TOBS: Science and the Future


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Topic: Religions > Atheism
User: "FireBirdBlue"
Date: 14 Sep 2006 04:28:07 AM
Object: TOBS: Science and the Future
R. Pierce Butler wrote:


You can believe what your want and so can everyone else. That still
doesn't prove that God exists.

Try again

Also, science cannot foresee the future. It cannot even foresee the
results of its own discoveries. When DDT was developed, for example, it
was hoped that this new weapon would forever solve the problem of
insect pests. It would provide protection for plants and keep in check
those insects that spread diseases such as malaria. However, the German
newspaper Frankfurter Allgemeine Zeitung said that this "blessing for
mankind . . . an undreamed-of achievement for chemistry" later
became "a rather questionable blessing. . . . DDT's victory march
through Germany is over." And not only in Germany but also in many
other countries where its use has been banned. Science failed to
foresee the negative effects it would have on other forms of life,
including man.
Remember, too, Alfred Nobel, after whom the Nobel peace prize is named.
He was a man of peace, yet he invented dynamite. Why? He wrote to a
friend: "I should like to invent a substance or machine with such
terrible power of mass destruction that war would thereby be made
impossible for ever." Two world wars since Nobel's death have
proved that his invention failed to have the effect he hoped for.
Albert Einstein also hoped that the development of the atom bomb, based
largely upon his theories, would eliminate forever the danger of war.
Yet bitter wars are still being fought, and civilization finds itself
sitting on a nuclear powder keg, terrified that someone will light the
fuse. Shortly before he died, Einstein is reported to have said: "If
I had only known, I would have been a locksmith."
It is sadly ironic that science, which has improved the lives of so
many millions, has also provided the means by which man can destroy
himself. If only scientists could foretell the future! They cannot, of
course, but the Bible does.
.

User: "=?iso-8859-1?B?fiBT5GJs6yB+?="

Title: Re: TOBS: Science and the Future 15 Sep 2006 01:08:35 PM
"Bob Kolker" <nowhere@nowhere.com> wrote in message
news:4n02fjF8830nU1@individual.net...

~ Säblë ~ wrote:>

The story of Adam and Eve and the talking animals is equally
nonsensical.......


Genesis is where the Adam and Chayah story is. Talking asses occur in the
Book of Number (Ba Midbar) in parshat Balak. Bilam's talking ***** is
probably part of a dream sequence. Asses don't talk.

Oh but the Jehovah's Witnesses (JWs) will tell you differently. They claim
Jah "put the words in their mouths." If an ***** or snake suddenly spoke to
any human being other than an imbecile, the person would hardly commence to
think nothing of it and proceed to hold a conversation with the
animal/snake/*****/whatever. Some people get to SEE these things and free
themselves from religious tyranny. Others must cling to their sky daddy for
all they're worth.
--
SA..........
Here you will find clinical studies proving that the Jehovah's Witnesses
exhibit rates of mental illness between four and forty times the average
for the population at large:
http://www.rickross.com/reference/jw/jw73.html
http://google.com/groups?selm=D3J0QI5Z38234.4565046296@anonymous.poster
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
.

User: "cactus"

Title: Re: TOBS: Science and the Future 15 Sep 2006 12:05:23 PM
Bob Kolker wrote:

~ Säblë ~ wrote:>

The story of Adam and Eve and the talking animals is equally
nonsensical.......


Genesis is where the Adam and Chayah story is. Talking asses occur in
the Book of Number (Ba Midbar) in parshat Balak. Bilam's talking ***** is
probably part of a dream sequence. Asses don't talk.

IKHDY isn't an *****?


Bob Kolker

.
User: "Bob Kolker"

Title: Re: TOBS: Science and the Future 15 Sep 2006 01:07:45 PM
cactus wrote:

IKHDY isn't an *****?

Who or what is IKHDY?
Bob Kolker
.
User: "cactus"

Title: Re: TOBS: Science and the Future 15 Sep 2006 01:22:07 PM
Bob Kolker wrote:

cactus wrote:


IKHDY isn't an *****?


Who or what is IKHDY?

Bob Kolker

IKnowHimDoYou
He's the one who posts all those Christian superiority screeds.
.



User: "LastPlanetStanding"

Title: Re: TOBS: Science and the Future 15 Sep 2006 05:48:19 PM
Bob Kolker wrote:

WhiteDwarf wrote:


Not at all. The Bible understood in it original language would tell
you the world and life on it is a few millions years old. Please don't
parrot YEC.


I read the Bible in Hebrew. In any language, the Creation story is
literally nonsensical. The word Yom in hebrew means day. The twenty four
hour variety. Erev and Boker means evening and morning. But require a
sunrise (or more exactly, an earth-turn). So their could not have been
an evening and a morning on days one to three.

Many Jewish Scholars disagree with you, The Hebrew word yohm, translated
“day,” can mean different lengths of time. Among the meanings possible,
William Wilson’s Old Testament Word Studies includes the following: “A
day; it is frequently put for time in general, or for a long time; a
whole period under consideration . . . Day is also put for a particular
season or time when any extraordinary event happens. This last sentence
appears to fit the creative “days,” for certainly they were periods when
extraordinary events were described as happening. It also allows for
periods much longer than 24 hours.
Genesis chapter 1 uses the expressions “evening” and “morning” relative
to the creative periods. Does this not indicate that they were 24 hours
long? Not necessarily. In some places people often refer to a man’s
lifetime as his “day.” They speak of “my father’s day” or “in
Shakespeare’s day.” They may divide up that lifetime “day,” saying “in
the morning [or dawn] of his life” or “in the evening [or twilight] of
his life.” So ‘evening and morning’ in Genesis chapter 1 does not limit
the meaning to a literal 24 hours.
“Day” as used in the Bible can include summer and winter, the passing
of seasons. (Zechariah 14:8) “The day of harvest” involves many days.
(Compare Proverbs 25:13 and Genesis 30:14.) A thousand years are likened
to a day. (Psalm 90:4; 2 Peter 3:8, 10) “Judgment Day” covers many
years. (Matthew 10:15; 11:22-24) It would seem reasonable that the
“days” of Genesis could likewise have embraced long periods of
time—millenniums. What, then, took place during those creative eras? Is
the Bible’s account of them scientific? Following is a review of these
“days” as expressed in Genesis.

And then we come to the Flood. There never was enough water on this
planet or in its atmospher to cover the earth to a depth of the highest
mountains plus fifteen cubits.

It has been said that if all the moisture in the atmosphere were
suddenly released as rain it would not amount to even a couple of inches
if spread over the earth’s surface. So from what source was this vast
deluge of Noah’s day? According to the Genesis account, God said to
Noah: “Here I [Jehovah] am bringing the deluge [or, “heavenly ocean”;
Heb., mab·bulâ€Č] of waters upon the earth.” (Ge 6:17, ftn) Describing
what happened, the next chapter says: “All the springs of the vast
watery deep were broken open and the floodgates of the heavens were
opened.” (Ge 7:11) So overwhelming was the Deluge that “all the tall
mountains that were under the whole heavens came to be covered.”—Ge 7:19.
Where did this “heavenly ocean” come from? The Genesis account of
creation tells how on the second “day” Jehovah made an expanse about the
earth, and this expanse (called “Heaven”) formed a division between the
waters below it, that is, the oceans, and the waters above it. (Ge
1:6-8) The waters suspended above the expanse evidently remained there
from the second “day” of creation until the Flood. This is what the
apostle Peter was talking about when he recounted that there “were
heavens from of old and an earth standing compactly out of water and in
the midst of water by the word of God.” Those “heavens” and the waters
above and beneath them were the means that God’s word called into
operation, and “by those means the world of that time suffered
destruction when it was deluged with water.” (2Pe 3:5, 6) Various
explanations have been offered as to how the water was held aloft until
the Flood and as to the processes that resulted in its falling. But
these are only speculative. The Bible says simply that God made the
expanse with waters above it and that he brought the Deluge. His
almighty power could easily accomplish it.
Since, as the Genesis account says, “all the tall mountains” were
covered with water, where is all that water now? Evidently it is right
here on the earth. It is believed that there was a time when the oceans
were smaller and the continents were larger than they are now, as is
evidenced by river channels extending far out under the oceans. It
should also be noted that scientists have stated that mountains in the
past were much lower than at present, and some mountains have even been
pushed up from under the seas. As to the present situation, it is said
that “there is ten times as much water by volume in the ocean as there
is land above sea level. Dump all this land evenly into the sea, and
water would cover the entire earth, one and one-half miles deep.”
(National Geographic, January 1945, p. 105) So, after the floodwaters
fell, but before the raising of mountains and the lowering of seabeds
and before the buildup of polar ice caps, there was more than enough
water to cover “all the tall mountains,” as the inspired record says.—Ge
7:19.
.
User: "Bob Kolker"

Title: Re: TOBS: Science and the Future 15 Sep 2006 08:04:47 PM
LastPlanetStanding wrote:

Where did this “heavenly ocean” come from? The Genesis account of
creation tells how on the second “day” Jehovah made an expanse about the
earth, and this expanse (called “Heaven”) formed a division between the
waters below it, that is, the oceans, and the waters above it. (Ge
1:6-8) The waters suspended above the expanse evidently remained there
from the second “day” of creation until the Flood. This is what the
apostle Peter was talking about when he recounted that there “were
heavens from of old and an earth standing compactly out of water and in
the midst of water by the word of God.” Those “heavens” and the waters
above and beneath them were the means that God’s word called into
operation, and “by those means the world of that time suffered
destruction when it was deluged with water.” (2Pe 3:5, 6) Various
explanations have been offered as to how the water was held aloft until
the Flood and as to the processes that resulted in its falling. But
these are only speculative. The Bible says simply that God made the
expanse with waters above it and that he brought the Deluge. His
almighty power could easily accomplish it.

It violates physical laws. Total nonsense.
The heavens can't open. Water can condense out of the atmosphere, but
beyond the atomospher is empty space. What is there to open. The Bible,
taken literally is nonsense or the childish tales told by bronze age
nomads to acount for their experiences. The bible was written by
primitive folk.
By the way, "In my father's day" would translate b'zman avee. Literally
in the time of my father. Learn some Hebrew.


Since, as the Genesis account says, “all the tall mountains” were
covered with water, where is all that water now? Evidently it is right
here on the earth. It is believed that there was a time when the oceans
were smaller and the continents were larger than they are now, as is

That is nonsense. In the beginning there was one big continent, maybe
before 300,000,000 ybp which seperated into the continents we know and
love by tektonic action.

evidenced by river channels extending far out under the oceans. It
should also be noted that scientists have stated that mountains in the
past were much lower than at present,

Nonsense. Mt. Everest has been within a few yards of its current height
since 5000 ybp. India collided with asia hundreds of millions of years
ago which pushed up the mountains. Since humans have been on this planet
(circa 250,000 years) the heights of the mountains have changed very little.
Get this straight. The bible taken literally is just plain nonsense. It
is a collection of myths.
If you take the bible literally as did Bishop Usher you get an earth age
of around 6000 years. The physical evidence indicates the planet is over
four -billion- (with a b) years old.
Bob Kolker
.
User: "=?UTF-8?B?fiBTw6RibMOrIH4=?="

Title: Re: TOBS: Science and the Future 15 Sep 2006 08:40:01 PM
"Bob Kolker" <nowhere@nowhere.com> wrote in message
news:4n0tfdF5g6orU1@individual.net...

LastPlanetStanding wrote:

The Bible says simply that God made the

expanse with waters above it and that he brought the Deluge. His almighty
power could easily accomplish it.


It violates physical laws. Total nonsense.

His "almighty power?" What a joke..... it took this old god Jehovah all
night to dislocate Jacob's leg. Jacob was a mere human. ALL NIGHT! Any
strong man can dislocate someone's leg in minutes. But then a Creationist
will believe anything including a small group of people were able to feed,
water and remove millions of tons of manure and urine from an Ark......
--
SA.........
"Precision" <precision@Usenet.com> wrote:
I'm not an authorized distributor or reseller, neither have
I been licensed to collect funds and distribute their CD.
From: "le ténébreux" <prince.d'aquitaine@tour.abolie>
I still haven't worked out how they can claim information
revealed to them by God for the benefit of all mankind as their
intellectual property subject to their own distribution rules. :-P
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~<~~{@
.
User: "FireCobraBlue"

Title: Re: TOBS: Science and the Future 15 Sep 2006 08:46:51 PM
~ S=E4bl=EB ~ wrote:

His "almighty power?" What a joke..... it took this old god Jehovah all
night to dislocate Jacob's leg.

Cats plays with their food before killing it.
.
User: "Wendalin"

Title: Re: TOBS: Science and the Future 17 Sep 2006 11:44:00 PM
"FireCobraBlue" <darth.gantz@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1158371210.951148.29670@h48g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
~ Säblë ~ wrote:

His "almighty power?" What a joke..... it took this old god Jehovah all
night to dislocate Jacob's leg.

Cats plays with their food before killing it.
What a sadistic brutal savage god to torture someone all night long before
finally dislocating their leg!
WE.......
"FireBirdBlue" aka "FireCobraBlue" is sociopath Antonio Santana JABRIOL
(Jehovahs Witness) <Xabriol@gmail.com>
wrote in message
news:1158551441.028967.254230@k70g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
Antonio Santana, Jehovahs Witness gives Usenet a fine Watchtower inspired
"Witness."

You can't even be a woman to your husband, and the sick poor soul has
to download porn so he can pop a boner with viagra.

====================================================
.



User: "Jabriol-Basic"

Title: Re: TOBS: Science and the Future 15 Sep 2006 07:58:50 PM
Bob Kolker wrote:

LastPlanetStanding wrote:

Where did this “heavenly ocean” come from? The Genesis account of
creation tells how on the second “day” Jehovah made an expanse about
the earth, and this expanse (called “Heaven”) formed a division
between the waters below it, that is, the oceans, and the waters above
it. (Ge 1:6-8) The waters suspended above the expanse evidently
remained there from the second “day” of creation until the Flood. This
is what the apostle Peter was talking about when he recounted that
there “were heavens from of old and an earth standing compactly out of
water and in the midst of water by the word of God.” Those “heavens”
and the waters above and beneath them were the means that God’s word
called into operation, and “by those means the world of that time
suffered destruction when it was deluged with water.” (2Pe 3:5, 6)
Various explanations have been offered as to how the water was held
aloft until the Flood and as to the processes that resulted in its
falling. But these are only speculative. The Bible says simply that
God made the expanse with waters above it and that he brought the
Deluge. His almighty power could easily accomplish it.


It violates physical laws. Total nonsense.

Prove it.
.
User: "Bob Kolker"

Title: Re: TOBS: Science and the Future 15 Sep 2006 10:05:29 PM
Jabriol-Basic wrote:


Prove it.

Astronomical ovbservation. No water above our atmosphere in the
immediate vicinity of earth. It ain't there.
The bible, read literally, contradicts thousands of facts gathered
empirically. Given a choice of believing a book written by bronze age
savages and the observations made by the best instruments, which will
you choose.
The earth is over four billion years old. It is not six thousand years
old. We are seeing the light of stars 10 billion light years from earth.
If the bible is to be taken literally all the stars were made at once,
including the sun. We could not possibly see galaxies ten billion light
years distance given the time scale of the bible.
If every drop of water on earth were placed in our atmospher and it
condensed out it could only fill the space where the oceans are. There
is not enough to cover the earth to a height of 30,000 feet (Mt. Everest
plus fifteen cubits). Work out the math assuming the earth is spherical
which it is to about one part in ten thousand. Add the ocean volume to a
hundred thousandth of the volume of our atmosphere (which is as much
water as the atmosphere will hold). There is still not enough water.
When bible stories collide with facts well established scientifically,
the bible stories must be discounted. They were written thousands of
years ago by people without a lick of science and only crude primitive
technology.
Bob Kolker
.
User: "=?iso-8859-1?B?S/ZpLUz2?="

Title: Re: TOBS: Science and the Future 15 Sep 2006 10:43:19 PM
"Bob Kolker" <nowhere@nowhere.com> wrote in message
news:4n14hnF88d74U1@individual.net...

Jabriol-Basic wrote:


Prove it.


Astronomical ovbservation. No water above our atmosphere in the immediate
vicinity of earth. It ain't there.

The bible, read literally, contradicts thousands of facts gathered
empirically. Given a choice of believing a book written by bronze age
savages and the observations made by the best instruments, which will you
choose.

They'll choose the myths of the Bronze Age savages. They have no choice.
If they accept the fact that the bible was indeed written by ignorant
savages then they lose their dream of going to Paradise and living in huts
carrying baskets of veggies forever. Just check out the Watchtower
literature.

The earth is over four billion years old. It is not six thousand years
old. We are seeing the light of stars 10 billion light years from earth.
If the bible is to be taken literally all the stars were made at once,
including the sun. We could not possibly see galaxies ten billion light
years distance given the time scale of the bible.

You're trying to reason with a creationist. It can't be done.

If every drop of water on earth were placed in our atmospher and it
condensed out it could only fill the space where the oceans are. There is
not enough to cover the earth to a height of 30,000 feet (Mt. Everest plus
fifteen cubits). Work out the math assuming the earth is spherical which
it is to about one part in ten thousand. Add the ocean volume to a hundred
thousandth of the volume of our atmosphere (which is as much water as the
atmosphere will hold). There is still not enough water.

But they'll tell you the windows of heaven opened and the water poured down
onto the earth. Windows of heaven? That's what the bible says.......

When bible stories collide with facts well established scientifically, the
bible stories must be discounted. They were written thousands of years ago
by people without a lick of science and only crude primitive technology.

You just burst his WT Paradise bubble.
--
SA......
Numbers 31:17-18 God commands Moses to kill all the Medianite people
including children and women. To top it off he commands that the virgins be
saved for later sexual abuse (concubinage & forced marriage) by Moses'
soldiers.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
.
User: "Bob Kolker"

Title: Re: TOBS: Science and the Future 16 Sep 2006 08:07:16 AM
Köi-Lö wrote:




You just burst his WT Paradise bubble.

Actually, I have not burst his bubble. He will keep on doing metnal
gymnastics to maintain his view that the Bible in some sense is true. If
reason and logic were efficacious this thread would not have appeared in
the twenty-first century.
Bob Kolker
.


User: "FireCobraBlue"

Title: Re: TOBS: Science and the Future 15 Sep 2006 10:58:05 PM
Bob Kolker wrote:

Jabriol-Basic wrote:


Prove it.


Astronomical ovbservation. No water above our atmosphere in the
immediate vicinity of earth. It ain't there.

That because it fell... you know "flood"

The bible, read literally, contradicts thousands of facts gathered
empirically. Given a choice of believing a book written by bronze age
savages and the observations made by the best instruments, which will
you choose.

The earth is over four billion years old. It is not six thousand years
old.

who said it was.
.
User: "Bob Kolker"

Title: Re: TOBS: Science and the Future 16 Sep 2006 08:11:16 AM
FireCobraBlue wrote:



who said it was.

The Rocks. Google <potassium argon dating>. The rocks do not lie and the
heeavens proclaim the handiwork of their Creator. The cosmos is at least
13 billion light years in diameter. If God said Let there be light, He
said it billyuns and billyuns of years ago. Not 6000 years (give or
take) as the Bible clearly implies. Google <Bishop Usher>
Bob Kolker
.
User: "Jabriol-Basic"

Title: Re: TOBS: Science and the Future 16 Sep 2006 07:54:03 AM
Bob Kolker wrote:

FireCobraBlue wrote:



who said it was.


The Rocks. Google <potassium argon dating>. The rocks do not lie and the
heeavens proclaim the handiwork of their Creator. The cosmos is at least
13 billion light years in diameter. If God said Let there be light, He
said it billyuns and billyuns of years ago. Not 6000 years (give or
take) as the Bible clearly implies. Google <Bishop Usher>

Bob Kolker

Your mindset is that the world was created 6,000 years ago... nit true.
.
User: "Bob Kolker"

Title: Re: TOBS: Science and the Future 16 Sep 2006 09:07:34 AM
Jabriol-Basic wrote:

Bob Kolker wrote:

FireCobraBlue wrote:



who said it was.



The Rocks. Google <potassium argon dating>. The rocks do not lie and
the heeavens proclaim the handiwork of their Creator. The cosmos is at
least 13 billion light years in diameter. If God said Let there be
light, He said it billyuns and billyuns of years ago. Not 6000 years
(give or take) as the Bible clearly implies. Google <Bishop Usher>

Bob Kolker


Your mindset is that the world was created 6,000 years ago... nit true.

Excuse me. I am telling you that the Earth was formed out of debris and
gases about four and a half billion years ago. It was formed from the
same nebula of gases and debris as our sun.
Bob Kolker
.
User: "Jabriol-Basic"

Title: Re: TOBS: Science and the Future 17 Sep 2006 08:25:49 AM
Bob Kolker wrote:

Jabriol-Basic wrote:

Bob Kolker wrote:

FireCobraBlue wrote:



who said it was.



The Rocks. Google <potassium argon dating>. The rocks do not lie and
the heeavens proclaim the handiwork of their Creator. The cosmos is
at least 13 billion light years in diameter. If God said Let there be
light, He said it billyuns and billyuns of years ago. Not 6000 years
(give or take) as the Bible clearly implies. Google <Bishop Usher>

Bob Kolker


Your mindset is that the world was created 6,000 years ago... nit true.


Excuse me. I am telling you that the Earth was formed out of debris and
gases about four and a half billion years ago. It was formed from the
same nebula of gases and debris as our sun.

Bob Kolker

You are also telling people the bible talk about a 6000 year universal
existence, that is false.
.
User: "Bob Kolker"

Title: Re: TOBS: Science and the Future 17 Sep 2006 09:34:57 AM
Jabriol-Basic wrote:

You are also telling people the bible talk about a 6000 year universal
existence, that is false.

The text of the bible taken literally clearly implies an earth around
six thousand years old. Bishop Usher worked that out and the Hebrew
calender is at year 5766, dated from the Creation. So it is pretty
close. Conclusion: The bible is factually false. It cannot be taken
literally.
Bob Kolker
.







User: "Lucifer"

Title: Re: TOBS: Science and the Future 16 Sep 2006 06:46:15 AM
Jabriol-Basic wrote:

Prove it.

Why don't you prove your beliefs, anyway
There cannot have been a deluge that large, in the timescale given in
the babble. Varve formations date back over thirteen thousand years,
with every single year counted. The difference in types of
sedimentation would be extreme.
If it were true we would find a thin layer of oceanic sediments right
round the wearth, not especially deeply buried.
There is no such layer.
.
User: "Bob Kolker"

Title: Re: TOBS: Science and the Future 16 Sep 2006 08:15:11 AM
Lucifer wrote:


Why don't you prove your beliefs, anyway
There cannot have been a deluge that large, in the timescale given in
the babble. Varve formations date back over thirteen thousand years,
with every single year counted. The difference in types of
sedimentation would be extreme.
If it were true we would find a thin layer of oceanic sediments right
round the wearth, not especially deeply buried.
There is no such layer.

Also the alternating orientation of the earth megnetism found in the
ocean bottom indicate a much longer time span that found in the Bible.
The only dead animals that have been found near the peak of Mt. Everest
are the bodies of climbers who did not make it the top.
Bob Kolker
.

User: "Jabriol-Basic"

Title: Flood legends was Re: TOBS: Science and the Future 16 Sep 2006 07:47:50 AM
Lucifer wrote:

Jabriol-Basic wrote:

Prove it.


Why don't you prove your beliefs, anyway
There cannot have been a deluge that large, in the timescale given in
the babble. Varve formations date back over thirteen thousand years,
with every single year counted. The difference in types of
sedimentation would be extreme.
If it were true we would find a thin layer of oceanic sediments right
round the wearth, not especially deeply buried.
There is no such layer.

http://tinyurl.com/gnxma
.
User: "Alasdair"

Title: Re: Flood legends was Re: TOBS: Science and the Future 16 Sep 2006 09:23:29 AM
"Jabriol-Basic" <basic@blubber.es> wrote in message
news:WnSOg.140$uj3.136@trnddc08...

Lucifer wrote:

Jabriol-Basic wrote:

Prove it.


Why don't you prove your beliefs, anyway
There cannot have been a deluge that large, in the timescale given in
the babble. Varve formations date back over thirteen thousand years,
with every single year counted. The difference in types of
sedimentation would be extreme.
If it were true we would find a thin layer of oceanic sediments right
round the wearth, not especially deeply buried.
There is no such layer.

http://tinyurl.com/gnxma

the belief of the majority does not signify truth
Alasdair
--
erect featherless biped
www.digitalmystic.co.uk
http://www.godisimaginary.com/
.

User: "Mark Isaak"

Title: Re: Flood legends was Re: TOBS: Science and the Future 18 Sep 2006 01:24:33 PM
On Sat, 16 Sep 2006 12:47:50 +0000, Jabriol-Basic wrote:

Lucifer wrote:

There cannot have been a deluge that large, in the timescale given in
the babble. Varve formations date back over thirteen thousand years,
with every single year counted. The difference in types of
sedimentation would be extreme.
If it were true we would find a thin layer of oceanic sediments right
round the wearth, not especially deeply buried.
There is no such layer.

http://tinyurl.com/gnxma

[which says worldwide prevalence of flood myths indicates a global
Biblical flood]
Since I am reading this on alt.mytholgoy, I would like to ask about the
myths. The article says that the people spreading out from Ararat carried
the flood myth with them, and the myths got gradually corrupted in the
course of their spread.
Why, then, is there no evidence for this? Yes, there are similar flood
myths in the Middle East, but beyond there, the myths show absolutely no
evidence of progressive divergence with distance. Or perhaps all the
myths diverged over time. But again, the evidence of the myths themselves
shows that they do not fit in a common phyolgeny as one would expect if
they had a common source.
Why was the Flood the only myth trasmitted? According to the Bible, the
spread of humanity occurred after the Tower of Babel. And although there
are a few myths in other places similar to the Tower of Babel, they are
nowhere near as common as myths about the flood. And oddly, the Tower
myths appear to be most common in Africa, where flood myths are least
common.
Why assume that the myth of Noah was the prototype? If the myths had a
common source, it makes as much sense that all of them, Noah included,
derived from the Southeast Asian myth of a brother and sister surviving
floating in a gourd and producing all races from a miraculous birth after
incest.
Or perhaps the Flood did not kill everyone, but left hundreds of pockets
of survivors around the world to record their own eyewitness accounts. If
this is the case, why assume the floods they describe all happened at the
same time?
I'm afraid the evidence of flood myths argues against a global flood, even
without the geological evidence giving the same conclusion.
--
Mark Isaak eciton (at) earthlink (dot) net
"Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of
the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are
being attacked, and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and
exposing the country to danger." -- Hermann Goering
.
User: "Bob Kolker"

Title: Re: Flood legends was Re: TOBS: Science and the Future 18 Sep 2006 03:30:03 PM
Mark Isaak wrote:

I'm afraid the evidence of flood myths argues against a global flood, even
without the geological evidence giving the same conclusion.

It just occurred to me that Flood Myths might be Jungian archetypes.
Could Flood Myths be a meme that is a kind of rememberance of what we
were while still in utero. Toward the later stages of gestation the
brain becomes active and the child in utero has some perceptions.
Perhaps we remember floating in water. This is pure speculation on my
part, but it would explain why Flood Myths are so common among the
various cultures of the world. After all, we were all swimming around in
water before we were born into this world.
Bob Kolker
.
User: "Matt Silberstein"

Title: Re: Flood legends was Re: TOBS: Science and the Future 18 Sep 2006 04:01:49 PM
On Mon, 18 Sep 2006 15:30:03 -0500, in alt.atheism , Bob Kolker
<nowhere@nowhere.com> in <4n8agcF94vsnU1@individual.net> wrote:

Mark Isaak wrote:

I'm afraid the evidence of flood myths argues against a global flood, even
without the geological evidence giving the same conclusion.


It just occurred to me that Flood Myths might be Jungian archetypes.
Could Flood Myths be a meme that is a kind of rememberance of what we
were while still in utero.

Why propose something with no other evidence when we have evidence?
How about it is, in part, a story about mammalian birth? People, at
least prior to the modern world, did see such births and they do have
a flood of water.

Toward the later stages of gestation the
brain becomes active and the child in utero has some perceptions.
Perhaps we remember floating in water. This is pure speculation on my
part, but it would explain why Flood Myths are so common among the
various cultures of the world. After all, we were all swimming around in
water before we were born into this world.

Flood stories, though, are not about the flooded times. They are about
the before and, in particular, the after.
--
Matt Silberstein
Do something today about the Darfur Genocide
http://www.beawitness.org
http://www.darfurgenocide.org
http://www.savedarfur.org
"Darfur: A Genocide We can Stop"
.


User: "Strategos"

Title: Re: Flood legends was Re: TOBS: Science and the Future 18 Sep 2006 05:05:54 PM
Mark Isaak wrote:

On Sat, 16 Sep 2006 12:47:50 +0000, Jabriol-Basic wrote:

Lucifer wrote:

There cannot have been a deluge that large, in the timescale given in
the babble. Varve formations date back over thirteen thousand years,
with every single year counted. The difference in types of
sedimentation would be extreme.
If it were true we would find a thin layer of oceanic sediments right
round the wearth, not especially deeply buried.
There is no such layer.

http://tinyurl.com/gnxma

[which says worldwide prevalence of flood myths indicates a global
Biblical flood]

Since I am reading this on alt.mytholgoy, I would like to ask about the
myths. The article says that the people spreading out from Ararat carried
the flood myth with them, and the myths got gradually corrupted in the
course of their spread.

Why, then, is there no evidence for this? Yes, there are similar flood
myths in the Middle East, but beyond there, the myths show absolutely no
evidence of progressive divergence with distance. Or perhaps all the
myths diverged over time. But again, the evidence of the myths themselves
shows that they do not fit in a common phyolgeny as one would expect if
they had a common source.

Lets examen this,with the Bible record in mind, let us now consider the
Assyro-Babylonian mythology and its references to a flood. As found in
Epic tablet XI, known as the Flood Tablet, Utnapishtim recounts
instructions given to him concerning the flood: “Tear down (this) house,
build a ship! Give up possessions, seek thou life. . . . Aboard the ship
take thou the seed of all living things.” Does this not sound somewhat
similar to the Bible’s reference to Noah and the Flood?.”
Even earlier than the account in the Epic of Gilgamesh is the Sumerian
myth that presents “Ziusudra, the counterpart of the biblical Noah, who
is described as a pious, a god-fearing king, constantly on the lookout
for divine revelations in dreams or incantations.” (Ancient Near Eastern
Texts Relating to the Old Testament) According to the same source, this
myth “offers the closest and most striking parallel to biblical material
as yet uncovered in Sumerian literature.” The Babylonian and Assyrian
civilizations, which came later, were influenced by the Sumerian.
The book China—A History in Art tells us that one of the ancient rulers
of China was Yü, “the conqueror of the Great Flood. Yü channeled flood
waters into rivers and seas to resettle his people.” Mythology expert
Joseph Campbell wrote about the Chinese “Period of the Great Ten,”
saying: “To this important age, which terminates in a Deluge, ten
emperors were assigned in the early Chou-time mythology. Hence, it
appears that what we are viewing here may be a local transformation of
the series of the old Sumerian king list.” Campbell then cited other
items from Chinese legends that appeared to “reinforce the argument for
a Mesopotamian source.” That takes us back to the same basic source of
many myths.
the Incas had their Flood legends; British writer Harold Osborne states:
“Perhaps the most ubiquitous features in South American myth are the
stories of a deluge . . . Myths of a deluge are very widespread among
both the highland peoples and the tribes of the tropical lowlands. The
deluge is commonly connected with the creation and with an epiphany
[manifestation] of the creator-god. . . . It is sometimes regarded as a
divine punishment wiping out existing humankind in preparation for the
emergence of a new race.”
The Maya in Mexico and Central America had their Flood legend that
involved a universal deluge, or haiyococab, which means “water over the
earth.” Catholic bishop Las Casas wrote that the Guatemalan Indians
“called it Butic, which is the word which means flood of many waters and
means the final judgment, and so they believe that another Butic is
about to come, which is another flood and judgment, not of water, but of
fire.” Many more flood legends exist around the world, but the few
already quoted serve to confirm the kernel of the legend, the historical
event related in the book of Genesis

Why was the Flood the only myth trasmitted? According to the Bible, the
spread of humanity occurred after the Tower of Babel. And although there
are a few myths in other places similar to the Tower of Babel, they are
nowhere near as common as myths about the flood. And oddly, the Tower
myths appear to be most common in Africa, where flood myths are least
common.

There were more than Flood myths transmitted, Aztec mythology spoke of
four previous ages, during the first of which the earth was inhabited by
giants. (That is another reminder of the Nephilim, the giants referred
to in the Bible at Genesis 6:4.) It included a primeval flood legend in
which “the waters above merge with those below, obliterating the
horizons and making of everything a timeless cosmic ocean.”
The gods of ancient Greece and Rome, reflected the Nephelim of the bible
The days of the intermarriage between passionate “sons of the true God”
and women were numbered. But was any offspring possible from this
confusion of natures between materialized spirits and fleshly female
creatures with procreative powers? Genesis 6:4 gives us the facts in answer:
“The Nephilim proved to be in the earth in those days, and also after
that, when the sons of the true God continued to have relations with the
daughters of men and they bore sons to them, they were the mighty ones
who were of old, the men of fame.”
The name means “Fellers,” to indicate that these mighty hybrid sons
violently felled others or caused weaker humans to fall.
The fame and dread of the Nephilim, it appears, gave rise to many
mythologies of heathen people who, after the confusion of languages at
Babel, were scattered throughout the earth. Though the historical forms
of the Genesis account were greatly distorted and embellished, there was
a remarkable resemblance in these ancient mythologies.
Rome borrowed many gods from ancient Greece, along with their virtues
and vices.
It is reported that Jupiter, the father of the gods, committed adultery
or incest with about 59 women! (What a reminder of the rebel angels who
cohabited with women before the Flood!)

Why assume that the myth of Noah was the prototype? If the myths had a
common source, it makes as much sense that all of them, Noah included,
derived from the Southeast Asian myth of a brother and sister surviving
floating in a gourd and producing all races from a miraculous birth after
incest.

The Bible per se does not contain mysticism as the other flood legends
do, the language is simple and understandble. The scattering that occur
at Babel occurred because the people did not wanted to obey God, It
would not be surprising that God was removed from these legend in lieu
of the demi-gods that were destroyed, or the disobedient angels that
survived the flood.
.
User: "Mark Isaak"

Title: Re: Flood legends was Re: TOBS: Science and the Future 19 Sep 2006 10:06:09 AM
On Mon, 18 Sep 2006 22:05:54 +0000, Strategos wrote:

Mark Isaak wrote:

On Sat, 16 Sep 2006 12:47:50 +0000, Jabriol-Basic wrote:

Lucifer wrote:

There cannot have been a deluge that large, in the timescale given in
the babble. Varve formations date back over thirteen thousand years,
with every single year counted. The difference in types of
sedimentation would be extreme.
If it were true we would find a thin layer of oceanic sediments right
round the wearth, not especially deeply buried. There is no such
layer.

http://tinyurl.com/gnxma

[which says worldwide prevalence of flood myths indicates a global
Biblical flood]

Since I am reading this on alt.mytholgoy, I would like to ask about the
myths. The article says that the people spreading out from Ararat
carried the flood myth with them, and the myths got gradually corrupted
in the course of their spread.

Why, then, is there no evidence for this? Yes, there are similar flood
myths in the Middle East, but beyond there, the myths show absolutely
no evidence of progressive divergence with distance. Or perhaps all
the myths diverged over time. But again, the evidence of the myths
themselves shows that they do not fit in a common phyolgeny as one
would expect if they had a common source.


Lets examen this,with the Bible record in mind, let us now consider the
Assyro-Babylonian mythology ... [and] the Sumerian myth ....

That's what I meant about Middle East. The flood myths of Utnapishtim,
Atrahasis, and Noah are derived from the same tradition. The flood myths
in the rest of the world are entirely different.

The book China-A History in Art tells us that one of the ancient
rulers of China was Yu, . . .

Perhaps you should read Chinese mythology rather than Campbell. Aside
from the presence of one male character and lots of water, the Biblical
flood and the Yu flood have nothing in common.

[Incas, Mayans, ubiquity of flood myths]

You don't need to tell me that there are plenty of flood myths. I have
read at least 400 of them. The one I found most recently was from the
Chamacoco (of northern Paraguay), who say that the flood was caused by the
Chief of the Armadillos when people killed it, and people survived under
the water for many months in a watertight adobe house. Do you really want
to try to make the case that that is a Bible story?

Why was the Flood the only myth trasmitted? According to the Bible,
the spread of humanity occurred after the Tower of Babel. And although
there are a few myths in other places similar to the Tower of Babel,
they are nowhere near as common as myths about the flood. And oddly,
the Tower myths appear to be most common in Africa, where flood myths
are least common.

There were more than Flood myths transmitted, Aztec mythology spoke of
four previous ages, during the first of which the earth was inhabited by
giants. . . .

Right, giants. The Bible devotes a whole sentence to them. Surely the
devout followers of Yahweh would make giants and floods their most
important stories, not the Creation, Adam and Eve, Cain and Abel, or Tower
of Babel. And the Bible says even less about little people, which must be
why the people spreading out from Ararat spread legends of them all around
the world, too.

Why assume that the myth of Noah was the prototype? If the myths had a
common source, it makes as much sense that all of them, Noah included,
derived from the Southeast Asian myth of a brother and sister surviving
floating in a gourd and producing all races from a miraculous birth
after incest.

The Bible per se does not contain mysticism as the other flood legends
do, the language is simple and understandble. The scattering that occur
at Babel occurred because the people did not wanted to obey God, It
would not be surprising that God was removed from these legend in lieu
of the demi-gods that were destroyed, or the disobedient angels that
survived the flood.

There is no shortage of gods in other flood stories. There is nothing in
the Biblical flood myth to set it apart from others except the origin of
viticulture. (Origins of agriculture in general, however, are
widespread.) I look forward to seeing what kind of argument you can make
out of grapes and only grapes.
--
Mark Isaak eciton (at) earthlink (dot) net
"Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of
the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are
being attacked, and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and
exposing the country to danger." -- Hermann Goering
.
User: "Strategos"

Title: Re: Flood legends was Re: TOBS: Science and the Future 19 Sep 2006 09:27:24 PM
Mark Isaak wrote:
I will snip for brevity, I read Mark response and understand many of his
points on the subject and I respect his opinions


Lets examen this,with the Bible record in mind, let us now consider the
Assyro-Babylonian mythology ... [and] the Sumerian myth ....


That's what I meant about Middle East. The flood myths of Utnapishtim,
Atrahasis, and Noah are derived from the same tradition. The flood myths
in the rest of the world are entirely different.

It seems that way. But the core is the same, Global Flood, God or gods
and a human savior, with some sort of mechanism to save a few.


The book China-A History in Art tells us that one of the ancient
rulers of China was Yu, . . .


Perhaps you should read Chinese mythology rather than Campbell. Aside
from the presence of one male character and lots of water, the Biblical
flood and the Yu flood have nothing in common.

[Incas, Mayans, ubiquity of flood myths]


You don't need to tell me that there are plenty of flood myths. I have
read at least 400 of them. The one I found most recently was from the
Chamacoco (of northern Paraguay), who say that the flood was caused by the
Chief of the Armadillos when people killed it, and people survived under
the water for many months in a watertight adobe house. Do you really want
to try to make the case that that is a Bible story?

Same principle.

Why was the Flood the only myth trasmitted? According to the Bible,
the spread of humanity occurred after the Tower of Babel. And although
there are a few myths in other places similar to the Tower of Babel,
they are nowhere near as common as myths about the flood. And oddly,
the Tower myths appear to be most common in Africa, where flood myths
are least common.

There were more than Flood myths transmitted, Aztec mythology spoke of
four previous ages, during the first of which the earth was inhabited by
giants. . . .


Right, giants. The Bible devotes a whole sentence to them. Surely the
devout followers of Yahweh would make giants and floods their most
important stories, not the Creation, Adam and Eve, Cain and Abel, or Tower
of Babel.

Why?


Why assume that the myth of Noah was the prototype? If the myths had a
common source, it makes as much sense that all of them, Noah included,
derived from the Southeast Asian myth of a brother and sister surviving
floating in a gourd and producing all races from a miraculous birth
after incest.

The Bible per se does not contain mysticism as the other flood legends
do, the language is simple and understandble. The scattering that occur
at Babel occurred because the people did not wanted to obey God, It
would not be surprising that God was removed from these legend in lieu
of the demi-gods that were destroyed, or the disobedient angels that
survived the flood.


There is no shortage of gods in other flood stories. There is nothing in
the Biblical flood myth to set it apart from others except the origin of
viticulture. (Origins of agriculture in general, however, are
widespread.) I look forward to seeing what kind of argument you can make
out of grapes and only grapes.

Which others? you made statement that others did not resemble the
noachian flood.
.
User: "Mark Isaak"

Title: Re: Flood legends was Re: TOBS: Science and the Future 20 Sep 2006 12:19:58 PM
On Wed, 20 Sep 2006 02:27:24 +0000, Strategos wrote:

Mark Isaak wrote:

I will snip for brevity, ...

Likewise.


Lets examen this,with the Bible record in mind, let us now consider the
Assyro-Babylonian mythology ... [and] the Sumerian myth ....


That's what I meant about Middle East. The flood myths of Utnapishtim,
Atrahasis, and Noah are derived from the same tradition. The flood myths
in the rest of the world are entirely different.


It seems that way. But the core is the same, Global Flood, God or gods
and a human savior, with some sort of mechanism to save a few.

That "core" rules out, at a rough estimate, about two-thirds of flood
myths, most of which do not have god saviors. Also, many have more than
just a few survivors, and some have no survivors at all.
And besides, what would you expect of a flood myth? If a culture
attributes grand powers to gods, would it be all that surprising that the
gods are included in a story of a grand scale? And the survivors simply
make a good story.

Which others? you made statement that others did not resemble the
noachian flood.

About half of the ones I know about are recounted briefly at
http://home.earthlink.net/~misaak/floods.htm
--
Mark Isaak eciton (at) earthlink (dot) net
"Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of
the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are
being attacked, and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and
exposing the country to danger." -- Hermann Goering
.











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