Religions > Atheism > TOBS: The Human Hand: "Instrument of Instruments"--Chance?
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Religions > Atheism |
| User: |
"Interdiction" |
| Date: |
26 Jan 2007 04:05:54 AM |
| Object: |
TOBS: The Human Hand: "Instrument of Instruments"--Chance? |
So said an ancient physician about that which has made possible so many
of man's achievements. Biochemist Isaac Asimov echoed such feelings
by calling the hand:
" . . . a superlative manipulative organ, incomparably the best
thing of the sort in all the realm of life-with four limber fingers
and an opposing thumb so that the whole can be used as a delicate
pincer or firm grasper, a twister, bender, puller, pusher, and
manipulator of piano and typewriter keys."
Indeed the hand is not only powerful, but strikingly agile. With it we
can pound with a hammer yet also pick up a small pin.
Where are the powerful muscles located that control our fingers? Now if
you were designing a hand, where would you put the muscles? Perhaps in
the fingers themselves? How dreadful that would be! For even though
they would have strength, they would look like thick sausages. Have you
ever tried to pick up a pin with a thick sausage? But the bending
muscles of the fingers for the most part are located in the forearm.
Flex your fingers and feel your forearm. Feel the muscles moving? These
are connected by "strings" or tendons to the tips of your fingers,
resulting in great strength, but genuine flexibility. What a remarkable
design! By mere accident?
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| User: "William Wingstedt" |
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| Title: Re: TOBS: The Human Hand: "Instrument of Instruments"--Chance? |
26 Jan 2007 07:39:47 AM |
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On 26 Jan 2007 02:05:54 -0800, "Interdiction" <jabriol@hotmail.com>
wrote:
So said an ancient physician about that which has made possible so many
of man's achievements. Biochemist Isaac Asimov echoed such feelings
by calling the hand:
" . . . a superlative manipulative organ, incomparably the best
thing of the sort in all the realm of life-with four limber fingers
and an opposing thumb so that the whole can be used as a delicate
pincer or firm grasper, a twister, bender, puller, pusher, and
manipulator of piano and typewriter keys."
Indeed the hand is not only powerful, but strikingly agile. With it we
can pound with a hammer yet also pick up a small pin.
Where are the powerful muscles located that control our fingers? Now if
you were designing a hand, where would you put the muscles? Perhaps in
the fingers themselves? How dreadful that would be! For even though
they would have strength, they would look like thick sausages. Have you
ever tried to pick up a pin with a thick sausage? But the bending
muscles of the fingers for the most part are located in the forearm.
Flex your fingers and feel your forearm. Feel the muscles moving? These
are connected by "strings" or tendons to the tips of your fingers,
resulting in great strength, but genuine flexibility. What a remarkable
design! By mere accident?
That's right. That's what make it so amazing. If it were the mere
design of some impossible god, that would be quite a disappointment,
indeed. What is so amazing about a god doing things of which it is
capable? The absolute wonder of the Universe and everything in it is
that is just that, an accident.
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| User: "MarkA" |
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| Title: Re: TOBS: The Human Hand: "Instrument of Instruments"--Chance? |
27 Jan 2007 09:45:24 AM |
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On Fri, 26 Jan 2007 02:05:54 -0800, Interdiction wrote:
So said an ancient physician about that which has made possible so many of
man's achievements. Biochemist Isaac Asimov echoed such feelings by
calling the hand:
" . . . a superlative manipulative organ, incomparably the best thing of
the sort in all the realm of life-with four limber fingers and an opposing
thumb so that the whole can be used as a delicate pincer or firm grasper,
a twister, bender, puller, pusher, and manipulator of piano and typewriter
keys."
Indeed the hand is not only powerful, but strikingly agile. With it we can
pound with a hammer yet also pick up a small pin.
Where are the powerful muscles located that control our fingers? Now if
you were designing a hand, where would you put the muscles? Perhaps in the
fingers themselves? How dreadful that would be! For even though they would
have strength, they would look like thick sausages. Have you ever tried to
pick up a pin with a thick sausage? But the bending muscles of the fingers
for the most part are located in the forearm. Flex your fingers and feel
your forearm. Feel the muscles moving? These are connected by "strings" or
tendons to the tips of your fingers, resulting in great strength, but
genuine flexibility. What a remarkable design! By mere accident?
Have you ever seen a chimp's hand? They use their hands for locomotion:
the dorsal (top) side of the middle phalanges have a thick pad, much like
the paw of a dog. They also use them as 'hooks', to hold onto tree
branches as they swing. They do not use them for fine manipulation.
To go from a chimp hand to a human hand, all you need to do is increase
the power and control of the small muscles in the hand itself. These
muscles allow precision control of how the fingers bend, and increase the
dexterity of the hand. You also have to change, very slightly, the
mechanics of the thumb.
These are pretty minor changes, well within what creationists would
consider 'microevolution.' In fact, the basic design of the hand is
similar in all mammals. Even ungulates (hooved animals) have a hand with
5 rays, only one or two of which is fully developed, and the hoof is, in
fact, a very large fingernail.
The human hand is a marvelous example of evolution, because you can find
more and more 'primitive' hands in older species.
Now, here's a challenge for Creationists: why do humans make scar tissue?
Salamanders can re-grow tails, crabs can re-grow claws. The evolutionary
explanation for scar is that it is a faster way to heal a wound, and over
the long haul, getting healed quickly was more important than re-growing a
missing part.
So, if some god 'designed' us, and knew we would not have to compete for
survival, why wouldn't he give us the ability to re-grow missing limbs?
--
MarkA
(this space accidentally filled in)
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| User: "Don Martin" |
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| Title: Re: TOBS: The Human Hand: "Instrument of Instruments"--Chance? |
27 Jan 2007 09:54:16 AM |
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On Sat, 27 Jan 2007 10:45:24 -0500, MarkA <toor@nowhere.com> wrote:
On Fri, 26 Jan 2007 02:05:54 -0800, Interdiction wrote:
<snip>
Have you ever seen a chimp's hand? They use their hands for locomotion:
the dorsal (top) side of the middle phalanges have a thick pad, much like
the paw of a dog. They also use them as 'hooks', to hold onto tree
branches as they swing. They do not use them for fine manipulation.
I would suggest that you try to peel and shape a stick into the proper
form for teasing termites out of their hill. Human anthropologists
have failed where chimps succeed.
At least the rudiments of fine manipulation are in place.
Through a jaundiced eye darkly--rheum with a view.
The Squeeky Wheel
http://home.comcast.net/~drdonmartin/
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| User: "sleepalot" |
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| Title: Re: TOBS: The Human Hand: "Instrument of Instruments"--Chance? |
28 Jan 2007 02:50:40 AM |
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On Jan 27, 3:54 pm, Don Martin <drdonmar...@comcast.net> wrote:
I would suggest that you try to peel and shape a stick into the proper
form for teasing termites out of their hill. Human anthropologists
have failed where chimps succeed.
Since we can make chop sticks, drum sticks, matchsticks,
candlesticks and hockey sticks, I really don't see how it can
be that difficult to make a termite-stick.
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| User: "Don Martin" |
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| Title: Re: TOBS: The Human Hand: "Instrument of Instruments"--Chance? |
28 Jan 2007 08:52:13 AM |
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On 28 Jan 2007 00:50:40 -0800, "sleepalot" <sleepy03@fsmail.net>
wrote:
On Jan 27, 3:54 pm, Don Martin <drdonmar...@comcast.net> wrote:
I would suggest that you try to peel and shape a stick into the proper
form for teasing termites out of their hill. Human anthropologists
have failed where chimps succeed.
Since we can make chop sticks, drum sticks, matchsticks,
candlesticks and hockey sticks, I really don't see how it can
be that difficult to make a termite-stick.
Those who have tried it after observing chimps have not been nearly as
successful as the chimps in getting any termites. Now, it may be that
they were not getting the sticks right or it may be they weren't
getting the fishing technique right, but they were, in fact, bested at
the task by the chimps.
Through a jaundiced eye darkly--rheum with a view.
The Squeeky Wheel
http://home.comcast.net/~drdonmartin/
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| User: "MarkA" |
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| Title: Re: TOBS: The Human Hand: "Instrument of Instruments"--Chance? |
27 Jan 2007 11:04:49 PM |
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On Sat, 27 Jan 2007 10:54:16 -0500, Don Martin wrote:
On Sat, 27 Jan 2007 10:45:24 -0500, MarkA <toor@nowhere.com> wrote:
On Fri, 26 Jan 2007 02:05:54 -0800, Interdiction wrote:
<snip>
Have you ever seen a chimp's hand? They use their hands for locomotion:
the dorsal (top) side of the middle phalanges have a thick pad, much like
the paw of a dog. They also use them as 'hooks', to hold onto tree
branches as they swing. They do not use them for fine manipulation.
I would suggest that you try to peel and shape a stick into the proper
form for teasing termites out of their hill. Human anthropologists have
failed where chimps succeed.
At least the rudiments of fine manipulation are in place.
They mostly use their teeth for shaping sticks. They can do a simple
grasp, but not fine manipulation.
Through a jaundiced eye darkly--rheum with a view. The Squeeky Wheel
http://home.comcast.net/~drdonmartin/
--
MarkA
(this space accidentally filled in)
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| User: "Pastor Kutchie, ordained atheist minister" |
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| Title: The in-your-face dishonesty of cretinists |
26 Jan 2007 08:27:27 AM |
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On Jan 26, 10:05 am, "Interdiction" <jabr...@hotmail.com> wrote:
So said an ancient physician about that which has made possible so many
of man's achievements. Biochemist Isaac Asimov echoed such feelings
by calling the hand:
" . . . a superlative manipulative organ, incomparably the best
thing of the sort in all the realm of life-with four limber fingers
and an opposing thumb so that the whole can be used as a delicate
pincer or firm grasper, a twister, bender, puller, pusher, and
manipulator of piano and typewriter keys."
Indeed the hand is not only powerful, but strikingly agile. With it we
can pound with a hammer yet also pick up a small pin.
Where are the powerful muscles located that control our fingers? Now if
you were designing a hand, where would you put the muscles? Perhaps in
the fingers themselves? How dreadful that would be! For even though
they would have strength, they would look like thick sausages. Have you
ever tried to pick up a pin with a thick sausage? But the bending
muscles of the fingers for the most part are located in the forearm.
Flex your fingers and feel your forearm. Feel the muscles moving? These
are connected by "strings" or tendons to the tips of your fingers,
resulting in great strength, but genuine flexibility. What a remarkable
design! By mere accident?
Evolution is a fact. Deal with it and move on from your simian
superstitions. The rest of the human race has. Hands didn't wink into
existence any more than arms, legs, brains or eyes. Clearly, from your
-posting, at least some of these things don't work perfectly anyway.
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| User: "Christopher A.Lee" |
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| Title: Re: The in-your-face dishonesty of cretinists |
26 Jan 2007 08:57:25 AM |
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On 26 Jan 2007 06:27:27 -0800, "Pastor Kutchie, ordained atheist
minister" <user13@heathens.org.uk> wrote:
On Jan 26, 10:05 am, "Interdiction" <jabr...@hotmail.com> wrote:
So said an ancient physician about that which has made possible so many
of man's achievements. Biochemist Isaac Asimov echoed such feelings
by calling the hand:
" . . . a superlative manipulative organ, incomparably the best
thing of the sort in all the realm of life-with four limber fingers
and an opposing thumb so that the whole can be used as a delicate
pincer or firm grasper, a twister, bender, puller, pusher, and
manipulator of piano and typewriter keys."
Indeed the hand is not only powerful, but strikingly agile. With it we
can pound with a hammer yet also pick up a small pin.
Where are the powerful muscles located that control our fingers? Now if
you were designing a hand, where would you put the muscles? Perhaps in
the fingers themselves? How dreadful that would be! For even though
they would have strength, they would look like thick sausages. Have you
ever tried to pick up a pin with a thick sausage? But the bending
muscles of the fingers for the most part are located in the forearm.
Flex your fingers and feel your forearm. Feel the muscles moving? These
are connected by "strings" or tendons to the tips of your fingers,
resulting in great strength, but genuine flexibility. What a remarkable
design! By mere accident?
Evolution is a fact. Deal with it and move on from your simian
superstitions. The rest of the human race has. Hands didn't wink into
existence any more than arms, legs, brains or eyes. Clearly, from your
-posting, at least some of these things don't work perfectly anyway.
Ask anybody with arthritis, failing eyesight, enlarged prostate, etc
just how pefectly designed they are.
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| User: "Lucifer" |
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| Title: Re: TOBS: The Human Hand: "Instrument of Instruments"--Chance? |
26 Jan 2007 01:24:23 PM |
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On Jan 26, 10:05 am, "Interdiction" <jabr...@hotmail.com> wrote:
So said an ancient physician about that which has made possible so many
of man's achievements. Biochemist Isaac Asimov echoed such feelings
by calling the hand:
" . . . a superlative manipulative organ, incomparably the best
thing of the sort in all the realm of life-with four limber fingers
and an opposing thumb so that the whole can be used as a delicate
pincer or firm grasper, a twister, bender, puller, pusher, and
manipulator of piano and typewriter keys."
Indeed the hand is not only powerful, but strikingly agile. With it we
can pound with a hammer yet also pick up a small pin.
Where are the powerful muscles located that control our fingers? Now if
you were designing a hand, where would you put the muscles? Perhaps in
the fingers themselves? How dreadful that would be! For even though
they would have strength, they would look like thick sausages. Have you
ever tried to pick up a pin with a thick sausage? But the bending
muscles of the fingers for the most part are located in the forearm.
Flex your fingers and feel your forearm. Feel the muscles moving? These
are connected by "strings" or tendons to the tips of your fingers,
resulting in great strength, but genuine flexibility. What a remarkable
design! By mere accident?
Of course not, fuckstain. The human hand developed as a result of
randomnity being passed through inherently non random selection, like
if you make a small hole in a pressurised container, it all sprays from
the hole, even though the gas is going in random directions.
If the human hand is designed, i would have more than two.
--
Lucifer the Unsubtle, EAC Librarian of Dark Tomes of Excessive Evil and
General Purpose Igor
The Anti-Theist, BAAWA Lowly Evilmeister and tamer of the Demon Duck of
Doom
Convicted by Earthquack
"Don't worry, I won't bite.......hard"
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| User: "Smiler" |
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| Title: Re: TOBS: The Human Hand: "Instrument of Instruments"--Chance? |
26 Jan 2007 09:07:50 PM |
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"Lucifer" <wyrdology@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1169839463.484557.97090@q2g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
On Jan 26, 10:05 am, "Interdiction" <jabr...@hotmail.com> wrote:
So said an ancient physician about that which has made possible so many
of man's achievements. Biochemist Isaac Asimov echoed such feelings
by calling the hand:
" . . . a superlative manipulative organ, incomparably the best
thing of the sort in all the realm of life-with four limber fingers
and an opposing thumb so that the whole can be used as a delicate
pincer or firm grasper, a twister, bender, puller, pusher, and
manipulator of piano and typewriter keys."
Indeed the hand is not only powerful, but strikingly agile. With it we
can pound with a hammer yet also pick up a small pin.
Where are the powerful muscles located that control our fingers? Now if
you were designing a hand, where would you put the muscles? Perhaps in
the fingers themselves? How dreadful that would be! For even though
they would have strength, they would look like thick sausages. Have you
ever tried to pick up a pin with a thick sausage? But the bending
muscles of the fingers for the most part are located in the forearm.
Flex your fingers and feel your forearm. Feel the muscles moving? These
are connected by "strings" or tendons to the tips of your fingers,
resulting in great strength, but genuine flexibility. What a remarkable
design! By mere accident?
Of course not, fuckstain. The human hand developed as a result of
randomnity being passed through inherently non random selection, like
if you make a small hole in a pressurised container, it all sprays from
the hole, even though the gas is going in random directions.
If the human hand is designed, i would have more than two.
He'd like to have 3 hands.
Then he could type and wank at the same time.
Smiler,
The godless one
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| User: "Olrik" |
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| Title: Re: TOBS: The Human Hand: "Instrument of Instruments"--Chance? |
26 Jan 2007 11:45:55 PM |
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On Jan 26, 10:07 pm, "Smiler" <Smi...@Joe.King.com> wrote:
"Lucifer" <wyrdol...@hotmail.com> wrote in messagenews:1169839463.484557.97090@q2g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
On Jan 26, 10:05 am, "Interdiction" <jabr...@hotmail.com> wrote:
So said an ancient physician about that which has made possible so many
of man's achievements. Biochemist Isaac Asimov echoed such feelings
by calling the hand:
" . . . a superlative manipulative organ, incomparably the best
thing of the sort in all the realm of life-with four limber fingers
and an opposing thumb so that the whole can be used as a delicate
pincer or firm grasper, a twister, bender, puller, pusher, and
manipulator of piano and typewriter keys."
Indeed the hand is not only powerful, but strikingly agile. With it we
can pound with a hammer yet also pick up a small pin.
Where are the powerful muscles located that control our fingers? Now if
you were designing a hand, where would you put the muscles? Perhaps in
the fingers themselves? How dreadful that would be! For even though
they would have strength, they would look like thick sausages. Have you
ever tried to pick up a pin with a thick sausage? But the bending
muscles of the fingers for the most part are located in the forearm.
Flex your fingers and feel your forearm. Feel the muscles moving? These
are connected by "strings" or tendons to the tips of your fingers,
resulting in great strength, but genuine flexibility. What a remarkable
design! By mere accident?
Of course not, fuckstain. The human hand developed as a result of
randomnity being passed through inherently non random selection, like
if you make a small hole in a pressurised container, it all sprays from
the hole, even though the gas is going in random directions.
If the human hand is designed, i would have more than two.He'd like to have 3 hands.
Then he could type and wank at the same time.
You're assuming that he can type with both his upper appendages.
;-)
Olrik
Smiler,
The godless one
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| User: "Conspiracy of Doves" |
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| Title: Re: TOBS: The Human Hand: "Instrument of Instruments"--Chance? |
26 Jan 2007 09:40:09 AM |
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On Jan 26, 5:05 am, "Interdiction" <jabr...@hotmail.com> wrote:
So said an ancient physician about that which has made possible so many
of man's achievements. Biochemist Isaac Asimov echoed such feelings
by calling the hand:
" . . . a superlative manipulative organ, incomparably the best
thing of the sort in all the realm of life-with four limber fingers
and an opposing thumb so that the whole can be used as a delicate
pincer or firm grasper, a twister, bender, puller, pusher, and
manipulator of piano and typewriter keys."
Indeed the hand is not only powerful, but strikingly agile. With it we
can pound with a hammer yet also pick up a small pin.
Where are the powerful muscles located that control our fingers? Now if
you were designing a hand, where would you put the muscles? Perhaps in
the fingers themselves? How dreadful that would be! For even though
they would have strength, they would look like thick sausages. Have you
ever tried to pick up a pin with a thick sausage? But the bending
muscles of the fingers for the most part are located in the forearm.
Flex your fingers and feel your forearm. Feel the muscles moving? These
are connected by "strings" or tendons to the tips of your fingers,
resulting in great strength, but genuine flexibility. What a remarkable
design! By mere accident?
No. It wasn't an accident. It was evolution. Like nearly all
creationists, you make the mistake of believing that the two words are
synonymous.
There are many --possibly infinitely many-- possible ways an extremity
could evolve that have the same versatility as the human hand. Some
would be even more versatile. Imagine if our fingers and palms were
covered with the same microscopic hairs that allow a gecko to walk up
walls. We would be able to pick up an object without even grasping it,
and that would now be on your list of things that the hand can do.
If we didn't have hands capable of doing the things that we can do, we
wouldn't have been able to do all the things that you mentioned. The
only reason we are even having this conversation is because our hands
CAN do those things. That is the flaw of the teleological argument
(which you used, whether you are aware of it or not). You do not
realize, or admit to yourself, that order CAN arise naturally given the
right conditions and enough time. So any given amount of order in the
universe, you automatically attribute to god.
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