position to sever ties between the English scientific community and
the continental one, to the great detriment of the former (their
insistence on using Newton's notation rather than Leibniz's far
superior notation, for example).
You can see a very good discussion of the dispute on wikipedia,
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Newton_v._Leibniz_calculus_controversy
In any case, to suggest that the feud was somehow based on the
disagreements surrounding universal gravitation is at best confusing
and at words dishonest.
Arturo Magidin, sans .sig
.

User: "Gene Ward Smith"

Title: Re: Isaac Newton: cheated????????? 29 Sep 2006 02:36:44 PM
Xavier Harkonnen wrote:

Isaac Newton is often called the father of modern physics for his
pioneering work on the theory of universal gravitation. The idea, when
published in his famous treatise Philosophiae Naturalis Principia
Mathematica (Mathematical Principles of Natural Philosophy), was
strongly opposed by some contemporary scientists, including the German
mathematician Gottfried Leibniz. This resulted in an extended feud
between them that was not put to rest until the end of their lives.

The Leibniz feud was over who invented calculus. Leibniz did criticize
some of Newton's ideas. For instance, Newton postulated absolute space
and time, and Leibniz contended that was incoherent, and that space and
time were relational. Leibniz won that one, but Newton's point of view
was very helpful at the time.
In physics, Leibniz critiqued and tried to develop the ideas of
Descartes, but after Newton entered the picture he didn't continue with
the subject aside from crtitiquing the philosophical
underpinnings--absolute space and time, and action at a distance with
no mechanism--of Newtonian physics.
.

User: "MarkA"

Title: Re: ToBs: Contradictions in science 29 Sep 2006 10:43:56 AM
On Fri, 29 Sep 2006 07:43:16 -0700, BullDozer wrote:


Joe Bednorz wrote:>

And eventually come up with an explanation that not only fits, it
makes successful predictions.



Sometimes, Idealistically, one might expect that the dedicated scientist
would press forward undaunted until the truth is found. But the fact of
the matter is that generally we know very little about what goes on behind
closed laboratory doors. Is there reason to believe that those engaged in
scientific pursuits are less influenced by the baser human characteristics
such as prejudice, rivalry, ambition and greed?

"Personal preferences and human emotions are said to be suppressed by the
scientist in the interest of securing truth," wrote Michael Mahoney in
Psychology Today. "However, the annals of both early and contemporary
science suggest that this portrayal is less than accurate."

Certainly, scientists are no less human than anyone else; they have their
vanities, jealousies, prejudices, etc, etc. However, the fruits of their
labor (hypotheses and theories) are subject to scrutiny by their peers,
who hopefully have *different* prejudices. In that way, they try to get
to the "objective truth" with as high a signal-to-noise ratio as possible.
--
MarkA
(still caught in the maze of twisty little passages, all different)
.
User: "BullDozer"

Title: Peer review? was Re: ToBs: Contradictions in science 29 Sep 2006 11:16:40 AM
MarkA wrote:


Certainly, scientists are no less human than anyone else; they have their
vanities, jealousies, prejudices, etc, etc. However, the fruits of their
labor (hypotheses and theories) are subject to scrutiny by their peers,

Like Piltdown man :-) What, though, about the supposedly close-knit,
self-correcting and self-policing structure of science-the processes
of review, refereeing and replication?
the scrutiny by their peers?
In the wake of the widely publicized recent series of frauds in
prestigious research institutes, the Association of American Medical
Colleges issued a report setting out guidelines on how to deal with
fraud in research. The report, in essence, maintained that "the
overwhelming probability that fraudulent data will be detected soon
after their presentation" is a safeguard against unethical practices.
This assessment, however, did not sit well with many others, both
inside and outside the scientific community. For example, a New York
Times editorial, calling the report "a shallow diagnosis of science
fraud," pointed out that "none of the frauds was originally brought
to light through the standard mechanisms by which scientists check each
other's work."
In fact, a member of the report committee, Dr. Arnold S. Relman, who is
also an editor of The New England Journal of Medicine, likewise
disagreed with the report's conclusion. "What kind of protection
against fraud does peer review offer?" he asked. "Little or
none." To back up his argument, Relman continued: "Fraudulent work
was published in peer-reviewed journals, some with very exacting
standards. In the case of the two papers we published, no suggestion of
dishonesty was raised by any of the referees or editors."
.
User: "Arturo Magidin"

Title: Re: Peer review? was Re: ToBs: Contradictions in science 29 Sep 2006 11:28:35 AM
In article <1159546600.497168.214440@m7g2000cwm.googlegroups.com>,
BullDozer <geister@mailinator.com> wrote:


MarkA wrote:


Certainly, scientists are no less human than anyone else; they have their
vanities, jealousies, prejudices, etc, etc. However, the fruits of their
labor (hypotheses and theories) are subject to scrutiny by their peers,


Like Piltdown man :-) What, though, about the supposedly close-knit,
self-correcting and self-policing structure of science-the processes
of review, refereeing and replication?
the scrutiny by their peers?

Who first expressed doubts about Piltdown man?
Who finally exposed Piltdown man as a fraud?

In the wake of the widely publicized recent series of frauds in
prestigious research institutes,

Who first exposed those frauds? Not who publicized them, but who was
the first to say "This is fraud"? And how did they show it was fraud?
[...]

In fact, a member of the report committee, Dr. Arnold S. Relman, who is
also an editor of The New England Journal of Medicine, likewise
disagreed with the report's conclusion. "What kind of protection
against fraud does peer review offer?" he asked. "Little or
none." To back up his argument, Relman continued: "Fraudulent work
was published in peer-reviewed journals, some with very exacting
standards. In the case of the two papers we published, no suggestion of
dishonesty was raised by any of the referees or editors."

I agree that peer review by itself does not offer "protection against
fraud", as peer review is not in general designed to detect fraud;
editors are ->certainly<- not paid to investigate whether reported
results are fraudulent or not.
Peer review is but one part of the process whereby science polices
itself. It is a first goalkeeper, and it is designed, to ensure, among
other things, that the results, if published, will be published in
such a way as to permit scrutiny and verification by others. The
referee is not expected to repeat an experiment to check for
repeatability: he is expected to ensure that the writer provides
enough information to allow anyone who cares to do so to attempt to
repeat the experiment and check the data. The editor is in charge of
selecting good referees, to arbitrate disagreements between referees
and authors, and to generally administer the journal and ensure it
meets its editorial policy.
All in all, science is not only ->the<- if most successful human
endeavor, it is also the endeavor most successful in policing and
correcting itself when needed. There is simply ->no<- better way for a
scientist to make his name and become famous than to challenge an
established view... provided he has the evidence to back it up.
--
======================================================================
"It's not denial. I'm just very selective about
what I accept as reality."
--- Calvin ("Calvin and Hobbes" by Bill Watterson)
======================================================================
Arturo Magidin
magidin-at-member-ams-org
.
User: "Xavier Harkonnen"

Title: Re: Peer review? was Re: ToBs: Contradictions in science 29 Sep 2006 05:47:30 PM
Arturo Magidin wrote:

In article <1159546600.497168.214440@m7g2000cwm.googlegroups.com>,
BullDozer <geister@mailinator.com> wrote:

MarkA wrote:

Certainly, scientists are no less human than anyone else; they have their
vanities, jealousies, prejudices, etc, etc. However, the fruits of their
labor (hypotheses and theories) are subject to scrutiny by their peers,

Like Piltdown man :-) What, though, about the supposedly close-knit,
self-correcting and self-policing structure of science-the processes
of review, refereeing and replication?
the scrutiny by their peers?


Who first expressed doubts about Piltdown man?

Who finally exposed Piltdown man as a fraud?


After how long half a century?
.
User: "Vince E. Edwards"

Title: Re: Peer review? was Re: ToBs: Contradictions in science 02 Oct 2006 05:38:59 PM
"Xavier Harkonnen" <GeidiPrime@gamu.org> wrote in message
news:6ohTg.279$Pk2.206@trnddc08...
is the dangerous sociopth Antonio L Santana aka Jabriol, Jehovah's Witness
net stalker of TN family. Mr Santana told all of usenet about the rapes of
Norma and Revis and blamed this TN family. He told us all his family dirt
and blamed others.
Antonio L. Santana aka Jabriol resides at:
1064 Everett Street, Camden, NJ, (856) 968-0004
He and Norma attend the Spanish Speaking congragation
of Jehovahs Witnesses in Camden NJ
Here's the proof Antonio L Santana, known stalker and sociopath wants his
victim Carol DEAD!
----- Original Message --- one of many similar messages:
From: "Jabriol" <jabriol1@excite.com> Antonio L Santana
news:9e9431eb.0408131047.227f1e7@posting.google.com
Sent: Saturday, August 14, 2004 2:45 AM message inciting murder:

youre doomed.. you know it.
Help put this woman out of her misery (i.e. kill her)

(*Mr Santana then provides his victim's name, address and phone number to
anyone interested in his offer)
Call the FBI and the Police Antonio. Do it now and explain your endless
harassment, stalking, slander, threats, posting your victims PI on Usenet
and more.
You have no excuse Antonio, here's the numbers to call to report all the
murders, child-porn and prostitution you've accused this family of:
FBI Memphis
Suite 3000, Eagle Crest Bldg.
225 North Humphreys Blvd.
Memphis, Tennessee 38120-2107
memphis.fbi.gov
(901) 747-4300
Murfreesboro Police-Detectives
302 S Church St,
Murfreesboro, 37130
(615) 893-2717
.

User: "Arturo Magidin"

Title: Re: Peer review? was Re: ToBs: Contradictions in science 30 Sep 2006 02:43:54 PM
In article <6ohTg.279$Pk2.206@trnddc08>,
Xavier Harkonnen <GeidiPrime@gamu.org> wrote:

Arturo Magidin wrote:

In article <1159546600.497168.214440@m7g2000cwm.googlegroups.com>,
BullDozer <geister@mailinator.com> wrote:

MarkA wrote:

Certainly, scientists are no less human than anyone else; they have their
vanities, jealousies, prejudices, etc, etc. However, the fruits of their
labor (hypotheses and theories) are subject to scrutiny by their peers,

Like Piltdown man :-) What, though, about the supposedly close-knit,
self-correcting and self-policing structure of science-the processes
of review, refereeing and replication?
the scrutiny by their peers?


Who first expressed doubts about Piltdown man?

Who finally exposed Piltdown man as a fraud?



After how long half a century?

The doubts were expressed from the very beginning. The bothersome
nature of Piltdown man was consistently pointed out by scientists
almost from the very moment its "discovery" was announced.
And, in the end, it was only scientists who raised objections, and it
was scientists who discovered and established the fraud.
How long did it take, say, religion, to actually figure out they had
done Galileo wrong? Half a century?
--
======================================================================
"It's not denial. I'm just very selective about
what I accept as reality."
--- Calvin ("Calvin and Hobbes" by Bill Watterson)
======================================================================
Arturo Magidin
magidin-at-member-ams-org
.

User: "Lucifer"

Title: Re: Peer review? was Re: ToBs: Contradictions in science 29 Sep 2006 06:11:29 PM
Xavier Harkonnen wrote:

Arturo Magidin wrote:

In article <1159546600.497168.214440@m7g2000cwm.googlegroups.com>,
BullDozer <geister@mailinator.com> wrote:

MarkA wrote:

Certainly, scientists are no less human than anyone else; they have their
vanities, jealousies, prejudices, etc, etc. However, the fruits of their
labor (hypotheses and theories) are subject to scrutiny by their peers,

Like Piltdown man :-) What, though, about the supposedly close-knit,
self-correcting and self-policing structure of science-the processes
of review, refereeing and replication?
the scrutiny by their peers?


Who first expressed doubts about Piltdown man?

Who finally exposed Piltdown man as a fraud?



After how long half a century?

Piltdown man was a real thorn in the side of evolution, it was the
anomaly that undermined the theory. Evolutionary science benefited from
it's debunking. We have Lucy etc for real missing links (as well as
Jabriol)
.
User: "Ironweed"

Title: Re: Peer review? was Re: ToBs: Contradictions in science 29 Sep 2006 07:25:53 PM
"Lucifer" <wyrdology@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1159571489.892587.43430@b28g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...


Piltdown man was a real thorn in the side of evolution, it was the
anomaly that undermined the theory. Evolutionary science benefited from
it's debunking. We have Lucy etc for real missing links (as well as
Jabriol)

The fundies and the ignorant and dishonest use that ONE case of fraud to
toss all the other evidence out. What would they ever do without it? :-D
--
IWeed.........
Here you will find clinical studies proving that the Jehovah's Witnesses
exhibit rates of mental illness between four and forty times the average
for the population at large:
http://www.rickross.com/reference/jw/jw73.html
http://google.com/groups?selm=D3J0QI5Z38234.4565046296@anonymous.poster
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
.



User: "Joe Bednorz"

Title: Re: Peer review? was Re: ToBs: Contradictions in science 29 Sep 2006 02:28:42 PM
On Fri, 29 Sep 2006 16:28:35 +0000 (UTC), Arturo Magidin wrote:

In article <1159546600.497168.214440@m7g2000cwm.googlegroups.com>,
BullDozer <geister@mailinator.com> wrote:


MarkA wrote:


Certainly, scientists are no less human than anyone else; they have their
vanities, jealousies, prejudices, etc, etc. However, the fruits of their
labor (hypotheses and theories) are subject to scrutiny by their peers,


Like Piltdown man :-) What, though, about the supposedly close-knit,
self-correcting and self-policing structure of science-the processes
of review, refereeing and replication?
the scrutiny by their peers?


Who first expressed doubts about Piltdown man?

Who finally exposed Piltdown man as a fraud?

In the wake of the widely publicized recent series of frauds in
prestigious research institutes,


Who first exposed those frauds? Not who publicized them, but who was
the first to say "This is fraud"? And how did they show it was fraud?

[...]

In fact, a member of the report committee, Dr. Arnold S. Relman, who is
also an editor of The New England Journal of Medicine, likewise
disagreed with the report's conclusion. "What kind of protection
against fraud does peer review offer?" he asked. "Little or
none." To back up his argument, Relman continued: "Fraudulent work
was published in peer-reviewed journals, some with very exacting
standards. In the case of the two papers we published, no suggestion of
dishonesty was raised by any of the referees or editors."


I agree that peer review by itself does not offer "protection against
fraud", as peer review is not in general designed to detect fraud;
editors are ->certainly<- not paid to investigate whether reported
results are fraudulent or not.

Peer review is but one part of the process whereby science polices
itself. It is a first goalkeeper, and it is designed, to ensure, among
other things, that the results, if published, will be published in
such a way as to permit scrutiny and verification by others. The
referee is not expected to repeat an experiment to check for
repeatability: he is expected to ensure that the writer provides
enough information to allow anyone who cares to do so to attempt to
repeat the experiment and check the data. The editor is in charge of
selecting good referees, to arbitrate disagreements between referees
and authors, and to generally administer the journal and ensure it
meets its editorial policy.

All in all, science is not only ->the<- if most successful human
endeavor, it is also the endeavor most successful in policing and
correcting itself when needed. There is simply ->no<- better way for a
scientist to make his name and become famous than to challenge an
established view... provided he has the evidence to back it up.

Thank you for posting that clear and well-reasoned explanation.
Mis-information and dis-information can only be combatted with
information. (Even then it cannot be well-combatted, but we do the best
we can.)
--
Gravity is only a theory.
All the Best,
Joe Bednorz
--
SF at Project Gutenberg: <http://thethunderchild.com/Books/OutofCopyright.html>
Baen Free Online SciFi: <http://www.baen.com/library/>
Baen Free SciFi CDs <http://files.plebian.net/baencd/>
SciFi.com classic/original: <http://www.scifi.com/scifiction/archive.html>
Free SF samples from Baen and Tor: <http://www.webscription.net/catalog.asp>
All the best, Joe Bednorz
.



User: "Xavier Harkonnen"

Title: Re: ToBs: Contradictions in science 29 Sep 2006 06:20:01 PM
MarkA wrote:

Certainly, scientists are no less human than anyone else; they have their
vanities, jealousies, prejudices, etc, etc. However, the fruits of their
labor (hypotheses and theories) are subject to scrutiny by their peers,
who hopefully have *different* prejudices. In that way, they try to get
to the "objective truth" with as high a signal-to-noise ratio as possible.

Let be more realistic, by today standards this means for the researchers
is that the emphasis has been shifted from quality to quantity—the
‘publish or perish’ mentality. Even established scientists often find
themselves more occupied with raising funds to keep their expensive
laboratories going than with working in them. What this means for the
researchers is that the emphasis has been shifted from quality to
quantity—the ‘publish or perish’ mentality. Even established scientists
often find themselves more occupied with raising funds to keep their
expensive laboratories going than with working in them. This was what
led to the downfall of a doctor who was receiving over half a million
dollars in grants.
This man was given a paper to check that was sent to his busy supervisor
for prepublication review. The paper happened to deal with a subject on
which he was also working. Rather than giving an honest appraisal of the
paper and taking the risk of losing his claim to priority, and perhaps
the grant along with it, the doctor hurriedly touched up his experiment,
plagiarized some material from the other paper and submitted his own
work for publication.
This man was given a paper to check that was sent to his busy supervisor
for prepublication review. The paper happened to deal with a subject on
which he was also working. Rather than giving an honest appraisal of the
paper and taking the risk of losing his claim to priority, and perhaps
the grant along with it, the doctor hurriedly touched up his experiment,
plagiarized some material from the other paper and submitted his own
work for publication.
Actually the pressure to succeed is felt early along in the life of
aspiring scientists, especially those in the medical field. “Stories of
cheating among premedical students are common,” said Robert Ebert,
former dean of Harvard Medical School, “and the race for high grades so
as to insure admission to medical school is hardly designed to encourage
ethical and humanitarian behavior.”
This early conditioning is easily carried over into the professional
career where the pressure is even more intense. “In an environment which
can ever permit success to become a more coveted commodity than ethical
conduct, even the angels may fall,” lamented Ebert.
.


User: "Matt Silberstein"

Title: Re: ToBs: Contradictions in science 29 Sep 2006 01:45:24 PM
On Fri, 29 Sep 2006 13:49:13 GMT, in alt.atheism , Xavier Harkonnen
<GeidiPrime@gamu.org> in <tv9Tg.1$Pk2.0@trnddc08> wrote:

PEERING down the microscope, the scientist jumped at what he saw.
“Eureka!” he shouted. And another great scientific discovery was made.

That is the sort of thing we are taught to believe about the triumphs of
science.

For a third grade level, sure.

Recall your elementary-school science class for a moment.
Remember the great heroes in science’s hall of fame? Men like Galileo,
Newton, Darwin and Einstein are extolled not only for their scientific
achievements but also for their virtues—objectivity, dedication,
honesty, humility, and so forth.

In elementary school they present everyone that way. Do you want to
claim that it is less correct about scientists than, say politicians?
Do they tell elementary school children that Washington owned slaves?
That so many "great" Americans eagerly committed genocide on Native
Americans?

The impression was that by the sheer
force of their superior intelligence and rational mind, the mysteries of
nature just unveiled themselves and the truth simply popped out in front
of them.

Well, the impression should also be of the value of the process of
going and looking, building theories, and then looking again to test
those theories.

In reality, however, things are not quite that simple.

Yes, little in life is as simple was what we learn in elementary
school. Sit down with a mathematician some day and ask for the long
lecture on 1 + 1. But wait until you have a very long time to listen.

In most cases,
scientists must spend months or years laboring in the laboratories,
struggling with results that often are confusing, puzzling and even
contradictory.

Contradictory or just apparently? That was your subject but you failed
to provide any actual support. Some of us require more now than we did
when in elementary school.
--
Matt Silberstein
Do something today about the Darfur Genocide
http://www.beawitness.org
http://www.darfurgenocide.org
http://www.savedarfur.org
"Darfur: A Genocide We can Stop"
.

User: "Lucifer"

Title: Re: ToBs: Contradictions in science 29 Sep 2006 03:32:40 PM
Xavier Harkonnen wrote:

PEERING down the microscope, the scientist jumped at what he saw.
"Eureka!" he shouted. And Jabriol was discovered.

--
Lucifer, EAC Librarian of Dark Tomes of Excessive Evil and General
Purpose Igor
"Don't worry, I won't bite.......hard"
.

User: "Jordan"

Title: Re: ToBs: Contradictions in science 29 Sep 2006 11:57:15 AM
Xavier Harkonnen wrote:

PEERING down the microscope, the scientist jumped at what he saw.
"Eureka!" he shouted. And another great scientific discovery was made.

That is the sort of thing we are taught to believe about the triumphs of
science. Recall your elementary-school science class for a moment.
Remember the great heroes in science's hall of fame? Men like Galileo,
Newton, Darwin and Einstein are extolled not only for their scientific
achievements but also for their virtues-objectivity, dedication,
honesty, humility, and so forth. The impression was that by the sheer
force of their superior intelligence and rational mind, the mysteries of
nature just unveiled themselves and the truth simply popped out in front
of them.

In reality, however, things are not quite that simple. In most cases,
scientists must spend months or years laboring in the laboratories,
struggling with results that often are confusing, puzzling and even
contradictory.

Well, in reality the "Eureka!" moment, if it ever comes at all, usually
comes as the climax to those "months and years" of "laboring in the
laboratories." And it's usually a lot of mini-Eurekas from a lot of
researchers who publish and read each others' results, rather than One
Lone Genius.
- Jordan
.
User: "Mike Schilling"

Title: Re: ToBs: Contradictions in science 29 Sep 2006 01:29:00 PM
"Jordan" <JSBassior2001@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1159549035.117878.241210@e3g2000cwe.googlegroups.com...


Well, in reality the "Eureka!" moment, if it ever comes at all, usually
comes as the climax to those "months and years" of "laboring in the
laboratories." And it's usually a lot of mini-Eurekas from a lot of
researchers who publish and read each others' results, rather than One
Lone Genius.

You coulod characfterize a lot of bad SF as being about The Lone Genius.
Some good stuff too, of course, like Sturgeon's "Microcosmic God".
.



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