Top 10 Scientific Arguments Against Same Sex Marriage



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Topic: Religions > Atheism
User: "Sound of Trumpet"
Date: 09 Jun 2006 09:24:52 PM
Object: Top 10 Scientific Arguments Against Same Sex Marriage
http://www.religiouscoalitionformarriage.org/html/top_ten.php
Top 10 Social Scientific Arguments Against Same Sex Marriage (SSM)
A large and growing body of social scientific evidence indicates that
the intact, married family is best for children. In particular, see
work by David Popenoe, Linda Waite, Maggie Gallagher, Sara McLanahan,
David Blankenhorn, Paul Amato, and Alan Booth. This statement from Sara
McLahanan, a sociologist at Princeton University, is representative:
"If we were asked to design a system for making sure that
children's basic needs were met, we would probably come up with
something quite similar to the two-parent ideal. Such a design, in
theory, would not only ensure that children had access to the time and
money of two adults, it also would provide a system of checks and
balances that promoted quality parenting. The fact that both parents
have a biological connection to the child would increase the likelihood
that the parents would identify with the child and be willing to
sacrifice for that child, and it would reduce the likelihood that
either parent would abuse the child."
* Sara McLanahan and Gary Sandefur. 1994. Growing Up with a Single
Parent: What Hurts, What Helps. Harvard University Press. p. 38.
1. Children hunger for their biological parents
SS couples using IVF or surrogate mothers deliberately create a class
of children who will live apart from their mother or father. Yale Child
Study Center psychiatrist Kyle Pruett reports that children of IVF
often ask their single or lesbian mothers about their fathers, asking
their mothers questions like the following: "Mommy, what did you do
with my daddy?" "Can I write him a letter?" "Has he ever seen
me?" "Didn't you like him? Didn't he like me?" Elizabeth
Marquardt reports that children of divorce often report similar
feelings about their non-custodial parent, usually the father.
* Kyle Pruett. 2000. Fatherneed. Broadway. p. 204.
* Elizabeth Marquardt. 2004. The Moral and Spiritual Lives of Children
of Divorce. Forthcoming.
2. Children need fathers
If SSM becomes common, most SS couples with children would be lesbians.
This means that we would have yet more children being raised apart from
fathers. Among other things, we know that fathers excel in reducing
antisocial behavior/delinquency in boys and sexual activity in girls.
What is fascinating is that fathers exercise a unique social and
biological influence on their children. For instance, a recent study of
father absence on girls found that girls who grew up apart from their
biological father were much more likely to experience early puberty and
a teen pregnancy than girls who spent their entire childhood in an
intact family. This study, along with David Popenoe's work, suggests
that a father's pheromones influence the biological development of
his daughter, that a strong marriage provides a model for girls of what
to look for in a man, and gives them the confidence to resist the
sexual entreaties of their boyfriends.
* Ellis, Bruce J., Bates, John E., Dodge, Kenneth A., Fergusson, David
M., Horwood, L. John, Pettit, Gregory S., & Woodward, Lianne. Does
Father Absence Place Daughters at Special Risk for Early Sexual
Activity and Teenage Pregnancy?. Child Development, 74, 801-821.
* David Popenoe. 1996. Life Without Father. Harvard.
3. Children need mothers
Although gay men are less likely to have children than lesbians, there
will be and are gay men raising children. There will be even more if
SSM is legalized. These households deny children a mother. Among other
things, mothers excel in providing children with emotional security and
in reading the physical and emotional cues of infants. Obviously, they
also give their daughters unique counsel as they confront the physical,
emotional, and social challenges associated with puberty and
adolescence. Stanford psychologist Eleanor Maccoby summarizes much of
this literature in her book The Two Sexes. See also Steven Rhoads'
book, which comes out in the fall.
* Eleanor Maccoby. 1998. The Two Sexes. Harvard.
* Steven Rhoads. 2004. Taking Sex Differences Seriously. Encounter.
4. Inadequate evidence on SS couple parenting
A number of leading professional associations have asserted that there
are "no effects" of SS couple parenting on children. But the
research in this area is quite preliminary; most of the studies are
done by advocates and most suffer from serious methodological problems.
Sociologist Steven Nock of the University of Virginia, who is agnostic
on SSM, offered this review of the literature on gay parenting as an
expert witness for a Canadian Court considering SSM: "Through this
analysis I draw my conclusions that 1) all of the articles I reviewed
contained at least one fatal flaw of design or execution; and 2) not a
single one of those studies was conducted according to general accepted
standards of scientific research." This is not exactly the kind of
social scientific evidence you would want to launch a major family
experiment.
*Steven Nock. 2001. Affidavit to the Ontario Superior Court of Justice
regarding Hedy Halpern et al. University of Virginia Sociology
Department.
5. Children raised in SS homes experience gender and sexual disorders
Although the evidence on child outcomes is sketchy, the evidence does
suggest that children raised by lesbians or gay men are more likely to
experience gender and sexual disorders. Judith Stacey-an advocate for
SSM and a sociologist-reviewed the literature on child outcomes and
found the following: "lesbian parenting may free daughters and sons
from a broad but uneven range of traditional gender prescriptions."
Her conclusion here is based on studies that show that sons of lesbians
are less masculine and that daughters of lesbians are more masculine.
She also found that a "significantly greater proportion of young
adult children raised by lesbian mothers than those raised by
heterosexual mothers... reported having a homoerotic relationship."
Stacey also observes that children of lesbians are more likely to
report homoerotic attractions. Her review must be view judiciously,
given the methodological flaws detailed by Professor Nock in the
literature as a whole. Nevertheless, theses studies give some credence
to conservative concerns about the effects of SS couple parenting.
*Judith Stacey and Timothy Biblarz. 2001. "(How) Does the Sexual
Orientation of Parents Matter?" American Sociological Review 66:
159-183. See especially pp. 168-171.
6. Vive la difference
If SSM is institutionalized, our society would take yet another step
down the road of de-gendering marriage. There would me more use of
gender-neutral language like "partners" and-more
importantly-more social/cultural pressures to neuter our thinking and
our behaviors in marriage. But marriages typically thrive when spouses
specialize in gender-typical ways and are attentive to the gendered
needs and aspirations of their husband or wife. For instance, women are
happier when their husband earns the lion's share of the household
income. Likewise, couples are less likely to divorce when the wife
concentrates on childrearing and the husband concentrates on
breadwinning, as University of Virginia Psychologist Mavis Hetherington
admits.
* E. Mavis Hetherington & John Kelly. 2002. For Better of For Worse.
Norton. P. 31.
* Steven Rhoads. 2004. Taking Sex Differences Seriously. Encounter.
7. Sexual fidelity
One of the biggest threats that SSM poses to marriage is that it would
probably undercut the norm of sexual fidelity in marriage. In the first
edition of his book in defense of marriage, Virtually Normal, Andrew
Sullivan wrote: "There is more likely to be greater understanding of
the need for extramarital outlets between two men than between a man
and a woman." This line of thinking, of course, were it incorporated
into marriage and telegraphed to the public in sitcoms, magazines, and
other mass media, would do enormous harm to the norm of sexual fidelity
in marriage. One recent study of civil unions and marriages in Vermont
suggests this is a very real concern. More than 79 percent of
heterosexual married men and women, along with lesbians in civil
unions, reported that they strongly valued sexual fidelity. Only about
50 percent of gay men in civil unions valued sexual fidelity.
* Esther Rothblum and Sondra Solomon. 2003. Civil Unions in the State
of Vermont: A Report on the First Year. University of Vermont
Department of Psychology.
* David McWhirter and Andrew Mattison. 1984. The Male Couple. Prentice
Hall. P. 252.
8. Marriage, procreation, and the fertility implosion
Traditionally, marriage and procreation have been tightly connected to
one another. Indeed, from a sociological perspective, the primary
purpose that marriage serves is to secure a mother and father for each
child who is born into a society. Now, however, many Westerners see
marriage in primarily emotional terms. Among other things, the danger
with this mentality is that it fosters an anti-natalist mindset that
fuels population decline, which in turn puts tremendous social,
political, and economic strains on the larger society. SSM would only
further undercut the procreative norm long associated with marriage
insofar as it establishes that there is no necessary link between
procreation and marriage. This was spelled out in the Goodridge
decision in Massachusetts, where the majority opinion dismissed the
procreative meaning of marriage. It is no accident that the countries
that have legalized or are considering legalizing SSM have some of the
lowest fertility rates in the world. For instance, the Netherlands,
Sweden, and Canada have birthrates that hover around 1.6 children per
woman-well below the replacement fertility rate of 2.1.
* For national fertility rates
* For the growing disconnect between marriage and procreation
9. For the sake of the children.
The divorce and sexual revolutions of the last four decades has
seriously undercut the norm that couples should get and stay married if
they intend to have children, are expecting a child, or already have
children. Political scientist James Q. Wilson reports that the
introduction of no-fault divorce further destabilized marriage by
weakening the legal and cultural meaning of the marriage contract.
George Akerlof, a Nobel laureate and an economist, found that the
widespread availability of contraception and abortion in the 1960s and
1970s, and the sexual revolution they enabled, made it easier for men
to abandon women they got pregnant, since they could always blame their
girlfriends for not using contraception or procuring an abortion. It is
plausible to suspect that SSM would have similar consequences for
marriage, that is, it would further destabilize the norm that adults
should sacrifice to get and stay married for the sake of their
children. Why? SSM would institutionalize the idea that children do not
need both their mother and their father. This would be particularly
important for men, who are more likely to abandon their children. SSM
would make it even easier than it already is for men to rationalize
their abandonment of their children. After all, they could tell
themselves, our society, which affirms lesbian couples raising
children, believes that children do not need a father. So, they might
tell themselves, I do not need to marry or stay married to the mother
of my children.
* James Q. Wilson. 2002. The Marriage Problem. Basic. PP. 175-177.
* George A. Akerlof, Janet L. Yellen, and Michael L. Katz. 1996. "An
Analysis of Out-of-Wedlock Childbearing in the United States."
Quarterly Journal of Economics CXI: 277-317.
10. Women & marriage domesticate men.
Men who are married earn more, work harder, drink less, live longer,
spend more time attending religious services, and are more sexually
faithful. They also see their testosterone levels drop, especially when
they have children in the home. If the distinctive sexual patterns of
"committed" gay couples are any indication (see above), it is
unlikely that SSM would domesticate men in the way that heterosexual
marriage does. It is also extremely unlikely that the biological
effects of heterosexual marriage on men would also be found in SSM.
Thus, gay activists like Andrew Sullivan who argue that gay marriage
will domesticate gay men are-in all likelihood-clinging to a
foolish hope. This foolish hope does not justify yet another effort to
meddle with marriage.
* Steve Nock. 1998. Marriage in Men's Lives. Oxford.
* Institute for American Values. 2003. Hardwired to Connect. P. 17.
.

User: "No One"

Title: Re: Top 10 Scientific Arguments Against Same Sex Marriage 12 Jun 2006 01:26:33 PM
"Sound of Trumpet" <soundoftrumpet@fastmail.fm> writes:

http://www.religiouscoalitionformarriage.org/html/top_ten.php
Top 10 Social Scientific Arguments Against Same Sex Marriage (SSM)

[most nonsense snipped]

7. Sexual fidelity

One of the biggest threats that SSM poses to marriage is that it would
probably undercut the norm of sexual fidelity in marriage.

This has got to be the funniest one yet. Read
<http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2006/06/12/DDGJSJBSTU1.DTL>
for a review of a production of the _Marriage of Figaro_, written over
200 years ago:
The Countess, neglected by the husband who had wooed her so
ardently just two years earlier (in "The Barber of Seville"),
obviously has a special place in the composer's affections.
But the piece is just as concerned with the attempts of the
servants Figaro and Susanna to get hitched without having to
fend off the Count's lecherous designs, and as fondly
indulgent of the young page Cherubino's hormone-ridden
attempts to find love, or at least a quick canoodle, with any
and every female in the palace.
And people laughed and laughed because it was all so true! And, as
Eva Gabor, playing Aunt Alicia, said in _Gigi_, "Bad table manners
have broken up more households than infidelity."
Or (from the same film):
Honore Lachaille: I'll tell you about that blue villa,
Mamita. I was so much in love with you I wanted to marry
you. Yes, it's true. I was beginning to think of
marriage. Imagine: marriage, me! Oh no, I was really
desperate! I had to do something, and what I did was the
soprano!
Madame Alvarez: Thank you Honore. That was the most charming
and endearing excuse for infidelity I've ever heard.
or (again from the same film):
Honore Lachaille: Good afternoon. As you see, this lovely city
all around us is Paris, and this lovely park is of course the
Bois de Boulogne. Who am I? Well, allow me to introduce
myself: I am Honore Lachaille. Born: Paris. When:
[laughs]
Honore Lachaille: not lately. This is 1900, so let's just say
not in this century. Circumstances: comfortable. Profession:
lover, and collector of beautiful things. Not antiques mind
you, younger things.
[glances at elderly woman passing by]
Honore Lachaille: Yes, definitely younger. Married: what for?
Now please don't misunderstand. Like everywhere else, most
people in Paris get married, but not all. There are some who
will not marry, and some who do not marry. But in Paris, those
who will not marry are usually men, and those who do not marry
are usually women.
.

User: "Peacenik"

Title: Re: Top 10 Scientific Arguments Against Same Sex Marriage 10 Jun 2006 04:10:14 AM
"Sound of Trumpet" <soundoftrumpet@fastmail.fm> wrote in message
news:1149906292.404226.242610@u72g2000cwu.googlegroups.com...



1. Children hunger for their biological parents

They hunger for their parents. You want to break up gay families.
I find it interesting that DIVORCE is mich higher in the Bible Belt than
elsewhere in the US.

2. Children need fathers

Gay couples can provide them with TWO fathers.

3. Children need mothers

Gay couples can provide them with TWO mothers.

4. Inadequate evidence on SS couple parenting

And therefore it should stop? Does not follow.

5. Children raised in SS homes experience gender and sexual disorders

So do those raised in OS homes. It;s normal.

6. Vive la difference

You are AFRAID of those who are different.

7. Sexual fidelity

Happens in straight families too.

8. Marriage, procreation, and the fertility implosion

Gays getting married will stop heterosexual couples from reproducing? Huh?

9. For the sake of the children.

How many freedoms do we hjave to lose "for the sake of the children"?

10. Women & marriage domesticate men.

<snicker> Whsh-tsh! Whipped by that *****!
What a load of tripe!!
.

User: "Budikka666"

Title: Top 10 Lies Told By Sound of Trumpet 09 Jun 2006 09:47:56 PM
1. That he doesn't lie
2. That he tells the truth
3. That he has a clue
4. That he can support his claims with useful, undistorted evidence
5. That he has anything of value to say
6. That he has anything original to say
7. That he never simply reposts the lies of others
8. That he ever offers supportive argument
9. That his claims make sense
10. That he hasn't had his sorry, lying ***** kicked every time he posts
something
Budikka
.

User: ""

Title: Re: Top 10 Scientific Arguments Against Same Sex Marriage 10 Jun 2006 08:40:53 AM
Hilarious Song about Same Sex Marriage. Take a time out from the
debate and read this blog then listen to this song. It is the funniest
take on this topic I have heard yet.
http://www.myspace.com/marcbridge
Sound of Trumpet wrote:

http://www.religiouscoalitionformarriage.org/html/top_ten.php



Top 10 Social Scientific Arguments Against Same Sex Marriage (SSM)


A large and growing body of social scientific evidence indicates that
the intact, married family is best for children. In particular, see
work by David Popenoe, Linda Waite, Maggie Gallagher, Sara McLanahan,
David Blankenhorn, Paul Amato, and Alan Booth. This statement from Sara
McLahanan, a sociologist at Princeton University, is representative:
"If we were asked to design a system for making sure that
children's basic needs were met, we would probably come up with
something quite similar to the two-parent ideal. Such a design, in
theory, would not only ensure that children had access to the time and
money of two adults, it also would provide a system of checks and
balances that promoted quality parenting. The fact that both parents
have a biological connection to the child would increase the likelihood
that the parents would identify with the child and be willing to
sacrifice for that child, and it would reduce the likelihood that
either parent would abuse the child."
* Sara McLanahan and Gary Sandefur. 1994. Growing Up with a Single
Parent: What Hurts, What Helps. Harvard University Press. p. 38.

1. Children hunger for their biological parents

SS couples using IVF or surrogate mothers deliberately create a class
of children who will live apart from their mother or father. Yale Child
Study Center psychiatrist Kyle Pruett reports that children of IVF
often ask their single or lesbian mothers about their fathers, asking
their mothers questions like the following: "Mommy, what did you do
with my daddy?" "Can I write him a letter?" "Has he ever seen
me?" "Didn't you like him? Didn't he like me?" Elizabeth
Marquardt reports that children of divorce often report similar
feelings about their non-custodial parent, usually the father.
* Kyle Pruett. 2000. Fatherneed. Broadway. p. 204.
* Elizabeth Marquardt. 2004. The Moral and Spiritual Lives of Children
of Divorce. Forthcoming.

2. Children need fathers

If SSM becomes common, most SS couples with children would be lesbians.
This means that we would have yet more children being raised apart from
fathers. Among other things, we know that fathers excel in reducing
antisocial behavior/delinquency in boys and sexual activity in girls.
What is fascinating is that fathers exercise a unique social and
biological influence on their children. For instance, a recent study of
father absence on girls found that girls who grew up apart from their
biological father were much more likely to experience early puberty and
a teen pregnancy than girls who spent their entire childhood in an
intact family. This study, along with David Popenoe's work, suggests
that a father's pheromones influence the biological development of
his daughter, that a strong marriage provides a model for girls of what
to look for in a man, and gives them the confidence to resist the
sexual entreaties of their boyfriends.
* Ellis, Bruce J., Bates, John E., Dodge, Kenneth A., Fergusson, David
M., Horwood, L. John, Pettit, Gregory S., & Woodward, Lianne. Does
Father Absence Place Daughters at Special Risk for Early Sexual
Activity and Teenage Pregnancy?. Child Development, 74, 801-821.
* David Popenoe. 1996. Life Without Father. Harvard.

3. Children need mothers

Although gay men are less likely to have children than lesbians, there
will be and are gay men raising children. There will be even more if
SSM is legalized. These households deny children a mother. Among other
things, mothers excel in providing children with emotional security and
in reading the physical and emotional cues of infants. Obviously, they
also give their daughters unique counsel as they confront the physical,
emotional, and social challenges associated with puberty and
adolescence. Stanford psychologist Eleanor Maccoby summarizes much of
this literature in her book The Two Sexes. See also Steven Rhoads'
book, which comes out in the fall.
* Eleanor Maccoby. 1998. The Two Sexes. Harvard.
* Steven Rhoads. 2004. Taking Sex Differences Seriously. Encounter.

4. Inadequate evidence on SS couple parenting

A number of leading professional associations have asserted that there
are "no effects" of SS couple parenting on children. But the
research in this area is quite preliminary; most of the studies are
done by advocates and most suffer from serious methodological problems.
Sociologist Steven Nock of the University of Virginia, who is agnostic
on SSM, offered this review of the literature on gay parenting as an
expert witness for a Canadian Court considering SSM: "Through this
analysis I draw my conclusions that 1) all of the articles I reviewed
contained at least one fatal flaw of design or execution; and 2) not a
single one of those studies was conducted according to general accepted
standards of scientific research." This is not exactly the kind of
social scientific evidence you would want to launch a major family
experiment.
*Steven Nock. 2001. Affidavit to the Ontario Superior Court of Justice
regarding Hedy Halpern et al. University of Virginia Sociology
Department.


5. Children raised in SS homes experience gender and sexual disorders

Although the evidence on child outcomes is sketchy, the evidence does
suggest that children raised by lesbians or gay men are more likely to
experience gender and sexual disorders. Judith Stacey-an advocate for
SSM and a sociologist-reviewed the literature on child outcomes and
found the following: "lesbian parenting may free daughters and sons
from a broad but uneven range of traditional gender prescriptions."
Her conclusion here is based on studies that show that sons of lesbians
are less masculine and that daughters of lesbians are more masculine.
She also found that a "significantly greater proportion of young
adult children raised by lesbian mothers than those raised by
heterosexual mothers... reported having a homoerotic relationship."
Stacey also observes that children of lesbians are more likely to
report homoerotic attractions. Her review must be view judiciously,
given the methodological flaws detailed by Professor Nock in the
literature as a whole. Nevertheless, theses studies give some credence
to conservative concerns about the effects of SS couple parenting.
*Judith Stacey and Timothy Biblarz. 2001. "(How) Does the Sexual
Orientation of Parents Matter?" American Sociological Review 66:
159-183. See especially pp. 168-171.

6. Vive la difference

If SSM is institutionalized, our society would take yet another step
down the road of de-gendering marriage. There would me more use of
gender-neutral language like "partners" and-more
importantly-more social/cultural pressures to neuter our thinking and
our behaviors in marriage. But marriages typically thrive when spouses
specialize in gender-typical ways and are attentive to the gendered
needs and aspirations of their husband or wife. For instance, women are
happier when their husband earns the lion's share of the household
income. Likewise, couples are less likely to divorce when the wife
concentrates on childrearing and the husband concentrates on
breadwinning, as University of Virginia Psychologist Mavis Hetherington
admits.
* E. Mavis Hetherington & John Kelly. 2002. For Better of For Worse.
Norton. P. 31.
* Steven Rhoads. 2004. Taking Sex Differences Seriously. Encounter.

7. Sexual fidelity

One of the biggest threats that SSM poses to marriage is that it would
probably undercut the norm of sexual fidelity in marriage. In the first
edition of his book in defense of marriage, Virtually Normal, Andrew
Sullivan wrote: "There is more likely to be greater understanding of
the need for extramarital outlets between two men than between a man
and a woman." This line of thinking, of course, were it incorporated
into marriage and telegraphed to the public in sitcoms, magazines, and
other mass media, would do enormous harm to the norm of sexual fidelity
in marriage. One recent study of civil unions and marriages in Vermont
suggests this is a very real concern. More than 79 percent of
heterosexual married men and women, along with lesbians in civil
unions, reported that they strongly valued sexual fidelity. Only about
50 percent of gay men in civil unions valued sexual fidelity.
* Esther Rothblum and Sondra Solomon. 2003. Civil Unions in the State
of Vermont: A Report on the First Year. University of Vermont
Department of Psychology.
* David McWhirter and Andrew Mattison. 1984. The Male Couple. Prentice
Hall. P. 252.

8. Marriage, procreation, and the fertility implosion

Traditionally, marriage and procreation have been tightly connected to
one another. Indeed, from a sociological perspective, the primary
purpose that marriage serves is to secure a mother and father for each
child who is born into a society. Now, however, many Westerners see
marriage in primarily emotional terms. Among other things, the danger
with this mentality is that it fosters an anti-natalist mindset that
fuels population decline, which in turn puts tremendous social,
political, and economic strains on the larger society. SSM would only
further undercut the procreative norm long associated with marriage
insofar as it establishes that there is no necessary link between
procreation and marriage. This was spelled out in the Goodridge
decision in Massachusetts, where the majority opinion dismissed the
procreative meaning of marriage. It is no accident that the countries
that have legalized or are considering legalizing SSM have some of the
lowest fertility rates in the world. For instance, the Netherlands,
Sweden, and Canada have birthrates that hover around 1.6 children per
woman-well below the replacement fertility rate of 2.1.
* For national fertility rates
* For the growing disconnect between marriage and procreation

9. For the sake of the children.

The divorce and sexual revolutions of the last four decades has
seriously undercut the norm that couples should get and stay married if
they intend to have children, are expecting a child, or already have
children. Political scientist James Q. Wilson reports that the
introduction of no-fault divorce further destabilized marriage by
weakening the legal and cultural meaning of the marriage contract.
George Akerlof, a Nobel laureate and an economist, found that the
widespread availability of contraception and abortion in the 1960s and
1970s, and the sexual revolution they enabled, made it easier for men
to abandon women they got pregnant, since they could always blame their
girlfriends for not using contraception or procuring an abortion. It is
plausible to suspect that SSM would have similar consequences for
marriage, that is, it would further destabilize the norm that adults
should sacrifice to get and stay married for the sake of their
children. Why? SSM would institutionalize the idea that children do not
need both their mother and their father. This would be particularly
important for men, who are more likely to abandon their children. SSM
would make it even easier than it already is for men to rationalize
their abandonment of their children. After all, they could tell
themselves, our society, which affirms lesbian couples raising
children, believes that children do not need a father. So, they might
tell themselves, I do not need to marry or stay married to the mother
of my children.
* James Q. Wilson. 2002. The Marriage Problem. Basic. PP. 175-177.
* George A. Akerlof, Janet L. Yellen, and Michael L. Katz. 1996. "An
Analysis of Out-of-Wedlock Childbearing in the United States."
Quarterly Journal of Economics CXI: 277-317.

10. Women & marriage domesticate men.

Men who are married earn more, work harder, drink less, live longer,
spend more time attending religious services, and are more sexually
faithful. They also see their testosterone levels drop, especially when
they have children in the home. If the distinctive sexual patterns of
"committed" gay couples are any indication (see above), it is
unlikely that SSM would domesticate men in the way that heterosexual
marriage does. It is also extremely unlikely that the biological
effects of heterosexual marriage on men would also be found in SSM.
Thus, gay activists like Andrew Sullivan who argue that gay marriage
will domesticate gay men are-in all likelihood-clinging to a
foolish hope. This foolish hope does not justify yet another effort to
meddle with marriage.
* Steve Nock. 1998. Marriage in Men's Lives. Oxford.
* Institute for American Values. 2003. Hardwired to Connect. P. 17.

.
User: "Strife767"

Title: Re: Top 10 Scientific Arguments Against Same Sex Marriage 10 Jun 2006 01:19:35 PM
On 10 Jun 2006 06:40:53 -0700,
wrote:

Hilarious Song about Same Sex Marriage. Take a time out from the
debate and read this blog then listen to this song. It is the funniest
take on this topic I have heard yet.

http://www.myspace.com/marcbridge

LOL, hilarious stuff. That's a great song. :)
.
User: ""

Title: Re: Top 10 Scientific Arguments Against Same Sex Marriage 10 Jun 2006 05:23:25 PM
Thanks for taking the time to listen and provide me feedback.
Regards, /marc
Strife767 wrote:

On 10 Jun 2006 06:40:53 -0700,

wrote:

Hilarious Song about Same Sex Marriage. Take a time out from the
debate and read this blog then listen to this song. It is the funniest
take on this topic I have heard yet.

http://www.myspace.com/marcbridge


LOL, hilarious stuff. That's a great song. :)

.



User: "johac"

Title: Re: Top 10 Scientific Arguments Against Same Sex Marriage 10 Jun 2006 12:59:17 AM
In article <1149906292.404226.242610@u72g2000cwu.googlegroups.com>,
"Sound of Trumpet" <soundoftrumpet@fastmail.fm> wrote:

http://www.religiouscoalitionformarriage.org/html/top_ten.php



Top 10 Social Scientific Arguments Against Same Sex Marriage (SSM)


Admit it. You're a bigot.
--
John Hachmann aa #1782
"Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities"
-Voltaire
Contact - Throw a .net over the .com
.

User: "Lars Eighner"

Title: Re: Top 10 Scientific Arguments Against Same Sex Marriage 10 Jun 2006 12:35:23 AM
In our last episode,
<1149906292.404226.242610@u72g2000cwu.googlegroups.com>, the lovely and
talented Sound of Trumpet broadcast on alt.politics.homosexuality:

Top 10 Social Scientific Arguments Against Same Sex Marriage (SSM)
1. Children hunger for their biological parents

Has nothing whatever to do with same-sex marriage.

2. Children need fathers

Relates in no way to same-wex marriage.

3. Children need mothers

Has nothing to say about same-sex marriage.

4. Inadequate evidence on SS couple parenting

Nothing about same-sex marriage here.

5. Children raised in SS homes experience gender and sexual disorders

A lie, but complete unrelated to same-sex marriage.

6. Vive la difference

How heterosexuals choose to organize themselves in their marriages has
nothing to do with same-sex marriage.

7. Sexual fidelity
One of the biggest threats that SSM poses to marriage is that it would
probably undercut the norm of sexual fidelity in marriage.

Ha, ha, ha. I watch Maury. I know what "fidelity" in heterosexual
marriages means. Sorry, if heterosexual can't maintain their own very low
standards in their own marriages, it won't be the fault of same-sex
marriage.

8. Marriage, procreation, and the fertility implosion

Population is soaring toward 7 billion at an alarming rate. Fear of
"population decline" is utterly irrational.

9. For the sake of the children.

This would differ from numbers 1-4 in what way? In any event, it has
nothing to do with same-sex marriage.

10. Women & marriage domesticate men.

Ha! Gay men are better cooks, better decorators, better housekeepers,
better tailors, better at every single domestic skill that heterosexual
women-and straight women know it, which is why they employ gay chefs, gay
decorators, and gay designers. You lose again.
--
Lars Eighner http://larseighner.com/ http:/myspace.com/larseighner
I do not want the peace which passeth understanding,
I want the understanding which bringeth peace.
- Helen Keller
.
User: "Boy Toy"

Title: Re: Top 10 Scientific Arguments Against Same Sex Marriage 10 Jun 2006 02:22:50 AM
On Sat, 10 Jun 2006 00:35:23 -0500, Lars Eighner
<usenet@larseighner.com> wrote in message
<slrne8kmcs.13vt.usenet@goodwill.io.com>

In our last episode,
<1149906292.404226.242610@u72g2000cwu.googlegroups.com>, the lovely and
talented Sound of Trumpet broadcast on alt.politics.homosexuality:

Top 10 Social Scientific Arguments Against Same Sex Marriage (SSM)
...
8. Marriage, procreation, and the fertility implosion


Population is soaring toward 7 billion at an alarming rate. Fear of
"population decline" is utterly irrational.

This is a classic racist code phrase for "too many goddamned <insert
favorite non-white group here>"

...

.
User: "Lars Eighner"

Title: Re: Top 10 Scientific Arguments Against Same Sex Marriage 10 Jun 2006 02:30:34 AM
In our last episode,
<fisk82t1le082kc7m8m6kn7or35iibh648@4ax.com>,
the lovely and talented Boy Toy
broadcast on alt.politics.homosexuality:

On Sat, 10 Jun 2006 00:35:23 -0500, Lars Eighner
<usenet@larseighner.com> wrote in message
<slrne8kmcs.13vt.usenet@goodwill.io.com>

In our last episode,
<1149906292.404226.242610@u72g2000cwu.googlegroups.com>, the lovely and
talented Sound of Trumpet broadcast on alt.politics.homosexuality:

Top 10 Social Scientific Arguments Against Same Sex Marriage (SSM)
...
8. Marriage, procreation, and the fertility implosion


Population is soaring toward 7 billion at an alarming rate. Fear of
"population decline" is utterly irrational.

This is a classic racist code phrase for "too many goddamned <insert
favorite non-white group here>"

Gosh, do you suppose that homophobia could be intimately and necessarily
connected to racism? Who'd have thunk it!
--
Lars Eighner http://larseighner.com/ http:/myspace.com/larseighner
The best way to support the troops right now
is to take them out of hazard's way. -- U.S. Army Lt. Gen. William Odem (Ret.)
.
User: "Boy Toy"

Title: Re: Top 10 Scientific Arguments Against Same Sex Marriage 10 Jun 2006 10:25:05 AM
On Sat, 10 Jun 2006 02:30:34 -0500, Lars Eighner
<usenet@larseighner.com> wrote in message
<slrne8kt4r.14qr.usenet@goodwill.io.com>

In our last episode,
<fisk82t1le082kc7m8m6kn7or35iibh648@4ax.com>,
the lovely and talented Boy Toy
broadcast on alt.politics.homosexuality:

On Sat, 10 Jun 2006 00:35:23 -0500, Lars Eighner
<usenet@larseighner.com> wrote in message
<slrne8kmcs.13vt.usenet@goodwill.io.com>


In our last episode,
<1149906292.404226.242610@u72g2000cwu.googlegroups.com>, the lovely and
talented Sound of Trumpet broadcast on alt.politics.homosexuality:

Top 10 Social Scientific Arguments Against Same Sex Marriage (SSM)
...
8. Marriage, procreation, and the fertility implosion


Population is soaring toward 7 billion at an alarming rate. Fear of
"population decline" is utterly irrational.


This is a classic racist code phrase for "too many goddamned <insert
favorite non-white group here>"


Gosh, do you suppose that homophobia could be intimately and necessarily
connected to racism? Who'd have thunk it!

Why, sure, one minority is the same as another. Except, of course,
for the fundie minority which doesn't count, or any other minority
group to whom the speaker may belong.
.




User: "Mark K. Bilbo"

Title: Re: Top 10 Scientific Arguments Against Same Sex Marriage 09 Jun 2006 11:04:36 PM
Previously, on alt.atheism, Sound of Trumpet in episode
<1149906292.404226.242610@u72g2000cwu.googlegroups.com>...

Top 10 Social Scientific Arguments Against Same Sex Marriage (SSM)

Translation: Bigotry paraded around as "science."
--
Mark K. Bilbo
--------------------------------------------------
"As hip as it is for outsiders to blame New Orleans
for everything bad that happened during and after
Hurricane Katrina, the truth is that the people
who lived here were much more prepared for a big
storm than the federal government that promised
us flood protection." [Jarvis DeBerry]
http://makeashorterlink.com/?V180525DC
"Everything New Orleans"
http://www.nola.com
.
User: "John Baker"

Title: Re: Top 10 Scientific Arguments Against Same Sex Marriage 10 Jun 2006 02:12:02 AM
On Fri, 09 Jun 2006 23:04:36 -0500, "Mark K. Bilbo"
<alt-atheism@org.webmaster> wrote:

Previously, on alt.atheism, Sound of Trumpet in episode
<1149906292.404226.242610@u72g2000cwu.googlegroups.com>...

Top 10 Social Scientific Arguments Against Same Sex Marriage (SSM)


Translation: Bigotry paraded around as "science."

The right wing's stock in trade.
.


User: ""

Title: Don't use science, idiots: Top 10 Scientific Arguments Against Same Sex Marriage 13 Jun 2006 09:22:37 AM
Science??!! Since when do you idiots use it?
When you abandon the myth of Creation and take on Evolution, come and
discuss science, otherwise KEEP SILENT.
Don't defile knowledge and science with your ignorance, idiots.
Sound of Trumpet wrote:

http://www.religiouscoalitionformarriage.org/html/top_ten.php



Top 10 Social Scientific Arguments Against Same Sex Marriage (SSM)


A large and growing body of social scientific evidence indicates that
the intact, married family is best for children. In particular, see
work by David Popenoe, Linda Waite, Maggie Gallagher, Sara McLanahan,
David Blankenhorn, Paul Amato, and Alan Booth. This statement from Sara
McLahanan, a sociologist at Princeton University, is representative:
"If we were asked to design a system for making sure that
children's basic needs were met, we would probably come up with
something quite similar to the two-parent ideal. Such a design, in
theory, would not only ensure that children had access to the time and
money of two adults, it also would provide a system of checks and
balances that promoted quality parenting. The fact that both parents
have a biological connection to the child would increase the likelihood
that the parents would identify with the child and be willing to
sacrifice for that child, and it would reduce the likelihood that
either parent would abuse the child."
* Sara McLanahan and Gary Sandefur. 1994. Growing Up with a Single
Parent: What Hurts, What Helps. Harvard University Press. p. 38.

1. Children hunger for their biological parents

SS couples using IVF or surrogate mothers deliberately create a class
of children who will live apart from their mother or father. Yale Child
Study Center psychiatrist Kyle Pruett reports that children of IVF
often ask their single or lesbian mothers about their fathers, asking
their mothers questions like the following: "Mommy, what did you do
with my daddy?" "Can I write him a letter?" "Has he ever seen
me?" "Didn't you like him? Didn't he like me?" Elizabeth
Marquardt reports that children of divorce often report similar
feelings about their non-custodial parent, usually the father.
* Kyle Pruett. 2000. Fatherneed. Broadway. p. 204.
* Elizabeth Marquardt. 2004. The Moral and Spiritual Lives of Children
of Divorce. Forthcoming.

2. Children need fathers

If SSM becomes common, most SS couples with children would be lesbians.
This means that we would have yet more children being raised apart from
fathers. Among other things, we know that fathers excel in reducing
antisocial behavior/delinquency in boys and sexual activity in girls.
What is fascinating is that fathers exercise a unique social and
biological influence on their children. For instance, a recent study of
father absence on girls found that girls who grew up apart from their
biological father were much more likely to experience early puberty and
a teen pregnancy than girls who spent their entire childhood in an
intact family. This study, along with David Popenoe's work, suggests
that a father's pheromones influence the biological development of
his daughter, that a strong marriage provides a model for girls of what
to look for in a man, and gives them the confidence to resist the
sexual entreaties of their boyfriends.
* Ellis, Bruce J., Bates, John E., Dodge, Kenneth A., Fergusson, David
M., Horwood, L. John, Pettit, Gregory S., & Woodward, Lianne. Does
Father Absence Place Daughters at Special Risk for Early Sexual
Activity and Teenage Pregnancy?. Child Development, 74, 801-821.
* David Popenoe. 1996. Life Without Father. Harvard.

3. Children need mothers

Although gay men are less likely to have children than lesbians, there
will be and are gay men raising children. There will be even more if
SSM is legalized. These households deny children a mother. Among other
things, mothers excel in providing children with emotional security and
in reading the physical and emotional cues of infants. Obviously, they
also give their daughters unique counsel as they confront the physical,
emotional, and social challenges associated with puberty and
adolescence. Stanford psychologist Eleanor Maccoby summarizes much of
this literature in her book The Two Sexes. See also Steven Rhoads'
book, which comes out in the fall.
* Eleanor Maccoby. 1998. The Two Sexes. Harvard.
* Steven Rhoads. 2004. Taking Sex Differences Seriously. Encounter.

4. Inadequate evidence on SS couple parenting

A number of leading professional associations have asserted that there
are "no effects" of SS couple parenting on children. But the
research in this area is quite preliminary; most of the studies are
done by advocates and most suffer from serious methodological problems.
Sociologist Steven Nock of the University of Virginia, who is agnostic
on SSM, offered this review of the literature on gay parenting as an
expert witness for a Canadian Court considering SSM: "Through this
analysis I draw my conclusions that 1) all of the articles I reviewed
contained at least one fatal flaw of design or execution; and 2) not a
single one of those studies was conducted according to general accepted
standards of scientific research." This is not exactly the kind of
social scientific evidence you would want to launch a major family
experiment.
*Steven Nock. 2001. Affidavit to the Ontario Superior Court of Justice
regarding Hedy Halpern et al. University of Virginia Sociology
Department.


5. Children raised in SS homes experience gender and sexual disorders

Although the evidence on child outcomes is sketchy, the evidence does
suggest that children raised by lesbians or gay men are more likely to
experience gender and sexual disorders. Judith Stacey-an advocate for
SSM and a sociologist-reviewed the literature on child outcomes and
found the following: "lesbian parenting may free daughters and sons
from a broad but uneven range of traditional gender prescriptions."
Her conclusion here is based on studies that show that sons of lesbians
are less masculine and that daughters of lesbians are more masculine.
She also found that a "significantly greater proportion of young
adult children raised by lesbian mothers than those raised by
heterosexual mothers... reported having a homoerotic relationship."
Stacey also observes that children of lesbians are more likely to
report homoerotic attractions. Her review must be view judiciously,
given the methodological flaws detailed by Professor Nock in the
literature as a whole. Nevertheless, theses studies give some credence
to conservative concerns about the effects of SS couple parenting.
*Judith Stacey and Timothy Biblarz. 2001. "(How) Does the Sexual
Orientation of Parents Matter?" American Sociological Review 66:
159-183. See especially pp. 168-171.

6. Vive la difference

If SSM is institutionalized, our society would take yet another step
down the road of de-gendering marriage. There would me more use of
gender-neutral language like "partners" and-more
importantly-more social/cultural pressures to neuter our thinking and
our behaviors in marriage. But marriages typically thrive when spouses
specialize in gender-typical ways and are attentive to the gendered
needs and aspirations of their husband or wife. For instance, women are
happier when their husband earns the lion's share of the household
income. Likewise, couples are less likely to divorce when the wife
concentrates on childrearing and the husband concentrates on
breadwinning, as University of Virginia Psychologist Mavis Hetherington
admits.
* E. Mavis Hetherington & John Kelly. 2002. For Better of For Worse.
Norton. P. 31.
* Steven Rhoads. 2004. Taking Sex Differences Seriously. Encounter.

7. Sexual fidelity

One of the biggest threats that SSM poses to marriage is that it would
probably undercut the norm of sexual fidelity in marriage. In the first
edition of his book in defense of marriage, Virtually Normal, Andrew
Sullivan wrote: "There is more likely to be greater understanding of
the need for extramarital outlets between two men than between a man
and a woman." This line of thinking, of course, were it incorporated
into marriage and telegraphed to the public in sitcoms, magazines, and
other mass media, would do enormous harm to the norm of sexual fidelity
in marriage. One recent study of civil unions and marriages in Vermont
suggests this is a very real concern. More than 79 percent of
heterosexual married men and women, along with lesbians in civil
unions, reported that they strongly valued sexual fidelity. Only about
50 percent of gay men in civil unions valued sexual fidelity.
* Esther Rothblum and Sondra Solomon. 2003. Civil Unions in the State
of Vermont: A Report on the First Year. University of Vermont
Department of Psychology.
* David McWhirter and Andrew Mattison. 1984. The Male Couple. Prentice
Hall. P. 252.

8. Marriage, procreation, and the fertility implosion

Traditionally, marriage and procreation have been tightly connected to
one another. Indeed, from a sociological perspective, the primary
purpose that marriage serves is to secure a mother and father for each
child who is born into a society. Now, however, many Westerners see
marriage in primarily emotional terms. Among other things, the danger
with this mentality is that it fosters an anti-natalist mindset that
fuels population decline, which in turn puts tremendous social,
political, and economic strains on the larger society. SSM would only
further undercut the procreative norm long associated with marriage
insofar as it establishes that there is no necessary link between
procreation and marriage. This was spelled out in the Goodridge
decision in Massachusetts, where the majority opinion dismissed the
procreative meaning of marriage. It is no accident that the countries
that have legalized or are considering legalizing SSM have some of the
lowest fertility rates in the world. For instance, the Netherlands,
Sweden, and Canada have birthrates that hover around 1.6 children per
woman-well below the replacement fertility rate of 2.1.
* For national fertility rates
* For the growing disconnect between marriage and procreation

9. For the sake of the children.

The divorce and sexual revolutions of the last four decades has
seriously undercut the norm that couples should get and stay married if
they intend to have children, are expecting a child, or already have
children. Political scientist James Q. Wilson reports that the
introduction of no-fault divorce further destabilized marriage by
weakening the legal and cultural meaning of the marriage contract.
George Akerlof, a Nobel laureate and an economist, found that the
widespread availability of contraception and abortion in the 1960s and
1970s, and the sexual revolution they enabled, made it easier for men
to abandon women they got pregnant, since they could always blame their
girlfriends for not using contraception or procuring an abortion. It is
plausible to suspect that SSM would have similar consequences for
marriage, that is, it would further destabilize the norm that adults
should sacrifice to get and stay married for the sake of their
children. Why? SSM would institutionalize the idea that children do not
need both their mother and their father. This would be particularly
important for men, who are more likely to abandon their children. SSM
would make it even easier than it already is for men to rationalize
their abandonment of their children. After all, they could tell
themselves, our society, which affirms lesbian couples raising
children, believes that children do not need a father. So, they might
tell themselves, I do not need to marry or stay married to the mother
of my children.
* James Q. Wilson. 2002. The Marriage Problem. Basic. PP. 175-177.
* George A. Akerlof, Janet L. Yellen, and Michael L. Katz. 1996. "An
Analysis of Out-of-Wedlock Childbearing in the United States."
Quarterly Journal of Economics CXI: 277-317.

10. Women & marriage domesticate men.

Men who are married earn more, work harder, drink less, live longer,
spend more time attending religious services, and are more sexually
faithful. They also see their testosterone levels drop, especially when
they have children in the home. If the distinctive sexual patterns of
"committed" gay couples are any indication (see above), it is
unlikely that SSM would domesticate men in the way that heterosexual
marriage does. It is also extremely unlikely that the biological
effects of heterosexual marriage on men would also be found in SSM.
Thus, gay activists like Andrew Sullivan who argue that gay marriage
will domesticate gay men are-in all likelihood-clinging to a
foolish hope. This foolish hope does not justify yet another effort to
meddle with marriage.
* Steve Nock. 1998. Marriage in Men's Lives. Oxford.
* Institute for American Values. 2003. Hardwired to Connect. P. 17.

.

User: "Budikka666"

Title: Re: Top 10 Scientific Arguments Against Same Sex Marriage 09 Jun 2006 09:37:23 PM
Sound of Farting Lied:

http://www.religiouscoalitionformarriage.org/html/top_ten.php
Top 10 Social Scientific Arguments Against Same Sex Marriage (SSM)

A large and growing body of social scientific evidence indicates that
the intact, married family is best for children. In particular, see
work by David Popenoe, Linda Waite, Maggie Gallagher, Sara McLanahan,
David Blankenhorn, Paul Amato, and Alan Booth. This statement from Sara
McLahanan, a sociologist at Princeton University, is representative:
"If we were asked to design a system for making sure that
children's basic needs were met, we would probably come up with
something quite similar to the two-parent ideal. Such a design, in
theory, would not only ensure that children had access to the time and
money of two adults, it also would provide a system of checks and
balances that promoted quality parenting. The fact that both parents
have a biological connection to the child would increase the likelihood
that the parents would identify with the child and be willing to
sacrifice for that child, and it would reduce the likelihood that
either parent would abuse the child."
* Sara McLanahan and Gary Sandefur. 1994. Growing Up with a Single
Parent: What Hurts, What Helps. Harvard University Press. p. 38.

Nope, not a thing there about homosexual parents being bad for
children, only that two parents are best, and that the parents need to
love the child. In short, any two parents of any gender, nationality,
religious belief or lack of it, are best for a child as long as they
lvoe the child and have its best interests at heart.
So, once again, Sound of Trumpet has proven himself to be the most
vacuous and pathetic liattle liar on the Internet. No surprises there.

1. Children hunger for their biological parents

Lie. Children hunger for love and attantion. It really is that
simple. The last thing they need is a vacuous and pathetic liattle
liar like Sound of Trumpet

SS couples using IVF or surrogate mothers deliberately create a class
of children who will live apart from their mother or father.

Lie.

Yale Child
Study Center psychiatrist Kyle Pruett reports that children of IVF
often ask their single or lesbian mothers about their fathers, asking
their mothers questions like the following: "Mommy, what did you do
with my daddy?" "Can I write him a letter?" "Has he ever seen
me?" "Didn't you like him? Didn't he like me?" Elizabeth
Marquardt reports that children of divorce often report similar
feelings about their non-custodial parent, usually the father.
* Kyle Pruett. 2000. Fatherneed. Broadway. p. 204.
* Elizabeth Marquardt. 2004. The Moral and Spiritual Lives of Children
of Divorce. Forthcoming.

Is this the same Kyle Pruett who reports that hatred-filled bigots and
homophobes distort his position to further their evil ends?
http://www.yaleherald.com/article.php?Article=3783

2. Children need fathers

If SSM becomes common, most SS couples with children would be lesbians.

And your support for this claim is? Nowhere as usual. You either
offer not a shred of support for your lies, or you lie about the
support for your lies. Either way it's about as pathetic as you can
get for someone claiming to be a Christian.
Rest of your ***** and hate-spreading lies flushed where they
belong.
Budikka
.
User: ""

Title: Re: Top 10 Scientific Arguments Against Same Sex Marriage 12 Jun 2006 02:03:36 PM
Budikka666 wrote:


Nope, not a thing there about homosexual parents being bad for
children, only that two parents are best, and that the parents need to
love the child. In short, any two parents of any gender, nationality,
religious belief or lack of it, are best for a child as long as they
lvoe the child and have its best interests at heart.

What a moronic, pathetic paragraph (btw, children aren't "its").
Comes from the same kind of mental case who'd call *itself*
Budikka666. No child needs some queer pairing pretending
to be parents. Queer relationships are typically unstable, unnatural,
and would subject the child to ridicule, feelings of isolation and
confusion.
No matter how much you small, but loud, Sodom and Gomorrhate
critters try to play pretend, your value system, beliefs and lifestyles
are squarely in the gutter, and that's the only place they will ever
be.
Queers should be banned from raising children.
BTW, what is your definition of "its best interests at heart," raising
the kid to be the same kind of mental case misfit you are? Wonderful,
more cockroaches.
--
Cliff
.
User: "Boy Toy"

Title: Re: Top 10 Scientific Arguments Against Same Sex Marriage 12 Jun 2006 02:21:46 PM
On 12 Jun 2006 12:03:36 -0700,
wrote in
message <1150139016.014581.312240@c74g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>


Budikka666 wrote:


Nope, not a thing there about homosexual parents being bad for
children, only that two parents are best, and that the parents need to
love the child. In short, any two parents of any gender, nationality,
religious belief or lack of it, are best for a child as long as they
lvoe the child and have its best interests at heart.


What a moronic, pathetic paragraph (btw, children aren't "its").
Comes from the same kind of mental case who'd call *itself*
Budikka666. No child needs some queer pairing pretending
to be parents. Queer relationships are typically unstable, unnatural,
and would subject the child to ridicule, feelings of isolation and
confusion.
No matter how much you small, but loud, Sodom and Gomorrhate
critters try to play pretend, your value system, beliefs and lifestyles
are squarely in the gutter, and that's the only place they will ever
be.
Queers should be banned from raising children.

BTW, what is your definition of "its best interests at heart," raising
the kid to be the same kind of mental case misfit you are? Wonderful,
more cockroaches.

Notwithstanding your vitriolic ad hominem, all of your assertions are
false, and here is the proof (from the U.S. Department of Health and
Human Services.) Not that you will read it of course.
http://naic.acf.hhs.gov/pubs/f_gay/f_gayb.cfm
Gay and Lesbian Adoptive Parents: Resources for Professionals and
Parents
Author(s): National Adoption Information Clearinghouse (DHHS)
Year Published: 2000
Issues and Concerns
"Children will be molested by homosexual parents."
There is no legitimate scientific research connecting homosexuality
and pedophilia. Sexual orientation (homosexual or heterosexual) is
defined as an adult attraction to other adults. Pedophilia is defined
as an adult sexual attraction or perversion to children.7"seven" In a
study of 269 cases of child sex abuse, only two offenders where found
to be gay or lesbian. More relevant was the finding that of the cases
involving molestation of a boy by a man, seventy-four percent of the
men were or had been in a heterosexual relationship with the boys
mother or another female relative. The conclusion was found that "a
child's risk of being molested by his or her relative's heterosexual
partner is over one hundred times greater than by someone who might be
identifiable as being homosexual." 8"
"Children will be teased and harassed."
Children of gay men and lesbians are vulnerable to teasing and
harassment, particularly as they approach adolescence, when any sign
of difference is grounds for exclusion. How much of a problem is it?
Is it likely to cause lasting psychological damage? Gay and lesbian
parents are well aware of the difficulties that a child may face -
many have dealt with prejudice all of their lives. Most see it as an
opportunity for ongoing discussion that will help their children grow
as people.
Abby Ruder, a therapist, lesbian, and adoptive mother, acknowledges
that children will be teased, and takes great pains to prepare her gay
and lesbian clients for some of the problems that their children will
face. She feels that families should have a plan for dealing with
society's attitude toward them. "Children with gay or lesbian parents
need to be taught when it's okay to tell people and when not to. A
family doesn't have to be 'out' all of the time. My 9-year-old … has
become very adept at knowing when to tell people that she has two
mommies."
Wendell Ricketts and Roberta Achtenberg, in the article "Adoption and
Foster Parenting for Lesbians and Gay Men: Creating New Traditions in
Family" from Homosexuality and Family Relations, address social
workers grappling with the issue by asking, "...should children be
sheltered from every experience in which their difference might
challenge prejudice, ignorance, or the status quo (or in which they
would be 'exposed' to the difference of others)? Agencies conforming
to such a standard must ask themselves whether it is their function to
honor the system that generates stigma by upholding its constraints."
They continue, "Teasing is what children do. Does this mean that child
welfare policy must be set at a level no higher than the social
interactions of children?"
In custody cases involving a gay or lesbian parent, courts have
considered the fact that a child might be teased as contrary to the
best interests of the child. They argue that the stigma attached to
having a gay or lesbian parent will damage a child's self-esteem. This
has been refuted in many studies. Research has found that although
children of gays and lesbians do report experiencing teasing because
of their parent(s), their self-esteem levels are no lower than those
of children of heterosexual parents. 9
In 1984 the Supreme Court heard a case, Palmore v Sidoti, in which a
Florida man sought custody of his daughter on the grounds that his
white ex-wife was now married to a black man and that this would
expose his daughter to the stigma of living in an interracial family.
The Court ruled that the girl should stay with her mother, saying that
under the Equal Protection Clause of the Fourteenth Amendment,
"private biases may be outside the reach of the law, but the law
cannot, directly or indirectly, give them effect". Although the
Court's ruling dealt specifically with racial prejudices, several
researchers have mentioned the case as a rebuttal to the argument that
placing a child in a family subject to social stigma is automatically
contrary to the child's best interests. 10
Nonetheless, social workers and even some gay men and lesbians
considering adoption wonder if it is in the best interest of a child
to be raised by homosexual parents. "It can be too hard a transition
for some children, especially those who are older and have already
formed preconceived notions about homosexuality," explains therapist
Ruder. "Younger children usually have an easier time adjusting to a
gay and lesbian parented home. They haven't learned the societal
biases against gays and lesbians yet." When a gay person is being
considered as a potential adoptive parent for an older child, the
child should be told about the person's sexual orientation and asked
his feelings about it. If the child is comfortable with the
information, the caseworker can proceed to the next step.
Gay and lesbian adoptive parents must also think about how they will
explain to younger children, in age-appropriate language, not only how
and why the child was adopted but also about the parents' sexual
orientation. Both are complex subjects that should be addressed a
number of times as the child grows and matures, each time adding new
information as the child asks and is able to absorb and understand
more. Then both topics become accepted facts of family life.
"Children raised in homosexual households will become gay."
The bulk of evidence to date indicates that children raised by gay and
lesbian parents are no more likely to become homosexual than children
raised by heterosexuals. As one researcher put it, "If heterosexual
parenting is insufficient to ensure that children will also be
heterosexual, then there is no reason to conclude that children of
homosexuals also will be gay". 11
Studies asking the children of gay fathers to express their sexual
orientation showed the majority of children to be heterosexual, with
the proportion of gay offspring similar to that of a random sample of
the population. An assessment of more than 300 children born to gay or
lesbian parents in 12 different samples shows no evidence of
"significant disturbances of any kind in the development of sexual
identity among these individuals". 12
"Children will develop problems growing up in an 'unnatural'
lifestyle."
Courts have expressed concern that children raised by gay and lesbian
parents may have difficulties with their personal and psychological
development, self-esteem, and social and peer relationships. Because
of this concern, researchers have focused on children's development in
gay and lesbian families.
The studies conclude that children of gay or lesbian parents are no
different than their counterparts raised by heterosexual parents. In
"Children of Lesbian and Gay Parents," a 1992 article in Child
Development, Charlotte Patterson states, "Despite dire predictions
about children based on well-known theories of psychosocial
development, and despite the accumulation of a substantial body of
research investigating these issues, not a single study has found
children of gay or lesbian parents to be disadvantaged in any
significant respect relative to children of heterosexual parents."
Psychiatrist Laurintine Fromm, of the Institute of Pennsylvania
Hospital, agrees with that finding. "[The] literature...does not
indicate that these children fare any worse [than those of
heterosexual parents] in any area of psychological development or
sexual identity formation. A parent's capacity to be respectful and
supportive of the child's autonomy and to maintain her own intimate
attachments, far outweighs the influence of the parent's sexual
orientation alone."
Factsheet revised April 2000.
Endnotes
5 Blommer, S.J. (undated). Answers to Your Questions About Sexual
Orientation and Homosexuality: A Fact Sheet. Washington, DC. American
Psychological Association.
6 Blommer, S.J.
7 Lesbian and Gay Rights Project - ACLU. (1999). ACLU Fact Sheet -
Overview of Lesbian and Gay Parenting, Adoption and Foster Care. New
York, NY: American Civil Liberties Union.
8 Carole, J. Are Children at Risk for Sexual Abuse by Homosexuals?
(1994). Pediatrics, 94 (1):
9 Huggins, S.L. A Comparative Study of Self-Esteem of Adolescent
Children of Divorced Lesbian Mothers and Divorced Heterosexual
Mothers. (1989). Journal of Homosexuality, 18 (1/2): 123-135.
10 Adams, W. E. Whose Family Is It Anyway? The Continuing Struggle for
Lesbians and Gay Men Seeking to Adopt Children. (1996). New England
Law Review, 30 (3): 579-621.
11 Bigner, J. J., Bozett, F. W. 1990. Parenting by Gay Fathers. In:
Homosexuality and Family Relations. Bozett, F. W., Sussman, M. B. New
York, NY: Haworth Press, Inc.
12 Patterson, C. J. Children of Lesbian and Gay Parents. (1992). Child
Development: 1025-1039.
This material may be freely reproduced and distributed. However, when
doing so, please credit the National Adoption Information
Clearinghouse. See our copyright
information"../../admin/copyright.cfm".
.
User: "Strife767"

Title: Re: Top 10 Scientific Arguments Against Same Sex Marriage 12 Jun 2006 02:40:27 PM
On Mon, 12 Jun 2006 13:21:46 -0600, Boy Toy <BoyToy@Toyz4Boyz.com> wrote:

On 12 Jun 2006 12:03:36 -0700,

wrote in
message <1150139016.014581.312240@c74g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>


Budikka666 wrote:


Nope, not a thing there about homosexual parents being bad for
children, only that two parents are best, and that the parents need to
love the child. In short, any two parents of any gender, nationality,
religious belief or lack of it, are best for a child as long as they
lvoe the child and have its best interests at heart.


What a moronic, pathetic paragraph (btw, children aren't "its").
Comes from the same kind of mental case who'd call *itself*
Budikka666. No child needs some queer pairing pretending
to be parents. Queer relationships are typically unstable, unnatural,
and would subject the child to ridicule, feelings of isolation and
confusion.
No matter how much you small, but loud, Sodom and Gomorrhate
critters try to play pretend, your value system, beliefs and lifestyles
are squarely in the gutter, and that's the only place they will ever
be.
Queers should be banned from raising children.

BTW, what is your definition of "its best interests at heart," raising
the kid to be the same kind of mental case misfit you are? Wonderful,
more cockroaches.


Notwithstanding your vitriolic ad hominem, all of your assertions are
false, and here is the proof (from the U.S. Department of Health and
Human Services.) Not that you will read it of course.

http://naic.acf.hhs.gov/pubs/f_gay/f_gayb.cfm

Thanks a lot for the resource. :)
.
User: "Dysperdis"

Title: Re: Top 10 Scientific Arguments Against Same Sex Marriage 12 Jun 2006 04:34:57 PM
"Strife767" <strife767@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:pkgr825o81vl5vo4ll7tl86c0s3fvh72kr@4ax.com...

On Mon, 12 Jun 2006 13:21:46 -0600, Boy Toy <BoyToy@Toyz4Boyz.com> wrote:

On 12 Jun 2006 12:03:36 -0700,

wrote in
message <1150139016.014581.312240@c74g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>


Budikka666 wrote:


Nope, not a thing there about homosexual parents being bad for
children, only that two parents are best, and that the parents need to
love the child. In short, any two parents of any gender, nationality,
religious belief or lack of it, are best for a child as long as they
lvoe the child and have its best interests at heart.


What a moronic, pathetic paragraph (btw, children aren't "its").
Comes from the same kind of mental case who'd call *itself*
Budikka666. No child needs some queer pairing pretending
to be parents. Queer relationships are typically unstable, unnatural,
and would subject the child to ridicule, feelings of isolation and
confusion.
No matter how much you small, but loud, Sodom and Gomorrhate
critters try to play pretend, your value system, beliefs and lifestyles
are squarely in the gutter, and that's the only place they will ever
be.
Queers should be banned from raising children.

BTW, what is your definition of "its best interests at heart," raising
the kid to be the same kind of mental case misfit you are? Wonderful,
more cockroaches.


Notwithstanding your vitriolic ad hominem, all of your assertions are
false, and here is the proof (from the U.S. Department of Health and
Human Services.) Not that you will read it of course.

http://naic.acf.hhs.gov/pubs/f_gay/f_gayb.cfm


Thanks a lot for the resource. :)

Here, have a couple more:
http://www.webmd.com/content/Article/113/110762.htm
"Study: Same-Sex Parents Raise Well-Adjusted Kids"
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/local/daily/june99/gays14.htm
"Gay Parents Find More Acceptance"
http://www.apa.org/pi/parent.html
Lesbian and Gay Parenting
.
User: "Strife767"

Title: Re: Top 10 Scientific Arguments Against Same Sex Marriage 12 Jun 2006 04:48:20 PM
On Mon, 12 Jun 2006 21:34:57 GMT, "Dysperdis" <dysperdis@gmail.com> wrote:


"Strife767" <strife767@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:pkgr825o81vl5vo4ll7tl86c0s3fvh72kr@4ax.com...

On Mon, 12 Jun 2006 13:21:46 -0600, Boy Toy <BoyToy@Toyz4Boyz.com> wrote:

On 12 Jun 2006 12:03:36 -0700,

wrote in
message <1150139016.014581.312240@c74g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>


Budikka666 wrote:


Nope, not a thing there about homosexual parents being bad for
children, only that two parents are best, and that the parents need to
love the child. In short, any two parents of any gender, nationality,
religious belief or lack of it, are best for a child as long as they
lvoe the child and have its best interests at heart.


What a moronic, pathetic paragraph (btw, children aren't "its").
Comes from the same kind of mental case who'd call *itself*
Budikka666. No child needs some queer pairing pretending
to be parents. Queer relationships are typically unstable, unnatural,
and would subject the child to ridicule, feelings of isolation and
confusion.
No matter how much you small, but loud, Sodom and Gomorrhate
critters try to play pretend, your value system, beliefs and lifestyles
are squarely in the gutter, and that's the only place they will ever
be.
Queers should be banned from raising children.

BTW, what is your definition of "its best interests at heart," raising
the kid to be the same kind of mental case misfit you are? Wonderful,
more cockroaches.


Notwithstanding your vitriolic ad hominem, all of your assertions are
false, and here is the proof (from the U.S. Department of Health and
Human Services.) Not that you will read it of course.

http://naic.acf.hhs.gov/pubs/f_gay/f_gayb.cfm


Thanks a lot for the resource. :)


Here, have a couple more:
http://www.webmd.com/content/Article/113/110762.htm
"Study: Same-Sex Parents Raise Well-Adjusted Kids"

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/local/daily/june99/gays14.htm
"Gay Parents Find More Acceptance"

This is probably the only one I wouldn't use myself, simply because it
doesn't provide any actual evidence--instead showing a rise in acceptance.


http://www.apa.org/pi/parent.html
Lesbian and Gay Parenting

Still, thanks a lot. :)
.
User: "Dysperdis"

Title: Re: Top 10 Scientific Arguments Against Same Sex Marriage 12 Jun 2006 06:30:45 PM
"Strife767" <strife767@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:p2or82pjjkm4pi8ka7so3dcmtjrd57t0q4@4ax.com...

On Mon, 12 Jun 2006 21:34:57 GMT, "Dysperdis" <dysperdis@gmail.com> wrote:


"Strife767" <strife767@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:pkgr825o81vl5vo4ll7tl86c0s3fvh72kr@4ax.com...

On Mon, 12 Jun 2006 13:21:46 -0600, Boy Toy <BoyToy@Toyz4Boyz.com>
wrote:

On 12 Jun 2006 12:03:36 -0700,

wrote in
message <1150139016.014581.312240@c74g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>


Budikka666 wrote:


Nope, not a thing there about homosexual parents being bad for
children, only that two parents are best, and that the parents need
to
love the child. In short, any two parents of any gender,
nationality,
religious belief or lack of it, are best for a child as long as they
lvoe the child and have its best interests at heart.


What a moronic, pathetic paragraph (btw, children aren't "its").
Comes from the same kind of mental case who'd call *itself*
Budikka666. No child needs some queer pairing pretending
to be parents. Queer relationships are typically unstable, unnatural,
and would subject the child to ridicule, feelings of isolation and
confusion.
No matter how much you small, but loud, Sodom and Gomorrhate
critters try to play pretend, your value system, beliefs and lifestyles
are squarely in the gutter, and that's the only place they will ever
be.
Queers should be banned from raising children.

BTW, what is your definition of "its best interests at heart," raising
the kid to be the same kind of mental case misfit you are? Wonderful,
more cockroaches.


Notwithstanding your vitriolic ad hominem, all of your assertions are
false, and here is the proof (from the U.S. Department of Health and
Human Services.) Not that you will read it of course.

http://naic.acf.hhs.gov/pubs/f_gay/f_gayb.cfm


Thanks a lot for the resource. :)


Here, have a couple more:
http://www.webmd.com/content/Article/113/110762.htm
"Study: Same-Sex Parents Raise Well-Adjusted Kids"

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/local/daily/june99/gays14.htm
"Gay Parents Find More Acceptance"


This is probably the only one I wouldn't use myself, simply because it
doesn't provide any actual evidence--instead showing a rise in acceptance.

It's potentially useful against the "everyone hates gays" statements made by
our resident trolls, which is the only reason I included it.
Not that they really matter, but they can be amusing when they're cornered.



http://www.apa.org/pi/parent.html
Lesbian and Gay Parenting


Still, thanks a lot. :)

.
User: "Strife767"

Title: Re: Top 10 Scientific Arguments Against Same Sex Marriage 12 Jun 2006 10:20:02 PM
On Mon, 12 Jun 2006 23:30:45 GMT, "Dysperdis" <dysperdis@gmail.com> wrote:


"Strife767" <strife767@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:p2or82pjjkm4pi8ka7so3dcmtjrd57t0q4@4ax.com...

On Mon, 12 Jun 2006 21:34:57 GMT, "Dysperdis" <dysperdis@gmail.com> wrote:


"Strife767" <strife767@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:pkgr825o81vl5vo4ll7tl86c0s3fvh72kr@4ax.com...

On Mon, 12 Jun 2006 13:21:46 -0600, Boy Toy <BoyToy@Toyz4Boyz.com>
wrote:

On 12 Jun 2006 12:03:36 -0700,

wrote in
message <1150139016.014581.312240@c74g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>


Budikka666 wrote:


Nope, not a thing there about homosexual parents being bad for
children, only that two parents are best, and that the parents need
to
love the child. In short, any two parents of any gender,
nationality,
religious belief or lack of it, are best for a child as long as they
lvoe the child and have its best interests at heart.


What a moronic, pathetic paragraph (btw, children aren't "its").
Comes from the same kind of mental case who'd call *itself*
Budikka666. No child needs some queer pairing pretending
to be parents. Queer relationships are typically unstable, unnatural,
and would subject the child to ridicule, feelings of isolation and
confusion.
No matter how much you small, but loud, Sodom and Gomorrhate
critters try to play pretend, your value system, beliefs and lifestyles
are squarely in the gutter, and that's the only place they will ever
be.
Queers should be banned from raising children.

BTW, what is your definition of "its best interests at heart," raising
the kid to be the same kind of mental case misfit you are? Wonderful,
more cockroaches.


Notwithstanding your vitriolic ad hominem, all of your assertions are
false, and here is the proof (from the U.S. Department of Health and
Human Services.) Not that you will read it of course.

http://naic.acf.hhs.gov/pubs/f_gay/f_gayb.cfm


Thanks a lot for the resource. :)


Here, have a couple more:
http://www.webmd.com/content/Article/113/110762.htm
"Study: Same-Sex Parents Raise Well-Adjusted Kids"

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/local/daily/june99/gays14.htm
"Gay Parents Find More Acceptance"


This is probably the only one I wouldn't use myself, simply because it
doesn't provide any actual evidence--instead showing a rise in acceptance.


It's potentially useful against the "everyone hates gays" statements made by
our resident trolls, which is the only reason I included it.

Good point. Noted.
.
User: "Brother Bretts"

Title: Re: Top 10 Scientific Arguments Against Same Sex Marriage 12 Jun 2006 10:25:41 PM
On Tue, 13 Jun 2006 03:20:02 GMT, Strife767 <strife767@gmail.com>
wrote:

On Mon, 12 Jun 2006 23:30:45 GMT, "Dysperdis" <dysperdis@gmail.com> wrote:


"Strife767" <strife767@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:p2or82pjjkm4pi8ka7so3dcmtjrd57t0q4@4ax.com...

On Mon, 12 Jun 2006 21:34:57 GMT, "Dysperdis" <dysperdis@gmail.com> wrote:


"Strife767" <strife767@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:pkgr825o81vl5vo4ll7tl86c0s3fvh72kr@4ax.com...

On Mon, 12 Jun 2006 13:21:46 -0600, Boy Toy <BoyToy@Toyz4Boyz.com>
wrote:

On 12 Jun 2006 12:03:36 -0700,

wrote in
message <1150139016.014581.312240@c74g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>


Budikka666 wrote:


Nope, not a thing there about homosexual parents being bad for
children, only that two parents are best, and that the parents need
to
love the child. In short, any two parents of any gender,
nationality,
religious belief or lack of it, are best for a child as long as they
lvoe the child and have its best interests at heart.


What a moronic, pathetic paragraph (btw, children aren't "its").
Comes from the same kind of mental case who'd call *itself*
Budikka666. No child needs some queer pairing pretending
to be parents. Queer relationships are typically unstable, unnatural,
and would subject the child to ridicule, feelings of isolation and
confusion.
No matter how