| Topic: |
Religions > Atheism |
| User: |
"David H." |
| Date: |
12 Dec 2005 02:41:15 PM |
| Object: |
Tookie gets no help from Schwarzenegger. |
Gov. Arnold Schwarzenegger has refused to spare the life of gang
founder Stanley Tookie Williams, scheduled to be executed after
midnight.
Well, as a person who supports the death penalty, all I can say is:
"What's on the discovery channel tonight?"
David H.
aa #2217
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| User: "JTEM" |
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| Title: Re: Tookie gets no help from Schwarzenegger. |
12 Dec 2005 03:46:48 PM |
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"David H." <davidhaapala@sbcglobal.fart.not.net> wrote
Gov. Arnold Schwarzenegger has refused to spare the life
of gang founder Stanley Tookie Williams, scheduled to be
executed after midnight.
Of course not. If he did, there wouldn't be any chance for
rioting, and without at least a chance for rioting how is
yet another American city to be destroyed under Bush's
ever restful watch?
Remember Bush senior's response to the Rodney King
riots?
Like father like son... just as in the case of Hurricanes.
His dad screwed up Andrew. Dubya screwed up Katrina.
Well, as a person who supports the death penalty, all
I can say is: "What's on the discovery channel tonight?"
I don't support the death penalty. But, it's not about the
death penalty. Not this time. It's about keeping the peace.
While normally it's accepted that a government might
harm people in the name of "keeping the peace," in this
one case we have the government saying that it's more
important to kill people than to keep the peace.
That's wrong. They've completely turned things upside
down.
Republicans have failed in their primary responsibility.
Republicans have intentionally walked away from their
primary responsibility.
Period.
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| User: "David H." |
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| Title: Re: Tookie gets no help from Schwarzenegger. |
12 Dec 2005 03:48:59 PM |
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"JTEM" <gymraven@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:PY6dnVaN4dK9cADenZ2dnUVZ_sKdnZ2d@comcast.com...
"David H." <davidhaapala@sbcglobal.fart.not.net> wrote
Gov. Arnold Schwarzenegger has refused to spare the life
of gang founder Stanley Tookie Williams, scheduled to be
executed after midnight.
Of course not. If he did, there wouldn't be any chance for
rioting, and without at least a chance for rioting how is
yet another American city to be destroyed under Bush's
ever restful watch?
Remember Bush senior's response to the Rodney King
riots?
Like father like son... just as in the case of Hurricanes.
His dad screwed up Andrew. Dubya screwed up Katrina.
Well, as a person who supports the death penalty, all
I can say is: "What's on the discovery channel tonight?"
I don't support the death penalty. But, it's not about the
death penalty. Not this time. It's about keeping the peace.
While normally it's accepted that a government might
harm people in the name of "keeping the peace," in this
one case we have the government saying that it's more
important to kill people than to keep the peace.
That's wrong. They've completely turned things upside
down.
Republicans have failed in their primary responsibility.
Republicans have intentionally walked away from their
primary responsibility.
Period.
I didn't realize the emotion level for this case was up to where
there will be rioting upon his execution.
I know he is one of the founding members of the crips, and that he
killed 4 people - one that was apparently "just for fun". I didn't think
the death penalty for him would stir emotions as high as when those cops
got off from beating up Rodney King the first time around.
Well, I certainly hope that there is no rioting. Other than working
out a little anger, there is no benefit to anyone in that. This case
certainly isn't worth it.
I still think that, weighing between keeping the peace and not
killing him, and *possibly having a riot by killing him, I would still
let it go forward. The legal process has been satisfied enough in his
case to finish it tonight.
David H.
aa #2217
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| User: "JTEM" |
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| Title: Re: Tookie gets no help from Schwarzenegger. |
13 Dec 2005 12:20:28 AM |
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"David H." <davidhaapala@sbcglobal.fart.not.net> wrote
I didn't realize the emotion level for this case was up to
where there will be rioting upon his execution.
Supposedly he's the founder of an "international" criminal
gang. Or haven't you heard?
I know he is one of the founding members of the crips,
and that he killed 4 people - one that was apparently "just
for fun".
Yeah, and that's convince *Everybody*... or at least the
people who know we found WMDs & terrorist ties in
Iraq.
I didn't think the death penalty for him would stir emotions
as high as when those cops got off from beating up Rodney
King the first time around.
I certainly hope not.
But in the case of Rodney King, it was pretty spontanious.
There wasn't supposed to be a very large, very well organized
and very dangerous criminal gang out for revenge.
At least, that's what the powers that be say...
I still think that, weighing between keeping the peace and not
killing him, and *possibly having a riot by killing him, I would still
let it go forward.
You must be a Christian.
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| User: "David H." |
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| Title: Re: Tookie gets no help from Schwarzenegger. |
13 Dec 2005 07:47:11 AM |
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"JTEM" <gymraven@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:BeidnZSgco4b-APenZ2dnUVZ_sSdnZ2d@comcast.com...
"David H." <davidhaapala@sbcglobal.fart.not.net> wrote
I didn't realize the emotion level for this case was up to
where there will be rioting upon his execution.
Supposedly he's the founder of an "international" criminal
gang. Or haven't you heard?
I know he is one of the founding members of the crips,
and that he killed 4 people - one that was apparently "just
for fun".
Yeah, and that's convince *Everybody*... or at least the
people who know we found WMDs & terrorist ties in
Iraq.
I didn't think the death penalty for him would stir emotions
as high as when those cops got off from beating up Rodney
King the first time around.
I certainly hope not.
But in the case of Rodney King, it was pretty spontanious.
There wasn't supposed to be a very large, very well organized
and very dangerous criminal gang out for revenge.
At least, that's what the powers that be say...
I still think that, weighing between keeping the peace and not
killing him, and *possibly having a riot by killing him, I would
still
let it go forward.
You must be a Christian.
Nope, no xian here. I am fanatically anti-fanatic, ( That includes
the idiots on both sides of the tracks...).
Have a good one.
David H.
aa #2217
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| User: "Paul Erickson" |
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| Title: Re: Tookie gets no help from Schwarzenegger. |
12 Dec 2005 04:28:59 PM |
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On Tue, 13 Dec 2005 13:47:11 GMT, "David H."
<davidhaapala@sbcglobal.fart.not.net> wrote:
"JTEM" <gymraven@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:BeidnZSgco4b-APenZ2dnUVZ_sSdnZ2d@comcast.com...
"David H." <davidhaapala@sbcglobal.fart.not.net> wrote
I didn't realize the emotion level for this case was up to
where there will be rioting upon his execution.
Supposedly he's the founder of an "international" criminal
gang. Or haven't you heard?
I know he is one of the founding members of the crips,
and that he killed 4 people - one that was apparently "just
for fun".
Yeah, and that's convince *Everybody*... or at least the
people who know we found WMDs & terrorist ties in
Iraq.
I didn't think the death penalty for him would stir emotions
as high as when those cops got off from beating up Rodney
King the first time around.
I certainly hope not.
But in the case of Rodney King, it was pretty spontanious.
There wasn't supposed to be a very large, very well organized
and very dangerous criminal gang out for revenge.
At least, that's what the powers that be say...
I still think that, weighing between keeping the peace and not
killing him, and *possibly having a riot by killing him, I would
still
let it go forward.
You must be a Christian.
Nope, no xian here. I am fanatically anti-fanatic, ( That includes
the idiots on both sides of the tracks...).
Have a good one.
What tracks?
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| User: "Fester" |
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| Title: Re: Tookie gets no help from Schwarzenegger. |
13 Dec 2005 05:46:00 PM |
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<snip>
But in the case of Rodney King, it was pretty spontanious.
There wasn't supposed to be a very large, very well organized
and very dangerous criminal gang out for revenge.
At least, that's what the powers that be say...
I still think that, weighing between keeping the peace and not
killing him, and *possibly having a riot by killing him, I would
still
let it go forward.
LMFAO! ***** to the thugs and criminals of LA ... WE SURRENDER! Oh
how very French of you. We don't want to ***** off LA's criminals, do
we? Noooooo. Let's appease them, that always works.
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| User: "Fester" |
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| Title: Re: Tookie gets no help from Schwarzenegger. |
12 Dec 2005 05:14:58 PM |
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David H. wrote:
"JTEM" <gymraven@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:PY6dnVaN4dK9cADenZ2dnUVZ_sKdnZ2d@comcast.com...
"David H." <davidhaapala@sbcglobal.fart.not.net> wrote
Gov. Arnold Schwarzenegger has refused to spare the life
of gang founder Stanley Tookie Williams, scheduled to be
executed after midnight.
Of course not. If he did, there wouldn't be any chance for
rioting, and without at least a chance for rioting how is
yet another American city to be destroyed under Bush's
ever restful watch?
Remember Bush senior's response to the Rodney King
riots?
Like father like son... just as in the case of Hurricanes.
His dad screwed up Andrew. Dubya screwed up Katrina.
Well, as a person who supports the death penalty, all
I can say is: "What's on the discovery channel tonight?"
I don't support the death penalty. But, it's not about the
death penalty. Not this time. It's about keeping the peace.
While normally it's accepted that a government might
harm people in the name of "keeping the peace," in this
one case we have the government saying that it's more
important to kill people than to keep the peace.
That's wrong. They've completely turned things upside
down.
Republicans have failed in their primary responsibility.
Republicans have intentionally walked away from their
primary responsibility.
Period.
I didn't realize the emotion level for this case was up to where
there will be rioting upon his execution.
I know he is one of the founding members of the crips, and that he
killed 4 people - one that was apparently "just for fun". I didn't think
the death penalty for him would stir emotions as high as when those cops
got off from beating up Rodney King the first time around.
Well, I certainly hope that there is no rioting. Other than working
out a little anger, there is no benefit to anyone in that. This case
certainly isn't worth it.
I still think that, weighing between keeping the peace and not
killing him, and *possibly having a riot by killing him, I would still
let it go forward. The legal process has been satisfied enough in his
case to finish it tonight.
A new low has been reached for naivete! The old mark was tough to beat,
but this takes the pink cigar. A few FAGs (see Team America for
explanation) introduce the idea of rioting under the pretense that they
want to avoid riots. An idea that nobody would have even considered if
not for their "warning" (i.e. threat). And we all know that urban
rioting in circumstances like these are nothing other than excuse for
some people to go out and steal TV's, etc. Oh, but we have to do what
we can to appease the FAGs and their low-income minions from becoming
violent!
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| User: "JTEM" |
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| Title: Re: Tookie gets no help from Schwarzenegger. |
13 Dec 2005 12:22:46 AM |
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"Fester" <not@home.com> wrote
A few FAGs (see Team America for explanation) introduce
the idea of rioting under the pretense that they want to avoid
riots. An idea that nobody would have even considered if
not for their "warning" (i.e. threat).
So your fellow Jesusbots were lying when they said he was
the founder of a large, dangerous "International" criminal
gang?
Who'd of thought...
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| User: "Robi" |
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| Title: Re: Tookie gets no help from Schwarzenegger. |
12 Dec 2005 04:41:56 PM |
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I only heard about this in the last few days but many of the news items
I've come across refer to much about the nature of the convictions
without actually giving much detail. Are you aware whether there is any
reasonable doubt?
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| User: "David H." |
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| Title: Re: Tookie gets no help from Schwarzenegger. |
12 Dec 2005 05:08:17 PM |
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"Robi" <robi_tola@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1134427316.185588.117850@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
I only heard about this in the last few days but many of the news items
I've come across refer to much about the nature of the convictions
without actually giving much detail. Are you aware whether there is any
reasonable doubt?
The defense recently said that there was a new witness. Exactly what
that witness would provide is ambiguous.
Here is some cut and paste from The Seattle Times regarding this issue:
The U.S. Supreme Court and other federal courts have issued repeated rulings
refusing to reopen Williams' case. He recently unsuccessfully requested a
new trial, alleging police and prosecutorial misconduct.
California's high court on Monday denied a petition requesting a stay of
execution. Meanwhile, Williams' supporters say a new witness has come
forward.
Here is some more from that article (URL pasted below):
The man
Williams, 51, was born in New Orleans and moved to California with his
mother when he was 6.
In 1971, he co-founded the Crips street gang with Raymond Washington in
South Central Los Angeles. He has said the gang was called "Cribs" but
routinely mispronounced "Crips" by drunken members, and the name stuck. One
of Williams' sons, Stanley Williams Jr., joined the gang and is now in
prison for second-degree murder.
Williams, who has been on death row since 1981, began his anti-gang work
behind bars in 1993. He has co-authored the anti-gang book series "Tookie
Speaks Out" - aimed at elementary school children - and he wrote a memoir
called "Blue Rage, Black Redemption."
From death row, he also created a protocol that was used to broker peace
between street gangs in New Jersey. As a result, he was nominated for a
Nobel Peace Prize.
"There is no part of me that existed then that exists now," Williams told
The AP's Kim Curtis in a recent death-row interview.
The victims
Albert Owens, 26, had recently returned to California to fight for custody
of his daughters and had taken a job at a 7-Eleven convenience store. He and
his wife had split four years before his 1979 murder.
Owens' daughter, Rebecca, was 8 when her father was killed. She was raised
believing the man who killed her father had already been put to death. Four
years ago, she learned Williams was alive.
The Yangs were Taiwanese immigrants who owned the Brookhaven Motel. Their
daughter had come to visit from Taiwan. At the time they were murdered, the
couple was preparing to sell the motel because the neighborhood had
deteriorated.
The Yangs' son, Robert, was awakened by gunfire and called police.
Prosecutors have said Yang was blamed by other family members for not saving
his parents and sister. He has never spoken publicly and efforts by the AP
to track him down were unsuccessful. The state attorney general's office has
said the family opposes clemency.
What's being said
"The evidence in this case is truly overwhelming and the murders were
senseless and very brutal, and Mr. Williams should pay the ultimate penalty
for his crimes."
-- Prosecutor John Monaghan
"Stanley Williams is a person worth fighting for."
-- Defense attorney Peter Fleming Jr.
"There are a lot of people who would like the public to forget there was a
victim. It's because it wasn't their loved one."
-- Lora Owens, the stepmother of victim Albert Owens.
"Don't kill this guy. Don't kill him."
-- Actor Jamie Foxx, who portrayed Williams in the 2004 film "Redemption."
"If there were a way to say, 'If you will sign a paper and say that you will
stop trying to get out. If you will stop the litigation,' I will be the
first to say, 'OK, clemency's cool.' But to believe that this man will be
released and become a hero and be proof that you don't have to take
responsibility, that's a message we can't afford to put out. That's
something we can't teach our children."
-- Wayne Owens, the older brother of victim Albert Owens.
"His voice needs to be heard."
-- Rapper Snoop Dogg, a former Crip who touts Williams' anti-gang efforts on
his new song "Real Soon."
Facts: California's death row
--Williams would be the 12th inmate executed since the state reinstated the
death penalty in 1977.
--The last California governor to grant clemency was Ronald Reagan, who
spared a mentally ill man in 1967.
--Number of people on death row: 654.
--Next inmate scheduled to die: Clarence Ray Allen on Jan. 17, 2006.
Appeal for calm
In Los Angeles, City Council members urged calm and asked local religious
leaders to promote peace among their congregants and open their churches to
those upset by the case. Authorities say they have received credible reports
of planned violence.
"What we picked up is enough to make us believe that there will be an
attempt in some isolated places for violence."
-- Robin Toma, executive director of the county's Commission on Human
Relations.
http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/nationworld/2002679671_webtookieside12.html
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| User: "JTEM" |
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| Title: Re: Tookie gets no help from Schwarzenegger. |
13 Dec 2005 01:51:45 AM |
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"David H." <davidhaapala@sbcglobal.fart.not.net> wrote
The U.S. Supreme Court and other federal courts have
issued repeated rulings refusing to reopen Williams'
case.
This is not to say that no judges thought he should get a
re-trial. In fact, a total of nine thought he should.
Still others found the case against his less then compelling.
But, no "Rights" were violated, no rules were broken, so
as weak as the case against him was, they allowed it to
stand.
He recently unsuccessfully requested a
new trial, alleging police and prosecutorial misconduct.
Well, one of the witnesses against him did turn around
and say they were forced to testify against him.
Here is some more from that article (URL pasted below):
This won't be interesting...
"The evidence in this case is truly overwhelming and the murders
were senseless and very brutal, and Mr. Williams should pay the
ultimate penalty for his crimes."
No human being with a functioning brain cell & access to oxygen
could make such a claim.
No physical evidence tied Tookie to the crimes. None. Zip, zil,
nadda.
No blood... no fingerprints... no footprints... nothing.
An "Expert" claimed to match one -- and only one -- shotgun
shell to a shotgun owned by Tookie, though in all these years,
and despite the "Expert claims" being called into question,
requests for new tests have been denied. The shotgun itself
was not found in Tookie's possesion.
He was convicted entirely on eyewitness testimoney, at least
two of those eyewitnesses being granted immunity from
prosecution in exchange for testifying against him. Another,
a man who admitted taking part in the crimes, was given a
life sentence in exchange for his testimony.
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| User: "Robi" |
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| Title: Re: Tookie gets no help from Schwarzenegger. |
12 Dec 2005 05:34:17 PM |
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David H. wrote:
"Robi" <robi_tola@hotmail.com> wrote in message
[snipped] Are you aware whether there is any
reasonable doubt?
The defense recently said that there was a new witness. Exactly what
that witness would provide is ambiguous.
Here is some cut and paste from The Seattle Times regarding this issue:
[snipped]
Right. Interesting. Thank you for that.
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| User: "chibiabos" |
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| Title: Re: Tookie gets no help from Schwarzenegger. |
12 Dec 2005 05:49:11 PM |
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In article <1134427316.185588.117850@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>,
Robi <robi_tola@hotmail.com> wrote:
I only heard about this in the last few days but many of the news items
I've come across refer to much about the nature of the convictions
without actually giving much detail. Are you aware whether there is any
reasonable doubt?
Forensic & ballistic evidence is rock-solid. We have witnesses placing
Williams at the scene of both murders. He bragged about it to others in
the days following.
The evidence has been reviewed by a jury of 12 people, several lower
appelate courts, the 9th circuit court, the California Supreme Court,
the United States Surpreme court, and now the Governor of the State of
California. Not a single one of these groups or individuals found
reason to doubt his original conviction.
Governor Alphabet specifically stated in his announcement that he
looked ONLY at the evidence that lead to conviction. He did not
consider Tookie's gang past or his recent "redemption" in making his
final decision to let the execution proceed.
-chib
--
Member of SMASH
Sarcastic Middla Aged Atheists with a Sense of Humor
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| User: "Christopher A. Lee" |
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| Title: Re: Tookie gets no help from Schwarzenegger. |
12 Dec 2005 05:38:24 PM |
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On 12 Dec 2005 14:41:56 -0800, "Robi" <robi_tola@hotmail.com> wrote:
I only heard about this in the last few days but many of the news items
I've come across refer to much about the nature of the convictions
without actually giving much detail. Are you aware whether there is any
reasonable doubt?
I don't like the death penalty. But he was convicted of the murders
and sentenced according to the law. I don't se "I've reformed in
prison" as a mitigating factor unless it is applied to everybody on
death row.
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| User: "Ken" |
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| Title: Re: Tookie gets no help from Schwarzenegger. |
14 Dec 2005 05:42:11 PM |
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On Mon, 12 Dec 2005 20:29:26 -0600, Uncle Vic wrote:
The death penalty is supposed to be the ultimate deferral to violent
crime. This has never been shown to be true, in fact it does not defer
violent crime more than any other type of punishment. The only rational
reason to hold on to the death penalty is for the sense of closure it
allows the families and others that were wronged or angered by the
offender. If you think about it, how rational is that?
I assume you mean deterrent.
There is more to the death penalty than that. We expect individuals and
families to give up their right to exact vengeance in our society. We say
to them that the state will provide justice and their individual
contributions to justice are no longer necessary. We promise them that
they will have justice through the legal system. That's how we can
justify locking up vigilantes.
If the legal system doesn't provide some measure of retribution it hasn't
lived up to its end of the bargain. It no longer has the moral authority
to prohibit retribution by wronged individuals and their families.
You may not like the idea of the state engaging in revenge or retribution
as a proxy for the injured parties, but it is a responsibility of the
state. Retribution is part of justice in the opinions of most of the
people, not only in the U.S., but the world.
Here is a list of the countries that still uphold the death penalty.
I really don't know why this is relevant to the discussion.
And here is a list of those countries who have invited rational thinking
into their criminal justice systems, disallowing the death penalty for
all crimes.
Again, why should I care? We can make these lists for many facets of our
legal system. All they show is that there is a range of opinions in the
world about how to do things.
Why not make a list of the countries in which you can be punished for
speech crimes. This list would include France, Germany, England, and many
others. Does this indicate that we should be punishing our own citizens
for speech crimes? Of course not. The list is irrelevant.
- --
Ken
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| User: "Ken" |
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| Title: Re: Tookie gets no help from Schwarzenegger. |
14 Dec 2005 05:53:33 PM |
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On Tue, 13 Dec 2005 04:18:23 +0000, Mephisto wrote:
Quite so. It is also ineffective. It doesn't take away the grief, it
just satisfies a desire for revenge. Legal systems are generally not
supposed to be about revenge. They're supposed to be about punishment,
protection (of society) and rehabilitation.
Exactly where do you think your concept of "punishment" comes from? If it
is not "protection (of society)" and it is not "rehabilitation", it is
revenge or retribution. It is part of our concept of justice.
Certainly we should have a system in which mistakes are minimized. We
don't now, but to advocate completely doing away with the death penalty
seems to be carrying things too far. There are people for which there is
no other appropriate punishment.
I also find it strange that people only become concerned with mistakes in
the justice system when the penalty is death. Certainly the number of
people who will spend the rest of their lives in prison unjustly is a
much, much larger number than those that will unjustly get the death
penalty, and these people don't have the years of mandated review of their
case, they don't have organizations working to free them.
Our justice system requires improvement. The degree of improvement
required is greater for crimes that are not capital crimes. Poor people
don't get adequate counsel. They don't get fair trials. People on trial
for capital crimes are more likely than the drug dealer to get a fair
trial simply due to the amount of review the case is likely to get. When
we look at the number of years that people lose due to injustice, I am
sure that we would find vastly greater numbers when we consider only those
crimes that are not capital crimes.
- --
Ken
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| User: "Mephisto" |
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| Title: Re: Tookie gets no help from Schwarzenegger. |
14 Dec 2005 09:58:19 PM |
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On Wed, 14 Dec 2005 17:53:33 -0600, Ken <nobody@nowhere.com> wrote:
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On Tue, 13 Dec 2005 04:18:23 +0000, Mephisto wrote:
Quite so. It is also ineffective. It doesn't take away the grief, it
just satisfies a desire for revenge. Legal systems are generally not
supposed to be about revenge. They're supposed to be about punishment,
protection (of society) and rehabilitation.
Exactly where do you think your concept of "punishment" comes from? If it
is not "protection (of society)" and it is not "rehabilitation", it is
revenge or retribution. It is part of our concept of justice.
I do not think that revenge is part of our legal system. 'An eye for
an eye' (as in Saudi Arabia and the US) is not something that the UK
legal system aspires to. If someone is dangerous, they will be locked
away to protect society. They will be kept in relatively humane
conditions, and not tortured in any way. No part of that suggests
revenge.
Certainly we should have a system in which mistakes are minimized. We
don't now, but to advocate completely doing away with the death penalty
seems to be carrying things too far. There are people for which there is
no other appropriate punishment.
What happens when the state murders someone - i.e. makes a mistake, or
does not consider valuable evidence for whatever reason? Then the
state becomes the criminal. Do you have the right to execute the
people who passed down the sentence, or the people who carried it out?
If not, why not? Killing an innocent person is either wrong or it is
not.
I also find it strange that people only become concerned with mistakes in
the justice system when the penalty is death. Certainly the number of
people who will spend the rest of their lives in prison unjustly is a
much, much larger number than those that will unjustly get the death
penalty, and these people don't have the years of mandated review of their
case, they don't have organizations working to free them.
Yes they do. All the time. That's why people are freed. It is
obviously preferable that someone can be released and compensated if
they are innocent. A posthumous pardon is no use to anyone.
Our justice system requires improvement. The degree of improvement
required is greater for crimes that are not capital crimes. Poor people
don't get adequate counsel. They don't get fair trials. People on trial
for capital crimes are more likely than the drug dealer to get a fair
trial simply due to the amount of review the case is likely to get. When
we look at the number of years that people lose due to injustice, I am
sure that we would find vastly greater numbers when we consider only those
crimes that are not capital crimes.
If you consider the system to be unfair and prone to mistakes, it
seems odd that you would allow the same system the power to kill.
Mephisto
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: Tookie gets no help from Schwarzenegger. |
13 Dec 2005 02:03:02 AM |
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I think 24 years on death row is cruel and unusual punishment. I'm not
fundamentally opposed to the death penalty, but our judicial system is
so inept that I don't think it is applied fairly. Long legal battles
are expensive; better to condemn the worst criminals to life in prison,
then if, for example, a conviction is overturned because DNA evidence
proves a person's innocence, it's not too late. If there are enough
questions about a death-penalty conviction that appeals drag on for 24
years, then the conviction wasn't iron-clad in the first place.
Better to err on the side of caution - no death penalty - than to kill
even one innocent person who was wrongly convicted.
MLW
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| User: "JTEM" |
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| Title: Re: Tookie gets no help from Schwarzenegger. |
13 Dec 2005 02:29:19 AM |
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<walkmar@easystreet.com> wrote
Long legal battles are expensive; better to condemn
the worst criminals to life in prison, then if, for
example, a conviction is overturned because DNA
evidence proves a person's innocence, it's not too late.
Unfortunately for Tookie, there was never any hope for
that. Despite being convicted of delivering four shotgun
blasts at extremely close range, he never managed to get
a single drop of blood on him.
Nope, no splatter hit him, not one drop touched his shoes.
There simply was never any DNA for anyone to test.
But he's black, so that's okay.
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| User: "Uncle Vic" |
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| Title: Re: Tookie gets no help from Schwarzenegger. |
13 Dec 2005 10:18:07 PM |
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Once upon a time in alt.atheism, dear sweet JTEM (gymraven@hotmail.com)
made the light shine upon us with this:
<walkmar@easystreet.com> wrote
Long legal battles are expensive; better to condemn
the worst criminals to life in prison, then if, for
example, a conviction is overturned because DNA
evidence proves a person's innocence, it's not too late.
Unfortunately for Tookie, there was never any hope for
that. Despite being convicted of delivering four shotgun
blasts at extremely close range, he never managed to get
a single drop of blood on him.
Nope, no splatter hit him, not one drop touched his shoes.
There simply was never any DNA for anyone to test.
But he's black, so that's okay.
And scary-looking.
--
Uncle Vic
aa#2011
Supervisor, EAC Department of little adhesive-backed "L" shaped
chrome-plastic doo-dads to add feet to Jesus fish department
-----
Only the atheist realizes how morally objectionable it is for survivors
of a catastrophe to believe themselves spared by a loving God while this
same God drowned infants in their cribs. - Sam Harris
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| User: "Mephisto" |
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| Title: Re: Tookie gets no help from Schwarzenegger. |
12 Dec 2005 10:18:23 PM |
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On Mon, 12 Dec 2005 20:29:26 -0600, Uncle Vic <address@withheld.com>
wrote:
Once upon a time in alt.atheism, dear sweet Christopher A. Lee
(calee@optonline.net) made the light shine upon us with this:
On 12 Dec 2005 14:41:56 -0800, "Robi" <robi_tola@hotmail.com> wrote:
I only heard about this in the last few days but many of the news items
I've come across refer to much about the nature of the convictions
without actually giving much detail. Are you aware whether there is any
reasonable doubt?
I don't like the death penalty. But he was convicted of the murders
and sentenced according to the law. I don't se "I've reformed in
prison" as a mitigating factor unless it is applied to everybody on
death row.
The death penalty is supposed to be the ultimate deferral to violent
crime. This has never been shown to be true, in fact it does not defer
violent crime more than any other type of punishment. The only rational
reason to hold on to the death penalty is for the sense of closure it
allows the families and others that were wronged or angered by the
offender. If you think about it, how rational is that?
Quite so. It is also ineffective. It doesn't take away the grief, it
just satisfies a desire for revenge. Legal systems are generally not
supposed to be about revenge. They're supposed to be about punishment,
protection (of society) and rehabilitation.
The thing that I find most disturbing about the death penalty is the
fact that the legal system makes mistakes. If you've gassed someone to
death, a pardon isn't going to mean much to them or their family. If
it is not OK for me to kill an innocent person, I fail to see why it
should be OK for the state to do so.
People who support the death penalty might feel differently if a
member of their family were wrongly accused and killed. 230 people
were taken off death row when they were found to be innocent or it was
decided that the sentence was disproportionate to the crime (1973 -
2005). Others were found to be innocent after they'd been killed,
despite Bush's lies to the contrary.
The methods are also barbaric. The systems used in organic
slaughterhouses are far more humane. It's not supposed to be a form of
torture.
Here is a list of the countries that still uphold the death penalty.
AFGHANISTAN, ANTIGUA AND BARBUDA, BAHAMAS, BANGLADESH, BARBADOS, BELARUS,
BELIZE, BOTSWANA, BURUNDI, CAMEROON, CHAD, CHINA, COMOROS, CONGO
(Democratic Republic), CUBA, DOMINICA, EGYPT, EQUATORIAL GUINEA, ERITREA,
ETHIOPIA, GABON, GHANA, GUATEMALA, GUINEA, GUYANA, INDIA, INDONESIA,
IRAN, IRAQ, JAMAICA, JAPAN, JORDAN, KAZAKSTAN, KOREA (North), KOREA
(South), KUWAIT, KYRGYZSTAN, LAOS, LEBANON, LESOTHO, LIBYA, MALAWI,
MALAYSIA, MONGOLIA, NIGERIA, OMAN, PAKISTAN, PALESTINIAN AUTHORITY,
PHILIPPINES, QATAR, RWANDA, SAINT CHRISTOPHER & NEVIS, SAINT LUCIA, SAINT
VINCENT & GRENADINES, SAUDI ARABIA, SIERRA LEONE, SINGAPORE, SOMALIA,
SUDAN, SWAZILAND, SYRIA, TAIWAN, TAJIKISTAN, TANZANIA, THAILAND, TRINIDAD
AND TOBAGO, UGANDA, UNITED ARAB EMIRATES, UNITED STATES OF AMERICA,
UZBEKISTAN, VIET NAM, YEMEN, ZAMBIA, ZIMBABWE
Here's a list of the countries which impose the death penalty on
children in violation of international human rights law:
Democratic Republic of Congo, Iran, Nigeria, Saudi Arabia, the USA.
The USA tops the list with by far the greatest number since 1990.
And here is a list of those countries who have invited rational thinking
into their criminal justice systems, disallowing the death penalty for
all crimes.
I'd be horrified if they brought it back here. It gets dragged up
every once in a while but I doubt there'd be any real support for it
now.
Mephisto
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| User: "Uncle Vic" |
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| Title: Re: Tookie gets no help from Schwarzenegger. |
13 Dec 2005 07:11:26 PM |
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Once upon a time in alt.atheism, dear sweet Mephisto (mephisto@go.away)
made the light shine upon us with this:
And here is a list of those countries who have invited rational thinking
into their criminal justice systems, disallowing the death penalty for
all crimes.
I'd be horrified if they brought it back here. It gets dragged up
every once in a while but I doubt there'd be any real support for it
now.
Much of Europe is outraged by Schwarzenegger's decision to terminate.
http://www.edmontonsun.com/News/World/2005/12/13/1351396.html
Well, it's not Arnold's fault. It's the fault of the Supreme Court in 1976
who brought back Capitol Punishment a scant four years after abolishing it.
I agree with the Europeans. It's barbaric.
--
Uncle Vic
aa#2011
Supervisor, EAC Department of little adhesive-backed "L" shaped
chrome-plastic doo-dads to add feet to Jesus fish department
-----
Only the atheist realizes how morally objectionable it is for survivors of
a catastrophe to believe themselves spared by a loving God while this same
God drowned infants in their cribs. - Sam Harris
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| User: "Mephisto" |
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| Title: Re: Tookie gets no help from Schwarzenegger. |
13 Dec 2005 08:04:20 PM |
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On Tue, 13 Dec 2005 19:11:26 -0600, Uncle Vic <address@withheld.com>
wrote:
Once upon a time in alt.atheism, dear sweet Mephisto (mephisto@go.away)
made the light shine upon us with this:
And here is a list of those countries who have invited rational thinking
into their criminal justice systems, disallowing the death penalty for
all crimes.
I'd be horrified if they brought it back here. It gets dragged up
every once in a while but I doubt there'd be any real support for it
now.
Much of Europe is outraged by Schwarzenegger's decision to terminate.
http://www.edmontonsun.com/News/World/2005/12/13/1351396.html
Well, it's not Arnold's fault. It's the fault of the Supreme Court in 1976
who brought back Capitol Punishment a scant four years after abolishing it.
I agree with the Europeans. It's barbaric.
He presumably has the choice to remove the death penalty in
California? IIRC, it doesn't exist in some states.
Mephisto
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| User: "Uncle Vic" |
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| Title: Re: Tookie gets no help from Schwarzenegger. |
13 Dec 2005 09:15:09 PM |
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Once upon a time in alt.atheism, dear sweet Mephisto (mephisto@go.away)
made the light shine upon us with this:
On Tue, 13 Dec 2005 19:11:26 -0600, Uncle Vic <address@withheld.com>
wrote:
Once upon a time in alt.atheism, dear sweet Mephisto
(mephisto@go.away) made the light shine upon us with this:
And here is a list of those countries who have invited rational
thinking into their criminal justice systems, disallowing the death
penalty for all crimes.
I'd be horrified if they brought it back here. It gets dragged up
every once in a while but I doubt there'd be any real support for it
now.
Much of Europe is outraged by Schwarzenegger's decision to terminate.
http://www.edmontonsun.com/News/World/2005/12/13/1351396.html
Well, it's not Arnold's fault. It's the fault of the Supreme Court in
1976 who brought back Capitol Punishment a scant four years after
abolishing it. I agree with the Europeans. It's barbaric.
He presumably has the choice to remove the death penalty in
California? IIRC, it doesn't exist in some states.
He can grant clemency and commute a death sentence to life without
parole. He's fighting for popularity right now, in his failing attempt
to get California's budget back on line. I think the portion of citizens
(at least of the USA) that support the DP is around 70%, so letting the
birds out of their cages is not going to help in that respect. You're
right, the DP is illegal in about a dozen states. Most of them are blue
states, the ones who favored Kerry over Bush in the last election. Of
course.
--
Uncle Vic
aa#2011
Supervisor, EAC Department of little adhesive-backed "L" shaped
chrome-plastic doo-dads to add feet to Jesus fish department
-----
Only the atheist realizes how morally objectionable it is for survivors
of a catastrophe to believe themselves spared by a loving God while this
same God drowned infants in their cribs. - Sam Harris
.
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| User: "Mephisto" |
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| Title: Re: Tookie gets no help from Schwarzenegger. |
13 Dec 2005 10:15:09 PM |
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On Tue, 13 Dec 2005 21:15:09 -0600, Uncle Vic <address@withheld.com>
wrote:
Once upon a time in alt.atheism, dear sweet Mephisto (mephisto@go.away)
made the light shine upon us with this:
On Tue, 13 Dec 2005 19:11:26 -0600, Uncle Vic <address@withheld.com>
wrote:
Once upon a time in alt.atheism, dear sweet Mephisto
(mephisto@go.away) made the light shine upon us with this:
And here is a list of those countries who have invited rational
thinking into their criminal justice systems, disallowing the death
penalty for all crimes.
I'd be horrified if they brought it back here. It gets dragged up
every once in a while but I doubt there'd be any real support for it
now.
Much of Europe is outraged by Schwarzenegger's decision to terminate.
http://www.edmontonsun.com/News/World/2005/12/13/1351396.html
Well, it's not Arnold's fault. It's the fault of the Supreme Court in
1976 who brought back Capitol Punishment a scant four years after
abolishing it. I agree with the Europeans. It's barbaric.
He presumably has the choice to remove the death penalty in
California? IIRC, it doesn't exist in some states.
He can grant clemency and commute a death sentence to life without
parole. He's fighting for popularity right now, in his failing attempt
to get California's budget back on line. I think the portion of citizens
(at least of the USA) that support the DP is around 70%, so letting the
birds out of their cages is not going to help in that respect. You're
right, the DP is illegal in about a dozen states. Most of them are blue
states, the ones who favored Kerry over Bush in the last election. Of
course.
Yes, I suppose I should have assumed that :-) 70% is very high. I
suppose it is a democracy, although it's frightening to think that so
few people are willing to consider the fate of the innocent victims of
the vendetta.
If Arnie could have granted clemency, then IMO he is ultimately
responsible for the sentence.
I still can't get used to the idea that he's a politician now and that
people take him seriously. It's like some kind of weird dream. I
imagine some people felt the same way when Reagan moved from Hollywood
to the Whitehouse.
Mephisto
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| User: "Uncle Vic" |
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| Title: Re: Tookie gets no help from Schwarzenegger. |
13 Dec 2005 11:16:04 PM |
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Once upon a time in alt.atheism, dear sweet Mephisto (mephisto@go.away)
made the light shine upon us with this:
If Arnie could have granted clemency, then IMO he is ultimately
responsible for the sentence.
I still can't get used to the idea that he's a politician now and that
people take him seriously. It's like some kind of weird dream.
Imagine living here, in Khalifornia. We call him the Governator.
I
imagine some people felt the same way when Reagan moved from Hollywood
to the Whitehouse.
He too went through California.
--
Uncle Vic
aa#2011
Supervisor, EAC Department of little adhesive-backed "L" shaped
chrome-plastic doo-dads to add feet to Jesus fish department
-----
Only the atheist realizes how morally objectionable it is for survivors of
a catastrophe to believe themselves spared by a loving God while this same
God drowned infants in their cribs. - Sam Harris
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| User: "Mephisto" |
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| Title: Re: Tookie gets no help from Schwarzenegger. |
14 Dec 2005 09:19:54 PM |
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On Tue, 13 Dec 2005 23:16:04 -0600, Uncle Vic <address@withheld.com>
wrote:
Once upon a time in alt.atheism, dear sweet Mephisto (mephisto@go.away)
made the light shine upon us with this:
If Arnie could have granted clemency, then IMO he is ultimately
responsible for the sentence.
I still can't get used to the idea that he's a politician now and that
people take him seriously. It's like some kind of weird dream.
Imagine living here, in Khalifornia. We call him the Governator.
LOL! If I were forced to move to California I'd haver to live in SF. I
didn't think much of LA, and the people in the rest of the places I
visited frightened me.
I
imagine some people felt the same way when Reagan moved from Hollywood
to the Whitehouse.
He too went through California.
Why can't they go for someone sensible, like Johnny Depp?
Mephisto
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| User: "Uncle Vic" |
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| Title: Re: Tookie gets no help from Schwarzenegger. |
14 Dec 2005 11:10:13 PM |
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Once upon a time in alt.atheism, dear sweet Mephisto (mephisto@go.away)
made the light shine upon us with this:
I
imagine some people felt the same way when Reagan moved from Hollywood
to the Whitehouse.
He too went through California.
Why can't they go for someone sensible, like Johnny Depp?
Who better for the power to veto the Death Penalty than Edward
Scissorhands?
--
Uncle Vic
aa#2011
Supervisor, EAC Department of little adhesive-backed "L" shaped
chrome-plastic doo-dads to add feet to Jesus fish department
-----
Only the atheist realizes how morally objectionable it is for survivors of
a catastrophe to believe themselves spared by a loving God while this same
God drowned infants in their cribs. - Sam Harris
.
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| User: "Mephisto" |
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| Title: Re: Tookie gets no help from Schwarzenegger. |
15 Dec 2005 07:45:29 PM |
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On Wed, 14 Dec 2005 23:10:13 -0600, Uncle Vic <address@withheld.com>
wrote:
Once upon a time in alt.atheism, dear sweet Mephisto (mephisto@go.away)
made the light shine upon us with this:
I
imagine some people felt the same way when Reagan moved from Hollywood
to the Whitehouse.
He too went through California.
Why can't they go for someone sensible, like Johnny Depp?
Who better for the power to veto the Death Penalty than Edward
Scissorhands?
LOL! Why the hell not?
Johnny does seem to be one of the few 'stars' with his head screwed on
though. For a start, he moved to France.
Mephisto
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| User: "Uncle Vic" |
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| Title: Re: Tookie gets no help from Schwarzenegger. |
15 Dec 2005 10:52:07 PM |
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Once upon a time in alt.atheism, dear sweet Mephisto (mephisto@go.away)
made the light shine upon us with this:
On Wed, 14 Dec 2005 23:10:13 -0600, Uncle Vic <address@withheld.com>
wrote:
Once upon a time in alt.atheism, dear sweet Mephisto
(mephisto@go.away) made the light shine upon us with this:
I
imagine some people felt the same way when Reagan moved from
Hollywood to the Whitehouse.
He too went through California.
Why can't they go for someone sensible, like Johnny Depp?
Who better for the power to veto the Death Penalty than Edward
Scissorhands?
LOL! Why the hell not?
Johnny does seem to be one of the few 'stars' with his head screwed on
though. For a start, he moved to France.
Damn. That reminds me, I have to check the lotto numbers for yesterday.
If I win I'm moving to Norway.
--
Uncle Vic
aa#2011
Supervisor, EAC Department of little adhesive-backed "L" shaped
chrome-plastic doo-dads to add feet to Jesus fish department
-----
Only the atheist realizes how morally objectionable it is for survivors
of a catastrophe to believe themselves spared by a loving God while this
same God drowned infants in their cribs. - Sam Harris
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